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The Knife: Off Record – 122 · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to The Knife off Record. I'm Hannah Smith, I'm
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: patia Eton. First, just a quick thank you to everyone
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: who has taken the time to rate and review the Knife.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: It's been really helpful. You can also email us at
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com or follow us on
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Instagram at The Knife Podcast. We have two stories for
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: you today, both involving scams. Mine shorter kind of a
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: mini story, so I will jump right into it. Yeah,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: let's hear it. So I first came across this story
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: on Reddit, as we do, and it was a post
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  Speaker 1: from twenty fifteen by this guy named Alec Kor. He
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: lives in Canada. He's a professor and he made this
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: post and this is the title of it. For the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: past eight years, my photos have been used by romance
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: scammers aka catfishers. I really need Reddit's help to have
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: this get the attention of Facebook. So he claims that
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: around two thousand and seven he became aware of someone
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: using his photo when his then partner got a call
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: from a woman that she didn't know and the woman
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  Speaker 1: was basically like your partner has also been dating me
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: and she was really upset about him breaking up with her.
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  Speaker 1: First of all, how would you feel if you got
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: that random call? Not great?
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  Speaker 2: I would be very confused. And also, like, you have
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  Speaker 2: to think, if someone's going that far out of their
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: way to call you, you got to feel like they're
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  Speaker 2: not making it up, or at least it's worth looking
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  Speaker 2: into or figuring out. I wouldn't be dismissive of it,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: like fully trust my husband, but I would never be
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: of it. I would definitely be like, what's up with this? Yeah,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: we got to get to the bottom of what's going
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: on here for sure. So his partner confronted him and
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: they started looking into it. And I don't know the
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: details of that very first case, but it became clear
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: that it wasn't him. First of all, it was a
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: different profile on Facebook and under a different name, but
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: it was using his photos. So he reported to Facebook.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think anything was done, and he thought it
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: was a fluke, like a weird one off, weird someone
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: used my photo. He had a Facebook profile that was
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: public and he had photos of himself, his partner, his life,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: his kids. But then he starts getting contacted by more
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: people all women. They start contacting him thinking that they
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: had been dating him, and some of them are just
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: like heartbroken because they've been ghosted. But a lot of
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: them have lost money, oh and no then been ghosted. Okay,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: so a lot of the time, if he ends up
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: talking to these on the phone, they realize pretty quickly
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: that it's not him because they've spoken on the phone
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: to whoever it is and his voice sounds different. But
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: he starts getting people when they reach out to him
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: to send him the profiles because he doesn't know what
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: they're talking about. So he starts getting all these profiles,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and every time he gets one, they're all Facebook profiles.
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  Speaker 2: He reports it to Facebook as this is not me,
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  Speaker 2: someone is stealing my identity, but nothing is really done
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: about it. He starts finding more and more of these pages,
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  Speaker 2: and it's not just him. Some of these scammers have
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: made Facebook pages for his mother, his brother. They've found
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: pictures of his family and then use those photos to
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: create multiple Facebook accounts to enact their scams. So you
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: can imagine the mother's messaging them being like, oh, yeah,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: my son, it's so believable. Yeah, it makes it so
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: real for that person.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's reporting all of these and he's that
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  Speaker 1: nothing's being done. He even contacts his local police, but
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  Speaker 1: they can't or won't do anything because they say it's
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: outside their jurisdiction because it's online. And this was in
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  Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, so ten years ago, but he's been dealing
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  Speaker 1: with this since two thousand and seven. Oh my gosh.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: And it's interesting looking at that Reddit post from twenty
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  Speaker 1: fifteen the comments on it, people are still kind of
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  Speaker 1: confused and even defending Facebook and sort of like, well,
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  Speaker 1: why did you put your photos publicly on a Facebook
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  Speaker 1: profile if you didn't want this to happen?
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  Speaker 2: Who is out there defending Facebook? Like, who's like, you
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  Speaker 2: know in the morning, Like Facebook needs my support.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just so hard working. We got to support them. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean twenty fifteen was a different time, and I
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: think it shows that the understanding that this is happening
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  Speaker 1: on a wide scale was still so lacking.
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  Speaker 2: Right, and also how it could really impact someone's life.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also everyone was putting photos of everything from
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  Speaker 1: their life on Facebook in twenty fifteen public profiles.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, if this didn't happen to you, you're like lucky.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so this continues to happen for years. This professor,
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  Speaker 1: this guy Alec, he's dealing with this. You know, he's
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: a professor. He actually teaches educational technology and media. And
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  Speaker 1: I just point that out because he is someone who
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  Speaker 1: is Internet literate and you know, had resources and tools
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  Speaker 1: available to try to figure this out. He reported it,
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  Speaker 1: He went through all the right channels, and oftentimes the
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  Speaker 1: profiles were not taken down because they technically met Facebook's
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: you know, user agreement. So he just was sort of like,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to do about this, so he
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  Speaker 1: just kind of had to deal with it.
