Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 10, Season 1: Are They A Narcissist?

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Episode 10, Season 1: Are They A Narcissist? · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host trainer.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: But you're here with Doctor Hensley, our host and today
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: episode ten. Yeah, I can't believe we're already here.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Look at us. I know.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm so proud of us.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I am so proud of us.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: And I'm really excited for this episode. You do. I
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: think it's really going to intrigue a lot of people
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: because we're going to settle the debate. Are they a narcissist?
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Don't that word is used a lot, a lot, a lot.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: It's overused. Yeah, it is overused, overused, especially in the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: social media landscape. Well, and I think too, it's easy,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: you know, when you go through a really bad breakup
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: or a really bad divorce, it's just an easy label
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: to put onto someone, and a lot of people don't
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: even really. I feel like, no, this science behind narcissism, right,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: So I think we start there.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: So I'm here to bring it to you.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so let us know the science first.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's actually some debate in the psychological arena
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: around what truly causes narcissism. So older theories suggested that,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: you know, early developmental experiences causes a fragment and sense
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: of self, and narcissism is the way that the personality
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: develops to protect against that fragment and sense of self.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: There's theories that really suggest that core shame and you know,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: low self image, low self esteem is a part of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: the development of narcissism, and again that narcissism is a
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: defense mechanism against feeling that shame. But newer research and
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of Craig Malcan. He wrote a
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: book called Rethinking Narcissism, and I'm a big proponent of
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: his theories. He really emphasizes that narcissists don't necessarily have
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: coretain and that they really kind of believe that they're
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: as great as they act like they are, right, and
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: that narcissism is on a spectrum. I totally agree with
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: that opinion that narcissism is on a spectrum. So on
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: one end of the spectrum we have what's called echoism,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: and egoism is the complete opposite of narcissism. So it's
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: it's really people that are that are boundary lists, that
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: never speak up for themselves. I get walked on, trampled on, right,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: that are always like putting themselves last, you know, they
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: struggle with codependence, all those things. And then on the
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: other end of the spectrum, we have narcisstic personality disorder,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: So people who completely lack empathy, people who are exploitative,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: people who are entitled.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Right, so people can have narcissistic traits, but it doesn't
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: necessarily mean they have narcissistic personality disorder, right, And I
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: think a lot of people don't understand that. They say, oh,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: you're a narcissist, Well, would you be able to be
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: clinically diagnosed as a narcissist? And let me also add,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: this is not clinical advice. I am not your psychologist.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not a clinical psychologist. I'm a social psychologist, and
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I'm a coach. I don't do clinical psychotherapy, so this
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: is not clinical advice. I am a subject matter expert
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: on narcissism because I've been studying it for twenty years
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and studying the literature, the scientific literature around it for
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: twenty years. So I'm very well versed from a research standpoint.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I've also had a lot of personal experience with a narcissist.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: I've encountered a lot of narcissists in my practice. I
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: can't tell them they are narcissists. I can't clinically diagnose them,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: but honestly, it doesn't take a rocket scientist. Okay, the
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: DSM criteria online. But here's the thing. Here's the thing
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: about narcissism. Therapists are actually very not great at diagnosing
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: narcissism because narciss or master manipulators. They can manipulate a
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: therapist for an hour. Right. The people that know that
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: their partners are narcissists are the people that have intimate
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: relationships with the narcissist. So the research has really developed,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: and psychology is a very broad discipline. So evolutionary psychologists
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: suggests that there's an evolutionary component to narcissism, that it
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: can at times be protective, right, and can have survival benefits.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: We have Freudian psychology around really early developmental experiences as invents,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: even suggesting that those types of experiences where the needs
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: are not met properly can contribute to narcissism as an adult.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: There are other researchers that suggest that there are healthy
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: levels of narcissism, and I agree with that. I think
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: if we're looking like a dot at wane today ten scale,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you know, with one being echoism where you're a complete
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: dormat and ten being you're completely you know, narcissistic, entitled, exploitative.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Six is good? Yeah, yeah, because that means you can
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: stand up for yourself, you have a healthy amount of
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  Speaker 2: self esteem, You're more likely to advocate for yourself, You're
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: more likely to take chances to be successful because of
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: the confidence that you have, et cetera.
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  Speaker 1: It's very interesting perspective, right, looked at it this way.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there can be healthy levels of narcissism, but
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  Speaker 2: then of course you can slide up that scale, right,
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  Speaker 2: And I think it is a sliding scale. I think
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  Speaker 2: even people with NPD can hover anywhere from an eight
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  Speaker 2: to a ten.
