Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 307: How I Wrote Birdman with Oscar® Winner Alexander Dinelaris

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BPS 307: How I Wrote Birdman with Oscar® Winner Alexander Dinelaris · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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  You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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  podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof
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  screen Writing Podcast, Episode number three zero seven. Writing is easy. All
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  you have to do is sit at a typewriter and bleed. Ernest Hemingway broadcasting
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  from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
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  that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
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  business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's
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  your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof
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  Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now. Today's show
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  is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services,
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  Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals
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  of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories
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  micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason
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  to get coverage from a reader that used to reading tempole movies when your movie
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  is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus
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  on that. At Bulletproof script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios,
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  Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your
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  screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to cover my
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  screenplay dot com. Well, guys, Today on the show we have Oscar
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  winning screenwriter Alex Blanaris, and Alex is one of the creative forces behind the
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  remarkable Oscar winning film Birdman. Now, Alex and I sit down and have
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  a very deep conversation about what it was like coming up, how he turned
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  down working on very big movies with some big directors, where he almost got
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  ousted by his agency, how he got his agency in the first place,
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  and what happened when he was asked to be a writer on Birdman, and
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  so much more. This is a inspiring and educational conversation. So sit back,
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  relax, and enjoy my conversation with Alex Delaris. I'd like to welcome
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  to the show, Alex Delaris. How you doing, Alex, I'm doing
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  well. How are you? I'm doing great? My friend well, first
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  off, great name. I'd like the first name. It it works.
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  I think I think it means leader of men if you look at That's what
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  my mother used to tell me. Yeah, from Alexander. Of course your
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  mother would tell you that because you're Latino, and that's what my mother would
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  tell me as well. That's right, that's right, I tell you.
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  It's a really funny thing right now. So you know my relationship with my
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  dear friend and my director alesand calls me, never calls me Alex always calls
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  me Tokayo her namesake, right, And then I was producing films with the
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  two directors that I'm now developing films. Are talking about this later anyway.
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  One of them is her name is Alex from Chicago. Right now I'm doing
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  a Colombian I'm producing this Colombian artist film. Her name is Alisanda and her
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  director is Alekandra Mahia. So every time we're on the call, you're like,
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  which Ali Alex three, Alex two seven, Alex is? We have
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  no idea who's who? And growing up I couldn't meet one Alex. But
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  now they're everywhere. I know they weren't as popular back then, but listen
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  Man. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I've been a
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  fan of your work and what you've been doing outside of obviously Birdman and other
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  things you've done as well. But my first question to you, sir,
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  is how and why did you want to get into this insane insanity that is
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  the film industry. I mean I sort of backed into it a little bit.
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  I grew up in this tiny little town called East Rockaway, Long Island,
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  and I had a movie theater across the street from me, one of
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  those big old movie there is called the Criterion, and it was one of
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  those ones back because I'm I'm I'm old now, so I'm talking about like
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  late seventies, and it would one movie theater, big curtain balcony. They
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  played one movie. If it was good, they played it for six months.
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  If people were coming, like they'd never change. And my house wasn't
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  the greatest place for me to hang out in, so I used to sneak
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  across the street and just sneak in a movie theater and watch movies all day.
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  And that's when I fell in love with movies. So I was like
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  ten years old and I was watching movies like Cramer versus Kramer and you know,
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  Great Santini and Justice for All These were all my favorite movies. They
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  didn't Rocky Too and stuff like that, but I was watching anything that was
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  there. So then in high school I fell in love with theater, and
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  for one second it was going to be a theater actor. And then one
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  second later I knew I wanted to direct theater. So then I studied theater.
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  And I had a weird life. Man like I had a weird life.
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  I didn't. I had some tough times, but I found myself in
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  a little university in North Miami called Barry University. Oh yeah, I know
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  Barry very well. You know Barry. There you go. Well, I
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  was at Barry for two years, and then I came back to New York
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  because again I was a total mess. But I was studying theater, and
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  then I was in the restaurant business because I had to make a living.
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  And one day I wrote a script for a friend and somebody saw it and
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  liked it. Next thing, I knew, people wanted me to write instead
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  of do anything else. And it was easier to do when I was working
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  in the restaurant business because you could get home at two in the morning at
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  right. You couldn't get home at two in the morning and direct anything,
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  you know what I mean, I couldn't for the time off. And then
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  my scripts just got Danny Ayello is actually my fairy godfather. I know if
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  you know, Danny rest in peace, Danny the unbelievable actor from Do the
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  Right Thing and Moonstruck. And Danny got a play of mine and fell in
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  love with it and said, who the hell are you? I need to
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  work with you. And we did a bunch of readings and he was like
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  my fairy godfather. And then he got me to Johnny Planko, who's a
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  very famous manager who handled like Lauren McCall on, Peter O'Toole and all of
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  you. He asked, yeah, I mean more like Anthony Quinn, Paul
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  Schrader. Now, I mean it's amazing. And Johnny, because I was
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  doing a play with Danny who represented, said do you want a manager?
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  I was like you He said yeah. I said, you're You're the only
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  person I would be the only person on your client list that I didn't know.
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  And he said, nonetheless, I think you're going to be good.
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  And he signed me. Got me to Cia. CIA, got me Alejandro,
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  Alexander Yantidu and I did Beautiful Together, the first of our dem movie.
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  I wrote a four drafts of that before I eased out, and then
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  we got back on Birdman and the rest is history four films and then the
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  rest of my film stuff. But I've done plays and Broadway and stuff as
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  well. That's how I got there, That's how you got them. So
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  it's it's interesting because so many, so many people listening right now are still,
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  you know, working in the restaurant business trying to get their scripts made.
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  But you were also in New York at the time, right, so
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  it was a little difference. Kind of like I always tell people, if
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  you want to get hit by a car, you got to go where the
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  traffic is. That's fair enough. Yeah, and New York and LA are
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  kind of those two places. Would you agree, I would agree. I
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  mean, eventually you have to find your way there, because if you're going
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  to creep up into a writer's room or if you're you know, you can
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  write scripts from anywhere and submit them and but yeah, better that you're mingling,
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  meeting somebody sees your staff. Of course, your your analogy is right,
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  Yeah, And it's interesting that it's it's this this business in general,
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  there's oh, you always need to have like a Donny Brasco style person,
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  not an Italian, but I'm saying, a person who vouches for you to
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  give you some sort of credibility to open a door. Like Daniello was your
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  guy, was your fairy god, you know father. Essentially he was the
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  one and when people said, oh, if Danny's looking at him, he
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  must be so he just need one person to open that creaked that door open,
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  and then your talent. I think that's an interesting point because those those
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  people that you say that might be listening, all of you out there that
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  might be listening that are that are trying to get there or still work in
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  a restaurant business, which I did for twenty four years. By the way,
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  I wasn't a successful writer, so I was almost forty so um.
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  But there's also so we don't jump straight to Danny I Yellow because you could
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  be listening to this going like, Yo, how the hell do I meet
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  Danny I Yellow? That's the problem. But that's not how it happens either,
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  right. How how that happened was I wrote a play. I did
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  that play in a staged reading. Somebody in the reading was a friend of
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  my friend who was an agent, like commercial agent, a guy named Doug
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  Keston from paradig Amazing Commercial Agent. Amazing guy goes to the He loved the
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  play and at the time, the actor that I had in the part was
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  going out, but he loved the play so much. He's like, can
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  I help you, you know, find somebody. I was like, oh
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  my god, that man. At the time. By the way, I'm
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  living in a eight foot by five foot room in Brooklyn eating Chinese food for
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  five days, you know what I mean, like terrible. And he calls
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  me up a few days later and says, how would you feel about Danny
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  Aello? I'm like, were you crazy? Like that was like right,
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  like, well, let's get it to him. And there's a funny story
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  about that. I won't go into it, but my point was it wasn't
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  just oh, hi, here's that Danny Aello. Of course, because it
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  was doing a little reading of a play in a little place where a bunch
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  of friends. Somebody was there. He said, I liked it. So
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  it's not just you know, it's about how you build relationships, how you
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  network. And this gets back to your ago where the traffic is. The
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  more people you know, if you're doing good work, somebody notices, tell
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  somebody else, and then you get to Danny Illo, which gets you through
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  the fence to whatever happens next. So there is a you know what I
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  mean? Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you one hundred and ten percent.
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  The point is that, yeah, you have to just do work because
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  you didn't write. You didn't write that first script thinking that you were going
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  to get someone like the Danniella to open a door for you. You were
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  just doing the work. But I have to ask you, man, and
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  this is something I think a lot of people listening would would identify with.
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  How did you keep going until? I mean, all those years you said,
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  twenty four years in the restaurant business. We'll be right back after a
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  word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. What kept you
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  going following the dream of being a writer and a director. I mean,
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  but I I let it die. It was never a writer. It was
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  always I just wanted to direct theater. You know, I never thought I
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  would be a writer. I didn't plan on it, so I let it
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  die. I was very dysfunctional. I grew up in a house that was
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  no good. I was drinking too much booze when I was too young.
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  I lived on the street for a couple of months in New York City.
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  Like it was a mess, man. I couldn't have my lights on.
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  You know. It was bad. But I always loved it, right.