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  Speaker 2: That's terrible. It's also so surprising because if whoever is
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  Speaker 2: using his photos to like create this persona and date
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  Speaker 2: people is also stealing. Yeah, so like they didn't take
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: it down. That's wild.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it's been an ongoing issue, and since
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Facebook has really made some changes. They've cracked
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: down on scammers. And I think you were telling me
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: that now when you create a Facebook profile, you have
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: to like verify your identity.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was something along those lines. I don't recall
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: exactly what it was, but it was definitely more hoops
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I was jumping through because back when I had my
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: first Facebook when I went off to college way back,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Like I have one now that I use for marketplace
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: or for like telling people to listen to our podcast. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: so I don't have any like real friends or anything
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: but on Facebook. But yeah, I remember having to like
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: do a lot more to make my account. And I
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: also now, even though I have a Facebook, I think
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I have one like kind of grainy photo because I'm
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: scared of stuff like this.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think now it's probably good to be more
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: aware of what you're putting out there on the internet, right. Yeah, So,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I like did another interview in twenty twenty, and he
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  Speaker 1: said that at that time a lot of the scammers
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  Speaker 1: had moved from Facebook because of their new regulations onto
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  Speaker 1: dating apps. And at that point in twenty twenty, he
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  Speaker 1: said he'd been experiencing this for thirteen to fourteen years,
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  Speaker 1: and he said he was getting two to three victims
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: reach out to him a day. Still it's been thousands.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. That's also so scary because you know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: like in the first instance of this that you mentioned,
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  Speaker 2: the person pieces together pretty quickly that it's not the
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: voice of the person that she thinks she's been dating.
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  Speaker 2: So clearly this isn't the guy she's been swindled. But
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  Speaker 2: not everyone is that quick to sort of lift the
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  Speaker 2: veil on something they've been believing in, and that could
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: be really scary once someone thinks that you stole money
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  Speaker 2: from them. Oh yeah, I mean it's caused a lot
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: of problems for him. He said that his morning routine
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: as he wakes up, gets his coffee open his computer,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: reads his email, and just knows that there are going
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: to be emails from people in there. Then he has
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: to be the one to explain to them what the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: situation is. So eventually he actually created a website and
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  Speaker 2: it has like a page that he sends to people.
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  Speaker 2: Now it's like FAQ almost because the emotional burden and
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  Speaker 2: the time to try to explain this to every single
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  Speaker 2: person that's reaching out is just not possible for him.
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  Speaker 2: So I went to this website and it starts with hi, there,
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  Speaker 2: my name is Alex Corros. If I have shared this
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  Speaker 2: page with you, there's a good chance you've been the
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  Speaker 2: target of a romance scam and may have been led
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  Speaker 2: to believe that you are in a relationship with someone
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  Speaker 2: who looks like me.
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  Speaker 1: Oh and me is hyperlinked and when you click on it,
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  Speaker 1: it just takes you to a Google image and there's
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  Speaker 1: like tons of pictures of him. So he's like, if
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  Speaker 1: you've been in a relationship with someone who looks like
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  Speaker 1: this me, then you're.
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  Speaker 2: Not imagine getting a response from him and it being
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: that link and going down that rabbit hole of like
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: realizing you've been conned and also sometimes probably heartbroken. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: like that is total devastation. But how nice of him,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: yeah to put that together, Yeah, because he could just
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: not respond to people. Yeah, And so on this website,
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  Speaker 2: it says he's done his best to try to get
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: these pages down, he's tried to report this happening. He
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: kind of explains everything that he's done, and the thing
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  Speaker 2: that he's doing is trying to raise awareness about it
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: to try to get this to stop. And then there
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: are times that he's posted exchanges that he's had with
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  Speaker 2: people who've contacted him on the page, but crossing out
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  Speaker 2: their identity maybe, I think, in an effort to convince
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  Speaker 2: people or like an additional evidence that this is real.
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  Speaker 2: This is happening, and people are reaching out to me,
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  Speaker 2: and sometimes you know, they're really sad, and people are
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  Speaker 2: a broken hearted. Sometimes they're really angry, and like you said,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes they believe him and sometimes they don't. There have
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: been instances where he's like, hey, this is the situation
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: and people are like, I don't care. I think it's
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: still you and they're harassing him. It's a lot to
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: deal with. That's heavy.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is just one example of an email
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  Speaker 1: that Alex has gotten. Good morning, Alec. I called you
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  Speaker 1: yesterday and hung up without saying anything. I'm sorry about that.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I wanted to hear your voice to see if you
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: had an accent. You did not, if you wonder where
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I called. I have just spent the last six months
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: falling in love with you, well, at least your picture.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I am still dealing with this now unknown person whom
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I thought was you, and I'm not sure what to do.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: I was ready to spend the rest of my life
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: with him as soon as he returned from work in
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: the Buffort Sea. We speak almost daily, including last night.
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  Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe he would have such
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: sinister intentions. He has such a good heart. I'm shocked
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: at something like this could even have happened to me.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I am a smart, college educated female and work in
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: employment law for a major international retailer. I just happened
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: to do a Google image search with a picture last
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: night and saw the pictures this man sent me were
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: also tagged to you. And I must also say I
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: think you are very handsome, not the flattery you know.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: I connected to you on Twitter last night as well.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: From what I saw, You've been dealing with silly females
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: like me for years? What happened? How many people have
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: used your pictures? Why you? Where are they from? Is
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: it a group of people or is it many non
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: connected individuals. Am I dealing with one person? Or is
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: he one of many working together? He knows my address,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: my name, where I work? Is that an issue? Should
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: I be scared? I truly am in love with him.
