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The uprising in women's basketball · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: There's been something of an uprising in women's basketball in
• 0:08
  S1: the United States, and two Australians are among the biggest
• 0:12
  S1: winners out of it. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're
• 0:15
  S1: listening to The Morning Edition from The Age and The
• 0:18
  S1: Sydney Morning Herald today. Sports reporter Frances Howe on the
• 0:23
  S1: multimillion dollar deals netted by these Australian stars as a
• 0:27
  S1: result of a very simple demand and what it means
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  S1: for women in sport and more broadly. It's April the 21st. Frances,
• 0:37
  S1: welcome to the podcast.
• 0:39
  S2: Thank you so much for having me.
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  S1: Okay, so before we get into this massive contract signed
• 0:44
  S1: by Australian sports star Alana Smith, first just tell us
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  S1: about who she is and where she stands in the
• 0:50
  S1: basketball world.
• 0:51
  S2: Of course, Alana Smith is 29. She's a basketball player
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  S2: from Tasmania and she also plays with the Opals who
• 0:57
  S2: are our Australian national women's basketball team. And with them,
• 1:01
  S2: she won an Olympic bronze medal at the 2024 Paris
• 1:04
  S2: Olympic Games. She started her career at Stanford University in
• 1:07
  S2: the US, and then was drafted into the Women's National
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  S2: Basketball League, which is the female counterpart to the NBA
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  S2: in 2019. And yeah, that's Alana Smith. She's a legend
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  S2: and more people should know her name.
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  S1: Okay. Well, they're going to now because she has just
• 1:23
  S1: very recently signed a massive new contract with the Dallas Wings. Now,
• 1:28
  S1: this is worth more than 5 million AUD across three years. Right.
• 1:32
  S1: So tell us, I guess, how unprecedented this is.
• 1:35
  S2: I think the best way to demonstrate how much money
• 1:39
  S2: this is for women in sport is to compare to
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  S2: Sam Kerr, who is arguably the most famous Australian female
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  S2: sports person who's on less than £500,000 at her Women's
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  S2: Super League club, Chelsea, which is a huge club. So
• 1:54
  S2: to be earning more than $5 million across three years
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  S2: is just money we've never seen before in any women's league,
• 2:01
  S2: in any country, in any sport. It's huge.
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  S1: Okay, so Frances, when you first reported on this, when
• 2:07
  S1: she signed this contract, this was the richest contract by
• 2:10
  S1: an Australian woman in a team sport. But that was
• 2:13
  S1: then because since then there's been huge news in this space.
• 2:17
  S1: So tell us.
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  S2: Yeah. So her Opals team mate Ezi Magbegor, was offered
• 2:23
  S2: a deal with the Seattle Storm and has since signed
• 2:26
  S2: a contract with them that now makes her the highest
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  S2: paid Australian and the equal third highest paid player in
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  S2: the entire league. Alana Smith will be equal fourth, and
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  S2: it's worth more than 5.2 million AUD, also across three years.
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  S2: It's even bigger than Alana Smith's contract, so we have
• 2:44
  S2: about 16 Australian women offered contracts in the WNBA this season.
• 2:48
  S2: Sami Whitcomb, also in the Opals, is going to be
• 2:51
  S2: on more than 1 million AUD with the Phoenix Mercury,
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  S2: who was the team she was playing for last season.
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  S2: And then Jade Melbourne is swapping to the Seattle Storm,
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  S2: and she will be on more than half 1 million AUD.
• 3:02
  S2: And she's also an Opals player. So a lot of
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  S2: money coming through now.
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  S1: Okay. So we've got to get back a little bit
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  S1: because before all this happened, the players signed a historic
• 3:11
  S1: new collective bargaining agreement. And to say that this was
• 3:14
  S1: hugely contentious, I think is an understatement, because you've written
• 3:18
  S1: about how hard it was for them to nab this agreement.
