Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Jenna Lyons & Erin Lichy on Style, Shabbat, and Surviving Real Housewives

Transcript

Jenna Lyons & Erin Lichy on Style, Shabbat, and Surviving Real Housewives · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:03
Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
0:05
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
0:11
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
0:16
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
0:19
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
0:22
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
0:28
Speaker 1: And who says so? Come curious, dig deep, and join
0:33
Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. There are moments
0:40
Speaker 1: in life when who we are or who we're becoming
0:44
Speaker 1: starts to come into sharper focus. Sometimes it happens quietly,
0:49
Speaker 1: in the choices we make when no one is watching
0:52
Speaker 1: and for a small group of people. Sometimes that shift
0:54
Speaker 1: happens in public, under the scrutiny of strangers in rooms
0:58
Speaker 1: they never expected to be in, or through a career
1:01
Speaker 1: that takes on a life of its own. Our guests
1:04
Speaker 1: today are Real Housewives of New York stars Jenna Lyons
1:08
Speaker 1: and Aaron LEECHI. Of course, if you're a Bravo Hollick,
1:14
Speaker 1: you know Jenna recently revealed that she's leaving the show
1:17
Speaker 1: full disclosure, We filmed this episode before she made that announcement.
1:20
Speaker 1: So you'll notice that there's no mention of that in there,
1:23
Speaker 1: but if you listen closely to how Jenna speaks, it
1:25
Speaker 1: kind of makes perfect sense that she's setting up for
1:28
Speaker 1: her next big chapter. Both Jenna and Aarin have explored
1:31
Speaker 1: what it means to evolve in circumstances privately and very
1:35
Speaker 1: very publicly, so in this interview, Jenna and Aaron talk
1:39
Speaker 1: about ambition, identity, being misunderstood, and the excruciating and sometimes
1:46
Speaker 1: necessary heartbreak of letting go of something that you've built.
1:50
Speaker 1: We also touch on building community, which Aarin knows all about.
1:54
Speaker 1: She's the hostess with the mostess type, hosting weekly Shabbat
1:57
Speaker 1: dinners for her family, which she writes about in her
1:59
Speaker 1: new book, She's a Host, an unbuttoned cookbook for elegant entertaining.
2:04
Speaker 1: I've been to one of her dinner parties, and I
2:06
Speaker 1: can tell you firsthand she's an expert. It's actually where
2:10
Speaker 1: I met Jenna a few nights before we recorded this episode.
2:13
Speaker 1: Picture this tables, layered with soft linens and candlelight, food
2:18
Speaker 1: that feels both elevated and comforting. The title of her book,
2:21
Speaker 1: She's a Host, was etched in Flower on the Sour
2:24
Speaker 1: dough bread. The music was low enough for real conversation,
2:28
Speaker 1: and everything was impossibly relaxed yet unmistakably considered. Aaron moves
2:34
Speaker 1: through the room the way only great hosts do, present
2:37
Speaker 1: without hovering. You feel taken care of without ever feeling managed.
2:41
Speaker 1: You know, and while our housewives know a lot about
2:45
Speaker 1: fashion and fame, we're circling a different set of questions
2:49
Speaker 1: in today's episode, questions like what does belonging really mean?
2:52
Speaker 1: How do you reinvent yourself personally and professionally, and where
2:57
Speaker 1: do you find the courage to be yourself in a
2:59
Speaker 1: world that's hell bent on convincing you to conform. It's
3:03
Speaker 1: time to question everything with Jenna Alliance and Aaron Lee Chee. Okay,
3:14
Speaker 1: I have a random question before we really start our interview,
3:17
Speaker 1: which is we're in New York, it's raining, and you
3:19
Speaker 1: guys always look good. I don't understand, coming from La
3:23
Speaker 1: how people look good in New York because your hair,
3:26
Speaker 1: you can't wear nice shoes, Like everything becomes a mess.
3:30
Speaker 2: We're just used to it, like it's just dirty and
3:32
Speaker 2: disgusting in New York half the time.
3:34
Speaker 3: So I mean, I also think there's probably plenty of
3:36
Speaker 3: moments where it's not coming together and you have maybe
3:39
Speaker 3: not seen them.
3:39
Speaker 2: But we wear a lot of denim and a lot
3:41
Speaker 2: of boots, and that's what you need when it's raining.
3:43
Speaker 3: She's wearing boots, I'm wearing shoes I don't care about.
3:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, Like there's no sexes this weather.
3:49
Speaker 3: It's also like you choose your moments for uber and
3:52
Speaker 3: walking right totally.
3:54
Speaker 2: I Ubert and I still was like, I'm also on
3:56
Speaker 2: a tear and I'm losing my voice and like this
3:59
Speaker 2: is the end of it.
4:00
Speaker 1: You're on a tear because you just launched a cook
4:02
Speaker 1: I just launched call. She's a host that's right behind you.
4:05
Speaker 1: I love that the recipes in there mean so much
4:07
Speaker 1: to you, so much. You are a great cook. I'm
4:10
Speaker 1: sure you had tons of recipes to sort through. How
4:12
Speaker 1: are you deciding.
4:13
Speaker 2: I wanted to include my go to It's like the
4:15
Speaker 2: things that I actually make often, so that's kind of
4:17
Speaker 2: how I just picked it. There are some other ones
4:20
Speaker 2: that are, you know, less common, like to beat, which
4:23
Speaker 2: is like beats with meatballs. I don't make that all
4:25
Speaker 2: the time because it takes a really long time. But
4:28
Speaker 2: most of the stuff in there I'm making like at
4:30
Speaker 2: least a couple times a year.
4:32
Speaker 1: Who did you learn how to cook from.
4:34
Speaker 2: My grandmother's but mostly my maternal grandmother. She literally lived
4:38
Speaker 2: in the kitchen, like I always tell this story. When
4:40
Speaker 2: she was like in her nineties, she lived in a
4:42
Speaker 2: house in Queen's on Jewel Avenue, and she couldn't keep
4:46
Speaker 2: going up and down the stairs because her room was
4:47
Speaker 2: on the second floor. So she literally had this like
4:49
Speaker 2: small room off the kitchen that she put a bed in,
4:52
Speaker 2: and that's where she lived for like the last four
4:54
Speaker 2: or five years of her life in the kitchen. Where
4:56
Speaker 2: was this here New Queens in Queen's. Yeah, where my
4:58
Speaker 2: mom grew up in the house my life grew up.
5:00
Speaker 2: So she just loved it. Wasn't that she loved, That's
5:04
Speaker 2: just what she did. Like she was just a big
5:06
Speaker 2: grandma that cooked all the time.
5:09
Speaker 3: It is such a way to bring joy though, like
5:10
Speaker 3: a way to connect, such a way I wish I
5:13
Speaker 3: had that. I did not have any cooking in my
5:15
Speaker 3: house growing.
5:15
Speaker 2: I know my mom.
5:17
Speaker 3: She was a single mom and she's a piano teacher,
5:20
Speaker 3: so her workday started when the kids came home from school.
5:24
Speaker 3: So as soon as I came home from school, I
5:26
Speaker 3: had to be in my room quite like, we couldn't
5:28
Speaker 3: make any noise, and she couldn't be in the kitchen
5:30
Speaker 3: because she was teaching, and she would teach until like
5:32
Speaker 3: eight o'clock. So Lean cuisine was really cisy, I do.
5:35
Speaker 2: I used to like it.
5:36
Speaker 3: I had a lot of it. I know there's a
5:37
Speaker 3: tunicastrole that might go to which is so discussing?
5:40
Speaker 1: Okay, serious question. What was your relationship to food? Like?
5:43
Speaker 3: Because of that, I didn't realize how strange a relationship
5:46
Speaker 3: I had to food until I had a child. It
5:48
Speaker 3: wasn't like food wasn't in the house. It wasn't about
5:50
Speaker 3: rations or anything like, but it was just there wasn't
5:52
Speaker 3: food or snacks. We didn't have any of that stuff.
5:54
Speaker 3: So I just never ate a lot and the food
5:58
Speaker 3: wasn't amazing. So with my brother and I like my brother,
6:01
Speaker 3: if you see, he's like a bean pole. And I
6:05
Speaker 3: grew up really thin, not like underfed, just like not
6:07
Speaker 3: interested because it wasn't good.
6:09
Speaker 2: It wasn't a thing.
6:10
Speaker 3: It wasn't like something exciting. I didn't really get into
6:12
Speaker 3: food until I moved to New York and started to
6:14
Speaker 3: experience the best food, the best food, and also a
6:17
Speaker 3: range of food like I didn't have that when I
6:19
Speaker 3: was growing up. We had pizza loaf. Is disgusting.
6:23
Speaker 2: What's pizza loaf?
6:24
Speaker 3: It would be macaroni with cheese and pasta sauce port
6:27
Speaker 3: over it and then put I've never even heard of
6:29
Speaker 3: Well that was I think my mother might have made
6:30
Speaker 3: it up.
6:30
Speaker 2: I don't really know pizza loaf. That's really funny. Yeah,
6:34
Speaker 2: I bet you could make that good.
