Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Kristen Modafferi Pt. One

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Kristen Modafferi Pt. One · The Path Went Chilly

0:29
Welcome back to The Pathwent Chili. I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm
0:33
Ashley. Let's dive right into this week's case. June twenty third, nineteen
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ninety seven, San Francisco, California. After completing her shift at a coffee
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shop at the Crocker Galleria, eighteen year old Christian Motifery vanishes without a trace,
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even though coworkers report seeing Christian with a blonde woman, she's never identified,
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and bloodhounds track Christians sent to the edge of the Pacific Ocean at Land's
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End, over six miles away. Weeks later, a man named John o'numa
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phones in a fake tip in which he falsely accuses two women of murdering Kristin.
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But even though Numa does a number of suspicious things and multiple women accuse
1:15
him of abuse, no conclusive evidence ties him to Christian's disappearance. After that,
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the Path Went Chile. So today we're going to be covering an unsolved
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case involving a missing university student, the nineteen ninety seven disappearance of Kristin Modafery.
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At the time of her disappearance, Kristin Modaferi was a student at North
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Carolina State University, but decided to relocate to the San Francisco Bay area for
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the summer in order to take some classes at the University of California, Berkeley.
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She got herself a job at a mall coffee shop, but went missing
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after leaving at the end of her ship one afternoon, though some of Kristen's
1:53
co workers would report seeing her in the company of an unidentified blonde woman.
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The case would take an una expected turn weeks later, when a man named
2:01
John O'numa phoned in an anonymous tip, falsely implicating two women in Kristen's disappearance.
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While he attempted to write off the whole thing as a stupid prank,
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suspicion mounted that Onuma might have been personally involved in what happened to Kristin,
2:16
particularly since there were numerous women who accused Onuma of abuse, and he would
2:22
reportedly use other women in order to lure his victims to him. But no
2:25
conclusive evidence has ever implicated Onuma, and this is one of those frustrating cold
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cases in which there are a lot of different pieces of the puzzle, but
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they just don't quite fit together. Some of the information you'll hear today was
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sourced from the website find Kristin dot com, which is run by a man
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named Dennis Mann, who lived in Kristin's hometown of Charlotte at the time she
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went missing before he volunteered to assist with the search effort, and he remains
2:53
a major advocate for twenty seven years later. Mann also released his own multi
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episode podcasts about this taste titled Fine Kristen, and has made every effort to
3:02
piece together what happened to her, but we still don't have any definitive answers.
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This is what's so horrifying about this case. It's a young eighteen year
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old who's enrolled in college and she's so ambitious over in North Carolina. She
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wants to go to Berkeley for the summer and take some more courses, and
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in order to accomplish that, she gets this job at the mall. So
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she's seen with a woman at her coffee shop before she leaves for the night,
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and then all of a sudden, there's this phone call by a man
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who kind of shifts the investigation. As you're describing it, I thought,
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well, wait a minute, her coworkers described her being with this woman.
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Then you have John who's calling in this tip that ends up causing a big
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stir in the investigation. But then, Robin, you just said he actually
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used other women to help lure abuse victims to him, And my heart just
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sank because even if this blonde woman she was sided with was someone involved,
4:00
John could still be the main perpetrator in the case. Or it's very possible
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the woman could be unrelated to the case, or the woman acted alone.
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So it opens up a whole host of possible answers of was this woman even
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involved and was she actually working for John? Yeah, there are so many
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possibilities here because, as we're going to talk about, John Ouma did have
4:24
a girlfriend at that time who may know more than she's letting on. But
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this woman was not a blonde, but of course that doesn't preclude the possibility
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of her being in disguise or possibly wearing a blonde wig. So opinions aren't
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divided. Some people think that John Onuma is guilty and cause Kristen's disappearance,
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but at the other hand, he may just be like a prick who decided
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to phone in a false tip and completely complicated the investigation so that the focus
4:50
has never left him. So there is just no real evidence pointing to any
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one conclusion. All we know for certain is that Kristen is gone and is
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not and found for twenty seven years. It speaks volumes for her character that
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she has someone back home who says, you know, twenty some odd years
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later, I'm still fighting for justice for her, that she was that important,
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that she was that loved, and that it was so important to that
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community to say, we have to have answers for someone who's one of ours.
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Even though she was in California at the time, what happened to her,
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one of our children went missing. Our story begins in California in nineteen
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ninety seven, and our central figure is eighteen year old Kristin Motiferi. Originally
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born in Danbury, Connecticut, to parents Bob and Debbie Modiferi. Kristin was
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the second of their four daughters, and the family would relocate to Charlotte,
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North Carolina. After receiving a four year scholarship to North Carolina State University and
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completing her freshman year as an industrial design major, Kristin decided to make a
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temporary move to the San Francisco Bay Area in order to take a summer photography
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course at the University of California, Berkeley, which would count towards her credits
6:04
at NC State. She is the Internet to find a rented room at a
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Victorian house located on Jane Avenue in Oakland, which she would share with four
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male roommates, and Kristin officially arrived and moved in on June first, which
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happened to be her eighteenth birthday. In order to support herself, Kristin found
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a job working the morning shift at Spinelli's coffee shop in the Crocker Galleria mall,
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located in San Francisco's Financial District, and she was also planning to work
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part time on weekends in a coffee shop at the San Francisco Museum of Modern
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Art. At around three p m. On the afternoon of June twenty third,
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the day before her photography course was scheduled to start, Kristin completed her
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shift at Spinelle's and asked her co workers for recommendations of places to visit,
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even though she said she'd already been there. Kristin briefly mentioned the possibility of
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traveling to Ocean Beach, located in lands End Park next to the Pacific Ocean
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but after leaving Spinelle's, Kristin never returned to her residence in Oakland that night
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and was not heard from again. She did not attend her first photography class
7:15
at Berkeley the following morning, and never returned to Spinelle's, even though she
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left behind an unclaimed four hundred dollars paycheck. Based on her character, it's
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pretty clear that this was not a voluntary exit because she had just planned too
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much. She had worked too hard to try to get out to California.
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She had these jobs arranged, and she's about to start courses, which seems
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to be her priority right now in life, to get that industrial design degree,
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to make sure she's financing her whole dream out in California. In my
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heart, I want to know, I'm assuming the roommates were all ruled out.
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To have an eighteen year old little girl from North Carolina fly cross country
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and live in a home with four guys that she didn't really know. How
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were they ruled out pretty quickly? Yeah, we're going to talk more about
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the roommates as we go along, but they have never been considered to be
8:07
suspects, And it might seem unusual that like an eighteen year old girl who
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was away from home for the first time, would move in with four other
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guys that she didn't even know, but by the sounds of it, because
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Christian was so active and was would go get up early to go to work
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and spent a lot of time sight seeing in San Francisco, these roommates really
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didn't see her all that often because she would come home late at night and
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then wake up next morning to do it all over again. So they didn't
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really cross pass all that much. But there has never been any red flags
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to indicate that they were involved in Kristen's disappearance. Good it doesn't seem like
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she even got home that night, because from the sounds of it, she
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had plans to, like you said, be sight seeing and to go out
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and about. She seems like one of those kids that once she started school,
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she'd be at the library anyway, hanging out, you know, doing
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her schoolwork and making sure the investment she made to make that trip to California
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actually paid off. So just make sure they were all ruled out in case
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there had been a problem at home. Silly question, what exactly is industrial
9:07
design? Let me look, Yeah, I'm not even sure either, Okay,
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I'm glad I'm not the only one. I was thinking an interior design,
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but me too. And then I'm like, what does she design the
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interiors of industrial buildings? Because an architect would. Let's see it says,
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an industrial designer actually develops concepts for manufactured goods such as cars, home appliances,
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and toys. So they combine art, business, and engineering to make
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everyday products for everyday use. Very cool, Very cool. I got a
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toy designer. How fun would that be? So none of Kristen's roommates became
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concerned enough to reporter missing, as they figured she was probably staying with someone,
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but her father, Bob, left a voicemail at the residence. When
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one of the roommates returned Bob's call and informed him that no one had seen
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or heard from Kristen in three days, Bob and his wife, Debbie,
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hopped on the first available flight to San Francisco, and Christian's roommates finally reported
10:05
her missing to the Oakland Police Department. By the time police launched an investigation,
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one week had passed since Kristen's disappearance, but the Mada Fairies remained in
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the Bay Area performing their own search for their daughter, handing out missing persons
10:18
flyers, and hiring the services of a private investigator. An intriguing lead was
10:24
provided by two of Kristen's co workers, who reported seeing her with a young
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blond woman on the second floor of the Crocker Galleria about forty five minutes after
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her final shift at Spinelli's ended. According to those who worked with her,
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it was uncharacteristic for Kristin to hang around the mall for a long period of
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time following her shifts, as she had spent the previous three weeks leaving as
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quickly as possible in order to explore the city. Even though a public plea
10:50
was sent out for this blond woman to come forward, she never did and
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she could not be identified. I can tell kind of the dynamic just from
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the description you gave of the roommates with the parents. How incredible that these
11:03
are guys that live with her. She's only been there a couple of weeks,
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and when the parents are calling to check on her, one of the
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roommates has the decency responsibility to call mom and dad back and instantly can tell
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how serious this is because they're thinking, eighteen year old girl, we don't
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see her a lot. She's eighteen out at college, like she's probably hanging
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out with people and doing her own thing. But as soon as her parents
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voiced something's wrong and that they're boarding a flight to get out to San Francisco
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to check on her, they go into action as well to help mom and
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dad. So it sounds like they report her missing while mom and dad are
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on their way, and it's the police who drag their feet a couple of
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days. I'm assuming that's because she's eighteen, right, and there's no sign
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quote end quote that something wrong had happened to her. Oh yeah, we're
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going to talk about this. But this was caused a lot of red tape
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because Kristin legally became an adult only weeks before she went missing. That's when
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she turned eighteen, So of course there's still feelings that she's an adult.
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She could take off if she wanted to, so she didn't get the same
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urgency as if she was a kid or a teenager who had gone missing.
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But yeah, some people have been suspicious of the roommates for not reporting her
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missing immediately, but they operated on different schedules, like they would go in
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and out of the house, they would barely see Kristin. So as far
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as they know, there's nothing suspicious about the fact that they hadn't seen her
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because they're not aware that she isn't showing up for her shifts at work or
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her classes at college. And like you said, once they found out from
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once they heard from her father and found out that they hadn't heard from Kristin,
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that's when they realized, okay, something is wrong and they finally took
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action. I think it'd be very different had you said their arrangement was like,
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hey, Wednesday night's game nights with roommates or Thursday night we all cooked
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together and she just didn't bother to show up, but we didn't pay any
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attention to it. Or she always called and checked in on her way back
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to tell us you'll leave the door online, and she didn't call. They
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didn't have that dynamic. This was a living situation that was convenient for all
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of them. And so after hearing what you said, I think they acted
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absolutely appropriately. There's nothing to worry about until mom and dad say, guys,
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this is out of her behavior, and they say, tell us what
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to do, And it sounds like they went straight into action to help the
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parent. It's so it's such a perilous situation when you have a missing person
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and you aren't necessarily close with roommates in the sense that, like you said,
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you're seeing them every day, or you have these routines that you're sticking
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to. You're like ships passing in the night. So we've seen cases where
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people were deceased murdered in their apartment, like in their room, and their
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roommates were just going about their business and they didn't discover them for a great
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amount of time later, or that they were missing, and it took days
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to actually figure that out, for everyone to come together and be like,
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oh, because it's not just Kristin likely in the situation who's passing. These
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four other guys are likely working, going to school, doing all of the
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things, and so it's going to take all of them coming together to go
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like, dude, when did you last see Kristen And then they all figure
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out that this is a problem. So it's fortunate that they actually got together
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and were able to provide her parents with that information because Debbie and Bob I
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feel for them. They probably were really scared having Kristin leave home live with
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all of these guys, and they're worried about the things that could happen to
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her. And then before she can even start this photography course, she goes
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missing. It's just so heartbreaking. Investigators decided to use a police bloodhound who
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picked up Christen sent from a pillowcase at her residence and later wound up tracking
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the scent from Spinelli's to the number thirty eight bus stop on Geary Street,
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located just a few blocks away from the Galleria. Now, this particular bus
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route t west and ended at Sutro Heights Park, located at Land's End,
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over six miles away, and when Kristin had mentioned the possibility of traveling to
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Land's End and revisiting Ocean Beach following her shift, her coworkers told her that
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the quickest way to get there was taking the number thirty eight bus on Geary
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Street. This prompted police to drive the bloodhound a Land's End and it picked
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up Christian scent beneath the Cliff House, a historic restaurant located near Ocean Beach,
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and tracked it to a tunnel which was part of the Sutro Bath ruins.
