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257. Dating After Divorce: Herpes, Deal Breakers & What Really Matters in Love · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Hi love.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave and build back your confidence.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, dawn Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer and divorcee.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Ladies, today we have with us a guest who needs no introduction because you have already met her and fallen in love with her the illustrious Lori Gerber.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Welcome.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Oh hello darling, hello, thank you, thank you.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Can you even remember a time that we were not soulmates?
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's been so long.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: You know how dating coaches tell you not to go too fast.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: We didn't follow any of the rules in the friendship.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: This friendship, we didn't.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: We just we broke all the rules.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: We did.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: We broke all the rules.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: It's weird.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: It's like the exception proves the rule, though I'm not willing to give up the rules.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Dom, I'm not willing to give them up, but it does feel like I found the one, yay, which is head, heart and hoo-ha, we make sense of practice.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: The three H's.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: It feels good and it turns me on All the three H's.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: So I do think we followed that rule which is my most important rule.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's what we want everybody to hear.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Right, we followed that rule, yeah.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And I actually am okay going fast if the head, heart and hoo-ha are all happy.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Cool, good to know.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Good to know, yeah.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: So when we wrapped recording our last episode where you taught us about the 3-H method and we talked about dating right Since then, right, we practically got friend married and so we see each other weekly because of things, right and we decided we needed to record a follow-up episode to talk about deal breakers right, like to talk about just things that we really should be discussing more, I think, up front and in the dating experience we stumbled across needing to discuss herpes as part of that.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So this episode, right, we're going to discuss deal breakers and dating.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the reasons I found you, spiritually speaking, is that I can't break down every single obstacle a woman has to believing in love and feeling ready for love and enjoying dating by myself, and sometimes I need other experts and I just need other people who are savvy.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: So a large percentage of people I've coached over the years deal with STIs and I am amazed by the level of shame we still have here in the modern era about it.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: And I am amazed about how many women fully take themselves off the market because of it.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I mean not just shame, not just embarrassment, not just confusion, not just shyness, not just, but truly give up on love because of it.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: And so when you and I started talking about some things you know about that topic, I my little ears perked up and I thought, wow, if there's something we can do about the fact of it, that's a whole lot, cause I work on the mindset and how to disclose and all the.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: You know all the emotional and technical and logistical parts.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: But I feel like you have some insights into something another approach, a whole different approach.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the flow of this chitty chat might be a little different, right, because we're going to tackle some of these topics together.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Right, we're going to clap, yeah, okay.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: So from your experience, is there such a thing as too early to talk about and bring up STIs or herpes or whatever in a budding relationship?
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: There is too early, I think, okay.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's a very I believe in transparency.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I believe that you're being.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: You do yes.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: I do, I walk, my talk you know this.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I'm constantly telling everyone what I think and feel, so I believe in transparency, but I believe in timing, and I don't equate transparency with tell everybody every single thing you think either or every single thing.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like the important things not everything.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: No, it's about integrity.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Right, Integrity yeah.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because, again, most of what we think is garbage.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Honestly, many of the thoughts we have deserve to be dismissed and tossed, but some things we think over and over again and some things are just truths that people have the right to know.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: And, in regards to dating, I believe everyone has about seven what I call liabilities or things that could be problematic in a relationship that need to be disclosed.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: But when you disclose them has to do with trust, rapport and the likelihood that this is your person.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: You don't need to be disclosing just for the fun of it or for the morality of it.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I'm teaching you.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: You have to expose it to see if you're a match, and so the timing depends on how comfortable and how much trust you've built.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Now this entire conversation we're having presumes that our listeners are following the 3-H method.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Let's not assume that.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Let's not assume that.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: But that's the recommendation right, which reminds the ladies what the 3-H method is.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: So the 3-H method has a lot of components, but I think let's summarize and say point number one you're listening to the needs of your head, your heart and your hoo-ha.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Those are the 3-Hs your head, what's practical?
