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A Look Back to Our Interview with Al Worden · Made of Stars

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  Speaker 1: Warning.
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  Speaker 2: The following podcast contains an entertaining look at astronomy, physics,
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: and space news throughout the known universe. Listeners have been
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: known to learn about astronomical phenomenon, the scientific method, and
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: expanded vocabulary to include terms like quasar, asterism and uranus. Listen,
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  Speaker 2: that's your own risk.
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  Speaker 3: Go ahead.
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  Speaker 1: When made of stars, made them stars.
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  Speaker 4: Made sizes. When made us stars, you could be from
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  Speaker 4: high they would New Mexicomus.
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  Speaker 3: Where are stars?
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  Speaker 5: When we are made of stars? I'm West Carol, joined
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  Speaker 5: by my good friend doctor Sean Cruising from Columbus State
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  Speaker 5: University's Coca Cola Space Science Center. More than Shawn, Good.
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  Speaker 1: Morning, Less. It's good to be here today. We have
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  Speaker 1: a very special show today, don't we We do.
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  Speaker 5: We're going to take this week and kind of go
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  Speaker 5: back in time.
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  Speaker 1: A little bit.
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  Speaker 5: We did an interview with Apollo fifteen astronaut Al Warden,
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  Speaker 5: who was getting ready to come to Columbus, Georgia, getting
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  Speaker 5: ready to come to the Columbus State University Co Cola
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  Speaker 5: Space Science Center as part of the anniversary for the Challenger,
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  Speaker 5: and he was getting ready to come. We interviewed him
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  Speaker 5: by phone and he has now since passed away back
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  Speaker 5: in twenty twenty.
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  Speaker 1: He was eighty eight years old.
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  Speaker 5: What a cool opportunity that we had to get to
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  Speaker 5: chat with him. And there's two reasons that we're doing this. One,
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  Speaker 5: we wanted to make this interview officially part of Meta Stars,
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  Speaker 5: but we also the fact that he actually flew with
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  Speaker 5: someone of extra significance over the course of this summer,
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  Speaker 5: especially for us, well not just this summer. I mean,
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  Speaker 5: there's a cool event going on this summer that ties
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  Speaker 5: into it. But you guys have lots of artifacts that
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  Speaker 5: connect to al Warden through this other person. So anyway,
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  Speaker 5: I'll just let you talk a little bit about the
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  Speaker 5: experience of having him here in Columbus.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So, al Warden was a crew member on the
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  Speaker 4: Apollo fifteen crew. One of his crewmates was commander of
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  Speaker 4: that mission, Commander David Scott, and Dave Scott, through his
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  Speaker 4: brother Tom, has made numerous donations to us Here at
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  Speaker 4: Coca Cola Space Science Center, we are preserving a collection
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  Speaker 4: of artifacts and memorabilia from astronaut David Scott here at
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  Speaker 4: Space Science Center. And the event that Wes was talking
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  Speaker 4: about is a really cool exhibit of Dave Scott artifacts
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  Speaker 4: that is so big that we couldn't put it on
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  Speaker 4: this in our own exhibit gallery here at Space Science Center.
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  Speaker 4: So we are working with our friends just down the
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  Speaker 4: street Columbus State University's Bo Bartlett Art Center. And it's
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  Speaker 4: a beautiful art gallery just down the street here in
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  Speaker 4: Front Avenue in Columbus, Georgia. And we have so many
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  Speaker 4: more pieces of the Dave Scott collection on display down there,
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  Speaker 4: including photographs of Dave with al Warden. And so that's
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  Speaker 4: why we're going to talk about al Warden right now.
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  Speaker 4: Al Warden was a special guest of ours, as Wes mentioned,
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  Speaker 4: to help commemorate the lives lost on the twenty fifth
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  Speaker 4: anniversary of the Challenger accident. So he came and visited
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  Speaker 4: us here at Space Science Center in twenty eleven for
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  Speaker 4: that event. But really talked a lot about just the
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  Speaker 4: importance of space exploration, the importance to continue space exploration
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  Speaker 4: even when tough things happen. And yes, al Warden told
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  Speaker 4: lots of funny stories about Dave Scott and some very
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  Speaker 4: interesting things that happened aboard the Apollo fifteen mission.
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  Speaker 1: I wish I.
