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Honest desire · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Welcome to the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous deep dive here on Progress and Perfection with me, Amon, and my buddy, John. Like, why do we need, why does, why do we need this, this book? Yeah.
• 0:16
  [laughs] Right. You know, why do these guys- [clears throat]... feel the need to sit down and, and create this text? There's not anything inherently original in here.
• 0:27
  The way that it is put together from the alcoholic's perspective and the recovered alcoholic's perspective is unique, but the spiritual takes and kind of the, the spiritual principles, they're all more or less extracted from Christianity and other,
• 0:43
  uh, religious organizations from- Yeah... back here in the '30s and stuff. I mean, A, Bill Wilson, joker wanted to make some money. Right. I think that was one of the original motivations- Sure... like a practical one.
• 0:55
  Like- Sure... "Hey, I'm gonna write a book." Sure. [laughs] I'm gonna sell it. Sure. I'm bankrupt, and you know, I've lost all my funds, all my money from- Yeah... from my drinking.
• 1:03
  So he had a, you know, he was very much business-minded about it, and that, that didn't come to pass. But the motivation, I think, was pure underneath that- Sure... of, "Hey- Sure...
• 1:15
  I have not been able to stop drinking. And for whatever reason, this is now working for me." Mm-hmm. Let's put it down. Uh, 'cause there wasn't anything else. You'd had the Oxford groups that were successful- Right...
• 1:29
  for their own, and I don't know tons of the history there. And then back before that, you'd had the Washingtonians- Mm-hmm... which was a- Okay... more of a temperance movement type- Okay... of thing.
• 1:39
  I don't know the time period, but it was- Sure... you know, maybe turn of the century, 19th- Yeah... century. Um, and they fizzled out. I think they tried to be all things for all people. Uh, and so- Yeah...
• 1:51
  another reason why Alcoholics Anonymous was written as this textbook was, okay, we're just going to look at singleness of purpose. Sure. We're just gonna look at alcohol.
• 2:02
  And course today, it, it lives on and breathes- Yeah... the basis of it breathes in other, in other groups and other organizations. But, but that singleness of purpose kind of bound it together. Yeah.
• 2:16
  How much, um, how much do you know about Bill Wilson's use of psychedelics? Not much. Have you heard about- I, I know it's a thing. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know how much of it is factual.
• 2:27
  [clears throat] And in fact- You know, I don't know how much of it is, is like sort of, sort of hearsay or legend- Yeah...
• 2:34
  or whatever, but, but like I've heard from several different circles, um, the idea of a spiritual experience, um, and sort of the curative factor of and importance of that spiritual experience being birthed out of a psychedelic experience.
• 2:47
  Yeah. 'Cause he had a bright light experience. Mm. I don't know that that, in the hospital, was with psychedelics- Right... but he had like a spiritual experience. Right, right. And best I can tell- Yeah...
• 2:58
  he went on afterwards to be like, "Oh, yeah, if you can have one of these, great- Yeah... 'cause it really helped me." Yeah, right.
• 3:03
  And if you can use something to get you there, you know, th- that would be a positive spiritual thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now- I'll, I'll find a couple articles and- Yeah, we'll see. Yeah...
• 3:12
  put them in the show notes and stuff to kind of- Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. Um, 'cause I'm not, again, I'm not sure if that's legend or, or, um, a creative way to excuse the, the idea of a- Yeah...
• 3:22
  spiritual experience or- Yeah... or what. Um, but I know that that's been sort of in the rumor mill. Yeah. And I think- You know?... there's some fact to it, so I'll, I'll dig up a couple things. Yeah, yeah.
• 3:33
  Yeah, check it out. All right, come back to this idea, this clarifying statement. Yeah. Uh, where was it? Um. So we've got two in the forward to the first edition. We got one kind of in the first paragraph that says,
• 3:47
  well, the first sentence, "We of Alcoholics Anonymous are more than 100 men and women," so it's just small little group, "who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body." Mm.
• 3:57
  "To show other alcoholics precisely how we've recovered is the main purpose of the book." Right. Okay, so [clears throat] maybe we need to like,
• 4:08
  I mean, this is kind of a no-brainer, but like I think it's worth exploring maybe the parts of that statement. What's recovered? What are they referring to when they say recovery or we have recovered?
• 4:19
  The relapse cycle has been arrested 'cause at this point- Mm-hmm... like when you were a drunk, best I understand the history of it, like you're kinda shunned. You're an outsider.
• 4:31
  You're gonna go on to your bottom and just kinda stay there. Yeah. So to me, recovered is, hey, I've arrested this for, you know, a significant period of time, and I found a way out of exactly what it says- Right...
