Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / 210: Tara Malek | A New Law Firm Model for the New World of Work

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210: Tara Malek | A New Law Firm Model for the New World of Work · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:00
  Tara: Trying to take a really more holistic approach to what now is, I think, a new benchmark with some of the newer employees that are coming into the market. Times have changed. Expectations have changed about what work life balance looks like, what a healthy model is. And so we are constantly striving to listen and to learn from our employees and, you know, just look around us at what other companies and institutions are trying to do as well.
• 0:35
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers? Ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love.
• 1:05
  Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now here's Devina.
• 1:25
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• 2:58
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• 3:05
  Davina: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick. And today, I'm here with Tara Malek. Tara is an Idaho licensed attorney practicing in state and federal court in business and commercial litigation. She has experience in both civil and criminal law.
• 3:23
  And previously she worked as the, I hope I say this correctly, Kutay Nye County Deputy Prosecutor, a Special Assistant United States Attorney and an Assistant United States Attorney for the United States Attorney's Office in Boise, Idaho. She's now the Chief Litigator at Smith and Malek as well as a co owner. One of Tara's biggest career accomplishments is a reversal of a jury verdict in federal court that is now on appeal in the Ninth Circuit. Tara was born in England, but she grew up in Washington State in Arizona. She holds a BA in political science from the University of Arizona in Tucson.
• 4:01
  She moved to Idaho in 2008 to attend the University of Idaho College of Law, where she met her husband, Luke Malek. She graduated with her JD in 2011. In 2008, the Idaho Business Review named Tara among Idaho's Women of the Year honorees. In 2019, she was named among the publication's Leaders in Law. And in 2021, she was named as Top 30 Under 40 Winner by cootiniae.
• 4:28
  You're gonna have to tell me how to pronounce that. County young professionals. So we're really happy to have Tara here today in particular because she and her co owners at Smith and Malek have a really unique business model that you guys are going to wait to hear all about. So Tara, welcome. It's so good to have you here.
• 4:48
  Tara: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
• 4:50
  Davina: Good. So how do I pronounce the county name? Kootenai County. Okay. Yeah.
• 4:58
  I was just listening to a podcast about someone who broadcast from the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska. And so when I see nye, that's why I wanted to pronounce it that way. But I totally butchered that. But, anyway, thanks for being here. And the reason I wanted to have you on the show in particular other than to hear sort of how you guys have grown such a successful practice is to talk about your sort of unique business model and why you and your co owners feel that it is important.
• 5:31
  So why don't you start out by telling us kind of what is unique about the business model at Smith and Malek?
• 5:37
  Tara: Sure. So we got away from the traditional business model of law firms and we did away with this concept of partnership. So at our firm, we have owners and we have non owners. So as of right now, are only three owners and that's the founding owners. So Peter Smith and Luke Malek and then myself.
• 6:00
  And then we have our non owner attorneys. However, we treat our non owners like the traditional partners that we think of. We did away with this concept because really we didn't know what partnership meant. And the more we looked around at other firms when we were trying to start this one, we were going, well, there's all these different definitions. You could be an equity partner, you could be a non equity partner, you could be a partner who gets to pick the curtains, but you know, it doesn't mean anything for their pay scale.
• 6:29
  So we were like, this is too confusing. We're not doing this. And so we wanted to create a firm that really provided a space for people to feel included, for them to feel part of the team, for them to be rewarded for the hard work that they do right off the bat instead of having to wait for this like concept or idea of partnership sometime, you know, down the road.
• 6:55
  Davina: Okay. Interesting. So tell me what you think kind of are the biggest problems with this traditional partnership track model.
• 7:04
  Tara: Well, I mean, I think one of the biggest issues with it is we don't know what it means. There's no consistency as far as how that term is used. But the other problem I think is the effects that trying to strive for this concept of partner has and the pressures that places on especially women and parents. And so, you know, when I think of partner and I've worked at other firms, you know, you're putting in seven days a week, you're doing these crazy hours, you don't have any work life balance at all, competing against everybody else to elbow them out of the way to make partner. And I think that really does not create a healthy work environment for a number of different reasons.