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  I love theater, I loved stories. I love film always. And then
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  I got into the restaurant business. What happens is you sort of get numb
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  because when you have an to pay your bills and it just gets you enough,
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  and then you you're so depressed that you're not doing what you love to
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  do that you finish work at the restaurant at one, and then you drink
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  your face off till four, you know, and then you rise some repeat
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  for about what turns into two days to ten years, you know. And
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  I did everything there was to do in a restaurant, from washing dishes and
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  peeling shrimp to owning one um which you know, uh, in general,
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  managing all that stuff. But one day I just quit it. Um two
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  thousand or something. I just quit it and ran to Florida. But then
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  I said, I'm gonna try it. So I wrote the plays and then
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  it worked. UM so I didn't keep the dream alive in the middle.
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  I just envied the dream and it was really depressing time for me. Um
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  and still to this day when i'm you know, I swear to God like
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  this is my house, this is my office, as my man cave down
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  here because you have a drum set back there. So oh yeah, I
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  was gonna say this is a very Yeah, my Yankees baseballs are there?
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  Is that a golden globe back there? Yeah? I think, yeah,
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  of course. And there's no night. There's no night that I don't or
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  morning that I don't wake up and come down here and go what the hell
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  happened? Like I I wake up every day like I mean it like super
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  grateful like like that. But it's crazy, you know how I got from
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  there to here, and that for anybody listening like that, like there is
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  a road, it just takes. The road is the road, you know.
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  And I think people get to scards everybody. Oh you do things,
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  you submit it. Yeah, but you know agents aren't reading your ship and
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  you're not setting them straight to a studio like it seems impossible, but it
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  is. Like you said about doing the work, about having friends read,
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  about opening up your circles to people who are more in the business, and
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  your talent hopefully will naturally float you up, you know, toward the top
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  um if you if you network enough and give your stuff enough and have good
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  soul and help other people, and you know, I believe that I'm living
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  proof of the luckiest son of a bitch in the world. Yeah, it's
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  it's it's a beautiful I love what you're saying. It's actually really beautiful because
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  it's there's so much hardship trying to get into this business. It is it
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  is absolutely brutal, so arguably the most difficult business in the world to crack
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  into. Really it's you're you could be a brain surgeon faster, honestly,
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  Yeah, or more directly, that's true. Absolutely, Yeah, There's there's
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  no question because there is no path. And I love when you said the
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  path is the path. The journey is the journey, and it's different for
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  every single person. No one else is going to write a play who then
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  a friend season than an Agencyson. Then it gets to a Danny, a
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  yellow caliber actor who then opens a door for you. They get you.
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  Nobody's gonna pat that. And my biggest mistake growing you know, coming up
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  in the business is I just started seeing everybody else's I was like, Oh,
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  that's how Robert Rodriguez did it, Well, maybe that's what I should
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  do, or that's how Kevin Smith did it, because I came up in
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  the nineties. So it's like, yeah, and then it ever works.
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  Yeah, you have stories about him giving blood and raising the money from you
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  direct hearny filmmakers I've talked to. It was like, yeah, I gave
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  blood too, And I'm like, how did that work out for you?
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  Bro? I'm still hustling, man. I'm like, that was his God,
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  that's his bad. So you gotta find that path for yourself, I
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  think is the big thing. So you finally get to to Cia, you
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  get to means that's but yeah. But at the time, but when you
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  met Alejandrew, was Alejandro Alejandro yet or was he just uh? He had
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  just finished No, he had just got won the Golden Globe for and was
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  nominated for all the Oscars from Babble. Oh that's right, the Babble.
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  He did better do that. Also, he was already out the Hunter,
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  he was already on the battle. He did his first three movies with an
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  unbelievably talented writer named Yer Mariaga who twenty one Grahams and Battle Right, and
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  then those guys parted ways and he was looking for another writer. And this
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  agent in New York from CIA, who Johnny Plant Danny and by introduced me
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  to Johnny. Johnny submitted my stuff to CIA. At CIA, there was
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  a theater agent named Olivier Saltan who's still my agent, one of my best
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  friends. And Olivier fell in love with my play Still Life and Crazy because
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  Alejandra, I think we've just moved from Paradigm to CIA, I believe.
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  And he was looking and he had parted ways with Giermon and he was looking
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  for writers and CIA since he was a new client, and he was,
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  you know, just on babbling. He's you know, up and coming as
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  one of the biggest directors. And they sent him a pile of scripts.
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  And the way Alejandro told me my story was like he read through a million
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  scripts and called CIA. It was like, it's not working. I can't
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  find it. Went through the bottom of his pile and there was my play,
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  not a movie script, my play Still Life, and he read it
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  and they called up you know, his people CEA and said, who the
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  hell's that guy? I need to talk to that guy, and they called
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  me in New York City. I'll never forget. I was in my sweatpants,
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  eating a TV dinner off a trade with my wife watching the Yankees played
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  Toronto Blue Jays. I'll never forget it. And I got a phone call.
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  It's like, is this Alexander? And I said yeah. I said
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  this is I read your Place to Life. It's full of blood. I
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  want to drink your blood. That was literally the first thing mother said to
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  me. Ever, that's what he said. And my wife was swooning because
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  she thought he was so good. And she's like, oh, and I'm
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  like, what is happening right now? He's like, can you come to
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  it late tomorrow? I got on a day I'm playing. That was a
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  Tuesday night. I got on a plane the next day and the next night
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  he and I were having dinner discussing what would become the film Beautiful. Two
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  days later he called my agents and he's like, I want alex he's my
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  writer and I joined him in Spain and we wrote beautiful. Dude. It's
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  crazy, bro, that's insane. The same These are the kindest stories that
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  are heard about in the in the in the back alleys of Hollywood, and
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  you're like, this is what happened. This is you. It happened for
• 16:51
  you too. And they'll say these kind of stories, but that's such an
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  Literally, the universe was guiding you. There's just no utch, there's no
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  other explanation, there's no makes no sense. And make it a pile of
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  scraps from all these imagine the famous street writers that were in the pile.
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  And then he picks out a play at the bottom by play from New York.
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  Yeah, I remember somebody's done to me. I forget who was.
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  But are we calling the story? He's like like they eat told, Like
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  I forget who it was. Somebody high up and see one of the you
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  know, owner Kevin or Bran or something, and he was like, uh,
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  you know Alex, I found my writer, Alex. They were like,
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  oh my god, that's amazing. Why didn't we think of it?
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  It's a perfect you know marriage. And then they called New York and like,
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  who the hell is Alex? And they were like, oh, he's
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  a playwright. Olivia hasn't like get on the phone, he needs to get
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  on a plane. And I was like, that's that's how that's how that
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  went. And did you ever did youervery see the movie The Big Picture with
• 17:48
  Kevin Bacon? Yeah it was. It's kind of had a little bit of
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  that vibe too, like who is who's this guy? He's the highest guy
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  we need to get hold. Yeah, nobody knew me. I was brand
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  new. So all right, so you fly out? Do you fly out
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  of Spain to meet on the hundre starting? I flew from New York to
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  La okay, oh to La. And then well when you started to work
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  with with Alejandro, Yeah, as as a collaboration. Well, first of
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  all, when you went to meet him that night, Dude, what is
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  that like? Bro? How do you look like? I can't I can't
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  even tell you the joy of it? Like, I'm I'm a schmuck,
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  I'm not making any money. Um, But I get out there. He
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  picks me up for dinner in his car. We go to this Italian restaurant
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  that we still go to now. It's a little outdoor place like not it
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  doesn't look super fancy, but it's really good. The food's great and he
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  loves it and they're letting him smoke out on the patio, which in La
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  you can imagine good um. But we're we immediately hit it off, right,
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  so we're like three bottles of wine in and Alexandro I don't know if
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  you remember the movie Beautiful, but Alejandro like gets up from the table and
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  he's like no. And then we're on the water and I don't go to
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  sea. You looked up dead body floating like eyes looking at your dead body,
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  and there's everybody eating right around this in their instaurant. When he get
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  so passionate and he just starts doing this another money and all of a sudden,
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  like a grave yard in the water, and I was just I loved
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  every minute. But you can just picture the people nearby going, how is
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  that? La? It's just it? And we yeah, we thought in
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  love on our first day. Yeah, oh that's amazing. And so let
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  me ask you, working with someone like Alejandro, who's obviously a genius,
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  He's an absolute genius, what are some of the lessons you learned as a
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  writer working with him, specifically on that first project. And then we'll get
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  to Birdman. Well, the first project was amazing because here I am in
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  this whirlwind that I go, I go to Spain, to Barcelona where that
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  movie takes place, and it's about street people, um African immigrants who sell
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  the purses, and the video takes like a big part of the story.
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  And the story is how he added out of them, has two kids and
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  he's dying and he has no place to leave them. His wife is sort
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  of bipolar, and he doesn't have family, and he and that money.
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  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back
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  to the show. This whole thing, it's so sad. What do I
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  do with this? What do I do with these kids? Um? So
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  we went to Barcelona for a week or two. We did the research,
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  We interviewed, we went to the little apartments of these people and how hard
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  they work and how tough they live. It was really uh. And then
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  saw sites and you know, you sort of got what we what we needed.
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  And then he said make it your own, you know, now make
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  it your own. And I went back. I moved to Barcelona for about
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  a month. My wife is my best partner, UM, my wife Nila,
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  and she was like, just go because I wanted to be there.