• 4:46
  seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. Yeah. Yeah. It was not just for the alcoholic, but in society's perspective- Mm... this was a hopeless case- Mm-hmm... once you had entered into the realm of addicted.
• 4:59
  Yeah, yeah. [clears throat] Yeah, it makes me think of, uh, rock bottom. Yeah. Just sort of that seemingly hopeless state of being at the bottom and just being drug around- Mm-hmm... with no real- Mm... way to get out,
• 5:12
  um, other than sobriety. Um, okay, what was the last part of that statement? Of the first statement? Yeah. To show, to show other alcoholics- Yeah... precisely how we've recovered is the main purpose- Right...
• 5:29
  of this book. Right, right, right. Yeah, so there's your declaration. Here's what we're about. Yeah. How do you achieve recovery?
• 5:36
  How do you rescue yourself from the pit, from the, from the seemingly hopeless condition of the, the bottomless pit? Mm-hmm. Um, and then it's almost like a, like a testimony- Mm-hmm... almost, that last part of it.
• 5:50
  Yeah. It introduces sort of the personal pass it on component- Right... of what it's gonna be about. Right, the missional. It is. It's like a mission statement- Yeah... a, a missional.
• 6:00
  'Cause then you get, I mean, the first chapter, we, we talk about, you know, this is ahead of ourselves for today- Where we talk about stuff with the disease and the doctor's opinion, but chapter one is Bill's story.
• 6:11
  Right. I mean, all it is is the story of Bill- Yeah... sharing his experience- Yeah... strength, and hope. Yeah. It's so bizarre. It's so weird how this works. [laughs] It's just absolutely bizarre. Isn't it? Isn't it?
• 6:22
  Um, okay, what was the second clause? And then the second statement is- The honest one Yeah, towards the end of the forward to the first edition- Yeah...
• 6:32
  the only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking, and that is, like, tradition three, I think. Mm-hmm. I may be quoting it wrong, but that's one of the traditions. It became the tradition. Right.
• 6:44
  When we read it today, the word honest is not in there either. Yeah, yeah. They made it more inclusive at some point. That's a little weird. Okay, but what about the idea of membership? Hmm.
• 6:54
  Required for membership as an honest desire to stop drinking. Why do you have to be a member of something? It's about belonging. Hmm. Fellowship. I think he and Dr. Bob, and this is me speculating- Bet. Yeah, yeah...
• 7:09
  I think they kind of figured out when they first met each other, it was a two-way street. Helped Dr. Bob out, helped Bill out, and, like, to continue on, they had to help others. Sure. Yeah.
• 7:24
  And, and membership, you know, if I'm a member in something, I feel- Yeah... wanted, valued- Right... you know. Right... that, that whole deal. Right. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too. Mm-hmm.
• 7:35
  Like, why do you need to be a member of something? But it is. It's, like, not just the community piece of it, but it, it almost gives you a little bit of self-worth and self-esteem to be a part of something. Yeah.
• 7:47
  You know, to be included in something. And then the requirements for membership, so it starts out with honest- Mm-hmm... which, uh, I think you said [laughs] they don't have anymore- Yeah... which is weird.
• 7:59
  Why would you, why would you take out honest? I've heard it opined upon that, y- you know, for those that have a lot of doubts or, like, they gotta be 100% sure, like, just stop worrying about it.
• 8:11
  You don't necessarily have to even be honest about this. Just if you have a desire to stop, come in. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I don't know. It's, it's kind of like taking- It's pretty interesting...
• 8:20
  you know, there's a part in how it works- Mm-hmm... uh, something about how it's where you, you have to find God. Yeah. May you find Him now. Yes, right.
• 8:30
  And they changed, it changed it to read, may you find Him now, from you must find Him now. Mm-hmm. So just small little tweaks. Yeah. I think earlier in the, the additions- Yeah...
• 8:42
  to where they tweaked it to be a little less you gotta, you gotta know and you gotta do- Yeah... a little less abrasive. That's the way. Yeah.
• 8:50
  Yeah, and I think, like, that follows up on something that we'll touch on throughout this, I think, this expository type of look at the book. But yeah, like, like that authoritarian,
• 9:03
  you must, you have to be honest, you know, this real sort of like or else type of thing, which I think a lot of alcoholics and drug a- drug addicts struggle with anyway. Like, we don't like to be told what to do. Mm-mm.
• 9:16
  No, we buck up against that. For sure. For sure. So yeah, I can appreciate that. Uh, I can appreciate that. All right. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking.