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Your heart, how does it feel?
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: And your hoo-ha, what turns you on, what are you attracted to?
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: So you're vetting connections with potential mates based on those three criteria, each getting its own equal vote, not sharing the vote.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: And then you understand they're doing the same, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're doing the same.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: So, and then I give you only three dates to figure out if you really are a match.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: If you're looking for your last love of your life, if you're looking for casual, you can do what you want.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: But, for instance, right If you're not at an eight out of 10 in all three of those zones, like you wouldn't put yourself through the pain of having a conversation about an STI or whatever like you just right Like so it's like first things first, second things second.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, correct, correct, because it is painful.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: It's scary, it's embarrassing and nobody, it's nobody's business, unless you're thinking of having sex with them and and so yeah, so there is a too late.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't think there's a too late, and the too late is after you've already had sex.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: But candidly, I had herpes.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: When my husband and I got together and it was one of the scariest things I ever did in my entire life.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: To tell him and I know that some of that is directly correlated to I had still so much healing work to do then, right, I had done a lot, but there was still so much more, so I still had insecure attachment style, I still had self-esteem work to do, and so telling him did feel like I was collapsing into shame, right, and it was physiologically so deeply distressing.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was real.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: How did he take it?
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: He didn't care.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: This is what I love about the herpes conversation you really find out if they like you he was like great, can we go again?
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like 50% you find out they have it too.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: And then the other 50% you find out if they really like you or not, which is why it's good to do it by day two or three, because if they think you're hot and they want to have sex with you and they feel comfortable with you and your dreams intertwine well and your lives would work out and they like you, they feel enchanted by you.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Herpes isn't going to be what messes it up, unless they have OCD or some trauma around that particular thing in which case it could mess it up with a person, but then that's not your person and that's okay.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a quote which you're more likely to know than I am, but about, like, what's meant for you cannot be kept from you, right?
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: That sort of idea that?
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: my version of that is a quote from Lauren Handel Zander, my mentor and teacher of the Handel method you can't fuck it up with the one and for the children, you can't mess it up with the one.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't mess it up with the one.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: So if your disclosure messes it up.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: They weren't your one.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: They weren't your one and you really want to get rid of them sooner than later, before you get attached, before you invest before you take it personally, because it's not personal.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: What is the difference between a red flag, a deal breaker and a trigger when you're dating post-divorce right?
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: And this is like such a good question and we may have to sit with it for a bit right.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: It's complicated, Three things to hold it to think that.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: But it's so good and I think that these are the kinds of conversations we need to be having with women, because we teach them about red flags, we teach them about deal breakers, we teach them about triggers, but how do you sort them out when you're in it and you're feeling feelings and you're whatever, disassociating or I don't know right?
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: How do you do it when you're disassociated?
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, feel your feet on the ground first of all.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I think it's easiest to start with just saying the difference between red flags and deal breakers.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: I want you to look for red flags.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: I think red flags are another way of saying liabilities, and I put liabilities in quotes, which means a habit, a health condition, a living situation, a relationship that's not yet resolved, a personality trait.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: It's like the things and everybody has them, I estimate about seven that come up in a relationship that are like is that gonna work?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: And I think you want to look for those.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, and if it's your person, you don't mind those, or you can work with them.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: You can work with them or you want to work with them, yeah.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you're not looking for someone who doesn't have any red flags.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I would like everyone to know that my husband and I have the same fight over and over, and, over, and over and over again, and while it gets maybe the tiniest bit better each time we have it, it's like okay.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I know, I just know we're going to have this fight next month and the month after that it's on a monthly cycle.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: That's interesting.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: It often correlates to when I've been taking a new homeopathic remedy and I no longer feel like suppressing my frustration about the thing, and then I blurt it out, and then we have the conversation, and then we move on.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so red flags are nothing to be afraid of.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: They're something to pay attention to and sort out, but then a red flag can quickly turn into a deal breaker if it really is and that can be a thing like that thing is too triggering for you.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Like an alcoholic that's not in recovery is a deal breaker.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, but can we talk about the difference?