6:35
Speaker 3: I'm sure it could be done beautifully, like mac and
6:37
Speaker 3: cheese can be done. It was like a version of
6:39
Speaker 3: mac and cheese.
6:39
Speaker 2: Try that.
6:42
Speaker 3: Any adventurous It's so interesting. If I had had schnitzel
6:46
Speaker 3: like you are growing up, I probably would have eaten
6:49
Speaker 3: a lot more.
6:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that.
6:51
Speaker 1: Even in Chicago, I wasn't really privy to all these
6:55
Speaker 1: different types of food. It wasn't until I started coming
6:57
Speaker 1: to New York that I ate Jamaican food and Brazilian food.
7:00
Speaker 1: But it's such a melting pocket, you know, I'm like
7:03
Speaker 1: starving so aarin. The subtitle on your book says Unbuttoned
7:08
Speaker 1: Cookbook for Elegant entertaining. What does unbuttoned mean in the
7:12
Speaker 1: context of hosting it means.
7:14
Speaker 2: That things don't have to be perfect to have a
7:16
Speaker 2: beautiful gathering, and that's really sort of the crux of
7:19
Speaker 2: the book. I feel like people get really nervous about hosting,
7:22
Speaker 2: and the more I'm on this tour, the more I
7:24
Speaker 2: hear that people will get nervous and they want things
7:26
Speaker 2: to be the right way and perfect this, that and
7:29
Speaker 2: the other. But it doesn't need to be that way,
7:31
Speaker 2: and it shouldn't be a reason that people don't get
7:34
Speaker 2: together or host or have people over. I feel like,
7:37
Speaker 2: you know, we should live life a little looser.
7:40
Speaker 3: I think the thing that I remember when I first
7:41
Speaker 3: met Erin is like she does shabot dinner every Friday.
7:45
Speaker 3: It's not possible for everything to be perfect every week,
7:47
Speaker 3: and it's family, and I think having that as part
7:50
Speaker 3: of a ritual, I think really does make it feel
7:53
Speaker 3: just easier and less precious and performance based. Whereas like
7:57
Speaker 3: it's a great point, feel I don't do it that often.
7:59
Speaker 3: So I'm like, if I'm gonna have people over for dinner,
8:00
Speaker 3: everything has to be perfect, and so then I don't
8:02
Speaker 3: ever do it because.
8:03
Speaker 2: You're a great host. Let's talk about her tablescape. Its
8:07
Speaker 2: just a tablescape sheeese, and you had Brandon cooking, see.
8:12
Speaker 3: But I was nervous and I had someone else cooking.
8:15
Speaker 2: Thank you.
8:16
Speaker 3: I would wish that I could actually have people over
8:19
Speaker 3: casually and say come over and be able to whip
8:21
Speaker 3: something up like you can. You and Cass have people
8:23
Speaker 3: over and like you, just we don't have dinner parties.
8:25
Speaker 2: Like I would.
8:26
Speaker 1: What's the barrier for you? Is it vulnerable?
8:28
Speaker 3: It's like I don't feel confident in the kitchen. I
8:31
Speaker 3: don't feel like I could actually make something that would
8:34
Speaker 3: feel good.
8:35
Speaker 2: It's a setup. I don't know. It's got to work.
8:37
Speaker 3: And I think it's having people in your home. I
8:40
Speaker 3: feel like a sense of responsibility. It is intimidating.
8:42
Speaker 1: You're a good guess, though, well, like you showed up
8:45
Speaker 1: to Aaron's early slash on time on top.
8:48
Speaker 2: I left, but then she left.
8:50
Speaker 1: That's okay, it's okay. We were wrapping up anyways. And
8:54
Speaker 1: I think there's qualities to being a good guess. I
8:57
Speaker 1: don't like when people like not gracious guests.
8:59
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree.
9:00
Speaker 1: What do you think it takes to be an inviting,
9:03
Speaker 1: warm host? What have you seen? Especially if somebody is
9:06
Speaker 1: a beginner, I think just.
9:07
Speaker 2: Being easy about it, honestly, like come sit, like have
9:12
Speaker 2: a snack, just you know, being easy about it, not
9:15
Speaker 2: being so rigid.
9:16
Speaker 1: You have that personality though, like I'm more like Jenna
9:18
Speaker 1: and I'm like I need everything perfect or I'm not
9:20
Speaker 1: doing it.
9:21
Speaker 2: I have that signed to me too, you know. But
9:24
Speaker 2: I think that that's a great point when you said
9:25
Speaker 2: about shabat. I really do, because it's like training. I'm
9:29
Speaker 2: like in boot camp every week you are.
9:30
Speaker 3: But I remember watching you and like I saw some
9:33
Speaker 3: of it on this show and I'd never been to one,
9:35
Speaker 3: but I could just see you moved through it quite
9:39
Speaker 3: easily and everyone understood what was happening. Everyone was there
9:43
Speaker 3: for the same reason. Everyone was there to just be
9:44
Speaker 3: there and celebrate and be family. I think that kind
9:46
Speaker 3: of paved the way for you to be's.
9:49
Speaker 2: I've never thought about it, it's so true. I think
9:52
Speaker 2: it's just because it's such common practice, and it's like
9:54
Speaker 2: people are just in and out and have these big
9:56
Speaker 2: dinners and it's just what we do every ready. It's
9:58
Speaker 2: just what we do.
9:59
Speaker 3: It's nice for the too, because I think they just
10:01
Speaker 3: come to expect love it. I'm going to sit with
10:03
Speaker 3: my family every Friday night, and that is not negotiable.
10:06
Speaker 3: And yeah, I feel like that's one thing I wish
10:08
Speaker 3: I had done better with my son, is like creating
10:11
Speaker 3: a ritual where it's like every week, at some point
10:13
Speaker 3: during the week, we have a dinner and you have
10:15
Speaker 3: to sit with us. You can't go out and hang
10:16
Speaker 3: out with your friends. And I didn't grow up with it,
10:18
Speaker 3: so I didn't create it, and I see it and
10:21
Speaker 3: it's really amazing.
10:23
Speaker 2: I think that's the real beauty of Shabbat. I really donah,
10:26
Speaker 2: because even when we were in high school, like when
10:28
Speaker 2: we all wanted to start going out and stuff, we
10:30
Speaker 2: knew that we had to be there for dinner and
10:32
Speaker 2: if we really wanted to go out after, like usually
10:34
Speaker 2: we were full and we would have wine with like
10:36
Speaker 2: our families, so we'd be like, okay, we're fine, like
10:38
Speaker 2: we don't actually want to go out, but it was
10:41
Speaker 2: just like we knew there was no day night like
10:43
Speaker 2: you have to be there for Shabbat.
10:45
Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about how our upbringings shape
10:48
Speaker 1: us more than we even know. Like, I think your
10:52
Speaker 1: family traditions have shaped so much of who you are
10:55
Speaker 1: in terms of cooking and hosting and even like the
10:59
Speaker 1: way that you curate your home. Do you feel like
11:02
Speaker 1: having a mom who was a piano teacher, Like are
11:04
Speaker 1: you musical at all? Like how did it shape you?
11:07
Speaker 3: My mom's on the spectrum, and so there wasn't a
11:09
Speaker 3: lot of intimacy with my mom. So I don't have
11:11
Speaker 3: anything that's sort of representative of what I grew up
11:14
Speaker 3: with other than the faults, which are like not being
11:17
Speaker 3: a good host feeling, you know, like those kinds of
11:19
Speaker 3: things that aren't you know, meaning an easy host maybe
11:23
Speaker 3: is better. It doesn't come naturally to me. And I
11:25
Speaker 3: think I played piano, but my mom couldn't teach me
11:28
Speaker 3: because it was well I did. I don't think I
11:30
Speaker 3: could do it anymore. Yeah, maybe I could remember like
11:34
Speaker 3: two songs, it was too hard because my mom couldn't
11:36
Speaker 3: teach me because she was so hard on me. So
11:38
Speaker 3: I ended up having another teacher who made these fucking
11:41
Speaker 3: incredible brownies that I will never forget. That's the one
11:44
Speaker 3: I give me. It's sweet and I'm happy, But I
11:47
Speaker 3: don't think I have a lot of the same like
11:49
Speaker 3: community and that way. It's also I didn't have a
11:51
Speaker 3: big family like see Aaron's family it's extended. There's sisters
11:54
Speaker 3: and brothers, and then there's you know, the kids coming
11:57
Speaker 3: into it. It's like a whole crew. And that's really
12:00
Speaker 3: think amazing.
12:00
Speaker 2: The other side of it, and this is something that
12:03
Speaker 2: I've realized recently. We touched upon it a little bit
12:06
Speaker 2: at the dinner, is that it's a lot, and so
12:08
Speaker 2: sometimes like my cup is so full and I don't
12:11
Speaker 2: even think to make time for myself. And I really
12:13
Speaker 2: learned this when I was dealing with grief and until
12:16
Speaker 2: my body was reacting to it, and you really do
12:20
Speaker 2: need to take time for yourself. And so like, it's
12:23
Speaker 2: great that I have this big family and all these things,
12:24
Speaker 2: and like I work a lot, and it's beautiful. I'm
12:27
Speaker 2: very grateful. I'm so happy that I have this life.