• 9:31
  Um, so that's kind of interesting to me because I think there's a movement going on, the whole sober curious movement. Mm-hmm. California sober. Uh, you know, not really sure that I want to totally stop drinking. Um,
• 9:47
  so does that mean that those people are not welcome in this membership? That they do not qualify for membership in Alcoholics Anonymous? Well, here's where Alcoholics Anonymous is curious in and of itself. Mm-hmm.
• 10:02
  Because every group ought to be autonomous. Mm-hmm. So it's the upside down structure. Mm-hmm.
• 10:07
  My understanding, John's group over here can basically write up their own group conscious guidelines and do whatever the heck you want. Mm-hmm. To a degree, you know.
• 10:18
  I think there's some non-negotiables, but even those at a certain point it's like, AA is not a judicial system- Right... to where it's gonna come in and say, "Well, you, here's your four demerits. Change or else." Right.
• 10:28
  It's like, no, it's the group and the individual are- Mm-hmm... at the top of the, top of the hierarchy or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's why we see a progression of weird stuff- Sure...
• 10:41
  in AA, weird to our perspective- Sure. Right... in, in what we've grown up- Right... sort of quote, grown up in AA- To, to expect. Yeah... uh, and certainly I think one of the reasons honest was taken out- Mm-hmm...
• 10:53
  to widen the, you know, the door- Mm-hmm... the doorway. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think the word desire too. Hmm. Like, I can have a desire without it being, um, like, based on certainty. Yeah. You know?
• 11:08
  So I think that gives you a little bit of wiggle room also, uh, to entertain the idea of stopping drinking.
• 11:15
  A lot of groups also, like our group and the group conscious guidelines at the start of every meeting says, "Hey, it's a closed meeting, so it's limited to persons who have a desire to stop drinking." Right.
• 11:27
  But then we follow that with, "If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you're welcome to attend." Yeah. Yeah.
• 11:33
  And so it lets people that, you know, you're not gonna show up there unless there's a good chance you got a problem with alcohol. Right. Right, right. [laughs] Yeah. Very rarely. I mean, outside of like- Very rarely...
• 11:43
  there's accidents, sure, I guess. Sure, sure. Well, yeah, and I think it's a, it's actually a requirement for a grad school for most addictions classes- That's right. Yeah...
• 11:51
  that you have to go to a, an AA meeting- That's right... or an, an NA meeting or something. Yeah. Um, yeah, that would be interesting to see some grad school kid, like, stumbling on a closed meeting. Yeah.
• 12:01
  And we used to have- Or some old-timers would be like, "Get your hand [clapping] " We had a couple, uh, nurse students- Yeah...
• 12:07
  come in, and I think we opened the meeting for them down in one of the Jana Club meetings- Mm-hmm... down in Mississippi that time. Mm-hmm. It was like, "Oh- We are supposed to do this for our whatever class- Yeah...
• 12:17
  can we be here? [laughs] Yeah, yeah. And we were like, "Yeah, come on." [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, all right, that's good. I think that, that lays sort of a foundation, sort of a framework.
• 12:27
  You know, I think why this is important to me, like this whole, this whole sort of look at the big book that we're, we're gonna go, go into, the reason I think it's important to me is because, like,
• 12:39
  so much of my time in AA was just absolutely jaded, um, by this almost stubbornness of, of some of the people that I encountered in the groups.
• 12:54
  I think I've shared this with you before, but it's the whole reason I got into, like, the counseling profession because, like, I got so tired
• 13:03
  of hearing people in meetings, and they'd be like, "You know, I'm, I'm on my third job, and I'm divorced, and, you know, I see my kids on the weekends, but by God, I'm sober." Mm-hmm.
• 13:14
  And I was just like, God, that doesn't sound like living. Doesn't sound real good to me. Yeah, it doesn't sound like a life. It doesn't sound like living, you know. Yeah.
• 13:21
  And, and I think it's, it's so important for people to grasp that it's not just about not drinking, you know.
• 13:29
  It's about addressing all the problems that come along with why we drink, and simply removing that symptom out of the bigger problem that's there doesn't alleviate the suffering, you know, or the dysfunction.
• 13:44
  Uh, and so I think, like, for me, that's why I'm so looking forward to this because I hope that we can get into a little bit more of, like, the purposefulness of Alcoholics Anonymous and the purposefulness of this book.
• 13:57
  It's not just to get you, like, dry. Yeah. And it's not just to get you clean. It's to give you an opportunity to, to pull yourself out of the bottom of the pit- Yeah...
• 14:09
  you know, and live the life that the Lord has actually intended for you to live. And, and I think that's one that I go back to my,
• 14:17
  my old Presbyterian roots, but, like, that idea of glorifying God and enjoying him forever. Um, being sober is definitely a part of it. Mm-hmm. Uh, but then there's so much more.