• 7:51
  Number one, it increases internal competition within the firm amongst attorneys, which is not what you want. I mean, you want a firm that's healthy where people are pulling in the same direction for the good of the firm, but also for the good of the clients who they're serving. And the other thing that it does is it burns out attorneys more quickly. And so we decided, you know, we're not doing that. If one of the biggest perks of, in theory anyways, a partnership is compensation.
• 8:23
  If it's profit share, then why don't we just talk about, you know, how much buy in as far as time is appropriate for someone who is at the firm to be at in order to profit share with the firm. So we have a probationary period and after the probationary period, they start profit sharing right away. They don't have to work seven days a week. They don't have to feel like there's these limited spots for partnership where they have to elbow other people out of the way. And I think it's really helped contribute to a more positive environment at our firm and certainly one that's more collaborative.
• 8:57
  Now we've taken some other steps as well. We've eliminated things like origination bonuses. So, you know, we don't have that competition amongst lawyers about, well, I brought it in. So I get the monetary bonus for it in these origination sites that that turn kind of nasty that you hear about. So we have kind of put those two pieces of the puzzle together, you know, made a target for our attorneys depending on what other responsibilities they have that's more reasonable.
• 9:26
  So far it's been working great.
• 9:28
  Davina: Great. Great. All right. So I have lots of questions. First, I want to say I've got an article here that you guys wrote or somebody interviewed you about this.
• 9:36
  And so I want to turn some of these doubts in here. This says, Women who are typically responsible, more responsible for household chores are not able to work these long hours while men, especially men without children, often can. That's why only 23% of equity partners in The US are women and a dismal nine percent are women of color. Importantly, this isn't for lack of interest from women to join the law profession. Women have accounted for at least 40% of law students in The US for decades, And in 2021, it was even more than half that.
• 10:11
  So we're really talking about trying to do something to rectify this kind of disparity in the workplace. The traditional law firm model is sort of merit based. The more hours you build, the more hours you work, the more highly you're rewarded. And what you're doing is saying, didn't wanna have that model because we wanna make it a more equitable workplace. What do you say to people who say, well, the flip side of that is incentivizing people.
• 10:42
  What if I'm in here working really hard and working hours to get cases done, but somebody else is always leaving early to go to their child's play or whatever, and yet they're equally sharing profits. What do you say to somebody like that?
• 10:57
  Tara: Well, I think that a couple of things. You know, if we have those, that's what makes those targets really important for each one of our attorneys. I mean, and we have an overall firm target that we want everyone to hit. And we're saying this is our team goal here for revenue and everyone has to pull in the right direction. Right?
• 11:16
  Everyone has to meet those goals. And so if someone wants to work more hours because they love it, they have the time, they would like to, this is, you know, their contribution and they're so passionate about it. Great. Wonderful. That's fantastic.
• 11:32
  We don't have that expectation for them to do that. But at the same time, we're not gonna punish the person or have a culture of shame, which is really what it is. For someone who has family obligations outside of work that they need to attend to. And so we make that very clear from the forefront and the beginning when someone is vetted to be hired at the firm. We want you to have a place here that's comfortable where you can meet your personal goals and be fulfilled, whatever that looks like for you.
• 12:04
  But we're not going to be the firm that allows anybody to shame somebody else for having outside obligations and the reality of having a family. And, you know, those periods of time where someone has young children who have to go to those things, who have the baseball game or the choir practice or whatever it is, it's such a short period of time in their lives too. And so their work life balance is going to change. And we want to be the place for those individuals to kind of grow with them as their family grows. So, you know, what that looks like in the beginning of their career is going to look different, you know, at the end of their career, in the middle of their career.
• 12:44
  And so, you know, I think when there's clarity at the very beginning of the relationship, as far as what we stand for and why we're doing what we're doing. We have less of those problems of someone coming in and saying, well, you know, they're not working as hard as me, even though that person may also be hitting their target and their hours.
• 13:05
  Davina: Right, right, right. Are your hours and targets, do they vary? They do.
• 13:10
  Tara: Within the firm, we have people who have different responsibilities. So for instance, we have practice area groups and each practice area group is led by a practice group lead. They have a different set of responsibilities. So our overall firm target is broken down by practice area group. And from there, those practice group leaders are responsible for making sure that their team is hitting their varied hours in order to meet that team goal, which then feeds into the overall goal.