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  Speaker 1: He's kind, sensitive, funny, values the same things. He has
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: a good heart. He makes me smile and I do
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: not do that a lot. I still find it hard
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  Speaker 1: to believe he is part of this thing. And she
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: kind of goes on to say, like, you know, any
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: advice that you have would help? I hope I don't.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I'm crazy. I'm sure you hear this a lot. Blahlah blah.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like ah, the emotional situation that
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: this person has found themselves in is horrible.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: That's horrible. Yeah, It's like he could just not respond
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: because he really he played no role in this at all,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: but like he's responding to be kind and try to
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: correct the issue because he hasn't been able to get
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: all these accounts dealt with. And then you also don't
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: have answers for that person. And how could you not
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: be impacted by an email like that, especially when they
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: come in so often. It's just that's sad. That's sad.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: She's like, why your photo? It's like, well, you just
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: said you think he's reallysome I know.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: It is curious. Why is what I mean? He is good, lucky,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: and I'm just like, yeah, I see this guy, We'll
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: post a picture. Yeah yeah. I don't know if he
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: is like classically good looking in a way where the
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: scammer thought this is great. I don't know. But it's
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: not just romance scams. He also was contacted by a
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: man in Russia who was sending him legal documents. He
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: claimed that Alec or someone using Alex Photo, took money
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: from him for an investment and then disappeared. So now
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: this guy's like giving back my money, threatening him that
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: he's going to end up in a jail in Russia,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: And it's just like, so the legal implications are difficult
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: with something like this. Oftentimes nothing is done even after
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the discovery that someone has used a photo to scam
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: someone else. It's also like how do you find out
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: who the real person is? And then there's this whole
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: issue of jurisdiction. I think that's really interesting with cases
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: like this, especially when the scammer might not live in
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the US or in Canada, like they might live abroad
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: in a different country. So then who do you contact?
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Whose job is it to track this person down? And
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: back in the day, I mean sounds like this is
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: continued on. But back in the day when this started
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: for him, you weren't facetiming with people, right, Like that
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: thing video call was that they but it wasn't like
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: it is now, not like it is now. I feel
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: like nowadays, if you have really sort of any level
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of like online dating savvy, continuing on a long distance
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: relationship with someone without facetiming would be a big red flag. Yeah,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: that's a good point. I wonder if things have changed
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: for him since you know, everyone is zooming and facetiming.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: I wasn't able to find an update, but be interesting
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to find out.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder if he's also getting hit with those
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: like deep fakes that are getting better and better, because
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: that is another concern I would imagine.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I found an article from July of
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five that Facebook removed ten million Facebook profiles
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: that impersonated other users. Ten million profiles. Wow, just in
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. And part of this is them trying
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: to combat the use of AI. Now okay, but it's
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: an ongoing effort, and you know, to wrap it up,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Alec basically has said that, you know, this has taken
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: a toll on him on his personal life, even though
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: he has nothing to do with it. He sometimes still
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: feels guilty that even his photo was used to harm
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: all these people, and it's emotionally difficult, and he wishes
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: that he could do something to stop it. But he's
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: just trying to raise awareness that this is happening.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Wow. Well, I feel like his website is a noble
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: attempt and probably the most you can ask of someone
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: in that situation.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll put a link to that in the
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: show notes.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a wild story and actually reminds me of
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: a documentary I just watched which is on Hulu and
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: it's called Hey Beautiful, Anatomy of a Romance Scam, and
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: it's a very similar situation. A man's likeness is used
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: by multiple people scamming women who think that they're dating him,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: and it really unravels his world.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds really interesting. I'll give that a watch. Yeah,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: well that is my story for today.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Today, I'm going to to tell you a story about
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: a young woman named Kristin Lewis So I actually met
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: way back before we first worked together, and I found
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Kristin's story on Reddit. I reached out to her through
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that Reddit post and asked her if she would tell
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: her story to me on tape, and cool, I'm excited
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: to tell you about it. It's you know, Kristin had
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: her identity stolen. Kristin is from Arizona. She grew up
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: in a single parent household. She said they didn't have
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of money, but it was a really good childhood.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Her mother, you know, supported them and they're close knit family,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: but money was always tight. It was always something they
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: were thinking about. So she started working right away. And
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: where is she located? Phoenix, Arizona. Okay, she's living in Phoenix.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: She gets a job as soon as she turned sixteen,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: and she has that job until twenty eleven. And she's
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: driving to work and she's on the freeway. Traffic is
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: slowing down. There's some construction up ahead, and so everyone's
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: coming to like not quite a stop, but you're now
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: going very slowly. Yeah, and the person behind her doesn't
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: see that, and I don't know if they're not paying
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: attention or what happened, But they hit Kristen going about
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: sixty five miles an hour and she's stopped or going
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: really slowly. She's going really slowly, she said. She's probably
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: going less than five miles an hour by the time
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: they hit her.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: And so this is like my nightmare. This sometimes will
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: happen because in LA you'll be going and then suddenly
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: it's like stop traffic. And I always worry about that, Like,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I hope people are paying attention because you could turn
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: a corner and then there's stop traffic.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I know, and or if I'm driving through the hills,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like, if someone's pulled over. Yeah, it's really scary
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: and it happened, and so she gets hit and her
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: car she described like the tires were basically flipped inside out,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: totally smashed up. She obviously lives, but she's messed up,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: you know. Her back is in a lot of pain,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: but she's not quite sure what happened, and she goes
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: to the doctor. Her car is totaled. Of course, she
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: can no longer work. By this time, she's in her