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  Speaker 1: And can specific relationships bring that out more? Yes, yes, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that would make sense.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, the degree of threat in the relationship, right, can
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: make someone more or less narcissistic in my opinion. Okay,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: this is my opinion because there's so much science and
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: there's so many contributions to the field of studying narcissism. Again,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: from the evolutionary.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Perspectives and contradictions there are some.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we can look at it from you know,
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  Speaker 2: developmental psychology, evolutionary psychology, clinical psychology. Going into psychopathology, there
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  Speaker 2: are a lot of perspectives that psychology is a huge
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  Speaker 2: discipline and we have expertise in a lot of different areas.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of people don't realize that psychology is this
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: enormous discerning ton right now, Like, we have cognitive psychologists
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: that study thoughts, we have thoughts and emotions. We have
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  Speaker 2: developmental psychologists that study you know, human life span and
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: the development, nature and nurture and its impact on development.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: We have neuropsychologists. We have social psychologists like me who
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: study human interaction which includes the science of relationships. We
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: have just environmental environmentists, not that I'm aware of. Yeah,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: we have school psychologists and you know with clinical psychologists
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that deal with you know, mental health. So psychology is
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: just it's an absolutely enormous field and there's a little
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: contribution from all of those places. Right, how do narcissists think, Well,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: let's look at the cognitive aspects of narcissism. You know,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: how do narcissists behave in romantic relationships? Well, then you
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: would look to someone like me, right who's a social
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: psychologist or even you know, partnering with clinical psychologists who
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: are marriage and family therapists that see a lot of
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: narcissism and relationships. So the theories and the contributions are vast, right, right,
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  Speaker 2: So I'm just going to put that out there, which
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: makes it.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: That much more interesting, I think, and that much more
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: compelling to people that and I feel like that's why
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: people really hone in on it, because because it is
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: so vast and it is so complex. But what people,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think always realize is that sometimes, and this
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: is what I want to get into specifically with you
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: because of your expertise, is it sometimes it's attachment wounds, yes,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: and not narcissism. Yes, So break down the different attachment
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  Speaker 1: styleska versus a narcissist, Like what those different behaviors look like.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, So, first and foremost, attachment is really a pattern
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  Speaker 2: of behavior based on subconscious beliefs, and it's very changeable.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: It is very changeable with the right tools. Narcissism is
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: integrated into one's personality, which tends to be stable, meaning
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: that you're going to see it infiltrate multiple aspects of
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: someone's life. Where attachment wounding is really going to show
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: up in the sense of romantic relationships, narcissism sort of
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: becomes integrated, yeah, into lots of areas of their life.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Like people that have narcissistic personality disorder struggle with authority,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: So they might have trouble in their work relationships. They
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: may have trouble like with their kids sports coaches, right
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: and not agreeing with them and being you know, if
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: we're looking at over, you know, narcissists being aggressive and
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: manipulative to try to get their kid to play more
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  Speaker 2: in sports. You're gonna have issues potentially in friendships, and
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: so you're going to see it infiltrate lots of aspects
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  Speaker 2: where people with attachment problems. It really mostly shows up
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: in romantic relationships. Maybe a little bit in friendships, yeah,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: but really it's a romantic relationship issue.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a huge nuance right there, just
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  Speaker 1: right there, to be able to be like, okay, yeah,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I see these types of things in this person in
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: their entire life.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because, Yeah, the narcissists that was in my life
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: the longest struggled with employment because of a real problem
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: with authority.
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to be really good today, I really am.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you who these people are.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try to be so good because I
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: don't want to say I never want to sound bitter
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: when it comes to talking about my ex, because I'm not,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: like I'm past it. And I know that sometimes when
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: people label their ex as a narcissist, it automatically makes
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: them sound bitter.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, but but I'm really not.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not better.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: No, I witnessed it.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I'm really not bitter towards my ex at all. I
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: feel like I've kind of let that that hate go
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: for him.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I don't carry any better no.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: No, no, but man, he has a lot of those.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: So that it doesn't take a rocket scientist. Go look
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: up the DSM criteria. This is why romantic partners are
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: actually the best people to say, yeah, they're you're a
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: narcissist or not. But you need to go look up
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: the clinical criteria for NPD. Somebody can have some narcissistic traits,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: but they might not have MPDR. Right, you have to
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: meet like I think it's five out of the eight
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: criteria or something like that for the clinical diagnosis of narcissism. Okay,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: And there's different subtypes of narcissism and so I'll go
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: into that, but let me kind of go back to
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: your original question, which was, how can attachment wounds sometimes
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: mimic narcissism and how do you tell the difference. The
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: anxious preoccupied does not mimic narcissism. They're the least likely
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: to mimic narcissism. They are overly apologetic, they try hard
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: to meet people's needs, They put themselves last, they are boundaryless. Right,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: that is not indicative of narcissism. Let's shift gears to first,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: the fearful avoidant. The fearful avoidant has a huge wound
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: of betrayal and subconsciously thinks everybody's out to hurt them,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: right right, So you're a They're already living their life
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: on the defense inside of their romantic relationships. Specifically, they
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily carry that into work or friendships. It's really
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: showing up in their intimate romantic relationship. And because they
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: have a disorganized pattern of relating, the fearful avoidant can
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: be both anxious and they can activate, and they can
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: try to gain connection, and then they can when they
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: feel that they've been hurt or they're about to be hurt,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: they can deactivate. And withdraw and sort of, you know,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: slam the door in your face, right, figuratively slam the
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: door or maybe even literally slam the door in your face.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And they can, especially in conflict, be manipulative, but in mean,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: but it's unintentional manipulation.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: And they come back often and apologize all the time.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: They experience a ton of shame after they've had episodes
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: of poor behavior, and they often come back and apologize
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and say, I don't know why said that. I don't
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: know why I did that. I'm so sorry. I couldn't
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: control my anger. I don't know why I get so angry.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: The narcissist isn't going to do that. The narcissist is
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: going to say you made me do it right, or
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I didn't do it at all. They're going to completely
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: gaslight you and say it didn't even happen.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're right to control and manipulate.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Their desire is to control and manipulate, and the desire
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: is for power at all times. The fearful avoidant. The
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: reason that they can be mean during conflict is because
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: they feel they have been hurt and wronged and because
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: they have this deep, deep desire, this deep attachment need
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: to be seen, heard, and understood inside of their romantic relationship.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: They feel like, Okay, you've hurt me, so I automatically
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: and subconsciously want to lash back out at you because
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: then you'll understand me, right, and I'm fulfilling my deep
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: attachment need to be understood, and so then the playing
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: field is level. And once the playing field is level,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: then we can reconnect and repair, right and narcissists. Narcissists
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: aren't in there to repair. They're not in there to
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: be understand. They're in there to dominate, to control, to manipulate,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: and to win at absolutely all costs. Does that head home?