• 13:42
  Those practice group leads are responsible for coming up with a strategic plan for their practice group section for allocating their budget appropriately for that practice group section, for engaging in activities that we call leading activities to bring in new business, so networking type activities. And so taking into consideration the value of kind of those intangible things that are not so straightforward as hours and revenue, we adjust their targets. So it's a reasonable target taking into consideration like how long is it going to take? You know, everyone knows if you have tried to create a book of business for yourself or for your team, it's really hard and time consuming. And so we want to make sure that, you know, we have a target and a goal that's reasonable for them that still allows them to do those things, right, to have that outside life.
• 14:34
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. So give me more information about the profit sharing model that you guys have. Talk to me about why that was important for you to introduce this profit sharing model.
• 14:46
  Tara: Well, we wanted to do a couple of things. We wanted to reinforce that culture of collaboration and teamwork and the profit share model theory behind that is should the team hit its goal? The only way that the whole team hits its goal is everyone is pulling in that same direction and they're really focused on that. So it reinforces the collaborative atmosphere that we're trying to create here. But also it's rewarding that positive behavior, that collaboration.
• 15:20
  And for profit share, it's not an entitlement. If the team hits its goals and someone has been unhelpful and consistently not hitting their goals and they're not doing the extra things, they're not networking, they're not bringing the business, there's no mentorship, for instance, then, you know, we're going to look and say, well, you know, the team hit its goals, but they didn't hit its goals because you are contributing and doing your part. And so it's used as a way to motivate, but it's also a way that we think is really fair. If people are working really hard, if the team is working really hard and so focused and arrowed in on what our targets and goals are, then it shouldn't just be a select few that are able to reap the benefits and have, you know, some sort of profit to share in. It should be the firm as a whole.
• 16:10
  Davina: I I just can't help but think about college and group projects and how there would be group projects and one or two people would do the work and other people in the group would coast. Have you had any of that sort of challenge where you've had to deal with that?
• 16:29
  Tara: You know, I think like like any firm, we've certainly had issues that pop up in the past. But what I will say is that having clarity about what we do and how we operate from the very beginning when we're interviewing someone, we have a talent search committee that goes out and interviews prospective candidates. We're really forthright about what our system looks like and that there is so much transparency and there is so much accountability at our firm. Because if someone isn't pulling their weight, like the group projects that you're talking about, it can really create this consternation that spreads very quickly throughout the whole firm. And so there have been some people who have, you know, sat down with us, interviewed with us, and we've explained the model.
• 17:22
  We've explained the accountability measures that we have in place, the transparency that data is shared with our practice group leads. Everyone can see their own hours very quickly. And there have been some people who've declined to join or we've declined to hire them as a result of some statements that they've made about, this is a lot of transparency and accountability. It's like, yep, it sure is. So one of the most important things that we've gotten from our business coach was hire slowly, fire quickly.
• 17:55
  And we try not to do the fire quickly. We try and really emphasize the hire slowly and vet individuals. And the ones who declined to join or that we declined to the extended invitation to are not bad people. They're bright attorneys. They go to other places and they just absolutely thrive.
• 18:13
  But because our model is so unique and it's so dependent on having everyone as part of that group project pulling very much in the same direction and super focused on that, there are just some people that it's not the right fit and that's okay.
• 18:29
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. As someone who doesn't have children, you know, do you have sort of an equitable, could I take off and do something personal for myself since I don't have children to balance out that sort of time off kind of thing that you do for people who do have children?
• 18:49
  Tara: Well, we have a number of other benefits that the firm offers as well. But, you know, I don't want to say and I don't want to give you the impression that, you know, our attorneys who have children are not working or they're not working as hard because they are. And they're not just taking off, you know, that time and then the time disappears. They still have their target. They're still meeting their target.
• 19:13
  It's just that we have a flexible option that allows them if they have to go at 03:00 or at 02:30 to pick up their child. And what works best for them is, you know, to come back, spend a couple hours, you know, check-in for after school things. And then they're working, you know, they want to work five to seven to complete the hours target or they're putting it in on a weekend because that just works better for their schedule. We're allowing for that and accommodating for that. And so in that way, you know, it is still equitable because we are still saying, look, we all have a responsibility here to make sure that we succeed.