• 14:30
  Um, anyways, that's why, that's why I went to grad school, was just to, like, merge,
• 14:36
  you know, the tried and true wisdom of Alcoholics Anonymous with, like, a clinical approach to the real, like, hearts of the issue that I think a lot of people struggle getting to.
• 14:47
  Um, so I'm, yeah, I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward to this, man. Well, and sometimes it's a sequence thing, too, 'cause a lot of times- Right... there's that baseline- Right...
• 14:57
  and I think that's kinda the easy mode- Mm-hmm... to get into on AA- Mm-hmm... is where, okay, I'm in the door. I don't even know if I have a desire yet, but I got a problem- Mm... so I'm gonna try it out. Right.
• 15:08
  I start getting better. Mm-hmm. Some of the symptoms are subsiding. Mm-hmm. And I achieve physical sobriety. Mm-hmm. Right. And then there's a- Right... so it's like a climb, and then there's this- Right...
• 15:20
  taper period of, okay, this is good. Right. This is better. Right. But for me- Right... that taper period lasted quite a while- Mm-hmm... you know, for several years. Mm-hmm.
• 15:31
  And, you know, it's kinda growing a little bit and doing all the right things, more or less, from an AA perspective. But there, there came a time where I was like, okay, wasn't ready to drink or anything.
• 15:44
  There wasn't a threat to the physical sobriety, but the sense of, "Is this all there is"- Right, right... began to settle in. Yeah. And came seemingly from nowhere- Right... because I was very vested in
• 15:59
  solely AA- Right... for several years. Right. And, uh, for me, that, that ran out of, you know, ran out of steam. Yeah. And not to be discarded, but to be added to. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I love that.
• 16:12
  I mean, a, a, a lot of the people that I work with, you know, we've got to get-- I always tell them, like, "We've gotta get you sober. Like, we've gotta get you some clean days." Yeah.
• 16:22
  "We've gotta get some clean days to get- Foundation... these habits right forming- Yeah... so that we can then get to the underlying root stuff."
• 16:29
  And ideally, I mean, I've got so much resistance to it, but ideally, these people get into Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 16:36
  They get into AA, and they start going to meetings, and they get a sponsor, and they start cleaning some of the cobwebs. Yeah. Like you said, this, uh, the symptom stuff. Yeah.
• 16:44
  You know, they start getting, getting relief from these symptoms that they've been experiencing, and it does get them sober- Yeah... to the launching port- part to then say like- That's the starting line Right.
• 16:57
  Like, now what do I do? Yeah. Like, that's when the fun really starts, you know, cleaning out all the cobwebs and then being like, "Okay, bet, who is it? Who is it that I was created to be?" Mm-hmm.
• 17:10
  You know, that's when the journey really starts, I think. Um, all right, so yeah, this is good stuff, man. I'm looking forward to this. Yes. I'm looking forward to this. All right. Shall we? Doctor's opinion?
• 17:23
  Doctor's opinion. All right. So I think, like, you know, for those listening, uh, I think this is gonna be sort of a trial by fire type of thing. Oh, yeah.
• 17:32
  You know, ideally, in, in my brain, and like Amon and I have discussed, I think, like, what we would hope to do is just start reading through the book, uh, and, and taking pauses every now and then when something strikes you, when something strikes me.
• 17:45
  So ultimately, I think, like, we don't have, uh, a deadline to when we wanna stop. We don't have a section of the book that we desire to cover in any given segment that we've, that we podcast about.
• 17:58
  Uh, we would just wanna be free to be able to allow the spirit to work and to just explore some of this stuff and, and, and, yeah, see what happens. Well said.
• 18:07
  You know, for me, like, I'm, like I said, I'm excited 'cause it's a fresh look. I haven't done this in years. It's been, it's been a long time for me too, like- Yeah... word for word- Yeah... or whatever it becomes.
• 18:20
  Yeah. Just start at the beginning and here we go. Yeah. So I'm excited, you know. And yeah, so- Let's, let's see what happens. Let's do it. Let's see what happens. Doctor's opinion.
• 18:30
  We of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the reader will be interested in the medical estimate of the plan of recovery described in this book.
• 18:39
  Convincing testimony must surely come from medical men who have had experience with the sufferings of our members and have witnessed our return to health.
• 18:49
  A well-known doctor, chief physician at a nationally prominent hospital specializing in alcoholic and drug addiction, gave Alcoholics Anonymous this letter. All right, so- Yeah... out of the gate, let me ask you- Yeah...
