Latest / Collectors MD Features / #19: Compulsive Collecting & Spending | Their Own Drum

Transcript

#19: Compulsive Collecting & Spending | Their Own Drum · Collectors MD Features

0:24
This is episode 13 of Their Own Drum. I'm your
0:26
host, Sam Sherman. Those of you who've been listening
0:29
for a while to this show know that I'm a mental
0:31
health therapist specializing in gambling recovery
0:33
and addiction. Part of what comes with that work
0:36
is constantly thinking about the spaces where
0:39
compulsive and addictive behaviors live and where
0:42
the support systems around those behaviors exist
0:44
or don't. And for a long time, I've been asking
0:46
a question to colleagues, to leaders in the recovery
0:49
space, to people in gambling research, people
0:52
who really know this stuff. And the question
0:54
was essentially, is there anything out there
0:56
specifically for people who are struggling within
0:57
the collecting world? Sports cards, Pokemon,
1:00
box breaks, all that stuff. Because what I was
1:04
seeing both professionally and honestly just
1:06
personally, as I also got pulled into the world
1:08
of box breaks during the pandemic like a lot
1:10
of people did, is that there's something real
1:12
happening there. Something that shares a lot
1:14
of the same psychological machinery as gambling,
1:17
but lives in this space that gets framed as a
1:19
hobby, as nostalgia, as community. And because
1:22
of that framing, it kind of flies under the radar.
1:24
And every time I've asked that question, the
1:27
answer I get back is some version of, that's
1:29
a really good question, but no, not to my knowledge,
1:32
nothing like that exists. Until now. Collectors
1:35
MD is a recovery -focused organization built
1:38
specifically for people struggling with compulsive
1:40
collecting, overspending, and gambling -adjacent
1:43
behaviors within hobby spaces. They offer peer
1:46
support meetings, a 12 -step -based recovery
1:48
guide, educational resources, and partnerships
1:51
with hobby brands and recovery organizations,
1:53
all centered around what they call one simple
1:56
but powerful idea, rip responsibly. Today's guest
2:00
is Alyx Effron. He is the founder of Collectors
2:03
MD. Someone who I deeply admire for the work
2:06
they and their team have done in a space that
2:08
really badly needs it. So without further ado,
2:10
my conversation with Alyx Effron, the founder
2:13
of Collectors MD. As always, a massive thank you
2:16
to the team here at Their Own Drum. That team
2:18
consists of John Marikoski, who's responsible
2:19
for writing, producing, and performing our beautiful
2:22
theme music, along with Sam Peters on the stand
2:24
-up bass. Alex Foster is our show illustrator
2:27
and consulting producer, responsible for all
2:29
of our beautiful artwork here on the show. And
2:31
Max Kimble is our other consulting producer,
2:33
and for my money, has some of the best understanding
2:36
of what is good in art and culture. Alyx Effron,
2:42
thank you so much for joining their own drum.
2:45
How are you doing today? I'm doing well. I'm
2:48
doing well. I can't believe it's June 1st. I
2:50
know. I know. It really feels like the last,
2:53
I don't know, this whole year, I feel like I
2:56
keep finding myself in this pattern of any given
2:59
week that I'm checking in with, well, where are
3:01
we in the month? It's like, oh, next week is
3:03
the next month. It just feels like we're flying
3:05
through it. I know. It's crazy. Yeah. June 1st.
3:08
Here we go. Alyx, we were talking a little bit
3:11
before we started recording just in terms of
3:13
how I heard about you and your organization and
3:16
the work that you do. And I'll tell you that
3:18
when I first heard the name of your organization,
3:22
Collectors MD, dropped on a podcast about gambling
3:27
recovery. And when I was telling you this a moment
3:31
ago, but to kind of go in more detail, when I
3:33
heard a little bit about what you do and what
3:35
the work of your organization does, It sparked
3:38
something for me. So the listeners know this,
3:40
but I'm a mental health therapist and I'm specializing
3:43
in gambling recovery and addiction. And I also
3:49
am a person who has personal connections to collecting
3:53
and to TCGs and things like that. But we'll get
3:57
into more of this as we go along. Your space
4:00
of what you've created and the work that you
4:03
do is something that my friends and I have long
4:05
been wondering if this exists because it just
4:07
feels like such an incredibly relevant topic,
4:16
especially not just now, but for the last several
4:18
years, the ways that it sort of compares to...
4:22
gambling and the ways that it compares to some
4:24
of these other issues that are coming up and
4:26
the accessibility and everything is something
4:28
that just was like mind blowing for me to see
4:30
that it actually exists, that there's people
4:31
doing this work now. So Alyx, if you can, I'd
4:35
love to just kind of hear about, you know, your
4:37
story and sort of what brought us here today
4:40
to ultimately starting Collectors MD. But tell
4:43
me a little bit about Alyx. Yeah, Sam, I mean,
4:46
thank you so much for the work you're doing,
4:47
mentioning that you're working in the recovery
4:49
space and really keying in on a lot of these
4:52
issues that we're seeing really just explode,
4:56
not just across the country, but across the globe.
4:59
We are really in what we're calling a dopamine
5:02
economy crisis. It's very much an epidemic in
5:04
a lot of ways. And what you just said, that's
5:08
not the first time we've heard that, right? In
5:09
a lot of ways, Collectors MD feels like something
5:11
that was a long time coming. When we started
5:14
having these conversations publicly, one of the
5:16
most common reactions wasn't skepticism. It was
5:19
people saying, wait. this didn't already exist
5:22
and that's what surprised me most the problem
5:25
itself wasn't new the stories weren't new the
5:28
financial struggles the secrecy the relationship
5:30
issues the chasing the emotional roller coaster
5:34
those things have been happening for years even
5:37
decades what was missing was a language to talk
5:40
about it and a place for people to turn and that
5:43
all started through my own lived experience And
5:46
so for me, this didn't start as a business idea.
5:49
It started as a personal problem. I grew up collecting
5:52
everything, cards, sneakers, toys, memorabilia.
5:58
There were different chapters of my life where
6:00
I experienced different versions of collecting.
6:03
I collected watches throughout my 20s. Sneakers
6:06
became a huge part of my identity. And like a
6:09
lot of people, collecting has been tied to things
6:12
like childhood memories, sports, community, excitement,
6:15
nostalgia, family. There's something special
6:18
about opening a pack or a box or a package. Finding
6:24
your favorite player or seeing that item that
6:27
you were longing for for so long in front of
6:30
you in your hands for the first time and building
6:33
a collection that really feels meaningful. And
6:35
so as I got older, the hobby changed, technology
6:38
changed, the industry changed. What started as
6:42
collecting slowly became something else. I found
6:45
myself spending more time chasing and collecting,
6:47
breaking, buying, selling, flipping. constantly
6:51
checking the monetary value of something instead
6:55
of really appreciating it for what it was the
6:58
way I did as a kid, right? Like watching the
7:00
live streams being sucked into the social media.
7:04
refreshing all of the marketplaces and always
7:07
just looking for that next hit of excitement.
7:09
There was always another release, another opportunity,
7:12
another card, another pair of sneakers, another
7:14
reason to spend money. And the thing that really
7:17
opened my eyes was realizing how many of those
7:19
people that are in these spaces were experiencing
7:23
the exact same thing. At first, I thought it
7:26
was just me. I thought I was crazy. I had a problem.