• 19:50
  And if you're going to take those hours off, we're not going to shame you about it at all. You're a responsible adult and we know that you're going to make it up when you can and when it fits with your schedule. And, you know, they do it in a way that still meets the client goals. We've had attorneys who are at baseball practice and now they're not, you know, sitting there watching every play of baseball practice, but, you know, they whip out their laptop and they're on the sidelines and, you know, they're doing their research and they're doing everything that they need to do and getting it all in. And for us, it doesn't matter.
• 20:20
  The client is happy. The work is good. Who cares if it's on a baseball field or not on a baseball field or a soccer field or whatever it is? So, you know, for those individuals who don't have children, I don't have children. It is still fair because we are still holding everybody to the same kind of understanding of we have these reasonable hours and they have to be met.
• 20:41
  Davina: Right. Right. So going back to the origination fees, let's talk about that a little bit more. What made the owners decide to eliminate origination fees for people bringing in business originating business?
• 20:54
  Tara: At traditional law firms, you have a lot of origination fights. So by bringing a that comes back to us great, fabulous, I go to a different attorney. I try to stay out of the transactional world. It's a different language. But what has tended to happen is then those two attorneys, litigation attorney and the transactional attorneys start fighting about, well, who gets the bonus for bringing it in?
• 21:22
  You know, transactional attorney may say something like, yeah, but they heard about my work and it was so awesome. And so I really should get this origination fee or bonus. So now you created a situation that is fraught with tension between these two attorneys. So is the litigation attorney in you're going to refer someone to their call league within the firm if there's going to be this origination fight? Maybe yes, maybe no.
• 21:47
  Maybe they'll try and take the work themselves. So it's unnecessary. And in fact, I was hearing some horror stories from clients really recently, larger corporations and businesses that we work with about how these origination fights have actually spilled over into the client relationship. And one client was actually telling me we had this firm that we've been working with on some specialized area of the law and their attorney of like thirty years who's been helping us just retired. And the two other attorneys that had been working kind of sporadically on cases then asked us, which one of us do you want to be your new originating attorney?
• 22:28
  I was just horrified. I was absolutely horrified. And so, you know, it's like, it's just not a good look. It's all around. It spills those fights spill out into the streets.
• 22:39
  They're internal. You know, from a management perspective, it's absolutely horrid to try and play referee in these situations. So we're like, done. We're done.
• 22:49
  Davina: We're not doing it. We're
• 22:50
  Tara: not doing it. Yeah. Let's get away from that.
• 22:54
  Davina: I would say devil's advocate side is the incentive you know, being incentivized to bring in business. So how do you feel you sort of incentivize people to bring in business, or do you have sort of these team leads or aside to bring in business and we don't expect anybody else to bring in business? And if they do, great. And if they don't, great or how does that work?
• 23:17
  Tara: So we have three or four factors that we look at when we allocate profit share. And one of those factors is what you're doing to bring in business. So it's not the end all be all just like revenue, which is another factor isn't the end all be all. It is one factor that is weighed equally with the other factors. And each attorney is allocated a certain amount of time to do that type of networking and leading activity to bring in business.
• 23:45
  And surprisingly, you know, most people really love that aspect of the job. I mean, they like going to networking events, they like making connections and bringing in business, you know, always exceptions to the rule. We have some introverts too who may not want to do that as much, and that's okay. So but we've never had an issue with bringing in business to the firm. And, you know, these calls in this business that does come in, that book of business is not the individual's book of business We are trying to create relationships mostly with business owners.
• 24:16
  And when they come in, we're acting like in house counsel, but external for them. So from A to Z, whatever their issues are, we've had a practice area that can accommodate their needs and get them through whatever issues they are facing. So all of that comes into play. And so when business comes in, we're not like, well, this is so and so's client and they have
• 24:40
  Davina: to bring in five more to build up their book. That workload, that caseload gets distributed among the different practice group and different attorneys. I often discuss with women law firm owners who've started out as solos. In your case, you started out with founding partners, but who start out as solos is how do I make that transition from people who want to hire me to hiring the firm? And so with you starting out with co owners, this is something you dealt with right from the beginning.
• 25:14
  Somebody may say, well, I'm friends with Tara and I wanna hire her as my attorney, But how do you let them know right from the beginning that they're hiring the law firm and not you as an individual?