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Because I tend to think there are not a lot of deal breakers.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Agreed, okay.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: So I tend to think there's not a lot of deal breakers, and a deal breaker is actually, for me, is something in the realm of this person isn't willing to work on it or something Right, right, so an active alcoholic isn't willing to work on really anything other than right, because everything comes second to their addiction, right.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: So and that goes for any addiction that someone's not in recovery and you?
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you probably think, oh well, just give me the, give me the deal breaker and I'll fix it with a remedy.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Addiction is one of the hardest things, too, right, because it does take such an enormous amount of internal motivation.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: It really does.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Remedies are no remedies, right, yeah, it takes an enormous amount of internal motivation and commitment.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I'm just suggesting that part of why you think there are so few deal breakers is because you can fix everything with a remedy because you can fix everything, which is this is why I want to partner with you, because I want there to be so few deal breakers and I and I find over and over again that things that people think are deal breakers are not deal breakers.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: They're liabilities you have to work with.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Or triggers the third thing.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Or triggers, so I wanted to live in New York City.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: That would have been a deal breaker for someone who hates New York City, but it just wasn't for my husband.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: So a deal breaker is totally subjective and can change and not be a deal breaker.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: But the kinds of deal breakers I sort of accept when my client and I would love to hear if you would agree with this.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: But if someone says it's a deal like an addiction, an untreated addiction is a deal breaker or rage is a deal breaker.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Right violence.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Violence is a deal breaker, or doesn't want to be monogamous, or doesn't want to be poly, you know, whatever your thing is, yeah, misalignment of Doesn't want to live where I want to live.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Smoking is often a deal breaker for people like cigarettes, but that's addiction or drug use.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I do.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Where your dreams are taking, you are two separate and mutually exclusive.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's a fair deal breaker.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: I also think potentially differences in libido could be a deal breaker.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Although I of course believe you can work on that.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Did you hear my heavy?
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: breath.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I know you don't agree with this, but no, it's not that I don't agree with it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: It's.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's so hard.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: I have a lot to say about it.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: That's what it is.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: It's not that I don't agree, but I have a lot to say.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Can I give you a real life example?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, because again I keep wanting to go like maybe she's got a cure for that.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Like I, I break couples up right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Like I.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I'm in the midst of breaking.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I'm in the midst of breaking three different couples up, so I want to really hear what you have to say about these incompatibilities and deal breakers.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, so one couple the deal breaker is oh, I think if you can't forgive them for cheating, I think that's a deal breaker.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I think that's a reason In a past relationship.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: No in the current relationship.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: So I'm talking about relationships of people who are dating for a while now.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: So one incompatibility is this one wants to be this kind of poly and this one doesn't want to be that.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: This one wants to be a different kind of poly.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: So she needs more reassurance, he wants more freedom.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: To me I'm like go Like, don't try to.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Don't try to change yourselves.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: If you want a primary person and you only want to bring in a third with the both of you, and you want to be able to flirt with whoever, whenever, and get phone numbers.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: That's not coming.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: That's not.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I don't think that's a deal breaker right Now.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: I think the underpinnings of I think those are complex cases.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Remedies can right, like EMDR, ifs remedies can improve all those things.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: And I have my grad school wife.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: She read all the homework and then we discuss it in the car and then I'd know the answers to the exams.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Anyways, she's Polly and she's been right.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: We've been working on some things homeopathically and she's a therapist and she's a massage therapist, so she knows all the things right.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: So she has worked to improve, to have a more secure attachment style and further refine and define how she wants to have her love life look yes, yes, but all right, can I give you the second one?