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I mean not just with my ex
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: but and I feel comfortable speaking about this too, but
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: with my sister in law. I mean she.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: We will not say which sister in law that now
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: you're talking about.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: No, No, I will not. I will never say names.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: And it's difficult for me to talk about because some.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Of the things you've shared with me about that have
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: made me physically sick, Like.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can you can kind of see the
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: lump in my throat right now, because it's it's painful.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: It's painful just knowing sort of what my brother is
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: going through, like secretly and not really knowing, but just
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: knowing sort of what you know she's put you know,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the whole family.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Through, right, And we're we're not saying she is a
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: diagnosed to no, no, no, no, we're not saying no.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I think we can say I can say that the
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: behavior overlaps with things that narcissists do. Let's just put
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: it that way. Yeah, you know, you want to be careful.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And it's interesting that I am bringing her up because
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: this morning when I woke up and I was getting
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: my coffee, this is funny, I'll admit it. It's fine,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: you know what. And if she listens, or my brother listens,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: or whoever listens, it's okay because this isn't This is
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: coming from a place of it really is coming from
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: a place of love.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: And and all you're saying is that you've noticed behavior
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: that isn't good. Oh it's not, and it's hurtful.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: And it's not and it's not good for children. And
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: it makes me sad. It makes me sad for her,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: It makes me sad for my brother, and especially makes
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: me sad for money.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: So, nephew, So the children are the real victims of narcissists. Oh,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: let's be real clear about that. Yeah, because they'll use
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: their children, yeah, as ponds to control and to manipulate
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and to and to hurt the other.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Parents especially control.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: But you know, I was getting ready, my coffee ready
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: this morning, and so on my fridge. My fridge is
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: full of family pictures and pictures of friends and and
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: so the group family pictures. I have my sister in
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: law's face covered up with magnets just because it's too
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: painful to look at her. Like it's just it just
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: like I have. I still have anger there, I still
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: have like just all these feelings, and so it's just
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: better to just cover up her face. But you know,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I heard God's voice so strongly this morning, and it's
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: so it's so interesting that I'm bringing her up because
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I had no intention of bringing her up. It just
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: kind of jumped into my mind. But that I just
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: really needed to keep praying for you know that I
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: really really needed to pray for her and and pray
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: for whatever it is that that she has gone on,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: because I know that deep down she just has so
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: much pain. Yeah, she has so much pain, and her
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: pain comes from some really really deep rooted childhood bad stuff,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: bad stuff that of course I will respect her privacy
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and not get into. But and I know that her
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: personality and the things that that come about because of
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: those wounds aren't always intended for for malice and to
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: be mean, but they are. But they are. And there's
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: just so much hurt there. There's so much hurt. And again,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I don't you know, I I just when you say
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: certain things and I think about just the two people
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: that I feel like are the true narcissists that I've
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: known in my life. I think of my ex and
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I think of her.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be a little less less being candid. Yet, Yeah,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: I have a lot going on right now. I can't
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I can't name names. I mean, I've been open about
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: my first marriage I have. Yeah, and I'm not going
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: to diagnose my ex husband as having MPD. Somebody else
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: did that we went and saw, yeah, but I didn't.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: And he's not here to defend himself. Yeah.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: See, that's what we have to be careful.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't like. I don't like.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: It's so hard it is.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I am so stuck in this place where I am
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: using my experiences to help people heal because people have
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: to know where I came from to know where I
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: am now, because if you knew where I was and
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: the amount of abuse, serious abuse, I do know, yeah,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: you do know that I endured, like I mean, in
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: every area, every type of abuse you can imagine, and
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: how beat down I was and how just in the
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: depths of hell I was and to have crawled my
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: way out of that and to not just have come
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: to base line of being okay, but to have thrived
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: and to have grown and to have built an empire
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: around helping people heal. And I'm confident in using that word.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I'm building an empire. I'm proud of myself. And so
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: how can I not speak about what happened to me?
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: You can't not? I mean. Well, and that's another thing.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: It's like we have to sit here. We're human, Like
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: we can sit here and be professional all day long,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: but do we really relate to the people until we're
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: really really authentic and human? And you know, because I'll
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: be honest, they're like I sometimes I don't want to
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: keep my shit together when it comes to my sister
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: in law. I'm past my ex I really am, but
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: my sister in law.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Is fresh because it's still it's still ongoing.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's still ongoing and it's fresh. And my brother
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: and like all these things. I mean, just yesterday, I'm
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: like to my my sister, I'm saying things because I'm mad.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I'm mad and I'm angry and there's still a lot
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of anger there. But but it's because I'm human.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just try to be so tight lipped for
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: my kids. Yeah, you know when and here's the thing,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: my oldest daughter saw it all. She saw it all. Yeah,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: and she's just like, mom, don't gaslight me. I saw it. Yeah,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: you know. She's like, you don't have to paint a
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: rosy picture. I was there.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're just you know, I know.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: And so I'm just but when he comes up, I
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: just try to like, oh, that was a good quality
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: about your dad. He could do this or he could
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: do that. I try so hard. And because my youngest
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: doesn't really remember her father. He passed away in twenty
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: twenty and she was three, and she doesn't really remember
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: much of him. I want to paint a picture of
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: somebody who had good qualities because why wouldn't I? Yeah,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: why would not I? Because he did have some good qualities.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: No person and even a narcissistus without good qualities.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I can sit here and name off half a
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: dozen good qualities about my ex and like three of
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: them one about my sister.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I and gosh, I don't want to give
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: too much information. There's another narcissist in my life that
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: has been extremely abusive to me and to people that
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I love, and it is re traumatizing and it's like,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, here we go again. But this time
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I'm so much stronger. I have faith, I'm not going
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: to be I don't live in bitterness. I'm not absorbed.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: It's not as impactful to me, and I have such
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: strong boundaries and such strong like Nope, you can't do this. Nope,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I won't participate with that. Nope, you know. And so
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I'm better off this time. But you know, it hurts
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: not just me, it hurts other people around me.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Sure ing part. I mean, that is the most maddening
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: part of having to deal with a narcissist within your life,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: wherever that circle may be or wherever the the dynamic is.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: The ripple effect is huge, so huge.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Because I mean, even with my brother, because we all.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't gonna we know now which sister
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: in law it is. It's okay, it's fine. Shell. She
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: may or may not watch this.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: Well, it's gonna be bad if she does.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: If she does, maybe she needs to hear it.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, Oh, maybe she needs to hear you know, the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: defamation ain't coming towards me.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, she needs to hear it. And so
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: but that ripple effects because here's what hurts me so
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: bad is because it hurts my brother. Yeah, and I
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: see what it does to my brother, and I see
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: how beat down he is.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And your nieces.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I've seen the evolution of his being beat down,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and it is devastating, devastating, It is devastating. Oh.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And I work with clients all the time that are
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: victims of narcissistic abuse. And I don't say I'm not like, hey,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: your partner's a narcissists, but I will say, hey, do
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you have concerns that your partner's a narcissist? And usually
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: this way say yes, And I will say, well, here's
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: the DSM criteria. You're closest to the person you're you know,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: if they fit these criteria or not. So I'm gonna
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: let you do that research and then if you would
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: like to go see, you know, a clinical psychologist to
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: just you know, try to get more information or to validate,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: you know, do that because I don't make diagnoses.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Narcissists usually don't want to be diagnostis narcissists.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Though there is actually the term is overused, but I
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: will also say that I think it's under diagnosed because again,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: therapists that are just meeting with somebody for an hour
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: who's a master manipulator, who can put a mask on
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: and charm anyone can absolutely show up as a normal
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: person inside of that therapeutic session, right, But then they
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: can go home, shed the mask and be insanely abusive
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: towards their intimate partner.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Right, And like you said in the beginning, like if
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: the partner, because let me say this, my brother is
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: far from perfect. There's some mental illness there, you know,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: And so I mean I have no doubt that some
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: of his mental illness has pushed my sister's mental illness
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: even further down the side.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean that's always a possibility,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: right in situations. Yeah, you know, I'm not super I'm
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: not really that familiar with their relationship other than just
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: you know what I've the little that I've observed and heard, right,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: But I know in my own experience that my insecure attachment,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: so fearful avoidance, which is what I was, what you were,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: are notorious for attracting narcissists. Why because they have the
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: betrayal wound, and the subconscious is a giant, self fulfilling prophecy.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: It seeks the familiar. So if you truly believe that
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: everybody will hurt you, you are of course going to
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: seek out people that will inevitably hurt you, right, And
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: so the only way to stop being attracted to narcissists
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and abusive people, or people with addictions or that are
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: severely avoidant or whatever is to earn your attachment security.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: That's the only way you're going to get out of it,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: because you will keep repeating it. You will not see
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the red flags or you'll dismiss them, and you're going
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: to keep going after the same type type of people.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, I have people that are on their third
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: marriage with a narcissist. They're and they're like, how did
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I get here? And I'm like, because your attachment wounds
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: seek that familiarity, and they a lot of narcissists are
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: wrapped up in different packages. You know, I believe that
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: my dad was a covert narcissist. I do. I believe
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: he was an extremely vulnerable narcissist. And do I think
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that my mom made it worse? Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: But I think it was just like which came first,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: the chicken or the egg. She's dealing with somebody who's narcissistic,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: and that's going to make you bitter and rain, and
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: it's going to make any attachment insecurities that you do
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: have exacerbated. So the main difference between people with attachment
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: wounds and narcissism is one narcissism is largely unchangeable because
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: it's integrated into the personality. It has a ninety nine
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: percent failure rate in psychotherapy. That should tell you something, right, Like,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: there's not a lot of hope. Right. The entire premise
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: of narcissism is lack of empathy and lack of self awareness. Right, Like,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the narcissists don't know their narcissists, They just don't. They
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: don't know they're narcissists.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: What happens, What happens, and like, I have some theories,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: well I want to hear them, Okay, because I'm very curious,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: like what happens in childhood that creates that.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is I'm going to say, this is my
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: personal belief because I've looked at again the contributions from
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: evolutionary psychology. I think there's contributions from neuropsychology showing that
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: narcissists tend to have, you know, improper levels of MAO.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: They might have higher TESTOSTERONESO. It's a neurotransmitter in the
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: brain is largely responsible for things like mood regulation. So
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: you'll see you'll see on commercials for like MAO inhibitors
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: for depression, things like that. Okay, there are again developmental
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: theories of parenting dynamics. I have a very specific theory
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: regarding overt narcissism because that was what I felt like
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I dealt with my with with my ex. I think,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: particularly with a lot of male overt narcissists that tend
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: to be like serial cheaters and tend to be very manipulative.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I think they had a specific dynamic where Dad was
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: largely absent and Dad was overly harsh and punishing and
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: then we have a mother that drastically overcompensated and drastically
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: over praised and enabled. Okay, exactly, Okay, So we have
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: a child who desperately seeks and so I'm talking about
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: men here, validation from same sex parent doesn't get any
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: of it, only gets criticism, right, And then we have
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: a mother who soothes that wound through praising and through enabling, right,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: So they learn to become addicted to the praise and
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: validation of women. So then you grow up with a
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: man who can only feel okay when there is a
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: woman telling him you're amazing. So those type of narcissists
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: that become the serial cheaters, which is what you and
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I experienced, right, is because they grew up only being
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: soothed by that validation from mom.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Man, my mind is blowed blown.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: But then they're But then there are people that like
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: my father, who may rest in peace in My dad again,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: had some good qualities, but he had a lot of problems,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of problems. I think he was completely misdiagnosed
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: as bipolar. I don't think my dad was bipolar. I
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: think my dad was a narcissist, and I think maybe
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: he had some borderline potential borderline issues as well. But
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: my dad's family dynamic, very abusive stepfather, extremely critical mother,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: mother that was very narcissistic and extremely critical, and he
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: got no emotional attonement. And then he found out that
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: his dad wasn't his real dad when he was eighteen
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: years old, so there was a huge betrayal. His stepfather,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: which he thought was his biological father, and his biological
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: mother had a child that was extremely favored. So he
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: grew up sort of with this golden child in the family,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and he was the you know, black sheep of the family, right,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: and so there's this there's this defense. There was always
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: this offensiveness in my dad that like he couldn't take
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: an ounce of criticism. And my dad had extremely low
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: self awareness. I think that was one of his most
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: difficult qualities. That made socialization for him very difficult, because
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: if you really lack self awareness, you don't do too
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: well in social situations. You can't read a room, you
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: can't read emotions, can't read other people. And he struggled
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: with that. But then he had an extreme sense of
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: entitlement and he was always the victim. Yeah, So yeah,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I mean that's one of the diagnostic criteria is an
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: extreme sense of entitlenes.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: That's the difference between covert and.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, overt narcissists are grandiose. They make it. They
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: brag on themselves. Like my ex always had to talk
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: about how he was the best in sports, or how
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: he got such good grades in school, or how he
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: was the top of his class. I mean, he's always
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: kind of like patting himself on the back to the
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: point where other people are looking at him going like
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: that's weird, right, but they don't notice it. Right. They're grandiose.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: They have fantasies of power. They only want to associate
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: with powerful people or people that are special. They see
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: themselves as extremely special, and their abuse is more overt.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: It's easier to see. They can become aggressive. Their manipulation
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: is it's right out there for everyone to see. Right.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: A covert narcissist a little bit more on the deal,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: very much more on the deal. Oftentimes they'll come across
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: as kind and I'm just trying to be helpful.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Those are the really tough ones.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm just such a victim. I've been
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: such a victim my whole life. Everybody else has treated
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: me so poorly, and I try so hard to put
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: such good into the world, you know, and pour me
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: and I'm just so downtrodden. Right. And the ways that
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: they manipulate and control are often through in action versus
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: overt aggression or.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Action, which actually leads to the DA and the narcissist because.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Getting confused because the DA pulls away and they freeze
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: and they and they don't participate, and it's in action, right.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: So let me show you the difference between in action
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: versus action. So, you know, an overt narcissist who's very grandiose,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: might you know, buy you a car and then get
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: mad at you and take the keys away and say
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: you can't drive this car anymore.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: That sounds so familiar.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Where did that happen to you? Right? That's an overt action, right.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: A covert narcissist, for example, like my dad may have
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: been in charge of paying the bills, and then if
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: they pay a bill late and they get criticized like
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: you know, oh, you know, why was that bill late,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: they'll just stop paying the bills and not say a
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: word and then let the electric get shut off and
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: then point to you and say, well, you seem to
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: know how to do it. Why don't you go pay
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: the bills? You know, if it's so easy, you go
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: do it. So it's that in action, right, And then
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: sometimes in relationships and co parenting, it'll be like lack
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: of responding. It will be lack of follow through and
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: doing what you say you're going to do, like not
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: taking kids to the sporting events that the other parents
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: signed up for. Those are the inactions of the vulnerable narcissists.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: So the actions of the vulnerable narcissists, which is also
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: used synonymously with the term covert narcissists. I'm not saying
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: they can't have over abuse. They can, but they tend
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: to really sculpt it, shape it twisted, to make it
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: look like it was your fault that it happened, right,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Whereas an overt narcissist is just more willing to put
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: it out there.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah it's there, and both of our exits.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely overt, yes, but I have dealt with the
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: covert and it's more insidious. Give me an overt any day,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: because you can kind of see them coming, right, you
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: can predict them. The vulnerable narcissists than victim narcissists the coverts.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: You don't see it coming, Yeah, and a lot harm
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: because I mean they have to a degree been victimized
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: in their life. Yeah, they have, and they just get
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: stuck there.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: They get stuck there, They get stuck in the victim
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: role and they and they cannot And the one thing
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: across the board is narcissists can't take accountability and they
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: cannot apologize. It was never their fault. It never will
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: be their fault. It's always someone else's fault.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: And you know held video on that the other day.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I left that video actually about how the number one
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: cause of divorce.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Isn't lack of accountability.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you're right on that.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: They can't. They can never say it was my fault.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I made a mistake, I'm sorry. And so that's where
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: going back to the attachment wounds versus narcissism. Even the DA,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: let's take the DA. The DA avoids conflict. They run
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: away from conflict, and that can look manipulative, like you're
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: stonewalling me, when really their nervous system is so overwhelmed
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: they've gone into a free state. They can't help it,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: right until they get the tools to learn how to regulate.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: A narcissist is stonewalling you out of control, right like, oh,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: you did me wrong, I'm not going to speak to you.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: How does that feel?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: And fas can do that a little bit, but they
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: back down real quick. The narcissist will make you beg
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to re engage, whereas the fearful avoidant might come back
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: with apologies and re engage. And you know, so, attachment
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: wounds don't show the deep lack of empathy in a
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: sustained way that narcissists do. You know, they might have
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: a spiteful moment. The fearful of weight it might have
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: a spiteful moment, or the DA might shut down in
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: stone wall, but they're not doing it because they want
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: to control and manipulate you, right like for a long
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: period of time. They're doing it out of pain and
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: out of nervous system dysregulation. The narcissist knows absolutely what
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: they're doing and why they're doing it, and they feel
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: no remorse for doing it.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And they think they're right. Yeah, I mean, that's why
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: they do it.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: And the crazy thing about narcissism that people don't understand
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: is narcissists think that everybody thinks the way that they do.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: They think that everybody is out to control, everybody's out
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: to manipulate. It's a power game and they have to win.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: They think that everybody has the bad intentions that they do. Think.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: This is why my I mean, it's why my ex
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: still chooses to have no relationship with me because he
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: feels like, in his mind, I'm still out to ruin him.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was never out to ruin him now,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: but he seriously feels like I'm out to ruin him,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: manipulate his life, and do whatever I possibly can to
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: make his life a living hell. And I'm like, dude,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: you ain't that important. I don't, Like, I don't have
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: that much power, right Like, how could I have that
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: much power to even do that if I wanted to.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: I don't want to. I have no desire to. It
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: would require too much energy to do that. But that's
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: really how he deep down he feels. Yeah, he feels like,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: oh no, you're just gonna you know, you're here to
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: ruin my life.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm not.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: I don't care that.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: No, I know, and you know, in dealing with a
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: narcissistic individual in my life right now, it's the same thing.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: It's like, we don't care about you.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we just want peace, like.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: We are happy in our lives. We don't care about you.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: And you can't stand that you are irrelevant in our lives.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: You cannot take it. So you have to cause problems,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: You have to cause trouble because the loss of the
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: relevance is something that they cannot take. The rejection a
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: narcissist is it's one thing they can't take its rejection again.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And that's why your ex still doesn't speak to you
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: because you rejected him and he cannot move on.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he'll he'll he'll speak. So he has another
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: child by another woman.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: And I'm again I'm not diagnosing him with narcissism.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Let's we're just giving our opinion. But you know, he
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: has a child with another woman, and he'll speak to her.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: But she didn't reject him, she didn't leave him. He
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: left her, he didn't want her, Yeah, and so he'll
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: have a relationship with her that refuses to have one
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: with me.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yep. It's the ego. It's that slice to the ego
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: that they just can't Yeah. I mean, I saw a
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: mean the other day that says no one hates you
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: more than the person you didn't choose. Yeah, I felt that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: But here's the irony of it. Deep down, I don't.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: It's not because he it's not because he wants me anymore. Right,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like my ex still wants me. He
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: just wants me to still want him.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a power because it's about power.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: It's about power. You ended up with the power, right.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Which is peace. Yeah, I have peace and I'm happy.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: I'm genuinely happy, and I'll be honest, I want that
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: hip for him too. I want him to let go
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and the hurt because I want him to experience the
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: same peace, joy and happiness that I have.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Well, because that would be what was best for your son,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: absolutely right. But the narcissist doesn't want what's best for
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: their child. They want to win, and even if it
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: means using their child. They will manipulate their children, They
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: will make their children lie, they will alienate, you know,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: their children against another parent. That is what they do
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: because they have to, because the pain of rejection is
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: so deep and the desire for revenge on that to
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: tip the scales right is so deep. Right, Like, will
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: you hurt me, will buy Golly, I'm going to hurt
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: you worse, and I'm going to show you and I'm
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: going to get revenge on you. And I'm never going
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: to let this go.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it makes me so sad for my son,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: of course, because in that type of situation, like my
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: hands are just sort of todd, Like they're just todd.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: You know, all I can do is reinforce that.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: That I've tried to explain that I want to be again,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: It's like I hesitate because I want to be careful
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: what I say. Yeah, of course, just in the event
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: that you know, my ex would ever watch this, I
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: have no idea, but or in the event that my
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: child would ever watch it. But I I just want
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: John Paul to know that his dad's pain, and this
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: is a discussion that we had a few weeks ago,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: is not his burden to bear and and John Paul
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: really struggles with that because John Paul is this perpetual
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: people pleaser and he wants everyone to be emotionally okay,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: and so when he sees that his dad is not.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: And there was a specific example, you know, that happened
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: when they were on vacation that you know, my son
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: had told me about and it's so hard to know
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: what to say and in those circumstances without throwing his
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: dad under the bus. Sure, because I don't want to.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I don't want to. Now I'll admit behind closed doors
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: or if I'm talking to my you know, Josh, my
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: husband or you, I'll be like, well, there's this easy,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: teensy bit of satisfaction that like, he truly is who
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I thought he was, and it proves to my son
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: why I couldn't stay. But at the same time, it
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: makes me deeply sad for him because he can't have
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the relationship that I would want for him to have
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: with his dad, which is one of mutual respect and
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: love and one that he doesn't have to walk on
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: eggshells around, because right now I feel like that's really
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: what he's having to do.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: And it is sad. And it is so sad to
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: see a narcissistic parent in the relationship with their children,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, because children aren't want to love both parents.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: They deserve to be able to love both parents. But
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: the narcissists will always alienate, they will always disparage the
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: other parent. You know, if there's a divorce or break up,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: and yeah, and inside the inside the marriage, even if
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: you're still married to them.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: They will do that.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: And they won't stop. It doesn't matter who tells them
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: to stop, It doesn't matter what the effects are, They're
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: going to keep doing it. And then eventually what happens
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: is the child grows up, and if the child isn't narcissistic,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: if they don't develop narcissisticistic personality disorder as a result
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: of their narcissistic parent, they start to really see it,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: which is in a way a good thing, but also
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: a very sad thing because you have to go, oh, wow, like,
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: my parent's really not capable of a healthy love and
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: I'm never going to get that from them, and they're
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: always going to hate the other parent who's half of me.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: And that's sad. Yeah, I mean, I think that so
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: wrong because I don't want to throw it. Yeah, I
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: don't want to.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: So so wrong to use your children to get back
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: at your ex. It is wrong to disparage your ex
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: to your child. It is wrong to talk poorly to
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: your you know, in any way to your child about
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: their other parent. You should never ever ever do that.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: It's horrible. It's coercive abuse, it's alienation. And I don't
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: care if your ex is the worst thing in the
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: entire world, that you have to realize that your child
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: wants to love them and deserves to love them. And
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying there's not boundaries you might have to
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: put in place to protect your child. Absolutely there might
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: be boundaries, you know, and that's that's okay, But you
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: can't be the parent that's going look see see how
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: bad they are, See how crazy they are, Look what
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: your Look what your mom's trying to do, Look what
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: your dad's.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Trying to do. Are four right?
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Like you're yeah, go go go with your friends and
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: bash your ex all day, but don't take it home
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: to your kid.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Your child's not meant to be your confidant in that aspect.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Oh that's parentification is.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I have really tried. I have failed at times, I
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: have failed. I am hure.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Hey, I around you a long time. You are from
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: what you've been through, you've done a.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Great Thanks friend, Thanks, I have really tried, and.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: You really I always try and I will.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Always speak highly of John Paul's dad to him, I mean,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: even when he was telling me about the circumstance and
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: what happened, you know, And I told him, you know,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: your dad's pain is not your your you know, it's
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: not for you to carry. I was like, but you
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: know what, your dad has a big heart. He's sensitive.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I was like, he always has been sensitive. I was like,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: and you know he carries a lot of his pain
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: because his heart is so big, right, And I meant it, yeah,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: maybe sort of. I meant it for John Paul because
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: I want John Paul to be that I see the
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: good in his dad.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: I loved this man at one time. Of course, I
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: see the good.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Needed a child.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: He's half half of John Paul, right, And.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: So you don't want him to go while half of
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: me is bad.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: That's not okay, Right, It's never ever, ever okay. And
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: I try. I'm in the same boat. I mean, even
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: though my excess passed, it's hard with my oldest because
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: my oldest saw it. Like there was one time where
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: when when I divorced him and he was moved finally
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: moving out of the house, he screamed at both of
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: us so much that we were cowering in the corner
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: while he was screaming at the top of his lungs,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Like my daughter was eight.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she has memories of course.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: So in some sense she's been like, mom, don't gas
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: like me, like, don't don't say that, like, don't paint
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: a picture of this person who he wasn't And so
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: that hurts me too because I'm like, dang.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't win.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: I can't win.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: That's what I mean. Your hands are tied, no matter what,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: your hands are tied, right, comes to your child and
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: trying to protect them.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Right, and so I just try to focus on like
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: good qualities, Like my ex was really intelligent, like in fact,
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: he was gifted. He had extremely high IQ. He took
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: the eight, he took the ACT when he was like thirteen,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: and like got invited to Duke because he scored higher
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: than like your average high school senior.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Girls are going to be like brainy act.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: My my girl, my oldest is gifted. She's extremely high IQ.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: My oldest, I mean she got she's fluent in Spanish
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: in seventh grade, fluent, completely fully fluent in Spanish. Amazing.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: She was chosen as like one of like the top
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: the Spanish teacher was trying to get extra credentials and
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: she had to pick two students that she's ever worked
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: with to like speak and like do this project, and
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: my daughter was chosen. She earned a high school credit
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: in Spanish in seventh grade. She earned a high school
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: credit in algebra in seventh grade. She's been on the
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: principal list for academics. She's in Gifted and Talented her
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: she was doing algebra in like second grade.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Well, and she's obviously very emotionally smart, too, emotionally intelligent. Yeah,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: don't gaslight me about that, mom, I know how like
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: I know I saw.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Her right And she has such a beautiful heart.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she does, just.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Such a beautiful heart. Like that child has so much
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: empathy and compassion for the world. And she's been through
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: so much. And she she did trauma therapy. She's actually
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: was released from therapy. She doesn't need therapy anymore, her
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: trauma therapist said. Actually, her trauma therapist said the other week,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I don't even really know why I'm still seeing her.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: I can't prove medical necessity at this point. She's so
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: well adjusted.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. And so that Babby's gonna like I know
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, but I feel like she's
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: going to end up in like New York City as
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: like this like famous artist, sir, I don't, I don't know,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: like just something like.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: She is gonna be She's gonna be one of the
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: most successful human beings because she has the intellect and
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: the emotional intelligence and the good heart.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah you know, yeah, and the drag beautiful.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: And she's just this amazing, amazing kiddo. And yet this
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: kid saw me get physically abused, emotionally abused, financially abused.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: She saw chaos.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: But I mean that's all you, though, Mom. I mean seriously,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I have known you for a long time too, and
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: you've done all you can to help her bounce back
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: and be the person that she has become. That's all you.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Seriously. We're very blessed because I mean, John Paul is
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: a fantastic, well adjusted child too. I mean sometimes I look,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: I figured I figured this would be one we would
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: cry because these are really painful things to talk about.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Such a good kid she is.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: She is.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: We are very blessed.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: And I look back on her childhood and I'm like, how,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I know, I look at John, how happen?
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: How did we not mess you up? More?
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: How did I not screw you up? I know, how
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: did I not screw you up? But she's able to
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: talk about But I mean, part of it is I
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: got a really great trauma therapist for her. I mean
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: doctor Abbie Jones. Shout out to doctor Abbie Jones. She
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: is on TikTok follow her. The progress she made with
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: my daughter was fantastic. And you have to get you
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: get you have to have help.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you do.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: And I learned as I healed myself. I learned. And
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: I've always kind of been a proponent of attachment parenting,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: like you know, picking your child up when they cry,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: you know, really providing emotional attunement. Oh, I see why
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: you would feel like that. Oh I bet that did
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: make you feel sad, didn't it. I understand that. Learning
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: to challenge thoughts, Wow, that's a that's a really strong
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: stance on that. Let's challenge that thought, right, and so
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: that my my child doesn't catastrophize, my child doesn't use
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: black and white thinking. Because luckily, with my training, I've
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: been able to intervene and say, oh, yeah, that's really painful.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: What would you say that emotion is that you're experiencing?
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: How do you where do you feel it in your body,
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Let's focus on that. Let's focus on taking it out
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: of your body. Right, So I feel like and and
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: doctor Abbey taught me a lot about working with a
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: child with trauma, and so I mean, I did everything
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: I could.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: You did a great job.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you. And then I think that's why somebody who
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: hurts my child, I'm like, the strongest boundary I can
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: possibly put in place, I will put in place if
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: you are going to hurt my child enough. Yeah, like,
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: don't you dare?
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: And she's like, don't you dare?
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Come for her?
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: It's ironic. Her story is similar to yours in terms of,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: you know, rising from the ashes like a phoenix. And
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: I mean because she has been from a very young age,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: you know, from a very young age, pretty trumatized and
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: been through a lot and kind of had to do
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the work to bounce back. And that's really difficult.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: And she's been good for a few years, she's been
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: good for many years now. She's, like I said, the
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: child she's half fluent in Japanese.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Japanese.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: She's taught herself, taught herself Japanese.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: She usually fluent in Spanish and half fluent in.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Japanese, like getting becoming fluent in Japanese, and she wants
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: to do she wants to do an exchange program in Japan.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she does. And she's very so. I mean her
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: base attachment was fearful, avoidant. I would put her as secure.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: She she's more emotionally intelligent than half my clients at
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: thirteen years old. Yeah, because she's she's had to rebuild.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: And there are people that go towards PTSD, and there
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: are people that go towards post traumatic growth. And I
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: did everything I could to steer her there. And I
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: don't want to take credit because she is her own
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: human and she has to do the work. She had
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: to face the hard feelings, she had to feel those
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: hard feelings, she had to talk about those hard feelings.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: And she is a kind, loving person, Like when I
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: see so, I have a that bark app that monitors
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: her phone, so I see every text message. Right, she
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: can't cut a thing for this mama.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: And the way that she is a good friend and
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: the way that she offers other people emotional support and
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: in forgiveness when people hurt her is amazing. Yeah, and
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: I compliment. Yeah, it's really good. It shows you everything.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: I think I want to know everything that maybe I don't. Yeah,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: but so there's there's a sense of me that's like, Okay,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I'm ready to sort of you know, let that go. Yeah.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I wish they'd had that one here.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Start to Yeah, it's it's great because I mean, she's
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: a thirteen year old with the with all the internet
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: exposed to her, right like, I'm not going to let
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: her just like have full rain of everything on the
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: internet to help me know what's going on.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's smart.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: This has been a really long episode.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: It has.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: But I think, you know, let me give hope for
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: people who have children with narcissists. Please let me give
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: you hope. I'm going to look into the camera right
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: now and I'm going to say they're not necessarily going
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: to be screwed up. There are things that you can
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: do to promote their emotional well being. You can teach
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: them how to set boundaries with the narcissistic parent. You
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: can teach them emotional attunement. You can teach them and
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: foster their empathy towards others. I did it. I'm so
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: proud of my oldest child, and she went through a lot.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: So don't lose hope. If you are in a divorce
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: or a custody battle with a narcissist, just know you can.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: They can absolutely thrive.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: And I think that that is honestly a wonderful way
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: to wrap it up, because it's so many people are
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: stuck in relationships or marriages with narcissists.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Or co parenting relationships and they're.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Afraid to leave because of what they feel like it
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: will do to the child.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: Oh it can be figured out, yes, and it will,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: and it will.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: Take time and there will be pain, but eventually it
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: will get figured out. We sit here as living proof
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: that it's possible.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Your son is amazing too. Yeah, back on your son
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: for just one second.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's you know, I mean there's a million things
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: that I could say that I won't get into, but
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: John Paul of course is. You know, he's thrived in
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: terms of you know, his academics and the Junior ROTC.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Junior ROTC. I mean he that I give a lot
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: of props to the ROTC because he's sort of found
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: his his calling there his freshman year at Henry Clay
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: and he found as people and what it did for
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: John Paul somebody who didn't have a whole lot of confidence.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: Is it created a lot of confidence in him. And
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: when he was able to have that confidence, it just
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: changed the trajectory of his whole high school career. He
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: started to make better grades, he had, you know, a
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: good group of friends. You know, he found a girlfriend.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: You know, all these things that have really helped him thrive.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: And he's a good hearted person.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: He has a huge heart, a massive heart, sometimes too
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: big of a heart, you know, I mean you because
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: there are obviously there are so many things like sitting here,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: listen to you talk. You know, if I could go
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: back and do one thing differently, I would have put
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: John Paul in therapy at an early age. And I
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: didn't do that, and he probably needed it. He definitely
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: needed it. And I know it's not too late, but now,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean John Paul's four month shove of
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: his eighteenth birthday. I just have to have faith that
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: he has a good enough foundation and I know that
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: he's seeing he's really starting to see things. And again,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: I want to be careful what I say, because I
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: don't want to throw him under the bus. Right But
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: John Paul, you know, prior to even you know, six
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: eight months ago, if anything came up about his dad,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: he was I mean armor on, super defensive.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Super defensive. And that is a sign when one parent
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: or when one child is so inappropriately defensive of the
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: other parent, it rings trauma bond bells.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and so. And he's let go of some
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: of that as of recently. And so I really think
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: he's starting to see, you know, some traits within his dad.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: And I say this lightly because it's not that he's
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: loving his dad any less. He loves his dad deeply,
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: so deeply, and they have a pretty good relationship. But
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: they have a good relationship because John Paul is who
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: he is. Yeah, I mean it's true.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: And here's the thing again, if you are co parenting
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: or married to a narcissistic individual, you have to understand
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: that kids grow up and they see.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: They figured it out.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: They figure figured it out out. I promise you to
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: the depths of my soul that they watch, they see,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: they learn, they know, Oh, one parent doesn't speak bad
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: about my other parent, but this parent speaks terrible of
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: my other parents. Right, this parent is always like encourages
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: my relationship with my other parent. The narcissistic parent discourages
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: my relationship with the other parent.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: And again it makes those sort of things are what
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: makes make a child feel safe, and children equate love with.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Safety, yes, yes, healthy, right, And so if the child
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: and then the young child, this is where it's sad.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: The young child of a narcissistic parent starts to realize.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: And this is where alienation can start to happen. If
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: the other parent doesn't intervene, or a court doesn't intervene
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: or whatever. Is that if I learn as a little
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: child that the only way I can gain love and
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: acceptance is to hate my other parent, I'm going to
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: start telling that parent that I hate the other parent
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: and then secretly like be torn on the inside because
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: I don't hate my other parents. I love my other parent,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: but I have to pretend and like I hate my
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: other parent to receive love and acceptance from the narcissistic parent.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: And that's sad, it's but eventually they catch.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: On beyond heartbreaking, but they do catch on, okay, And
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: if you intervene in the right way, get your child
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: in therapy. If you have to go to court to
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: get your child in therapy, get your child in therapy,
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: Provide your child with emotional atonement. Don't throw the other
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: parent under the bus. Don't be like, well, that was
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: awful of your you know dad to do. Don't do that.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Say I'm so sorry that happened. I can understand why
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: you would feel sad about that, or I understand why
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: you're confused about that. You know, I'm here for you,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: you know, if you want to talk with you know,
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: if you want to talk, like how are those emotions
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: sitting in your body right now? Like use emotional attuonement.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Get really educated on neve regulation and the regulation of
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: someone's nervous system, and teach your child how to regulate
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: their nervous system. Teach them how to process their emotions,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: Teach them what boundaries are appropriate. If you're exited something
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: completely inappropriate, it's okay to say I agree with you
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: that that was inappropriate, and then I can understand why
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: that didn't make you feel good and I'm very sorry
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: that you experienced that. But don't go and say, well,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: you know it's because your dad's a narcissist and he's
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: mentally ill and he's terrible. Don't do that, right, but
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: you can validate, and you can teach how to process
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: those difficult feelings and you can get them with a
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: good therapist that can also help them.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: And the good news is is that doctor Hensley is
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: eventually going to do an entire course on this subject.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: I am. I have studied it for twenty years. I've
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: lived it, that's right, and I'm on round two of
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: living it. Without giving any details.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: This has too, she's working on a course right now.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: My husband is amazing. My husband is not the narcissist
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: in our life. Now we just go down really clear.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: My husband is the opposite of a narcissist.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so she's currently working on a second course
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: right now. I am, but this might have to be
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: your third course for sure. It seems like you just
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: have so much knowledge on it, and I feel like
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: it just really resonates with people, especially if they're going
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: through a divorce with someone who is an ur or
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: has narcissistic traits. So if you want to learn more
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: about doctor hensley services, go to her website at the
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Datingdecoder dot com. And please, again, guys, if you are
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: enjoying this content, continue to listen, follow, subscribe, like, share, love,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: leave a review. All of the things We are just
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: so appreciative.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: To be here because I just want to help people.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, we are just we. I mean, I
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: never want to go without saying how grateful we are
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: for the community that you know follows doctor Hensley on
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: all platforms. We are just I'm so grateful to be
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: a part of it. So check check us out, keep following,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: and until next time, peace, love and perspective.