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  Speaker 4: Could tell these stories on air, but you know, people
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  Speaker 4: ask this question a lot. How do you go to
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  Speaker 4: the bathroom in space? And let me just say that
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  Speaker 4: sometimes pieces of equipment get adhered to your body, and
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  Speaker 4: sometimes when you're hanging around with your buddies, you know,
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  Speaker 4: sometimes these pieces of equipment adhere to your body are
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  Speaker 4: still dangling there as you're floating through the spacecraft. And
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  Speaker 4: so the story from al Warden had something to do
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  Speaker 4: with Dave Scott in you know, similar circumstances. So anyway,
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  Speaker 4: really good time when al Warden came to visit us.
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  Speaker 4: I think you'll get a sense of the very colorful
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  Speaker 4: and fun personality that al Warden had from his comments
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  Speaker 4: in this interview. And you know, on behalf of WES
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  Speaker 4: and I, we really hope you enjoy this interview with
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  Speaker 4: Colonel al Warden.
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  Speaker 1: A member of the Apollo fifteen crew.
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  Speaker 4: How are you doing, sir. I'm very glad to have
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  Speaker 4: you with us this morning. It's quite an honor to
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  Speaker 4: be able to speak to you this morning. On behalf
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  Speaker 4: of Columbus State University and the region. I'll like to
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  Speaker 4: just welcome you, give you an early welcome to the
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  Speaker 4: city of Columbus. You're gonna be coming here and and
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  Speaker 4: joining us for an event commemorating the twenty fifth anniversary
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  Speaker 4: of the of the Challenger and UH and also just
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  Speaker 4: to talk a lot about your experiences as Apollo astronaut.
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  Speaker 4: We're really grateful for your for your time and for
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  Speaker 4: your visits.
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  Speaker 3: Happy to be here. But I got a question for you.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, what's that?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I'm I'm a little confused about what to wear.
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  Speaker 3: Do I wear my Tommy bahamas or do I wear
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  Speaker 3: my Eskimo parka?
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  Speaker 1: Right now?
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  Speaker 4: The Eskimo parka actually might be slightly more appropriated if
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  Speaker 4: you know this. We've been having a series of kind
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: of ice storms and sleet and nonsense going on here
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  Speaker 4: in the South that we're not terribly accustomed to. And
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  Speaker 4: it's a little bit chilly out there today. But I
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  Speaker 4: think by the time you're going to visit the next
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  Speaker 4: couple of days, I think it's gonna warm up. Actually,
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  Speaker 4: Wes is the radio guy, maybe he knows the weather.
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  Speaker 5: It couldn't hurt to wear both actually, and just wear
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  Speaker 5: the parka over the top. I think that way, you know,
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  Speaker 5: layers is always the way to go.
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  Speaker 3: No, I take care of it. I just poking you
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  Speaker 3: a little bit, So I'm very pleased, kind of excited
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  Speaker 3: to be coming up there.
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  Speaker 4: Well, we're really really excited to have you coming. And
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  Speaker 4: like I said, it's just an honor for for not
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  Speaker 4: only me, but for the whole Columbus community to welcome you.
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  Speaker 4: And we're really looking forward to hear what you have
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  Speaker 4: to say in the next couple of days here.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I will be there and if my voice holds out,
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  Speaker 3: i'll talk.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, that sounds good. We'll have the lemon Tea standing by.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, can you tell us just a little bit
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  Speaker 4: about and explain to the to the radio audience just
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  Speaker 4: a little bit about what your job was as command
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  Speaker 4: module pilot for Apollo fifteen.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure, I was the command module pilot. There there
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  Speaker 3: are three people on a flight. Three guys on a
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  Speaker 3: flight going to the Moon. There's the commander in my case,
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  Speaker 3: that was Dave Scott. He is the guy basically who
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  Speaker 3: flies the lunar module down to the service and then
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  Speaker 3: back up at the lunar orbit, and of course he's
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  Speaker 3: the overall manager of the entire flight. And then there's
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  Speaker 3: the lunar module pilot, who is basically the systems engineer.
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  Speaker 3: He doesn't really fly anything, he's there to over the
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  Speaker 3: shoulders of you know, Dave when he's in a lunar module,
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  Speaker 3: and Dave and I when we're in the command module.
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  Speaker 3: My job as command module pilot was to fly everybody
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  Speaker 3: out there, get squared away in lunar orbit, get them
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  Speaker 3: in the lunar module, close the hatches, let them on DOC,
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  Speaker 3: and go down to the surface. Then I stayed in
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  Speaker 3: lunar orbit by myself for three days while they were
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  Speaker 3: down on the surface.
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  Speaker 1: What was that like? What was that like?
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  Speaker 3: Back then? I? Then I fly everybody back home?
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  Speaker 5: What was that like? Three days just there alone?
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  Speaker 3: Wonderful? Absolutely the best part of the flight.
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  Speaker 5: What sort of things were going through your head while
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  Speaker 5: you're there alone?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I, that's the that's the funny part of it.
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  Speaker 3: Not much. I was so damn busy doing all these
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  Speaker 3: science and take a photograph. I photographed about twenty five
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  Speaker 3: percent of the Moon.
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  Speaker 1: That's fantastic.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I did a lot of did a lot of photography.
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  Speaker 3: I had a I had a quite an extensive array
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  Speaker 3: of remote sensors X ray, infrared, microwave scanned the lunar surface.
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  Speaker 3: And then I had two cameras. One was a very
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  Speaker 3: high resolution cameras as a matter of fact, that camera,
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  Speaker 3: it was a ball opticon camera. I had about eleven
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  Speaker 3: hundred feet of film and it was the camera that
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  Speaker 3: was designed for the original YouTube program back here in
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  Speaker 3: the country in the fifties. We were able to carry
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  Speaker 3: it because the Air Force had declared it obsolete. It
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  Speaker 3: was a fantastic camera. I could take pictures of objects
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  Speaker 3: down to about four feet from the sixty miles high
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  Speaker 3: I was in lunar orbit.
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  Speaker 4: That's incredible, pretty fantastic cameraz And.
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  Speaker 3: I did a lot of personal photography. I carried, of course,
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  Speaker 3: we carried the traditional hassleblads and on my flat. I
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  Speaker 3: also talked now into letting me take a small Nikon camera,
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  Speaker 3: which was pretty unusual camera because it had a lens
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  Speaker 3: it was like one point zero one, so like ninety
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  Speaker 3: nine point nine percent of the light went got through
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  Speaker 3: the lens. Then I carried an Eastman Kodak extra chrome
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  Speaker 3: that was rated at five thousand. Now you know, you
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  Speaker 3: know when you go into a store and you buy
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  Speaker 3: you buy film, you get something like two fifty three
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  Speaker 3: hundred four or something like that. But I carried film
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  Speaker 3: that was five thousand. The speed was five thousand.
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  Speaker 1: That's amazingly sensitive film. That's awesome.
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  Speaker 3: And so yeah, we could get into all kinds of
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  Speaker 3: discussions about what kinds of things there are out there
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  Speaker 3: to take pictures of in very very low light levels,
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  Speaker 3: some pretty amazing things. And I'm sure Sean's familiar with
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  Speaker 3: all these, but I took pictures of the L five
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  Speaker 3: and I took pictures of the Gagan shine stuff like that,
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  Speaker 3: and you know, Seohn can probably explain all that, but
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  Speaker 3: they're very low light level for phenomena that we're able
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  Speaker 3: to capture on the flight. So I was kind of
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  Speaker 3: rewarding because a lot of theories that that astronomers and
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  Speaker 3: physicists have we were sort of proven on the flight.
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  Speaker 4: That's that's very incredible. That's that's an amazing contribution of
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  Speaker 4: the of your time up there in orbit.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to I have to say, and and Sean,
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: you can hang in there with me on this. But
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: you know, there are there are There are basically five
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: equilibrium points between the Earth and the Moon there and
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: and they're they're called the L points. Three of them
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  Speaker 3: around the line between the center of the Earth and
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  Speaker 3: the Moon, and two are offset about sixty degrees uh
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  Speaker 3: Two of two of the l points are basically stable points.
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  Speaker 3: In other words, if you were to throw something into
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  Speaker 3: those into one of those points out there, they'd stay there.
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  Speaker 3: The forces are such that if they were if they
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  Speaker 3: were disturbed, they'd come back into that point. So the
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: idea was that if that's the case, there should be
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: a dust cloud out there, and in fact we got
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: be very a little light level. Uh, and we have
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  Speaker 3: actually got some pictures of that.
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  Speaker 4: So what do you estimate these are the lagrange points
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  Speaker 4: that are around the moon. What do you estimate the
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  Speaker 4: size of some of the biggest debris that you saw
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  Speaker 4: within that little collect can't.
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  Speaker 3: You can't see size. All you see is kind of
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  Speaker 3: a cloud. And you have to understand that with this
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  Speaker 3: very very fast film, I was taking sort of like
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  Speaker 3: five to ten second exposures. You can't keep a spacecraft
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  Speaker 3: that steady that long, so there's always smear on the
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  Speaker 3: on the picture. So we actually never got any size information.
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  Speaker 3: You can just see a cloud out there.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're you're basically seeing enough sunlight reflected to
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  Speaker 4: verify that that stuff is out there and actually sitting
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  Speaker 4: at that point.
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  Speaker 3: So same way with the Gagan shine.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.
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  Speaker 3: Uh, and and and west. I don't know you know
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  Speaker 3: what the Gagan shine is or not. I'm sure Sean does.
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  Speaker 3: But the Gagan shine is a is a is a
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  Speaker 3: ring of small object debris left over from the formation
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: of the Solar System that's beyond the outer planet and
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: people have recorded it in the past. If you were
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: to go to the top of the let's say, the
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Andes Mountains in South America, it goes high as you
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: get get us high in the atmosphere. Again, with a
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: very good telescope, people have been able to see it,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: see the sun reflected off those small particles out there.
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  Speaker 5: And those are some of the pictures we got to
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  Speaker 5: I was gonna guess either that or a German musical instrument.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds like it, doesn't it.
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  Speaker 5: That's a Glockenspiel, though, isn't it.
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  Speaker 4: Listen, Colonel Warden, you rode above the most powerful launch
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: vehicle ever built, the Saturn five. That's just an amazing machine.
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  Speaker 4: Can you tell us what it was like to lift
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  Speaker 4: off in the Saturn five?
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  Speaker 3: You know, that's a common question. You know, there have
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: been too many movies and too many television shows where
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  Speaker 3: you see a launch and a guy's face all gets
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: distorted and his cheeks flow back and all that. None
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  Speaker 3: of that happens when you have to understand that we
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: had the largest launch, or the heaviest launch in the program.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: We were about seven million pounds when we launched, and
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: we had a thrust of about seven and a half
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: million pounds to get off the path. Well, in a
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: situation like that, when you lift off, you lift very
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: slowly because you only have a little bit of excess thrust.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: And then as you as you burn out the fuel,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: you get lighter and you accelerate, so that at the
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: end of the first stage burnout we were doing about
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: four and a half cheese. But the lift off itself
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: is very very slow and very smooth. In fact, it's
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: so slow that we actually had to program the launch
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: vehicle to chilt away from the gantry to make sure
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: that if there was a little wind blow from the south,
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: we didn't get blown into It. Took twelve seconds to
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  Speaker 3: past the gantry, So it's a very very slow lift off,
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: no g's and then and then the g forces build
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: up as you accelerate because you're reducing the weight of
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: the launch.
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: People, are you experiencing a tremendous sounds. That is that
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: things lifting off with that things fire.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Now, No, we got very little sound. You got to understand,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: we were like three hundred and fifty feet ahead of
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: the engines and they're pointed in the other direction, so
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: you don't really hear, you hear, you don't really hear
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: much when you're when when you're launching, you get there's
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: a certain point in the launch projector when once you
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: get above the launch pad where you get a little
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: rebound noise where the rocket the noise of the rockets
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: hits the Earth and bounces back up. Got a little
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: bit of that, but that didn't last very long. Basically,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: what we heard was kind of strange stuff. We heard
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: the fuel rushing through the lines. That was about it.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: And you got to understand, the fuel lines on this
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: thing are eighteen inches in diameter, and we burned fuel
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: at the rate of about somewhere around eighteen thousand pounds
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: per second. So there's a lot of fuel moving through
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: that Stage one. And because it's a solid structure, that
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: noise is transmitted through the solid part of the spacecraft
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: up into the know or the launchicicle, up into the spacecraft.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: So we could hear that the fuel We could hear
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: the fuel boost pump running outside of that, there wasn't
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: a lot of noise. There's a little vibration from when
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: we went through what we call max Q, which is
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: where you get the most the peak of the dynamic
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: PRESSU run outside of the spacecraft. We can hear a
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: little bit of creaking and a little shaking when we
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: went through that, But that was about all.
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: Now what was it like to be selected as an
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: Apollo astronaut at that time in US history?
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: Oh? That was a thrill. I I applied for the
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: program in December, and you know, they did a paperwork
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: study and then we I think in February went down
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: San Antonio for physicals. Were about I think there were
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: over eight hundred that applied that were all basically qualified.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: There were seventy five of us who went down and
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: take physicals, and out of that there were fifty left left.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: And those fifty in March I believe, went down to
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: Houston for interviews and to take some kind of oral
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: and written Nick Damns, and then out of that they
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: picked nineteen of us. I'll never forget the phone call
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: I got from DEEC Slayton when he said, he got
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: right to the point. I mean, Deeke was not a
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: man to mince words. Then he said, hey, you want
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: to come down to work for me? What am I
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: supposed to say? No? Got it all started. That was
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: a great day. You know. I walked on air for
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: most of the day and then I got down to Houston,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: got in the office and found that well, I wasn't
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: quite what I thought it was.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Did they have you hit the ground running? And uh?
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: And it was kind of from the very beginning.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well we sort of hit the ground as we
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: want to say, we're we're greenie right. Lots of older
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: guys that were there and and a lot of them
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: have already made flights and uh, and we weren't good
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: for much at you know, when we first got there.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: I'll never forget walking into Wally Schiraz's office. He was
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: my flight commander and uh, he's sitting behind his desk
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  Speaker 3: and I walked in and introduced myself and we were
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: chatting about this. Then he has a thing and that.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: I don't know whether you've ever met Wally or not, Tron,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: I have not.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I have not had that honor.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Oh what a fantastic guy. He was. He was one
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: of my best friends. But at the time he was
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: a Navy captain and I was an Air Force captain.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: So I let him know that I figured that we're
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: the same rank and that I didn't really have to
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: respond instantly whenever he told me to do something because
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: we're sort of peers. Well, there's a vast difference between
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: a Navy captain and Air Force captain. So next thing
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: I found I was walking down the hall getting him
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: a cup of coffee. But we became very, very close friends.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: But that's what it was like. The new guys in
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: the office didn't come for much. Once we got to
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: the office, we were told and we found out very quickly,
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: and we were told that you're not really an astronaut
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: until you made a flight. So anybody who hadn't made
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: a flight, hey, they did all the drudge work.
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: More were made of stars. Right after this, let's talk
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: about another day. Obviously that was huge, and that would
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: be the day of the Challenger accident.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of.
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: Can you describe sort of your feelings from that day and.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Where you were.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you where I was. My wife and I
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: lived down in Palm beach gardens. Uh, and we had
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: a we had a small business up in Orlando. We
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: pulled out of our house, went to a gas station
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: to fill up with gas to go up to Orlando.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: And as I'm standing there pumping gas, the Challenger was
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: launched and I could see the whole thing. Uh, just
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it. Total shock. I knew that this
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: thing had really gone bad because I could see the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: plumes from the solid boosters and the rest of it,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: you know, and it was just, oh, it was it
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: was like a big bombit going off. So we went
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: back a home and and uh got the TV on
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: and and saw the television, you know, review of that
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: of that disaster. And we got back in our car
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: and we drove to Cape Canaveral where all the families were,
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: to see if there's anything we could do for him.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: So we were there that day and I think the
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: next day, uh, you know, just just to do whatever
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: we could. It was it was the most shocking thing
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: I've ever seen.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: That's that's a really really tragic day. And of course
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: I have my memories of it too. And uh, I
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: was working for my father, who was a newspaper editor
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: at the time, and he came in to tell me
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: that that that had just happened. And and the amazing
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: thing I think, you know, America largely wasn't watching. You know,
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: we we had all gotten complacent with, uh with spaceflight
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: at that point, and uh, you know it really it
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: brought it home just how realistic and how dangerous and
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: how brave an endeavor it really is for astronauts to
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: go to space.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: There there is risk. People tend to uh downplay the
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: risk after we've had a few successful whites. We went
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: through the same thing in the Apollo program, you know,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: along towards well. Our flight was a little different because
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: we were the first really scientific flight in the program,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: and we did get a lot of attention, but there
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: was no question that the interest in the country was
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: dropping very quickly as we got up to Paul sixteen
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: or Paul seventeen. And I think that's one of the
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: reasons that eighteen, nineteen and twenty were canceled. In addition
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: to they needed the money to put into the Shuttle,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: but there's no question that there was the interest was dropping.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: People don't have very long memories in this country, and
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of strange. There's more interest in
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: our space program in England in my mind than there
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: is in this country. That the Europeans really really know
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: their space history and they know the people, and you know,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: they'll come from all over to see if you show
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: up in this country, it's a little bit different.
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: Do you think maybe we just take it for granted
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: sort of the way we think. So we took risk
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: for granted with challenge before the challenge, yeah, I think so.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Of course, the interest peaked again when we had the
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: next accident. But you know, the Shuttle people, I think
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: people think that the Shuttle is like an airplane. You
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: just take off and you come back and all that,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: and it's a pretty risky business. As a matter of fact,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, the Shuttle is a lot more risky
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: than Apollo was.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the Saturn five itself was certainly an extremely reliable
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: launch vehicle, and the Shuttle is very tricky. It's it's
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: a very complicated machine.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Well, I think, I think, in my opinion, the basic
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: architecture of the Shuttle lends itself to being more risky. See,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: we had centerline trust on them on the Saturn five.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: If we lost, as a matter of fact, and I
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: think it was on Apollo eight they lost the center
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: engine and they kept going. Okay, it took them a
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: little longer to get into orbit, but you know, everything
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: was on. You know, it did what it was supposed
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: to do. If you lose one engine on the Shuttle,
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: you're done. You can't recover from that. And that's part
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: of the problem when I say it's risky. Everything has
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: to work on the Shuttle. With us, we could lose
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: an engine and still keep going.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's amazing.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: All boils down to basic design.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Of course we had back in those days, and and
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: you know, a lot up in your area there over
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: in Huntsville, we had a group of engineers and designers
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: that really knew what they were doing, and you know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: they basically designed the thing, the first one, and build it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: I'm always impressed by looks back of the history of
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: that of how fast they were able to assemble all
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: of that and in such a short time.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: It's just really amazing that they.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Went from from concept to design to actual flight in
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: just an amazing flew.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: The first one in about six years. Yeah, that's phenomenal.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: It really is.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Listen, I'm gonna change directions just a little bit. Here
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: at Klumba State University, at the Coca Cola Space Science Center,
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: which is owned and operated by the university, we have
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: what's called the Challenger Learning Center, which I'm I'm sure
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: you're familiar with these. There's a network across the United
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: States of these Challenger Learning Centers. They're an educational facility
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: set up by the families of the Challenger astronauts as
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: a living.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Legacy for them.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: Tell us what you think are the most valuable aspects
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: of educating children about the space program, both you know,
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: in the Apollo era and in the Shuttle era.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Well, in my mind, the discussion about getting kids excited
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: about space and teaching them about space and what's happened
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: in where we are is just it's just the foundation
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: for getting those kids to go to school. I think
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: the most important thing out of the Space program is
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: the motivation, and it gives the young kids to go
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: to school, to stay in school, and to do well
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: in school if they you know, because well it used
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: to be anyway, a young kid would say, I want
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: to be in the program, I want to be an astronaut,
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: I want to be working in with NASA. I want
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: to be somewhere in NASA. And to do that, they
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: had to go to school and they had to get
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: a good education, they had to go into college, they
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: had to get advanced degrees some of them. And I
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: think that was a tremendous motivational factor for young people
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: going through school. That situation has changed a little bit now,
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: but the Challenger Centers and the Sally Ride Organization, there
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: are several of those out around that do a tremendous
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: job of motivating young kids, not just for space, but
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: for advanced education, and I think that's wonderful. As a
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: matter of fact, one of my functions down here is
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: the chairman of the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation, and we give
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: out scholarships to the best and the brightest. We picked
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: the pope percent of the students in junior or senior
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: year and we give them a really really nice scholarship
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: check to help them get through school and to help
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: them get on through school because we are concerned, we
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: are convinced that only that prop level of students out
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: of that group is going to come the people who
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: are going to do all these things for us in
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: the future. Not just your runner, the middle student, but
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: the ones who are really on top. So, no question,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: education is absolutely critical to what the country does in
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: the future. And it's not just a question of getting
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: lots and lots of kids through school. It's the question
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: of getting them through school well prepared for the future.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I'm very glad you mentioned the asphalt.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: Get me on my soapbox.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I want you on your soapbox.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: That's exactly where we want you because that's the that's
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: the endeavor that we participate in every day at the
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Coca Cola Space Science Centers to do exactly what you said,
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: is to try to inspire the next generation of scientists
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: and engineers. But more than that, to be able to
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: use children's natural curiosity and excitement about space to get
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: them to simply, you know, learn, learn as much as
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: they can and do as well as they possibly can
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: in school.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. Uh yeah, we we give our scholarships only
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: to science and engineering students. We were not interested in philosophy, politics, economics,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. We're really we're really concerned with
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: the bedrock engineering and science that needs to be done.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: That's not to say that the others that the other
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: disciplines are not just as important. It's just that we're
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: oriented towards science and engineering. So that's what the direction
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: we go.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: And I just want to share with the radio audience
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: the fact that your visit here is in the name
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: of the Astronaut Scholarship Fund, and some of the proceeds
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: from your visit are going to be going to that
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: scholarship fund. So a tremendously great program and we're really
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: proud to be able to help support that and to
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: help publicize that here on the radio today.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much. This year we're going to
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: be giving out twenty five scholarships at ten thousand dollars each.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fantastic.
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: As the parent of a college student who is in engineering,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: we'd like to thank you for making those kinds of
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: opportunities available to our students.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Well, as you know, the name of the game to
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: do that is the raise of the money. So a
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: lot of us are very busy doing that, and again.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: We're very happy to help participate.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: In that too. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing the
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: center too.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: That's great, that's great.
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: More we're made of stars. Right after this.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: Listen, we understand you have a book coming out. So
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: it's called Falling to Earth. It's coming out in the
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: summer of twenty eleven. What can you tell us.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: About your book?
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Okay, it's coming out in July of this year. It's
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: coming out through the Smithsonian Press. Smithsonian Air and Space
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Museum is the publisher. It's basically about that's an autobiography,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: let's be honest about it. But it focuses on what
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: we did getting ready for the flight, what we did
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: in the flight, in the aftermath of the flight. The
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: aftermath of the flight is probably a big part of
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: the book. If you go back and research your history,
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: you'll know that we kind of got ourselves in trouble
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: with some postal covers, and so a lot of the
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: book is how did that happen? What was the story?
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: And what we do afterwards? And you know, what did
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: you do? You know, you sue the US government one
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: and all that. Uh So it's it's it's that kind
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: of story. But basically it's an autobiography. You can anybody
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: listening to the radio, you can. You can see this
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: on my website. All I have to do is go
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: to Elworden dot com and there's a button on that
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: that takes you straight to a picture of the cover
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: of the book, and on that page our buttons to
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: go to Amazon dot Com, Barnes and Noble and Borders
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: where you can pre order the book. So we're we're
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: kind of getting ourselves set up for the for the
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: publication of the book.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic. That sounds like a great book.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: And I know a lot of people out there in
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: the audience today will want to be doing that very thing,
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: getting online and pre ordering your book.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we hope so. And I'm looking forward to
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: a rather substantial book tour one the book comes out.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Will probably open that tour at the Smithsonian sometime in July,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: and from there it's kind of up to people at
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: Smithsonian where we go, but we'll probably hit most of
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: the science centers around the country.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: That's fantastic. Listen, one last question for you, John. You know,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: you being a very central part of the Apollo program
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: and things, and being being affiliated and associated with with
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: with the exploration of space and with aerospace engineering in general,
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: give us your overall impression of the current direction of
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: NASA and the future of human spaceflight.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm not sure you want me to talk about
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: that on the radio. Well, I'm going to tell you
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: I I think we're making a We're making it. The
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: country is making a huge mistake. I think the I
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: think the analysis that they're doing is based on bad information.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I think they're looking in the wrong in the wrong
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: place to find justification for the program. But in my opinion,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: in the long run, it probably won't make any difference,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: because we're going to go out there anyway. Sometimes it
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: took a long time for Columbus to get to the country,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: to get over here. It takes a long time to
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: build yourself up to do explorations and that sort of thing.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: That's the nature of the human mind. And I think
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: that even if even if the program is going to
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: be slowed down for a while, you know, we're looking
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: at a long time in the future. Let's say one
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: hundred years from now, what are we going to be doing. Well,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: we'll probably be going back to the moon, go to Mars.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: We're going to go to a lot of places that
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: are very difficult for us to do now but be
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: easier than so. I have a very long term view
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: of all of this. I think what we're doing right
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: now is is a disaster in terms of losing a
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: technical cadre of people who can do these very sophisticated things.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: And I think the Cape is going to get hit hard. Uh,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna see some what what's euphemistically called
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: privatization of space, which is to me a joke. I
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: don't think any spacecraft we've ever flown has been built
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: by anybody other than private industry, So that's kind of
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: a that's kind of a missing over to me. Uh,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: maybe it's the right thing to the back off on
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: the Constellation program because what they did is they just
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: kind of went back to an apolotype spacecraft and and
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: and the and the launch system is kind of the same.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: Maybe there's something better out there. I don't know. Uh,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm sorry to see that happening, because I
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: think the technology that came out of the program has
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: been so critical the how well this country has on
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: technically and industrially. And you know, all the things that
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: have happened, the things that have been invented, the things
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: that have been designed and put together since the start
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: of the space program have made this country as successful
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: as it is today. And I hate to see that
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: that kind of go away, because we need that that
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: that technology research and innovation and design that comes out
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: of a program like the Space program.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: That's that's one of the points that we get to
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: emphasize at the Space Science Center all the time is
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: the contributions that NASA has made to the to the
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: overall technology advancement of the entire nation.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: And so, Sean, I'll tell you one very simple thing.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Years and years ago, there was a there was a
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: hair brained idea that you could make things out of
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: silicon that would work like what say, vacuum tubes. So
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: the silicon chip was invented, it was it was paid
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: for out of Advanced Research Projects agency funds. Silicon chips
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: were developed and made and we started getting solid state devices,
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: and that made the Space program possible because what it
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: did is it reduced the weight. You could get the
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: same you can get the same performance out of a device,
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: but reduced the weight by a factor of ten or
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: twenty or thirty. With solid state devices. Those silicon chips
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: now find their way into everything that we see around us.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: And that was all that all came through the program.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: What's the next big wave I don't know, but when
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: you start chopping off the research funds for technological devices
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: like the silicon chip, then you begin to put yourself
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: in a position where you're not going to be competitive.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: I think so, yes, I think the spinoffs from program
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: are extremely important. So it's kind of a two headed thing.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: One is the desire of humans to explore, and the
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: other is the spin offs technologically that we get from
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: developing the machines that allow that kind of exploration that
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: make our industrial base here so successful.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, sir well, and honestly, I.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: Know I'm speaking to the choir.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Though you are, but you're also speaking to this radio
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: audience out there, and so they need they also need
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: to hear opinions of leaders like yourself who have actually
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: been involved with those kinds of things and have a
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: very different perspective than that we get on the street
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: corner here in Columbus.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Right right, No, I understand, Yeah, very good.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you,
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: Colonel Warden for speaking with us here on the radio today.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: We're very, very tremendously excited to have you coming to
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: Columbus State University and to the Coca Cola Space Science Center,
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: and we're looking forward to meeting with you very soon.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Okay, well I'll be there tomorrow.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: That sounds great. Thank you, sir, appreciate it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Kate great, Thanks, Wes, thanks, thanks.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: An, Thank you very much. Bye bye bye.
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: And that was our interview from twenty eleven with Colonel
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: al Wardon. What a fun uh just what a great
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: chance to chat with him. But just a fun guy.
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: I mean, you can just tell personality wise, and when
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: you talk about some of these astronauts we've had the
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: privilege of meeting and interviewing and talking with over the years,
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: their perspective on so many different things because they've experienced
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: things that none of us will ever get an opportunity
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: to maybe Katy Perry, but not the rest of us.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Well, the one thing that Katy Perry can't tell us
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: is what it sounded like when you're sitting the top
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: of a Saturn five rocket ready to go blast off
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: to the moon. Of course you did hear those comments
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: from al Warden.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Here.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: The other thing about al Warden, he's one of only
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: twenty four people to have ever flown to the Moon,
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: and he orbited the Moon seventy four times while he
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: was commanding the com module that was known as Endeavor
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: on the Apollo fifteen missions. So he is an extraordinary life.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: He had an extraordinary set of accomplishments before he ever
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: became an astronaut. And one of the other cool things
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: about him doesn't get remembered often enough maybe is he
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: was close personal friends with mister Rogers. And yes, I
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: do mean that mister Rogers of the neighborhood. Colonel Warden
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: appeared on mister Rogers neighborhood on more than one occasion,
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: so they were actually good friends. It's led into some
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: very interesting interviews with mister Rogers.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: So if you like this.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Kind of stuff, if you're interested in the Apollo missions,
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: and you want to see some actual memorabilia from David Scott,
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: commander of Apollo fifteen, we do have it on display
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: this summer. Friends a big collection of it at the
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: bo Bartlett Center, the art gallery just down the street
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: from the Space Science Center.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: If you go there and see that special.
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: Collection, you can take a selfie with a little astronaut
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: placard that's sitting right up on their counter, and then
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: you come down to the Space Scigence Center. After you've
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: done that, show us the selfie, we'll give you a
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: discounted admission five dollars in for everybody in your party
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: with one photo from the Bow Bartlett Center. So a
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: great deal to visit a couple of fantastic facilities here
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: at Columbus State University this summer. Come see us at
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: the Bow Bartlett Center and the Coca Cola Space Science
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: Center in Columbus, Georgia.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: Sean and I thank you for listening, and we'll do
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: this again next week. Overhead Door Company of Columbus has
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