Latest / The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce / Common Divorce Mistakes That Can Cost You and How to Avoid Them | Attorney Laura Inns
Transcript
- Laura: understand you might like me I might be easy to talk to but sometimes I think it'd be great if I had like a little calculator that kind of scrolled and people could see what they were paying as they talked to me. Good good friend of mine before I ever became a divorce lawyer was going through a divorce and got like a $4,000 bill was absolutely appalled. And I looked it over and I was like, why are you emailing your attorney two times a day for a whole week? Some people can't afford a full blown attorney. What Brooke: What's one of the most common mistakes that you see clients make? Laura: I've had clients who literally have spent like $35,000 to get $35,000. There's no law that says everybody has to be reasonable here. And in fact, as far as the law is concerned, they can be very unreasonable. When you're in high conflict, there's never a reason to respond within a few hours. In fact, it should be forbidden. Brooke: The things that a lot of women struggle with is spouses that are not complying with the parenting plan or with the shared expenses or things like that. Laura: So I generally start with this. Brooke: Welcome Maura. Thank you so much for joining me and talking about divorce and helping women out there understand what to do if they're in this situation. Laura: I'm so excited to be here, Brooke. Thank you so much for having me. Brooke: Yeah, yeah. So could you please introduce yourself and tell everyone who you are and what your role is? Laura: Sure. So my name is Laura Ms. I'm an attorney. I work for myself. I practice primarily in Chicago. Most of what I do is family law, which I always say is premarital agreements, custody disputes, and divorce. That's the focus of what I do. And I am also a certified mediator as well, so I bring that skill to my law practice. Brooke: So let's talk about that first because you are a divorce attorney and a mediator. So tell us what you can and cannot do as a mediator since you are an attorney. Laura: So, as a mediator, I cannot give legal advice. And when I first became a mediator, it was even so hard for me to understand where that line is between the two. And so when I'm wearing a mediator hat, I can tell people what the law says. I cannot interpret it for them. So one of my favorite examples was I was mediating a situation and I told both people what the law said. They both came to the same conclusion as to what it meant. They were both wrong. So my legal advice would have been different. And I couldn't tell them that as a mediator. my god. And they were able to make a decision that worked for both of them, but that's that's the difference. Versus as a lawyer, when I wear that hat, I could say, Here's the law and here's what that means for you. And give them the different interpretations I've seen or the legal research, et cetera. Brooke: That must be difficult at times, especially for that when they're interpreting it wrong and you're in your head you're like, no, that's not right, but you can't say anything. Laura: Yes. It is it is fascinating to also just sit there and and be like, Okay, I have to trust that this is this is just how mediation works. And I was very proud that they were at least on the same page. Brooke: Yeah and Laura: Instead of both interpreting it opposite of each other. Brooke: Yeah, for sure. And I do think that that is a common misconception that some people might seek out mediators that are divorce attorneys or former judges or whatever, thinking in the back of their head, they're not gonna let me do anything that, you know, isn't gonna be good for me. Laura: I mean, yes, I think that that is somewhat of what people think. I I do think that the thing a divorce lawyer or former judge adds to the mediation though is really asking questions that help ensure that even if people did get legal advice, they wouldn't change their mind. You know, so my favorite thing when I'm wearing that mediator hat is to ask people like, Well, what if an attorney tells you, you know, whatever the case may be. to really make sure it's a decision that that person would stand by even if they got the opposite in legal advice. Brooke: Okay. Laura: But ideally they would also me when people mediate, ideally they would also have their own attorneys to get that advice to really understand what their rights are and what kind of the window of opportunity is. Brooke: Yeah, so let's talk about that because I think mediation is very popular right now because it's seen as low cost, less conflict. And I do think that there are people that think if you want to go the mediation route, that you don't need to have any type of legal guidance. So how can an attorney support them while still keeping costs? Laura: Yeah, and I I've seen that reluctance from people who agree to mediate to even talk to an attorney until they've reached an agreement, even though I really want them to. and and it's it's interesting how they are just so reluctant to integrate the two. But ideally you would have both because you want to be able to understand what you're agreeing to. You know, one of the things I always say makes settlement take so much longer in divorce is that people say one thing and then they learn something from their attorney or whoever else and they change their mind. And so when when you agree to something and then you take it back, it's difficult for the other person. It takes a lot longer for negotiations to happen than if you just said, Let me think about it. And by let me think about it, you might mean let me go talk to my attorney. Brooke: Exactly. You don't have to say, Well, I'm gonna go to my attorney and see what he says, you know. Laura: Right, because that's that's starting another fight, right? Exactly. Because when you're dealing with divorce, you worry each other's confident. You oftentimes were the first person you would talk to before making a decision. And now you're not. And when you sit there and say, I'm gonna go talk to my attorney instead of you, it just creates hostility. So I also usually tell my clients, just never say you're gonna talk to your attorney. Say you need to think about it. That's just much more palatable. And it reduces the emotional escalation. Brooke: For sure, because you can go on the defensive, like, wait a second, they're going to an attorney, like I gotta protect myself. Like people think that that is an attack. Laura: They do, yes. I mean, people do feel like attorneys are going to make it worse or everybody's gonna kinda be out for blood, if you will. I I don't really think that's the case. That is certainly what I would call an old school approach. I mean, I look at everything like how can we get you towards the path to settlement as quickly as possible while still making sure that it's an informed decision. Brooke: And that is the key, informed decisions. So, so okay, somebody going through mediation, if they want to get support from an attorney, the the term that I've heard is a limited scope engagement. So you don't have to necessarily have like full representation and have that attorney sit in mediation with you or really take an active role. So can you talk about the different ways that a attorneys work. Laura: Sure. So f so the the traditional route would have been you hired an attorney, they file your divorce case, they serve the other side, we engage in like discovery or other things, exchanges of information, and and do all of these steps. You just start on this path. There are many other ways you can approach divorce. And there's not a one size fits all, there's a lot of opportunities out there. So one of them is with a limited scope. For example, so I I do offer limited scopes. It is on a case-by-case basis because it it does have to be appropriate for the person's situation. Some people can't afford a full-blown attorney. And so sometimes I'll say, yes, I can ghostwrite things for you, for example. or I can just give you advice as needed. Call me when you need it, and we will talk things out. So, you know, it can be what you want it to be. And so likewise, somebody could say they want to do mediation, hire an attorney for at this stage, all you're gonna, I don't need you to go with me to the mediation. I just want to be able to talk to you during the mediation. You can also hire the attorney to go with you to the mediation because some people might feel more comfortable with that. but then there are also situations where you can hire an attorney to only go into court for like a particular hearing. If the court had a hearing like say on child support, you could hire an attorney to say, I'm only going to represent you on child support. And go in when once child support is done, then that attorney is no longer required to stay in the case. So there are different ways to do limited scope agreements. And I'm a big advocate because the price of attorneys, I always tell people I would never want to spend the kind of money that my clients have to pay me. I'm too financially prudent to want to part with my money like that. So I understand. and so I certainly admire people who wanna go different directions. Yeah. Brooke: So how would somebody determine if a limited scope engagement is a is a possible fit for them? Laura: I mean, some of it would depend on kind of a general view of why you're doing it and what the issues are. There are certainly some types of situations that are just complicated and it would be too hard for