• 20:45
  So about the streets in Barcelona. So I lived there and I just typed
• 20:48
  it out and I handed it to Alejandro and he said to me like,
• 20:52
  this is not what I wanted. And I was like, I thought he
• 20:55
  was kidding at first, and he was like, no, this all of
• 20:59
  a sudden he said it sad. I was like, oh shit, like
• 21:02
  he means this. And we did all the work together. We talked about
• 21:03
  it like I didn't, and he said, I'm gonna go to Mexico.
• 21:07
  I gonna write a few scenes and then I'll send them to you and you'll
• 21:08
  see more of the tone. And I was like, oh my god,
• 21:10
  it's for real. And I remember sitting on a couch and I gotta admit
• 21:12
  I was. I was crying like I would be too. My wife was
• 21:18
  just you know, and I was just so sad, not only because it
• 21:19
  was Allahnder, but because, like I felt strongly about what I had done.
• 21:25
  No, no, the story um. And then he sent me some
• 21:27
  scenes and I realized, oh no, I'm not I liked him. We
• 21:34
  liked each other so much, and I'm like, I can't write that story.
• 21:40
  So I talked to Nila, I talked to my agents, and then
• 21:42
  finally one night I got on the phone with Alahameder and I was like,
• 21:45
  brother, I can't write this. You're a genius and this movie is going
• 21:51
  to be amazing, but I'm not your guy, um, and I'll make
• 21:56
  it worse because I don't believe that that isn't my understanding and I'm too close
• 22:03
  after a month with these people that I wrote, but you can use everything
• 22:07
  I wrote and I'm sorry. He's like, well, you know, Getti
• 22:11
  and I used to hammer it out, and I'm like, yeah, if
• 22:12
  I thought we were close, but we're not close, and I'm just going
• 22:15
  to hurt your movie. And it was funny because it was the only guy
• 22:19
  that understood, like I remember the night, I think Hilly count it the
• 22:23
  same way. We both was really sad about it. We were like we
• 22:26
  knew it was strictly about the work and he respected that and I respected him
• 22:32
  so much. And that was it, and I didn't talk to him again
• 22:36
  until he was going to do the premiere, which not a premiere screening at
• 22:40
  the Solo House in New York and he invited me, and I was so
• 22:42
  nervous. I brought my friend Olivier, my agent, just to hold his
• 22:45
  leg because I was so nervous, and everybody was there, like Julian Stable
• 22:49
  was there and I was fun. So I was there and I watched the
• 22:53
  movie and a lot of the stuff for the father and the kids stuff was
• 22:56
  still had my stuff and spirit in it, and and so that relieved me
• 23:03
  a little bit. And then the other stuff was the other stuff. Um
• 23:07
  and uh. He was so nice about it, and we have lunch the
• 23:11
  next day and he said, what did you think? I like? What
• 23:14
  am I supposed to say? I was like, it's a beautiful movie.
• 23:17
  I still stand where I stood before. I think when it focuses on this
• 23:21
  thing, it's I feel more of that. When it doesn't, I sort
• 23:23
  of don't. But and you know, like my reps and people stopped talking
• 23:30
  to me for a little while because they thought, here's this here's this new
• 23:33
  guy, and he's a vain, crazy, difficult and I was none of
• 23:37
  those things. But they didn't know that. Alejandro knew that. And sorry
• 23:41
  to make this story longer than it should, but so I resigned from the
• 23:45
  film. I was on the first name on special credits. UM. I
• 23:48
  remember sitting with my friend Brad Frying and watching and clip of Javier on the
• 23:53
  Oscars that year, and I standing my buddy Brad, who was an actor
• 23:56
  who standing right next thing I'll never forget, and they were showing the clip
• 24:00
  of how Yet It because he was nominated for Best Actor for that, and
• 24:03
  I said, look at that, Brad. I said, that's the closest
• 24:04
  I'm ever going to get to an Academy award right there, like that thing.
• 24:08
  And Brad was like, get a whiskey, like I was. I
• 24:14
  was screwed. I'm bying. Yeah. And then so at my agents,
• 24:18
  you know, we're not pleased, and understandably, but they didn't hear the
• 24:22
  whole story. And then I went to I used to write in Puerto Rico.
• 24:25
  I used to write on the West coast, and he Sabello whenever I
• 24:27
  went to go write. And I was working on a musical of the Bodyguard
• 24:30
  of all Things, the Lawrence Hazed In movie, and I was doing a
• 24:34
  musical for England. And I got there and I got a call from Alecandro
• 24:37
  and he said, to Gayo, he said, I have an idea.
• 24:42
  It's a comedy, dark comedy in one take, and I want you to
• 24:47
  write it with me. And I said, man, nothing would make me
• 24:51
  happier. We have unfinished business and I would love that, and he said,
• 24:53
  do you mind because the guy who the guys who replaced me were Nico
• 24:56
  and Armando are beautiful. They're the ones that are quite with Alendro. He's
• 25:00
  like, do you mind if I bring this guy Nico in with me?
• 25:03
  And I was like, miss mother, Yeah, sure, what am I
• 25:06
  saying? No? Um? But you know, then I got a call
• 25:10
  from my age and who was like, hey, I heard you. Yeah,
• 25:12
  of course, of course. Um, it's understanduddy, it's understand buddy,
• 25:17
  pal Yeah I heard. Yeah, I heard you had a kid two
• 25:21
  years ago. UM. But like I said, I understand it, I
• 25:26
  really do. UM. So then we flew to New York. I met
• 25:29
  Nico and it took Niko and I one day to become brothers. And then
• 25:33
  Nko and I were writing Birdman. UM. And then Armando came in and
• 25:38
  was doing album the story and Ala Handro you know, had the idea and
• 25:41
  and and I'm sorry, And that's that's how that happened. I thought I
• 25:45
  turned that off. Um, that's how that happened, in the craziest,
• 25:52
  in the craziest way. Um. We ended up working on Birdman and that's
• 25:56
  how that story went. So I guess I risked every thing I didn't mean
• 26:00
  to. I still I don't know if I went back in time now,
• 26:03
  I probably wouldn't have done it again. And my wife was a champ for
• 26:07
  standing by my side, as was my age in Olivier. Because you imagine
• 26:11
  how crazy that sounds. Well, yeah, you know, I mean you
• 26:15
  man, that's I mean, brother man. That is a hell of a
• 26:18
  story because you just you get your shot with arguably, you know, one
• 26:22
  of the greatest directors of his time, of his generation, and everyone knew
• 26:27
  he was going in that direction without question, and you decide to have in
• 26:33
  Hollywood integrity, as I put it out in quote, integrity for the story.
• 26:41
  Like it sounds insane, this is Hollywood talking, this is a Hollywood
• 26:45
  thing. How the agents looked at it. But Ole Hunter understood where you
• 26:48
  were going with it and respected it because you're right. Because a Hollywood director
• 26:53
  the would have a Hollywood writer who might have not had the same sensibility as
• 26:59
  you would have been like, this is my shot, I'm gonna bammer it
• 27:02
  out with him, and it might have made the film worst, but you
• 27:03
  outed up. She said, this is nothing. I probably should have um,
• 27:07
  but I did. I just respected him so much, and I was
• 27:11
  like, I'm not going to get in the way of this genius, Like
• 27:12
  I'm gonna write that badly. I'm gonna write that badly. And this is
• 27:17
  my first shot. And and you know, like I said, I don't
• 27:21
  I don't know if I do the same thing again today, I'd like to
• 27:22
  think I would. Um. I was making no money at the time when
• 27:27
  I quit, you know, as making two plays off Broadway in New York,
• 27:30
  which pays you all about twenty five thirty thousand dollars in total in some
• 27:34
  of the biggest off Broadway theaters in New York, by the way, and
• 27:37
  they still you know, there's no money in it. And you know,
• 27:41
  my wife was making all the money at that time. She calls me her
• 27:45
  startup. Now to this day, I love that, Yeah she does.
• 27:49
  But she stood by me. But yeah, Alejandro knew what I was saying,
• 27:53
  and I was saying, I'm not going to get in the way of
• 27:56
  your vision of this of this film, and nobody else got it, but
• 28:00
  he got it and then came right back to me. And now we've done
• 28:02
  four together. We're still doing stuff together where brothers, Um, I love
• 28:06
  him, So it just worked out, man. It definitely worked out the
• 28:11
  way it's supposed to work out for you. And it's the thing that's great
• 28:15
  about it is looking in from the inside out. From outside in it's insanity,
• 28:18
  but from the inside out it makes all the sense in the world.
• 28:22
  It looking back, yes, looking back, looking back when you're in it,
• 28:27
  not so much. Now. I have to tell you about bird Man
• 28:30
  Man. I was that year. I heard about Birdman, and obviously it
• 28:37
  looked it looked really interesting, and I was a fan of Alejandrew and I
• 28:40
  watched it and I'll never forget my first impression of Birdman. I turned to
• 28:45
  my wife and I said, Oh, my god, that's what a director
• 28:48
  is. I haven't seen a director direct, really direct, and have such
• 28:53
  a clear vision in such a long time. And that's not a slight on
• 28:57
  any other director, just at that moment. His vision was so vivid for
• 29:03
  that film, and it just was like he took you by the nose and
• 29:07
  carried you through the entire movie and the performances and the one shot. And
• 29:11
  I'm like, what is going on when you're writing that with him? It's
• 29:17
  insane story. Yeah, everything is a little bit like it's insane. The
• 29:22
  characters are all over the place, meaning that like, there's so many different
• 29:26
  things going on in that story. How did you keep it all? That's
• 29:30
  I guess that's why you needed three or four writers on it. We'll kind
• 29:33
  of keep it all in check. I would tell me Alejandra had a strong
• 29:37
  vision of what it was. He had a very strong vision, and Armando
• 29:44
  as a director as well, and a very good one at that. They
• 29:48
  tend to be story guys, I mean Alejanders generating a story, and Nico
• 29:52
  and I are the sort of writing guys, like how do we make that?
• 29:56
  How do we put that into you know, exterior Saint James Theater,
• 30:00
  New York City. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 30:10
  and now back to the show. I think, like I said, Nico
• 30:15
  and I had became inseparable and we were finishing each other's thoughts, and we're
• 30:19
  two very different kind of writers. Like I don't know if you saw it.
• 30:22
  Nico has a really quirky, great film called John and the Hole that
• 30:26
  was just it was in the Stupid Bright in the Pandemic. But right he's
• 30:33
  Nico is a an absurdist at heart. He's an abstractionist and I'm a dialogue
• 30:44
  action conflict and together it was that's what bird Man is. Right. Either
• 30:48
  you have Michael Keaton and I'm a stone and you're not important, blah blah
• 30:52
  blah, get used to it, or you have him eating below an ego
• 30:55
  and I don't know this play is chasing me around with a tiny hambra hidden
• 30:57
  meaning in balls or Birdman flying, and that's Nico. And the two of
• 31:00
  us just loved each other's styles, even though we don't write in each other's
• 31:04
  styles, so we would laugh, you know, um So, I think
• 31:10
  speaking for myself, I mean, I know, Alejandro, I'm gonna you
• 31:14
  know, I'll tell you a million ways why all hundred is a genius.
• 31:17
  Um. But speaking for myself in this particular style played right into my strength
• 31:22
  as a playwright. Right of course, dialogue scenes clever, keeps moving,
• 31:29
  it's not elliptical. Um. For me, it was like going home,
• 31:33
  you know, to to my plays. Um and I love that. Um
• 31:41
  So. I focused on that. Nico focused on the more esoteric, and
• 31:47
  Alejandro is a master of both. He's a master of the fifty fifty and
• 31:52
  two people in a room going at each other and He's a master of the
• 31:56
  visual epic weep move. But I think the best thing I can say about
• 32:05
  my partner Alejandro is that his guts just don't lie to him. He knows
• 32:14
  in a way like when he and Chievo that our DPM. When him and
• 32:19
  Chievo are standing there and working it out, you just sit back and I
• 32:24
  don't know what to say. You you you, You just sit with your
• 32:28
  mouth shut and watch It's It's a stunning thing to see happen. Their instincts
• 32:35
  are so pure and have adrenaline in them by all by themselves. And that's
• 32:40
  what for me. The best bird Birdman to you was what Good Fellas was
• 32:45
  to me when I saw it. He just pull yanked you into this world.
• 32:50
  And then you're in this world and you you just don't get out of
• 32:52
  it. It's just trap it and go. And I feel like Alejandro outside
• 32:57
  of the righting, I'm just talking about his direction, did that like man
• 33:00
  with you like it or love it? And people love it and people hate
• 33:01
  it? Like I get both, I really do um. But for the
• 33:05
  people who love it, I think it feels like that you got pulled into
• 33:07
  this ride and it's dark and it moves and you just don't know what's happening.
• 33:10
  It doesn't feel familiar in a way, which is, you know,
• 33:14
  really lovely. I think un rare and rare these days and rare. Yeah,
• 33:16
  I thought that last year about that about Everything Everywhere, which wasn't my
• 33:21
  favorite film, but I certainly loved it. But it felt like, oh
• 33:23
  shit, yes, right, two rocks or boulders are speaking to each other.
• 33:28
  That's perfection. Mike's are those hotdog hands? Why get to the bagel?
• 33:35
  We're good? Yeah, no, no that and don't even get me
• 33:37
  stopping. I had the boys on the Daniels on before they were the Daniels,
• 33:42
  and and just hearing the story of how that, I'm like, you
• 33:45
  guys are insane. It's insane said that movies. And it was so wonderful.
• 33:47
  It was such a wonderful film as well. Yeah, and you know,
• 33:51
  speaking of Chivo, I mean Chivo had a run there of three three
• 33:55
  Oscars in a row grab Revenant, yeah not not not a bad run.
• 34:00
  And then Alejandro had backed the back Oscars for Best Director, which I don't
• 34:07
  know if that has that happened before. It has I think once or twice
• 34:09
  before. I remember it's a rare. It's a rarity. It's definitely not
• 34:14
  something that happens often. Working When when you're saying this this thing, when
• 34:19
  you're watching Chivo and are working on set and they just know that they trust
• 34:22
  their gut. It sounds to me like they're just that thing that we all
• 34:27
  all the creatives, all of creatives do when we try to connect to the
• 34:30
  ether, to connect to the source of whatever creativity is. It seems that
• 34:36
  they have a very strong connection to it and they trust it implicitly, like
• 34:40
  they just because a lot of times as a writer or as a director,
• 34:45
  you second guess you're kind of like, oh, maybe, maybe not.
• 34:47
  It sounds like these guys are like it's like watching the Beatles writing a song
• 34:52
  and those documentaries just like just they're firing on all cylinders. Yes, that's
• 34:57
  that's why I've been in the room. I mean, I've been privilege to
• 35:00
  be in the room. It's crazy, and I think I want to be
• 35:02
  clear because I you know, I know and have been friendly with with you
• 35:07
  know, Alexandro Alfonso Guilletimo del Toro Geebo. Um. I'll say this,
• 35:15
  if the world's still around in fifty years, they're gonna be full chapters in
• 35:21
  film books about that these three guys in that period of time, and they
• 35:25
  make very different movies, but they all come from the same place. This
• 35:30
  is what they where They're gonna call Mexican. The Mexican cinema of the odds
• 35:37
  is this passionate like it's not the genius of Paul Thomas Anderson or the genius
• 35:49
  of the Cohens, which are massive geniuses. But the difference in style with
• 35:57
  the Mexicans for me is this lead by the gut balls out. The mistakes
• 36:05
  are part of the you know, like I watched Todd's movie with Kate h
• 36:12
  tar Oh, yeah, it's it's it's perfection, it's it's it's I don't
• 36:16
  mean the story or I just mean it's constructed in a way that's so perfect
• 36:22
  um and it's super wonderful. Our guys aren't like that. They're even when
• 36:31
  it's choreographed to an inch of its life. The mistakes are part of the
• 36:35
  joy of it. The car chase, Famous car Chase and City of men
• 36:38
  Uh, you know the guieron is sequence and Pans labyrinth that that keeps cutting
• 36:44
  back and forth like they just do things and it's the totality of their instinct
• 36:51
  that is what's right. Not the perfection of what they're doing. Even their
• 36:54
  stuff is pretty unbelievable, but you know what I mean, And I think
• 36:59
  that's what that's what this moment and those guys have in common, this instinct,
• 37:02
  like you said, this, this this barometer that that just it.
• 37:07
  It just takes them the right way and lady takes them somewhere a right.
• 37:10
  I mean you look at Get On or Get Off. Yeah, look at
• 37:14
  Getmo stuff. I mean it's so guietemo like. There's just no there's no
• 37:20
  one else on the planet who can make a film like no like, and
• 37:22
  those are the best kind of film filmmakers are. You can't see anyone else
• 37:28
  making your avatar regardless, you can't see you can't see anyone else making et
• 37:34
  like. You just can't see that. It's not possible. It's the DNA
• 37:37
  is so mixed in that, you know, don't make any like Like Spielber
• 37:44
  couldn't make a Good Fellas, but it's not going to be Marty's Good Fellas,
• 37:47
  no either, And Marty could have made Jaws, right, not gonna
• 37:52
  It's just not going to be the same, that's right. It's it's it's
• 37:54
  all right. Working with Alejandro now on so many projects, what is like
• 37:59
  the biggest lesson you've learned as a writer working with him? He has a
• 38:07
  he has a a bullshit meter where you can write something really really great,
• 38:15
  you know, and you know writers, we usually hate ninety percent of what
• 38:19
  we write, but you'll find something to say, oh, that's that's really
• 38:22
  great, and he's like, yeah, it's it's really good, really good.
• 38:25
  I'm not going to use it, um because I can do that whole
• 38:29
  thing you just did if I just do this with the camera door there.
• 38:32
  But it's great, nice idea. What else do we have? And you're
• 38:35
  like, I just I spent three weeks. What are you talking about?
• 38:39
  And then you're watching You're like, yep, yep, he was right.
• 38:45
  They have an amazing way to get past is an amazing It's again, it's
• 38:50
  his truth meeter. He just he just knows if it feels, you know,
• 38:54
  right or wrong, or whether it's an image or a line. He
• 38:59
  just he has an you know what he comes from music like Alehammer was very
• 39:04
  much from music. Um, I think he was when I was in the
• 39:07
  restaurant business. I think he was a dj um, but music means a
• 39:10
  lot to and that's how he I think that's his paradigm. He sees everything
• 39:17
  as this sort of rhythm and music, and whether it's time for a dissonant
• 39:22
  note or harmony, he'll he'll he'll know, sort of enjoy. But that's
• 39:27
  that's what it feels like. Um. And he's he's taught me to lean
• 39:30
  more on, like stop being so polished and stop saying everything, say what's
• 39:37
  get down to the center of it. And he's made me better. I
• 39:39
  mean, he made me better instantly with Murdman, and even seems beautiful that
• 39:45
  you know that that survived. He just makes me better. Now. I
• 39:50
  always like asking this question from people who've won oscars, What was it like
• 39:54
  being in the center of the storm? Will be right back back after a
• 40:00
  word from our sponsor, and now back to the show that was Birdman,
• 40:09
  the whole pomp and circumstance. You're going into award shoft to awards show and
• 40:14
  everyone's you're the best, you're the greatest. This destroys most most people,
• 40:17
  it does in Hollywood. We've seen that a thousand times. How did you
• 40:22
  deal with being in the middle of this whole a hurricane. Essentially, it's
• 40:27
  the eye of the storm essentially. Well, I think I think the greatest
• 40:30
  thing about being a screenwriter is that nobody knows who you are. That you
• 40:38
  have to tell some I was funny. I was at a funeral. My
• 40:42
  great answers like one hundred and seven years old, God blesser and I was
• 40:44
  a funeral and somebody I hadn't seen in twenty years, my army inside of
• 40:46
  the family, came up to me at the funeral. I was like,
• 40:50
  oh my god, you're famous. I said, I'm not. Things like
• 40:52
  you're famous. We saw you in the Oscar and I said, I'm nothing.
• 40:54
  I said, what's your favorite movie that you ever saw in your whole
• 40:59
  life? And she said Shawshank Redemption. I said, who wrote it?
• 41:02
  She said, what's your second favorite movie? Time cast a blank? I
• 41:08
  was like, who wrote it? Like nobody, not like only movie people,
• 41:13
  you know what I mean. So screenwriters, you get you're under the
• 41:15
  radar. Plus there was me Nico Armando, like we were all sneaking on
• 41:20
  the Alejandro. You know, everybody's looking for him as the director, as
• 41:22
  the auto or naturally, so it wasn't that crazy. So we we had
• 41:25
  the joy of being able to be part of it and still be able to
• 41:30
  enjoy it with our wives. And like we had a ball at the Golden
• 41:32
  Globes. We were getting drunk at the table. We had a we had
• 41:35
  a ball, like the whole time, we just had a ball because it
• 41:37
  wasn't it wasn't real. You know, we weren't under any pressure at all.
• 41:43
  Um, So it was fine, Like I was there, I'll show
• 41:47
  you. I don't know if I can go get it for you, but
• 41:49
  it's a startling no. Please gook a if you if you go, if
• 42:08
  you go to um whatever YouTube wherever you watch the you know, Birdman winning
• 42:15
  Best Picture or whatever. We had one screenplay amazing, Alejandro had one director
• 42:21
  TiVo one. UM. We were hoping Michael would win. I'm still sor
• 42:27
  yeah, but so we had done our thing and then best picture. So
• 42:30
  the best picture you win and everybody goes up on stage. So now we're
• 42:32
  up there with Emma and Ed Norton and you know, all the fame.
• 42:36
  I'm like, nobody's looking at me, like Arna milschen Um, Jim Scotch
• 42:39
  to all the great producer um. And I'm standing up there and I'm like
• 42:43
  well, literally nobody at home or in this theater is looking at me,
• 42:47
  so you can see it in the YouTube video. I reach into my pocket
• 42:52
  and I take out my phone and I just go like, I don't aim.
• 42:53
  I just go like this and I, you know, turn that camera
• 42:58
  really fat one click. I put it right back in my pocket. I'm
• 43:00
  like, I probably got you know, somebody's feet, but I had to
• 43:04
  try it. Well. The picture that came out on my phone was this,
• 43:08
  wow, oh my god, everyone who's listening, you gotta go on
• 43:15
  to YouTube. But why look at this well and that is amazing is holding
• 43:21
  the oscar and the god light that's coming right down easy. And there was
• 43:24
  like Jared Leto and Clint Eastwood and my wife is here in front of Harvey
• 43:28
  Weinstein and an a win tower in the Red Threat. Oh good lord,
• 43:31
  but I got that. Did you give that to I'm assuming you gave that
• 43:35
  tall hunk. I didn't give it to anybody. He asked me for it.
• 43:37
  I was like, nope, that's mine. You want to visit it,
• 43:39
  come to my house. But it was a wonderful moment of an example
• 43:45
  of like I was just enjoying it. I was just and there's yeah.
• 43:51
  Yeah, it's so crazy, man, I would show you some other stuff
• 43:53
  if this was a if we were on the video, because there's a video
• 43:57
  of my friends who all gathered in New York City in a base and fifty
• 44:00
  of my best friends. Yeah, and when we win. That's the only
• 44:04
  thing that ever made me cry that year. Was they sent me that that
• 44:07
  night at four in the morning or whatever. Oh, there's a video of
• 44:09
  them nervous and then these Eddie Murphy says Bergman, and they I mean erupt
• 44:16
  and cry and laugh and they had won it and they'd be so emotional.
• 44:21
  Um, it's still one of my favorite moments. My god, brother,
• 44:24
  that's that's it was fun. It was. It's fun. Now after you
• 44:29
  win the Oscar, then of course everybody in town you're wanted. You're an
• 44:32
  Oscar winner. Now you're yeah, you're an Oscar winning screenwriter. Everybody.
• 44:37
  How did the town treat you different? Did it treat you differently? It?
• 44:39
  Did it treat you the same? I mean, you're ready, You're
• 44:43
  not a kid, so you I think you can handle whatever comes your way
• 44:45
  a bit better than if you were jointy and gotten that. Yeah, and
• 44:50
  I also lived through you know, not so great time. So I'm,
• 44:52
  like I said, I'm generally grateful. Um, yeah, things change,
• 44:58
  you know, Uh, the job has become different. You make your agent's
• 45:01
  job easier because they can go out and say, you know, it wasn't
• 45:08
  there were four of us credited on the film, so you know. But
• 45:14
  yeah, author started coming differently, and then once I got on zooms with
• 45:17
  people they understood who I or in person means they understood who I was.
• 45:22
  Then it definitely created more work. Obviously a little bit more money and I
• 45:28
  don't have to pitch stuff as much anymore. I can if it's personal.
• 45:34
  But the biggest advantage is people come to you and say, hey, how
• 45:37
  about this? And you know, I tend to want to work with with
• 45:42
  like young not young, but new filmmakers makes me happy. Like I just
• 45:46
  did Carmen, which is out now with Benjamin Yet. That was his first
• 45:51
  feature and he has an amazing eye. I'm doing with Resident with Renee.
• 45:54
  I'm doing the Puerto Rico film because I love the still searching for it.
• 46:00
  And then occasionally I'll do the you know, do allow you talking about doing
• 46:04
  something else now, but I'll do the other ones as well. Um,
• 46:07
  but I get now. It's more I get to a little more ability to
• 46:12
  choose what I want to do and not have to hustle as it were,
• 46:15
  um, you know as much as I used to, Thank God, because
• 46:17
  I'm fifty five, so I don't have the energy for it. Brother,
• 46:21
  he's telling me about him. Man, it's getting tough out here to hustle.
• 46:22
  Keep keep that hustle going. When when you wake up and you hear
• 46:28
  things popping a greeky and you're like, oh, oh hell man, yeah
• 46:34
  to the bathroom. So this so the start up paid off for your wife
• 46:37
  essentially? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's smart. She's all the smart
• 46:44
  one. Yeah, my my wife was. My wife called me the uh
• 46:47
  not an investment, but not an endowment, but uh some sort of financial
• 46:53
  instrument that pays off years later. Yeah I knew, I knew, Yeah
• 46:58
  exactly. She's like, oh, it's finally are the payoff. It's like
• 47:00
  it's only taken Like, yeah, it's a long term investment. This one
• 47:02
  this was how old are you? I'm forty eight? Are you're forty eight?
• 47:08
  Forty? Baby in the baby you and I walked over the same dead
• 47:14
  body, sir, Okay, so please and Alejandro was shooting them like and
• 47:20
  then so so you worked also as a co producer on the Revenue, which
• 47:29
  is again another man. I mean, he was just nailing these things back
• 47:32
  to back back. I was just like, what is what is this man
• 47:37
  on? And can I get some like? It was remarkable you worked as
• 47:39
  a co producer. I'm assuming you helped it a little bit on the back
• 47:42
  end of the writing or polishing or Ko and I helped with the story a
• 47:45
  little bit, and we helped. We had advised on on that sort of
• 47:47
  thing, and we're close to him when he when he needed us. Um
• 47:51
  during that period, Um, would you want set? Nico went to set.
• 47:57
  I was in New York. I was working on my music and I
• 48:00
  was working with get Him on something at the time, so I didn't get
• 48:02
  to go, but um Nika went um and it was crazy, all the
• 48:07
  stories and I would get I would get the phone calls. Um. But
• 48:12
  that's just another example of those two mania. I don't think he'll ever do
• 48:15
  that that. I mean, he just did Barter, which is insane.
• 48:17
  But like Revenue was like three hours of light. They're using all natural light,
• 48:22
  four degrees, they run at snow. They gotta go to Patagonia,
• 48:27
  you know, going, you know, method in his way like a madman,
• 48:31
  like he wanted to live it all, like he ate it up and
• 48:36
  lived that. I mean, I'm so glad he won for that because he
• 48:39
  was he literally was going to kill himself until they gave him an oscar.
• 48:43
  For God's sake, someone to kill himself in revenue. I mean, he
• 48:46
  might as well have. It was in the freezing water. He's eating buffalo
• 48:50
  liver. Like. The guy's a maniac um and an incredible actor. And
• 48:53
  I'm so glad they rewarded him. But that that was everybody just you know
• 48:59
  whatever, risking life and limb to make a film. And I think you
• 49:02
  can see it in the in the imagery. I think you can see it
• 49:05
  in the film, I mean the the the when I heard the stories coming
• 49:09
  out from the set, and I had a few friends of mine who worked
• 49:14
  here and I would hear stories, I'm like, this can't be like three
• 49:17
  hours of natural light. I mean, I know it's Achieva, and I
• 49:21
  mean Achieva, I trust, but Cheese like it's crazy and it's great.
• 49:25
  What's the craziest story that you could share publicly that you heard. We'll talk
• 49:30
  about the non public hard hard. Yeah, the hard part is what we
• 49:34
  can say publicly. Um, because I when I heard is that that he
• 49:40
  had there was a ringing of a bell or something like that, or a
• 49:45
  siren once a day to remind everybody what they were, why they were doing
• 49:50
  what they were doing, something like that. I don't know, I'm trying
• 49:52
  to think of what because there's a lot of really good stories. Um,
• 49:59
  we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the
• 50:06
  show. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, so I'm gonna
• 50:10
  I I yeah, I'm not. I'm gonna refrain from that question. Okay,
• 50:15
  Well after we stop off, fine, you can tell it. But
• 50:19
  I'm telling you I'm yeah, I'm gonna start a show one day and just
• 50:22
  record the things I get they stopped, because that's the best stories ever.
• 50:29
  Man, that's gonna be the end of your No. No, I'll do
• 50:31
  that when I'm like ninety and everyone's dead already. Yeah, sure, I'm
• 50:37
  no. No, no, of course, of course, there were a
• 50:39
  lot of crazy stories, and a lot of it had to do with you
• 50:43
  know, jumping into ice cold rivers, people thermal doctors on set um.
• 50:49
  But how hard they how hard they pressed. Um. All you all you
• 50:55
  have to think about is if we talk about that window of light. If
• 50:58
  you've got anybody here has ever listening, has ever made a film, and
• 51:00
  you think about how much a setup is and what it takes. And if
• 51:04
  you think about that sort of opening sequence of The Revenant, even in cuts,
• 51:09
  that that battle scene, even if you could contemplate it in cuts and
• 51:14
  try to understand how that was all orchestrated with within windows of time that would
• 51:19
  provide light, it would seem insurmountable, Like how they did it. I'm
• 51:24
  still not I have no idea. It's it's yeah, it is. It
• 51:30
  is a masterpiece, to say the least. My friend. Now, you
• 51:34
  you have also been directing as well. You've directed, um features, you've
• 51:37
  directed, did you have a direct You've directed? A future areadywhere I haven't
• 51:40
  directed my full length shorts directors. I directed a long short about thirty five
• 51:45
  minutes called in This Our Time, based on a play I wrote. I'm
• 51:50
  set up to direct, to direct my first feature, which is actually the
• 51:53
  adaptation of the play I told you Alijandra read to Find Me in the First
• 51:57
  Place, which is a play called Still Life. Yeah, we're just trying
• 52:00
  to tie up the actors. I have the um, just the genius DP
• 52:07
  UM, Luca Biggatzi who did and young Pope I mean he's he's a monster,
• 52:15
  UM. And he read it and loved it and has has told me
• 52:19
  he wants to do it. I have a really great production designer, David
• 52:22
  Rockwell here in New York, who designs all of New York. Is a
• 52:23
  very New York piece. Um. And we're just trying to sew up the
• 52:28
  actors. We have the financing and God willing, I'll be able to announce
• 52:31
  something soon. UM. Next year, we'll finally, UM, we'll finally
• 52:37
  shoot it. Now, from the experience you have had on set as a
• 52:42
  director, there's always that day that we all feel like the entire world's coming
• 52:45
  crashing down around us. I'm assuming that was every second on Revenant, but
• 52:50
  yeah, yeah, UM, what was that day for you and how did
• 52:54
  you overcome it? I think that was that was my first day. Um.
• 53:00
  I had some I had three excellent actors. We had a scene that
• 53:05
  was in a bar with two terrific actors, an intimate scene, dialogue,
• 53:10
  heavy hard, and I had a DP who was excellent. Um who his
• 53:20
  name is, Barry Marko Witz. I'll say it. He's great. Um.
• 53:22
  He shot Crazy Heart, shot shot the Apostle. Yeah, and he
• 53:30
  did this job for me for like, you know, eight dollars in a
• 53:31
  sandwich, because he liked the script and he wanted to work together. He
• 53:36
  was he's a great guy. Um, but he's a big personality. And
• 53:39
  he was on set, and then I had these producers that were wandering around
• 53:43
  on set and I just didn't have control of it. And it was my
• 53:46
  first day on on any sort of feature, short or long h a short
• 53:52
  film, but it was my first day and I didn't know how to stand
• 54:00
  up and how to take control, and things just spiraled one by one.
• 54:06
  People started in the vacuum in my absence. They started making decisions that were
• 54:10
  contradictory, and it was you know, it was a whole thing. And
• 54:15
  we got through it and we got a good we got good takes out of
• 54:19
  it, thank god. But the next day, you know, I thought
• 54:22
  long and hard about it the night and the next morning I got the whole
• 54:24
  set together. I said, whatever went wrong yesterday is all on me,
• 54:30
  but it's not happening again. And this is how it's going to go,
• 54:32
  and they responded, my whole crew was amazing, and they were I think
• 54:36
  they were grateful to hear it. So it really was a lesson for me
• 54:40
  because when I'm directing theater, I'm entirely comfortable, but I think my self
• 54:45
  doubt about you know, I'm not going to talk to you. I don't
• 54:47
  understand the full ramification of a lens choice, Like I understand the basics,
• 54:53
  but I don't understand the full ramifications of it. And I felt like,
• 54:58
  since I didn't, I wanted to do a fur But then when you defer
• 55:00
  too much, it falls down around you. So I learned right away that
• 55:05
  you just want to be specific about Look, this should feel claustrophobic. This
• 55:09
  should feel like you can't escape the cage of this table. And then your
• 55:15
  cinematographer says, ah, okay, in that case, we're gonna use this,
• 55:17
  and we're gonna and all of a sudden and they're lighting and they're like,
• 55:21
  now, now, now we have So really, even if you don't
• 55:22
  know the specifics, as long as you know the action of the scene,
• 55:28
  the feeling of the scene, what you want from it, and you and
• 55:30
  you and you have good people and you explain that, uh, you find
• 55:35
  things get better. But my first day felt like a landslide getting away from
• 55:38
  me. And it was a horrible, helpless feeling. Um, thank god,
• 55:42
  it is it is, it is. It's brutal, mash friend.
• 55:45
  I'm trying to make you day. Yeah. Yeah, that that that that
• 55:50
  dragon is just coming after you every second that comes down, lights going down.
• 55:54
  Yeah, ot, you gotta Oh no, I can't go into ot.
• 55:57
  We can't afford no, no, no, no, no, it's
• 56:00
  it's it's brutal. Man. Now I have to ask you, because I
• 56:04
  am of Cuban dissensor. Yes, and I have to ask you what it
• 56:07
  was like working with the legendary Gloria I mean, I mean Gloria and Emilio.
• 56:15
  I grew up in Miami. I remember when Miami stab Machine hit Dude.
• 56:21
  It was a phenomenon five eighty six. I try to explain to people
• 56:27
  he was just a phenomenon and funny, funny side note. My first job
• 56:32
  in Miami as an editor was for the director of all of those early music
• 56:38
  videos. Oh really, like Rhythm's Gonna Get You get on your feet.
• 56:45
  I'm not sure if he did the very I don't think he did um doctora.