• 19:02
  'cause you're in, in the, the profession of this, uh, why are we still printing this guy's doctor's opinion from the '30s? That's a great... [laughs] Uh, look, I can't, I gotta be honest, I, I wonder that as well. Yeah.
• 19:16
  You know? Why is this guy's version s- continue to be, uh, authoritative? Mm-hmm. And authoritative enough to be included in a text that's, that's, uh, basically prescribed- Mm... to help people get sober.
• 19:33
  And has undergone revisions- Revisions... for, for additions. Yes. So we've got the opportunity. But he's still there, yeah.
• 19:39
  We got the opportunity to ditch him and throw some new dudes in there with some new science in there. Uh, so I think that's a great question. You know, why is his, his- Mm... take still, uh, relevant?
• 19:53
  Um, but I think even prior to that, why is it important to have a medical, I don't know what you would call it, like a medical take anyway?
• 20:03
  Well, and, and as they even say, it's a medical, convincing testimony, testimony must surely come from medical men who've had experience. Yeah, like why? Is that, why?
• 20:13
  I mean, that sounds, that sort of sounds an old school doctors know everything- Mm-hmm... back in, you know, and they still know a lot. Sure. And no offense to doctors.
• 20:23
  Uh, but putting them sort of on a pedestal of, okay, here's somebody that's in the medical community signing off on the fact that this isn't a bunch of hokey- Mm... nonsense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 20:34
  So I think originally it could have been a validation of sorts to get people to keep reading past- Mm... the doctor's opinion. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause when was this written? 30, ooh, '39? Right. Is that right? Yeah, 1939.
• 20:49
  1939. And this guy, in the next little bit, he says- Yeah... in late 1934- Yeah... is when he was working with Bill Wilson. Yeah. So this is mid to late '30s- Sure, sure... where his opinion is being formed. Yeah.
• 21:03
  And I think also, like, we've gotta acknowledge, I mean, how did Bill Wilson get sober? He got sober in a hospital. Mm-hmm.
• 21:10
  And so I think, like, the medical community, whether he liked it or not, was a part of his story. Yeah. And I think we can see that now, like, I mean, medical interventions are necessary a lot of times- Oh, yeah...
• 21:23
  uh, when people are getting sober. I had a discussion today with a guy, um, and he was asking just about the relevance of, I don't know if you've seen this or not, but Ozempic- Mm...
• 21:33
  being, um, effective in the treatment of addictions. Uh, he was- Alcohol suppressant type of thing, or? Uh, yeah. I, you know, look, I can't, I, don't, don't quote me verbatim here, but I think it's an agonist.
• 21:47
  Um, and so I think it's a, it's a, I think it's a blocker. I'm not sure. You know, but he was curious to get my take on, like, is that type of thing necessary?
• 21:56
  And, uh, and I think in a lot of cases, some type of medical or medicine, uh, intervention is pretty necessary. Mm. Um, the problem is that it's gotta be done on a regular basis.
• 22:09
  And so without addressing the behavioral part- Mm... which is more what, what Bill was lying into than basically the whole rest of the book is, is the behavioral interventions, uh, and sort of the mental interventions.
• 22:22
  Without those pieces, uh, the medical intervention is worthless. Mm. 'Cause yeah, you're dealing with maybe thwarting off cravings, which is great. Um,
• 22:34
  but most of the medical interventions rely on the person's willingness to engage in the intervention- Yeah... on a regular basis.
• 22:42
  Um, the only thing I've heard of, I think it's a naloxone shot or a n- a naltrexone shot- Yeah...
• 22:46
  which has, like, a 30-day period of time, which I think, like, is what I, that's what I told him, was like, "I think that's the most effective medical intervention there is." Mm.
• 22:54
  Because it doesn't rely on the addict or alcoholic to confront the day-to-day- Yeah... necessity of needing it. You got a one and done for a period of time. You get a one and done. Right, for a period of time.
• 23:04
  Then you can work on the behavioral stuff. Yes. Begin to chip away at the- That's right... the starts of that. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So yeah, I think for better or worse, even, even from the very beginning,
• 23:14
  medicine has been a part of- Mm... recovery- Mm... in some way, shape, or form. Um, you know, this, like, uh, y- you know, for people that are severe alcoholics, it's very unsafe for them- Mm... to just go dry. Yeah.
• 23:30
  You know, they'll, they'll die. They'll go into seizures, and they end up in the DTs, and they end up dead. Mm. Um, so they have to be d- detoxed.
• 23:37
  Um, I had a client in my office one day that was, uh, was detoxing from alcohol. Big time alcoholic, really kind of, you know, touching case. Um, but she chugged, she was chugging beer in my office. Mm.