12:29
Speaker 2: But on the other side, if you don't take a moment,
12:33
Speaker 2: like I started meditating and journaling. Never in my life
12:37
Speaker 2: what I think that I would do such a thing
12:39
Speaker 2: like journaling. I was talking to Jeff Lewis about it
12:41
Speaker 2: and he was like, please don't tell people that I
12:44
Speaker 2: was cracking up. It's so not on brand for me.
12:50
Speaker 2: But it like it's helping because I'm able to like
12:53
Speaker 2: release this stuff. That I didn't even know was there. So,
12:57
Speaker 2: you know, as beautiful as it is, you have to
12:59
Speaker 2: remember yourself. You know, you really do like I am
13:02
Speaker 2: the most important person to me, and I forget that
13:04
Speaker 2: when I have all these other people to take care
13:06
Speaker 2: of all the time.
13:06
Speaker 3: It's like the thing they say on the airplane is
13:08
Speaker 3: like put your gas mess on first, because you can't
13:10
Speaker 3: help somebody if you're not breathing.
13:11
Speaker 2: So but you forget, at least I forget.
13:13
Speaker 3: Oh, for sure, when I had a big job, I
13:15
Speaker 3: would see it, and to your point, it would show
13:17
Speaker 3: up in ways that were like headaches or like my
13:19
Speaker 3: ankle swelling or things that were like I didn't even realize,
13:22
Speaker 3: And then when I looked at it, I was like,
13:23
Speaker 3: I actually haven't taken a night off, or I haven't
13:26
Speaker 3: had a good night sleep, or I haven't been like
13:28
Speaker 3: not trying to be on performance line like in months.
13:32
Speaker 3: It's at such a bay at you.
13:33
Speaker 1: For sure, you guys met when Ronie was rebooted for
13:49
Speaker 1: its fourteenth season, and one of the things I noticed
13:53
Speaker 1: is that you were both kind of reinventing at that time.
13:57
Speaker 1: Did the experience stack up to what you thought it
14:00
Speaker 1: would be or was it totally different the reinvention or
14:03
Speaker 1: the show.
14:03
Speaker 2: The show. I think the show's impact was great. I'll
14:07
Speaker 2: speak for myself, but I think for both of us,
14:09
Speaker 2: I think like the visibility and just like for me,
14:13
Speaker 2: I wasn't in the public eye you were, I really
14:15
Speaker 2: was not. So I went from like three thousand followers
14:18
Speaker 2: on Instagram in private to like having a full following
14:22
Speaker 2: was very like new for me. But I think that's
14:24
Speaker 2: been great and I feel good in this space. The
14:28
Speaker 2: show experience itself was challenging because of just certain personalities
14:33
Speaker 2: that were just hard. But I think like the impact
14:36
Speaker 2: of the show is great.
14:37
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it did help you reinvent in
14:40
Speaker 1: some ways?
14:40
Speaker 2: Totally? I mean my career really changed. I've always been
14:44
Speaker 2: a businesswoman, so like that wasn't going away. It was
14:46
Speaker 2: just the way in which I was doing business. Yeah,
14:49
Speaker 2: And I think what I realized was it's going to
14:52
Speaker 2: be really difficult to be on TV and be in
14:54
Speaker 2: the media and be in the service based industry. And
14:57
Speaker 2: I was an interior designer and I was selling real estate.
15:00
Speaker 2: I was like picking out screws and handle like I
15:03
Speaker 2: was very involved in any project. Now I still manage
15:06
Speaker 2: actually for clients that I did their projects before with
15:10
Speaker 2: my team, but I just knew that I would need
15:12
Speaker 2: something to sell and that's where mescalone was born.
15:16
Speaker 1: Jenna, I read that Andy Cohen said to you before
15:18
Speaker 1: you started the show. Once you're on the show, you
15:20
Speaker 1: cannot hide. The fandom is gigantic. How does being known
15:25
Speaker 1: from reality TV versus being known from other parts of
15:29
Speaker 1: your life? How is it different or similar?
15:32
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the main difference is and I've
15:34
Speaker 3: struggled with it a little bit. You know, before I
15:35
Speaker 3: was known for like accomplishing something, for creating something, and
15:39
Speaker 3: there was a sense of pride that I had done
15:41
Speaker 3: something to earn that acknowledgment. This is really different because
15:45
Speaker 3: I'm just on a TV show and I didn't necessarily
15:47
Speaker 3: do anything. People are so nice and they're like, oh,
15:49
Speaker 3: I love you, and like people say the same thing
15:51
Speaker 3: when I was like, you Crow, I love your work.
15:53
Speaker 3: But I think it still feels good, you know what
15:55
Speaker 3: I mean, Like when someone comes up to you and says,
15:57
Speaker 3: can I take a picture with you? Like it never
15:59
Speaker 3: gets old. I'm so grateful. I feel so much like
16:02
Speaker 3: appreciation and like pride because you're connecting with someone that
16:06
Speaker 3: you've never met before. They're brave enough to come up
16:09
Speaker 3: to you and say, I really like you, can I take.
16:11
Speaker 2: A picture with you.
16:12
Speaker 3: I appreciate it, like I will always appreciate it. It
16:14
Speaker 3: feels good, and whether it's for a work I've done
16:17
Speaker 3: or just because they actually are a fan of the show.
16:19
Speaker 3: And there's been times where people really don't know who
16:22
Speaker 3: I am. You know, They're like, I know you're on
16:23
Speaker 3: the show, but they like, I don't really care. It's
16:26
Speaker 3: all good, it's all upside, it's fun.
16:28
Speaker 2: That's funny.
16:29
Speaker 1: If they don't watch the show and they want to.
16:31
Speaker 3: There's been a few times where I can tell people
16:32
Speaker 3: don't really know. They just like know right my mom my,
16:37
Speaker 3: mom told me you're cute, and I'm like, Okay.
16:39
Speaker 1: Has walking through the world change for you? With all
16:41
Speaker 1: of the opinions in the beginning, Now, I just don't care.
16:45
Speaker 1: I had already gone through a face.
16:47
Speaker 2: Sure, I didn't know.
16:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been through the grind before where it was
16:50
Speaker 3: hard for me.
16:51
Speaker 2: Really.
16:51
Speaker 3: I'd been outed in the press, I'd been talked about
16:54
Speaker 3: in the press positively and negatively, and I realized that, like,
16:59
Speaker 3: if you read it, it's just going to get in
17:01
Speaker 3: your head, because if you read the good, your head
17:02
Speaker 3: blows up, and if you read the bad, you start
17:04
Speaker 3: to actually like think about it. And the fact matter
17:06
Speaker 3: is people don't know you, and the number of people
17:08
Speaker 3: who leave comments and they don't know anything about you.
17:11
Speaker 3: Half the time they're misinformed or they misinterpret something and
17:14
Speaker 3: they don't know the whole picture. I just don't read
17:15
Speaker 3: any of it. I think for anyone who started it
17:18
Speaker 3: was their first time getting a lot of negative feedback.
17:20
Speaker 3: It's hard. If you read it, it can really get.
17:22
Speaker 1: To Yeah when you say it's hard, like where your
17:25
Speaker 1: feelings hard? Were you crying to Abe?
17:27
Speaker 4: Like?
17:27
Speaker 2: What was I was just like what is happening? Like
17:31
Speaker 2: why are people so mean? I just didn't understand it.
17:34
Speaker 2: I was confused. I was like, why are they being
17:36
Speaker 2: so mean? Like what did I do to anybody?
17:38
Speaker 1: You know?
17:39
Speaker 2: I think it just takes a minute to get used to.
17:41
Speaker 2: And it's actually really upsetting because not for me, but
17:45
Speaker 2: I remember it saying like this hurts me, and I'm
17:49
Speaker 2: an established person with a husband and a family and
17:53
Speaker 2: a business. Could you imagine what a high school kid
17:57
Speaker 2: that is vulnerable? It actually broke my heart because because
18:00
Speaker 2: I felt so sad for so many people that must
18:05
Speaker 2: be going through this bullying. And people are like warriors
18:09
Speaker 2: behind their computers and they are me and they're brutal.
18:12
Speaker 2: And then you hear about like that boy who committed suicide.
18:16
Speaker 2: It's a real problem, it really is. It's a real epidemic.
18:19
Speaker 2: I think it's amazing that there are these charities now
18:21
Speaker 2: and they're like real programs against it. And even that
18:25
Speaker 2: Instagram has like teen accounts. I mean, people are waking
18:27
Speaker 2: up to it. It's a scary place for a young
18:30
Speaker 2: person that is, you know, vulnerable.
18:32
Speaker 1: I think in theory people feel like who cares? Like
18:36
Speaker 1: you're living your life, you're on the show, your businesses
18:39
Speaker 1: are thriving, but like it does hurt, and now.
18:42
Speaker 2: I'm just like, yeah, who are you little troll?
