Latest / Coaches Rising / 281 - Elena Tochilina, Vytautas Buciunas & Dana Carmen: Lessons From a Country at War

Transcript

281 - Elena Tochilina, Vytautas Buciunas & Dana Carmen: Lessons From a Country at War · Coaches Rising

0:00
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
0:19
[SPEAKER_02]: welcome back.
0:20
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the coach's rising podcast.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And this was a very moving and deeply inspiring conversation.
0:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm joined today by Elena Toklina and Vita Sbichunas and Dana Carmen.
0:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Elena and Vita are both live in the Ukraine and they're both coaches and Dana is friends with them both and has been visiting them both in the Ukraine several times recently in the recent years and
0:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So what we're going to impact today, I think, has just so many lessons for all of us, because we're going to hear the incredible story, the incredible resilience and creativity of the Ukrainian people as they respond to what's happening.
1:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's some very powerful lessons.
1:04
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to explore...
1:06
[SPEAKER_02]: for Elena and Vita's in particular, you know, what really stuck from their all the spiritual practice they've been doing.
1:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when the rubber meets the road and we face crisis, what really mattered and we will explore what kind of coaching is still happening in the Ukraine.
1:21
[SPEAKER_02]: How has it changed Elena and Vita's view on what kind of coaching matters in our times?
1:28
[SPEAKER_02]: and what kind of practices really count and you'll hear some incredible stories of how the Ukrainian people and Elena and Vita have responded and the insights of Dana has he's been out there to visit these these extraordinary people and I think for me whilst few of us are living through conditions as extremist war we are entering a world now which has
1:55
[SPEAKER_02]: has great instability and nervous system strain and uncertainty and so it's it was deeply inspiring to me to hear of how people have responded and the gratitude and the inspiration and the happiness that's and the deep meaning that is a risen
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: in response to the conditions they're facing.
2:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this lessons for us all.
2:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a few more words about the guests.
2:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So Elena is a coach bridging developmental somatic and leadership work.
2:25
[SPEAKER_02]: She works also with cultivating leadership and Vitas is an integral master coach working with leaders inside the Ukraine.
2:34
[SPEAKER_02]: coaching and doing organizational development, Dana Carmen has been a guest on the podcast.
2:40
[SPEAKER_02]: A couple of times he is senior leadership coach doing deep leadership transformation and organizational development with organizations around the globe.
2:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's dive in, let's get to the conversation that really matters now.
2:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Enjoy.
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so Elena, Vitas and Dana, I'm really delighted to be joined by E3 and very, I mean excited is maybe not the right word, but moved for the conversation we can have and Vitas and Elena, you both live in Ukraine and you work as coaches as well and you know Dana and we're gonna talk about how you know Dana.
3:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So in our conversation today,
3:25
[SPEAKER_02]: What life is like in Ukraine and how, what the experience is like for you personally, like how if you grown, what do you notice saying?
3:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I was very moved, Vitas, to listen to you speak in a deep transformation podcast about some of the things you're experiencing.
3:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but first of all, maybe,
3:45
[SPEAKER_02]: We could just invite each of you to say a few words about who you are and what you do and we'll just move around Elena.
3:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you go first and then Vita's in Endana?
3:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Joel.
3:58
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd delighted to be here with all of you.
4:01
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not the first time I speak about your crane but in this context but it's the first time I'm since 2020 or so also
4:13
[SPEAKER_04]: on the tip of my toes, like how this conversation will evolve.
4:18
[SPEAKER_04]: I am a coach and a consultant.
4:22
[SPEAKER_04]: I work with organizations in their development, and I'm also a facilitator, and a somatic coach, so I combine all of those realities, and part of my work is also aimed at adult development through
4:40
[SPEAKER_04]: Scandinavian building, it's a model which helps to create true democratic and creative societies like Denmark or Sweden, and we have an NGO here in Ukraine, which is helping this concept to take groups in Ukraine.
4:59
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm also part of a global community, a culture called
5:06
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a company which is focusing on complexity and development.
5:12
[SPEAKER_04]: That's me.
5:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, thank you.
5:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Joel for creating this space.
5:19
[SPEAKER_06]: Very much it allows you to be here and thank you Dana for initiating this call.
5:24
[SPEAKER_06]: My name is Vitas.
5:26
[SPEAKER_06]: This is a short version of my name.
5:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Professionally, I'm a leadership development consultant facilitator.
5:34
[SPEAKER_06]: I have my own practice, and in terms of my coaching, I then did an integral master coach
5:45
[SPEAKER_06]: And I've worked in this field professionally, I mean, focused as a coach for the last nine years, before that I spent 20 years in banking on nobody's perfect.
6:00
[SPEAKER_06]: And most of that I was in many
6:14
[SPEAKER_06]: By birth, I'm a Lithuanian, so I'm coming from a small Baltic country, not far from here, but by choice I'm Ukrainian and half my family is Ukrainian, my wife and our younger son is Ukrainian, so this is kind of my double identity and this
6:35
[SPEAKER_06]: second Ukrainian identity at the moment or even during the last years is more important and hopefully we will unpack this during our conversation and I live in Ukraine for the last 11 years.
6:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dana Carmen.
6:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an American living in Ireland for the last three years.
6:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm some of you who know me who've seen me on the program.
7:06
[SPEAKER_00]: My face is a little crooked right now.
7:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in the process of I just had a tumor removed and I'm going through radiation treatments.
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So my face is a little strange for those who see this on video.
7:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And professionally, if I were to give you the simple version, I would say I'm a thriving and complexity coach and facilitator.
7:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm grounded.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: the work that I do is embodied its individual and collective.
7:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It brings clients into the natural world to discover their deeper nature and its trauma informed.
7:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been doing this for a long time and have also done a lot of development of coaches.
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I can say more about my relationship
8:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I think that is a good place to start, because yeah, how come you know Elena and Vita's dinner?
8:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Vita's wife, Cartier.
8:22
[SPEAKER_00]: came to a program at the Institute of Coaching in St. Peter'sburg in 2010 that Jesse McKay and I, Jesse McKay and I came when to Russia a dozen times between 2010 and 2019 or 2020.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And Kachia was in the first program and about a year later, it must in 2011, Vitas,
8:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I, with instituted coaching, I brought a group of Ukrainians, Lithuanians, and Russians, coaches on an integral journey to the US.
9:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And we did all kinds of wild and fun things.
9:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I met Zitas.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing we did was shadow work together in the canyons of New Mexico.
9:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And he wasn't very open to it to be honest.
9:16
[SPEAKER_00]: He got more open over the years.
9:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, as you tell, St. Scott, you became dear friends.
9:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I visited them right after the May Dawn Revolution and key in their home and key in 2015.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess they had just gotten there.
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: The, the, that's just moved there very recently.
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very moved to be there.
9:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've just stayed in close touch, and last year I did a pro, well, last year I stayed with them again with a group called a merge who came to Ukraine to see the world through the eyes of Ukrainian eyes and being in a time of war.
10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And Elena and I, and Zitas, but Elena and I,
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: and a, and a, and a Lithuanian woman named Irina.
10:14
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you pronounce Irina's last name?
10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll split it with you.
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are two, two, two, two certain names.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, Irina and Irina and I led a program together.
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: in Lithuania for Ukrainian leaders.
10:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So we went away and Zeta's was generous enough to be a participant in the program.
10:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But he also was really there kind of holding the space while he was going through it himself.
10:49
[SPEAKER_00]: The three of us in a rain, we drove two days.
10:53
[SPEAKER_00]: to key of after the program.
10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But we did our program was a nature-based trauma-informed retreat to hold a deep healing space.
11:09
[SPEAKER_00]: in a time of war so that people's nervous systems could co-regulate that the frozen energy that was stuck from these leaders holding other people that they could be held, and it was a very moving experience, and then going there and spending time.
11:30
[SPEAKER_00]: with each of us in Kachan and Dana and others in Keeve while bombs were, you know, were where and drones were falling.
11:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Was very life transforming to me.
11:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I left that experience and I left out of my relationships with the people with Ukrainians.
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I left feeling deeply Ukrainian.
11:58
[SPEAKER_00]: and my grandparents are Ukrainian and Lithuanian, but as a citizen in the world, though the very first thing every morning is I look to see what happened in Ukraine and I look to, and I pray and I'm inspired and I look to see what I can do to support those who are supporting the freedom of Europe and the rest of the world, the rest of the democratic world.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for your support data.
12:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
12:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We might kind of zoom into some of the things you mentioned there, Dana, bit later in our conversation, but I'd love to Elena and Vita has come back to you both and before we explore, you know, how what's unfolding in Ukraine may be impacting you and others around you in terms of, you know, while we explore often in this podcast how we grow and transform.
12:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just wondering if you could say,
12:58
[SPEAKER_02]: something about what life is like in the Ukraine at the moment like what do you what's it like and how are people being in that?
13:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I'd actually, I'm looking through the window and it's a sunny day and it's plus 14 degrees Celsius, which is, you know, a real spring and it's, it's so important for us and this is probably the first time in my 50 years that I experience spring, so as such a powerful event in my life.
13:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Because we went through this winter, and that was a literally survival winter.
13:42
[SPEAKER_06]: It was an existential survival, because the Putin was bombing our electricity, electricity, generating plants and all utilities and infrastructure just to freeze people here.
13:59
[SPEAKER_06]: and we went through that.
14:01
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically it did not reach a thing and achieve nothing and now there's this real sense of
14:12
[SPEAKER_06]: new life, the new cycle is beginning and our connection with as much as I speak with our friends and community, our connection with nature when being in this warm weather and sun is completely different from anything we experienced before.
14:34
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically there's a sense of that we went through
14:43
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a mess.
14:46
[SPEAKER_06]: At the same time, there's some sense of that we have bumped from the bottom.
14:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to add in it?
14:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I know just feel free to.
14:59
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
15:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, we just thank you for sharing that.
15:03
[SPEAKER_04]: That there is spring and there is hope and connection
15:13
[SPEAKER_04]: for a while for a few weeks, to leave you pain in the middle of this disaster and exactly my thoughts like this is a survival game.
15:22
[SPEAKER_04]: We have to go through this.
15:23
[SPEAKER_04]: There were no thoughts of going out to the streets and marching against continuing to resist.
15:31
[SPEAKER_04]: It was more internal threshold.
15:37
[SPEAKER_04]: I have to go through this.
15:40
[SPEAKER_04]: together with the other Ukrainians because we have to.
15:44
[SPEAKER_04]: We don't have other choice, but to live through this horrible, horrible winter.
15:49
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know that it was horrible primarily for big cities like Peeva and Dessa, but I was also aware that our man and women have been going
16:09
[SPEAKER_04]: You do it is, et cetera, on the prompt line, but also the prompt line CDs were under complete shalings and bombings all the time they didn't have access to Walter or he didn't, et cetera.
16:26
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just that the deep CDs were trapped this winter, but smaller CDs were suffering from that even earlier.
16:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I have to be honest, I had to leave
16:36
[SPEAKER_04]: three and a half weeks ago from King of after spending two weeks in Zabarisha, which is even closer to the front line, basically the front line has moved like 20 kilometers to my own town, where my parents and my brother and his family still live, to take care of my parents, et cetera, and there was an interest in situation where I felt safer and more resilient in Zabarisha,
17:06
[SPEAKER_04]: drones even during daytime, which is an unusual situation for people usually they come for us at night, but they had to get in.
17:14
[SPEAKER_04]: So I could go on on the basic level, I know that it might sound really weird for someone who doesn't experience bad, but as soon as you have those basic things and you can kind of take care of yourself in a normal way until the next attack comes, it gives you more resilience and more strength than this deprivation, which wasn't key like no heating sometimes, no water.
17:41
[SPEAKER_04]: they are early at any electricity.
17:43
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what about you beat us, but I have like in the last few weeks I have probably four hours of electricity per day.
17:54
[SPEAKER_06]: There were some days with two hours of electricity in there.
17:58
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
18:00
[SPEAKER_06]: So I'd like to add one to drop in one super important thing.
18:04
[SPEAKER_06]: I think this theme must be in our conversation pretty early.
18:13
[SPEAKER_06]: The sense of gratefulness and the experience of gratefulness.
18:19
[SPEAKER_06]: So one of the key lessons of this war for us and for most of you
18:28
[SPEAKER_06]: really appreciating and valuing so many simple things that we usually take as normal or take for granted.
18:36
[SPEAKER_06]: So, for example, okay, starting from the biggest one, so peace, peace is not normal.
18:42
[SPEAKER_06]: It's an animal, it's a miracle.
18:45
[SPEAKER_06]: So more is normal, unfortunately, for the human nature, and we experience that, as I said, I am to speak about this.
18:55
[SPEAKER_06]: But going to simple things like electricity is not normal.
18:59
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a miracle, water at home is a miracle.
19:04
[SPEAKER_06]: Heating is a miracle, having your house intact, you know, having
19:13
[SPEAKER_06]: appreciate it, so so many simple things, and this, this enriches our lives in so many ways.
19:26
[SPEAKER_06]: So I'll stop here because it's so much more to unpack.
19:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'd love to invite you to share more about that.
19:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can imagine also, as you've both been saying, there's just real devastation and hardship.
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think people will find that, well, at least I found that very touching, and I find it touching now to hear,
19:53
[SPEAKER_02]: of the gratitude that you feel for the simple things and that you know in the West and I think we've lost touch with that a lot and we have so much yet so many people feel lost or depressed you know and so could you say more about yeah what what the conditions are
20:23
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't even know where to start, shall I start with those DJ rays which people were putting up in that most harsh days of this winter like minus 20 and keep and people are getting together and those DJs they started just doing it every Sunday in different locations.
20:44
[SPEAKER_04]: So that people not just young people, anybody could join and dance this out of themselves that's one of the examples.
20:54
[SPEAKER_04]: Another example is, I'm sure you have it two meters.
20:58
[SPEAKER_04]: When they look at Tricity, we have, um,
21:02
[SPEAKER_04]: that we have the schedule and the shifts where we will get a tricity in our house, but after the most severe attacks in February in January, this schedule stopped working.
21:15
[SPEAKER_04]: So we never knew when the electricity will come.
21:19
[SPEAKER_04]: Guess what, it creates this uncertainty, which is permanent.
21:23
[SPEAKER_04]: You just don't know.
21:24
[SPEAKER_04]: And you mentioned Western civilization,
21:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, it's a great idea to go out into the nature and go through some retreat, I don't know, going out, stepping out of your boundaries, but imagine 50, no, we're not people right now, 30 plus million people put into this retreat, permanently, the Bible retreat.