• 56:49
  I think he did doctor. I don't think he did Gonga. But
• 56:52
  but he was there, so he you know, and everybody who works in
• 56:54
  Miami Errol Errol um anyway, so it was growing up man like when Konga
• 57:05
  hit like it was a phenomenon. It was absolute phenomena. Every every wedding
• 57:09
  in bar Mitzvah in the country's still it was. That was a little crazy
• 57:16
  for me. Um. All right, So, by the way, for
• 57:21
  the record, you're talking about the Broadway musical. I wrote on your Feet
• 57:24
  for them about their life story. And now you'll be happy to know that
• 57:29
  we're working on the film version now. Um, so that should be really
• 57:32
  fun. Um. It was amazing. I met them my friend Nick Scandelius,
• 57:38
  who's a producer for the Needleland or organization on Broadway. UM had seen
• 57:43
  the had seen a reading The Bodyguard that I had written the other musical for
• 57:45
  the West End, and I guess you know, he knew I was Latino
• 57:49
  or half Latino, and and and he saw that I had done like what
• 57:52
  they called jukebox musical with Whitney's music. He said, we'd come down to
• 57:57
  Miami and I said, I don't think I'm gonna you know, I was
• 57:59
  busy, like, I don't think I'll be able to do it, and
• 58:01
  so just come down and talk to them, so they need to know what
• 58:04
  it's would be like. And I went down, I talked to them,
• 58:06
  and for me it was something else too, like you know, I grew
• 58:08
  up like I have a very I mean, yeah, I have a funny
• 58:13
  story about Gloria, UM, but um off another I could tell. I
• 58:17
  could tell that one because we've talked about that story. First of all,
• 58:22
  I love them and they're like family to me, like I love them,
• 58:25
  um, the media, the whole family, um um, Emily and Naive
• 58:31
  as well. UM. So I met her and me and they were talking
• 58:36
  about and I said, well, if it was me, I would tell
• 58:38
  the writer who's going to do this? And I would say this because I
• 58:43
  did all the research. I read their books, they sent me all the
• 58:45
  DVDs, I did the bio like and I said, oh, and and
• 58:47
  if it was me, I would tell the writer. And somehow I got
• 58:50
  to the end of it and Glorios like, you keep saying you're gonna tell
• 58:52
  the writer, but She's like, I want you to be the writer,
• 58:53
  and I was like, Gloria, I told Nick, I'm just not sure
• 58:55
  I was doing revenue. I was helping with revenue at the time. I
• 59:00
  was doing some things. I was like, I'm just not and she's like,
• 59:01
  well, well, And by the time we were done, we're in
• 59:04
  the parking lot and Gloria's you know, she's not a very She's not giant
• 59:08
  in a in a hype man. She's giants in other ways, in other
• 59:13
  ways and almost every other way. Her heart is giant, and her personality
• 59:15
  is giant, and her talent is giant. But she's short. And I
• 59:21
  remember her in the parking lot of their offices in Miami looking up at me,
• 59:24
  and she's like, your mother's park Cuban, right. I was like
• 59:29
  yeah. She just looked at the shot won't disappoint her. And I was
• 59:34
  like, cornyo, what do I do now? I like one I got
• 59:39
  to the airport and I called my agent. I said, I think I'm
• 59:43
  doing the stuff on musical and he was like really. I was like,
• 59:46
  I think I'm doing it, because the minute I told my mother I would
• 59:50
  have been done. No. No, I was a very mafioso style way.
• 59:53
  Oh she went full on me. She went full we'll be right back
• 59:58
  after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. And thank
• 1:00:07
  god she did because it turned out to be one of my favorite experiences.
• 1:00:09
  We're still friends to this day. She's a beautiful human being. The story
• 1:00:15
  I tell, which is slightly embarrassing, Oh God, is that I went
• 1:00:20
  into her. She hasn't in her house. She has this place she calls
• 1:00:22
  the lair, and she was just the one on the one on Star Island.
• 1:00:25
  Is that she needs to live it yea, yeah, so side house
• 1:00:28
  and has this loft and that's where all computers and stuff is. And she
• 1:00:31
  was doing this like blog this sort of and she invited me to be on
• 1:00:35
  to talk about on your Feet, so I went. We didn't know each
• 1:00:37
  other that well then and we were just talking and she was like, oh,
• 1:00:43
  we're talking about the musical. I'm doing research. And she's like,
• 1:00:45
  no, it's like this video of which videos did she show me? Like
• 1:00:51
  a music video that she did a music video? It was one of the
• 1:00:52
  later ones, a little balad. But she's in the white shirt with the
• 1:00:55
  black you know, with the tight and I don't know what I was thinking
• 1:01:00
  because I'm fifty five. But I looked at it and I was like,
• 1:01:05
  oh my god, I had the biggest crush on you, as if I
• 1:01:08
  just remembered. And then I realized, oh shit, I'm citty with Glorious.
• 1:01:12
  I don't want to sound like a creep, like did you just say
• 1:01:15
  that out loud? You just used at it out loud with my mouth hole
• 1:01:17
  and right too. I immediately must have turned like brick red and I was
• 1:01:22
  like, I don't mean that in the best. She's like, darling,
• 1:01:24
  I will take it anywhere I could get it, Like I was like,
• 1:01:27
  oh my, oh my god, it came right out of my mouth.
• 1:01:30
  I was looking at her, going, oh, I remember being like really
• 1:01:35
  attracted to you years. Yeah, in my teenage years, being really attracted
• 1:01:38
  to you, you and me both brother. It's there's nothing, there's nothing,
• 1:01:42
  there's no shame, there's she was Gloria. He's still going just now.
• 1:01:45
  She's gorgeous. We had a ball, and God, did my mother
• 1:01:52
  ever win it all right because she got to go to all the premiere she
• 1:01:54
  I think my mother has seen that show more than me and Gloria. I
• 1:01:57
  think it's possible, like my mother has seen that show, like it goes
• 1:02:00
  to Miami. She sees it. She went, They're playing a little little
• 1:02:04
  tiny theater up and run. Listen, bro, listen, I was listen.
• 1:02:07
  I was when I was coming up in Miami. I was an editor,
• 1:02:12
  and I was editing basically commercials and music videos and things every all the
• 1:02:15
  big stuff that was playing on Don in Miami, and I got to work
• 1:02:17
  with. I did a lot of stuff for Univision and Telemundo and that kind
• 1:02:22
  of stuff too. And I did an I did one with cheat with Don
• 1:02:24
  Francisco. I did a commercial with Don Francisco from Yeah, Bro, if
• 1:02:30
  I tell you when I told my parents that I hadn't met Salo, I
• 1:02:34
  haven't met Don Francisco. I'm editing a commercial with Don Francisco. No,
• 1:02:39
  the entire Cuban family knew that, Like, oh my god, alex is
• 1:02:43
  famous. Yeah, plex it's fair. People in Havana knew that. Yeah.
• 1:02:50
  Yeah, So you can imagine, yeah, yeah, you can imagine
• 1:02:54
  when I brought my family back to you know, you can you imagine me,
• 1:03:00
  Oh my god, that must have been like and she's the sweetest,
• 1:03:02
  Like I can't even explain I can't even explain it. She's so loving.
• 1:03:07
  She's such a good person. It didn't matter who you brought. Because when
• 1:03:12
  we were on Broadway in the Marquis Theater, there's this little it's very funny.
• 1:03:15
  There's this little room they put aside that they had a little bar,
• 1:03:17
  and Emilia would just be making you know, rum and cokes for me and
• 1:03:21
  him and I agree all like it was a party in that room. That
• 1:03:25
  room the Gloria called the g Spot by the way, that was her name.
• 1:03:30
  That was her name for the thing. She said, you know,
• 1:03:31
  mostly most men can't find it, so we'll be here on our own.
• 1:03:35
  Um. Wow, Gloria's joke. It was very funny. Um. But
• 1:03:38
  we used to stay there and it didn't matter. Like one time I had
• 1:03:43
  this lady who took care of our kids and and and she was a Caribbean
• 1:03:49
  um, lady Doris, And she was just a ginormous Gloria fan. And
• 1:03:54
  I was like, I got it, so I brought it. And Gloria
• 1:03:58
  has a room for of important people, but she spends fifteen minutes of a
• 1:04:04
  thirty minute or twenty minute intermission talking to these two. And I'm like,
• 1:04:09
  this lady, that's how good this lady. And Amy is like they're just
• 1:04:14
  the most approachable, lovely human beings they ever wanted me. My father was
• 1:04:17
  telling me, like he used to see Gloria and Emilia like at like malls,
• 1:04:23
  trying to get there, like playing music before they like right, just
• 1:04:27
  trying to get themselves up off the ground. And they're like, yeah,
• 1:04:30
  oh yeah, we know, we've seen it. We saw them coming up.
• 1:04:31
  And then that's when Conga hit and they were playing weddings and bartments was
• 1:04:35
  in Miami while they were selling out arenas in South America. It was crazy,
• 1:04:42
  the story because it because they weren't famous here yet because they're famous.
• 1:04:45
  Yeah, you gotta see the you gotta see the either the show when it
• 1:04:47
  comes by or the or I'll take you next time it's there. It comes
• 1:04:50
  around all the time. Oh my god, oh god, oh my god,
• 1:04:57
  you're kidding them. U. So I'm gonna ask you a few questions
• 1:05:00
  ask oh, my guests, my friend, what advice would you have for
• 1:05:02
  a screenwriter trying to break into the business today, trying to make it worthwhile
• 1:05:12
  and not clich I think, don't don't try to write for somebody else,
• 1:05:24
  because most people out there are doing that. So if you write with your
• 1:05:29
  own personality, Like your talent is your talent. Nobody knows how talent you
• 1:05:32
  are or aren't. Nobody knows. People will make choices on what they think
• 1:05:39
  your work is, but they just don't know. So the one thing I
• 1:05:42
  say is original voices tend to find their way through. The one advantage of
• 1:05:45
  screenwriter has that other disciplines of the arts don't have is if you write original,
• 1:05:50
  good scripts, solidly structured, good characters, solid dialogue. If you
• 1:05:56
  write that, you're gonna work. If you it anywhere near a door and
• 1:06:01
  get through it, you're gonna work. As opposed to an actor you're like,
• 1:06:04
  well you have that mole on your face. You're five to seven.