18:44
Speaker 3: Like you don't even have to Oftentimes when you go
18:45
Speaker 3: and find the person, you're.
18:46
Speaker 2: Like yeah, it's like user five, four to six, yeah.
18:49
Speaker 3: Exactly, or there's a picture of them and I'm like really, yeah,
18:52
Speaker 3: someone made a comment about my boobs being out, and
18:55
Speaker 3: then I went and looked at her and I'm like, oh,
18:56
Speaker 3: those boots should never be out.
18:57
Speaker 2: Mine are fine, Like you can.
18:59
Speaker 3: Back up right exactly, people are, so it's oftentimes the
19:03
Speaker 3: people who are not happy with themselves who told the
19:05
Speaker 3: need to actually put someone down.
19:07
Speaker 1: So totally, yeah, is there something you think people misunderstand
19:11
Speaker 1: about you because of TV? Do you feel misunderstood in
19:15
Speaker 1: any way?
19:15
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if there's any overarching I
19:17
Speaker 3: think I got it more from my past life in
19:19
Speaker 3: my job, where people thought that I was like really
19:22
Speaker 3: intense interesting, which I thought to.
19:24
Speaker 2: Tell anything about Jenna before because I just live under
19:27
Speaker 2: a rock, but like, so not what I expected based
19:31
Speaker 2: on what people told me about you when we first
19:33
Speaker 2: started working together. Like legitimately, it was like she was
19:37
Speaker 2: the Devilwars pradact and like very into Like no, not
19:40
Speaker 2: you at all.
19:42
Speaker 3: And I heard that from other people and I was like,
19:45
Speaker 3: I don't know where that wild.
19:49
Speaker 1: It was really not your personality.
19:50
Speaker 2: Well and it wasn't my personal not my job either,
19:52
Speaker 2: but also fun that you were a professional and that
19:55
Speaker 2: you expected things from your employees and like but.
19:57
Speaker 3: They were all amazing. It was like the the team
20:00
Speaker 3: was incredible, Like I didn't need to be demanding in
20:04
Speaker 3: that way because the bar and the caliber people that
20:06
Speaker 3: were working there were incredible. And I was like so
20:09
Speaker 3: honored to be working with them and the team left,
20:11
Speaker 3: right and center. Everyone was amazing. So I never had
20:14
Speaker 3: to like be one of those bosses who had to
20:17
Speaker 3: sit down, and it just never happened. So I didn't
20:19
Speaker 3: really understand ricking. But I remember really distinctly, you know,
20:23
Speaker 3: I would interview people and I remember this woman came
20:26
Speaker 3: from HR. HR was on the eleventh floor and my
20:28
Speaker 3: office was on the fourteenth floor. Sage to walk up
20:30
Speaker 3: if you came up the back, it was easier than
20:32
Speaker 3: going all the way around, so they would walk up
20:34
Speaker 3: the stairs at the back, and I remember this woman
20:35
Speaker 3: got to my office and she was panting and I said,
20:39
Speaker 3: are you okay? And she said, I'm just so nervous
20:42
Speaker 3: and walking up the stairs. And I was like, just
20:44
Speaker 3: sit for a minute. I'm going to go and i'm
20:45
Speaker 3: going to answer a couple of things and i'll come
20:47
Speaker 3: back and i'll give you a couple of minutes to sit.
20:49
Speaker 3: And I came back and she was sitting there and
20:50
Speaker 3: she was sweating, and she was like, I'm just so nervous.
20:53
Speaker 3: And I think it's like when you touch a corner office,
20:56
Speaker 3: a big job, a president title, all of a sudden,
20:58
Speaker 3: people make assumptions about you, nothing to do with who
21:00
Speaker 3: you are. They're just how they do right, And I
21:03
Speaker 3: think the way that women, particularly women in power, are
21:06
Speaker 3: portrayed in the media is that they are bitches totally.
21:09
Speaker 3: So you're kind of fighting against something that you had
21:12
Speaker 3: nothing to do with, the new place, the group. So
21:14
Speaker 3: I think I've always been sort of pushing against that.
21:16
Speaker 1: I mean, we met at Aaron's dinner. Can I share
21:19
Speaker 1: a story of what you did? You were so sweet.
21:21
Speaker 1: So a lot of the people at the dinner knew people,
21:24
Speaker 1: and I was new and at one point I was
21:26
Speaker 1: just kind of like sitting by myself eating because people were.
21:29
Speaker 2: Chatting I'm fine, bad hosts Aarin, not at all. I'm fine.
21:33
Speaker 1: But Jenna saw me and went out of her way
21:36
Speaker 1: and said to the person next to her, like, let's
21:37
Speaker 1: include like open the conversation. And I think that says
21:41
Speaker 1: so much about who she is. You didn't have to
21:44
Speaker 1: do that, Like, I can't even imagine you being mean
21:46
Speaker 1: in a corner.
21:46
Speaker 2: No, the same, not at all.
21:48
Speaker 1: That's wild.
21:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had nothing to do with me and large
21:51
Speaker 3: to do with the idea of a woman who has
21:53
Speaker 3: a title like that is probably a bitch. I think
21:56
Speaker 3: it is more to do with that than I think.
21:58
Speaker 3: And I think also the type pulled back hair and
22:00
Speaker 3: glasses didn't help. And you know, like that would never
22:02
Speaker 3: happen with a male boss. Absolutely never.
22:05
Speaker 1: Was that a choice? Were you like creating a brand?
22:08
Speaker 2: Not at all.
22:09
Speaker 3: I started wearing my hair because after I had my son,
22:11
Speaker 3: when I was breastfeeding, every time I had my hair down,
22:13
Speaker 3: he would grab it and pull on it, and so
22:15
Speaker 3: I started putting it up because it was just too much.
22:17
Speaker 3: The glasses just came from I needed them to read,
22:19
Speaker 3: but I had to walk around four floors. It was
22:23
Speaker 3: a full city block. So I was walking around all
22:25
Speaker 3: day long and always on my phone and I would
22:28
Speaker 3: look up and be on my BlackBerry when it first started,
22:30
Speaker 3: and I kept falling up the stairs, meaning I was
22:32
Speaker 3: going up the stairs and I would miss a step
22:34
Speaker 3: and slide down because when you have readers on, it
22:37
Speaker 3: focuses for your reading, and then I'd look up and
22:39
Speaker 3: I would misjudge. And after the third time I fell
22:41
Speaker 3: up the stairs, I was like, I have to get bifocals.
22:43
Speaker 3: And once you have bifocals, I just wore them all
22:45
Speaker 3: the time. So it just kind of happened. The two
22:47
Speaker 3: things happened at the same time. And then the red
22:49
Speaker 3: lip just came from looking really dead and tired one
22:52
Speaker 3: day and the makeup artist he's like, let's just brighten
22:54
Speaker 3: you up and put a bunch of blush and red
22:55
Speaker 3: lip on me, and like that picture. Whatever happened that
22:57
Speaker 3: one photograph became one that people really love and kept
23:00
Speaker 3: using over and it just kind of happened. It wasn't
23:03
Speaker 3: me trying to create a brand. I was so a
23:05
Speaker 3: girl at that point too, and I wasn't gay at
23:06
Speaker 3: this point, so I was girly and trying to be
23:09
Speaker 3: what I thought men wanted and write, you know, the
23:12
Speaker 3: long hair, you know, definitely not a red lip, definitely
23:14
Speaker 3: not calculated.
23:16
Speaker 1: That's interesting to know that it was by accident. Jenna,
23:18
Speaker 1: you've wanted to work in fashion since you were in
23:20
Speaker 1: seventh grade. I read how is your relationship to the
23:24
Speaker 1: fashion business changed over time? Are you still in love
23:27
Speaker 1: with it?
23:27
Speaker 3: I think what I was always in love with was clothes,
23:29
Speaker 3: and I still am. It wasn't the business. I didn't
23:31
Speaker 3: know what the business was. I just loved sequence and flannel,
23:36
Speaker 3: and I didn't understand the business part of it. When
23:39
Speaker 3: I was young, I just wanted to make things, and
23:42
Speaker 3: I liked the transformation that clothes can deliver, like the
23:45
Speaker 3: way they can make you feel, you know, and that's
23:48
Speaker 3: what drew me to that.
23:50
Speaker 2: Part of it.
23:50
Speaker 3: I wasn't interested in the industry per se. My relationship
23:53
Speaker 3: with it has changed and I'm not a part of
23:55
Speaker 3: it in the way I was. And that's really okay
23:57
Speaker 3: with me. Like, I had my moment, and I'm really
24:00
Speaker 3: grateful to be able to do something and have a
24:02
Speaker 3: second act, you know, particularly at my age. It's not
24:05
Speaker 3: something I ever expected, but it's been great. How do
24:07
Speaker 3: you guys know when something has run its course business wise?
24:10
Speaker 2: Hmm?
24:11
Speaker 3: I think you kind of just now. I mean sometimes
24:13
Speaker 3: it tells you from the outside. Any Yeah, and I
24:17
Speaker 3: had we had kind of a crazy thing happened. There
24:19
Speaker 3: was no choice. I didn't It would not have been
24:21
Speaker 3: prudent to keep going, and I had to make a decision.
24:24
Speaker 3: And sometimes it's got Sometimes it's the business itself.
24:27
Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes it's both.
24:29
Speaker 1: In my case, it was both for your handbag line, yoursel.
24:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew it wasn't going to work out, and
24:34
Speaker 2: also just the business was telling me that it was
24:36
Speaker 2: no longer a viable option at all.
24:38
Speaker 1: And do you ever feel like it's not going to
24:40
Speaker 1: work out, like, for instance, with the handbags, it's not
24:42
Speaker 1: going to work out because you didn't care enough to
24:44
Speaker 1: make it work out, Like this is not where my
24:46
Speaker 1: passion lies.
24:47
Speaker 2: I think both. I think after a while I started realizing,
24:50
Speaker 2: like a couple of years in that like this wasn't
24:52
Speaker 2: for me. And I think also just like it was
24:55
Speaker 2: a really hard business, like leather handbags, it's really hard business,
24:59
Speaker 2: like you you need to have a connection in the
25:01
Speaker 2: fashion world. I think most designers now really either they're
25:04
Speaker 2: incredibly talented and it's an unusual unicorn, or like they're
25:09
Speaker 2: being fed into the fashion world.
25:12
Speaker 3: It's also it's unusual, and the handbag business in this
25:15
Speaker 3: country is so status driven, so they are often drafting
25:19
Speaker 3: off of an apparel line. So in absence of that,
25:21
Speaker 3: it requires you to do so much to be able
25:24
Speaker 3: to compete. And sometimes that's the moment where it's like
25:28
Speaker 3: a zeitgeist moment where someone wears it and that kind
25:30
Speaker 3: of changes things. But if you're just doing it on
25:32
Speaker 3: your own, it's just so hard to break through.
25:34
Speaker 2: And we did have those moments where people would wear them,
25:37
Speaker 2: and it was in the press and some of the
25:38
Speaker 2: bags were really beautiful. But then I had to make minimum.
25:42
Speaker 2: And then I was moved over to China, and I
25:44
Speaker 2: didn't know what I was doing. So I was making
25:46
Speaker 2: all these bags sitting on inventory literally because of death
25:49
Speaker 2: in business, sitting on inventory that's not moving. Figuring out
25:52
Speaker 2: where to sell it, like it was really hard, but
25:54
Speaker 2: we learned everything of what not to do, and it
25:57
Speaker 2: was really the best experience, honestly.
25:59
Speaker 1: Because now you know what to do and what to
26:01
Speaker 1: look for so much.
26:02
Speaker 2: So, I mean, Abe was doing the business with me,
26:05
Speaker 2: and when we decided to start mys galoom, like we
26:07
Speaker 2: really knew what we were doing. Like, we really knew
26:10
Speaker 2: what we were doing. We were raising money, not putting
26:12
Speaker 2: our own money into it. We knew who to hire,
26:15
Speaker 2: we knew when to ask for help, we knew what
26:17
Speaker 2: we needed, and we knew what we didn't. We knew
26:19
Speaker 2: where to spend the money. It just felt different, and
26:22
Speaker 2: you can only learn that by doing it. I really
26:24
Speaker 2: don't think you can learn it.
26:25
Speaker 3: But it's so true, this idea of a business not working.
26:27
Speaker 3: I think people don't realize when you look at people
26:30
Speaker 3: who are entrepreneurial and who do things. Everyone has had
26:33
Speaker 3: one total pocket. There's not a single person I know
26:36
Speaker 3: who has done something and hasn't taken a risk and failed.
26:39
Speaker 3: If you don't feel, you don't learn and there's nothing
26:41
Speaker 3: wrong with it, But there's this weird kind of connotation
26:44
Speaker 3: around like, oh it didn't work out. It's like, yeah,
26:45
Speaker 3: but I learned a lot.
26:46
Speaker 2: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Almost every single masterclass I
26:50
Speaker 2: would listen to in the very beginning of having my business,
26:53
Speaker 2: like the first one, people were saying, trust your gut
26:56
Speaker 2: and failure is good. And these are like you know,
26:58
Speaker 2: CEOs of big companies that were saying this, and I
27:00
Speaker 2: remember feeling like, Okay, this does fail, it's okay, And
27:03
Speaker 2: that's when I was finally able to let go of it.
27:05
Speaker 3: I think when I was doing a rayse, you start
27:07
Speaker 3: to talk to people who are in that business, who
27:09
Speaker 3: are used to people raising money, and what's so interesting
27:13
Speaker 3: is that they're just so used to things, like they're saying,
27:15
Speaker 3: I've invested in ten things too have popped, and you're like, okay, right.
27:19
Speaker 3: People expect things don't all go smoothly. And I think
27:22
Speaker 3: we particularly I know as women like have this incredible
27:26
Speaker 3: desire to not fail. You want to prove yourself. You
27:28
Speaker 3: feel like it's more important for me. When I had
27:30
Speaker 3: to close Love scene, it there was like a shame
27:32
Speaker 3: attached to it. And then once I got through it,
27:34
Speaker 3: I was like, why am I doing this myself? Because
27:36
Speaker 3: there was nothing I could have done to change the outcome. Like.
27:38
Speaker 3: It wasn't because I wasn't passionate. It wasn't because I
27:39
Speaker 3: didn't love it. It was a manufacturing and then a
27:42
Speaker 3: situation that happened that I couldn't undo and the fix
27:45
Speaker 3: would take too long. We don't have to go into
27:48
Speaker 3: it too deeply, but I made a choice that I
27:50
Speaker 3: thought was the right one. I made a choice to
27:52
Speaker 3: make the packaging out of bagas, which is sugarcane pulp,
27:54
Speaker 3: and long story short, we had a huge order and
27:58
Speaker 3: the order was set to deliver right when the show
27:59
Speaker 3: is to launch, and the factory had stored the product
28:03
Speaker 3: in an unclimatized space because they'd only ever wrapped things
28:06
Speaker 3: in plastic, and the product grew mold and they couldn't
28:08
Speaker 3: ship it, and so then it was late. And then
28:11
Speaker 3: our biggest account, which was Target, who placed a massive
28:15
Speaker 3: order that we had already paid for long story, short makeup,
28:17
Speaker 3: saying we're going to fix it. We're going to fix it,
28:18
Speaker 3: and Target was like, we can't work like this. It
28:20
Speaker 3: took more than four months for the product to end
28:22
Speaker 3: up being ready and they were like, this doesn't work.
28:25
Speaker 3: And then we lost our biggest account and I knew
28:27
Speaker 3: that I couldn't make up the difference in that volume.
28:30
Speaker 3: I would have had to have seven hundred accounts to
28:31
Speaker 3: make up for that volume and then hire a bunch
28:34
Speaker 3: of people to actually service them.
28:35
Speaker 2: It was just not happening.
28:36
Speaker 1: Breaking.
28:37
Speaker 3: It was also a slow heartbreak, like I just kept
28:39
Speaker 3: thinking it was going to be okay, it was going
28:40
Speaker 3: to be okay, it was going to be okay, and
28:42
Speaker 3: it just wasn't. And finally I had to make a
28:43
Speaker 3: call and be like this is not like I was
28:45
Speaker 3: just literally it was on life support.
28:47
Speaker 2: And you know what's beautiful about you telling the story
28:49
Speaker 2: now is that failure can happen at any point Like here,
28:54
Speaker 2: you are a very successful business woman. You've had many
28:58
Speaker 2: successes and you know, many wins, and then you started
29:00
Speaker 2: a business and it didn't work out even now, and
29:02
Speaker 2: that's okay, And I think.
29:03
Speaker 3: That what you just said earlier. Is like you start
29:05
Speaker 3: to realize all the places where I could have tuned in,
29:07
Speaker 3: I probably should have grown a little slower.
29:22
Speaker 1: I think that both of you and I look at
29:24
Speaker 1: your career trajectories, You've both bet on yourselves a lot,
29:28
Speaker 1: and sometimes in ways that could be scary. Even joining
29:30
Speaker 1: the show, you were kind of going and blind. That's
29:32
Speaker 1: a bet on yourself. Is there a moment in your
29:35
Speaker 1: life where you feel like you bet on yourself before
29:37
Speaker 1: anybody else did?
29:38
Speaker 2: Just every day?
29:39
Speaker 3: I would be lying if I said that. I think
29:41
Speaker 3: when I was younger, I wasn't betting on myself. I
29:43
Speaker 3: was betting on working hard. I never in a million
29:46
Speaker 3: years thought I would have the career in life i've had.
29:48
Speaker 3: Never I thought I was going to be a designer,
29:51
Speaker 3: and I was just hopeful that I would make over
29:53
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand dollars a year and be able to
29:55
Speaker 3: afford to buy a house some day. Like I just
29:56
Speaker 3: didn't think that I was going to get that. I
29:59
Speaker 3: didn't come f money. I didn't dream that way because
30:02
Speaker 3: I didn't see it and I didn't think it was possible.