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Yep, so this couple broke up because he is very type A, he likes to design his life, he likes coaching, he likes yeah, he just is like a mover and a shaker and she's kind of not joining him there right and she's she's sort of more aimless, doesn't quite follow up on things, like didn't write a birthday card, you know just like not beautiful.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Sex is great, beautiful um love, very strong love, but in the head area they're just not.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: They're nowhere like on the same wavelength or the same plane.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he tried for a long time to bring her along.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably he needs to downshift a notch and she probably needs to upshift a notch right.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Super interesting.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Go to where in your childhood did these patterns become established and how did you attract this person in the first place?
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Because I really believe from a vibrational place that we call like, calls to like.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So in what way are those two people mirrors for each other?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: In what ways are they both using their particular approaches to avoid feeling something or addressing something or tackling something?
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: I'm always looking for what is the subconscious pattern here?
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Because that relationship, you can end a relationship and this is why I think there aren't that many deal breakers and you are going to attract the same pattern in a different container, and it's just so often the case.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: So do you fight for a relationship, no matter what?
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: No, but I think that life is going to life no matter what, and I think that to really be in a monogamous relationship for an extended period of time, you have to be prepared for whatever life is going to throw at you.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: And that's going to mean many iterations of a self of beliefs.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Right, our beliefs should be evolving over time.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Our interests should be evolving over time.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Our sense of self and our relationship to the beliefs should be evolving over time.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Our interests should be evolving over time.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Our sense of self and our relationship to the world should be evolving over time.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: And so how can we be in a relationship with a person and expect that person to stay the same or to know how they're going to react to when this person dies or that person breaks?
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I think some of the most important things we can have are transparency, a willingness to work on it together, humility, vulnerability you know what I mean.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: It's more like character traits that I think are more important, because I think very few things are deal breakers unless we have unhealed wounds, because then it really triggers very often and we can't get out of our own way, right.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: And then I think that I am pro marriage and the reason I'm pro marriage and it's so interesting because we're on a divorce podcast but I started as a marriage therapist and then got divorced.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: So the reason I'm pro marriage is because I know that most people, if they just did that work, a lot of things would smooth out right and they wouldn't repeat the patterns.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: And so I think that it's short-sighted to think that divorce is a solution.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: I think divorce actually introduces an additional problem and if you haven't solved, like, the actual problems, then you're not really sure whether or not you're eligible for divorce, right?
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: So I just think a lot of people haven't done enough footwork to determine their divorce eligibility Right, right.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to say, to summarize, the deal breakers you and I agree on are transparency, willingness to work on stuff, self-reflection, willing to do your own inner work, and I would add to that, you know, dreams that don't mutually exclude each other.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see people have deal breakers, like around time spent meaning and I have seen some people navigate this beautifully but like, let's say, somebody who's already semi-retired and somebody else is still working that kind of thing, right, and their work is their purpose and their passion and whatever, and it's like, no, I'm not going to give you, you know, an unending round of time.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Or like kids, right, Like young kids that still require a lot of you know just life right, Attending to them.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: And maybe this other person wants to travel.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: So you know what I mean.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Like there are certain things, a stage of life issues, maybe that can be deal breakers.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Just real incompatibility around the practicalities and issues, which is a little bit what I'm saying in the second example, which is like he wants to be traveling the world and doing things that she literally can't content, content, you know and contend not to so and doesn't really want him doing it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: So it's.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: It really is mutually exclusive yeah dreams, visions, aptitudes okay, I'm not going to give you the third example, just in the interest of time.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: And talking about triggers, triggers.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Now I'm dealing in early dating and usually, because my specialty is when you're on the bench, are you gonna date?