7:29
I was overly obsessive. Then I started hearing
7:32
stories from other collectors, some that had
7:34
gone into debt, some had hidden purchases from
7:37
spouses, some were spending money they couldn't
7:39
afford to lose, similar to what I was doing,
7:42
right? And some were neglecting responsibilities
7:45
and the relationships and their careers and other
7:50
areas of their lives because they had become
7:52
consumed by whatever hobby it was for them. Specifically
7:56
for me, it was the sports cards. What struck
7:59
me most was that these weren't irresponsible
8:02
people. They were teachers, doctors, parents,
8:06
business owners, professionals that on the surface
8:09
looked like they had it all figured out. These
8:11
were people who were successful in every other
8:14
area of life, but found themselves caught in
8:17
an environment that was becoming increasingly
8:19
difficult to navigate. And the more conversations
8:22
that I had, the more I realized there were thousands
8:24
of people dealing with the same thing, but nobody
8:27
was talking about it openly. There are resources
8:30
for gambling. There are resources for substance
8:33
use. There are resources for many other challenges
8:36
and vices that people face, but there was virtually
8:40
nothing for someone struggling with compulsive
8:43
collecting, overspending, or gambling -like behaviors
8:47
within hobbies and collecting ecosystems. That's
8:50
really where Collectors MD came from. It wasn't
8:52
born out of a business plan. It was really born
8:55
out of need. You know, and you hit on something
8:59
that I think is so critical in this idea of the
9:02
lack of accessibility. or awareness around these
9:05
spaces. And what I mean by that is, is I often,
9:07
you know, think about what are the big differences
9:09
between, let's say, you know, gambling addiction
9:12
or compulsive gambling, and we'll get into collecting
9:16
in a moment and like some of the, you know, whether
9:18
it be a substance or other behavioral addictions.
9:21
And I always think about it like, well, there's
9:23
a, there's a, there's some awareness when you.
9:26
you know in 2026 there's some awareness that
9:28
when you take a sip of alcohol or you you know
9:30
you do uh you know you you take a drug of some
9:33
sort that there might be some risk involved in
9:35
that and i always think about with gambling We're
9:38
moving the needle a little bit, but traditionally
9:40
people don't have as much awareness around some
9:43
of the risks that come along with that. And so
9:45
then obviously there's programs like Gamblers
9:47
Anonymous, but I've heard many stories even to
9:50
this day of people who are trying to work on
9:54
their recovery with gambling and people not knowing
9:56
that Gamblers Anonymous even exists. So they
9:58
find themselves in AA or NA rooms and not really
10:02
feeling connected to the rooms because it's different
10:04
experiences. And so with collecting, I think
10:07
about, I wonder if similar things have happened
10:09
where maybe people will try to go to a GA meeting
10:12
because maybe they feel like there's compulsive
10:15
spending or collecting specifically in this space.
10:18
And maybe they don't feel connected exactly in
10:20
that space. And that's why this really feels
10:23
particularly novel to me because this is, sounds
10:26
like these are. And I know it's not exactly the
10:29
sort of 12 step or anything like that, but it
10:32
is a space that is more specific to these challenges.
10:36
Yeah, well said. You know, we actually do offer
10:40
a 12 step program as part of what we do. We have
10:42
a recovery guide, which can be accessed on our
10:45
website. We use it to stay grounded, stay rooted
10:49
in our recovery. It's really the foundation of.
10:52
the program and everything we do. We read it
10:54
every single week during our peer support meetings.
10:57
But yeah, man, one of the biggest parts of what
10:59
we're doing is just all about awareness. When
11:01
people think about some of the risky behaviors
11:03
that you just mentioned, the alcohol, the drugs,
11:06
the gambling, you know, that's typically what
11:09
comes to mind. Society generally understands
11:11
that those activities carry some level of risk.
11:15
There are warning labels. There's public awareness
11:17
campaigns. There's treatment programs. There's
11:19
educational resources. There's support systems
11:22
built around them. You have GA, AA, NA. You have
11:25
all these councils and coalitions. You have different
11:27
recovery organizations that are dedicated to
11:31
helping people. Collecting and many of these
11:34
gambling -adjacent industries are different.
11:36
And they're often disguised as something positive,
11:39
productive, harmless, maybe rooted in childhood
11:43
nostalgia. They're presented as hobbies, investing
11:46
opportunities, side hustles, communities, entertainment,
11:50
passion projects. Nobody sits down and says,
11:52
I'm going to develop a program with sports cards
11:56
today or for people who are addicted to Pokemon
11:58
or Labooboo, right? Nobody downloads a marketplace
12:01
app thinking they're entering a potentially risky
12:04
environment. They believe they're collecting,
12:07
investing, supporting creators or participating
12:10
in a community that they enjoy. And that's what
12:13
makes these environments so unique and in many
12:15
ways more difficult to recognize when things
12:18
start going wrong. The warning signs can hide
12:21
in plain sight. Excessive spending gets framed
12:24
as investing, right? Because you're actually
12:26
getting something tangible in return as opposed
12:29
to just gambling it away. Chasing losses gets
12:33
framed as trying to complete a set or make back
12:36
money on a flip. Constant engagement gets framed
12:40
as passion. The reality is that many of the same
12:43
psychological mechanisms that exist within traditional
12:46
gambling environments can also exist within these
12:48
spaces, right? We're talking about randomized
12:50
rewards, variable outcomes, scarcity, social
12:54
reinforcement, near misses, fear of missing out,
12:58
constant access, and instant feedback loops that
13:01
all have the ability to influence somebody's
13:03
behavior. And to be clear, that doesn't mean
13:06
collecting is gambling it's not a one -to -one
13:09
it's not black and white and it doesn't mean
13:11
everyone who participates is at risk most people
13:15
can engage responsibly the issue is that when
13:18
problems do develop within people they're often
13:21
much harder to identify because the activity
13:24
itself isn't necessarily viewed as inherently
13:27
risky that's why awareness matters so much we
13:31
aren't trying to scare people away from hobbies
13:33
they love we're trying to help people recognize
13:35
when a healthy hobby starts to become something
13:37
else the earlier people can recognize those patterns
13:40
the more likely they are to make more informed
13:43
decisions before serious financial emotional
13:46
mental relational consequences begin to develop
13:51
and we also live in a time now where everything
13:53
is just you know digital and because of that
13:57
the environments are so frictionless by nature.
14:00
They're engineered to hook people, to suck them
14:03
in, to keep them engaged. Right. And so that
14:06
has just made it exponentially more dangerous
14:09
and harder for people to break these cycles.