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: early twenties, so she's been working at Kohl's this entire time,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: having a very steady job. Yeah, and now she's out
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: of work. She's in immense pain, and they don't have
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of resources. So she goes to the doctor.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Eventually is able to get surgery, and that surgery happens
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in twenty twelve. And so the surgery to repair the
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: disc that was her needed disc, I believe, is successful
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: and she feels a lot better. But she's put on
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: pain medication, as anyone would be in that situation, and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: she eventually develops a reliance on this medication and she's
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: in very real chronic pain. Even despite the success of
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: the surgery, the surgery did not alleviate her of all
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: chronic pain, but it did help a lot.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Right, So she's still dealing with all of this pain
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: in her back.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so she's dealing with chronic pain. She's becoming reliant
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: on this medication. The doctor's not monitoring it very closely.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: And this is the tale as old as time, like,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: totally not unique to Kristin. These medications are highly addictive,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and you know, if someone's living with chronic pain, who's
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: to say they shouldn't have access to them. But it's
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: a very careful line. And so Kristin is now also
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: out of work. Gosh, you know, it's like, what kind
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: of job can you do if you're in incredible chronic
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: back pain.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so sad to hear about that, Like having
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: an incident like that happen and then suddenly so much
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: in her life has changed because of this physical pain
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: that she's dealing with that's now sounds like causing her
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: not be able to work and then sort of creating
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: this addiction situation. It's horrible.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even in Kristin's modest home life, she
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: still had the benefit of one parent who could you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: she could live with them? And this is the ripple
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: effect of bad luck. If you don't have money, yeah,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: and so, you know, her life gets a little tricky
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: and she's looking for ways to make money because she
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: cannot work. And so she decides, Okay, I'm going to
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: go around my house and if I'm not using it,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: I'm going to see if i can sell it, you
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: know online.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe. Yeah.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: She finds some stuff and she lists it, and immediately
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: someone reaches out about one of the items. It's just
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: a household items. She didn't even recall what it was. Okay,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: and she knows this person, so she's like, well, great,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I'll just meet you at this gas station by my house. Awesome.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: So she heads over there and he just hops in
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the car with her because they're kind of acquainted, and
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: she feels totally comfortable with that, and he purchases this
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: item and they chat for a minute. He gets out
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: of the car, she goes home. Okay, when she gets home,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: she gets that feeling that most women have had at
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: least once in their life, when your stomach drops and
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you realize.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know where my purse is. Oh gosh, the worst. Yeah,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: that's such a bad feeling.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: The worst feeling. And she had been actively looking for
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: work for you know, many months, and so she's got
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: all of these identification documents in her purse because she's
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: filling out applications, and I mean it makes you think,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: like these job applications ask for so much information before
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: they even ever meet with you, let alone hire you.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like your social Security number.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I know. I'm like, is it so necessary? So she
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: realizes her purse is missing. She calls the gas station.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: She's like, but I don't think I went in, but
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: what happened here? And I'm assuming she's like searching her car.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: It's not in the car. Yeah, it's not in the car.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: She luckily had her phone in her pocket. Okay, so
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: she had her cell phone, but her purse is gone,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and she was, you know, to add insult to injury.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: This happens in like January, So now we're in twenty fifteen,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: so it's a few years past her accident. We're in
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: early early twenty fifteen. She's been out of work, but
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: she got a few gift cards for Christmas and they
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: were in her purse. So it's just like horrible, terrible, Yeah,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: and so what did she think happened to the purse? Well,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: she then starts assuming this person took it.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: The person who she met up with to sell like
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: whatever she was selling that she knew, she thinks then
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: took her purse.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, so Kristin thinks that this guy took her purse
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: because she remembers her purse being on the passenger's side
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: floor of her car. He was sitting in her passenger
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: seat and when he got out, it was gone. But
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: she also knows that this guy is kind of a
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: sketchy character, and so in my speaking with Kristin, she
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: was super transparent about her struggle with addiction that really
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: started when she was prescribed painkillers by a doctor after
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: this terrible car accident. But she had been trying really
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: hard to overcome this still, you know, it's not easy,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: and it did at times put her in questionable situations
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: with people who, you know, maybe aren't always living life
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: on the straight and narrow. And that is how this
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: person came into her world. So confident that this is
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the person who took her purse, and she knows she's
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: not going to call him and say do you have it?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Can you give it back? She knows it's gone, and
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: so what do you do? You go on with your life.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: She applies to get a new license and continues applying
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: for jobs and she ends up meeting someone. So later
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: that year she meets a guy and they start dating.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: And now in twenty sixteen, they're out shopping in Phoenix
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and they go to this place called Zia Records. Okay,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: it's this sort of by sell trade record shop. Kristen
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: loves it. She's been going, she said, her whole life.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: And yeah, and so she would sell them things and
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: collect points and so she had a bunch of points
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: racked up and she was excited to use them on
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: something once she found something she wanted. So she's there
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: with this new ish boyfriend and she up to the
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: counter and she gives him her license or this is
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: her new license, right. She's like, I have points here
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: that I want to use to purchase this. And he's like,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: you're not even allowed in here. You were banned for shoplifting,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Like you have to go, and she's like, I've never
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: shoplifted from here. I've been coming here my whole life.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I don't shoplift. Yeah, and this new guy that she's
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: dating is right there, and so it's horrible or embarrassing,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: so embarrassing, and so they go out of the store
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: she's you know, embarrassed and sort of like, I don't know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: it's unsettling, like why did he just say that about me?