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: You're in the early dating and you're looking for who you might want to date and then you're in early dating figuring out if they're the one.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: So usually we're not triggering each other yet at that stage.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Right, I find that's happening more in like right, which is where we, yeah, where we fall in a pothole Cause we, yeah, we are falling in love with a false sense of real life.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Exactly so.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: That's probably when triggers show up and when you either deepen into.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: We're going to figure this out together or you go.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I don't want to deal with that right Either.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not ready to deal with mine, or I'm not really ready to deal with yours, and then I'm out, and those are triggers.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of couples go through that when it comes time for commitment.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: In fact, I would say this couple the first couple I mentioned like when it came time for really commitment like, are we going to get?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: married or not.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: It was like no, this is not going to, we're not.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: We tried, but we're not going to come closer together.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: And I find that ambivalence is one of the most toxic things in a relationship.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Right, there is nothing that will tank someone's self-esteem or their self-concept than their partner being ambivalent, like unsure about being with them.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: That's triggering.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I would.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I would call that a trigger.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I would call that a trigger.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And I mean it's so funny because when you say trigger, I'm like I don't even know what you mean, because I can't relate to it personally other than what triggers me in my very long-term marriage.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Like he wants to go hang out with his friends and she panics Like he criticizes something.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Like it's like wounds that typically go back to our childhood or our parents, you know.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: I was going to say my point.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I do understand what triggers mean, but I am having trouble placing it in an early dating context.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: For me my triggers are so ancient and they're just the same as they've always been, except now I do them with my husband.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, if I have to patient if I have to patiently wait for the answer to something.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, you know, that's triggering to me.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, as it has always been my whole life with everyone.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: If I feel insecure about money, that is triggering to me as it has been my whole life regardless of him, so he can push my buttons, but my buttons were there, yeah, regardless of him.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: So I don't.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's a personal issue, not a dating issue per se, but obviously it comes up.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I think so many women settle for not an eight out of 10 in their head, heart and hoo-ha, right.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: And then it's like that right there clears up the bulk of this conversation we're having, you know, because if somebody's not being honest or transparent or engaged, like there's not going to be an eight out of 10 scoring, and then it's, and then that's it.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Well, the real trick is converting a woman's fear that being honest and transparent will drive the man away, because not only do we not think it's sexy and awesome, we actually think it's harmful and bad, and so I'm forever trying to convince a woman that it's the sexiest thing, that if you can convince a man, you actually want to know the truth and tell the truth if he really believes you, there will be this unbelievable ease in the relationship.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: If he wants the truth, that's right.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about that for a moment.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of things that us women have twisted right, like, for instance, do we wear makeup and style our hair in particular ways and dress in certain clothes for men or for ourselves, right Like?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: My husband prefers me in minimal makeup, looking natural, and you know how many men that I work with one-on-one and in couples counseling feel the same way.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I do it for women.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: You do it for women.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a third option.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: What is it For women?
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: For women, you said you do it for men, or for yourself, oh for yourself, for women, right.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: And so it's like are we, as women, really clear about what men want?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think so that feels like a whole other episode, that's all another, like a whole other episode.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I think most men's deal breakers are you're not over your ex uh-huh, don't have enough attention.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: You don't have enough attention for me?
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh, you don't need me.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Value me, respect me, admire me or have room for me.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Too much drama, or you're pressuring me like you don't care how I think and feel and then, and then I'm gonna throw in there not enough sex, because that's that's really which I was just talking about heart.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: But that's the one, okay so?
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: so you don't think that herpes or any STI is a deal breaker for most men?
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Good point.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably 50-50.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, I think every man who has herpes and knows they do it's an advantage, an asset, not a liability.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Well, and 25% of the 50 don't know.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: They have it and they have it.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: So 75%.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Exactly so for men who don't know they have it, I think it's 50, 50.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, and for men who know they don't have it, I think it's 50, 50.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: So you're dealing with I I'm really bad at the calculus of this, but I think 75% of men are fine if everything else is great.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: If everything else is not great, they might use that as the reason Use that that's it right.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Use that Just like you would.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: We are bullshitting constantly right we go oh, I couldn't do that because I have this other thing I have to do, and it's not true.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: It's like you didn't do it because you don't want to do it.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Right, that's right.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: We say I can't do it because Blame shift, blame shift.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's me, not you.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not ready, whatever.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not over my.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Can we circle back to the libido thing again?
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: That comes up a lot in my practice and it's becoming a real pet peeve.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: So in my experience, women of a certain age have taken a profound hit to their libido for a whole host of reasons Metabolic dysfunction, hormonal dysfunction you know what I mean Like adrenal fatigue, like so many layers of things that, quite frankly, the men in the world have contributed to.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Do you know how many women I talk to who want to make out but not have to be committed to have sex?
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: And men can't handle that and then they get huffy and right.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: So I think for men, this is a call to the men.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just sending out a vibrational note to the world of men.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Men, please do your work to be able to be more flexible around sex, love, making out libido and all of the things, so that you can learn to love a woman for more than just how it feels when your penis is wet.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Fair.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: But I actually think it's fair for a man to want to have regular sex and for it to be a deal breaker for him if she doesn't want to.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I have concerns because I think that more women than not are really struggling on a metabolic, metabolic level, and I think you're going to start to reduce the dating pool to a very small group of women.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Then, but don't you think that's a call to action, to self-care?
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, yes, yeah, well, but again, right, it's like is she at work on it, right?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: So is it a deal breaker that the that she has this challenge, or is it a deal breaker that she has this challenge and she's not addressing it at all?
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Bingo.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Bingo.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I mean I shut down my sex life with my husband, shut it down completely for a long time and he justated it I mean, he was lonely, he was nice yeah so nice and he just and I just, and it was literally one of the first things my life coach said to me addressed are you trying to get divorced?
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And I was like no, actually I'm not.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: And she's like well, the only thing that differentiates a friendship from what you have with your husband is sex.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: So if you're taking, that off the table.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: what are you doing?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And it was such a light bulb moment for me I was like oh my God, why?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: What is wrong with me?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Like what, and I don't mean that in a mean way.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I was like why?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: First of all, why do I.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Why didn't it occur to me?
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Why didn't it occur to me?
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: And the answer is because my parents weren't having sex.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So I thought that was normal, but when I actually broke it down, it isn't good for me either it's not good for me to not want to have sex with my.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: No, it means something's off.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, it means something is stuffing my face with potato chips and donuts and having a baby suck on my tit till they're four years old like that's not good for me.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: I loved breastfeeding till four.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Let me just say I loved it.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I would never, I would never change that.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: But the point is I was booked and I was booked with food and I was booked with my kids and I forsake this man I was not trying to get rid of in the, in the area where he expresses love and receives love and that's valid, yeah, in the area where he expresses love and receives love, and that's valid.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed, agreed.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: You know, and I coach a lot of nice men who just you know, obviously if you say no, they're not going to make you, that's the rule they learn Right Like that's what they learn.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: But then what do they do with the fact that they really?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: That's how they express love, that's how they feel close, that's how they want to show you how much they love you, they want to give you pleasure.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: They want to see you relaxed all of these benefits and as soon as I was like, oh right, if I gave up the food, I might even want the physical touch.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: I might even want the intimacy and I'd be better off.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Two ways, three ways, right.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I'd feel better in my body and my health I'd reconnect with my husband and I'd have the joy of sex.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And then once I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have sex on principle, then I figure out how to make it good because if I'm gonna do it anyway.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I might as well make it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: It's like you might as well make it amazing right.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: You might as well find the workout you like, yeah, so I found the sex I like and then it's like and and ps.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I still don't care, I still don't want to, but the benefits can we keep tabs on that?
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: in your remedy I was gonna say permission to speak freely.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Like can you?
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: like if you're gonna make me horny in addition to everything else yes, that's the plan, friend, that is the plan.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Please keep me posted so annoying.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's fine.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Right, it's fine, you'll have to work on my time management first.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: But, um, but my point is that I just I think it's such an asset to almost every relationship and if it forces you to deal with your childhood trauma, if that's it to deal with your sexual abuse and it forces you to deal with your body shame and it forces you to deal with your childhood trauma.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: If that's it, you deal with your sexual abuse and it forces you to deal with your body shame and it forces you to deal with your food choices.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Or your alcohol, television choices, breach, yes, good, good.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, can we segue into?