21:51
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't know when they were preceding welcome.
21:53
[SPEAKER_04]: And the water might stop running.
21:55
[SPEAKER_04]: All you can predict is if there is another attack,
21:59
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you read in your telegram channel or whatever, then use that they are trying to keep heating stations, you might start thinking that they might not be heating or water or electricity, et cetera.
22:14
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all the predictability that you have.
22:18
[SPEAKER_04]: And our cities were not built for that kind of survival.
22:24
[SPEAKER_04]: They're not, you can't put up the fire in your apartment,
22:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, so you have to get creative.
22:31
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is where you
22:34
[SPEAKER_04]: start waiting for basically Ukrainian learn to stop waiting for authority to come and solve your problems since 2013-2014, but the challenges of 2022 plus have put us into a situation where really truly we don't wait for anybody to come and solve our problems and we create immediately
23:04
[SPEAKER_04]: people like before I left an after I left for this meaning vacation from no heat in the water nor electricity I was helping a friend whose mother is in a day so that friend cannot access Ukraine to multiple reasons.
23:21
[SPEAKER_04]: And I found, and not a friend who went to visit this age lady who also sits in a death without electricity and get her power banks and all of those things.
23:33
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just a small example, but believe me, there is more.
23:38
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's on a ongoing permanent basis, theta.
23:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and it's so natural, kind of everything you're telling for me, it sounds so natural, that's what we do here, it's not something to be admired, it's like, it's natural and it's super, it's super pleasant to realize that there are so many examples of
24:01
[SPEAKER_06]: of this horizontal support that people just they those who have batteries for example i have batteries and my apartment times invested some money into that so basically we can survive for some more hours after we get you know cut off from the grid and
24:19
[SPEAKER_06]: And for example, we accepted some friends, so some friends lived at our place while their apartments were frozen to zero or even below zero, and this kind of supports some people are even taking the cables from their apartments and putting them in the staircase corridors.
24:36
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, so that other people can comment and charge their phones.
24:41
[SPEAKER_06]: and so many these kinds of examples and there are those resilient points of resilient, how to call them, the points of resilient.
24:51
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, in the districts that are frozen, they create the kind of military style tent.
25:00
[SPEAKER_06]: which has a third-mile isolated tense with heating so that people can come there and and find food, find even electricity, of course with generators and some people were even sleeping there.
25:16
[SPEAKER_06]: So these kind of voluntary initiatives, both institutional and structured and
25:26
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, very spontaneous, they are being born every day out of nothing.
25:34
[SPEAKER_06]: And people are really connected, there's this one of the sources of Ukrainian resilience is this horizontal, not even network, but I would call it mesh war.
25:49
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, with some centers in the tentat,
25:55
[SPEAKER_06]: That's what I deeply admire, and I would call it practical spirituality.
26:02
[SPEAKER_06]: This is not a kind of, okay, let's meditate and let's go for retreat and let's, let's did what, what kind of shit have I not discovered yet from my childhood, you know, but,
26:25
[SPEAKER_06]: I just bumped into one by the way, I just recently saw a book, which is, which name is, we've had a hundred years of psychotherapy and the world's getting worse.
26:45
[SPEAKER_06]: So, so for me it resonated so much and then I saw that this book was published in 1991.
26:54
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically this was the most optimistic.
26:58
[SPEAKER_06]: point in our recent history when approximately that time Fukuyama wrote his end of history.
27:04
[SPEAKER_06]: And we thought that, yeah, that's it.
27:06
[SPEAKER_06]: The democratic liberal system has won the race.
27:14
[SPEAKER_06]: And now we are reflecting on these kinds of things a lot.
27:17
[SPEAKER_06]: And basically, this experience has helped us
27:23
[SPEAKER_06]: reinvent spirituality in some sense, and of course we are all engaged in some different spiritual practices, but we do not try to hide in them here kind of because spirituality and it has become very practical, very actionable and not the place to hide from our discomfort from our
27:50
[SPEAKER_06]: you know, inner and outer problems and so on.
27:55
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically it's it's bound in action.
27:57
[SPEAKER_06]: It's bound in in decisiveness and even in fight if necessary.
28:02
[SPEAKER_06]: So there's no I don't see any any conflict between fight and spirituality.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really beautiful is that the task because this is what I
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: particularly my last trip to Ukraine.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as coaches, right, we think about trauma-informed coaching or leadership like a credential or a course that we did.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how we have, how the people we were to get with in Ukraine, including YouTube, it isn't, it's like something that's just, we need to be able to live a good life.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things I experience in Ukraine is that Ukrainians, brilliance, and revenge is to love their lives.
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when there are drones coming, you know, it's like, how do we begin to normalize that?
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And then let's just, you know, and then there's a calming and a self-regulating without with each other, without making a big thing of it.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also the conditions that these guys are describing.
29:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also the conditions for extraordinary innovation, right?
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can see that I just read today in the papers that when Zelensky offered to teach the U.S. how to work with Iranian Shahi drones, the U.S. Oh no, we don't need that.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And now,
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: one week into this shit show that that's happening you know there are Ukrainians there helping the United States you know well while the United States is bombing and the pre which is making it good for the for Russian oil anyway not not to go that that wide right now but I guess but I wanted to underline
30:14
[SPEAKER_00]: was, you know, like, Elena is extraordinary.
30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen her and worked with her in groups, holding someone in their trauma.
30:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also who she is.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's how people become because you need to be in order to be present for your children in order to be there for each other.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the last piece I just reflect is an American, where we start you started the question, is somebody who grew up in America, we took a eye and my generation took living in a free society and a safe society as not something you have to work for.
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We took it as a given.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: that democracy, you know, that this people would do the right things and follow the rule of law, and I feel so sobered by the state of the world.
31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And in Ukraine, people are fighting not just for their future, but their the front lines fighting for the rest of the western world.
31:30
[SPEAKER_00]: with those in the Western world who are still holding democracy as a value in the face of everything that's happening right now.
31:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's incredibly moving to me to connect with Ukrainians.
31:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you, Dana.
31:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to ask about what you're sharing about how people are responding and reinventing spirituality.
31:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I notice
32:05
[SPEAKER_02]: that in my journey, there was a kind of like toll emphasis on inner work, you know, especially early on ignoring like how it practically lives in the outward or somehow seeming that like the inner is separate from the outer.
32:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I just hear in the way you speak about this about what it's like in Ukraine that that's just completely not possible.
32:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Like everything has to
32:31
[SPEAKER_02]: be practical, but it's a response to everything that's unfolding.
32:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the other thing is, I wonder about sometimes in our field that we're all coaches.
32:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've said, hey, coaches can play an important role in our times.
32:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've been in my own spiritual journey.
32:59
[SPEAKER_02]: But I've looked around and I've said, what impact are we actually having as coaches?
33:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Or what impact is the spiritual community actually having in the world?
33:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Are we a little bit over enamored like with the inner journey?
33:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So to speak.
33:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm saying it because I love that work.
33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: What I come to is like, how you view that now.
33:29
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you see this?
33:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I hear you speaking to like, when the shit hits the fan, then you find out.
33:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and people, I'm hearing people respond and are responding and these incredibly beautiful, creative, innovative ways.
33:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanna do if you could speak a bit more to, yeah, what you're learning about,
33:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, being in Ukraine, how it impacts your growth and stuff.
33:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:01
[SPEAKER_04]: That's true.
34:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Huge question and juicy topic.
34:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, where should I start?
34:09
[SPEAKER_04]: Great question, Joel.
34:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I was one of those that you just described, personated by the in the joining.
34:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
34:18
[SPEAKER_04]: This is not it.
34:20
[SPEAKER_04]: I was all brought, I was going to retreat, so I was doing spiritual work in something which is called integrity and other things to meditations.
34:32
[SPEAKER_04]: What else can I do to, well, instead of me, I considered myself to be
34:39
[SPEAKER_04]: and then of the world, one of the world, like, no boundaries, you know, there's global love and friendship and we are growing to, it has helped me out the layers of teal and beyond, you know, all of that.
34:55
[SPEAKER_05]: Third, Jim.
34:58
[SPEAKER_04]: And I, I was shocked to see how all of that scaffolding,
35:09
[SPEAKER_04]: from bold, fell in February, 2022.
35:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't know how to stitch those two realities together, but I didn't question why it found.
35:27
[SPEAKER_04]: It was so clear to me.
35:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there is no place for individual
35:38
[SPEAKER_04]: So, to the stating as this big war, as we call it, full-scale reformation, you can't survive on your own.
35:48
[SPEAKER_04]: This idea of a lonely warrior on the spiritual path to wisdom beyond wisdom, it just collapses when you are in the middle of this disaster like that.
36:08
[SPEAKER_04]: through my relationship with colleagues across the world, I had a chance to speak about situations of crisis in different other contexts.
36:20
[SPEAKER_04]: I have friends from the Middle East who say the same and people in New Zealand or Australia who suffer from barriers or earthquakes, they say the same, whether it's a natural disaster or a main men disaster,
36:37
[SPEAKER_04]: You have to work as a team.
36:39
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just that our team is huge, multiple millions of people who joined as one to resist this ultimate danger.
36:50
[SPEAKER_04]: Basically, they want to erase us as a nation.
36:55
[SPEAKER_04]: We might not die fully as human beings, the flash will survive, but they will want to kill our identities,
37:05
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you call it democracy.
37:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I would say it's just the way of life where you have a freedom to actually choose you in a journey, because in the country, which is our aggressor, now, they just can do it fully or at all.
37:31
[SPEAKER_04]: I will not go into that in that sphere.
37:35
[SPEAKER_04]: So I will get back to myself.
37:41
[SPEAKER_04]: I started questioning whether I should just persist living in this new, newly found inner journey, which became just a collective journey.
37:51
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember in 2020, you know, I left.
37:58
[SPEAKER_04]: I went to Denmark into a safety of Copenhagen thanks to a friend who is the colleague now.
38:06
[SPEAKER_04]: His name is Nikolai Tillish and I'm super thankful to him for that and Lee and the Rachel Heather, who also invited me there.
38:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I came back to Ukraine and it felt like a sacred journey to me, just to touch the
38:25
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I remember that in those couple of weeks that I tried to orient myself, can I say, hey, should I leave what's happening here?
38:32
[SPEAKER_04]: There are sirens, but there are no bombs.
38:35
[SPEAKER_04]: It was summer 2020 to two and now it's different.
38:38
[SPEAKER_04]: There are bombs.
38:39
[SPEAKER_04]: And so in those couple of weeks, I felt like, oh, I should go and visit this retreat place where I used to stay for a week or two over multiple summers.
38:50
[SPEAKER_04]: And I went there and the guys who hold the retreat space they were there and I was so surprised, like, you didn't believe you didn't go to elsewhere because you have communities and Germany and Spain.
39:01
[SPEAKER_04]: And they said the spiritual journeys happenings here.
39:07
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the land of the spiritual journey now.
39:11
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's why we're here.
39:12
[SPEAKER_04]: And I found the sea.
39:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so I'll maybe pick up from here.
39:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Thanks, Lena, for sharing this.
39:22
[SPEAKER_06]: And so so much that resonates.
39:25
[SPEAKER_06]: I also was very,
39:29
[SPEAKER_06]: deeply involved in different kind of spiritual seeking and in very deep in the inner work and speaking, you know, in terms of the Wilber squadrons, very much in the left side squadrons, especially in the upper left, you know, and
39:54
[SPEAKER_06]: And there was so much self-indulgence and complacency and sense of all harm and growing up.
40:05
[SPEAKER_06]: And only later, I discovered how much comfort I...
40:14
[SPEAKER_06]: I was seeking there and the hiding place, you know, and this full-scale invasion, full-scale war, it gave us something that we usually call a evolutionary pick-and-the-pants or slap-and-the-face, you know, when the life is giving you that evolutionary kick,
40:38
[SPEAKER_06]: and that showed how much of real development and real self-discovery.
40:48
[SPEAKER_06]: And I would even say, say, real healing, I'm not saying that we are not going through some new trauma, of course we are, but in some senses we will also go through integration.
41:06
[SPEAKER_06]: And this, you know, traumatic growth.
41:09
[SPEAKER_06]: And
41:11
[SPEAKER_06]: In a sense, this practice became more integral or more fall, you know, because we kind of connected the left hand quadrant, center of the right hand, quadrant.
41:20
[SPEAKER_06]: And it took some time to make sense of it, and to discover it for the first probably two years.
41:30
[SPEAKER_06]: So this full-scale war, I was still struggling inside.
41:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, what is happening?
41:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Why all those previous practices that not working,
41:41
[SPEAKER_06]: I was used to and I expected them, you know, and yeah, now it's completely different, it became more real, more honest,
42:05
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm actually speaking a lot with my Zen master, that I don't know if you know, is the founder of integral then, Doshin, Michael Nelton, Roche, and he's supporting me a lot in this experience.
42:19
[SPEAKER_06]: And he just recently said that,
42:24
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't remember whose court it was, but it comes from the World War II.
42:29
[SPEAKER_06]: There are no atheists in Moscow, something like that, you know.
42:33
[SPEAKER_06]: And when the bombs are and missiles and drones are exploding, above your head.
42:39
[SPEAKER_06]: So your atheists, even if it was there, it's evaporating so quickly.
42:47
[SPEAKER_06]: And then I must remember those first,
42:52
[SPEAKER_06]: First night, that our place, when there was this drone at the accent and aerates the sirens and and, you literally saw those drones flying and being being hit above basically above key, and so again, we are coming back to this to this re-invention of spirituality and there were so many
43:18
[SPEAKER_06]: you know, paradigm shifts and even like some of them really really big ones, tectonic, tectonic shifts.
43:26
[SPEAKER_06]: One of those was,
43:30
[SPEAKER_06]: that, you know, previously, we would look at the Western part of the world and the democratic Western part of the world as role models, as examples to seek, you know, into, to mimics.
43:44
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically the US and the European Union countries and,
43:50
[SPEAKER_06]: and we learned from them and we tried to repeat those patterns and then all of a sudden we realized there are no more models, there are no best practice examples left, and especially recent
44:13
[SPEAKER_06]: what a mess is happening over there.
44:17
[SPEAKER_06]: So what happened to us, we suddenly realized that we are the adults in the room, and the first reaction was a shock.
44:27
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm not saying it in an arrogant way.