30:04
Speaker 3: And again, I grew up in a small town far
30:06
Speaker 3: away from New York. There was no Internet, so I
30:08
Speaker 3: didn't know what all the options were. I just was like,
30:11
Speaker 3: I knew about designers. I knew that there was Donna
30:14
Speaker 3: Karen and Liz Claiborne and Calvin Klein, and was like,
30:17
Speaker 3: could I be one of them? And I didn't think
30:18
Speaker 3: I'd get famous, but I just wanted to make clothes.
30:20
Speaker 3: So I don't know if I was betting on myself.
30:22
Speaker 3: I think I was just like, I'm going to work
30:23
Speaker 3: as hard as I can and hopefully have fun along
30:25
Speaker 3: the way, and it turned out better than I expected.
30:27
Speaker 1: When did your ambition start to feel like it was crystallizing.
30:31
Speaker 3: There's little things that happen when you're young, like the
30:34
Speaker 3: first promotion in someone saying you're doing a really good job,
30:36
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, maybe I actually am okay, Like
30:39
Speaker 3: maybe I'm good at this. Because it's one thing to
30:41
Speaker 3: be good at it and like it. It's another thing
30:42
Speaker 3: for it to actually be financially viable. And there is
30:45
Speaker 3: a real nuance to that. You know, there's a lot
30:47
Speaker 3: of people who are incredibly creative but can't turn that
30:51
Speaker 3: into something. And so I think when the mix of
30:54
Speaker 3: seeing the work or things that I had developed or
30:56
Speaker 3: made be successful and you know, be one of the
30:59
Speaker 3: best selling items. It's like people who are voting for you,
31:03
Speaker 3: loving your product as a customer is really I mean,
31:06
Speaker 3: I remember distinctly standing in the middle of JFK Airport
31:09
Speaker 3: when I just landed and standing at baggage claim, and
31:11
Speaker 3: there must have been like seven double cloth coats, which
31:13
Speaker 3: is a coat that I designed and found the fabric,
31:16
Speaker 3: developed the fabric the whole nine yards, and I remember
31:18
Speaker 3: just seeing all these women wearing the coat and they
31:20
Speaker 3: all looked great, and I was so proud, awesome, it
31:23
Speaker 3: was really nice.
31:24
Speaker 2: That's a great feeling.
31:25
Speaker 3: That's where you start to think like, oh, it's rewarding.
31:28
Speaker 3: It's like the ambition comes from feeling like you can
31:31
Speaker 3: actually achieve something and seeing it play out in real time,
31:34
Speaker 3: and that's exciting. That's why I like making things. It
31:37
Speaker 3: is very nice to be able to produce something like
31:39
Speaker 3: having a book something so that you can share with people.
31:41
Speaker 3: I did that, you know, And I could even see
31:43
Speaker 3: when we were at a dinner party recently and Aaron
31:45
Speaker 3: was talking about her mess column, She's like, that's mine,
31:47
Speaker 3: and your face lights up, and it's like nice when
31:49
Speaker 3: you have this thing that you've made. It's really a
31:51
Speaker 3: very different experience than working in finance, you know, where
31:54
Speaker 3: you don't have something as physical.
31:56
Speaker 2: It's because we're creative, and it's like when you can
31:58
Speaker 2: envision something and it's in your mind and then all
32:01
Speaker 2: of a sudden, it's like there.
32:03
Speaker 1: This is kind of a deep question, but I am
32:04
Speaker 1: very curious about the answer. So you've built a business
32:07
Speaker 1: around curating homes and now you're in a world that
32:10
Speaker 1: is constantly deconstructing your life at every turn. How do
32:14
Speaker 1: you stay in control of your own story when reality
32:18
Speaker 1: TV is kind of designed to take it away from you?
32:21
Speaker 2: You don't short answer, You don't stay in control of
32:25
Speaker 2: your own story. You got to go with it. You
32:28
Speaker 2: just have to go with it. You have to be
32:29
Speaker 2: your authentic self. That's how you stay in control of
32:32
Speaker 2: your own story. First of all, you can't control it all.
32:34
Speaker 2: But if you are who you truly are on and
32:37
Speaker 2: off camera, you can stay in control because you're not
32:41
Speaker 2: changing anything about it. It's your story if it's really you,
32:44
Speaker 2: and I feel really strongly about that. I feel really
32:47
Speaker 2: strongly about being myself on camera because when I agreed
32:50
Speaker 2: to do the show, it was to do a reality show,
32:53
Speaker 2: not a scripted TV show, and I felt like I
32:57
Speaker 2: really wanted to be fully myself and show up that way,
33:00
Speaker 2: and so I really try to do that. You know,
33:02
Speaker 2: it can be challenging with certain people that you know,
33:06
Speaker 2: we'll try to manipulate stories or get mad at you
33:09
Speaker 2: or whatever. But I think for the most part, if
33:12
Speaker 2: you do that, people respond.
33:14
Speaker 1: As I'm hearing you say that, I'm like, Okay. Maybe
33:16
Speaker 1: that's why people go off the rails is they try
33:19
Speaker 1: to control.
33:19
Speaker 3: It and they can't, or they try to produce it
33:22
Speaker 3: to make it a story and it can't do the
33:25
Speaker 3: shows it all shows to see through it like it's
33:28
Speaker 3: not people see through it.
33:29
Speaker 2: It's not entertaining, it's not.
33:31
Speaker 3: But I also I agree with Aaron like the idea
33:34
Speaker 3: that you can control at a macro level. They can
33:36
Speaker 3: only make decisions about you based on what you see,
33:39
Speaker 3: So what you offer up and how you show up
33:41
Speaker 3: at every given turn is really all they have. So
33:44
Speaker 3: it's you know, while you can't control it, you can
33:47
Speaker 3: just be yourself. And then if somebody wants to make
33:50
Speaker 3: a cracket who you are as a person and with
33:52
Speaker 3: what little they know of you from a TV show,
33:54
Speaker 3: then they can have their fund right.
33:56
Speaker 2: It's like totally have about it.
33:57
Speaker 1: Jenna, do you feel like you have any style advice
33:59
Speaker 1: that applies to both fashion and life. I'll give you
34:03
Speaker 1: an example. I asked Carla Welch this and she said,
34:06
Speaker 1: where the dress, meaning like, we're that fancy special dress
34:09
Speaker 1: you have that you're like waiting for a special occasion.
34:12
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm always so apprehensive to give advice because
34:15
Speaker 3: I think it's so often misinterpreted, and I feel like
34:19
Speaker 3: what works for me is not necessarily going to work
34:21
Speaker 3: for someone else. I think the only thing I would
34:23
Speaker 3: say is that you can always tell when someone gives
34:26
Speaker 3: a genuine compliment, Like you can feel it when someone's
34:29
Speaker 3: like you look great, and pay attention to what you're
34:31
Speaker 3: wearing that day, because I think there's this feeling that
34:33
Speaker 3: people have to change and be different all the time,
34:35
Speaker 3: and I do think it's like things work for people
34:38
Speaker 3: and having an identity and having a perspective of like
34:40
Speaker 3: this is who I am and how you show Actually
34:43
Speaker 3: there's something really nice about that, And it doesn't mean
34:45
Speaker 3: you have to have a uniform, but like it kind
34:47
Speaker 3: of creates a narrative around you unless you be yourself
34:49
Speaker 3: and I think there's certain things that people look really
34:52
Speaker 3: great in. I mean, Kim Kardashian is a perfect example,
34:54
Speaker 3: and you can like her love her, that's on the point.
34:55
Speaker 3: But if you close your eyes, you can sort of
34:57
Speaker 3: picture something with her. The same thing when you think
34:59
Speaker 3: about Annie Holt, you close your eyes and you can
35:01
Speaker 3: picture a sense of style. And I think it's nice
35:03
Speaker 3: when people develop their own thing. It doesn't matter what
35:05
Speaker 3: it is. Kim Kardashian and Andy Hawk Dian Katon couldn't
35:08
Speaker 3: be more different, but they both have something that is
35:11
Speaker 3: specifically distinct. Yeah, and I think there's something really nice
35:14
Speaker 3: about that, and it doesn't need to change over time.
35:17
Speaker 1: Do you guys subscribe to the three word rule? There's
35:20
Speaker 1: this girl on Instagram forgot her name, but she says, like,
35:22
Speaker 1: you have to pick the three words for your style,
35:26
Speaker 1: and then that way, when you go into a store,
35:28
Speaker 1: you know like is it hot Italian? You know, like
35:31
Speaker 1: whatever it is, it tailored.
35:33
Speaker 3: And I feel like those kinds of things are gimmicks.
35:36
Speaker 2: I mean, I really do. There are probably three words
35:38
Speaker 2: to describe both of us.
35:39
Speaker 3: But like the idea that I would go into a
35:41
Speaker 3: store thinking about it, I would never like it just
35:44
Speaker 3: would never occur to me. I also, if there's a
35:47
Speaker 3: white shirt rack, I will find it.
35:48
Speaker 1: Do each other's what are the three words?
35:50
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yours because it's easy tailored tomboy and she, oh,
35:56
Speaker 2: thank you.