me as an attorney to come in for a narrow purpose because in these divorce cases, oftentimes things are very interrelated. And so, you know, like I I had somebody who recently approached me about doing a limited scope, you know, to do something very particular and and it was just to have a conversation to give him advice on doing something for the court case that was ongoing. And I said, for me to give you advice, I would have to review all of the court record, and it had been an ongoing case, and I would need to see all of the evidence you have, because I can't give you any good advice without having done that. Brooke: Yeah. Laura: And so, you know, that just people might want one thing, but I also have to be careful that it's going to be worthwhile, well, I I want to be careful that it's going to be worthwhile to them. Yeah. on the other hand, yes, so some people who really just cannot afford an attorney at all, it might be worthwhile to just have somebody you can go and ask questions. You could say, Well, the judge said I needed to have him serve, but I don't know how to do it. I can give you step by step directions on something like that. So that that could also be a situation where you could be more limited. Brooke: Yeah. So do you have any idea of how many attorneys out there are open to limited scope eng engagements? Is it a fairly common thing or Laura: It's becoming more common. I don't really have a sense of how many do it. I certainly know plenty of attorneys who say, nope, never gonna do it. Yeah. because they're just worried about like being on the hook for something bigger, or having people oftentimes aren't really clear with that limited scope. And then when it ends, it's a loss for them, right? Not having the attorney anymore. there's also just the reality that in divorce. law in Illinois, if say a client doesn't pay you, you can go to the divorce court about making sure your bill gets paid. If it's a limited scope and you're not actually part of the court case, then you don't have as easy of a collection route from your client. So I do sometimes wonder if that's some of people's attorneys' hesitancy there. Brooke: Gotcha. Okay. okay, so let's talk about billable hours because that is like the thing that I think people are concerned about, right? Because as you mentioned, it's not cheap. So so what do people need to understand about how attorneys bill their hours and how things might snowball without them really understanding? Laura: Some of the top things people I think don't really understand is lawyers are paid for their time, which means any time that I'm working on your case, I need to be paid for my time. So if you're calling me and not really focused and the conversation takes an hour, maybe a different person could have done that conversation in 15 minutes. You're paying me an hour. Somebody else might pay me a quarter of an hour. It's So it's just my time. the other part is like I think sometimes we live in a world where people just communicate so much. I send you an email, you say thank you. That's very nice of you. I have to now file that email. And then sometimes people think like, well, I'm gonna text her instead. I gotta put all those texts in my file. It's a lot harder for me to file my text than my emails. But every time you email me, it's a charge for you. I have an integrated system that tracks all of that. so a good good friend of mine, before I ever became a divorce lawyer, was going through a divorce and got like a $4,000 bill, was absolutely appalled. And I looked it over and I was like, why are you emailing your attorney two times a day for a whole week? Well, I had questions. And I'm like, yep, start a draft email. Add to that when you get your questions. Maybe at the end of the week, send him one email with all your questions, and then schedule a time for him to answer them. Because the other part is. Is there's a big difference between does this need to be a verbal conversation or does this need to be a written conversation? And oftentimes things are faster verbally. So sometimes it's easier, you're gonna be more cost effective to have a verbal conversation. Sometimes it's so complicated though, I want it to be in writing, because then I always tell my clients, if you read what I sent you 10 times, you know, then you don't have to talk to me 10 times. That's and that's part of it. I know when things are complicated. I'm going to put it in writing because I I need you to have something to refer back to. And my clients who one of my one of my tricks I give my clients is before you ask me a question, read what I've sent you again. Because I can't tell you over the years how many times I have clients who email me, when is the next court date? I guarantee you I have already told them. And That was just a charge you incurred. Brooke: my gosh. So it really does add up quick in ways that people have absolutely no idea. Laura: Yes, yes. Brooke: So don't send a thank you email. Laura: No, since I work for myself now, I don't charge people for the thank you emails. But when I worked for other firms, there are firms that will charge you for any email. Email received is a charge, email back is a charge. whether or not that's reasonable, that's for judges to decide. I I personally don't charge for a lot of the courtesy communication as long as it's reasonable. But yeah. It it adds up quickly. And so when you have people who are emotionally stressed, because divorce is a very difficult event, people who want to talk to their lawyers, that talking is all going to cost. And I understand you might like me, I might be easy to talk to. But sometimes I think it'd be great if I had like a little calculator that kind of scrolled and people could see what they were paying as they talked to me. there was a T V show on Netflix about like a few years ago made. It was adorable, but throughout it it was a single mom and on different occur occasions it would just have a calculator running on the screen. And that's when I thought, boy, if if my clients had that, they'd start to realize where they were spending their money. Brooke: Yeah, it so a story from from my world, I have had clients who show me drafts of emails that they are going to send to their attorney. And I'm 10 minutes in and it's all emotion. It's all about, and I'm so grateful that you're doing this with me. I mean, he's such a you know a jerk and and I'm just like at my wits' end, and you know, this this week he did this and that week he did this, and There's no question after 10 minutes and I had to stop and say, How much is your attorney per hour? And how and like what is the breakdown? Do they charge for every eight minutes or every 12 minutes? Or like what is the breakdown? Because I think you probably just spent about a hundred dollars before even getting to any questions. Like what was it that you were trying to convey in the first 10 minutes? And like, is it worth it? Laura: Right. We have to read it all because some people hide questions and key facts in with all of their emotions. And so I have to read it so much more carefully when the nuggets are hidden in a lot of words. So it's actually like it does make my job a lot harder, but that is how most people communicate. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's getting them to really think about, okay, is it worth it to you to tell them all these stories? Or do you just want to stick to the facts, stick to the hard questions to get your answers? Like, do they really need to know all of Laura: Stuff. Brooke: Right. And so I guess that question to you is do you really need to know all of the stories? Like I'm sure there are some things that you might need to know for legal reasons, but when you think back about the clients that you've worked with, can you guesstimate like what percentage of the stories that they've told you were really necessary? Laura: Ooh, I would have no guess on that. you know, and it's interesting because one question I always ask clients when I'm starting out is to give me a little context as to what caused the breakdown of the marriage. And I do explain to people, this is not relevant to your case, but it helps me understand where you're both at and what the situation is. Cause it you know, as one mentor I had early in my career. We were talking about discovery, the process, the legal investigation process where you exchange a lot of documents, you have to answer questions under oath. And I was asking this senior attorney, you know, to to what degree we should do discovery, or what should I tell my client about whether or not we need to do it. And she just looked at me and said, Was there an infidelity? And I was so confused because under the law, that just doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. And I and I said, I don't, I don't think so. She's like, You need to know. Well, why? She's like, Because when there's been infidelity, there's already been lying between the two of them. And so does your client want to trust that the other person is giving them accurate financial information when there's already been lying as part of the relationship? And I thought that's that is very interesting because she's right. In fidelity, no, generally the law does not care if you've done that, if you've stepped out on your spouse, but it does say something about the lack of transparency between the two people. Brooke: Yeah. And that brings up a thought to me too, because some people think that whatever bad thing their spouse did is going to play a big role in the outcome of the divorce. Laura: Yes. Brooke: And most times, unless it is like serious abuse or, you know, things like that, it really doesn't matter. Laura: It doesn't. I mean, not in my experience. Maybe in other parts of the country it's different, but no. I mean Like taking the infidelity, for example, the law, we don't care if one person slept with a hundred people. We might care if you end up giving your spouse an STD. That might have a legal consequence for you. And we also care if that person was spending a lot of money on all those people, because that would be spending marital funds for definitely a non marital purpose. that does not benefit the family in any way. So that would be the real issue that's there. And then all we'd have to do is figure out how much money was spent inappropriately. And the other person would essentially most of the time be entitled to about 50% of that. Cause if somebody say spends $1,000 on a trip for a significant other, well, if you're doing a 50-50 split, then the future each ex gets $500 of that. That makes sense. Yeah. Brooke: Yeah, it does make sense. so let's take that to kids then, because you also have moms. I work with moms primarily, who did most of the child rearing, right? And they were at all of the parent-teacher conference meetings and the teacher meetings and the sporting games, and they were very present in raising their kids. And when they go through a divorce, They think that that entitles them to more time with the kids. Not all of them do. Some of them genuinely want to split time 50-50. But there are others that, while he wasn't present, he didn't do any parenting, you know, he wasn't involved, the kids were with me. I feel like I deserve to have more time. So how how does that, if it even does, play into? Laura: So officially what the statute says is that w so when it comes to parenting, there are two big issues. One is decision making, which is we used to call it like legal custody. Now we call it in Illinois, responsibility for significant decisions. And in the other aspect is parenting time. So like in your example, you're saying the parent who basically took responsibility for all the decisions. Then thinks they get more time. They're separate. So for decision making, we're supposed to look at what happened over the last couple of years. How were decision made how were decisions made? Who was involved? And generally that would be persuasive. In my experience, it's much more about can the two people make decisions together? Because just because it's kind of like if if you don't have kids, it might be, you know, your skill is gardening and yard work, and my skill is the basement. And you might never set foot in the basement, right? So we divide, we divide and conquer. And that's oftentimes when you're married how people look at kids. You're taking care of going to all those conferences and doctor's appointments and everything else. I might be coaching little league or doing something else. It doesn't mean that we can't make decisions together. So It is usually that decisions will be made together. And then with parenting time, it's really about what is best for the kids, what are they used to, what are the circumstances going to be. So if one person stays in the home where the kids have grown up and there's a lot of stability there, maybe. But if the other parent lives in the like 15, 20 minutes away, there's no reason that kids can't adapt to having spent plenty of time with both parents. Brooke: Yeah. And I I've seen a lot of women actually fight tooth and nail for full custody and spend tens of thousands of dollars fighting for full custody or maybe even like an 80-20 situation when their other spouse since the separation has really stepped up. So maybe they weren't as involved, they're stepping up, they're starting to do things. and I have to Say to them how much money, how much more money are you willing to spend to fight for something that you're likely not going to get? Because in Illinois, isn't it like a judge will want 50 50 unless there's other Laura: It's it's not. There's been efforts for quite a few years now to put into place like a presumption that it would be fifty-fifty on the time, unless somebody proves otherwise. And that always loses. There's a lot of people, especially in in Chicago, because that's where I know more people, who are very against any kind of presumption of fifty-fifty time versus I started off my legal career in Nebraska, they didn't have a presumption. But most cases I had ended up with 50-50 time. People there just were able to get along. And it wasn't there wasn't, you know, the traffic and the logistic issues sometimes that we have here. but no, part of part of what I, you know, always explained to people is the judge when it comes to parenting time and figuring out that schedule, the judge doesn't care about you, the adults. The judge cares only about the child and what's best for that child. And what generally is, as far as we know currently from the mental health experts who help educate me, is what's best for that child is to have consistency and predictability with the parents, both of them. So, you know, that that doesn't mean that one person gets marginalized. it it means that sometimes what's best is that. We try and make sure the kids spend as much time as possible with both. Because those kids are made up of just as much of mom as they are of dad, or maybe it's two moms and two dads. They're just as much of a product of the family that was created. Brooke: Yeah. Well, so that's really interesting because I I th you know, the information that I had was that generally speaking, as long as both parents are healthy and don't have any drug issues or abuse issues or whatever, that the court might see that and I I suppose it you know if somebody's living two hours away, obviously that's different. or Two hours in Chicago could be 20 miles. But but generally like it would be hard for them to take away parenting time from someone like if there wasn't a a good reason for Laura: Yes. I yes. It is very hard to actually eliminate a parent from a child's life. And in fact, it it just Usually if there has been a horrible situation, then instead it's what do we do to try and resolve it to help the kids move forward and that type of thing. It's very hard to actually make sure somebody has nothing. That's just not gonna happen. Brooke: Yeah. So can you talk through maybe some of those instances that would be just cause to have, you know, an unequal division of time. So and I'm gonna give you an example really quickly. I've had clients say to me, he doesn't do anything, he's not involved. When he feeds my child, they have you know, grilled cheese sandwiches. They he doesn't give her any vegetables. He doesn't, you know, like they're so different in their parenting styles. And one feels like, I'm doing all the things and playing. And he just sets her in front of the TV and gives her Trisket crackers. You know, that isn't really something that would play in the court. Laura: No, because so one of the best, I remember one time reading an opinion by a judge from a case I was involved in. And what the judge said was, you know, mom has some good skills. She does crafts with the kids, does art, takes them to the library, does all these things. Dad gets outside with them, takes them on hikes, takes them to parks, much more active. Both great qualities. There's no One is better, one is worse. And you know, that was hard for I think both parents to read because they really felt like their values were more important than the other ones, which explains why they did the things that they wanted to do. And that's where you know you get families like that too, where education is the number one value or sports is the number one value. Maybe it's both. But that's we're splitting hairs, everything is good for kids. The other part is, you know, supposedly there's a lot out there that if you don't have a par particular parent in your life, you are mo more prone to mental illness, more prone to suicide, more prone to dropping out, more prone to becoming a criminal. Those seem like really bad things. so we'd rather see kids be exposed to both and have that so that nobody feels abandoned, nobody feels like somebody doesn't love them. And yes, triskets are a whole grain, they're okay. Brooke: So then okay, so then original question was what are some things that might be just cause for an unequal? Laura: I mean, so a lot of t so for example, I mean, work schedules. If I have a work schedule where I leave my house at seven and the kids don't go to school till eight thirty or nine, and I don't come home until seven, and the kids need to be in bed by eight, it's gonna be hard for me to have weekday parenting time if that's my schedule, seven to seven. And that is something I see, and it's most oftentimes dads, but sometimes there's moms who are breadwinners too, who are working the long hours. And they don't want to have the other parent have all the time because again, they're looking at it winning and losing between mom and dad, or between the two parents, instead of, but your lifestyle actually like you are the primary financial provider. Everybody needs you to keep this job and keep working these hours. And So maybe what's best for the kid is one night a week you take off a little early and you take them out for dinner. So some of it is it's also just the logistics and the lifestyle of the parties. that can be a big situation. Sometimes it is in Chicago, it feels very much so. And it does vary based upon how young your kids are. But if