14:13
So. It would have been probably, it was during
14:15
the beginning of the pandemic, the lockdown back
14:18
in 2020, when I was on TikTok like seemingly
14:21
everybody else in the world and spending a lot
14:23
of time in the evenings on there. And that's
14:26
when I first came across breaks, box breaks,
14:29
pack breaks, all these sorts of things. Real
14:31
quick, I want to kind of bring in the component,
14:34
but for our listeners, can you kind of give a
14:36
little bit of a, can you give a description of
14:38
kind of what a box break is for people who may
14:40
not know or what the breaking is? Yeah, I got
14:43
in around the same time. It was around the pandemic
14:45
when I was reintroduced to the modern day sports
14:47
card hobby. And I had no idea at the time what
14:50
a break was. But for those listening who have
14:52
never heard of it, a box break is essentially
14:54
a group opening of trading card products. Instead
14:58
of one person buying an entire box of cards,
15:01
which can cost anywhere from a couple hundred
15:04
bucks to upwards of 10 ,000, a breaker. will
15:08
sell spots to participants usually based on teams
15:12
players divisions sometimes random assignments
15:17
for example if a box of cards contains all 32
15:21
nfl teams someone might pay for the eagles someone
15:24
else might pay for the cowboys someone else might
15:26
pay for the giants and so on and so forth the
15:29
breaker then opens the product live on camera
15:32
and whichever cards come out for your team belong
15:35
to you. So if they hit a Jackson Dart and you've
15:38
been assigned the Giants, the Jackson Dart belongs
15:40
to you. That card gets shipped to you. On the
15:43
surface, it's fun and social and creates a sense
15:47
of community and camaraderie. And it's just like
15:49
a more exciting way to collect, right? People
15:52
enjoy the community aspect, the excitement of
15:55
opening products together and the chance to,
15:57
you know, acquire cards they might not otherwise
16:00
be able to afford if they had to buy the entire
16:02
box themselves. And the reason box breaking often
16:05
comes up in our conversations is because it introduces
16:10
a significant element of chance. You might spend
16:13
$50 and pull a card worth thousands, or you might
16:16
buy multiple teams or buy into a high -end break
16:19
and spend $500, $1 ,000, $5 ,000 and receive
16:23
little in return. You don't know the outcome
16:26
until the product is open. That's why many people
16:29
describe breaking as sitting somewhere between
16:31
collecting and gambling. You're still receiving
16:34
a tangible item, unlike a casino wager, but you're
16:38
also paying for a chance at a highly uncertain
16:40
outcome. And so the anticipation, the suspense,
16:43
the near misses. the big hits, the emotional
16:46
highs, all of that can feel very similar to what
16:48
people experience in traditional gambling environments.
16:52
Again, that doesn't mean breaking is inherently
16:54
bad. Many people participate responsibly and
16:57
enjoy it purely as entertainment. The challenge
17:00
is that for some individuals, especially those
17:03
who may be vulnerable to things like chasing,
17:06
impulsivity, compulsive behaviors, these sort
17:09
of things. the experience can become less about
17:12
the purity of collecting and more about pursuing
17:15
the next big hit or the next big payout. You
17:19
know, and I appreciate you kind of giving that
17:21
background on it because when I... you know i
17:23
collected like like i'm sure a lot of people
17:25
growing up i collected sports cards and and uh
17:28
you know magic cards pokemon cards all that kind
17:30
of stuff um and then was like you kind of reintroduced
17:33
to it in 2020 in terms of like you said like
17:35
the modern ways of engaging with um with collecting
17:38
or at least with sports cards and i became enamored
17:41
with these videos i mean i was watching i was
17:42
subscribed to several of the channels uh watching
17:45
all the different breaks every night they'd come
17:47
on at the same time there was a routine there
17:48
was kind of a comfort to it in watching it And
17:51
I think you hit the nail on the head with something
17:53
that for me really was, admittedly, though I
17:59
never bought into any of the breaks back then,
18:01
but I'd watch them every single night. And I
18:04
would, you know, like whatever time it was, I'd
18:06
make sure I was on to watch whichever one. And
18:08
it was the community part of it. Of course, this
18:10
happened when we were all locked down, when we
18:12
were isolated, when all these sorts of things.
18:14
But there is this aspect of. everyone in the,
18:17
in the chat, you know, cheering on everybody
18:19
or getting excited when somebody would open something
18:21
big or whatever. And it would seem like the creators
18:23
who were doing these breaks, whether they were
18:25
doing it intentionally or unintentionally do
18:27
seem to lean into that aspect where, where they
18:31
want, they want it to be like, we're all a community
18:33
where, you know, this is, this is, we're all
18:35
rooting for each other kind of a thing, which
18:37
again, like you've said. on it on its face can
18:40
be totally can be fine except for the fact that
18:42
there's just as traditionally as we go back to
18:44
awareness such a lack of awareness around uh
18:47
just naming some of these things for what they
18:49
are in a lot of different ways absolutely can
18:52
i add something there absolutely yeah So one
18:54
of the reasons this issue has accelerated so
18:57
quickly is because technology has evolved, right?
19:00
During the pandemic, when you and I got in, most
19:02
breaking happened in environments like Facebook,
19:05
Instagram Live, YouTube, and a handful of independent
19:08
websites where you could live stream. There were
19:11
certainly risks involved, but there was also
19:14
way more friction. You had to find a breaker.
19:17
You had to join a stream. You had to send a payment
19:19
in some way. You had to wait for confirmation.
19:22
You had to go through all these multiple steps
19:23
before you actually participated. Today, platforms
19:27
like Whatnot, Fanatics Live, eBay Live, and others
19:31
have removed almost all of that friction. Everything
19:35
happens in one place. Discovery, entertainment,
19:38
social interaction, bidding, purchasing, breaking
19:40
checkout, notifications, rewards, payment processing.
19:44
All of those things are integrated into one single
19:47
app. So you can go from watching a stream to
19:51
sort of mindlessly swiping your thumb on an auction
19:55
and spending hundreds of dollars in seconds without
19:58
even realizing it. These platforms aren't necessarily
20:01
designed with harmful intent. That's important
20:04
to, you know. Outline, they're designed to maximize
20:07
engagement, maximize convenience, and maximize
20:10
transaction volume. The challenge is that these
20:13
same features can create an environment that's
20:15
incredibly difficult for people to disengage
20:18
from. You're no longer just buying cards. Or
20:21
sneakers or watches or handbags. I mean, Whatnot.
20:24
You could buy anything on there now. Right. Shop.
20:26
Yeah. You're receiving push notifications. You're
20:29
getting alerts when your favorite breaker goes
20:31
live. You're seeing countdown timers. You're
20:34
watching thousands of people bid in real time
20:37
and engage in the live chat, hyping everybody
20:41
up. You're seeing huge hits that are posted instantly
20:44
across social media. You're receiving rewards.
20:48
or credits or bonuses the same way you might
20:50
in a casino environment. They do giveaways. There's
20:53
so many different incentives now to stay engaged,
20:56
even for people who aren't spending. And the
20:58
entire experience has just become so much faster,
21:00
so much more immersive, so much more accessible
21:03
than it was before. And that's why I often describe
21:06
what I just illustrated as a slippery slope.