35:57
Speaker 1: That was a good role.
35:58
Speaker 3: I would say Aaron's is she's always got a sultry
36:02
Speaker 3: part of her.
36:03
Speaker 2: You do.
36:04
Speaker 3: You're good at sharing skin but not too much, which
36:07
Speaker 3: I appreciate. You have something I like, which is you
36:09
Speaker 3: can do glamour, but you also do incredibly good like
36:12
Speaker 3: sort of an authentic casual, which I think is really nice.
36:14
Speaker 3: Like there is like a real like I don't know
36:17
Speaker 3: what the word is, and I should be better at
36:19
Speaker 3: this because.
36:19
Speaker 2: This is my job.
36:20
Speaker 3: But no casual is because she does both. But you
36:23
Speaker 3: also love a good glam like you do do a
36:27
Speaker 3: good glam like. There's a sultry you can do sultry
36:29
Speaker 3: glam and sultry casual, which I think is also hard
36:31
Speaker 3: to do like that because I think even when you're
36:34
Speaker 3: casual and when you're glam, there's still that kind of
36:37
Speaker 3: quiet sultry like you're never overtly sexy. You're not wearing
36:40
Speaker 3: a push up braw you don't have that kind of
36:42
Speaker 3: overly plumped vibe, which I appreciate that, but I think
36:45
Speaker 3: there's a sultiness. Oh you can absolutely get your boobs,
36:49
Speaker 3: but I want to lift, I want to plant. Where
36:52
Speaker 3: are they going to take the jump from? You got
36:54
Speaker 3: nothing to dunk? You're more Yeah, yeah, you could fatten
36:58
Speaker 3: yourself up.
37:00
Speaker 2: I might.
37:00
Speaker 3: That's actually not a bad idea.
37:01
Speaker 2: I maybe I'll just do that.
37:03
Speaker 1: So, Jenna, I was reading that you were teased mercilessly
37:06
Speaker 1: yes as a kid, which hurts my heart.
37:09
Speaker 2: Thank you.
37:09
Speaker 1: And then you went into fashion, which is interesting to me.
37:12
Speaker 1: I know you loved clothes, but fashion is not known
37:16
Speaker 1: to be the kindest industry. Like that's where like the
37:18
Speaker 1: cool kids go.
37:19
Speaker 3: You're a lot younger than I am, so you have
37:22
Speaker 3: to understand I didn't know any of this when I
37:24
Speaker 3: was young, Like, I just thought I was going to
37:27
Speaker 3: work in a design room somewhere and be of service
37:29
Speaker 3: to another brand. I didn't understand the industry. There was
37:32
Speaker 3: no access to the industry when as a kid, all
37:34
Speaker 3: I knew was that I liked making clothes and I
37:37
Speaker 3: liked the transformative power of clothes. It was the only
37:39
Speaker 3: time that I had positive feedback was when I would
37:41
Speaker 3: make something. And so for me, it wasn't like I
37:45
Speaker 3: was scared of the industry. I didn't know what the
37:46
Speaker 3: industry was about. There was no Devilware's Prada, there was
37:48
Speaker 3: no Insta.
37:49
Speaker 2: I had no idea.
37:50
Speaker 1: Do you think being an outsider makes people a taste maker?
37:55
Speaker 2: No?
37:55
Speaker 3: I think being an outsider makes you more attuned and
37:58
Speaker 3: makes you a little bit more. I mean, I think
38:00
Speaker 3: it's the reason, Like when I saw you sitting there
38:02
Speaker 3: by yourself, being left out is like one of those
38:04
Speaker 3: things for me really does something to me. Like the
38:06
Speaker 3: last person you know to be picked at a dance,
38:08
Speaker 3: the person who never got picked to be on a team,
38:10
Speaker 3: like the person who didn't get picked to be in
38:12
Speaker 3: the photograph, Like I get all taken by those things.
38:16
Speaker 3: And so for me, I was just looking to do
38:18
Speaker 3: something that I loved that I could feel like I
38:20
Speaker 3: had a place in. But I didn't understand like that
38:23
Speaker 3: it was the cool kids area.
38:24
Speaker 2: I never expected to be in that room.
38:26
Speaker 3: And honestly, it was always an outsider even when I
38:28
Speaker 3: was at j Crue, Like I wasn't like one of
38:29
Speaker 3: the designers, Like I wasn't the friends of boys or
38:32
Speaker 3: you know, I never felt completely on the inside, but
38:34
Speaker 3: I still love it. But again, I love the clothes,
38:37
Speaker 3: Like the industry is not what it's about for me.
38:40
Speaker 1: What do you think are the habits that make a
38:43
Speaker 1: great executive a great creative?
38:45
Speaker 3: I would say creative is being curious. If you are
38:48
Speaker 3: not curious about whatever is new and whatever is happening,
38:52
Speaker 3: and whether it's art or fashion or architecture, being curious
38:55
Speaker 3: about the world of design in general, I think helps.
38:58
Speaker 3: And in terms of being an executive, I think it's
39:00
Speaker 3: like getting out of the way. I think the biggest
39:03
Speaker 3: mistakes I've made in being you know, instead of leadership,
39:07
Speaker 3: was always trying to do too much and not like
39:10
Speaker 3: giving people space to do it themselves. I think it's
39:12
Speaker 3: a hard thing to learn that balance of encouraging people,
39:15
Speaker 3: giving them room, supporting them, versus telling them what to do.
39:18
Speaker 3: And I think in my early years particularly, I was
39:20
Speaker 3: a little too didactic and you know, sort of micromanaging,
39:24
Speaker 3: and that does not work. It does not give people wings,
39:27
Speaker 3: it does not inspire them. And I really had to
39:29
Speaker 3: learn how to step back and like give people confidence,
39:33
Speaker 3: tell them that they're great, and like say let's keep
39:35
Speaker 3: going and see what they're capable of. And it was
39:37
Speaker 3: a hard lesson to learn.
39:38
Speaker 1: It seems hard in every way because you give too
39:40
Speaker 1: much leniency and things don't go the way you need
39:44
Speaker 1: them to.
39:45
Speaker 3: And then, yeah, I mean it's a learning curve for sure.
39:47
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's also about team and I
39:49
Speaker 3: think the most important lesson I remember was hire people
39:52
Speaker 3: who are smarter than you. Hire people who fill a
39:54
Speaker 3: void that you don't have. You know, I remember really
39:56
Speaker 3: distinctly someone saying, Oh, I don't want to hire this
39:58
Speaker 3: girl because she could have my job. I'm like, no,
39:59
Speaker 3: that's exactly the person you should hire, because that that
40:01
Speaker 3: means is that she's so good that then you can
40:04
Speaker 3: take on new things. But if you don't ever have
40:06
Speaker 3: a really capable team underneath you, but how are you
40:08
Speaker 3: going to do anything new? And so I think that
40:10
Speaker 3: fear sometimes when people like don't want to be overshadowed.
40:13
Speaker 3: It's like, let someone overshadow you, You're going to actually
40:15
Speaker 3: have room to do other things. It's okay, but I
40:18
Speaker 3: think people get scared. I saw men were much better
40:20
Speaker 3: at it than women, and I hate to gender, but
40:22
Speaker 3: it was something I saw as well, Like women aren't
40:24
Speaker 3: taught the same way to kind of band together in business.
40:28
Speaker 3: I think it's changed, but when I was coming up,
40:29
Speaker 3: it was definitely more like the guys were all together
40:33
Speaker 3: and the girls were all trying to beat each other.
40:35
Speaker 2: It was so strange.
40:36
Speaker 3: Again, it's changed somewhat, but I remember so distinctly from
40:39
Speaker 3: when I was young.
40:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were working in fashion at a very particular time.
40:43
Speaker 2: It was the nineties. I mean, I'm in a different
40:46
Speaker 2: place in my business, and I think what I've learned
40:49
Speaker 2: works really well is having systems in place and having
40:53
Speaker 2: organization in that way. And I think, you know, like
40:57
Speaker 2: watching over my staff at my school and also the
40:59
Speaker 2: girls that just for me personally, if they all know
41:03
Speaker 2: what the systems are, they can do great on their own.
41:07
Speaker 2: So I like to put systems in place, and I
41:09
Speaker 2: have like a lot of processes in ways that we
41:11
Speaker 2: do things, and then they kind of just shine. Yeah,
41:14
Speaker 2: And I think it is good to get out of
41:15
Speaker 2: their way.
41:15
Speaker 3: I mean, I think but depending clear roles and responsibilities
41:19
Speaker 3: helps you get out of their way. I think in
41:21
Speaker 3: absence of that it can be really hard.
41:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think having clarity and I like to also
41:26
Speaker 2: have a lot of communication, like weekly meetings, I'm talking
41:30
Speaker 2: more of like the micro level, but I like to
41:32
Speaker 2: have weekly meetings. I like to do like progress reviews
41:36
Speaker 2: things like that because it helps people feel responsible, I think,
41:39
Speaker 2: for what they're doing, and value too, because then they
41:42
Speaker 2: get to have conversations with me and I'm like, you
41:44
Speaker 2: did such a great job at that marketing campaign, Like
41:47
Speaker 2: that was amazing, Let's work on this and that. I
41:50
Speaker 2: think people just feel good being seen and talk to.