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Her new boyfriend believes her immediately, which is a relief,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: and he's like, well, why did this happen? And she's like,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: you know, my purse was stolen and I just have
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: a feeling it's related to that because I had my
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: ID in there. And he's like okay. So they're on
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: the same page about it, and so about another year
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: goes by, So now we're in twenty sixteen.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Did she like try to report this or I don't
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: know what she would have done.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: She reported it at one point, but I don't even
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: know that anything was officially like filed. She wasn't really
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: sure what to do. And so about another year goes
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: by and Kristin's at home with her mom, and her
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: mom comes into the room and is like, I just
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: got a really strange call from your uncle who says
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: that there's a warrant out for your arrest. So Kristin
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: is stunned by this and very confused. So she and
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: her mom dig into the Maricopa County Court Wreckers to
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: try and find more information about this warrant and the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: charges for this warrant are related to intent to sell
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: drug paraphernalia. Kristin, despite her struggle with an addiction to painkillers,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: knows that she has never sold drugs and she has
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: never sold drug paraphernalia.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: She never tried to.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: She knows this is not her, but her name is
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: on this warrant. So she's pretty quickly starting to connect
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: that this has to be related to the person who
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: took her purse. She's also calling back to this experience
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: at the record shop where she's accused of shoplifting, but
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: she's never shoplifted. She's actually had points there she could
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: have used that she was really excited about and that,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: you know. She's also pretty convinced that this has something
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: to do with her purse having been stolen, and she's
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: piecing all of that together and she's like, this is
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: not me. And so she is like, well, what do
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I do about this? They can't walk into a police
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: station and say there's a warrant from my arrest and
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: then try to explain the situation.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: So what other information did she get? It was there
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: a picture? There was no picture, It was just text.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: And so she's like, well, I know this isn't me.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I have a feeling this is again related to the
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: ZEA records shoplifting thing. Yeah, like probably the same person
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: who who? Yeah, because the person who was in her
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: car at the gas station.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Was a man, so probably he's not using her ID. Yeah.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And so she's like, well, I didn't know what to do.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: We don't have the money to hire an attorney, and
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I can't walk into a police station and be arrested.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: I need to find work.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Because if she walked into a police station to try
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: to figure this out and say this isn't me, my
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: purse was stolen, like, probably she would just be arrested. Yeah,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: without an attorney to be like I'm going to assert
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: this person's rights and fight this really strongly, they would
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: just arrest her because you know, I'm sure a lot
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: of people say it wasn't me.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and she knew that, and so she just
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: waited and ash, what a horrible position to be in. Yeah,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: just so much anxiety. You know, she said, this happens,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: and then another year goes by, so she's you know,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: for a year, she just I think it was she
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: was almost a year. I think it was like ten months,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: but she said, I was just looking over my shoulder.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I knew it was a waiting game, but I needed
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: to try to work. I needed to make money. I
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: didn't have money for a lawyer. Like what was I
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: supposed to do? And so in twenty seventeen, Kristen is
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: at the grocery store and she walks out to her
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: car with a small bag of groceries and she sees
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: that there's a cop in the parking lot and she
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: said that she just knew this was the moment she
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: would be arrested. And she's been replaying this scenario in
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: her head for upwards of a year, like what am
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I going to say when this happens. I'm going to
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: go to jail. I've never been to jail. That's so scary.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: And the cop comes up to he says, are you
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Kristin Lewis And she says, yes, I know you have
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: a warrant for my arrest. It's not me. I can
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: tell you what happened. And the cop listens and believes her,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and so he's like, well, I do I do have
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: to now take you to jail because this is you
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: and I do have this warrant, But I think you're
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: telling the truth. And so what I can do for
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: you is I can take you home in my life car,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: in his cop car so that you can give your
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: mom your car keys so that it won't be impounded,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: and you can put your groceries away.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: So how did this cup find her?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: So? Yeah, she said that he was running plates. He said,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I was running plates in the parking lot, which you're
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: not supposed to do. You're just sitting there running people's plates.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, Because it's not like she was some high
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: level threat where they were out to find her. It
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: was kind of like she's living her life for a
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: year hoping that she doesn't get pulled over for something random,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: or her license isn't run to where someone would realize
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: that she has a warrant. Yeah. Right, and then she's
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: just going to the grocery store in seventh and they
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: run her plates.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Okay wow Yeah, And she was terrified, and so he
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: takes her to jail and it's really just a holding cell.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: It's like a smaller office, and puts her in a
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: holding cell, as if her luck cannot get any worse.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: She's sitting in this holding cell and she looks through
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: like the great like the drain and the floor, and
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: she sees a bag of pills. Oh god, and she's like, Okay,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: someone discarded this. Now what do I do? Do I
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: tell them, hey, there's a bag of pills in here.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: It's not mine. No, I wouldn't say anything. Well she did,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: really yeah. She was like, I mean and look, I
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: guess you got to just make a judgment call in
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: that moment.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: But it's terrible. And so she because she was worried
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: they would think it was hers or something.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: She was worried if they came in and found it,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: they would say did you do this? And so I
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: think at that point they were just like whatever, and
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: they just kind of heard her and took her word
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: for it, because at that point she's already arrested, so
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: it's not over. Then she's taken to what she called
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: like the real jail. This is downtown Phoenix. She's put
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: on a bus with these other people. They're all handcuffed.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: She's taken to the downtown jail, put in another cell
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: with a bunch of people. And so I think about