• 23:52
  Uh, and you know, like, a lot of times you run into, like, maybe an ethical boundary there, but I was like, "Dude, this poor girl is, like, detoxing." Yeah.
• 24:00
  As long as I was sure that she had a safe way home, I was like, "Right on." Mm. 'Cause if not, you're gonna go into seizures. Yeah. [laughs] You know? Yeah. Um, so yeah.
• 24:09
  Like, I think, I think there is a place for, for, for the medical opinion and, and medical intervention, so yeah, I think, like- It's gotta be a part of it And in some ways too, you know, they didn't have treatment centers back then.
• 24:21
  Nope. You, you go to the hospital You go to the hospital Capital H. Right So this guy was, this guy was the first counselor, treatment counselor, whether he liked to be or not. Yep. For sure.
• 24:30
  And he, I don't think he liked it very much at the time. [laughs] Uh, yeah, let's find out. Let's find out. All right. To whom it may concern, this is the start of his- Right... his letter.
• 24:40
  And- I think, have we said who the doctor is? It, not yet. It's Dr. William D. Silkworth. That's right, Dr. Silkworth. And so it's, this, the doctor's opinion consists of two letters, one short one here at the start.
• 24:51
  Yeah. Uh, it says, "I've specialized in the treatment of alcoholism for many years." So he, he was sort of a specialty in this. "In late 1934, I attended a patient," and this is Bill- Right...
• 25:04
  "who though he had been a competent businessman of good earning capacity, was an alcoholic of a type I'd come to regard as hopeless." Mm.
• 25:13
  "In the course of his third treatment, he acquired certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery." And so the, I have written kind of in my notes here, this was when Bill was involved in the Oxford Groups. Mm.
• 25:27
  And these certain ideas were what were then six steps- Right... from the Oxford Groups. Right, right, right. So he's like, "Oh." Mm-hmm. "Well, what's, what's this? This seems curious." Mm-hmm.
• 25:37
  Well, I think also worth pointing out there is just, like, his, um, his desire to express that this was a successful businessman. Yeah. It wasn't some guy that was, like, in the street,
• 25:49
  you know, that was- Didn't start hopeless and stay hopeless... exactly. Like, this was somebody that had stature, that had success, that was, like, elevated on the, the, the hierarchy, the dominance hierarchy.
• 26:00
  Um, and I think that's just important, uh, just because, like, it, it, it, it's letting the reader know right off the bat, this is a problem that, uh, extends regardless of where you are- Mm-hmm...
• 26:12
  and your st- uh, socio status. It, it, it makes no, it makes no difference. And I wonder for the n- the normal "person," if that's a known quan- I mean, that's- Mm... more known today than it used to be. Sure.
• 26:26
  It seems more, not acceptable, but, uh, that there are issues that you need to seek help for. Right. Like, when I, you know, this is 20 years ago when you and I got sober- Mm-hmm... it's like, I didn't know what AA was.
• 26:41
  Right. Like- Right... I just didn't. Right. There wasn't drinking going on or anything. Sure. I was kind of the first to [laughs] dive into that- Yeah, yeah... sea of trouble. Yeah.
• 26:49
  Um- Well, you remember that shirt from the '90s, rehab is for quitters. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know? So like, that was my idea of rehab- Mm-hmm... is for quitters, you know?
• 26:59
  And the implication there is like, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Anyways, I think something else that came to my brain though, um, where did it go? Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 27:09
  Something I see oftentimes is, like, the only thing that keeps the differentiating point between people that end up on the street, uh, and people that end up in my office are twofold. One is intelligence,
• 27:23
  and the other is affluence. Yeah. So smarts and money- Mm... keeps people afloat for a hell of a lot longer- Yeah... um- Doing the same things... doing the same- Yeah... things, right?
• 27:34
  Well, I'm successful, the businessman. You know, I'm smart. Mm-hmm. Uh, I don't, I don't have a problem with alcohol. I know how to deal with this. I'll drink after 5:00. You know, I take care of my work- Yeah...
• 27:45
  that sort of stuff, you know? Um, and again, it just kind of speaks to that idea of the hierarchy there. Mm. That like, this was a successful business, but, and I love the fact that it's his third attempt. Oh, yeah.
• 27:56
  I think that's great. Yeah. I think that's great. Like, this was the third time potentially that, uh, this Silkworth dude saw him. Yeah. And therefore, probably not even the third time that he had himself
• 28:09
  run up against the wall- Oh, yeah... or the bottom. Yeah. Oh, and we'll see that play out- Yeah... later on, right? Yep. Right, how many times have we said, "I quit." Mm-hmm.
• 28:18
  "You know, I'm done, and I switch from this to that." What's the one? The, the liquor to beer, you know, or just milk. Trying every different possible thing.
• 28:25
  Yeah, he's putting it in his milk or something like that at one point, you know? [laughs] It won't hurt me if I mix it in that. Totally fine. [laughs] Everything's totally normal. Whiskey and milk is a great combination.
• 28:34
  Oh, gosh. [laughs] All right. As part of his rehabilitation, he commenced to present his conception of those six steps to other alcoholics. So kind of 12-step stuff right out of the gate.
• 28:47
  Impressing upon them that they must do likewise with still others. This has become the basis of a rapidly growing fellowship of these men and their families. Mm. This man and over 100 others appear to have recovered.
• 29:03
  I mean, that's the summation of the whole deal right there. Right. Hey, here's some spiritual principles that seem to be working for these people- Mm... that they're giving to me.
• 29:12
  I think if I share them with you, they might work for you. Oh, and I'm staying sober while I'm doing it. Right. You better do the same thing- Right... and then we'll all, we'll all be okay. Right, right, right.
• 29:23
  Well, what I love about that too, what stuck out to me there is that, uh, the inclusion of family. Family. Yeah. I think that's cool because it speaks to- Yeah...
• 29:31
  just the systemic nature, that it's a problem that's not just a person. It's not the identified patient. In my lingo, it's the family system- Yeah... that's been affected here.
• 29:42
  And, and the family needs to be taken care of. Of course, the addict needs to be taken care of, but the family does also. Yeah. So I think that's kind of cool. And so far, no mention about medical terminology.
• 29:53
  I'm just saying. I personally know scores of cases who were of the type with whom other methods had failed completely. Mm. These facts appear to be of extreme medical importance.
• 30:06
  Don't you wish you knew what the other, uh- Yeah... things they tried were? Where, where's the footnote there? [laughs] Right? What are we talking, bloodletting- Tell me more... leeches? [laughs] You know?
• 30:15
  Like, I'd love to know, like, what the other- Shock therapy... right, what the other interventions were.
• 30:20
  These are, these facts appear to be of extreme medical importance because of their extraordinary possibilities of rapid growth inherent in this group. Mm. They may mark a new epoch in the annals of alcoholism. Mm.
• 30:35
  These men may well have a remedy for thousands of such situations. You may rely absolutely on anything they say about themselves. Huh. Yeah, so there's- So, so this guy's like-... stamp of approval... yeah.
• 30:48
  In, in very short time, he's gone from hopeless case on his third attempt, was once a s- a successful businessman, and, you know, he's freaking hopeless now, to, hey, he's actually helping himself and others.
• 31:02
  You can rely on anything- Yeah... that they say. Yeah, yeah. What do you think about that phrase, rapid growth? What do you make of that? Well, he, he sees, he's seeing the spark here. Mm-hmm.
• 31:13
  He's seeing the spark, the infectious spark of, you know, he's, he qualifies himself as being a specialist in the treatment of alcoholism for many years. So he sees the depravity, which I can only imagine is just,
• 31:27
  you know, so much worse, just the physical stages of it at that- Right... point in time. Right, right, right. In the, the hospital settings. He sees the depravity- Mm-hmm...
• 31:35
  sees the need, and then, oh man, what is this guy, Bill- Mm... he's got a light in his eye. Mm-hmm. He's got a spark of something. Mm-hmm. So I think he was just seeing the beginnings. Yeah. Yeah.
• 31:47
  And almost a prophetic- Sure... note here- Sure... depending on where it was actually written in the timeline of, of Bill's events. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:55
  Well, I can't help but, like, juxtapose that also with, like, the chronic, "You're sober. Like, we've got to get you some clean days." Yeah. We've got to get some clean days to get- Foundation...
• 32:04
  these habits right- Yeah... forming so that we can then get to the underlying root stuff. And ideally, I mean, I've got so much resistance to it, but ideally, these people get into Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 32:17
  They get into AA, and they start going to meetings, and they get a sponsor, and they start cleaning some of the cobwebs. Yeah. Like you said, this, uh, the symptom stuff. Yeah.
• 32:25
  You know, they start getting, getting relief from these symptoms that they've been experiencing, and it does get them sober. Yeah.
• 32:33
  Yeah, you know, there's that, that hopeless depravity and just the long suffering of, of alcoholism with once, you know, third try, but once he turns the corner- Mm-hmm...
• 32:44
  to just, like, this experience of ri- rapid growth.
• 32:49
  And I don't know, man, like, and if we could get into this too, once we get to the steps and stuff, but, like, through my, my understanding of the initial, you know, experience of, of, of Bill and the other early alcoholics is, like, these steps were done in, like, a weekend.