• 25:29
  Tara: So a couple of different ways. One, you know, we're not shy about talking about the fact that we're very collaborative and that we work as a team. Our engagement letter has an entire section on the second page that talks about we work collaboratively here and that there may be other attorneys that work on your matters and on your cases. And then when we're talking to a client during that initial intake consultation, normally we have about two attorneys assigned to each matter. And the reason we do that is because we want that client to always have access to an attorney.
• 26:06
  So if one attorney is out there in court, if they're unavailable for whatever reason, there's a second attorney that's going to jump in and immediately help them. So there is no lag time. There is no delay here. And so even during our initial consultations, we talk about that. You know, I will introduce if it's my connection of the person's like, you know, I want to hire you.
• 26:27
  I'll say that's really great and I'm happy to help if it's within my wheelhouse. But I'll introduce the other attorney and say, this is a really great person. They're here. They're very knowledgeable. They're going to be working with me.
• 26:40
  They may be your point of contact instead. So that warm handoff and just that very clear communication, I think, is vital to getting clients on board with us about here's how it works here. Give me an idea of the size of your firm. How many attorneys? How many staff?
• 26:57
  So we have 43 individuals that work at our firm in total. 21 of them are attorneys. We'll have two more attorneys joining us by the end of the year. We've got three offices. So Coeur D'Alene, Spokane, Idaho, Spokane, Washington, Boise, Idaho.
• 27:20
  And then we have one attorney who has an office out in the Tri Cities in Washington. So we're definitely growing.
• 27:29
  Davina: Oh, wow. Oh, wow. So when you started out with the three co owners, was it just the three of you? And how long did it take before you began to hire other lawyers?
• 27:40
  Tara: So when it started out, it was actually Peter Smith and Luke Malek first. I was still prosecuting. I was at the Department of Justice at the time and a federal prosecutor. And then they were just the two of them for a little bit for about, gosh, maybe a year or two before they brought on the first non owner attorney. So we had to really build it up, build the book of practice.
• 28:07
  So there was there. So there was revenue coming in. So it was definitely a process. Think one of the best things we ever did. And then I came on about three years later.
• 28:16
  But one of the best things I think we ever did was hire a business coach. And we're lucky enough in Idaho to have the Small Business Development Center, which offers free business coaching for a variety of different businesses. We've had the same business coach since inception. And I would say much credit goes to his guidance and wisdom really working with us and, you know, talking through issues about when do we hire and, you know, how big do we have to be and how do we set attainable and achievable goals here and how do we really focus in? So that's been, I think, really critical to our success.
• 28:55
  And anyone who wants to start a firm, you know, that's one of the first things I tell them. We're great lawyers. We're not great business owners. We have no idea what we're doing. We can give that advice to other people, but, you know, managing people and, you know, profit and loss statements and revenue goals.
• 29:11
  And these are things we don't have to think about usually when we're at another firm and certainly not in the same way. And so it's a skill and it's a style that we have to develop. It's a muscle we have to develop. And the best thing we can do is arm ourselves with resources and really tap into the resources of our jurisdictions to get us there.
• 29:33
  Davina: Right. Right. I totally agree with you. I'm a huge well, obviously, since I am a business coach and I have hired many business coaches, I certainly am in agreement with you about the value of that. Tell me about your practice areas so people have a sense of your practice and the practice areas and the kind of clients you serve.
• 29:52
  Tara: So we cater to businesses and we have business clients that are small and large. And then under that big umbrella of business law, we have a litigation practice group that handles a variety of different matters, everything from trade secrets cases to employment disputes, to unfair competition and breach of contract cases, property issues, so on and so forth. And then we have a transactional team. They handle real estate and property law. That's another big area that we engage in.
• 30:29
  We handle mergers and acquisitions. We do some banking law. I have a smattering of civil rights cases right now that I'm handling. Another big area that we handle is health care law and health care regulatory law. So we work with a lot of federally qualified health care centers throughout The United States.
• 30:51
  And so we help advise them on how to set up their operations, how to get through their audits, how to stage and write out their contracts in a way that meets the requirements. We handle the firings and hirings if the client asks us to. So it's a little bit of everything. And usually I tell people, you know, what we don't do is we don't handle family law and we don't handle any sort of criminal type of work. So no criminal defense, no family law, but everything else we really try and help our clients through whatever issues that are arising there.