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: eighteen hours past, and mind you that during that time,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: she doesn't have her phone or any thing she's just
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: sitting there.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: But like, to find yourself in that situation like she did,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: where you literally didn't do anything wrong and then you're now,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: you know, having to go through the system and for
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: the state to think that you have a felony drug
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: charge when you don't.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Right, and they're not going to listen to you. So
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: now you have a public defender. So she goes and
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: gets in front of the judge. He lifts off these charges.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: There are multiple felony charges, all related to possession of drugs.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: And she's like, I'm not even going to bother telling
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: this judge right now. This isn't me. I don't want
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: to anger him. I'm just gonna like stand there and
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: say okay, thank you, okay, thank you, you know whatever.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: And so he just lets her go. So she's let
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: out of jail. There's no bail or anything. He's like,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: this is your court date. You're going to get a
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: public defender and then you're going to have a court
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: date for these charges. So she just walks out of
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: jail and downtown Phoenix. So Kristen calls her mom, gets
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: picked up, and now this whole other process starts of
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: she's got to fight these charges, yeah, because they don't
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: belong to her, and she's got to do it with
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: the public defender.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And even though she has struggled with like trying to
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: get off these painkillers, like she's like living a life,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: she's trying to work. She has sounds like a boyfriend,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: like she's holding down this relationship she has, is on
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: good terms with her mom, and she knows she's never
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: been arrested for any of this, but now she has
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: to try to prove that I guess.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it feels like her luck is starting
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: to turn. And she gets this female public defender who
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: sits down with her, listens to her story, believes her,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and is like, okay, great, we're going to fight this.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: She's like, thank god, like someone cares. I've now, you know,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: been picked up by a cop who was running plates,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: taken to jail, sat there without my phone, anyone to
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: contact my family for eighteen hours in this small cell.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And now here's this person who's gonna help me and
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: if really lucky. And then within a couple of weeks,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: this woman says, you know, they are going to reassign
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: me to a different case and get you someone new
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: because there's a conflict of.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Interest here, Oh gosh.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: And so Kristen's like, Okay, she's bummed, but she's hopeful
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: because this public defender listened to her, heard her story,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: wanted to help get rid of these charges. So her
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: next public defender, who she refers to as Tyler. That
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: was his first name, you know, not his full name.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: He is the complete opposite. She meets him for the
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: first time when they go in front of a judge
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: and he does not so much as introduce himself. It's
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: just like a hearing where it's like, here are the charges,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: you know, how do you plead not guilty? And then
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Tyler says to her, you need to just plead guilty
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: and they'll give you a year. And she's like, take
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: a year in jail for this, like these are not
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: my charges. And so she's like chasing him down the
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: courtroom hallway, is trying to get him to listen to
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: her story. He just has no interest in listening to her,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: not at all. Will barely respond to an email. It's
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: a nightmare and so so horrible, so horrible. So she's
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: now like, Okay, this guy is awful. I'm gonna have
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: to do my own investigation to prove my innocence. So
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: she gets the police report and finds out that this
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: person who identifies themselves as Kristen, they were arrested in
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: a casino parking lot. They were in their car, they
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: were not doing well. A security guard comes up to them,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: sees the arrest happening, and this person says they're having
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: a medical emergency. It's a woman, a young woman. And
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: so when this person is arrested and tells the cop,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I'm having a medical emergency, she's then taken to a hospital.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: So Kristen sees this in the police report and she's like, well,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: these medical records are all going to be under my name.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: This person has identified themselves as me, and.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Wow, good thinking.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so she goes to the hospital.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: You can't just I mean, people know this, but you
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: can't just like call and get someone else's medical records
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: because of hippa, right, you cannot be good Yeah, but.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I mean if I were Kristin, I would have done
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: the same thing.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: But it's this other person. So she's saying, this other
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: person was arrested and sent to a hospital, but had
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: maybe given her idea or something, so that all of
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: that would have been listed under Kristen's name, right.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: So along with the police report, Kristen is then given
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: bodycam footage of this woman at the hospital being questioned
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: by police, and so she's looking at this woman and
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: she's like, I recognize her. Her name is Courtney. Courtney
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: is a friend of the man who got into Kristen's.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Car that day. Wow.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And Courtney has a record for drug charges. This
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: is something that she has done before. And so it's
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: a thirty seven minute bodycam video on the bodycam facing Courtney,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: who we now know to be Courtney, and Kristen's like,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: this is irref you evidence. I am not her, she
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: is not me. She just gave them my identification. I
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: can connect the dots of like how she even came
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: to be in possession of it.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: This feels a huge discovery. Huge.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Also, she's looking through all these medical records. You know,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: she's had this massive spine surgery, right she has, So
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: there's differences in all of their medical records. This person,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Courtney list's allergies that Kristin doesn't have, Like she doesn't
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: have the same spyin X ray that Kristin would have.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: It's just everything is different, and so Kristin takes all
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: of these medical records and other evidence of witnesses to
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: her attorney. He says, I'm not going to look at it,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: and neither is the judge. You just need to plead.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: And by the way, he says, more charges are imminent.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: So this person has continued using her ID, getting more
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: charges and he doesn't care. He doesn't even open the folder,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: he doesn't take one second to even try to see
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: if she's telling the truth. And so she's like, I'm
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: not going to jail for a year. These are not
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: my charges.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of lucky that she, I mean, it makes sense,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: but that she sees the camera footage and she knows