44:29
[SPEAKER_06]: That, of course, we have our shadows and we have our, you know, developmental needs both individually and as a society.
44:39
[SPEAKER_06]: But basically, we realize that, yeah, we are.
44:42
[SPEAKER_06]: We are the adults.
44:43
[SPEAKER_06]: And we have to fight for ourselves.
44:45
[SPEAKER_06]: We have to keep our agency.
44:47
[SPEAKER_06]: We have to take all the responsibility.
44:49
[SPEAKER_06]: There's not no one and nothing to kind of to eat or to delegate that responsibility to you know.
45:06
[SPEAKER_06]: and I would say that what is happening can you create recently is the most powerful accelerator of growing up generally because we need to survive of course we have some support from mostly from the European countries but but we need to to do the dirty work here and what helped me to come through this shift where my clients actually my coaching clients
45:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Because I mostly work with the business executives and those people who are taking a lot of responsibility, the top managers of the larger organizations, including by the way, the energy supply and organization, but the biggest one in Ukraine, which is,
45:55
[SPEAKER_06]: which is being hit, you know, which assets are being hit and they're repairing those power plants overnight and doing really great work and when working with those executives what I saw that they basically they are so focused and so real and so practical and and for some time kind of they
46:22
[SPEAKER_06]: or me they became kind of coaches because they helped me to stabilize and to ground and to center in this practical actionable, no umboa kind of conversation on growth development, you know, and becoming more efficient.
46:45
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah and that was powerful.
46:48
[SPEAKER_06]: So for me, I would summarize it that it's more about being real, being honest, somewhat cynical, I would say, because that's part of our kind of mode of surprise, both cynical in terms of all those illusions that we had about the Western world and about democracy, about rule of law, about the world order.
47:11
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think, and we found that there's some
47:17
[SPEAKER_06]: some level of healthy cynicism, especially speaking about Ukrainian humor, which is super powerful, and beautifully cynical.
47:28
[SPEAKER_06]: You can't imagine like every time something happens, for example,
47:38
[SPEAKER_06]: meeting at the overall office in February last year.
47:44
[SPEAKER_06]: So how many memes and how many jokes we've had like instantly in minutes.
47:50
[SPEAKER_06]: So this is the healthy way of decompression, you know, of the tension in this society.
47:56
[SPEAKER_06]: And I see a lot of that in my
48:00
[SPEAKER_06]: in my coaching clients who have a lot of responsibility, their life is a nightmare.
48:05
[SPEAKER_06]: They have a lot of people.
48:07
[SPEAKER_06]: A lot of their employees in the army, you know, some of them wounded, some of them, unfortunately, didn't kill.
48:15
[SPEAKER_06]: And they have all the responsibility for you know, supporting their families and so on.
48:20
[SPEAKER_06]: So they're going through some enormous, you know,
48:25
[SPEAKER_06]: burden of complexity and responsibility.
48:31
[SPEAKER_06]: And at the same time, they're keeping this kind of healthy humor as the way to survive.
48:39
[SPEAKER_06]: So I would say that we're learning from our clients a lot.
48:45
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if you've shared this experience here, but this is not only the one-way street.
48:52
[SPEAKER_02]: there's so much in what you shared that's so powerful and brings up more questions, like one question I'd love to ask there, Dennis.
49:03
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, there seems like there's still a real need for coaching in these kinds of situations.
49:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And could you say more about that, like there's a, you know, because I think sometimes I wonder, you know, when things break down in the way they, or you know, there's this level of disruption you're experiencing, you know, is that the end of coaching?
49:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, to people say, hey, well, that's a nice thing to have,
49:31
[SPEAKER_02]: When things are good, but we can't do that right now, but it sounds like no people are still seeing the need for coaching and what kind of coaching is really helping people.
49:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this leads to the en general and curious about what kind of practices shared or individual still feel relevant.
49:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and then we'll do like to start?
49:56
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, go on.
49:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so I would say that this is most about mostly about the resilience and healthy form of resilience.
50:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I would definitely the risk need and demand for coaching, but it's kind of different.
50:27
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how to say it without sounding too cynical and irrepensely.
50:32
[SPEAKER_06]: This is not about philosophy, but let's speak about emotional intelligence.
50:38
[SPEAKER_06]: It's emotional intelligence is even more important than before.
50:43
[SPEAKER_06]: But people want really to be very real and very practical.
50:47
[SPEAKER_06]: And
50:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Usually my clients are not articulating their needs very clearly, so which means they usually are not aware of what they need, but they are coming with some problems and complaints, usually that are connected to this being in the survival mode for too long and being in there.
51:16
[SPEAKER_06]: in the burnout and when we unpack it, it's usually ends in their ability to deal with that level of complexity and even he chaos.
51:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Being
51:33
[SPEAKER_06]: in contact with that, basically being aware that and being in a healthy relationship with their ability or limits of their ability to be with that complexity.
51:47
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, so basically to become more real, to become better able to appreciate what they do, because usually there's this
52:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, there's nothing special and just doing my work, but if you would basically show what that person has done over the last, I don't know, one or two or three years, I would say that would sound really impressive for any business executive in any Western country and so on.
52:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Um, basically it's, again, about more about self empathy in many ways, not only psychological, but also, but also somatic, that they're kind of taking better care of themselves.
52:44
[SPEAKER_06]: And often it's about, um,
52:52
[SPEAKER_06]: allowing basically given the right to take care themselves because they are seeing so much suffering and they're carrying so much burden of responsibility for so many people.
53:05
[SPEAKER_06]: So in that context,
53:08
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, having a break or taking care of the cells may seem very, you know, okay, undeserved.
53:19
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically what I'm doing a lot is helping them calibrate their frames of reference and appreciate what they do.
53:27
[SPEAKER_06]: and really take care of themselves, and from there we can go into a kind of leadership effectiveness, topics, different competences, and so on.
53:39
[SPEAKER_06]: But this is the base level I would say.
53:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beautiful.
53:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Lena, how about you?
53:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I just want to add a few things to this.
53:50
[SPEAKER_04]: I agree with most of the things that
53:56
[SPEAKER_04]: those were the most were the Ukrainians in Ukraine and outside of Ukraine and of course those who women who decided to move out, they have other challenges of integrated into their life and also like visit chat, visit touch and themselves from their past basically to move on.
54:14
[SPEAKER_04]: But for those who stay in Ukraine, I guess the first year during a half probably we were all very
54:25
[SPEAKER_04]: come on goal and it was really hard to start thinking outside of this collective effort.
54:32
[SPEAKER_04]: But then the life goes on and we just started integrating this culture context into our life.
54:42
[SPEAKER_04]: And that did live in a new life where this big war is part of our context continuously.
54:54
[SPEAKER_04]: integrate continuous disruptions, the chaos, which is ongoing, compared to chaos, which comes and goes, that one is unpredictable, but one thing is for sure it will come back.
55:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Once they invent weapons or if Trump stops applying our air defense,
55:25
[SPEAKER_04]: get their targets and we're in a new chaos.
55:28
[SPEAKER_04]: So we have to integrate them into our latest realities and once people learn to live with them, obviously they started having questions about their life.
55:38
[SPEAKER_04]: So they had to hold those two priorities, the ultra-context and their lives.
55:43
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, they would have the same questions, leaders would want to be better leaders.
55:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Women would want to have them and obviously,
55:53
[SPEAKER_04]: we want to have the relationships where they were partners, et cetera, et cetera.
55:58
[SPEAKER_04]: But it is all together with that outer context.
56:01
[SPEAKER_04]: And I agree with Rita's that when so much is going on, and I don't know about you, but I often hear much bigger challenges and go in my comfort to that.
56:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just lost to you a bit there, Lane.
56:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Could you say that last sentence again?
56:17
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
56:19
[SPEAKER_04]: So, apart from the ultra-context, there was a comparison to our superheroes at the front lines where there was a little bit of this diminishing of my personal effort to just actually continue going on in this life, being a leader and helping them to get them into the practices
56:40
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been modeling over as we were thinking about the spirituality, but I will park it for now, but as to the practices, I would say, on my personal level and with my clients and with the groups that I've been working with since this context, puts us into a very interesting, I would say,
57:06
[SPEAKER_04]: instead of being in the 20th century or rather, being in the 20th century with the AI and robots and so on at the same time all of those attempts and the words that have so kernel it brings back the past times and the techniques which worked for us as humans it makes us so human on the very deep kernel level.
57:31
[SPEAKER_04]: that getting together around the fire, telling our stories, sharing the shit which is going on in our lives, and I'm speaking much forwardly, but actually physically as well.
57:44
[SPEAKER_04]: My best practice has been getting together with my Gem Z neighbor.
57:50
[SPEAKER_04]: and just talking about all of those little challenges that we're facing with the electricity and heating and then a laugh-in-out loud about that and to me, this is tribal, but also you mentioned DevDana in the beginning of our conversation,
58:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, polo-vago, serene 2020, three on the very deep level, and then I got training in trauma-release exercises, which is intertwined with polo-vago theory, and last year I was also certified in PVT.
58:31
[SPEAKER_04]: And one idea from the polo-vago theory, which
58:36
[SPEAKER_04]: I took a retreat in France and then was going back to Peev and I was so afraid to do that.
58:43
[SPEAKER_04]: And then just hearing about this very basic thing, like social engagements, the social, the the ventral, this, right, that in Vegas, which is inbuilt into our bodies, that's when it's
59:01
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a system inside of our bodies, how to co-regulate with others in the face of horrible, horrible danger.
59:10
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's not to take the trauma in and it's just going out there talking to people laughing, smiling,
59:27
[SPEAKER_04]: just having little conversation so that this out-of-pressure stops pumping out of our system.
59:35
[SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting that this danger, it's not going anywhere until the war is over, but we can't have to create those small islands outside the fully vagal theory that we can build those small
59:53
[SPEAKER_04]: In 2020 to three, I realized that instead of being this strong woman who uses her all of her mental house techniques to breathe and stay at home in her bathroom and between two walls when they're drunk and missiles, I realized that now I could rather let's throw this down for a go of going
1:00:21
[SPEAKER_04]: and which is basically a parking space underneath our house and look at other people and ask them around what they read in the news, just looking to the eyes.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_04]: And last summer, I have had the host, the funniest and the most existential experience from way of my life.
1:00:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Last summer was really hard.
1:00:43
[SPEAKER_04]: And just from the way, and then that, that, that's me.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_04]: 2025, Russians started heating pee of every night.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_04]: What it means is that if before we used to have like one attack, maybe two attacks per week, so you over time, three to seven days in between attacks where you can decompress, cleat, and prepare for the next attack, since May they've started heating up every single night.
1:01:18
[SPEAKER_04]: can't wrap your itself around.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_04]: And there is no time to decompress.
1:01:24
[SPEAKER_04]: So, but I was using my technique from the PVT, and I was going down to the parking space.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_04]: And we have a small patio and a clover of the entrance to this parking space.
1:01:39
[SPEAKER_04]: And there were several young people gathering together.
1:01:44
[SPEAKER_04]: because we all have 10 gram channel.
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_04]: And we know when the missiles come, when the shahed comes, but basically for the shahed, there were so many shahed that they were using like 200s per night, for key of that, that's a lot.
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_04]: To just to give you reference, normal attack is 10 to 20.
1:02:04
[SPEAKER_04]: We have 200 per night, that's a lot.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_04]: So we could hear Shahaz and we were able to discern by the sound, whether it's near and we should hide in the park in a lot or it's patterned way.
1:02:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was, you know, it was sound crazy.
1:02:19
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was so much fun.
1:02:20
[SPEAKER_04]: It's done in there with a group of young people and checking the telegram channels.
1:02:26
[SPEAKER_04]: And like saying to each other, oh, it's not near.
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_04]: All don't be afraid or probably we should hide or something like that.
1:02:35
[SPEAKER_04]: I haven't got invited to a concert by one of them later in the morning after the attack.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_04]: But that's what we do.
1:02:46
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so touching.
1:02:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Dana, do you want to add anything?
1:02:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know we're getting close, Joel, but I just wanted to underline this theme of how the context that they're living in.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So it accelerates, not just innovation, but living and embodying these practices.
1:03:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Like to deal with Elena, when she takes people through the Canven Framework and walks people from complex, complex, to complicated decaying us, it's so embodied and it's so inherent real that it's unlike doing it somebody who's just been through a training.
1:03:31
[SPEAKER_00]: and I marveled to read us, you know, I've known you more than 15 years.
1:03:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say before the war, you know, you're more defended.
1:03:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Since the war you've become undefended.
1:03:50
[SPEAKER_00]: and more vulnerable and open-hearted.
1:03:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's to think a war's close, you're supposed to get more divended.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You've gotten more, you've become more embodied in your heart, or more dropped into your heart.
1:04:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what I was saying that I was reactive.
1:04:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Not you, oh, dare you.
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you, anyway, you can, you can see I love these guys and I, I love what I, I've learned from them and but inspired by them and it's very, very touching.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:04:27
[SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
1:04:27
[SPEAKER_06]: I would like to add a couple of things, Joel, if you're in your mind and yeah, because it's you know, unwrapping and there are so many layers to this, to this experience, you know, living in this, uh, war context and, um,
1:04:44
[SPEAKER_06]: what really opened up for me, not on the theoretical level, but on a very real level, this all this traumatic work.
1:04:54
[SPEAKER_06]: So I was not deep into that.
1:04:55
[SPEAKER_06]: So Elena was focusing on that, even before the full-scale war, and that was part of her, and of...
1:05:03
[SPEAKER_06]: practice and professional offering.
1:05:07
[SPEAKER_06]: For me, that was something more like theoretical, of course, I knew I appreciated that in theoretical level.
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_06]: I was also doing some magnetic practices, but that was not the big thing, frankly speaking to me.
1:05:20
[SPEAKER_06]: And from the moment I heard the first
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_06]: And I heard it not with my ears, I heard it on my body.
1:05:37
[SPEAKER_06]: It's instantly changed kind of, I just to realize that whatever bravery or courage or whatever I imagined I had, it was gone in the moment, kind of, because then I found out that that explosion was around three kilometers.
1:05:58
[SPEAKER_06]: away from from from the place I was and I I still remember that kind of and and you know the this real somatic sense of of how your instinctual part of your very you know reptile part and then is reacting to those explosions you you you can not
1:06:26
[SPEAKER_06]: deceive yourself kind of.
1:06:28
[SPEAKER_06]: It's so real.