you're gonna be driving, if mom and dad live more than 30 minutes away, it just can present a lot of logistical issues. in my experience, courts in Cook County are very reluctant to have kids spend a lot of time in the car for parenting time. Now I've read articles by psychologists who talk about how time in cars with kids is one of the times when they're not watching TV, they're not playing video games, and you can actually have a conversation with them. And I've had those experiences too, like, yeah, let's go to Target, because I know you love Target and you'll talk to me for that 20 minute drive. Brooke: Right. You can't take the iPod or the iPad in the car. Laura: Right. So there are some benefits, but that's just what I've seen here. So some of it is when you get divorced, you might have one great house, but then if you want to keep the kids in the house, somebody else might end up living in like a closet. And so that would also be a situation where maybe it would be a little bit different. There's there's a lot of different scenarios where one person might be the primary. Yeah, so it just it's it is really case by case, tell me about the different situations and tell you what I think a judge might do. And then the other part is there's forty two judges in Cook County. They all do things differently. Brooke: What's one of the most common mistakes that you see clients make? Laura: There are quite a few. I think one of the big ones that always surprises me, and this is everybody does this, people decide they're going to get divorced. They tell the other person, we're going to get divorced. I want a divorce or whatever they say. They have no idea what divorce is. And I wish people would consult with an attorney so that they could have an education before they make that decision. I will tell you, I've had people consult with me and then decide. So I do want to do some therapy with my spouse. And I there there are definitely some reasons why I want to make this work. And I say, if that's how you want to interpret what I've said, that great. Good for you. but I have also had people who get into the process and can't really believe. What the law says, or how complicated it is to figure out. You know, they thought, well, I'm done. Flip a switch. Let's be done. It does not work that fast. I wish just because you were emotionally done that you could be legally done, but it's a lot more complicated than that. So that's that's one of the the biggest mistakes I see. And then the the other, it's more of a judgment call. but Some people are doers, right? Like you see a problem, I'm gonna do something about it. And that is great in almost every aspect of your life. It's gonna make you successful at work, at school, at so many things. You're a doer, you get things done. The legal system does not work that fast or that well. So doers wanna do a lot of things, and then they're surprised that the results might take a year. And so they just want to keep doing. And that just means very high legal bills. So that I view as a mistake, because again, I'm financially prudent personally. I just put my little patient's hat on and see if we could, you know, wait it out. But yes, people, people are really in a hurry when they see wrongs, ha things that they view as wrongs. They want to correct wrongs. And when you're when you have to go to the court system for help. you lose your autonomy. And that then just is a real struggle. Brooke: Yeah. So based on what you said there, how it can get very, very expensive, especially when you want to be a doer. Have you had to have conversations with your clients about, well, we can do that, but it's gonna cost a lot of money and you might not get that. Laura: Sure. Yes. I am definitely known for saying to clients, the only people who will benefit are the lawyers. Because I want to make very clear, because part of why I work for myself, is that if it's like a really long shot to almost no shot, I am going to tell them ahead of time. And sometimes I even put that in writing too. And I I can think of a case probably like quite a few years ago now. where I suggested that we do nothing that people wanted to do, like the client needed to do some things. And then later were very hostile towards me because they said this has all just been a waste of time. And we never should have done this. And how dare you let us let let me do this? I found the email from seven months prior where I recommended that we not do anything and explained it all. And I resent it to them. And I felt bad 'cause that is a real expensive and difficult lesson to learn. Brooke: Yeah. But that's a very important lesson is that at the end of the day, the client is in the driver's seat and they are making the decision. You are giving them counsel, right? But if they want to do something good or bad, I mean, an attorney, what are they gonna say? Nope, we're not doing it. I forbid it. We're, you know. Laura: Right. It's not my job to coerce my clients into doing anything. It's just my job to give them informed advice so they can make intelligent decisions. And if they choose to ignore it, that is also their choice. And I will probably go along with it unless it's gonna affect me. Brooke: Yeah. But I I I would bet that there are some attorneys out there and that might not give them the heads up that this is only gonna buy me that boat that I've been eyeing, right? Like they'll be very happy to say, yeah, sure we can go after that. Of course we can. Laura: yeah. And we talk about those things. Like I can think of one in particular who's like, you know, I used to when I was younger really try and explain and direct clients out of things. Now I just tell them if they don't want to listen, this is how I'm putting my kids through college. And I certainly understand that. And then I've also encountered those the other kind is people who, you know, will tell people like, yeah, we can go for it. Or, you know, you could get this. And people take we can go for it. You could get this as if it's a guarantee that you will. There are very few actual guarantees. and so yeah, yeah. That can be an expensive lesson for people to learn as well. Brooke: So if you want to avoid that and say you have engaged and have engaged an attorney who is like, yeah, we can do this, right? Because they want to be a pleaser. They want, you know, they want them to feel like they're supportive or whatever their reasoning is. How, like, what are some questions that a client should be asking their attorney to gauge whether or not this is. really something that they should be going after. Laura: I mean, I think asking how realistic is it that that I'll be successful on whatever issue might be there? and then, you know, what are the facts that support my side versus the other side? because you do need to be aware when you're making decisions. Yeah, I s I know why I think this is right, but then what's what's the other side's argument too? Cause there's always a counter argument. So yeah, that's something I do with my clients where I'll say, like, yes, if I'm the other person's lawyer, I'm probably gonna be telling them and then I'll lay it out exactly because we've all been on both sides of the arguments once you've been doing this for a while. And yeah, so like there are some things where it's pretty clear as to how it might play out. And then there are other things where it's really hard to predict. And those are the ones where we usually do have to go forward and have the court really be become more actively involved. Brooke: Yeah. But it's just like the the lesson is to ask questions and get curious of like how viable is this? and what is the best case and the worst case scenario just to be able to gauge if it makes sense financially for people to go through this. Laura: Right. And it's really hard to estimate the cost too. So people are constantly asking me, you know, what what what will it cost to pursue this? And, you know, sometimes it's like, well, it depends on the other side, it depends on the other attorney, it depends on the court's schedule. Is anybody on vacation? Are you asking for this to happen before the end of the year during holiday season? That's tough ask. It you know, there's so many different variables, but Yeah, looking at it from a best case scenario, like what's the best case? What's the worst case? Right. Is it worth it? I mean, because I've had clients who literally have spent like $35,000 to get $35,000. Brooke: Right. Laura: And that's part of what I, you know, now I work for myself. I have those conversations ahead of time. You see that $35,000, it looks amazing to you now. But if they don't cooperate, if the other side doesn't cooperate with us getting you your share, gonna cost you a lot of money to make sure we get that. Brooke: Yeah. Having that understanding of what is the best case, what's the worst case, and what am I really fighting about? Am I f is it going to cost me five thousand dollars to fight over an eighty dollar air fryer from Costco? Laura: yeah. Brooke: You know, like really sitting down, but also, you know, if you are fighting over a pension. Do you really want to be like spending a ton of money? Because what has that done to you emotionally? And it's draining and it's stressful. And so sometimes, you know, winning doesn't necessarily have to be winning. Laura: no, and that that scenario you just described reminds me of a time where I had a case and my client was the wife and she had a disability, but she took care c good care of herself. Sorry about that. And her future ex had a big drinking problem. Big drinking problem. But he had the pension. And part of the challenge with a pension is that generally speaking, When the person who has the pension dies, the other person gets nothing. And that was part of our discussion and her analysis of he really didn't want to give her any portion of the pension. She also really didn't think he was gonna live very long. And so for her, it was: do we really keep fighting for this pension or going for this? When it might end up being worth nothing if he does die. And he had been hospitalized for his drinking like multiple times. A lot of problems. And she said, I would rather just keep mine, my retirement for me, because that'll that's more likely to be worth something. Brooke: Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about emotions and how they play into the cost Laura Inns: Okay. Brooke: of divorce. one thing that comes to mind is there's someone, a client who when they got they they ended up having to go to trial. In the pretrial, I think the attorney said, if I were to make a decision now, this is how it would happen. And it wasn't gonna benefit one party. And that party was the one that wanted to keep going and keep fighting, even though the judge said if I made my decision now. This is not going to benefit you. And because the emotions were so high, and probably the fear and all of this stuff, they wanted to keep fighting. And what happened? Exactly what the judge said. After they spent more time, both parties had to spend more money on their attorneys and all this. So it was really this one person that was just fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting, you know, and my poor client. had there's nothing that they could do. Nothing they could do. Laura Inns: There is nothing right. You don't get compensated for the fact that the other person doesn't want to be reasonable. They have every right, and that is something clients have such a hard time with, is there's no law that says everybody has to be reasonable here. And in fact, as far as the law is concerned, they can be very unreasonable. We have a whole system and it's called going to trial. Yeah. And you have to pay for it. Even though everybody involved knows why has this gotten so expensive and out of hand. yeah, and there are there are circumstances when you can have the other side contribute to attorneys fees, but when you're married, you're pulling out of the same pot. Yeah. So yeah, you can say that you might get a little more, and that could be part of what a judge does, but no, the emotions are Really difficult. And a lot of people don't know the difference between an emotional need and a legal need or an emotional emergency. I mean, I think back to a client who, you know, like this is one client sends you an email. I need to talk to you ASAP, because I didn't answer my phone. Doesn't tell me what it's about or anything. If that client had told me, if she had said, I just found out. And and it was a situation where they owned a business together that a certain tax was never paid. I would have said, sorry to hear that. We'll add it to the list of things for your case. There was no actual emergency. It was just she learned new information that was emotionally stressful for her, which makes sense, right? I suddenly found out there's another debt I didn't know about. My financial picture just keeps getting worse. That is a miserable place to be in. Your lawyer can't fix that. It'll just be part of the big case. It didn't warrant like a phone call that day. It didn't warrant any kind of special attention. But you know, people will pay for it because they are in an emotionally fragile place. Brooke: Yeah, and emotional regulation is just so important in divorce because it really does impact your future from a financial perspective. there are a lot of people that I see just in what I do that have a really hard time regulating their emotions. And some of them have had their attorneys on speed dial because every little thing, text exchange. you know, handoff that goes sour, whatever, they feel like it is critical to their case that their attorney know this because this is just yet another reason why they deserve what they want. Laura Inns: Mm-hmm. Brooke: And, you know, it's critical. So so I mean that just drives up the bill. Laura Inns: It does. It does. And I understand it because we're also in an era where everybody gets and is used to getting answers immediately. And so not having an answer creates so much stress and anxiety for people. Right. And that's that's why I always encourage my clients, have a therapist, have a divorce coach. And they're different, right? Like therapists are for emotional processing and they can teach you all kinds of therapeutic tools. They Do great things on adjusting and grieving. Divorced coaches, you know a lot more about the system and the issues and the questions to ask specifically, right? Therapists are much more about what do you need based upon your feelings. Well, divorce coaches can get you to be a lot more realistic and practical and help hone that. but yes, so when I work with people, or sometimes I'll have a client for a while, and then I'll communicate with them less and when I ask them. It's always hilarious to me how they have started working with a therapist. They spend a lot less on their legal fees once they're working more actively with other professionals. Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. I I could not agree more. It is one of those things where, you know, when when somebody comes to me, I that's one of the first questions. Do you have a therapist? Because there is a lot of processing that needs to happen. And I've heard too many podcasts where attorneys are joking about being the most expensive therapist that their clients will ever have. Laura Inns: yeah, I I tell my clients openly, I know a lot about therapeutic tools. I'll share what I know. But number one, I I am a lot more expensive than almost every therapist I've ever seen. Their bill for it. I don't take insurance. So, right, the chances are you could get insurance coverage. And in today's era, it's much easier to get mental health insurance coverage. But the other part is like, I might mess you up. You're coming to me for your emotional needs. I might give you my lawyer view and what you really needed was emotional support or other coping mechanisms. Like, don't use me for your emotional needs. I don't want to be responsible for your mental health. And I would rather you have somebody who actually is more trained in that. Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. It's it's kind of like, you know, there is this mentality that all you need is a divorce attorney to get you through divorce, unless you're doing like mediation or whatever. But it really is a team of people that can support you the best and help you use whatever budget that you have dedicated to your divorce more effectively. Laura Inns: Yeah, that's how I would look at it. Brooke: Yeah, yeah. So so you brought up divorce coaching. I just have to ask you, what are the benefits from, you know, if you could just exp explain a little bit more about the benefits that you see divorce coaches have just in assisting attorneys in the divorce space? Laura Inns: Yeah, so I mean, and some of this is because as a solo attorney, I have plenty of work to do and it's hard to keep up with everything. And so just like if I do have a meeting with a client, I prefer to schedule these things. Why? So we can both be prepared and be more efficient with our time. And I usually start off a call setting an agenda, confirming it with my client, and then we go through it. If my clients I would say that if a lot of them could work with a divorce coach ahead of time and prepare for those calls, they would spend far less time on the phone with me. Brooke: And thereby save Laura Inns: Saving a lot of legal fees, yes, because I'm also probably more expensive than your divorce coach. So and helping people just like you described earlier with somebody sending you a draft email to their attorney and it being, you know, like ten minutes of reading emotions. Well, if you had a coach that could redact all the stuff you didn't have to say, you'd get an answer a lot sooner too. So there's multiple reasons how that can benefit people. Brooke: Yeah. No, I think so too. And obviously that's why I got into this because I, you know, I I started a support group, and I started being more active online and just really listening to stories. And the one thing was that people, just everyday people, teachers and librarians and you know like you know, small business employees, things like that, they they're spending way more money than they can really afford. They're draining their retirement accounts. They're spending so much money because they just don't know. They're listening to friends and family who've right. Laura Inns: Yeah. Going back to one of your questions about big mistakes, some of that is. You listen to your friends and your family who don't know anything about the law. Brooke: Yeah. And they have their own, you know, judgments, opinions, like, you know, if they really hate your spouse, they could be like, You should go after them for everything. They don't deserve the kids. You know, you took care of the house. Like they can drive that. Laura Inns: That battle. Yeah. Yeah. That battle energy. And also make you feel like if you don't do these things, then something might be wrong with you. So yeah, it's that it's that energy from other people that sometimes people don't even realize, like, okay, but you're getting some not good advice. Right. And I I know that's hard. That's very hard, but Brooke: Yeah, and divorce, like you said earlier, is not a one size fits all. So the advice that your, you know, your sister got or your cousin or your coworker got for their divorce might not apply to your situation. Laura Inns: yeah, because it's very specific based upon where you live. I mean, even in the law is based upon states, but the way we apply the law in Cook County is gonna be different than McHenry County, is gonna be different than like a downstate county. So you c you know, even though it seems like, all right, well, my friend got divorced and it was in Will County and here's exactly how it went, that doesn't mean it's gonna work that way where you are. And that's also very confusing for people because people want to think like the law is like a speed limit sign. It says drive fifty five, you drive fifty five, right? It's very clear. It's just not. Brooke: Yeah. No. That and also like my question would be, well, how much did your friends spend on their divorce? And is there still a bunch of conflict and all of that stuff? Because if they spent $60 or $80,000 on their divorce and they're getting all their advice from that person, do you want to be spending $60 or $80,000? Like they might have made some mistakes along the way and didn't realize it. Right. So it's So that's really why I got into this, is just to save people money to get them educated and more informed and to be able to support you so that you have more what I call credible clients, the clients who've done their homework, done their research, have the list of questions and are more emotionally regulated to interact with you so that you don't have to do all these other things that aren't really. what you went to school for and what your specialty is. Right. Right. Laura Inns: Right, yes, 'cause they don't teach you anything about emotional coaching in law school or any real type I mean, they might teach you a little bit about client management, but it's certainly not in the context of divorce. Brooke: So I'd really like to talk about high conflict people because that is something that I'm seeing a lot in my support group and the the clients that are reaching out to me. Everyone is married to a narcissist. Most people are married to a narcissist or someone high conflict. So if you are in that situation, what are some things that you can do? to minimize the cost, especially if you're someone that, you know, understands the value of keeping as much money in the bank as possible for your future chapter, right? Your next chapter. What are some things you can do? So the Laura Inns: First tip I give all of my clients once we're there, or sometimes even in consultations, I tell people this. Once I know we're in a high conflict situation, I recommend a book that you can get on Amazon. It's called Biff. It stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm. It's by Bill Eddy. I can't remember what where he's a professor out of, but I've heard him speak before. Yeah. but it does give a roadmap for how to communicate. And I think it also helps kind of readjust people's expectations. But in general, also like some of it is it's the constant engagement that people engage in. And today's text messaging, things like that is when you're in high conflict, there's never a reason to respond within a few hours. In fact, it should be forbidden. Because that's part of what like your drama seekers want, or when there's been a pattern of, my spouse texted me, let me get on my phone and text right back. Why? Brooke: Yeah. And that's the difference between responding and reacting, right? And so I like to think of it when you're in elementary school and there is like you know the the fireman comes in and says if you catch on fire you stop drop and roll. I kind of say if you get a nasty text from your ex, stop, drop your phone. And like recenter yourself, do some meditation, whatever you've got to do, and then like roll with it in terms of you accept who that person is, you accept how they are, and then how do you form a response? And sometimes no response is a response. Laura Inns: Yes, not every message needs to be responded to. It's also though, so somebody once said to me, feelings are fleeting. If it lasts for more than 90 seconds, it's not a feeling, it's a story. And so if you're in emotions, I got a text, I'm feeling all the things. My advice to my clients is usually do not as do not respond when you're in emotion. Wait, let your brain process, let your brain calm down. And if you can't get out of that emotion, also, and this is where I wish people worked with therapists, because there's probably a story in your head. It's probably tied to some value that you feel like your future ex is always trampling on. I don't know what it is, but that's where when the escalation, it's like, this was an emotionally triggering message. And sometimes, you know, if you're if you're support group people are saying there's all narcissists. They're needy. They need that attention. So your high conflict people just want that drama, want that feedback, and they know how to poke at you because they know you better than anybody else. They're gonna poke. And what they want is for you to come back and then they're gonna go instead of wait, let's actually be formulaic. Let's try and think about what the issue is and send a message that addresses all 10 points. And it might take me a couple days to write it. But let's actually be thoughtful and not not continue to do the back and forth communication that is just constantly interrupting your life. Brooke: And especially if you are to that level where you are using something like talking parents or some kind of a communication app where you've made an agreement that you have to respond in a certain time about a child, you know, whatever child-related thing is, then you know, okay, in my agreement it says I have 48 hours to respond. That means that you can take 48 hours to regulate yourself. And prepare a response. And I know a lot of the moms I work with say, well, it's just so not fair that I always have to be the bigger person. Like they can shovel all this dirt my way and be nasty and all this stuff. And that I am the one that always has to rein it in and calm down and be the bigger person and be nice about it. And it's like, but what would your life be like if you were hurling? Laura Inns: The the other part is when you stop giving them positive rewards for their negative behavior, and I'm a big dog person, when you stop so the positive reward is I responded to you because all they're looking for is engagement. And the minute you give them the positive reward, they keep going. But in my experience, when people stop that pattern, they do, they don't get what they need from you anymore. I don't know where they go to get it. But it's not gonna be you as much. So if you really want it to be fair, which is a fictitious concept, then you you kinda gotta go back and retrain your future ex for this is the communication pattern. You're not gonna get that with me. Yeah. Brooke: It's setting boundaries, right? Like you, you know, if you're gonna talk to me, if you're gonna tell me I'm a horrible parent, I'm nasty, I'm ugly, whatever thing, you are telling them I am not going to respond to this, right? Like that is not, that doesn't have to do with the kids. It doesn't, there's no emergency, right? And I am not going to take that. And and so you're right, they're gonna, they're gonna find it some other way. And it might. I don't wanna say that it's just as easy as that because when you're dealing with a high cost Laura Inns: Like so hard. Brooke: it's it is. It's so, so hard. Laura Inns: It's so hard to retrain ourselves and also I think as part of that retraining, it's hard because some of that journey is recognizing how you did play into it, especially when it starts to work. Brooke: But it is worth the effort, right? It is. It's worth the effort. Laura Inns: It is, because it's it's obviously hurting the people like if people are going to a support group and struggling with this, you know, that that does mean unfortunately you did play into it a little bit. And so some of it is, yeah, it took two of you. I'm sorry, but there are there is a path to a better life if if you want to take it. Brooke: Yeah. And if your divorce is still ongoing, learning these skills can help, you know, reduce cost a little bit because it's conflict that's driving the cost. Yeah. Right. yeah. Laura Inns: Mm-hmm. When we have people who are like, we can't figure out who's paying the mortgage or we can't decide what preschool the child's gonna go to, and you get lawyers involved. Well, let's say in the preschool, you're gonna have a lawyer for each person and probably a lawyer for a kid, and you might need the court, and then the decision to of where to enroll the child in preschool might cost more than a year's worth of preschool by the time you're done. Brooke: Yeah. It's insane. It's really insane. one thing that I'm curious about is if people who are high conflict and really like the drama that could impact the type of attorney that they bring on. Maybe one that is, you know, really into litigation because, you know, it just kind of feeds you know, the need that they have to get everything because they are they're right and this and that. So what do you need to know about the choice of attorney and how that can impact the outcome of your divorce? Laura Inns: Yes, so l the type of attorney