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: this person or recognizes that she's met this person before
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: versus a random stranger. But that confirms that that original
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: person who she met in her car took her purse
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: and probably somehow gave Courtney her ID. I guess, yeah.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: And so seven months and nine court dates go by.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: So this is like all consuming for her. You know,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: she's looking at a year in jail with a public
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: defender who could care less. Yeah, and so she's completely lost.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: The final time she sees this man in the hallway.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: She is so frustrated. She's there with her mom. They
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: don't have the money to hire an attorney. But she
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: just gets so fired up. She's like, you're fired. I'm
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: going to find an attorney. And she said he laughed
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: in her face and he was good luck. And that
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: is just like so callous. He truly did not care.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: She's like, in that moment, it went from this adrenaline
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: rush of like I've had enough, I'm gonna do something
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: about it, to realizing, like, my family doesn't have the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: money to hire an attorney, and now this man who
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: didn't like me before likes me even less. Like it's
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: just dismal. And so her brother sets up a gofund
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: me and in his GoFundMe he details the entire situation.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: He says, my sister's life has been turned upside down
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: by an impostor who has stolen her identity, using her
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: ID and personal information. They stole her purse. This has
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: caused her problems, mixed up medical records, ambulance bills, finding
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: her name blacklisted at certain shops that this person has
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: stolen from. That's another thing. All of these medical bills
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: from the hospital were getting directed to Kristen, Oh, the
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: ambulance bills, and so she's already not making money, didn't
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: have a lot to begin with.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's like a snowball effect worse for her.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: M Oh, that's horrible. It's horrible.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: And so her friends they're able to raise a little
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: bit of money, but it's not enough. She does, however,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: have a friend who's a professional skateboarder, and he sees
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: that this is happening to her and he gives her
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: the remainder of the money that she needs to hire
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: a real attorney, and y'all shout him out. His name
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: is Aaron Hamoki. His nickname is Jaws. Jaws, Jaws, Yeah,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I have it. They grew up in the same circle.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: And so he comes through and helps Kristin and she
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: gets this real attorney. Thanks Jazz, Thanks Jaws. So Kristin
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: is able to hire an attorney named Carrie Lackey, who
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: actually corresponded with to verify, you know, we fact check
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: everything totally Kristin's story, and he said it's absolutely true.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: He said that she came to him, she was able
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: to pay his fee, and he took one look at
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: her case and all of the evidence she herself had collected,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: and he was able to get it dismissed in two weeks.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Kristin never even had to go back into court with him.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Wow. And one of the most disturbing details of all
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: of this is that the security guard that was present
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: at the casino that witnessed this arrest of this person
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: who was impersonating Kristin, who we later found out is Courtney,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: who we later find out is Courtney. He did appear
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: at one of Kristen's court hearings and he pointed to
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: her and said, yes, that's her, that's the woman from
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: the parking lot. And this really like solidified to any
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: skeptics of the fact that she was telling the truth, like, yeah,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: it's her.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Don't believe her story. She's guilty, and she was there,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: that's her. So this was really working against her. And
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: then that security guard, I don't know why, if he
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: just like had a guilty conscience or if he realized
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: he was wrong, but he later called the court, called
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: the prosecutor's office or her defense attorney. He didn't contact
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: with someone. It's on her record and said, I got
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: it wrong, that was not her. I got it wrong.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: And so he, I don't know what the right word is,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: recanted that statement that he had seen Kristin and she
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: was never told that her defense attorney had that information,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the public defender, and he never told her that terrible, terrible,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: He straight up didn't care. And so Kristen's charges were dismissed.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: But Courtney Johnson, who took her ID and used it,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: has never been charged with any crimes related to stealing
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Kristen's identity and just you know, continued to use her
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: ID at certain points. Yeah, but Kristin now she hasn't
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: had any further charges on her record, but they were
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: never able to like go and take the ID from Courtney.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: It's still out in the world. And so this is
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: just something that she now has to really just watch
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: all the time. Is just now ending for her. Wow,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: what about like the hospital bills? Was she able to
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: get those sort of you know, I don't know how
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: that ended. I know she didn't pay them because she
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: didn't have any money to pay them, but I think
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: she did tell the hospital this is what's going on,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: So maybe someone there listen to her. But I do
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: also want to say, Kristen is today doing great good? Yeah,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: she's still with the boyfriend right see your records. I
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: believed her right away, which I love, and she used
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: in chronic pain, but she's no longer suffering from addiction
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: and oh good, she's just a very warm, resilient person.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, it's so good to hear. I mean, wow,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: she went through a lot.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: She went through so much.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I mean even before the identity theft, she went through
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: a lot. Identity theft is so tricky, Like, I'm so
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: glad that she got a good attorney who was able
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: to get these charges dismissed. But it still begs the
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: question what are you supposed to do? How do you
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: avoid this? And the fact that Courtney was still using
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: her idea after all this happened. It's like, what are
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: you supposed to do if you find yourself in this situation? Obviously,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: get a good attorney if you can afford that, or
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: if you have someone like Jaws in your life. But
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: so grateful that Kristen was able to do that, But like,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: what are the steps that you're supposed to take? Do
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you know? Yeah?
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Well, so I've since looked into it, and basically, if
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: your person stolen, if your identification is stolen. You can
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: report your license as lost, or you can report it
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: as stolen. You should report it as stolen, yeah, because
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: that flags it. So that would give you something to
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: point back to if say, someone did use it nefariously gotcha.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: So I ideally was that like, let's say someone steals
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: your person and your licenses in it, and then they
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: try to use that if they're pulled over or they're
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: getting arrested, if you've reported it as stolen, will that
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: like pop up in a system?