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After that, the dog lost the scent and since the location was near
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a rocky, windswept cliff next to the shoreline. There was speculation the Christian
15:45
could have fallen into the Pacific Ocean and drowned before her body was swept away.
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However, Christian's family was skeptical of this explanation because the Sutro Baths had
15:56
a lot of tourist activity and no one reported seeing or hearing anything unusual on
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the day she vanished. In addition, Kristin had told her roommates that she
16:06
went to a summer Solstice party at Ocean Beach on the evening of June twenty
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first, two days before she went missing. Kristin also apparently said she went
16:15
to a party with two women, but they were never identified. While the
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authorities were unable to find anyone else who attended this party or could confirm that
16:25
the party even took place, they could not discount the possibility that the bloodhound
16:30
only picked up Kristen sent near Ocean Beach because she went to that location on
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the twenty first but never actually went there on the twenty third. Fun side
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fact, when I went to San Francisco for a criminology conference, I ate
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a the cliff house and visited the Sutra Bass. It was amazing good,
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it was really amazing. So I know exactly where she was that night where
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they found her scent. It is a very busy area. It's a beach
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area. But I think if she was at that tourist location, there would
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have been somebody who would be paying attention or would have noticed something out of
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sorts. It's very very possible that, yes, she had been there,
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but the date is incorrect of when she was there. That's the problem with
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things like a bloodhound or saying like well, you know there's DNA here.
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Yes, But if her scent or if some piece of evidence is found there
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and she had ever been there, then it makes sense that these bloodhounds would
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smell her scent, and she had confirmed that with some of her roommates.
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So oh, it's very confusing. Likely she was on this adventure during the
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day as well, because remember she gets off her shift, she does the
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morning shift at the coffee shop, and so I don't see her going out
17:47
to the beach and drowning during the day, unless people assumed she was out
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there till midnight or one am, when you wouldn't have the same kind of
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tourist level and population out there. But yeah, I tend to believe that
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if she said she was out there on the twenty first, it's very possible
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those bloodhounds were saying she's been here, but it doesn't prove she was there
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the twenty third. So from your recollection of going there, would you say
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that it was crowded a lot of the time and that it would be very
18:15
unlikely for someone to fall off without anyone seeing anything. So okay, So
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the cliff house is up high obviously on the cliff, and the Sutra baths
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are down further. So if she was going to the Sutra bath area,
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I don't feel like there would have been as many places to fall, but
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I mean there there could have been. If she was there during the day,
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it would have been too much traffic. Had she been there towards dusk
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and at the in the evening, yes, of course there's a chance something
18:41
could have happened without a bunch of people being around. But had she been
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there during daylight, I think that there would have been too many people to
18:48
not recognize something odd going on. Kristen's parents, Bob and Debbie, decided
18:55
to search through her personal possessions inside her rented room in Oakland and came across
18:59
a cop be of the weekly alternative newspaper, the San Francisco Bay Guardian.
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This particular issue was for the week of June the eleventh to the seventeenth,
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and it featured a personal ad which had been circled and read quote friends female
19:12
seeking friends to share activities. Who enjoy music, photography, working out,
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walks, coffee, or simply the beach, exploring the Bay area interested call
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me end quote. Unfortunately, the backlog of The Bay Guardian's computer records for
19:27
personal ads had already been deleted by this point, so it could not be
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determined if Kristen had answered this personal ad or placed it herself, or if
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it even had any relevance at all to her disappearance. However, since the
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person who wrote the ad had similar hobbies to Kristin, her parents believed she
19:45
might have written it. That's what I thought. As soon as you read
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the ad, I went, is this her? She? It seems like
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it is. It's a very similar to just to remember, she's there for
19:53
photography. She goes out to the beach and likes to explore, and she
19:59
w at a coffee shop. Now these are not unlikely hobbies when you live
20:03
in San Francisco, but it is something that makes you think would an eighteen
20:08
year old posts this when she lives with four guys, she hasn't started classes,
20:15
and the only people she's really interacting with are her co workers. It
20:18
seems likely that she could have said, I'm going to turn to the San
20:22
Francisco Bay Guardian and see if there's any other young people who want to hang
20:26
out and other girls that want to get together and hang out. And it
20:30
seems like Kristen actually was finding some people to socialize with. These two women
20:37
who invited her to this summer Solstice party if it occurred, the woman who
20:42
she ran into at the mall. So it makes you wonder how did she
20:48
meet them, Who were these people, what were their backgrounds? But no
20:52
one knows. Back in the prehistoric days before the Internet, when you would
20:56
actually have to put a physical ad in a physical newspaper in order to meet
21:00
people, it must sound so wild to anyone who's like gen Z right,
21:06
the idea of somebody actually putting a personal ad in a physical paper to meet
21:11
somebody, rather than like using some kind of app to either find her own
21:15
magic partner or a friend. It's wild. Yeah, you used to actually
21:18
have to talk to people and seek people and reach out. But yeah,
21:22
this is a printed ad that she would have had to put out if it's
21:26
her saying help, I need a friend. And what's scary is if she
21:32
had placed that ad and if her personal information had ever been shared, it
21:37
does open her up to a lot of people who or seeking ulterior motives or
21:41
said, let's trick her by meeting her under the guise of being a friend,
21:45
but then we can take advantage of her dangerous like Craigslist could be dangerous.
21:51
Oh my gosh, yes, I remember Craigslist being the hot thing.
21:56
On July tenth, two and a half weeks after Kristen went missing, the
22:00
case would take a disturbing turn when an anonymous male caller phoned the newsroom assignment
22:06
manager at San Francisco's a b C affiliate k g O t V. The
22:11
caller claimed that two women from the local y MCA had abducted and murdered Christen
22:17
over a lesbian love triangle gone wrong, and hid her remains beneath the bridge
22:22
in the Point Reya's area of Marin County. While investigators looked into this lead,
22:26
but were unable to find eddy remains or evidence at this location, and
22:32
when they tracked down these two women at the y m c A, they
22:36
both denied any knowledge or involvement in Christian's disappearance and were ruled out as suspects.
22:42
However, when the women were asked if they knew any one who held
22:45
a grudge against them and might have been compelled to falsely implicate them in a
22:49
murder, they both named a thirty six year old man named John or Numa,
22:55
who worked about a mile away from the Crocker Galleria. The two women
22:59
had both worked alongside on Numa's girlfriend, Jill Lampo, but did not get
23:03
along with her, and since Sonuma believed they were conspiring to get her fired,
23:07
he responded by threatening and harassing them for it. When investigators questioned Onuma,
23:14
he initially denied being the anonymous caller, but eventually admitted he did phone
23:18
in the tip because he was intentionally trying to cause problems for the two women.