1:06:29
[SPEAKER_06]: And basically from that moment, this new super important part of, you know, human development and and and and and and practice opened up.
1:06:44
[SPEAKER_06]: And I started working with it much more in my in my coaching.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically I needed to experience that through my body.
1:06:54
[SPEAKER_06]: realize how important that was.
1:06:56
[SPEAKER_06]: And unfortunately, in many of my clients, they are still not really aware of this connection, you know, because they're going through a lot of difficult experiences and a lot of traumatic experience, but not connecting that through, like, and through their bodies.
1:07:17
[SPEAKER_06]: That was a big shift.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_06]: and reflecting on what you're doing, I was saying, again, if we look at those leaders and not necessarily business with any kind of leaders, and by the way, a lot of leaders did not
1:07:35
[SPEAKER_06]: realize they had this capacity in them, but the circumstances helped them, you know, unfold this leaders and sometimes they get even offended when they refer to them as leaders like, what?
1:07:50
[SPEAKER_06]: What kind of leader?
1:07:51
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm just doing what I can't.
1:07:54
[SPEAKER_06]: So when you observe them, so in the same
1:08:01
[SPEAKER_06]: much more systemic kind of work, even strategic kind of work, you know, really trying to invent something, something incredibly new to rethink some systems, some social government, I don't know, business systems, and so on.
1:08:19
[SPEAKER_06]: And at the same time, they can be deeply engaged in very kind of if we speak in terms of spiral dynamics, you know, beige and purple.
1:08:29
[SPEAKER_06]: kind of level and be real in that.
1:08:31
[SPEAKER_06]: So what I witnessed this span from beige and purple into the second tier and again all the levels in between for me that seems so impressive and sometimes it's important for those leaders to really
1:08:50
[SPEAKER_06]: I recognize that I treated that and make sense of it because people are doing this pretty naturally without putting too much, you know, importance on that work.
1:09:03
[SPEAKER_06]: So we have a lot to offer and so many, so many leadership practices that that are really are born here every day.
1:09:17
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think that the next phase of our work will be to make sense of it, and to back it and to offer it to the rest of the world.
1:09:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Because now it's way too much engaged in the practice.
1:09:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's I was thinking that it's so powerful.
1:09:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we're at time.
1:09:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you do you have each of you like another five six minutes?
1:09:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I just love to ask one question to end with maybe even ten minutes.
1:09:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean I'll probably
1:09:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just so moving, you know, on so many levels to hear what's happening there and how people are responding.
1:10:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, it's hard to speak into how much it touches me and how it touches me and how on the learnings that are happening.
1:10:10
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's really moving.
1:10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, but one question I have is,
1:10:16
[SPEAKER_02]: What, and it kind of gets to what you just said VTUS at there, which is what, what invitation would you make to the coach is listening to this, and maybe you know and answer that already, I'm trying to be more specific, it's like, you know, but like if I look at the Ukraine, yeah, the intensity there.
1:10:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Now hopefully,
1:10:37
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to experience war everywhere around the world, but it seems like things are breaking down.
1:10:42
[SPEAKER_02]: There's intensity.
1:10:45
[SPEAKER_02]: There's going to be disruptive events happening around the world, potentially.
1:10:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So what invitation would you make for coaches to be?
1:10:54
[SPEAKER_02]: to be, you know, a coach you can support people in these times.
1:10:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a huge question.
1:10:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And we don't, you know, we don't have, we could talk about that for a fall.
1:11:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe we do a part two and talk about that.
1:11:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, the headlines, like, if you could put it in a few sentences.
1:11:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, this is to you, Dana, as well.
1:11:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what, what would you, what invitation would you make to coaches around the world?
1:11:19
[SPEAKER_06]: So, if I, if I, if I missed that, uh,
1:11:23
[SPEAKER_06]: I would say that the simple and practical invitation would be to please come and visit us in Ukraine during this war, that day and I did in September 20, 24, and it's still
1:11:44
[SPEAKER_06]: I cannot say it's wholly safe, it's it's it's it's it's it's war there.
1:11:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Of course, we cannot guarantee anything here for even for ourselves, but it's relatively safe.
1:11:55
[SPEAKER_06]: So basically, you can it's a very civilized country safe in terms of in terms of, you know, general situation on the streets, you can easily walk in the evening.
1:12:09
[SPEAKER_06]: And, of course, you should be aware of those dangers and a race and so on, but the infrastructure is there, the support is there, a lot of foreigners are already coming back and a lot of them are visiting, so it's not something too exotically dangerous.
1:12:33
[SPEAKER_06]: and you can witness and see and observe and share experiences with local to really learn a lot and to to make sense of so many things in your ways.
1:12:51
[SPEAKER_06]: And
1:12:53
[SPEAKER_06]: And get connected to this kind of, you know, what I call more real world, less step this self kind of deceptive or
1:13:06
[SPEAKER_06]: you know, to see some of your blind spots and this environment here, including the people that can create that support and we have been hosting a lot of people coming, a lot of our friends coming from Western countries.
1:13:23
[SPEAKER_06]: So I would like to extend this invitation if someone would be really interested.
1:13:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Let's just get in touch with us and we'll think what we can, how we can support
1:13:37
[SPEAKER_06]: So I would summarize with that, and I don't know, maybe Dana is someone who has experienced that, first person perspective can, could share something, yeah.
1:13:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's, I think it's both an accurate and a very generous invitation, Vitas.
1:14:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a transformational invitation.
1:14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: and being in Ukraine for the first time in 2016 really planted that made the connection and planted the seeds but then to come with a group and to meet so many Ukrainians and to live
1:14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, only for a week, but to be in your space, to be with your family, to be in the, to be walking with a group and there's sirens that go off.
1:14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's go down in the little cafe and have a coffee and then we come back out and
1:14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something about the transformation through my cells of being there, so I think it's a beautiful invitation, and it's been profound for me.
1:14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can't come to the Ukraine, I almost want to pass the ball to Atlanta to see how I feel sometimes at a loss to connect people to that experience.
1:15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: and to how Ukraine lives in me because it's come so much through my relationship with these two and others, but also being there.
1:15:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also read the key of independent every morning and I and I look to see what are the things that are happening Ukraine that I want to financially support and what are the things to let people know about.
1:15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm in that inquiry right now.
1:15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel a little bit of a loss for other answers.
1:15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But pass it to Emmaena.
1:15:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you both.
1:15:50
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, feed us.
1:15:53
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's a great idea and a great invitation.
1:15:55
[SPEAKER_04]: And by the way, there are quite safe places like somewhere in the transcription where not only soils, or at least maybe one in four years, try to hit down so they're almost completely safe.
1:16:08
[SPEAKER_04]: to travel to.
1:16:09
[SPEAKER_04]: But of course, another two experience would be this an I was sharing you have to go to PE or DSLR.
1:16:15
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyways, if you take ways for the coaches probably, I will start with, I think I will start with nature.
1:16:27
[SPEAKER_04]: If you haven't developed your relationship with nature, start doing it now to be a better resource, both for yourself and for your
1:16:37
[SPEAKER_04]: Because something that will bounce around you, it will be something that will transmit this
1:16:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Eternal love to you, I have vibrational force into you when you're immersed into chaos.
1:16:56
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, there is human love, love for my country, love for my people.
1:17:01
[SPEAKER_04]: But if you have been in spiritual traditions, you would need to go into some space where you would find yourself connected with this higher self.
1:17:16
[SPEAKER_04]: in the middle of danger.
1:17:17
[SPEAKER_04]: There is no way you can fully switch a mind off.
1:17:21
[SPEAKER_04]: The part of me is all as soon as I cross the border, I can feel it in my body, even if I'm sleeping on the train.
1:17:29
[SPEAKER_04]: I know something is different.
1:17:31
[SPEAKER_04]: The vibration is different.
1:17:33
[SPEAKER_04]: You are on alert 24, 7.
1:17:38
[SPEAKER_04]: And it means that you can fully go in and go into some of your spiritual practices,
1:17:46
[SPEAKER_04]: So nature is a source of that, a safe source of that.
1:17:52
[SPEAKER_04]: And another thing, it's become trauma-informed if you haven't become yet.
1:17:58
[SPEAKER_04]: Learn about trauma and stress and how it accumulates in your body and how the amount of stress and the length of stress you're undergoing through is affecting your,
1:18:14
[SPEAKER_04]: body, your thinking, even.
1:18:17
[SPEAKER_04]: Then actually complexity where context work, the Canadian map were extremely helpful to me.
1:18:26
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know about Jupiter's, but I kept on thinking how we're sliding in between chaos and complexity.
1:18:33
[SPEAKER_04]: And even on my little individual level, how as soon as I learn how to manage electricity issues, it becomes
1:18:42
[SPEAKER_04]: some of the things are still kept in complexity and complicated and there is always imminent chaos, as I mentioned earlier.
1:18:51
[SPEAKER_04]: So it helps just to process things better.
1:18:54
[SPEAKER_04]: On the adult development side, I kept watching myself and as a collective, how we collapse like
1:19:11
[SPEAKER_04]: and imminent crisis, and I have to process it.
1:19:15
[SPEAKER_04]: And usually in my pre-war context, I would be extremely judgmental about myself.
1:19:21
[SPEAKER_04]: And I would start trying to direct myself out of that habit of thinking.
1:19:27
[SPEAKER_04]: But the world taught me that you have to tackle the priority things first.
1:19:33
[SPEAKER_04]: So my priority is, well, this is a viable, basically.
1:19:36
[SPEAKER_04]: So I would not judge myself if I,
1:19:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, uh, a whole scale of adult development or if you have other, uh, higher things of development, you might witness that too.
1:19:51
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, and, um, I guess.
1:19:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Last but definitely not the least.
1:20:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Everything about the body, embodiment, rocks in the situation so far, not only about trauma, but actually, once you have experienced a tech, anything that you can do with your body, shaking, dancing, running, I run a lot.
1:20:18
[SPEAKER_04]: and dance a lot when I'm in Ukraine because that helps to descharge the stress.
1:20:26
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a continuous danger which builds up cortisol in your bodies.
1:20:31
[SPEAKER_04]: And we all know that it leads to deterioration of all the body level functions and actually your brain functions worse than that.
1:20:39
[SPEAKER_04]: So you need to learn how to discharge that.
1:20:47
[SPEAKER_06]: And I'd like to add one more thing, Joe, if you don't mind, just if we, if we, and of address it to our colleagues, coaches and most of your audience is in the Western countries, of course, the wisdom that we learned very deeply here, and it's not you do, it's as old as the world, about the polarity between love and power.
1:21:16
[SPEAKER_06]: because one thing that we experienced a lot, including, you know, from very famous and respected public intellectuals in the West, that we're, you know, inviting...
1:21:31
[SPEAKER_06]: in the beginning that for pure pacifism and okay make peace with Russia and and and stop war and including the invitations for you know Western countries top feeding Ukraine with weapons like ringing it up as something very spiritual.
1:21:51
[SPEAKER_06]: So what we learned that you know, pacifism sometimes can kill and our friends even wrote that famous article in, I don't actually remember in which magazine that pacifism kills.
1:22:07
[SPEAKER_06]: But what I want to really point to is that love is not enough.
1:22:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, love needs teeth, love needs
1:22:16
[SPEAKER_06]: office, you know, you need to be able to protect yourself, you need to be able to protect your families, your values, your country.
1:22:25
[SPEAKER_06]: And this, this polarity, love doesn't work without power.
1:22:32
[SPEAKER_06]: And this, you know, this famous quote by a Martian Luther King Jr. that power without love is reckless and abusive and loved without power is sentimental and anemic.
1:22:42
[SPEAKER_06]: So this one thing, I think there's so much need, especially in the, you know, this coaching community and and I would say the inner work kind of circles to remember that we need, we need our and we need to reclaim our power.
1:23:09
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so beautiful.
1:23:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I see one last piece?
1:23:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they have to end, but because it's such a, this is such a big topic that we're opening off is really good ones.
1:23:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm like, we need to, we, we, so we do need to.
1:23:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll let you know, please.
1:23:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:23:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:23:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, last thing for me, it's a listening to beaters.
1:23:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I would say that it's challenged.
1:23:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Like this requires you to be a more complex human being on all the levels that you can imagine.
1:23:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And the more you develop yourself, the better you are prepared.
1:23:47
[SPEAKER_03]: not to diminish the importance of an inner child.
1:23:51
[SPEAKER_03]: There is a difference between having your inner child in built and being childish and infantile about things, including geopolitics.
1:24:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we have matured as a nation looking at those big, or used to be big.
1:24:09
[SPEAKER_03]: personas and countries in our countries who failed us multiple times, and instead of being a child crying in a corner, we brazed up ourselves with two cleweapons, and we continued protecting ourselves, surviving, and sometimes then thriving, so develop yourselves.
1:24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you said that, what a great way to end.
1:24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such big topics, such powerful learnings and important topics.
1:24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we had time to unpack them further.
1:24:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But we don't, and I just want to share my gratitude for all of you on call.
1:24:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really, like I said, I'm really touched and learning a lot, learning so much.
1:24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And I actually come away feeling really inspired, even though it's, you know, such a
1:25:02
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, to say that about something like war seems kind of crazy, but there was to be so inspired by the response of yourselves and the people of Ukraine, so to thank you, Elena, Vita and Dana, and maybe just quickly you could say, you know, if people want to reach out to you after this, I don't know if you want that, you know, Vita, she said, you know, if you want to come visit, let me know, where can people find you?
1:25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Or find your work?
1:25:30
[SPEAKER_06]: usual, usual channels, Facebook, LinkedIn, I have a personal website, which is butchewness.com, my third name.com, but now it's usually not a problem.
1:25:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, same with me, I'm still developing my website, but I have a page on Coltivetem leadership.
1:25:50
[SPEAKER_03]: website and I will share my content details.
1:25:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I will be happy to reflect if somebody wants to reach out with questions or if you dare to come to safer parts of Ukraine.
1:26:03
[SPEAKER_03]: I think Peter's and I can think about something and day and night you want to contribute.
1:26:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a coach is rising group.
1:26:14
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what's going to be wonderful.
1:26:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to wait?
1:26:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Dana Pointis, too.
1:26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel?
1:26:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Dana Dana Carmen into girl.com and at way finding a rise in leadership.
1:26:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
1:26:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we are.
1:26:30
[SPEAKER_02]: We're at the end of the podcast.
1:26:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Just a heads up again if you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create then head to coaches rising.com.
1:26:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Put your name in the sign up box there.
1:26:41
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.