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Since men and women are not clear about what our deal breakers and what each other actually wants, what are some other things that women are suppressing in their dating life that men actually would think is hot, right?
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: So, like, what are desires that women have that they're not being honest about?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: That men really are looking for and we're like hiding it, we're not doing it?
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Tell me you're giggling.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I must know.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I'm giggling because I'm just thinking about making out with other women.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: So true.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I mean most men wouldn't mind yeah.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Most men wouldn't mind Just saying if that happens to fit your foot.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, men love our bodies.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm constantly saying.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: And then we don't love our bodies and then we're not loving our bodies.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Together it becomes a and they actually love us, loving our bodies and then we're not loving our bodies together, it like becomes a and they actually love us, loving our bodies.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: They don't just love our bodies, they love us loving our bodies.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, and most men don't care about a particular body type or, like some do, some are really.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: And if they do, they need a remedy.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: That's true, 100% Right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: They have some issues they need to work on Right.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: They have some issues they need to work on Right, but most men, just where did we you and I both read the same article recently was about the woman who was spending the month in Paris.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Yes and gosh, this was great.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe we could link the article in the show notes, because I experienced a state change when I read this article.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Was like she, you know, was like maybe perimenopausal or postmenopausal, and she was in Paris and she was single.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: And, you know, was like maybe perimenopausal or postmenopausal, and she was in Paris and she was single.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: And, uh, you know, she had a one night stand with a guy.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: But like, she remembered what she forgot is that men just love it when we're naked.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: That's it, yeah, yeah, and we are naked and happy to be right.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're so.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: It's the vibe, it's the vibe.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: It's the vibe and I, just since you've been sharing with me about your husband, I will just say my husband sometimes tells me he's like here's what I picture you doing all day.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: While you're up in your office working, I just picture you laying in your bed playing with yourself.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: That's what you're doing, right, that's what I assume you're doing all day yes, yes, honey, nailed yourself, nailed it, I was like, okay, you can go ahead and thank dad, but just like it just gives him all kinds of joy to just think about me pleasuring myself to imagine that.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: yeah, so that's it right.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Like part of the dating conversation should definitely be about masturbation and yeah even successfully, yes, but in an ideal world.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: you know the treasure you are and you're just so excited to share it.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: And then you know your partner because your partner's like right treasure.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Treasure I agree, I agree, I agree.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Herpes or no herpes?
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Herpes or no herpes, well worth it, not a problem.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: No big deal.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's one of the things.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: The question was what do women?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: What are women keeping under wraps?