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  S1: So tell us why they were able to get this agreement,
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  S1: given just how much resistance there was to it. And
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  S1: then just about the agreement in itself.
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  S2: So I think to understand why the CBA happened, now,
• 3:32
  S2: we have to appreciate that the WNBA is not new.
• 3:35
  S2: It's actually in its 30th year and was started in
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  S2: 1996 by the NBA, who own the WNBA. So the
• 3:42
  S2: men Males League and for ages, the women didn't ask
• 3:45
  S2: for anything. We never had even close to $1 million contract.
• 3:48
  S2: Last year, the highest paid salary was believed to be
• 3:51
  S2: about 300,000 thousand US dollars a year. So not a
• 3:55
  S2: ton of money when you compare to what men in
• 3:57
  S2: the NBA earn, which is millions and millions and millions
• 4:01
  S2: and millions, we can get into the exact numbers.
• 4:03
  S1: Yeah.
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  S2: So the women were happy to play in the WNBA.
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  S2: They would subsidize their salaries in other leagues in the
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  S2: off season, like in Europe. Russia was a big one,
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  S2: Asia and also Australia. But when players like Caitlin Clark
• 4:16
  S2: joined the league in 2024, the WNBA just boomed. Her
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  S2: addition to the league saw merchandise sales increased by 500%.
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  S2: Attendance overall across the league was up 50%. The popularity
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  S2: of this league surged and the players took notice. The
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  S2: revenue also surged and they didn't see an increase in
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  S2: their share of the revenue. They never asked for the
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  S2: same as the men, but they asked for a greater
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  S2: increase in the money that they were making the WNBA.
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  S1: And they were rejected.
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  S2: Well, it took a long time to come to an agreement.
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  S2: So it was over a year. There was a threat
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  S2: of strike action. We were thinking that this new season
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  S2: wouldn't even happen. None of the players were contracted to
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  S2: their teams. We had some pretty high profile media leaks
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  S2: from these meetings. Napheesa Collier, who plays for the Minnesota Lynx,
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  S2: used the last game she played last year to read
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  S2: a statement coming out against the commissioner, Cathy Engelbert, saying
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  S2: basically that they were told they should be grateful for
• 5:14
  S2: the money they were getting.
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  S1: Wait, so who told them that.
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  S2: The commissioner of the WNBA, even though they were earning
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  S2: her all this money?
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  S1: Wow. And when we tell us about the t shirts
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  S1: they wore so that some of the stars wore. While
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  S1: these sort of threats of striking actions happening while they're
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  S1: sort of asking for money, tell us what the t
• 5:32
  S1: shirt said.
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  S2: So the t shirt said, pay us what you owe us,
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  S2: which I love. The WNBA has this culture and history
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  S2: of activism during the Black Lives Matter movement. They did
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  S2: similar collective action across teams, across the league, and this
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  S2: It was an initiative that started at the All star game,
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  S2: so a lot of eyes were on it, and they
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  S2: even got players like Caitlin Clark, who's super high profile
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  S2: to wear the t shirt. So.
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  S1: Wow. And so did the commissioner get any blowback once
• 6:00
  S1: it was leaked that she had said, you should be grateful?
• 6:04
  S2: Oh, yeah.
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  S1: Tell us about the blowback. Yeah. As a lady, I'm
• 6:09
  S1: not happy to hear that.
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  S2: Yeah. So at times some of these media leaks really
• 6:14
  S2: seem to threaten the CBA actually being able to come
• 6:19
  S2: to an agreement. People thought that it was all going
• 6:22
  S2: to fall apart as recently as the WNBA draft last week.
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  S2: She was asked how long she believed she would be
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  S2: in the role, but they did come to an agreement.
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  S2: So Kathy's got to get some credit because the agreement
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  S2: they did come to is historic.