does have a big impact, right? Because we can't control what the other person does or the other attorney does. We can only control our own actions, which is very tough and frustrating. And so that's where, for example, I mean, there's a lot of people where they're gonna start off a case, they're gonna immediately want to let's let's look commonly on the on what is oftentimes the woman's perspective is need temporary child support. Need temporary maintenance. We're gonna file these motions right away. Here's another idea. We could reach out and try and resolve all of that before we do that work. and so it just if the other side is gonna take much more of the traditional route of my client has needs, we need to file motions, we need to get this thing going, we can't change that. That's just how it's gonna be. All we can do is say, well, let's try and negotiate this and see if we can resolve it reasonably. Brooke: Yeah. So it really does matter like the kind of an attorney that you engage with, like can play a big part in how expensive your divorce is and you know how I I don't know, like have you seen litigation focused attorneys amp up the conflict? Laura Inns: I think that, you know, sometimes maybe they don't dampen the conflict. Or also it could just be, you know, say, say for example, we're fighting over a particular asset and somebody might be saying it's part non-marital. but are we gonna go through experts and how are we gonna do that? And some people could like we could all be looking at the same spreadsheet of all the assets and everything, but because of that one non-marital part. Right. It could result in is this a fair split or is this really favoring one person? Is it a 50-50 or is this really favoring one person? Ultimately, it all depends on that asset. And so if you're not like in my mind, I'm gonna explain all that complexities to my client. So part of what I will do is I'll get on a Zoom with people, put a spreadsheet up, I'll say, look, what happens when we take this out or this? And so. Everything about why we're on different pages seems to be stemming from this particular problem. But if the other side is just saying no, like your offer was so unfair and our offer is fair. Well, I'm not gonna persuade them. I'm probab I'm just probably not gonna be that successful if kind of that's their black and white attitude. So we'll have to go forward. Brooke: So it could be something to get ahead of if you have some kind of decent relationship with your spouse to make sure both people understand that there are differences in attorneys in the way that they handle things. And it's just like, okay, if you want to settle this in mediation, going with an attorney that's more mediation focused or friendly. Laura Inns: Right. Or just look for an attorney who's also a certified mediator. Cause then chances are they're going to be more friendly towards mediation. It's still a gamble. You never know for sure. Some people become certified mediators and they never do it once. But you know. Yeah. So it just depends. Brooke: But if you're someone who thinks that they have to get a shark, they're basically looking to spend a lot of money because you know, like the the idea of the shark is the one that is filing all the motions and litigating and Laura Inns: Or just Yeah. I mean, I I think back to a consultation I had one time with somebody who flat out said wanted to keep basically all of his own retirement and assets because he was older, couldn't work anymore, and there was like a big age gap. But his thinking was he wasn't gonna make any more money and he was gonna need this because he had some problems. And I said, But what will she end up with? The answer to that was essentially nothing. And I just told him, like, I don't think you're being very realistic, but this is just a consultation. And I was not surprised at all when he did not hire me. Cause he was looking for somebody who was gonna say, Yeah, we're gonna go for keeping all your stuff and making sure she ends up with almost nothing. And I I'm always curious, did it work out like that for him? Brooke: Yeah. that makes me think too about like prenups and postnups. yes. Yeah. So a lot of people watching this probably may not have a prenup. What is an instance where you might want to consider a postnuptual agreement? Where would be the benefit of that? Laura Inns: So I would say if if you want to try and address issues in your marriage, that's where so post numbers there does have to be what the law calls consideration, but basically a reason for doing this. And it could be I'm inheriting a bunch of money or I'm starting a new business venture and I we just wanna make sure it's clear as to what's going to happen with these things. And so they ca and but I've also worked on a post numb where it turns out and they the couple had been married for eight years. They had a prenup. And one day it came out that the husband hated the prenup and w regretted ever signing it and thought it was completely unfair. and so my client who happened to be the wife was like, well then why don't we change it? And so we were able to figure out what would be fair. And I you know, I love those situations when it turns out it was just a it was a resentment that I mean, you feel bad. You were holding on to that for eight years, but it turns out she was open to your input the whole time. We've we addressed the concerns, came up with a different plan, and so beautiful post numb to help them stay married. Brooke: So is there ever an instance where someone who knows that divorce is forthcoming, and maybe they've even talked about it, that they would put a post snup in place? Laura Inns: Sure, and then that could become the basis for your settlement agreement. So that that is certainly like a potential game to be weary of is okay, some person might be thinking, I really am on a path to divorce and I wanna do this post numb. That's part of why there has to be a reason for it that you're trying to address. but yes, and that's where that's part of why the law says, you know. For it to be upheld, you really want both sides to have their own attorney so they can really have that advice on it. Brooke: So is there an instance where a judge would say, Nope, I'm not I'm I'm not allowing this post nup agreement? Laura Inns: Sure. Yes, ultimately it will be up to the the court to decide are we enforcing this or not. And that's part of where you might see some clauses and post numbs that do things like say if anybody contests it, they have to pay a million dollars or the other side's legal fees, whatever it might be to really try and make sure we're gonna both honor this. Brooke: Okay. Laura Inns: Yeah. That's interesting. But but like a lot of times, you know, financial reasons are a big, big reason for divorce. And you can resolve sometimes a lot of those financial reasons with a post numb. So if two people still care about each other and want to actually work and stay together, a post nump can be a beautiful tool to say, well, here's how we're gonna divide up our money. Or, you know, like I I had a situation where One person gambled and the other person didn't know about it and finally found out and had lost, like the gambler had lost a lot of money, which scared the heck out of the other person. So they just came up with a plan to basically protect the non-gambler's assets from the potential gam from the gambler. And the gambler did work on that problem. But that that was it, was they really did. care about each other and had a good life together and were very happy with their life. But that was just something where, you know, most of the time under the law, it says you got a problem with your spouse, the solution is you get a divorce. We're not going to get into all the problems. We don't care. Your only solution is you either stay together or you get divorced. But the post numb, especially for financial issues, does give you another path to a solution to help you stay married if that's what you want to do. Brooke: Okay. one really weird thing that that I recently heard of was a spouse say that these two people had d agreed to get divorced and the spouse wanted conditions. children were, you know, college age, right? So they're not in in in the picture in terms of like child support or parenting plans. But, you know, the w the the husband wanted assurances that the wife wasn't going to start dating and like wanted to put conditions on it. And I thought, I have never heard of such a thing that if you were getting a divorce, like you're you know, you can do what you want, right? Like have you ever heard of any condition? Laura Inns: Wait, so what was that? Yes, this is Like I'm wondering, was I not listening? Brooke: But in the divorce decree that the husband wanted conditions of you are you are not going to have X amount of partners, like wanted to control her essentially after the divorce and wanted to put things in there about how soon after the divorce she could start dating and all those things. Well that any Laura Inns: Never heard of anything like that. And that's kind of creepy. Brooke: It's like but you're getting a divorce. Like Laura Inns: Right. I mean, I've seen plenty of people reach agreements in mediation to do things like, I'm not going to introduce the children to a new partner unless the person approv like meets them first. And I'm not even a fan of that because it again, it gives your ex right. So if if your ex has to meet the person before the kids can get introduced, so what if the ex just doesn't meet them? Problem solve never gets