• 31:31
  Davina: Right. Do you have remote workers or is everybody in an office?
• 31:37
  Tara: We have the option of remote work. What we encourage people to do is to be in the office for some consistent period of time. So they may work from home or elsewhere one day or two days a week, but the majority of time people are spending it in the office and they're choosing to do that because we want to have a really healthy culture. And it's hard to create a healthy culture and a culture of trust where you feel engaged and connected to somebody else if no one ever sees you in person. And so even though we don't have a hard and fast rule about how many days you have to be in the office, how many days can you be remote, everyone really understands that.
• 32:23
  And most people choose to be in the office the majority of the time because they like seeing their colleagues and they like touching base with them. You know, one of the best things I think about this process has been really watching those relationships among colleagues flourish and its attorneys and staff. And so we do a lot of things together to kind of team build. We'll have a happy hour. We'll go out to lunch together.
• 32:45
  We'll do a brown bag lunch together. And so that has been, I think, really helpful as well. And for us, because we have this collaborative model, having those personal interpersonal relationships is so critical to our success. I think everyone understands that.
• 33:03
  Davina: Right. Right. It sounds like you really are really created a culture of collaboration and community and all of that. So I'm sure that that's important to you how your culture has evolved. That's one of the things I miss about working in an office in person back when I worked for other people.
• 33:20
  I always enjoyed the relationships I have with coworkers and have kept many friends through the years that I still have or people that I used to work with at different companies. So I do think that's an important part of it. So tell me what other sort of policies do you think that you have that have made your firm more sort of parent friendly and family friendly?
• 33:42
  Tara: Well, we adopted a parental leave policy that we've kind of built upon. And so we offer sixteen weeks of paid parental leave for attorneys and for staff. And whether it's you have a foster child, a biological child, an adopted child that you are bringing into your family, we want to be sensitive to that and we want you to really connect and make those family connections. Having someone who has stability in their family life as far as having the space to do what they need to do as a parent is so important. And that bond is so important for a happy employee and a happy employee is going to be a more productive employee.
• 34:27
  So, you know, it's all very much connected. So that parental leave policy we have adopted and we've grown over time and really at the urging of one of our attorneys as we were starting out. Obviously, we're a very new firm and we were figuring out what kind of benefits can we provide. And we had several attorneys and one in particular who was going to be a parent again and really pressed us to consider a parental leave policy. And that really spurred a lot of our discussion, which was helpful.
• 35:00
  And then we offered different things like mental health counseling. We have free mental health counseling for attorneys and staff. There's a number they can call. It's completely separate and apart from us, it's a third party. So those are the types of benefits that we've tried to incorporate.
• 35:17
  And we're trying to take a really more holistic approach to what now is, I think, a new benchmark with some of the newer employees that are coming into the market. Times have changed. Expectations have changed about what work life balance looks like, what a healthy model is. And so we are constantly striving to listen and to learn from our employees and just look around us at what other companies and institutions are trying to do as well.
• 35:51
  Davina: I think that's fantastic. And I'd love to hear it because our culture of work in The United States has really shifted since the pandemic. And it's exciting to see what some law firms are doing and younger lawyers are doing as they're starting and establishing and growing their law firms. I want to go back to the kind of flattening of the hierarchy part because I don't think we've talked about that in those terms. One of the things that I often tell my clients is if you don't create a career path for your employees, they will look for a career path outside of your business.
• 36:28
  So in other words, if you're hiring someone as an associate, having someone have an opportunity to elevate to some sort of partnership, non equity partnership or whatever, or something to increase the amount of money that they get for the job or whatever it is that incentivizes people. And in your model, you said something interesting at the beginning. You didn't talk about hiring associates. You talked about treating all of your attorneys as partners. You're not bringing people in and saying you have an opportunity to work your way up the ladder.
• 37:05
  You're coming in and saying we have a flat hierarchy, no hierarchy model. So talk to me a little bit more about how that idea formulated because a traditional law firm is very much of a hierarchy.