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  S1: Okay, well, this is what I wanted to ask you
• 6:38
  S1: because the Australian Basketball League that we spoke about at
• 6:41
  S1: the top. Alana Smith, she said earlier in April that
• 6:44
  S1: she hoped that this incredible contract. more than $5 million
• 6:48
  S1: Australian across three years. That this would lead the way
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  S1: for other women to get what they deserve as well.
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  S1: And of course, since you reported that, as we've just spoken,
• 6:55
  S1: there's been some even larger contracts that have been signed.
• 6:58
  S1: But how life changing are these new salaries, I guess,
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  S1: for these players?
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  S2: Yeah. It's awesome. I got to speak to Lauren Jackson,
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  S2: who is one of the highest profile Australian women basketball
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  S2: players ever, if not the highest profile. When she was
• 7:11
  S2: playing in the WNBA, her 11 seasons with the Seattle Storm,
• 7:15
  S2: there was considered to be the greatest player in the world,
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  S2: was several times voted the most valued player of the league,
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  S2: won several championships. She's kind of the goat of that
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  S2: era for Australian women's basketball, and she was great to
• 7:30
  S2: talk to because when she was in the WNBA, she
• 7:33
  S2: wasn't earning anywhere more than $200,000 a year, say. So
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  S2: she would be travelling in Europe in the off season
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  S2: to subsidize her income, to kind of reach that million
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  S2: dollar mark or more. She said that it's just life changing,
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  S2: were her words. It's a major milestone, she said, and
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  S2: something that they've been talking about for forever. It means
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  S2: that players won't have to travel in their off seasons
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  S2: and play basketball year round. They can rest and recover,
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  S2: they can train and they can get better.
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  S1: I was going to say like, presumably they'll be able
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  S1: to play like heaps even better than they are now, right?
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  S2: Well, hopefully, which means the quality of the game goes up,
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  S2: which means more people watch it, which means there's even
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  S2: more money in it and women's sport.
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  S1: Because arguably they were being hamstrung, right? Like if they're
• 8:13
  S1: having to, you know, do all this other playing and
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  S1: travel overseas and they're not getting rest like that makes
• 8:18
  S1: it harder for them to play the best, right?
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  S2: Absolutely. And you would be hard to find a player
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  S2: in the WNBA that wasn't playing in some kind of
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  S2: league in their off season.
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  S1: And so the jump in the individual salaries, right? Like
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  S1: in this CBA, that's one of the biggest changes, right,
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  S1: with this new collective bargaining agreement.
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  S2: Yeah, that's one of the biggest ones. And it's certainly
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  S2: the one that brings the most eyeballs because that money
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  S2: difference is just astounding. Last year, the maximum salary, as
• 8:46
  S2: we said before, was about 250,000 USD to 300,000 USD.
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  S2: Now the maximum salary is 1.4 million, and the lowest
• 8:54
  S2: paid players this year will earn more than last year's richest.
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  S2: So everybody is earning more.
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  S1: Okay, but tell us now. We have to get to it. Like,
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  S1: how much less do the female players in the WNBA?
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  S1: How much less do they get paid than their male
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  S1: counterparts in the NBA? So how bad is it still?
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  S2: Yeah. So there's an awesome little table that The Athletic did,
• 9:19
  S2: which helps us understand this. So the new salary cap
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  S2: in the WNBA is 7 million. That's how much teams
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  S2: have to spend in a season on their players. Last
• 9:30
  S2: year it was 1.5 million. When we compare to the NBA,
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  S2: their salary cap is 154.6 million.
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  S1: Wow.
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  S2: So the maximum salary this year will be 1.4 million
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  S2: in the WNBA and in the NBA, it's 54.1 million.
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  S1: Okay. So are the women still getting rorted? Like in
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  S1: terms of how much money WNBA is bringing in? We're
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  S1: talking about the merchandise and the greater popularity of the game.
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  S1: And as you've written, you know, since the last CBA
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  S1: was signed, the WNBA has boomed. So people are making
• 10:01
  S1: money off these women. Right. Are the women still being
• 10:02
  S1: rorted with this deal? Do you think.