to meet your kids either. Like it it's just really hard to actually make those provisions and it's a little archaic too with the whole idea of people do move on with the relationships in this era. Brooke: Yeah. Well, and that's I know women in my support group will be very upset with me if I don't ask you this question. And it kind of is related to that, which is about compliance. Because that is one of the things that a lot of women struggle with is spouses that are not complying with the parenting plan or with the shared expenses or things like that. to the point where, you know, they say, I wish I would have like change the wording in the parenting plan to make it ironclad. But even then it really doesn't matter. I mean, there's like you either choose to comply or you don't. And it can be very expensive to get them to comply. Laura Inns: I mean, so I generally start with this. Let's say the speed limit's fifty-five, right? If there's not traffic, how many people are driving fifty-five? And what does the law do about it? The law does nothing. On occasion, somebody might get a ticket, but it the odds of getting a ticket are very low. That's why everybody's driving faster. If you think people comply just because it's a rule. I don't understand because most people do not comply with all rules. So people tend to only want rules to be followed when it's convenient to them. And this is no no different. But the other part in that this kind of follows a format from the Bill Eddie Biff book, which is my format format for noncompliance is you state the problem, you state if there's a rule that comes from your judgment, you propose solutions. And why they are either best for the children or, you know, et cetera. And you give a deadline for compliance or feedback or whatever else, but you set, please let me know bye, give them a reasonable period so that you don't have to again, because going back to some people expect it to be, I wanna hear back from them today. Well, they might be busy. but give them like a one week deadline. And then on one week, you forward the same email and you say, I am following up on this. Please respond by the end of day tomorrow. And you just, and when it comes to things like contributing to expenses or child support, it's a running, you know, some of my clients they end up having to send these emails once a month with here's all the things I told you you needed to contribute to. Let's say we have a few kids, there's gonna be a lot of random stuff. But you keep your paper trail going. Because that's your job. If you want something, you have to try and encourage the other person to comply. And then once you have enough that's owed to you, you do go back to court. Brooke: Yeah. And so is there kind of some guideline as to when or how much the bill has to accumulate to for it to be worth it? And because I think that that's why a lot of women that I see, you know, they're sitting on five, six thousand dollars in back pay and they're struggling financially, but they don't have the money to hire an attorney to go after Laura Inns: And I admit, like, because the the statute actually says when it's noncompliant and it's willful, and that's part of what you're doing with those emails, is trying to get the other person to comply to get them to the table to explain to you why they're not complying so that when you go to court, you can say, listen, I I did my job. I tried. but part of the statute does say that the court, if the court says that the person's in contempt, because it was intentional, then, and the law's a little more complicated than that. Then the court has to order that person to pay your attorney's fees. I've had that happen, I've proven that, and I've still had the court not order the attorney's fees. Right? You don't want to spend all the money it would take to appeal it. And so that's that's also the hard part. Brooke: Yeah, because then you could find yourself in a situation of paying six thousand dollars to get six thousand dollars or worse, right? Paying more than that. So it's you know, that kind of goes back to the importance of trying to come to an agreement together because people are more likely to follow agreements that they have had a hand in creating versus a judge saying this is what you have to do. Laura Inns: Exactly. And some people know. Like I've had clients who just say, The other person's never gonna pay these things. It's always going to be a chase. And then I say, Well, if that's really your view, another option might be, do you wanna negotiate and see if we can negotiate to get you more in child support each time? And then he doesn't have to pay for those things or she. And you know, sometimes we can get that to work out and that ends up Having everybody feel better too, because let's face it, I don't want to be a nag. And that's part of the problem. People really struggle with I'm nagging, but I'm not getting results. Instead of saying, I'm following up because it's my job as a co-parent to help them, they see it as a why is it my job to parent my co-parent? But then I have to say jokingly, but it's my job to parent all the parents too. Brooke: I know. And did you really think it would be that different after you got divorced, right? If you had to parent them when you were married, you probably still have to parent them when you're divorced. Laura Inns: Yeah, 'cause I mean, I've know plenty of women where they are working, they are the household organizer, they're responsible for all the things, and that's some of why they want the divorce too, right? They feel like they've been carrying the other person. The thing is, if you've got children, you're not gonna stop carrying the other person. Brooke: Yeah. So if you are concerned that your spouse isn't going to be complying, even if it's child support, right? That they are, you know, they've said com or made comments that they're just not going to pay. Is there anything you can do to be proactive about that to not get into the situation later? Laura Inns: Not really with child support, because it's just you know, I mean the law really is gonna make it hard for you to say get a more of the marital estate, for example, in lieu of child support. That g plenty of judges might not approve of that. so it does get more complicated. But the good news is is that every time a missed child support payment happens, it accrues nine percent interest. And so, you know, I have had cases where you might wait until the kid turns eighteen and then you go back and you make a clear record of everything that's owed plus the interest. It adds up. Brooke: And are shared expenses part of that like Laura Inns: Can't it's not part of the interest. Well, okay, so that gets more complicated. Okay. Highly technical, you know, I know health insurance can accrue the interest. I'm not so sure if it's contribution to say activities and we don't know what they are, then it's too up in the air. Brooke: Okay. So if you if you are experiencing this and you don't want to spend all the money now just to turn around in another five years and do it again, if you can financially support yourself and your kids, keep the record. And then when the kids age out of child. Laura Inns: Keep the record and keep following up with the other person. Cause it is it is important for the courts to see that you tried to solve this yourself. So I always tell people, you need to follow up a bunch of times. And then when you hire a lawyer, your lawyer's gonna follow up a bunch of times. I'm not just gonna go straight to court. I'm gonna try and solve it too before going to court. Cause again, I'm strengthening your argument that your attorney's fees should be paid by the other side. Brooke: Yeah. So if they haven't paid in a while, don't just like forget about it and just say, they just keep owing me this money. Keep going, you know, keep making that record. Put it in record. Laura Inns: Yeah. I mean I have a foreign former client and I know that the child's father has not paid in five years and she sends him messages regularly. She knows he will never pay and at some point when things are kind of further along, yeah, we'll go in and we'll try and make it more worth her while. Brooke: Laura, this was amazing. This was great. Laura Inns: I had so much fun talking to you, bro. Thank you. Brooke: So thank you for answering so many questions. I know there are gonna be some people out there that are really gonna find some amazing nuggets of information. Laura Inns: I to keep it pretty simple, lay person speak. I really try and talk not too much like a lawyer. Brooke: no, you did. You did a great job and you were very real because I think sometimes people they don't want fluff. They want, you know, the real Laura Inns: Life. And that is what my clients will tell you. I tell the truth even when it's not what you want to hear. And sometimes I'm really strict and bossy. But that's what Brooke: Say it with a smile. Laura Inns: Yes, 'cause it if if you want your goals to be accomplished, then it's usually pretty smart to do what I recommend. Yeah. Brooke: Well, I appreciate your candor. I appreciate your, yeah, the whole personality and way which you handle it. I think anybody would be very lucky to have you on on their team. How can they reach out to you if they're interested in in working with you? Laura Inns: the best way is usually just to send me an email, which you can email me through my website, which is lbi dash law dot com, or my email is the same Laura at LBI dash law.com. Brooke: Thank you so much again. Laura Inns: Pleasure, Brooke.