21:09
During the pandemic, someone might have... had
21:12
to make several conscious decisions before entering
21:14
a break. And if you take a step back even further,
21:17
you think about before the live environments
21:19
even existed. the steps you had to take to purchase
21:23
a box of cards whether it was just ordering a
21:26
box online or actually having to get on the wheel
21:29
of a car and drive to a brick and mortar walk
21:32
into the store engage with another person to
21:34
purchase something maybe open it right then and
21:37
there in front of other people there were layers
21:39
to it today a person can be lying in bed at midnight
21:43
Receive a notification that a breaker just went
21:45
live, click into a stream, get caught up in the
21:48
excitement and spend hundreds, thousands, tens
21:51
of thousands of dollars before they even realize
21:53
what's happened. That combination of just the
21:57
constant access, the social reinforcement, the
21:59
instant gratification, the frictionless payments,
22:02
the highly stimulating content. All of that creates
22:06
a very different environment and experience than
22:08
what existed just a few years ago. And that's
22:11
not unique to collecting either, right? It's
22:13
the same trend we're seeing across sports betting,
22:15
prediction markets, crypto trading, gaming, social
22:17
media. Technology has dramatically reduced the
22:20
barriers between impulse and action. When friction
22:23
goes away, self -awareness and personal guardrails
22:26
become even more important. And that's what we're
22:29
trying to offer people. I want to talk about
22:32
those guardrails, those sort of safeguards, because
22:34
You know, working in the gambling space, I often
22:40
will be asked, people will sometimes ask me and
22:42
seem to assume that I would vote for a ban on
22:46
gambling or something like that. And it's not
22:47
true. I would not vote for that. However, I'm
22:50
not anti -gambling, but I am extremely pro -safeguards,
22:55
pro -awareness, pro -building, which, as we know,
22:59
the Wild West, as I like to call it, the Wild
23:00
West of when gambling was legalized. uh sports
23:05
betting back in in 2018 and we saw the wild west
23:08
in the sense that there was no regulation there's
23:10
no safeguards nothing in place people are making
23:12
a lot of money um and and we still i don't think
23:15
this we go on a whole other conversation about
23:17
this i still don't think we've seen the the the
23:20
just how bad things are going to get because
23:22
of all that stuff we're all of that said the
23:24
surface that's just scratching the surface so
23:26
what have you found through through the organization
23:28
or just through your work that um When we talk
23:31
about safeguards, when people might say, well,
23:34
you know, Alyx, what do you mean when we say
23:35
safeguards, when we say guardrails? What do you
23:38
sort of advocate or what have you found some
23:40
things could be when it comes to, you know, some
23:44
of these initial things that we could do to at
23:46
least put up some guardrails? Yeah. So one thing
23:49
we emphasize a lot. at Collectors MD is that awareness
23:52
is important, but awareness alone usually isn't
23:55
enough. Most people already know they're struggling
23:57
by the time that they reach out. And so the question
23:59
becomes, what practical steps can they take to
24:02
create some stability? And that's where the personal
24:04
guardrails have to come in. In traditional gambling
24:07
environments, you can self -exclude, meaning
24:10
you basically sign up through the gaming commission
24:12
of your state to opt out of engaging with these
24:18
casino apps, sports books, and any app, whether
24:22
it be DraftKings, FanDuel, MGM, Caesars, Bet365,
24:26
they all get your information. And within 24
24:30
hours, you can no longer log into the app. You're
24:32
completely locked out and there's no way that
24:34
you can get around it, right? People find ways.
24:37
And of course, you have offshore betting and
24:39
things of this nature. But for the most part,
24:41
you've created a barrier, right? Within the sports
24:45
card hobby, within all of these gambling adjacent
24:47
environments, that type of regulation, that type
24:51
of oversight does not exist. You can't self -exclude
24:54
from Whatnot or Fanatics, right? And so we encourage
24:58
people to build systems around themselves that
25:00
just make it easier to stay aligned with their
25:03
goals and harder to act. when emotions start
25:08
to take over, when you might get that urge or
25:10
something may trigger you. And so for some people,
25:12
that starts with simple accountability, right?
25:14
Like weekly peer support meetings that we host.
25:17
We just hosted our 54th last week. This Wednesday
25:20
will be our 55th. Check -ins with an accountability
25:23
partner. being part of a community where people
25:26
know your goals and can ask what you're doing.
25:29
You know, sometimes just knowing you're going
25:31
to talk about your week on Wednesday night can
25:35
completely change a decision you make on Tuesday
25:38
afternoon, right? Because you don't want to go
25:40
into that meeting saying, yeah, I relapsed. Yeah,
25:42
I went above and beyond my means. For others,
25:46
it involves identifying some of these triggers
25:49
and building coping mechanisms. If stress, boredom,
25:52
loneliness, anxiety, or frustration tend to lead
25:55
to spending, then we need alternative ways to
25:59
deal with those emotions before they turn into
26:01
purchases. You could do things like exercise,
26:04
social connection, mindfulness techniques, journaling,
26:08
these recovery meetings, therapy. There are other
26:11
hobbies that don't require you to spend money.
26:13
Whatever works for that individual. that still
26:15
is healthy, right? Because anything in excess
26:18
could lead to unhealthy patterns. Then there
26:21
are financial guardrails. Those are obviously
26:23
important. Some members create strict budgets.
26:26
Some remove stored payment methods from apps.
26:29
Some set spending limits. Some use separate bank
26:31
accounts. In more severe situations, people may
26:34
temporarily or permanently turn the finances
26:37
over to a spouse or a parent or a trusted friend
26:41
or a loved one while they regain stability and
26:44
rebuild that trust. Technology can help as well.
26:47
We've partnered with tools and resources like
26:49
Gamban. Gamban allows you to block access to
26:52
gambling platforms. And they've since added a
26:56
lot of these gambling adjacent apps since we've
27:00
partnered with them. We really act as a consultant.
27:03
in terms of like letting them know which apps
27:05
should be blocked there, right? And so these
27:07
website blockers, the app restrictions, all of
27:10
that can create additional friction. And sometimes
27:12
even adding a few extra steps between an impulse
27:15
and an action is enough to prevent a costly mistake.
27:18
It's all about creating space or creating a moment.
27:23
pause and just recalibrate, recenter yourself
27:26
before you actually proceed with the activity.
27:30
We also talk about environmental guardrails,
27:32
right? Like unfollowing certain accounts, leaving
27:35
group chats that might trigger spending, taking
27:38
a break from live streams. You know, if you're
27:40
in a group chat that's constantly talking about,
27:43
you know, the market or the hottest cards that
27:47
are coming out or the hottest athletes, which
27:49
directly are tied to the cards, right? Walking
27:52
away from that, might help the taking a break
27:54
from live streams. Obviously, same sort of idea
27:56
there. Just reducing exposure to content that
27:59
constantly encourages this type of behavior,
28:01
this type of purchasing. You can't always control
28:03
the urge, right? People who are recovering for
28:06
decades still get urges, right? Recovery is a
28:09
lifelong commitment. Nobody's ever healed or
28:11
fully recovered, but you can control how frequently
28:14
you're exposed to the thing that creates that
28:16
urge. So ultimately the goal isn't to control
28:19
people. It's to help people create a structure
28:22
that supports the version of themselves they
28:25
want to be. Most recovery isn't built on willpower
28:29
alone. It's built on systems, accountability,
28:31
awareness, and guardrails that make healthy decisions
28:35
easier when life starts to get challenging. I'm
28:39
really happy, Alyx, that you brought up urges
28:40
and the fact that, you know, I always talk about
28:42
this with people I work with, where it's like,
28:44
we're not trying, you know, we're not expecting
28:46
for urges to go away. That, you know, as far
28:48
as I'm concerned, that's not something we have
28:49
a lot of control over when it comes to not having
28:52
urges, right? But it's what, it's that idea,
28:53
I like how you put it, of allowing even just
28:56
a beat, allowing some space, right? One of my
28:58
favorite interventions or exercises is urge surfing
29:01
and urge surfing meditations, right? I was just
29:04
going to say, like, I can explain what that is,
29:06
but you already know. Urge surfing is one of
29:08
my favorite exercises because we get to go through
29:11
the trigger, the rise, the peak, and the fall,
29:15
but talk about why the fall is such a novel concept
29:20
to a lot of people who struggle with different
29:22
things like this because of the fact that we
29:24
usually, if we have a difficulty with whether
29:29
it be addiction or impulses and things like that,
29:32
we will give into the behavior. We know that
29:36
if we allow space between any time between the
29:39
trigger and the behavior itself, that urge will
29:44
eventually fade. It's just very difficult to
29:46
know that once we are at the peak of that. Every
29:49
single wave starts and it rises and eventually
29:53
hits a peak and they all crash, right? Yes. We
29:57
just have to find the best approach to make sure
30:00
that we can ride out that wave and not let it
30:02
smack us and knock us over. I'm curious. Nowadays,
30:07
I'm not on TikTok anymore, but I'm still on YouTube
30:10
and Instagram, and there's all the shorts and
30:12
reels and things. And my algorithm is certainly
30:15
showing me all the – now it's a lot of the card
30:18
shows, and it's the Pokemon and sports cards
30:21
and all that kind of stuff. And I think the thing
30:23
that's not surprising, but certainly potentially
30:27
– So I'm going to I'm curious. I'm going to be
30:31
curious your thoughts on this. But maybe troubling
30:32
in a sense is the fact that almost not everybody.