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  S2: There wasn't anybody that I spoke to players, agents, former
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  S2: players that agreed that this current salary was what the
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  S2: women deserved? Wow. They all think that it's a huge step.
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  S2: But when we talk about paying what you're owed, nobody
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  S2: agreed that this was what was owed. However, it is
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  S2: a huge step forward and I don't think that can
• 10:26
  S2: be underestimated. And also the WNBA does not make the
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  S2: revenue that the NBA makes.
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  S1: Absolutely.
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  S2: And that was why a share of the revenue was
• 10:35
  S2: what the women's players were actually pushing for more than
• 10:38
  S2: increases in salary more than all the other benefits, like
• 10:41
  S2: off the court pay for, you know, maternity leave, things
• 10:45
  S2: like that. They wanted an equal share of the revenue
• 10:48
  S2: that the men's players got.
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  S1: And is that what they're getting?
• 10:51
  S2: No. So in the NBA, the men are mandated to
• 10:55
  S2: receive between 49 to 51% of the revenue, whereas the
• 10:59
  S2: women were only earning 10% of that last year. The
• 11:02
  S2: figure will now double, but it's still only 20%.
• 11:04
  S1: Okay.
• 11:05
  S2: It's something. But hopefully when the revenue continues to increase,
• 11:10
  S2: the women will get more of that. And there is
• 11:12
  S2: definitely an idea that we want this growth to be sustainable.
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  S2: So step by step.
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  S1: After the break.
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  S2: I think this story feels personal because we have gender
• 11:27
  S2: pay gaps in every industry in the world. And I
• 11:30
  S2: think that it is so powerful to get the highest
• 11:35
  S2: profile players asking, simply pay us what you owe us.
• 11:47
  S1: Okay, so in terms of what this reflects more broadly,
• 11:49
  S1: I guess let's start with how it reflects something. Or
• 11:52
  S1: if it does in sport, like does this jump though?
• 11:55
  S1: It's not sufficient. Does this jump reflect how interested the
• 11:58
  S1: public is in women in sport, whether both here and
• 12:01
  S1: overseas or one or the other?
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  S2: Definitely. And when we talk about like the timing of
• 12:06
  S2: the CBA pairing up with this massive growth in viewership
• 12:10
  S2: in the WNBA, that's no surprise. We've never had more
• 12:14
  S2: people watching women's basketball and spending their money watching it
• 12:18
  S2: and on merchandise than ever before. So that totally adds up.
• 12:23
  S2: And we know that women's sports growing, but we also
• 12:25
  S2: know that it grows when there is that financial investment.
• 12:29
  S2: So it's got to see an increase in money for
• 12:32
  S2: women's sport to grow.
• 12:33
  S1: And so how does that work? Can you walk us
• 12:35
  S1: through that just briefly, is it sort of like, well,
• 12:36
  S1: we need the money because the money is used for
• 12:38
  S1: marketing and therefore there's greater exposure, or is it something else?
• 12:41
  S2: I mean, it's it's kind of everything, right? And it's
• 12:43
  S2: not even just women's sport. You can look at it in,
• 12:46
  S2: in kind of any business that you're trying to run.
• 12:48
  S2: But a great example, I think, is the Women's Super
• 12:51
  S2: League in the UK, which is the current best women's
• 12:54
  S2: soccer league globally. It's where most of our Matildas play.
• 12:59
  S2: And as we mentioned before, Sam Kerr's salary at Chelsea
• 13:01
  S2: is believed to be less than £500,000 a year, and
• 13:05
  S2: the clubs that do well in that league are the
• 13:07
  S2: clubs that invest more money in their women's team Arsenal,
• 13:10
  S2: Chelsea and Manchester City and we haven't seen a title
• 13:14
  S2: fight from any team outside of that, like ever. Yeah.