• 37:21
  Tara: Yeah. I think we have eliminated the hierarchy. But what I think is more critical is having people who are aligned with the mission and vision of the firm. It's about fulfillment ultimately. It's and what you're talking about, which is a certain level of fulfillment or a type of fulfillment, whether it's through compensation or whether it's through a title.
• 37:48
  And our theory behind it, which has panned out is we're a very mission and vision oriented firm. So we exist to be a force of justice in the world and we exist to change the world for the better. And those are the two kind of guiding principles that we really focus on. And so when we're talking to people about joining the firm, we're like, here's what we stand for. This is our mission and vision statement.
• 38:14
  And so while we may not have a partnership track, that's our goal. That's the reason why this firm exists. And so there's a lot of buy in to that mission and vision. In order to do that, while we don't have partnership, we do compensate our attorneys and our staff members competitively with everybody else. Each year, we're trying to add more benefits that are meaningful to their life.
• 38:39
  We have a lot of conversations with our attorneys and staff about, you know, their personal why. You know, why do they exist? What is it that they want out of life? What would they like to achieve? What do they think their career path looks like?
• 38:54
  And so it's not the title of partnership that they're working towards. What we're working towards is clarity of defining what their personal why is and what fulfillment looks like. And so, you know, fulfillment may be for them, you know, to be able to be a practice group lead and really guide a practice group towards a particular goal of, you know, helping a certain demographic of individuals. Great. We'll help you with that.
• 39:25
  We'll be right there with you. It may be to, you know, change responsibilities and to really lean into some of the more networking, bring in businesses because they're so invested in spreading the word of what we do. Great. Fabulous. We'll do that.
• 39:42
  So I think that often we confuse labels with a career trajectory and it's not the same. I think your career trajectory and you can still be challenged and still move up in your career without labels. What we're talking about is what is going to personally fulfill you. And once we kind of explain and go through that concept of it's not the label, it's the work, it's not the label, it's the why statement. It really, I think, helps.
• 40:14
  And people understand that at our firm, they get it. And so it makes for much more meaningful conversations when we're talking about where do you want to be instead of partner. It's like this is what I envisioned for my life. And then we can have a conversation of how do we get you there.
• 40:30
  Davina: I love this. I'm so glad you're sharing it because this is something I've been having conversations with other women law firm owners about. We are no longer in a work environment. We can just make decisions about kind of what our structure is gonna be without involving the employee in the discussion on an individual level. What is it that you find fulfilling or satisfying?
• 40:55
  What is it that you need to feel like this is the right workplace for you? And really looking and asking ourselves, all right, is that something we can easily fulfill? Is that something we're willing to do? So for instance, we use remote work as an example. If you have people who are saying, you know, I really need the flexibility to be able to work from home some.
• 41:16
  If that's something you feel you can accommodate by asking that question and having them give you that answer, that is something that you could say, oh, I can do that. But you don't have to apply everything across the board to everybody in terms of somebody else's idea of what is fulfilling for them and what they need from their career may be different. But making sure that you're having conversations with the employees to find out what it is that they individually need and then seeing if that aligns with your business and what you're doing. That sounds like what you're talking about. Is that kind of having more individualized conversations and getting that feedback and then Yeah.
• 41:55
  Growing from Yeah.
• 41:57
  Tara: Yeah. Absolutely. That check-in is so important. No one wants to feel like they're just a cog in a wheel. And so and even more so now, even more so post pandemic where it was so isolating and, you know, everyone's forced to do remote work and you didn't have the touch base.
• 42:14
  And I think our culture has really shifted in order for an employee to feel fulfilled. They need that personal connection. They need to know that you're listening to them as a business owner, as a manager, whoever it is, and that you understand what drives them. And sometimes they don't know yet. Sometimes they're still in this exploratory stage of trying to figure it out.
• 42:37
  And, you know, to those individuals, we try and provide resources and give them books to read. And then we just have this ongoing conversation, but we try and create this safe space for them to be able to explore what different career trajectories and paths look like, how they can continue to feel fulfilled and challenged. And so long as it aligns with what we're doing at the firm, really, it's all benefit and not a lot of risk in that.
• 43:04
  Davina: Right. Right. Right. So somebody came in and said, I want to start a criminal practice. You probably wouldn't because it's just not what you do.