30:36
And again, this is just what I'm seeing on social
30:37
media. But there is so there are so many. The
30:41
youth is such a highly represented. piece of
30:45
this community, these communities and these these
30:48
spaces of hobbies and collecting and breaks.
30:51
It's a lot of very, very not just like not just
30:53
teenagers, but but like like young children that
30:57
are that seem to be engaging with oftentimes
30:59
with their parents present. We can sort of talk
31:01
about that. But I'm curious from from what you've
31:03
seen, how much you know, what are the sort of
31:07
demographics you said earlier on that you've
31:09
seen everybody kind of, you know, there's no
31:11
one that that that can everybody in some way
31:15
can be, can find some challenges with this, but
31:18
tell me a little bit about your experience just
31:19
with what you've seen from, from that aspect,
31:21
from some of the ages of people involved. Yeah.
31:24
So children specifically are the most impressionable
31:28
and vulnerable individuals in these systems because
31:33
they look up to their favorite influencer, their
31:36
favorite hobby celebrity, their favorite athlete.
31:39
Right. And they, absorb everything information
31:43
like a sponge right and so the children you know
31:48
the next generation is really what we have to
31:51
look out for right especially as they just have
31:53
more and more access to technology and to these
31:58
systems and another layer to that is the parents
32:01
right the parents just see their kid engaging
32:04
with pokemon or sports cards and they just automatically
32:07
assume oh my kid is just doing what every other
32:09
kid has ever done But that's not necessarily
32:13
the case with everything we just talked about.
32:15
And so it's really important that we're not just
32:17
only educating the individuals that are directly
32:20
involved with the activity, but also that degree
32:23
of separation, the people around that person,
32:27
whether it be a parent, a sibling, a loved one,
32:30
a spouse, a colleague, a friend. And another
32:33
area that doesn't get talked about enough that
32:34
you just brought up is the role that the algorithms
32:36
play in shaping behavior. 20 years ago, if you
32:39
wanted to engage with a hobby, you generally
32:41
had to seek it out. Today, the hobbies seek you
32:44
out, right? The moment you watch a few videos,
32:47
join a live stream, maybe Google search your
32:50
favorite player, buy a card on eBay or interact
32:53
with a piece of content, or even just say a word
32:56
out loud because your phone is always picking
32:58
up keywords with the microphone. These algorithms
33:01
begin learning exactly what captures your attention.
33:04
And from there, they're designed to give you
33:06
more of it. Again, this isn't unique to collecting.
33:09
Social media, sports betting, the gaming, the
33:12
crypto, the day trading, the e -commerce platforms,
33:15
they all use sophisticated targeting systems
33:18
to maximize engagement. And the longer you stay,
33:21
the more content you end up consuming. And the
33:23
more content you consume, the more likely you
33:25
are to spend money. And what concerns me is that
33:28
these systems are becoming increasingly precise.
33:31
Companies can target people based on demographics,
33:34
geography. Personal interests, behaviors, search
33:38
history, engagement patterns, purchasing habits.
33:42
If someone shows interest in a specific item
33:45
or category, they can quickly find themselves
33:48
just surrounded by that content. Let's say it's
33:53
breaking or sports cards. Suddenly, they're seeing
33:56
every product release show up on their feed.
33:58
They're seeing success stories. They're seeing
34:00
the highlight reels, all the big hits. They don't
34:02
see any of the misses. They only see the big
34:03
hits because that's what the influencers, that's
34:05
what the breakers are going to showcase to drive
34:08
engagement, right? They're seeing promotions.
34:10
They're seeing invitations to participate. So
34:13
the danger isn't necessarily a single ad or a
34:16
single video. It's the cumulative effect of being
34:20
immersed in an environment that constantly reinforces
34:22
one message. Buy more. Don't miss out. And again,
34:27
young people are especially vulnerable because
34:30
many of them have never known a world without
34:32
these algorithms. They aren't just seeing advertisements.
34:35
They're receiving highly personalized streams
34:38
of content designed to keep them engaged for
34:41
as long as humanly possible. A teenager might
34:43
start by watching card openings on YouTube. Then
34:46
the algorithm serves them breaking content. Yeah.
34:49
And marketplace content. Then high -end flips.
34:52
Then influencers showing six -figure collections.
34:55
And before they even know it, the entire feed
34:57
begins creating a distorted perception of what's
35:00
normal. And we call that survivorship bias. Suddenly
35:03
spending thousands of dollars on collectibles,
35:05
entering breaks every night, or constantly chasing
35:08
the next release, that all starts to feel commonplace
35:11
because that's all they're seeing. And that's
35:14
where awareness is just so critical. The algorithm
35:17
isn't asking, is this healthy for the person?
35:20
It's asking, what's most likely to keep this
35:23
person engaged? And the reality is that attention
35:26
has really become one of the most valuable commodities
35:28
in the world. Most platforms are competing for
35:31
it aggressively. And when that attention is directed
35:34
toward highly stimulating activities that involve
35:37
money, risk, rewards, scarcity, social validation,
35:41
the potential for harm increases significantly
35:45
for vulnerable individuals like children. And
35:48
that's why we spend so much time teaching people
35:50
to understand not only their own behavior but
35:53
also the systems that are influencing that behavior.
35:55
It's hard to make informed decisions when you
35:57
don't realize you're being nudged. Every single
36:00
step of the way. So, right. Short answer to your
36:03
question. That was sort of the long winded answer.
36:05
We are seeing people come from every corner of
36:08
the world, right? Like every age, every demographic
36:11
men and women, people are being affected across
36:15
the board. It doesn't discriminate as, as my,
36:18
as my pal, Jimmy says, it doesn't discriminate.
36:21
You know, There's this component that I'm really
36:26
curious about because one of the things that
36:28
Collectors MD does is you guys have sort of partnerships
36:31
with various, with some of these content creators,
36:35
with some of these influencers, people in the
36:37
space itself, these shops. And I wanted to ask
36:40
you about that because, first of all, I guess
36:43
I'll just sort of start out. What does that sort
36:44
of look like when you will partner with or when
36:47
you will sort of? you know, form a relationship
36:51
with the people that are in this space? Yeah.
36:54
So one of our core messages at Collectors MD is
36:57
our mantra of rip responsibly. And so it's a
37:01
pretty simple mindset, right? Just engage responsibly,
37:06
just like you would encourage in a traditional
37:08
gambling environment. But it's really our way
37:11
of encouraging people to engage with the hobby
37:13
intentionally instead of impulsively. And the
37:16
reality is that most people aren't going to stop
37:18
collecting. Most people don't need to stop collecting.
37:21
Most people simply need tools, awareness, boundaries,
37:24
and support so they can participate in a way
37:27
that aligns with their goals, values, finances,
37:30
boundaries, overall well -being. And that's what
37:34
rip responsibly means. It means understanding
37:36
your budget before you enter a break. It means
37:38
recognizing when you're chasing as opposed to
37:41
collecting. It means knowing your triggers and
37:43
your urges. It means being honest with yourself
37:45
about whether you're engaging because you're
37:48
enjoying the hobby or because you're just trying
37:50
to escape stress or loneliness or boredom or
37:53
difficult emotions or just a moment of weakness.
37:56
So it's about creating a culture where responsibility
37:58
is viewed as a strength as opposed to something
38:02
that takes away from the fun. And so the reason
38:05
why we partner with hobby brands specifically,
38:08
and people are often surprised when they see
38:10
us partnering with hobby brands because they
38:12
just assume our recovery organizations should
38:14
avoid the industry altogether. Our view is actually
38:17
the contrary, right? You can't create meaningful
38:20
change from the outside while refusing to engage
38:23
with the people on the inside. We don't believe
38:26
the hobby or the hobby brands or the breakers
38:29
are the enemy. We don't believe collectors are
38:32
the enemy. We don't believe card shops or manufacturers
38:35
or marketplaces or influencers are the enemy.
38:38
The vast majority of people participating in
38:40
this space are doing so because they genuinely
38:43
love collecting. What we're trying to do is help
38:46
create a healthier ecosystem for everyone. And
38:49
so that's why we partner with hobby brands that
38:51
share our values. Those partnerships allow us
38:54
to bring responsible collecting conversations
38:56
directly into the places where collectors already
38:59
spend their time. So you wouldn't put a disclaimer
39:05
or a warning sign or a Rip Responsibly badge
39:07
in a grocery store, right? You'd put it in a
39:10
casino environment or you'd put it in a break
39:13
room, right? We need to partner with the folks
39:16
on the inside in order to reach where the collectors
39:19
are. And so the easiest comparison, again, is
39:23
the gambling industry. Most responsible gambling
39:24
organizations are working with casinos and sportsbooks.
39:28
They help educate them. They encourage best practices.
39:31
They create resources. They advocate for consumer
39:33
protections. And so we see our role in a similar
39:37
capacity. If we want to reduce harm, increase
39:40
awareness and provide real support to people,
39:42
we have to be willing to have conversations with.
39:46
the industry leaders, with the collectors, with
39:48
the breakers, with the influencers, with the
39:51
conglomerates of the space, because real change
39:54
happens when everybody has a seat at the table.
39:57
And so ultimately the goal isn't to shrink the
39:59
hobby or cancel collecting or tell people they
40:03
can't have fun. The goal is just to make the
40:05
experience. healthier and more sustainable, right?
40:08
Because a healthy hobby means better informed
40:10
collectors. It means people staying within the
40:13
environment and staying within their means, not
40:15
just getting rinsed and then walking away after
40:19
their first experience. It means recognizing
40:21
warning signs earlier. It means reducing stigma
40:24
around asking for help. It means creating pathways
40:28
for support before someone's life, finances,
40:30
or relationships begin to unravel. So that's
40:33
why we're partnering with not just recovery organizations,
40:35
but also with hobby brands. Not because we agree
40:37
with everything they do or everything they say,
40:40
but because we believe education, awareness,
40:43
and responsible engagement belong inside the
40:45
hobby, not outside of it. So the hobby, you know,
40:48
it's going to get stronger when the people participating
40:51
in it are healthier. Is there anything that when
40:57
it comes to the content creators or the hobby
41:00
companies themselves, are there things that you've
41:03
seen that, I guess, this might be a short list
41:09
of things, this might be one or two things, I
41:10
don't know if there's anything at all, but is
41:12
there anything that you see that's sort of a
41:13
pattern that some of these places or people will
41:16
do that if you were going to like... that they
41:19
maybe don't do, like in terms of some of the
41:20
approaches or the ways that they communicate?
41:22
Are there like some simple things that you'd
41:24
say, all right, maybe with all these other things
41:26
are okay, but if we were going to like nitpick,
41:29
not even nitpick, if we were going to call it
41:30
a couple of things that might be sort of enabling
41:34
some of the problematic components, we would
41:36
try to encourage to do without, I guess, if that
41:39
makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this exists
41:42
across the board, but really it's the breaking
41:45
environment where we're seeing most of the harm
41:48
happening, right? Because for breakers specifically,
41:50
I think the conversation is less about what are
41:53
they doing wrong and more about recognizing the
41:55
influence that they have. You know, whether they
41:58
realize it or not, breakers have become some
42:00
of the most influential people in the hobby.
42:03
Yeah. Many collectors spend more time watching
42:05
their favorite breaker than they do their favorite
42:08
TV show, right? Right. And that influence comes
42:11
with responsibility. And so things I'd love to
42:13
see more of, you know, normalizing budgets and
42:16
limits. I'd love to hear more breakers occasionally
42:18
say things like, hey, guys, you know, don't chase.
42:21
If you miss this one, there will be another break
42:24
tomorrow or next week instead of just, you know,
42:27
saying, all right, we're running it back. Start
42:29
bidding. right those simple statements carry
42:31
a lot of weight um i think celebrating collecting
42:34
instead of just the monster hits and the monetary
42:36
value the hobby can't just be about like the
42:40
one of ones and the super fractures and the victor
42:43
women yama and cooper flag and you know all the
42:45
hottest players most collectors aren't experiencing
42:48
that reality so highlighting meaningful collections
42:51
personal stories smaller wins helps create and
42:56
reinforce healthier expectations I think being
43:00
mindful about language is really important too.
43:02
Phrases like run it back, you're due, one more,
43:06
we got to hit eventually, or this case is loaded.
43:09
All of those things can unintentionally mirror
43:11
language often seen in gambling environments,
43:14
right? And then also recognizing. vulnerable
43:17
viewers like most viewers are fine okay but some
43:20
aren't and the challenge is that you never know
43:22
who's watching from the other side of the screen
43:24
it could be someone who just lost their job someone
43:28
who's struggling financially someone hiding purchases
43:30
from their loved ones or someone in recovery
43:32
and then you know things i'd like to see less
43:36
of and this goes back to your question about
43:38
the patterns we see over glorifying the huge
43:40
wins right the hobby naturally celebrates just
43:43
all the big hits even like Up to the top. Like
43:46
you see Topps and Fanatics. I was going to say
43:48
top. They post like the product hits all the
43:51
time because that's what, you know, sells. That's
43:53
what makes the product marketable. But if all
43:55
people ever see are five, six figure cards and
43:58
screaming reactions, they can start believing
44:01
that those outcomes are much more common than
44:03
they really are. Right. The manufactured urgency
44:07
is. at an all -time high right everything doesn't
44:11
need to be the biggest break ever the last chance
44:14
ever the greatest product of all time right how
44:18
many times have you heard like a breaker or a
44:20
hobby shop or an influencer say this is the product
44:23
of the century this is the product of the century
44:25
i'm like relax right this constant urgency wears
44:29
people down and it creates pressure that leads
44:31
to impulsive decisions remember like your doom
44:34
mentality This is probably the biggest one. The
44:37
idea that because someone missed 10 times, they're
44:39
somehow closer to hitting on the 11th. That's
44:42
not how probability works, but it's a very easy
44:44
mindset to fall into. And that all ties back
44:47
to the concept of a near miss in traditional
44:49
gambling environments. You know, the truth is,
44:51
I don't think most breakers wake up trying to
44:54
hurt people. Most are just short entrepreneurs,
44:57
they're entertainers, they're collectors who
44:59
genuinely love the hobby. The issue is that breaking
45:01
has become a highly sophisticated entertainment
45:04
product that combines money, randomness, community,
45:08
social validation, excitement, all these things
45:11
that become a really, really powerful combination,
45:14
right? So my ideal outcome, my hope is that,
45:17
you know, It's not that breakers would stop breaking.
45:21
That's not realistic. It's that the industry
45:23
continues evolving toward a culture where this
45:26
excitement and the responsibility can coexist.
45:29
You can create great entertainment. You can build
45:32
a successful business. And you can still occasionally
45:35
remind people to stay within their means, to
45:37
rip responsibly, and to prioritize their well
45:40
-being. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
45:43
So, Alyx, I think that's why what Collectors MD
45:45
is doing is so critical in partnering and actually
45:47
working with the hobby itself. Because if you
45:53
don't do that, I don't know how, like, I think
45:55
that you're giving yourself, generally yourself,
45:57
no chance to move the needle in any direction
46:00
because you're going right to the sources in
46:03
a lot of ways. I have just two more questions
46:07
for you, Alyx. Again, I really appreciate, so
46:10
much appreciate you taking the time today to
46:12
chat here on their own drum. The first question
46:16
is around several years ago, I spoke to Dr. Shane
46:21
Krause, who's one of the leading researchers
46:23
in compulsive gambling. He's out of Nevada. And
46:27
he was telling me about how the reason that he
46:31
really encourages a lot of the safeguards around
46:33
gambling specifically was because that like anything
46:36
if if there's if those safeguards don't come
46:39
up you know everyone's gonna be making their
46:40
money but then eventually there will be some
46:42
kind of uh generally government oversight you
46:44
know that will still step in and he goes nobody
46:46
generally wants that um right i'm curious from
46:49
what you've seen in some of the conversations
46:51
that you've had uh you know we still haven't
46:55
seen a ton of that yet in the in the gambling
46:57
space but could you see a point in time where
47:00
when it comes to and we could even talk about
47:03
like the the the hobby in general i mean could
47:05
you see a point in time where with some of the
47:07
the harm that it may cause over over again this
47:10
we talked about being a tip of the iceberg kind
47:12
of stuff earlier where this is something where
47:15
we see some more regulations around yeah this
47:18
is something that has come up a ton I want to
47:21
make it known that we're not primarily focused
47:24
on regulation. We're not primarily focused on
47:26
reform because our jurisdiction is being on the
47:30
front lines, helping the people affected. It's
47:32
not our lane. We'll advocate for it and we'll
47:35
work with partners who are handling that line
47:38
of work, but we are not a watchdog organization.
47:41
We're not here to call out. individuals or companies
47:44
or invite legislators or outside governing bodies
47:50
to come in and shake things up. We just want
47:52
to help people who are being affected. With that
47:55
being said, one of the realities of the hobby
47:57
today is that it's largely self -regulated or
48:00
lack thereof. When you compare it to industries
48:03
like gambling, financial services, alcohol, cigarettes,
48:08
pharmaceuticals even, there are very few formal
48:12
guardrails in the hobby, right? There are no
48:14
responsible collecting standards. There are no
48:16
industry wide best practices around consumer
48:19
protection. There are no requirements around
48:21
education or awareness or harm prevention. Most
48:24
companies are essentially left to decide for
48:26
themselves where those lines should be drawn.
48:28
And at the same time, I don't think people in
48:30
the hobby want heavy handed government oversight,
48:34
right? Most collectors, businesses, breakers,
48:37
hobby leaders would prefer solutions that came
48:39
from within the industry rather than being imposed
48:42
from the outside, which is where we're headed
48:44
if we don't see some element of change. And so
48:47
that's why I often say we have a choice. We can
48:50
either acknowledge that some people are being
48:51
harmed and proactively create responsible standards
48:53
ourselves. Or we can continue pretending the
48:56
problem doesn't exist until these regulators,
48:59
lawmakers, consumer advocates, legislators, and
49:03
media eventually force the conversations upon
49:06
us. History shows that industries that fail to
49:09
self -regulate often end up being regulated by
49:12
someone else. Almost every single time. Yeah.
49:15
So the reality is that the hobby has become a
49:17
multi, multi -billion dollar ecosystem. The technology
49:21
is more sophisticated. The products are... at
49:24
an all -time high in terms of how expensive they
49:26
are. I'm talking about wax prices and singles.
49:29
The purchasing environments are faster than ever.
49:31
The audiences are as big as they've ever been.
49:35
The psychological mechanisms are more powerful.
49:38
than they've ever been and so with that growth
49:40
comes a form a sense of responsibility nobody
49:43
is suggesting that we eliminate breaking like
49:45
i said before nobody is suggesting we eliminate
49:47
collecting nobody is suggesting that we eliminate
49:50
excitement the question is simply what reasonable
49:52
steps can we take to better educate and protect
49:55
consumers while preserving everything people
49:59
love about the hobby. And so that's where this
50:01
petition comes into play. We created a national
50:03
call to action in the form of a petition. It's
50:07
not about attacking the hobby. It's not about
50:08
blaming companies. It's not about demanding regulation.
50:11
It's a call for recognition. It's asking the
50:13
industry to acknowledge that these issues exist
50:16
and to begin investing in things like education,
50:19
awareness, prevention, research, support, resources.
50:24
Today, if someone develops a gambling problem,
50:27
there are organizations, right? There are hotlines.
50:30
There are treatment providers, support groups,
50:33
educational materials, funding mechanisms, plenty.
50:37
It's an overabundance, right? Because we as a
50:41
society recognize that gambling can be harmful.
50:43
If someone develops a problem through collecting
50:45
or breaking or other gambling adjacent activities,
50:48
there's almost nothing. And so that's the gap
50:51
we're trying to address, right? So our vision,
50:53
our hope is that the hobby leaders, the marketplaces,
50:57
the breakers, the grading companies, the manufacturers,
50:59
the influencers, all these stakeholders can come
51:02
together and recognize that supporting consumer
51:05
well -being isn't bad for business. In many ways,
51:08
it's good for business. Healthy collectors will
51:11
stay in the hobby longer. You'll create a more
51:13
sustainable relationship with your customers,
51:16
right? they also end up enjoying the hobby more.
51:20
You're able to build a stronger community. They
51:22
introduce their friends and their families into
51:24
the hobby. So the petition is really an invitation
51:27
to start the conversation before someone else
51:30
starts it for us. Because if the industry can
51:32
demonstrate that it's capable of taking these
51:36
issues seriously, right, and into their own hands
51:39
and creating their own guardrails and funding
51:41
resources and promoting responsible engagement,
51:43
there's a much better chance that solutions come
51:46
from within the industry rather than from outside
51:49
entities that may not fully understand it and
51:52
come in and just completely dismantle it, completely
51:55
shake everything up. So if you want to check
51:59
out that petition, we've had almost 100 signatures
52:02
to date. We launched it last month. You can go
52:04
to our website and under news and announcements,
52:07
I believe it is currently the second article
52:10
I can send you the link to. It's called a national
52:11
call to action. A national call to action. When
52:15
we release the episode, we're going to get that
52:18
out to everybody to go sign and take a look at.