• 13:18
  S2: So we see a really direct correlation between these traditionally
• 13:23
  S2: men's clubs investing in their women's teams. And we see
• 13:26
  S2: financial growth as a result. So for example Arsenal women
• 13:30
  S2: weren't allowed to play at the Emirates Stadium. So the
• 13:33
  S2: men's home ground without permission until very recently.
• 13:36
  S1: So I guess this brings me to my next question,
• 13:38
  S1: which is okay, so viewership interest in in women's sports
• 13:41
  S1: and certainly in women's basketball, that's boomed. The merchandise is
• 13:44
  S1: going up. Obviously, the women have had these massive boosts
• 13:47
  S1: in in their salaries. Does this reflect something more broadly
• 13:51
  S1: in the culture about women? And if so, tell us how.
• 13:54
  S2: I think it's definitely shows that there's been changed in
• 13:59
  S2: how men perceive women's sport, because a lot of the
• 14:04
  S2: people I spoke to said that this is what women
• 14:07
  S2: and female athletes have always worked towards. So maybe there's
• 14:10
  S2: a perception changing in women outside of women's sport and
• 14:14
  S2: men outside of women's sport. I also think it's no
• 14:18
  S2: longer being viewed as something that is an accessory to
• 14:21
  S2: men's sport. These women's sports are standing on their own.
• 14:24
  S1: And how so? Like to those of us like myself, Francis, who,
• 14:28
  S1: you know, aren't avid followers and really aren't across it,
• 14:31
  S1: like how so? How is it no longer being seen
• 14:33
  S1: as this sort of adjunct?
• 14:34
  S2: Well, I think a good example is that these clubs
• 14:37
  S2: are recognizing that there's a new market for women's sport.
• 14:41
  S2: It's not men's sport fans that are coming across to
• 14:44
  S2: women's teams. It's this tapping into women that maybe haven't
• 14:48
  S2: engaged in sport before. And that's why we're seeing these
• 14:51
  S2: booms in attendance to and demographic differences in Matildas games
• 14:56
  S2: or you know. Yeah. Arsenal women's games.
• 14:59
  S1: As in there's just lots of more women going to this.
• 15:01
  S2: There's a lot more women, a lot more families.
• 15:03
  S1: And are they marketing to these groups in particular? Is
• 15:05
  S1: that is it like a real conscious thing that that's
• 15:08
  S1: been happening?
• 15:08
  S2: Yeah, I would say so. And I think the WNBA
• 15:10
  S2: is a really good example of that. It targets younger
• 15:13
  S2: women and even the National Women's Basketball League we have
• 15:17
  S2: here just signed a really cool deal with Sephora, which
• 15:20
  S2: I think is a great example of realizing that these
• 15:23
  S2: traditional avenues for money generation in men's sport aren't going
• 15:29
  S2: to work in women's sport. We've got new fans, new markets.
• 15:32
  S1: That is actually so interesting. And so do you think
• 15:34
  S1: that we'll see other women's sporting leagues follow suit with
• 15:37
  S1: boosted salaries?
• 15:38
  S2: I mean, absolutely everyone will say hopefully, but I think so.
• 15:42
  S2: I even think when we talk about that 1 million mark,
• 15:45
  S2: we finally have a WNBA player earning more than a million,
• 15:49
  S2: and now we've got more than that. And I think
• 15:51
  S2: that that will feed back into other leagues who want
• 15:55
  S2: to hit that milestone. I think there is a certain
• 15:58
  S2: amount of benevolence in women's sport. We see Michelle Kang,
• 16:02
  S2: who's this businesswoman and investor in women's sport who's just
• 16:05
  S2: buying up all these teams. And I can see someone
• 16:08
  S2: like her wanting to give a player $1 million, £1
• 16:13
  S2: million to play, to be the first to hit that
• 16:15
  S2: benchmark so that she gets the best players.