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: I think it will because I think it changes the
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: number on your license.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: It's like interesting, it'll give you a new number. I
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: think that's how it works. But it will at least.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Be cataloged somewhere where your attorney, your public defender hopefully
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: if they care, Yeah, can look and say, oh, yeah,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: you did have your license doolen a year ago and
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: this did happen.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Right, So if it's on record that this is the
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: date it was stolen, that you flagged it as stolen,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: and then two months later someone uses it when they're arrested,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: you can prove that more easily in court. Yeah.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you know you can also put like if
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: your credit cards are in there, you can freeze your
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: credit so that the banks, if someone's trying to apply
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: for a loan in your name, you can go to
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: some place like TransUnion and freeze your credit or experience
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: frase your credit, no free ads, and that way, if
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: someone tries to take out a loan in your name,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: the bank has to go through extra measures. Just make
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: sure it's you. Yeah, and I've since done that. And
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: you know, I actually a couple months ago had my
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: purse in the bottom of my stroller and it fell
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: out at a park and I got lucky. Someone turned
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: it in actually to the police station. It's so nice,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: so nice. This happened on a Friday, and I thought
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: there's no way someone turned it in. Maybe I'm just pessimistic,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: but I reported my license stolen right away, froze all
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: my cards. Actually what happened is I was able to
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: go get my purse. I can't remember if it was
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: like the following Monday. I think it was a Monday,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: because we had work and I had to go to
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: the police station and get my purse. And then the
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: cash that was in my purse hadn't been like processed yet,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: and so they were like, but you can't get your
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: cash today. And I was just thinking, like, okay, what
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: and I think it was like fifty bucks or something.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: But you know, I'm self employed, like I have flexibility.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: It's not like it's easy to just take all this
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: time to go somewhere and do something the middle of
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: a work day. But I do have the option. And
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: you know, what if you didn't. What if you're Kristen
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: and you're busy and you're looking for work and you
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: need that cash, Like it's I don't know, I wish
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: they had a different process for that. Was felt really
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: like someone turned my person in. But I thought about
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: how you know, my keys were in there and I
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: had to wait the whole weekend. Like I happened to
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: be married and my spouse can let me into the house,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: but like what if. Yeah, so not a perfect process
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: for that either, But I was lucky someone turned it in.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Listening to you tell that story, it made me
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: think about that documentary. I just looked up the name
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: of it, Fanatical The cat Fishing of Tegan and Sarah.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, yeah.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: It came out like, I don't know a few months
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: ago or something. I thought it was so good. It
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: was it was so good, and I guess it's it's
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: different because it's about cat fishing, but it also involves
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: stolen identity. Tegan and Sarah are pop duo. They're twins,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: and they got really huge in like the late nineties
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: early two thousands and had this like huge online following,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: and then Teagan her identity was stolen, and the documentary
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: go into all the specifics of it. There's like a
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: whole cat fishing element that's like very creepy, but they
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: talk about the logistical nightmare of having your identity stolen,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and then it was like causing all these issues with
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: everyday things that you have to do, coupled with them
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: trying to do things like play shows and go on
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: a tour, rent a car or something like that, and
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: how it really can like immobilize you and not only
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: cause like fear, like there was a whole fear element
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: for them here, but just like incredible inconvenience and difficulty,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: and they weren't even like at the level like what
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Kristen was, where she's suddenly like thrust in the criminal
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: justice system when she didn't commit a crime and the
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: horror of that. But it just really reminded me of
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: it. It was a good doc So I can recommend that
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: one because you know, you hear about these stories of
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: identity theft and then someone is just like, well, what
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: am I supposed to do?
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah? That story also, you know, because this person was
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: interacting with their fans. Yeah, it's just such a sacred release.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Cat Fisher identity thief was interacting with Tegan and Sarah's
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: fans pretending to be Teagan.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Right, and so you know, someone's whole perception of you
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: is being formed by someone who's just an impostor.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: And then you know, there's this crazy moment in the
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: documentary where Teagan comes into contact with a person who
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: believes that they've been in all of this correspondence online
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: and she never was, and so it's just this totally
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: jarring experience for both of them.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I had kind of forgotten about the details
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: of that. So there's all these other victims in this
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: story who are also victims of this person who's pretending
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: to be Teagan right but believe that they have this
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: deep connection with her, when in reality, it's this like
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Cat Fisher person. Yea, yeah, I mean it's heartbreaking, Yeah, totally, yeah,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, go ahead and just recommend everything. Directed by
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Aaron Lee Carr. That's right, Okay, I have I do
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: have a wreck.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not all the way through it, but I feel
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: very good recommending it. It's called catch Me if you can.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: It's from the Binge. I'll read you the long light.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: I don't want to give too much away. Okay, catch
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: me if you can. Investigates the never before told story
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: of a scam that happened from Los Angeles to Italy,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: telling people he was a billionaire son, a crypto mogul,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: and a tech genius can allegedly lord victims by promising
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: to make them rich, leaving a trail of beautiful woman
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: and broken promises in his wake. Mm.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah sounds good. So are you saying catch me if
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: you ken hen k n Yes, got very clever. Yeah, interesting,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: great title, love that title. This is a series podcast series, okay,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: podcast series from the Binge cases cool. Yeah, it's awesome.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Can't wait to listen to that one.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm episode three right now.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Great? I love it. Whenever you can't even get all
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the way through through listening to something before you recommend
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: it because it's that good. Well, I'm so glad that
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: you talked to Kristen and were able to tell me
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: and our listeners that story, because it's really powerful and
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled to hear that she's doing well.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's awesome. I mean, I just love that I
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: reached out her on read it and she was like, yeah, sure,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: I'll get on a zoom with you. Person who has
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: zero podcasting experience, and we have just stayed in touch.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: I think she's awesome.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very cool.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. I
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: if you have a story for us, we would love
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at Exactlyrightmedia
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: And me payshia E. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Alexis Samarosi.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Artwork fi Vanessa Lilac.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer