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Facebook Whistleblower Makes Shock Claim About Mark Zuckerberg During Senate Testimony · Elon Musk Podcast

• 0:00
  Welcome back to the Elon Musk Podcast.
• 0:02
  I'm thrilled to share some exciting news with you over the
• 0:05
  next two weeks. We're evolving.
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  shaping our world. You'll still get the latest
• 0:14
  insights on Elon Musk, plus so much more.
• 0:17
  So stay tuned for our official relaunch coming soon.
• 0:21
  Senator Blumenthal, if you're ready, I'll turn it over to you.
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  Thanks very much. Mr. Chairman.
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  In order to operate in China, the Communist Party requires
• 0:31
  American companies to register with authorities and host
• 0:35
  servers inside the country. And I think it's pretty well
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  known that Chinese law requires that security services are
• 0:44
  allowed access to any data hosted within the country.
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  Did any of Facebook's security team or its engineers raise
• 0:58
  concerns to management about Americans private information
• 1:03
  being exposed to Chinese spying? Yes, Senator, they did.
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  How did they do that? They, they documented their
• 1:11
  concern in a number of ways. They they noted that this would
• 1:17
  happen, that the Chinese would get access to the data.
• 1:21
  And they also noted this their concern in in, in other
• 1:26
  discussions and other documentation saying, you know,
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  my red line as a security engineer is to not be
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  comfortable with this, but my red line is not Mark
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  Zuckerberg's red. Line.
• 1:40
  Maybe you can explain what you mean by that.
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  The engineer was saying that they were not comfortable with
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  the way the the China project was structured that would allow
• 1:55
  the Chinese Communist Party to potentially access American
• 1:58
  citizens data. And but in saying that, they
• 2:02
  noted that, you know that that's a red line for me as a security
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  engineer. That's not Mark Zuckerberg's red
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  line. Did you sense he had any red
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  line? I did not.
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  If he did, you don't know what it was.
• 2:16
  I don't. If you have more information
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  related to these spying risks, would you be willing to share it
• 2:24
  with a committee? I would, Senator.
• 2:27
  And Mark Zuckerberg was knowledgeable about the
• 2:33
  planning. And do you know whether he was
• 2:37
  knowledgeable about the risks as well?
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  My understanding is that the the risk is the hardest part of the
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  plan, so it's unthinkable that he was not aware of the risk.
• 2:49
  Nothing happened here without his approval and knowledge.
• 2:53
  This was a project unlike any other project I worked on during
• 2:56
  my time at Meta in that it was so centrally LED by Mark
• 3:02
  Zuckerberg and he was so personally invested in this
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  project. He learnt Mandarin, He travelled
• 3:11
  to China more than any other country.
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  He had weekly Mandarin sessions with employees.
• 3:21
  And this was, it's, it's hard to overstate how different this
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  project was to any other project I experienced in my many years
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  at the company. So there would be no credibility
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  to his denying that he knew about the risks, he knew about
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  the concerns raised by his engineers and his China team,
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  and he was intimately involved in not only the planning and the
• 3:48
  engineering, but also in taking those risks.
• 3:54
  Senator, he was he was traveling to Beijing.
• 3:59
  In the documents submitted to the subcommittee, Facebook
• 4:03
  appears to have been willing to provide the data of users in
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  Hong Kong to the Chinese government at a time when pro
• 4:11
  democracy protesters were opposing Beijing's crackdown.
• 4:17
  Is that impression correct? And how did Facebook treat
• 4:23
  Taiwan or Hong Kong? So that impression is correct.
• 4:29
  And one of the more surprising things is that as part of the
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  censorship tool that was developed, there were virality
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  counters. So anytime a piece of content
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  got over 10,000 views, that would automatically trigger it
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  being reviewed by what they called the chief editor.
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  And what was particularly surprising is that the virality
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  counters were not just installed, but activated in Hong
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  Kong and also in Taiwan. Let me ask you, I raised in my
• 5:14
  remarks, and I know that a number of other colleagues did
• 5:19
  as well, the record of misrepresentation and deceit.
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  One of our former colleagues, Senator Leahy, asked Mark
• 5:28
  Zuckerberg in 2018 whether Facebook would comply with
• 5:32
  Chinese censorship and surveillance demand.
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  He even asked if Facebook had built censorship tools to enter
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  the Chinese market, and Zuckerberg responded, I'm
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  quoting because Facebook has been blocked in China since
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  2009. We are not in a position to know
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  exactly how the government would seek to apply its laws and
• 5:55
  regulations on content were we permitted to offer our service
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  to Chinese users. Miss Wynnell Williams, was that
• 6:05
  accurate? That is not accurate.
• 6:08
  You know, hundreds of decisions had been made, and by 2018,
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  they'd been in dialogue directly with the Chinese Communist Party
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  for four years. The fact is, by 2018, Facebook
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  built, it even turned on censorship and surveillance
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  tools that it developed. It developed for Chinese
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  security officials, correct? It developed and those Chinese
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  Communist Party officials tested the censorship tool and would
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  give feedback and say this needs to change or we need this or we
• 6:47
  need confidence that you can capture images and and filter
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  images we don't want seen it. You know, we talk a lot about
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  1984. Facebook developed a virility
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  counter tool that directed any posts of over 10,000 views to be
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  reviewed by an Orwellian named quote UN quote chief editor.
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  Is that correct? That's correct.
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  And was the chief editor's geographic reach limited to
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  mainland China, or did they plan to cover other other location?
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  They plan to cover Hong Kong and Taiwan as my understanding.
• 7:29
  So their surveillance operation was directed at Taiwan?
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  That's my understanding, Senator.
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  And Hong Kong. That's my understanding.
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  Was the editor in chief's or the chief editor's power limited to
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  reviewing viral posts? Oh no, it's extensive power.
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  The chief editor would be able to turn off the the entire
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  service in specific regions, for example Xinjiang, or would also
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  be able to turn off or or manage the service on significant
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  anniversaries like the anniversary of Tiananmen Square.
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  So the chief editor, a creation of Facebook, was an Orwellian
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  sensor that applied to locations outside mainland China, to
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  Taiwan and Hong Kong, to people not within the legal
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  jurisdiction of China, but also obviously the Chinese
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  themselves. And it was designed and
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  implemented by Mehta and Mark Zuckerberg.
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  Correct, Senator. Even though its very existence
• 8:54
  was denied before this committee in 2018.
• 9:00
  That's correct, Senator. Silicon Valley companies are
• 9:07
  famous, as you know, for their moon shot programs such as
• 9:12
  Google X. In recent years, Mark Zuckerberg
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  spent billions of dollars on the metaverse and AI.
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  He even named or renamed the company as part of a pivot to
• 9:23
  focus on that technology. Did Facebook engage in any moon
• 9:29
  shot efforts in China and were these efforts walled off or
• 9:34
  protected from the Communist Party?
• 9:38
  And they did, Senator, and I'd be happy to follow up with the
• 9:42
  committee on this point. You'd prefer to follow up
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  privately? Just one last question.
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  I'm interested in how much of A national champion Meta actually
• 9:55
  is for the United States. Did Facebook share information
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  about its facial recognition, artificial intelligence models
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  and other sensitive technologies to Chinese security officials?
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  In other words, did it share that significant technology
• 10:11
  regarding facial recognition and other surveillance methods?
• 10:18
  Look, the The greatest trick Mark Zuckerberg ever pulled was
• 10:22
  wrapping the American flag around himself and calling
• 10:25
  himself a patriot and saying he didn't offer services in China
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  while he spent the last decade building an $18 billion business
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  there. And he wrapped the flag around
• 10:35
  himself, even as he disclosed sensitive technologies that
• 10:40
  enabled the Chinese to gain the upper hand on surveilling its
• 10:46
  citizens, but also the upper hand in engaging with us.
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  And he continues to wrap the flag around himself as we move
• 10:54
  into the next era of artificial intelligence.
• 10:57
  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
• 10:59
  Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I am
• 11:04
  delighted. Hey, thank you so much for
• 11:05
  listening today. I really do appreciate your
• 11:07
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• 11:31
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• 11:34
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