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Wraps that men, actually, that aren't deal breakers, but we think they're deal breakers.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I actually think that women think that their success means something to a man.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: It's your confidence without controlling them.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: It's the control that's the problem, right.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: It's not the success, it's the controlling nature that's right.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Finance is another one that I think people think is a deal breaker one way or the other, but tends to not be if everything else is good.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Because it's not usually about money.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: You may have issues about money, but it's always deeper than that right Representing some sort of deeper security-oriented issue.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, although I'm not telling women on their second marriages that they need to combine their finances.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Sure, I get that Maybe.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I'll send them to you for a remedy.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a remedy for not wanting to combine your finances with your partner.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that I would tend towards like, if this relationship really meets the 3-H rule, like I would lean towards considering it.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I get it In an ideal world right In an ideal world Right.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: And an economy really is a thing right, like you really do split your economy in half when you get divorced, and that's devastating.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: But my husband and I now my second husband right we have always sort of understood that we grow things, we grow things better together, like so that really works for us.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: But I, I get it Right.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: We didn't come to this marriage with millions.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: You recently referred someone to me to address this herpes piece and so let's unpack that.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: The truth is, if you can make it so someone doesn't have to feel ashamed of slash, disclose, slash, have herpes, I feel like there's just going to be no end to humans who want to be seen by you sign up to work with me so please explain, please explain, so that when I share this podcast, people can hear what the heck we're talking about yeah, okay.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: so if I get too far in the weeds, pull me back, pull me back.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, everyone, get out your notepad.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: She's about to get scientific.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: So a lot of what I'm going to say.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: If you Google it, google is going to literally laugh at you.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: It's going to pop up with a Memoji and it's going to start to giggle, right.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: So you'd have to scroll to the fourth page of Google to validate, or you'd have to ask chat, gpt or someone who is well-versed in alternative medicines.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: So the body was designed to heal itself, and when it's not healing itself and a symptom has become chronic, it means that there's some blocks, something is in the way and has inhibited the body's capacity to do what it was designed to do.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Now this happens to be a very convenient thing in the way that we practice medicine here in the West, because anytime we have an ailment or an illness, they have a medication for that, and then when we have a side effect from that medication, they have a medication for that, and so on and so forth.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: But in a lot of other parts of the world there are a lot wiser forms of approaching illness and wellness.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: In India, in France, homeopathy is a huge chunk of the healthcare system, chunk of the healthcare system.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: In the East, right herbs and acupuncture and family are priorities for maintaining wellness, and anyways, I could go on and on about that.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: So when we contract an illness like herpes, it's a virus and we've been told that there is no clearing that virus from the body.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: In my experience and in the research, you will learn that there is absolutely a way to discharge a lot of subclinical viral load we are all walking around with.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: It is part of why we are all fatigued all the time, because our bodies are not spinning out that viral load, and that is so much of what homeopathy does, is it spins out subclinical viral load.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Now, when we do a herpes test we do a has it doesn't have it test in that does the body recognize the shape of this virus and remember that so that it can mount a defense the next time it gets exposed to it.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: However, if you were doing a PCR test to test viral load from herpes after working with me, you would find that that PCR test drops down to zero, that you have immunity but zero viral load, therefore not transmissible.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Now all of this is discussed in a book that I love to recommend to people, which was written by a double PhD astrophysicist.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: The book is called the Impossible Cure.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Now, I think it's advantageous to maintain your body's immune awareness that it's had an illness, especially if you're dating, because if you get exposed to it again, because so freaking, many people have herpes and various STIs because PS, this whole conversation applies to HPV also.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: So if you know that you have HPV and you are concerned about cervical cancer, yes, we can clear HPV from your body as well.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: So I think there's advantages to allowing your body to remember that you've had herpes and to know how to confront it, right.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: But if you really want to get it out of your body, where zoster viruses hang out in the body is in the nerves, because nerves are hollow and they're great storage places for this genetic material and the body is not keen to kill a nerve just to eradicate a virus because that's painful and dangerous and whatever right.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: But there is so much research and evidence and documented cases of people who have used ozone therapy to eradicate that genetic material from their nerves so that they can test absolutely negative to a herpes test.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Now you will not easily find all this data right.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: It is not mainstream To me.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: That makes me want to do it more, because typically when something isn't mainstream, it means it's right and the information about it has been suppressed.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Thoughts, feelings, feedbacks, reactions.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: So exciting Did.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I get two in the weeks.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: It just makes me feel like anything's possible.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Really it is.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I love it, I love it and I think it's a good note to end on, in the sense that, whatever you think your deal breakers may be people who are watching you're probably wrong, for the right person.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, right For the right person.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Either you can heal that deal breaker or they will love you for it.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: One or the other is possible.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: One or the other is possible.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Don't give up, yeah.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: All right, my darling dear.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us today and to all of our lovely listeners.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Peace, Dear.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Divorce Diary is a podcast by MyCoachJohn.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: You can find more at MyCoachJohncom.