• 33:07
  Yeah. Um, you know, and I get it. Like, we'll parse it. Uh, we'll talk about that. Um, but I think that also is indicative of the rapid growth that people can experience when they get serious about doing the work. Yeah.
• 33:22
  Like, if you're willing to do the work, you can experience this rapid growth. It doesn't have to be this month-long drag out process. "Oh, it's taken me a month to do step four," and, like, that kind of stuff.
• 33:33
  Like, let's hit the ground running, brother. How fast do you want to get better? Right. Right. I remember that being a, a mantra of- Mm-hmm... you know, much more than it, than it has been lately.
• 33:43
  Maybe I need to just bring it- Mm... back myself. Sure, sure. But it's like, you know, it goes to the affluence- Sure... and the intelligence piece, I, I think a little bit- Mm-hmm...
• 33:54
  of just where we are, uh, this, this area and the recovery area. Mm. It's easier to maintain a kinda bare minimum. Yeah, right, right. The urgency maybe isn't there. There's, yeah, there's a lack of urgency- Yeah...
• 34:09
  that, that hinders- Yeah... rapid growth. Yeah, yeah. Uh- Mm... 'cause I, in my early, you know, I went to treatment- Mm-hmm... and I feel like it was a fr- kinda like I said before, this long- Right... tapering period.
• 34:23
  Right. To where I'm at zero, my zero, you know, and there's, there's worse zeros, but to get up to here took a little bit of concerted effort. Right. And then I was like, "Okay, well, I, I guess we're good now," right?
• 34:38
  [laughs] Right, right, right. And there, there lacked immediacy for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and in some ways I envy that immediacy- Mm-hmm... you know, in the everyday just living life.
• 34:49
  I think it gives fuel to- Right... rapid growth. Yeah, that desperateness. Yeah. Right? Um, so yeah, just a, a, aside, like, so these guys had, I think, like, maybe three days- Mm... um,
• 35:05
  to be able to help the other alcoholic that was in the bed next to them. Yeah.
• 35:10
  And so, like, there was, to your point, the sense of urgency and immediacy because they knew that, like, after three days, after they got this guy stabilized, he was out. He's out.
• 35:20
  So we gotta- For better or worse- We gotta get going now... he's on the street. Yeah. You know, we gotta get through this stuff now. Uh, and yeah, I think you're right.
• 35:28
  Like, the, the desperateness, I think, uh, of, of a lot of people, even as desperate as they appear, I mean, you've probably seen this. I know I've seen it. It tends to wane- Mm-hmm... uh, after the pressure's taken off.
• 35:43
  Oh, yeah. You know, after they get stabilized, and they get 50% things aren't so bad, and the wife's not bugging me anymore, you know. The heat's off at work, and eh, you know, what step are you on?
• 35:55
  Eh, I'm on step, I'm on step three. How long you been on step three? Eh, you know, a couple months. [laughs] And it's like, what? What are y'all, what are you doing? Yeah. You know?
• 36:08
  Like, what happened to the, I don't know, dude. Maybe we're just old. I know I'm old, but like, you know, the old 90 in 90, baby. Like- Yeah... you hit the ground running. Yeah. Like, this shit was no joke.
• 36:18
  Take, take away some consequences, and we get our opinions back real quick. Yeah, man. Like, back in the day, this shit was no joke. Yeah. You know? But it seems like now it's like, "Oh, yeah, just gonna take a break."
• 36:30
  You know, it goes from like- You'll, you'll be all right... it goes from, I, like, I can't tell you how many times I've seen it in my office. It goes from, "I have to stop drinking." Mm-hmm. "I'm losing everything.
• 36:40
  I have to stop drinking," to 15, 20 days later, "Well, yeah, I don't know. I think maybe- Wasn't that bad... it was just a, yeah, maybe that was just a thing, you know?" I don't know, man. I don't know.
• 36:53
  So I love that though. I love that, that, uh, that, that, that take on just, like, the, the rapid growth that we can have if we're serious about getting it done. Mm. Bill would've liked the Shawshank Redemption. Yeah.
• 37:07
  Get busy living or get busy dying. Oh, yeah, brother. Let's go. [laughs] Let's go. That's Shawshank. That's what it's all about. Yeah, for sure. [laughs] For sure. All right, so that was Dr. Silkworth. That's Dr.
• 37:19
  Silkworth. That's his stamp of approval. That's it. That's his first. Yeah. We'll get into the next one next time. Yeah. [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening. You can find us online at progressandperfection.com.
• 37:31
  [upbeat music]