42:06
Speaker 1: You're such a warm, familial person. Do you feel like
42:09
Speaker 1: it's hard to toe the line with employees or do
42:11
Speaker 1: they become part of your family? How does that work?
42:13
Speaker 2: I think it's a little bit of both. I think
42:15
Speaker 2: that I've learned a lot over the years. I think
42:17
Speaker 2: it used to be harder for me, and now like
42:20
Speaker 2: I've just grown up so much in business that I
42:23
Speaker 2: feel like it's a clear line, but it still is family,
42:27
Speaker 2: you know. Like I even have this new assistant that
42:29
Speaker 2: I'm working with, and she was like out with my
42:32
Speaker 2: brother last night, and I was like, stay, you can
42:34
Speaker 2: come a little bit late. It's fine hang out with Dannie.
42:37
Speaker 2: But she knows that she's texting me in the morning
42:40
Speaker 2: and saying, like, here's your schedule, So like I think
42:42
Speaker 2: that it's hard, but I think you can be both.
42:45
Speaker 2: You can still have dinner with them and treat them
42:48
Speaker 2: like family, but also have them realize that there's still
42:51
Speaker 2: a role here and there's a job to be done,
42:53
Speaker 2: but we're working a lot. It's really funny because this
42:55
Speaker 2: girl who just started working for me was like, I
42:57
Speaker 2: would never have thought that you worked as much as
42:59
Speaker 2: you do. She was like shocked. She's like watching you
43:03
Speaker 2: and like seeing you on the show and like seeing
43:05
Speaker 2: you on Instagram, Like I just thought you had so
43:06
Speaker 2: many people doing things for you, and I didn't know
43:08
Speaker 2: that you work all day long, like NonStop, like well,
43:12
Speaker 2: welcome to the club working, you know, like people don't realize.
43:15
Speaker 2: It's so funny.
43:16
Speaker 1: I think Instagram has been confusing because you know, you
43:20
Speaker 1: post like the finished product and not the journey oftentimes. Yeah, okay,
43:25
Speaker 1: I want to do some rapid fire questions with you guys.
43:30
Speaker 1: Your favorite New York tourist trap.
43:32
Speaker 3: I like the tree lighting at Rockfeller Center. Oh yeah,
43:35
Speaker 3: you would, It's really magical. I would, but I'd really
43:38
Speaker 3: love it. It does a magical moment.
43:40
Speaker 1: That's a great one. Central Park great one too. Okay,
43:43
Speaker 1: what's one thing that success in money can't.
43:45
Speaker 2: Buy family love.
43:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I would say the same cuddles, cuddles babies.
43:52
Speaker 1: What's something you used to see as a weakness that
43:54
Speaker 1: turned out to be a strength.
43:55
Speaker 3: I would certainly say not feeling pretty. I think in
43:58
Speaker 3: the end was the thing that turned out to be
44:00
Speaker 3: a strength.
44:01
Speaker 2: I don't know. I have to think about that. I'll
44:04
Speaker 2: come back to it. Okay.
44:05
Speaker 1: A piece of financial advice you wish you knew twenty
44:08
Speaker 1: years ago.
44:08
Speaker 3: Don't rent by I really I bought as soon as
44:12
Speaker 3: I possibly could, and so many people don't.
44:13
Speaker 2: Don't blow all your money from your wedding. Try to
44:16
Speaker 2: invest it somewhere else, into your own business like an
44:19
Speaker 2: idiots it all.
44:21
Speaker 1: What's a book that changed your life? Something you think
44:24
Speaker 1: everybody should read?
44:25
Speaker 3: The Law of Attraction? Read it like six times? Mine's happiness?
44:30
Speaker 2: What is it?
44:30
Speaker 3: Happiness?
44:31
Speaker 1: I haven't heard of that.
44:32
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll send it to Wow, I never heard of it.
44:35
Speaker 1: Okay, beautiful. The smartest decision you've ever made, Mary, it's
44:39
Speaker 1: a sweet one.
44:40
Speaker 3: I'd say moving to New York.
44:42
Speaker 1: I think moving is a bed on yourself totally.
44:45
Speaker 2: I just couldn't leave, though, because I'm just in the
44:47
Speaker 2: best city in the world.
44:48
Speaker 3: But yeah, you were already here. You had encrupt here.
44:50
Speaker 2: It was just lucky.
44:51
Speaker 1: One thing that every woman should try once.
44:53
Speaker 3: These are harder. These are not quick firecus nod questions.
44:58
Speaker 1: You know. I was laughing when you said that because
45:00
Speaker 1: I was like, no, they're rapid fire. I was like, oh,
45:03
Speaker 1: this is rapid fire for me.
45:05
Speaker 2: Every What was the question something that every woman should
45:07
Speaker 2: try for themselves.
45:09
Speaker 1: Try?
45:09
Speaker 2: What would you say?
45:10
Speaker 1: I would say date or have a moment in time
45:14
Speaker 1: with a guy or a girl that you feel like
45:17
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be with, but you're pulled to, like go
45:19
Speaker 1: have the affair totally.
45:22
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, have sex with the woman.
45:24
Speaker 2: I know you were going to say something sexual when
45:27
Speaker 2: she was on the pod. Who Harris, it's funny. Oh man,
45:31
Speaker 2: I never had sex with the woman.
45:32
Speaker 3: Well you got, but you still have some.
45:35
Speaker 2: I still have time. I mean, he'd love to he'd
45:37
Speaker 2: love for me by a woman.
45:38
Speaker 1: Question everything, card game question.
45:41
Speaker 2: We just picked.
45:42
Speaker 1: Okay, to you, it's like taro, it was exciting.
45:46
Speaker 2: Are they shuffled? No? Okay? Is it a good one?
45:50
Speaker 3: I mean I have a good answer.
45:51
Speaker 2: It's a good question.
45:53
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, My question, is the single best party you've
45:56
Speaker 3: ever been to set the scene. I have the insane
46:00
Speaker 3: in honor of being able to go to Schall Obama's
46:02
Speaker 3: fiftieth birthday party at the White House? Who and Prince
46:05
Speaker 3: played Stevie Wonder? I know it was insane. Stevie Wonder
46:10
Speaker 3: Beyonce was crazy in a small room. It was not
46:15
Speaker 3: a huge place, so it was actually in the ballroom
46:18
Speaker 3: at the White House, which was very private. No phones,
46:21
Speaker 3: which is like the death of me because I don't
46:23
Speaker 3: have any visual proof and I've never seen anwy pictures
46:25
Speaker 3: run it. But it was the most intimate. They danced
46:28
Speaker 3: until three thirty in the morning. It was by far
46:31
Speaker 3: one of the best experiences of my entire life.
46:34
Speaker 1: Have you written down all these like epic things? I
46:36
Speaker 1: need a book of stories from you?
46:38
Speaker 2: I should, Okay, mine is what's something that felt super
46:41
Speaker 2: brave in the moment? I'd say picking up and moving
46:46
Speaker 2: to Peru after college?
46:48
Speaker 1: You moved to Peru?
46:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know that.
46:50
Speaker 3: What made you do that?
46:51
Speaker 2: I don't know. At the point we graduated and we
46:54
Speaker 2: were talking about graduation gifts and me and my girlfriend
46:57
Speaker 2: were like, we want to go volunteer in Peru and
47:00
Speaker 2: we just did. I love that and we traveled like
47:03
Speaker 2: almost three months. So cool. Yeah, and living in Barcelona
47:07
Speaker 2: to travel was brave and awesome and I would not
47:12
Speaker 2: trade it for the world. It changed me.
47:14
Speaker 3: I also think you can't understand someone who's young now
47:18
Speaker 3: when we were traveling back then, there was no GPS,
47:21
Speaker 3: no cell phones. You had to use a map, you
47:24
Speaker 3: had to like decide where you're going, and you had
47:25
Speaker 3: to use a book. Like it just is so different today.
47:28
Speaker 3: I think being brave back then was very different. You know,
47:31
Speaker 3: traveling you were meeting people, you had no access to
47:33
Speaker 3: do anything about their lives, and you weren't taking pictures
47:36
Speaker 3: of them or selfies or like figuring out that you're
47:38
Speaker 3: doing that. You had phones. Okay, so I'm older than you.
47:42
Speaker 2: I didn't.
47:43
Speaker 1: Aaron's like, this is not a wee thing.
47:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had.
47:46
Speaker 4: Fought what was their GPS? Yeah, I mean not like
47:51
Speaker 4: there is now, not like there is now. But it
47:53
Speaker 4: was twenty ten, okay for eleven, Yeah, it was a phone.
47:58
Speaker 4: I had an iPhone.
47:59
Speaker 1: I think thank you both so much for your time,
48:02
Speaker 1: and Aaron, congrats.
48:03
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. You have to China Sencil.
48:10
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good
48:13
Speaker 1: day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.