• 1:06:06
  I need five to eleven. You're you know, writers, It's like substance
• 1:06:12
  wins more than anything else. So be yourself as much as you can,
• 1:06:16
  because the minute you try to write like what you think they want to hear,
• 1:06:19
  you have seven the other writers out of eighty doing the same thing,
• 1:06:25
  and nobody. You'll never You can't stand out, and it won't matter because
• 1:06:29
  that's not your talent. That's you imitating somebody else's talent. So I would
• 1:06:33
  say, try to be true to yourself, hear your voice, don't fake
• 1:06:38
  it, and don't manipulate your characters, like, don't be objective to them
• 1:06:45
  when when you're writing a scene. That was a big thing for me,
• 1:06:47
  well is put yourself in their place. Don't don't say he says to her,
• 1:06:54
  or she says to him. Don't look at it from out here.
• 1:06:56
  Take his point of view, hear her, feel what you feel that,
• 1:07:00
  take her point of view, feel what you feel. You have to be
• 1:07:01
  a little bit of a method actor about it when you're writing scenes and dialogue.
• 1:07:04
  And then of course you know, as much of Aristotle as you can
• 1:07:09
  digest is amazing. Action, conflict, reverse, and you know, surprising,
• 1:07:12
  inevitability and those things are crucial and you'd be shocked how many times you
• 1:07:16
  don't see them in a scene when you ask a writer, well, who
• 1:07:18
  wants what from? Who has the action in the scene, and they well,
• 1:07:23
  and you're like, well, that's why it's not popping right there.
• 1:07:26
  So that's my best advice. Really, I think if you had a chance
• 1:07:30
  to go in a time machine and go back to time and talk to that
• 1:07:32
  little guy at the beginning of your life, what advice would you give him?
• 1:07:39
  So I mean, hold on, like, hold on it. I
• 1:07:44
  know how bad it is. I know you can't believe it, but this
• 1:07:49
  crazy thing is going to happen if you just keep holding on. And and
• 1:07:56
  I would have said that to myself as a little kid. I would have
• 1:07:58
  said that to myself as a teenager. And I would have said to myself
• 1:08:00
  at age twenty four, like when it was dark, just you just just
• 1:08:04
  hang on and keep believing, and keep being good to people, and keep
• 1:08:10
  it trying to be good to yourself. That's what I would have told him.
• 1:08:13
  And obviously, don't walk off a beautiful Please, don't walk off a
• 1:08:16
  set with a famous director on your first film in Hollywood, you pompous idiot.
• 1:08:23
  I would have said that too. What is the lesson that took you
• 1:08:25
  the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life. In
• 1:08:31
  life, I'm still learning it, which is to forgive myself. I'm super
• 1:08:40
  hard on myself. My inner monologue is horrifying. I'm trying to fix that,
• 1:08:47
  you know, every day. I have two little kids now, I
• 1:08:49
  have an eleven and twelve and a nine. I'malia and Elena. Um.
• 1:08:56
  But I'm I've been terrible to my self and I need to I need to
• 1:09:02
  not be in the industry. It was be passionate, inspire people don't impress
• 1:09:17
  them, right, Sometimes we try to impress somebody, but you don't want
• 1:09:23
  to impress them. When I talk about somebody asked me about a film,
• 1:09:25
  I say, well, I would do it this way. I speak the
• 1:09:28
  same way I'm speaking to you. Now. I'm like, I will hear.
• 1:09:30
  I'm like alahanaa. Maybe that's why we got along, because that's how
• 1:09:31
  I describe scripts. So inspire people don't, don't try to impress them.
• 1:09:39
  And then finally I do have to say it. Those simple Aristotelian principles have
• 1:09:45
  carried me so far, the idea of surprising the inevitable conclusions to beat scenes
• 1:09:51
  entire films. Holy shit, I can't believe that happened. Of course that
• 1:09:58
  happened. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now
• 1:10:06
  back to the show. Right that, if I was paying attention, I
• 1:10:11
  would have known. And you think about your favorite sort of narratives, narrative
• 1:10:15
  films, and you're going to find that Pan's labyrinth, right, Holy shit,
• 1:10:17
  I can't believe she's doubt Oh of course I wasn't you know everything from
• 1:10:23
  usual Suspects to the Godfather the Birdman when he of course, holy shit.
• 1:10:27
  Of course, if you're paying attention, I would you would have seen it.
• 1:10:30
  That rule carries you a long way if you can write cleverly into it.
• 1:10:32
  The thing I told you about manipulating your scenes, about being outside them
• 1:10:35
  when they talk, that's a big deal. And and action and conflict.
• 1:10:41
  So I don't think it's running behind the I'm not going to get up again.
• 1:10:45
  But there's this is all navy blue because there's a movie screen in here,
• 1:10:48
  but behind the oscar, and it's a navy blue cover is my poetics,
• 1:10:53
  my Aristotle's poetics. I keep it right behind the oscar to remind myself
• 1:10:57
  that that thing has nothing to that's nothing but luck and the grace of God
• 1:11:01
  and a gift for my family. But what's behind that was what got me.
• 1:11:08
  M h. I had a chance at that lottery. Was that book
• 1:11:11
  that's behind it? And it meant it's changed. It changed my life.
• 1:11:15
  And I didn't start as a writer. I became one and and and that
• 1:11:18
  was it. And the hardest question of all, my friend, three of
• 1:11:24
  your favorite films of all time? Oh? God Um today today. No,
• 1:11:30
  they haven't changed in a long time. Okay. Amadeus, oh the
• 1:11:34
  most forms Amadeus, good Fellas, Yeah, which I don't. I just
• 1:11:41
  remember seeing three times the first day it open. Then I didn't know what
• 1:11:44
  the hell was going on, and then it gets a little harder. Um,
• 1:11:49
  Godfather is ridiculous. Um. But I love you know, I love
• 1:11:57
  Moonstruck. I love it. Just makes my heart explode with envy for John
• 1:12:01
  the writer the cage. Oh yeah. The other things for the writers out
• 1:12:11
  there as well is is don't not get your stuff out there even when,
• 1:12:15
  Like I'm a mentor in the Writer's Guild program and I'm producing a film right
• 1:12:17
  now in New Mexico from a Colombian Queer identifying writer director named Alessandra la Caraza.
• 1:12:24
  She was my one of my This is interesting, and the Writers Guild
• 1:12:28
  Mentors program, I was a mentor. She wasn't my mentee, but she
• 1:12:31
  was in the program. And I told them in a group, there was
• 1:12:34
  about twenty of them, and I told them I have a development company.
• 1:12:39
  So if you have a script that you're proud of and you want to send
• 1:12:42
  it to me, send it to me. Just make sure that it's your
• 1:12:44
  last draft, not your first. For now. Make sure that there's no
• 1:12:46
  typeos that don't do any don't send me anything that tells me you were careless.
• 1:12:51
  But if you send it, it'll get read. And out of about
• 1:12:55
  fifteen or twenty of them, she was the only one, well either one
• 1:13:01
  or two, yeah, that sent it. Well, it turns out she's
• 1:13:05
  going to have a story like my story because right now they're in pre production
• 1:13:10
  in New Mexico. Residentists starring in her film. Uh Leslie Grace is starring
• 1:13:15
  in her film. She's directing it. It's a little budget, it's gonna
• 1:13:19
  be about two million. But it came because she had the balls to to
• 1:13:26
  have the script, be proud of it and sent it in. I read
• 1:13:28
  it, I was like, I love the script. I showed it to
• 1:13:29
  a bunch of people. They love the script. And now we're producing her
• 1:13:32
  first feature. That's an awesome great So be brave, you know, and
• 1:13:38
  don't don't be cynical, like be brave and yeah, you should be more
• 1:13:42
  surrounding yourself for other artists. Surround yourself with people. The more people,
• 1:13:45
  the more you have a chance to climb weird stairways. Alex Thank you so
• 1:13:50
  much for coming on the show. It has been such an honor and privilege
• 1:13:56
  and just hilarious talking to you by friend, and I feel like that anyway.
• 1:14:01
  You know, those are the best interviews when I when I hear the
• 1:14:03
  guests, Oh god, I hope I didn't say something I shouldn't have said.
• 1:14:08
  That's always the best conversation. Yeah, yeah, it's okay, you
• 1:14:11
  won the oscar ready, It's fine, I can retire, right, you
• 1:14:14
  agree with you did? You're good because all you gotta do is take when
• 1:14:17
  you rent is due. Just show them the oscar and they don't even charge
• 1:14:20
  you. That's the way it works, right, beat him with it.
• 1:14:23
  It's really out. Just killed them, bury them. Thank you. Thank
• 1:14:27
  you for not only being on the show, brother, for being an inspiration
• 1:14:29
  to so many writers out there. My friend, Alex, I appreciate you
• 1:14:32
  man, all right, brother, thank you. I want to thank Alex
• 1:14:36
  so much for coming on the show and sharing his journey and dropping his knowledge
• 1:14:41
  bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so much, Alex. If you
• 1:14:44
  want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over
• 1:14:45
  to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Ford Slash three o seven.
• 1:14:51
  Thank you so much for listening to guys as always, keep on writing
• 1:14:55
  no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the
• 1:14:58
  Bulletproof screen Right podcasts at bullip Groove, Screenwriting dot tv, m