• 43:12
  But if they say, you know, I'd really like to target this vertical in the business world because I think there's a lot of potential, then that may make more sense or something. What is interesting to me is we're talking about too I think everybody goes to the money piece or the work from home piece as, you know, in ways to incentivize employees. So I give them a raise. Do I let them work from home? You know, like the kind of those go tos.
• 43:39
  Do I provide insurance or whatever? And something that you've touched upon that I think warrants deeper exploration for business owners is this idea that we're really talking about providing fulfilling work to do something that feels purposeful and meaningful to the employee. Think that often gets left out of the conversation because as lawyers in particular or paralegals or anyone who wants to work with a law firm, we're drawn to this profession in part because of the service aspect of it, the ability to help people when during really difficult challenging situations and times in their life. And I think that often those questions, conversations between employer and employee get left out. The employer may have a vision of how we're gonna help people in the world, but not tapping into individuals and asking them about their connection to the work that you're doing.
• 44:40
  So I think that's an interesting aspect to this that really what you're talking about here, it's not these sort of external factors, but it's really about purpose, purpose based work and the why. What sort of mechanisms do you use to extract that information or get that from employees?
• 44:59
  Tara: Well, we've got a pretty built out framework for mentorship programs. So for, you know, newer attorneys to the firm, they spend a lot of time with their mentoring attorney. And we talk about that a lot. We check-in how's the work feel? How are you doing?
• 45:14
  You know, what do you think? What do you like the best? What do you not like the best? We also have a firm book club, which anyone can join. And what we're doing with them is we understand that we're creating the new level of leadership, and it's not something that you're necessarily born with.
• 45:32
  And so we read together a lot of different types of leadership books. One of the books that our firm and many in our firm read and I joke about quite often is the book Start With Why by Simon Sinek. And I joke that we pray at the altar of Simon Sinek a little bit here because it's such a fabulous job of explaining why a personal why and a business why is so critical for success and what it does to make you stand out. You know, Apple was not the first company that created computers, but they thrived and they're still thriving. Why is that?
• 46:14
  Because they have their why dialed in. You know, Microsoft was also not the first. What makes them stand out and really thrive still to this day? So, you know, those are the type of resources we try and provide to our attorneys and say, hey, let's read this book. You read this book and then we follow-up.
• 46:34
  Let's talk about it. What did you think about it? You know, what ideas did it spur for you for your own personal why? And then we also have check ins with our our practice group leads check-in on a weekly basis with the attorneys within their practice group. That personal touch and that personal connection is what we try and do is one of the main mechanisms for making sure that those are ongoing conversations.
• 46:58
  And then the second area is providing the resources to spur that conversation and to help our attorneys really elevate their thinking in a different way that maybe they haven't done before.
• 47:11
  Davina: Right. Right. You're cultivating leaders within your organization, people who in addition to their own personal fulfillment. You know? I imagine this has really helped to minimize turnover in your Yes.
• 47:25
  Firm. Is that the case? It does.
• 47:27
  Tara: I mean, we've certainly had turnover. I think every firm has turnover. You know, people decide that it's not the right fit or they just there's something else that just piques their interest, and that's okay. And oftentimes we'll try and help them. You know, we've certainly had conversations where someone's like, you know, maybe I wanted to do family law.
• 47:46
  Maybe I want to do some type of immigration law. And it's not really what we do. And we're like, okay, well, let's help you get to where you want to go and we'll help them find that job that does really, you know, fulfill them. But you're right. It does help having a purpose driven firm and having discussions about individual purpose and fulfillment really has helped, I think, with keeping the employees here for a longer period of time, providing the challenges that are meaningful to them, and providing them opportunities in, you know, that safer environment for self exploration.
• 48:28
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Tara, I've enjoyed our conversation so much. Thanks so much for being here. Tell us how we can find out more about Smith Malek and connect with you guys.
• 48:38
  Tara: Absolutely. So we have our website, smithmalek.com, and Malek is spelled m a l e k. I'm also on LinkedIn, Tara Malek. You can find me there and drop me a message. I'm happy to speak to anybody if they have any questions about the model or anything else.
• 48:55
  Thanks so much for having me on.
• 48:57
  Davina: Wonderful. Thanks so much for being here. I really enjoyed it.
• 49:01
  Intro: If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at wealthywomanlawyer.com to learn more about how we help our clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.