52:21
Alyx, the last question I have for you, I think
52:24
actually I could answer part of it myself and
52:26
tell people to go to the website because your
52:28
website is awesome. It has a ton of resources,
52:30
a ton of content on there. But the question is
52:33
really just around for people that are listening
52:35
to this episode and whether it be family members,
52:38
friends, loved ones, people that might be thinking
52:42
whether like, whether it's something that, that,
52:44
that they might be struggling with, or if they
52:47
know, let's just say that they, they, a loved
52:49
one of theirs is, is into collecting is in any
52:52
way, or is into, to, to pack breaks or, or, or
52:55
Pokemon cards, whatever the case is, what do
52:57
you, what would you recommend or encourage people
53:01
to do if they, if not, even if they suspect that
53:03
somebody may have an, you know, be in like a
53:07
harmful relationship with, with the hobbies and
53:10
collecting. But what would you encourage in terms
53:12
of, like you said, starting the conversation,
53:13
but what do you usually tell people about if,
53:15
if somebody wants to, you know, talk to a loved
53:18
one about, Hey, you know, what's your relationship
53:20
like with, with this? Yeah. I mean, I think the
53:22
first thing is don't. immediately jump to labels
53:25
right don't accuse someone of being addicted
53:27
don't tell them that they have a problem just
53:30
because you heard you know on one of our podcast
53:32
episodes that somebody else has a problem right
53:35
everybody's journey is different everybody's
53:37
story is different everybody responds to certain
53:40
things in their own ways most people end up becoming
53:43
defensive when they feel like they're under attack
53:45
instead i think it's important to just be curious
53:50
and lead with concern you know you could ask
53:52
questions like how are you feeling about you
53:55
know your spending lately do you feel like you're
53:57
still enjoying this hobby do you feel like you're
53:59
in control of it those conversations tend to
54:03
be much more productive than telling someone
54:05
what they're doing wrong and forcing them into
54:08
an environment or a space they might not want
54:11
to be in people need to be motivated in order
54:14
to get real help if you're not motivated you're
54:18
most likely going to continue the behavior and
54:20
then there are certain signs that we say to look
54:22
out for right there are warning signs that often
54:25
are the same ones we see in many other compulsive
54:28
behaviors. And these are questions that we generally
54:31
ask ourselves as part of our recovery guide.
54:33
Questions like, are they spending money they
54:36
can't afford? Are they hiding purchases? Are
54:38
they becoming secretive? Are they neglecting
54:40
responsibilities? Are they borrowing money? Are
54:42
they constantly talking about making back losses
54:45
or chasing losses? Are relationships being impacted?
54:49
Is their mood becoming tied to whatever the hobby
54:52
is? When those things start showing up consistently,
54:55
it's worth paying attention to. It's really important
54:58
to don't shame anyone, right? Shame usually drives
55:01
people deeper into secrecy. Most people already
55:03
know something isn't right. They don't need someone
55:06
telling them that they're being irresponsible.
55:08
They need someone who is willing to listen without
55:10
judgment, right? And so what I would do, whether
55:14
you're a family member, a friend, a spouse that
55:18
might be identifying these issues, or if it's
55:20
happening to you directly, seek support. Let
55:23
them know. That they're not alone. They're not
55:25
in isolation. We have, like you said, an abundance
55:29
of tools and resources that you can find on our
55:32
website, collectorsmd .com. You can share stories.
55:35
You can encourage conversation. We have over
55:37
50 podcast episodes now. Different people, stories,
55:41
and journeys. Sometimes simply hearing, I've
55:43
noticed you seem stressed and I care about you,
55:46
can open a door that someone has been afraid
55:48
to walk through for a long time. And then also
55:50
hearing somebody else. share a similar story,
55:53
whether it be on a podcast episode or a weekly
55:55
meeting can make a world of a difference. And
55:58
so if you're a person listening and wondering
56:00
about yourself, one question I often ask is if
56:03
you stripped away the labels and focused only
56:05
on consequences. what would the picture look
56:08
like, right? Is this actively improving your
56:11
life or making it harder? Is it bringing you
56:13
joy or creating stress? Is it aligned with your
56:15
values, your finances, your relationships, your
56:18
goals? These questions are often more revealing
56:21
than debating whether someone technically has
56:24
a problem. And the most important thing that
56:27
I want people to know is that you don't have
56:29
to wait until things completely fall apart to
56:31
ask for help. Most people think support is only
56:34
for people who have hit rock bottom. That's simply
56:37
not true. The earlier someone starts asking questions
56:40
and seeking support and building awareness, the
56:43
easier it is to make adjustments before significant
56:46
damage does end up occurring. And so if somebody
56:49
feels off. Trust that feeling. You don't have
56:52
to figure it out alone. Reach out to us. We can
56:55
help you walk that path. And we have dozens of
56:58
partners within the recovery organization. We
57:01
have a fully fleshed out referral network. We
57:04
can provide you with layers of professional support,
57:07
whether that be a treatment center, one -on -one
57:09
counseling, finance or legal matters. We can
57:13
point you in the right direction depending on
57:14
what your journey looks like. So just know that
57:16
you're not alone and that help does exist. Alyx
57:20
Effron, I can't thank you enough for coming on
57:22
the show today and for the work that you do.
57:24
I'm going to just hit this one more time. And
57:26
the fact that for the listeners of this show,
57:30
you know, I've been, you know, going back to
57:33
when I was in grad school for mental health counseling,
57:35
I've been in a lot of different spaces now, whether
57:38
it be workshop, classrooms, all these different
57:39
things. And I've asked the question in almost
57:41
all of these spaces, including gambling spaces,
57:44
if something like what Collectors MD. does exist.
57:48
I've asked this for years. And the question to
57:50
people that are leaders or experts in the field
57:54
of recovery and gambling, all this kind of stuff.
57:57
And the question, the answer that I get. almost,
58:00
I will say 100 % of the time is, that's a really
58:03
good question. No, not to my knowledge. And now
58:07
I am extremely happy to be able to have an answer
58:10
to that question with Collectors MD. I will certainly
58:13
be utilizing Collectors MD as a resource, as a
58:16
referral source, because again, it's an excellent
58:18
website. It's an excellent organization. I think
58:20
the website really represents it incredibly well
58:22
with, I think your word was, you hit it on the
58:23
head. It's an abundance of resources and continuously
58:26
growing every single day. So again, Alyx, I'm
58:29
so grateful for the work that you and your team
58:32
do at Collectors MD. And I can't thank you enough
58:34
for coming on their own drum today. Thank you
58:37
so much, Sam. Really appreciate the support.
58:39
And we'll definitely stay in touch. I'm looking
58:42
forward to maybe having you on my podcast down
58:45
the road. Absolutely. Looking forward to it.
58:47
Thank you, Alyx. Awesome. Thanks, Sam. Thank
58:49
you again to the team at their own drum. That
58:51
team consists of John Marikoski, Sam Peters,
58:54
Alex Foster, and Max Kimble. And thank you again
58:57
to Alyx for joining the show. We will provide
58:59
links to all the resources for Collectors MD when
59:01
we release this episode. Please take a look.
59:04
Please sign the petition. And again, thank you
59:06
so much to Alyx for the work that he does. As
59:09
always, thank you to the listener for tuning
59:11
into their own drum. We have so many great episodes
59:14
coming up on the horizon. Once again, getting
59:16
back to our schedule of a release every two weeks,
59:19
a new episode. Can't thank you enough for tuning
59:21
in. Y 'all take care of yourselves as always
59:24
for their own drum. I'm your host, Sam Sherman.
59:26
Take care.