• 16:17
  S1: And do you think that's because she's a woman, or
• 16:19
  S1: do you think she just likes equality personally?
• 16:22
  S2: And maybe I'm biased. I think that women's sport is
• 16:25
  S2: a really smart thing to invest in right now. And
• 16:28
  S2: I would get in early and I would get in now.
• 16:29
  S2: And if I had the money to buy a bunch
• 16:31
  S2: of teams, I would, and I'd give them a bunch
• 16:33
  S2: of money. And I really think you'll see the investment
• 16:35
  S2: pay off because we are seeing it.
• 16:37
  S1: Yes.
• 16:38
  S2: You know, just someone hit me up.
• 16:40
  S1: Yeah. And just to wrap up, Francis, I wanted to
• 16:43
  S1: ask you about something you said earlier in the conversation
• 16:45
  S1: because it really has sort of stuck with me because
• 16:47
  S1: you said the WNBA has been around for something like
• 16:50
  S1: 30 years. I believe it was, but most of that time,
• 16:53
  S1: women actually hadn't asked for I don't know if they'd
• 16:55
  S1: never asked for more, but they certainly weren't asked, you know,
• 16:58
  S1: for what the men were getting. And I'm just wondering
• 17:00
  S1: if that sort of resonated with you or women that,
• 17:03
  S1: you know, I know that historically, they say that women
• 17:05
  S1: in a lot of industries don't necessarily ask for what
• 17:09
  S1: they deserve as much as men do. Now, you're one
• 17:12
  S1: of our youngest reporters here, so I hope you've never
• 17:14
  S1: felt this way. But do you think this is still
• 17:16
  S1: something for for young women in their 20s that they
• 17:19
  S1: don't always necessarily ask for what they deserve?
• 17:21
  S2: Yeah, absolutely. I think this story feels personal. Like I
• 17:25
  S2: was on leave when this story came up. I came
• 17:28
  S2: back from leave on a Sunday to to write this
• 17:30
  S2: story because we have gender pay gaps in every industry
• 17:34
  S2: in the world, and the WNBA MBA pay gap is huge.
• 17:39
  S2: And I think that it is so powerful and such
• 17:43
  S2: a simple idea to get the highest profile players asking,
• 17:48
  S2: simply pay us what you owe us. And I find
• 17:50
  S2: it inspirational and I hope that other people do. And
• 17:54
  S2: they take this message and it's simple ask if you're
• 17:56
  S2: owed more, ask for it.
• 18:01
  S1: Well, Frances, you know, the listeners won't know this, but
• 18:04
  S1: I've been saying for so long I wanted you on
• 18:06
  S1: this podcast. So thanks for your time.
• 18:08
  S2: Thank you for having me. And if anyone hasn't watched
• 18:10
  S2: the WNBA, now's your time to tune in.
• 18:12
  S1: Or if they've got a team for sale.
• 18:14
  S2: Oh yeah.
• 18:14
  S1: Frances is up for it.
• 18:16
  S2: I'll have to leave journalism.
• 18:17
  S1: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Don't. Don't do it. Thanks, Frances.
• 18:21
  S2: Thank you so much.
• 18:29
  S1: In other news today, new polling shows Donald Trump's popularity
• 18:33
  S1: in Australia has plunged to its lowest level due to
• 18:37
  S1: the war in Iran. Australians are back to using cash,
• 18:40
  S1: with the first turnaround in the use of money in
• 18:43
  S1: almost two decades, according to research from the reserve Bank,
• 18:47
  S1: and a defamation trial against Australian actress and director Rebel
• 18:51
  S1: Wilson has begun in Sydney, entering its second day in
• 18:54
  S1: the federal Court. For more, go to our websites SM
• 18:58
  S1: or theage.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our
• 19:05
  S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen
• 19:09
  S1: by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show,
• 19:13
  S1: follow the Morning Edition and leave a review for us
• 19:15
  S1: on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.