23:23
As revenge, He decided to falsely accuse them of murder after hearing about
23:29
Christian Modiferi's disappearance in the media, but maintained that he had no prior knowledge
23:33
of the case. In spite of the numa's suspicious actions, there was no
23:38
evidence to implicate him, and he eventually left San Francisco. Here's what's so
23:44
ridiculous is that these two women so easily could look at each other and say,
23:49
who would have done something like this? Oh, John would have done
23:53
something like this. He's actually threatened to take us down and destroy our lives
23:57
because of Jill, and so it's really bizarre to think of how twisted this
24:04
individual is that in order to protect his girlfriend, he's going around threatening these
24:10
other women to a point that when they're questioned by police, they say,
24:14
I know who did this, John, And when they go to John,
24:17
eventually he says that yes, he made this call, but it was only
24:19
to destroy these women's lives. He's really doing a lot of things here.
24:26
He's destroying at the time, their character for murder and for their sexual orientation.
24:33
This is San Francisco, so way more accepting, but twenty seven years
24:37
ago, these are two women who are being accused of being lesbians and may
24:41
not be accepted by everybody, especially law enforcement. So it's possible that he
24:48
was trying to tear down their character in multiple ways, right, that they
24:52
would not only abuse this woman, that there's these two lesbians in this love
24:56
triangle, and then they kill her and dispose of her. What a dramatic
25:02
turn because they didn't like your girlfriend and might have been trying to get her
25:07
fired from work. It seems ridiculously escalated. And the other part of me,
25:14
though, thinks, if this guy has nothing to do with Kristen's disappearance,
25:18
and it truly is all about Jill, how messed up that his call
25:25
would focus all these resources and attention towards an investigation down this path. And
25:30
then what if it's nothing. What if John has nothing to do with it?
25:33
What if these two women had nothing to do with it, And there's
25:37
a totally different lead that the police could have missed because they were spending so
25:41
much time on this guy's ridiculous phone call to law enforcement. Oh yeah,
25:48
Like, regardless of whether or not John Onnuma was actually complicit in that Kristen's
25:52
disappearance, it's indisputable that he is a major douchebag for even doing this in
25:56
the first place, and he is a very troubling individual. And we'll talk
26:00
more about this later. But when he gave his story to the news affiliate,
26:04
he didn't just flat out say, oh, these two women I know
26:07
murdered Kristan Mataferi, Like, he gave a detailed layout of how they did
26:11
it and what they did. And it just seems so weird to me that
26:15
he would give such details about a case that he supposedly had no knowledge of,
26:21
just as some sort of weird prank. So that's why, even though
26:25
like this happened something like twenty seven years ago, people are still suspicious of
26:29
John o'neuma to this day and think that he didn't just do this as some
26:33
sort of prank. He knows something about the case and maybe projecting because he
26:37
was the one who murdered Kristen. And do we even know if these women
26:41
were out as gay, because it's just just an extra layer of like bottom
26:47
tier human behavior to put a tip out there with their names, and this
26:52
suggests as a lesbian love triangle. If these women aren't out of the closet
26:56
like that could be a real problem for them, both in their employment and
27:00
in their personal lives given the time period. Well, thank you, the
27:03
police were very protective of the women, like their names and nothing about their
27:07
personal lives was released publicly. All they really said is that they were ruled
27:11
out as suspects. So I really don't know if they were actually gay or
27:15
lesbian. And this could have been just a sort of detail that no Numa
27:18
decided to add to the story. But yes, you're right, if it
27:22
was that way and they were being outed by them, then that just adds
27:26
a whole other element of sleaziness to this whole situation. And what's wild is
27:30
this man thirty six years old. This is not a twenty four year old
27:34
trying to get revenge on someone at thirty six. If your girlfriend is not
27:40
getting along with people at work, it's one of those things. You help
27:44
her personally, You give her some tips of how to professionally deal with it,
27:47
you help her get a different job, You let it go like you
27:52
act professionally, and you say, this is the best we can do here,
27:55
Maybe we need to get you out of the situation, and you leave
27:57
at thirty six. I feel like this whole ruse and call to police it
28:03
really shows some kind of like immaturity at the best, but mental health issues
28:08
of someone who would go this far to get back at somebody because of your
28:12
girlfriend's work situation. There's a slight misogynistic bent too, when you have men
28:18
getting involved in women's business and you see it like the most clearly. I
28:23
don't know if either of you watch like reality TV or housewives when you see
28:29
a situation where you got the men jumping in trying to, like, you
28:33
know, defend their wives, but they look very anti women when they start
28:37
going out a woman rather than letting the women handle it themselves. Is just
28:42
never a good look. Here, he is at forty six, like you
28:45
said, intervening when he should just be supporting her and be a shoulder for
28:49
her to cry on if she's having issues, maybe give her suggestions of how
28:53
she could move forward in a positive way. But like, what is he
28:57
doing involving himself at some thing like a sixteen year old kid would do?
29:02
Oh exactly. And I know that Jill Lampo was in her twenties at that
29:06
point. She was considerably younger than Onuma, So he definitely comes across as
29:11
a major predator. However, in May of nineteen ninety nine, Kristen's case
29:15
was featured on America's Most Wanted and it was announced that authorities wanted to locate
29:21
John Onuma for further questioning. During the preceding two years, a number of
29:25
women had come forward to accuse Ouma of abusing them or stealing their money,
29:30
and three of them agreed to be interviewed on The America's Most Wanted episode.
29:33
One of these women referred to Onuma as a quote unquote human vampire who sucks
29:38
the life out of you, and the victims accused him of such horrific acts
29:42
as holding them against their will as a sex slave, and beating and torturing
29:47
them with such methods as burning their hands with cigarettes. These women said that
29:51
they did not report these incidents at the time because they feared retaliation from Onuma,
29:56
and one of them claimed that she was abused by him shortly after Kristen
30:00
went missing and heard him say quote, you know, I'm going to have
30:03
to kill you. I can't let you go now. You know what happened
30:07
to kristin Modaferi end quote. Only a few days after The America's Most Wanted
30:11
episode aired, it was announced that a viewer tip had helped authorities locate Onnuma
30:17
in his native Hawaii, and he agreed to fly to California to meet up
30:19
with the investigators on Kristen's case and take a light detector test. It's unclear
30:26
if this ever took place, but no. Numa has never been charged in
30:29
connection to any of these allegations of abuse against him. Anuma's victims claimed that
30:34
he originally met them through personal ads and newspapers, and would sometimes use other
30:38
women, including his girlfriend Jill Lampo, to Lua's victims to him. This
30:45
detail is particularly interesting when you consider the personal ad found in Kristin's room and
30:49
the sighting of her with the unidentified blonde woman before she went missing. But
30:55
it must be clarified that Jill Lampo is a brunette, so the only way
30:59
she could be the woman seen with Kristen is if she had dyed her hair
31:03
or wore a blonde wig that day. So do you know, Robin,
31:07
how many of these women that come forward were there were the police taking their
31:12
claims seriously? Did they believe that these women truly were abused and tortured the
31:21
way that they described by John, Because that really does put him in a
31:25
different category. Like I said, at the best, he was showing signs
31:29
of being immature, but at the worst. There really seems to be a
31:33
big flaw in the kind of human he is just from the claims, but
31:37
now to think that there's women backing up that he was physically and sexually abusive
31:42
emotionally abusive. If the police are validating those claims, it does put him
31:48
in a different light towards Christen's disappearance. I think the police did take them
31:52
seriously because these women were interviewed on America's Most Wanted and I don't think the
31:56
police would have let them do that unless they believe their claim re credible.
32:00
But I think at this time they pretty much figured this is nothing more than
32:04
he said, she said, So we don't actually have any evidence to prosecute
32:07
him other than their word, because as far as I can tell, he
32:10
has never faced any criminal charges for any of this. But it does sound
32:15
like law enforcement does believe that these women's accounts are true. I mean,
32:20
that's a lot of smoke, having that many women come forward for there to
32:22
be no fire one thousand percent, And it is scary to think there was
32:27
a public ad where she's asking people to come meet her. It intensifies the
32:31
situation when you think Kristen could have placed a physical ad asking people to contact
32:37
her to hang out. Because if you are a predator or you're someone who
32:40
likes to manipulate and abuse people, that's a perfect opportunity to go through the
32:45
newspaper and say, here's a woman seeking companionship and friendship in a new city.
32:52
She's letting people know that she isn't familiar right, she's exploring, and
32:58
it opens her up to someone who's a predator saying I want to hurt this
33:01
individual. It's a very vulnerable, perfect candidate, someone begging, someone begging
33:06
for social companionship and attention. So oh, it really does put John in
33:12
a different perspective hearing that those women came forward against him. When investigators performed
33:19
a search of the apartment that Lampo and Numa had been sharing and found Lampo's
33:22
day planner, they noticed that some pages from June nineteen ninety seven were missing.
33:29
This would have corresponded with the time period when Christian disappeared, and Lampo
33:34
claimed that a Numa tore the pages out because he believed there was material in
33:37
there that could come back to hurt him. In June of two thousand and
33:42
one, Christian's case would be featured on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, and
33:46
while Onuma agreed to participate, the show only referred to him by his first
33:51
name, and his interview was filmed in silhouette in order to conceal his face,
33:55
and his voice was digitally altered. Ouma any involvement in Christian's disappearance and
34:02
acknowledged that he made a big mistake by phoning in a fake tip before apologizing
34:07
to the Modifery family. He also claimed that he passed a polygraph test given
34:13
by a reputable expert. At some point, Numa wound up being evicted from
34:17
the house where he was living in Hawaii, and shortly thereafter, a briefcase
34:22
containing a number of articles about Christian's case was found inside the attic. Okay,
34:28
so clearly he's obsessed with the case in general, whether or not he's
34:31
the one who actually kidnapped or harmed Kristen. He has a briefcase that has
34:38
a number of articles about her disappearance in it. That's odd. I can't
34:44
remember a single case that someone who's not an investigator or someone associated with the
34:50
case. I can't think of why you'd sit there and collect newspaper articles about
34:53
a given disappeared young lady. He also intertwined himself so deeply. Not only
35:00
is he collecting the newspaper ads or articles, but he's also making this phone
35:05
call saying he knows what happened to her and getting himself in her twined that
35:07
way, and he talks about passing a polygraph test. Is this done by
35:13
law enforcement? And did he? I haven't seen any corroboration about this.
35:16
We only have Ouma's word from his interview where he said I passed a polygraph
35:21
test, and he just said given by a reputable expert. But law enforcement
35:24
never confirmed or denied that. Yeah, I don't see that happening. I
35:29
think law enforcement would have come forward and said, listen, he passed a
35:32
light detector test, we need to kind of widen our scope and look somewhere
35:36
else. But he's saying he just passed it by some reputable expert. And
35:40
who the heck knows who that is? According to him, I mean the
35:44
way he talks and has this fantasy life that he leads it could be his
35:47
girlfriend, who knows. But the briefcase with the number of articles and him
35:52
tearing out those pages because there's something that quote could come back and harm him.
35:57
What else, what did you write in your date planner? And why
36:00
are you collecting those articles if you had nothing to do with the case.
36:05
What would have implicated you in your day planner? Yep, just seems like
36:08
too much of a coincidence that it happens to correspond with the time period when
36:13
Kristen went missing, and there's multiple layers to it. It's all of those
36:16
things added up. It's in him saying, oh, I thought I'd actually
36:20
get caught, I'd be implicated with those two pages of my day planner or
36:22
whatever. Like John, You're he's a mess. And think who compiles a
36:28
whole briefcase of articles about a case when you had nothing to do with it.
36:34
Do you guys think he could have been compiling those articles to get information
36:37
when he made those false claims, or do you think it was too soon
36:40
and he was collecting those articles after the anonymous tip was called in. I
36:45
don't think Kristen's case got that much coverage when he made his tip, Like
36:49
she'd only been missing for a few weeks at this point. So I have
36:52
to think that if he has an entire briefcase, that he had been collecting
36:54
them over the course of the next several years. If he got a polygraph
37:00
test from a reputable expert, wouldn't you list who that reputable expert was so
37:07
that law enforcement or the public could be able to discern, Like you said,
37:12
as it could have been like his girlfriend, It could have been anybody
37:15
who were like, oh, yes, reputable expert over here, she administered
37:20
a polygraph, when really it's like, not actually a polygraph, So why
37:23
don't we know who this person is or what agency they were from, or
37:29
what organization. And you would think if he passed it, you'd think if
37:31
he passed it with that expert, wouldn't the law enforcement give him the same
37:36
polygraph or give him an exam as well and say, yeah he did,
37:38
he passed that private one and he passed hours that didn't happen. One would
37:42
think, I got doctor Nick Riviera to give me this polygraph, don't you
37:45
believe him? So during the early stages of the investigation, Kristen's parents had
37:52
attempted to contact the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, but we're told
37:58
they cannot provide any assistance since uk Kristen was legally an adult when she disappeared
38:02
even though she had only turned eighteen three weeks earlier. So the case eventually
38:07
inspired Sue Meyrick, the US representative for North Carolina's ninth Congressional District, to
38:14
introduce a new bill titled Kristen's Act, which would provide assistance to law enforcement
38:19
and families of missing adults over the age of seventeen. Kristen's Act would allow
38:23
for the annual sequestering of one million dollars in support of missing persons organizations,
38:29
including the National Center for Missing Adults, and it was officially signed into law
38:32
by President Bill Clinton in October of two thousand. Around this same time period,
38:38
one of the Madafery family's neighbors in Charlotte, Jones Scanlon Petruski, decided
38:44
to establish the Christen Foundation, a nonprofit organization which offers financial and informational assistance
38:51
to the families of missing or endangered adults over the age of eighteen, and
38:55
the Foundation has provided assistance to hundreds of missing persons case like I mentioned in
39:00
the intro. A few months after Kristen went missing, another Charlotte resident named
39:06
Dennis Mann offered to assist the Mauda Fairies by traveling to California and performing his
39:10
own independent investigation, but will be discussing some of the things he uncovered later
39:15
on. In June of twenty fifteen, there would be a new development in
39:20
the case when Paul Dosty, a retired police officer turned private investigator hired by
39:25
the Mauda Faery family, decided to perform a new search of the house where
39:30
Kristin had been living in on Jane Avenue in Oakland at the time she disappeared.
39:35
Dosti would be assisted by cadaver dog named Buster, who had once used
39:38
his sense of smell to locate the remains of World War Two soldiers who went
39:43
missing in action. Buster proceeded to pick up a scent that has been described
39:47
as a quote unquote chemical plume and is associated with human decomposition. The dog
39:53
barked when it picked something up on a drainage pipe and proceeded to follow it
39:58
to the basement door at the back of the house. This prompted Paul Dosty
40:02
to recommend that the Oakland PD excavate a concrete slab in the basement, take
40:07
soil samples, and reinterview Kristen's former roommates. The police responded by bringing in
40:14
specialists with ground penetrating radar to perform a search of the basement. But we're
40:19
not able to turn up anything, and since the basement soil was dense,
40:22
hard packed clay, it would have been very difficult for anyone to dig it
40:27
up and bury a body there. Well, that puts a unique element to
40:32
this case, right, you do have the family friend who comes out and
40:36
helps. There's got to be this kind of enraged helplessness that the parents feel
40:43
when for several days the police are saying, you know, she's a grown
40:45
woman, she's eighteen, she could do what she wants. She'll probably show
40:50
up soon. And Kristen's parents are very well aware this is not typical behavior
40:53
by Kristin. She was a very driven young lady and she was really pursuing
40:59
a dream. Something's wrong. No one helps for several days, which is
41:04
a problem because the more time that passes, the less evidence we're going to
41:07
get. The friend comes out and does his own investigation, and then they
41:12
also hire this man who comes out with cadaver dogs. It gives a lot
41:16
of promise to Kristen's family, who's saying, look, there's a hit.
41:21
It's like she might have been hurt in that home. I think that would
41:24
cast a huge darkness over those four roommates. And yet when the police go
41:30
out, they're looking at saying, you know, this is a really difficult
41:35
scenario in location because I don't think a body could have been buried here.
41:39
So if we're going to dig up the ground, the composition of the ground
41:44
just doesn't really work for body disposal. Is it possible she could have been
41:47
hurt there and left somewhere. I think it's possible. But remember the roommates
41:52
are on board and helping day three of her missing. So to what extent
41:58
would she be decomposing at that point when the parents are literally flying in to
42:01
help day three of her missing. Yeah, that's the confusing aspect of this
42:07
case because we know Kristin was last seen at the Galleria in downtown San Francisco,
42:12
and she would have needed to travel quite a distance to make it back
42:15
to her home in Oakland, and there's no evidence that she ever made it
42:19
there that day, because there are no eyewit sightings of her in Oakland after
42:23
she left the galleria. And of course that kind of takes suspicious away from
42:28
John o'numa because he lived in downtown San Francisco. So if he harmed Kristin,
42:32
why is the scent of her decomposition being found at her house in Oakland?
42:37
So that's what causes all this confusion with the case. I don't know
42:42
what to make of these readings and know if the cadaver dogs snipping out kristin
42:45
scent is reliable. I have to believe that Buster is a very good kidaverdog
42:52
because he was obviously used to look for the remains of people from World War
42:58
Two, but they're all So is no standardized protocol with regards to training dogs
43:04
to be cadaver dogs across the US. It differs from state to state,
43:08
and so some can be trained on pseudo sense, some are actually trained on
43:13
decomposition, others can be trained on animal decomposition. It really varies, so
43:20
it's really tough to know. Maybe a family had lived in this home before,
43:23
and maybe they had a deceased pet, and if Buster was just taught
43:27
on decomposition in general and not just specifically human decomposition, maybe he smelled this.
43:34
He or she smelled the smell of what was a decomposing animal that maybe
43:39
was in the basement for a period of time before it was buried elsewhere.
43:44
That's what I was wondering. I was wondering what other elements could lead to
43:47
similar smells, because, like you said, Jeles, depending on how they're
43:52
trained, there's other organisms that break down, or even bodily fluids that break
43:59
down, that start to have sense that are similar to the ones they're designed
44:02
to pick out. I mean, they're picking out things like hydrogen sulfide,
44:07
disulfied, all kinds of things that they're really smelling for, which is part
44:12
of human decomposition. But in my head, I'm trying to rack my brain
44:15
for things that also could have been in that location and not necessarily been a
44:20
dead body, but perhaps an incident of bodily fluids or something else. Like
44:27
you said, an animal, and that dog is hitting on accurate chemical decomposition,
44:31
but maybe not a human being. So it does depend on how this
44:36
baby was trained, and it depends on his handler and how his response to
44:39
the dog is performed. It's a very subjective science. It's a magical science
44:45
because there is an accuracy to it, but it's not perfect. It's human
44:50
lead and animal driven. So and what if somebody who lived in the home
44:55
prior had an accident in the basement, because these things can happen, right
45:00
depending on what type of tools you have down there. Say you cut your
45:04
hand and a bunch of blood blood somewhere, and then later that is going
45:08
to have the smell of decomposition. Perhaps, I'm not quite sure if the
45:14
dog would be able to differentiate from blood and possible tissue that could have come
45:17
from an injury and the smell of an entire body. Like I'm just not
45:22
sure what dogs can and cannot smell, and how sophisticated their training is.
45:28
So there's just a lot of questions here. And like you said, one
45:30
of the problems is then it takes the heat off of John and really does
45:35
put it. If it was at her home, you would think it's got
45:37
to be one of those four roommates. Because there's four guys living in this
45:42
old Victorian home. It would be odd that this strange person made their way
45:45
in there at some point in the night and no one you know, here's
45:50
him or anything like that. To their knowledge. She didn't even make it
45:52
home, much less someone else being in the house at the time. In
45:58
February twenty seventeen, doctor R. Pod Voss, a research scientist and forensic
46:04
anthropologist who specializes in human decomposition, decided to perform his own search of the
46:09
residence. He used a proprietary device which detects human decomposition chemicals, and it
46:15
reportedly picked up signals in an area located between Christian's former house and the residence
46:22
next door. More specifically, it picked up a chemical signature denoting the presence
46:28
of human blood near a concrete slab at the base of some porch steps at
46:32
the other residence. Back in nineteen ninety seven, the residents had actually been
46:37
a halfway house for convicted juvenile offenders who had violated their probation, but neither
46:43
Christened, her family, or anyone in law enforcement was aware of this at
46:46
the time, and it was Dennis Mann who originally learned this information while canvassing
46:52
the neighborhood. When Christian's parents agreed to provide samples of their DNA to doctor
46:57
Voss for testing, the results were cowartedly matched the DNA that was found within
47:01
these human decomposition chemicals. Felicia Aysthorpe, the public information officer for the Oakland
47:08
PD, would later confirm that since doctor Voss was using relatively new technology,
47:15
the results of his findings would have to be delivered directly to the police for
47:19
scientific and independent verification. She stated, quote at this time, the information
47:25
we need from doctor Voss to collect the samples for human decomposition testing has not
47:30
been forwarded to the department. Additionally, no information regarding the more recent blood
47:37
testing conducted on the porch has been disclosed to the department end quote. Both
47:42
doctor Voss and Paul Dosty have denied this and the claim that Oakland PD had
47:49
enough has enough data about the findings to perform their own search of the site,
47:52
and they also believed that Christian's body may have been there at some point
47:57
before it was transported away. Around the twentieth anniversary of Christen's disappearance, KGO
48:04
TV decided to produce a new segment about the case and managed to track down
48:08
Jill Lampou, who had long since broken up with John and Numa. They
48:14
convinced her to do an interview, though she kept her face off camera,
48:17
and Lampeau continued to deny any involvement, claiming that she had an alibi placing
48:22
her at a library on the date that Kristin went missing. John and Numa
48:28
also agreed to provide comment for the segment and continued to deny his own involvement
48:32
as well, though investigators still consider Oduma to be a person of interest.
48:38
Sadly, Bob Mordiferi passed away of leukemia during the spring of twenty twenty two
48:45
without receiving any answers of what would happen to his daughter. So after twenty
48:49
seven years, there are still no conclusive answers about what actually happened to Christian
48:54
Modiferi. So I guess you could say the path went chilly. Here's what's
49:00
so difficult about all these different experts and parties being involved in an investigation from
49:05
a private perspective. Private experts and people that are hired as private investigators and
49:10
these kinds of things, they don't have to operate under the same rules as
49:15
law enforcement or the same standards that our criminal justice system sets for evidence being
49:19
allowed into the court system. And so I would be just like Kristen's parents,
49:23
I'd beg any human being with a breath in their lungs that's willing to
49:28
help me, come help me, and any technology or resource I can pay
49:32
to have in this investigation. I will pay for it because I need to
49:37
have answers in her case. But it definitely complicates the case. I think
49:42
for families, it puts a lot of emotional weight on the investigation for them
49:46
because they're getting this help from outside experts, and those outside experts don't have
49:53
to follow the same protocol and don't always watch what they share with the family.
50:00
So when they're sharing this kind of promising information and saying, I know
50:05
that her body was here, We've smelled, you know, the dogs smelled
50:07
her decomposing here, there's DNA that matches, and then the police are saying
50:15
we can't go off any of this, we don't have enough information to go
50:17
off of this. There becomes this resentment and emotional distress of saying, why
50:22
aren't you doing anything for us? But it's such a different ballgame the private
50:27
individuals working and being hired by the family and working on behalf of the family
50:32
and an investigator who's trying to make sure they have a flawless case if they
50:37
have one, And so it's actually heartbreaking because the family gets this information that
50:44
looks like you have to be able to prove the next steps for us because
50:46
this expert told us X, Y and Z, and the police often have
50:51
their hands tied in those situations. So as much as I would be just
50:54
like her parents and say give me everything that we know and tell me everything,
51:00
you do have individuals that aren't always as experts as they claim to be,
51:06
aren't as well versed as they say they are, use technology that may
51:09
not be reliable, and then other times you get blessed and you have these
51:13
miracle workers who solve the case for the police. So it's kind of a
51:16
crapshoot of like, what are you getting when these experts come in and investigate.
51:22
I know for a fact you're getting a lot of emotional distress because of
51:25
promises made or information that seems so promising and it goes nowhere. Well,
51:31
I didn't know this at the time I recorded my original Trail Cold episode,
51:35
but I've since learned a bit more about Arvid Boss, the one who's finding
51:38
all this new stuff at the home, and apparently he had once put forward
51:43
a proposal to search out human remains with the use of a fly with a
51:46
tracking chips. So I don't know if he's the most scientifically reliable person.
51:52
So I'm more understanding now about why the police were reluctant to accept his findings
51:57
and why they would want to find more evidence before they launched a dig at
52:00
that house. Can you imagine being the mom and dad who are getting that
52:06
information though, Like someone who says, oh, I'm a private investigator,
52:10
Oh I'm a you know, a human remains expert, I'm this and that,
52:15
and then they tell you something so promising, it's got to be just
52:21
absolutely devastating for them. So it's to me it's a very fine line of
52:27
you work these cases as literally, like I said, a hero and someone
52:30
who says, I don't have to walk the same lines as police and I
52:32
can help solve this case. And then I think you do have people just
52:37
like you have in psychic realms and all these other things. There's I think,
52:39
legitimate people with gifts and passions, and then there's people who see it
52:44
as a way to kind of get attention to notoriety or take advantage of people
52:46
financially. And so that actually makes me very angry. When I think about
52:52
the fact that you're talking about flies with microchips, I'm I don't know,
52:55
very very frustrating, and I just read one more thing about bass he claims
53:00
to have invented as applying for patents for a DNA frequency scanner device that can
53:06
find missing persons from the air using a sample of a family member's DNA.
53:10
Oh boy, very sketchy. Yeah, I mean, these poor people are
53:14
probably paying him or hanging their hat on every word he says. I think
53:20
it's cruel and abusive if that, if that really is the case. So
53:24
Kristin Motaferi's disappearance is a particularly frustrating one because there are a number of intriguing
53:30
leads, but there are times when they almost seem to contradict one another.
53:35
For instance, even though we have police bloodhounds tracking kristen scent to the shoreline
53:39
of the Pacific Ocean in San Francisco, we have a cadaver dog who has
53:44
detected the scent of human decomposition at the house she was staying at in Oakland,
53:49
which is several miles in the opposite direction. We have a promising potential
53:52
suspect named John Numa, who lived only a mile away from Kristen's workplace and
53:58
has done a number of suspicious and terrible things, yet no direct evidence has
54:01
ever been found. To prove that he ever met Kristin, let alone cause
54:06
her disappearance. We also have Onuma's former girlfriend, Jill Lampo, who allegedly
54:10
helped lure other women to Onuma for him to abuse. Yet the last reported
54:15
sighting of Kristin places her with an unidentified blonde woman who does not seem to
54:21
match Lampo's description. So how do you fit all the pieces of the puzzle
54:24
together? Who is this blonde woman and how does she fit into things?
54:29
Did Kristin actually travel to the shoreline of the Pacific Ocean If something happened to
54:34
Kristin there, why is there evidence of a possible crime scene at the house
54:37
in Oakland? If John o'numa harm Kristin, why would he take her body
54:42
to that house, especially since he lived in downtown San Francisco. No matter
54:46
which way you look at it, some of these leads have to be false.
54:51
But what actually did happen to Kristin? Could her disappearance have been caused
54:55
by an angle which hasn't even been explored yet. When it comes to Kristen
55:00
Modeferi as a person, it doesn't sound like anyone had a bad thing to
55:04
say about her as She was an incredibly bright young woman who excelled in school,
55:08
which is why she graduated a year earlier than normal and got a four
55:13
year scholarship at North Carolina State University. She also had no history of ever
55:17
causing any trouble for her parents, which would probably explain why they allowed her
55:22
to spend the summer alone in the San Francisco Bay Area even though she was
55:27
barely eighteen. In other words, it seemed like she had done an awful
55:30
lot to earn that trust. I also think it says something about Kristen's personality
55:36
that when she applied for position at Spinelli's coffee shop, the manager found her
55:40
to be so likable and enthusiastic that he immediately offered her a job, even
55:45
though they were not even hiring at that time. Krista was technically only in
55:50
the Bay Area for three weeks before she vanished, but it sounds like her
55:52
daily routine was working the seven am to three pm shift at Spinelle's and spending
55:59
the rest of the day explos or in San Francisco before returning to the house
56:01
in Oakland. The day Kristen went missing was pretty much her last day of
56:06
freedom before her classes at Berkeley started, so it sounds like she wanted one
56:10
last adventure after her shift ended, but something happened. When I think about
56:16
what happened in those last hours, I honestly think in my gut that the
56:21
hit at the beach was from the twenty first, not the twenty third,
56:27
That yes, she had been down there, which she had already confirmed with
56:30
her roommates, and that when she know when they hit down at the beach
56:35
for her scent, it's because she had in fact been there, just not
56:38
the night that she went missing. And so for me, I don't really
56:44
think the hit at the house or the hit at the beach necessarily tie anything
56:50
to her disappearance. I think the house hit is more or less going to
56:53
be smoking mirrors and false promises to the family, and I think that the
56:59
beach hit would be to that earlier party that she went to. So there
57:02
is a very big possibility that, like you said, John lived in downtown,
57:09
that she never went to the beach, and she was never at her
57:13
house the evening that she died. So yes, there's a lot of conflicting
57:16
information, but when you think about the sources, I tend to discount a
57:21
lot of the things that were said to have occurred at the house, and
57:23
with John it's one of those just questions where you say, do you look
57:29
at all the red flags and lump them together and say it's like a forest
57:32
fire of facts, or do you have to just look at him as a
57:37
very disturbed, sick individual that was obsessed with his case. It's very hard
57:40
to distinguish those but I will tell you those women coming forward that he was
57:45
an abusive, sexual, sadist type. That's very scary, especially when you
57:51
couple it with the briefcase full of articles about the case and then ripping the
57:55
stuff out of the day planner saying that it could get him into trouble.
58:00
These things are just like huge, huge red flags. I mean, I
58:04
agree with you, there's just something about all this stuff at the house that
58:07
just doesn't ring as true to me as John O Numa does. And think
58:12
about this, he is always willing to have his name in the spotlight.
58:16
He's always willing to make a statement if you Okay, let's say I was
58:21
an idiot at thirty six, way too old to be making big like life
58:27
disasters like this. But if I made this anonymous tip at thirty six and
58:30
try to destroy these people's lives and sent police on a wild goose chase and
58:36
I wasn't arrested for something. I might slowly fade away from this case,
58:40
but John can't. He's constantly Yes, I'll be on Inzlove Mysteries. Yes,
58:46
I'll interview with the newspaper. Yes, I'll go on this show for
58:51
the anniversary. All these things that he's saying, like, look at me,
58:54
look at me. I got a private person hired for a lie detector
58:59
test. It's it's like he needs the attention and he won't let it go,
59:04
which a smart person would distance themselves. He has to be part of
59:07
it. That's very concerning. So I think this would be a good time
59:13
to bring it into part one. But join us next week as we present
59:15
part two of our series about the disappearance of Kristen Modaferry. Robin, do
59:22
you want to tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
59:24
Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and
59:28
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on Patreon if you join our five dollars tier Tier two. We also offer
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59:47
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59:52
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59:55
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until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass
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call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy