Latest / A New Angle / Part one: Crissie McMullan & Jason Wiener are AI Realists

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Part one: Crissie McMullan & Jason Wiener are AI Realists · A New Angle

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is A New Angle, conversations about how we're doing and where we're going.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Justin Angle.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: This show is supported by the Headwaters Foundation,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: First Security Bank, and the University of Montana College of Business.
• 0:22
  [music]
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, folks, welcome back, and thanks for tuning in.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Today, I'm speaking with Chrissy McMullin and Jason Weiner.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Together,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: these two launched AI Realists,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: a nonprofit organization aimed at helping communities shape AI policies.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like that sense of,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: like I say AI, you have some nightmare that comes to mind and then that's it.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: I just got to let that thought go.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: I can't even sit with that thought in my head.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: AI Realist is producing events and conducting outreach across Montana.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Chrissy, Jason, thanks for joining me.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having us.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Pleasure to be here.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us, where did you grow up and what did your parents do?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Chrissy, let's start with you.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in rural Mississippi.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: My dad worked for the poultry industry, as in chickens.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And my mom was a med tech in the local hospital.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Jason, you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up in Concord, New Hampshire.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Just a short drive down the road from me.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: And my dad worked in a supermarket and my mom worked in a medical practice.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Christy,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: before we get into AI Realist,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: just tell us first, how did you get from Mississippi to Montana?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: But by way of describing that journey, give us a little career summary.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I came to Montana for the Environmental Studies graduate program here in 2002.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And right away,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I decided the main focus of my studies was figuring out a way to stay in Missoula.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was just really such a vibrant place with interesting people doing cool things.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I loved Montana.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the mountains, love the rivers.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent the first half of my career working on food systems and sustainable agriculture.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second 10 years or so, I worked on social services.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I was the executive director of Mountain Home Montana for a long time.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then...
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up working most recently for a national organization that uses technology
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: to make it easier to apply for SNAP benefits, which is food stamps.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that was my entry into AI and how cool AI could be because we had
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: a really amazing AI project that created a chatbot to help people apply
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: for food stamps.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then also then it introduced me to, hmm, I could see a lot of downsides here.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I started learning more,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: reading more,
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  SPEAKER_01: taking classes,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: really trying to understand the kind of benefits as well as
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: the potential consequences and downsides of this kind of wild new technology.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So Jason, you've done a lot of stuff.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: We've interacted along the way in several capacities.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: You've taught for us.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: You've been a student here.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: You've been a city council member.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Give us your career summary.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: I came to Missoula for a graduate degree in philosophy.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd done a little bit of work in finance before that, but it wasn't really my jam.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so I came out here and I just sort of powered through that degree,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: taught English and really enjoyed it,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: but figured I'd leave Missoula and I never really got a chance to leave.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I got a job at the independent right after I finished my degree.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I worked for a couple of years there doing arts and culture stuff and During
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: that time,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: I observed the city council in action,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: which led me to going to a meeting, which led me to concluding I could do that job.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so as one does, you just get in the arena.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I did a campaign and got on the council and started working on
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: the governance side of things.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then I kind of got into politics,
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: like other people's campaigns,
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: because in politics, you get to decide who your coworkers are every couple of years.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: I was looking for some changes on that front.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I've always been interested in technology.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: So along the way, I founded my own IT company and that's how I make my living is IT consulting.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I would assume your entry into the AI world was just natural.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was just sort of this next thing that you were adopting or getting interested in
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: or excited about from a very early time.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I took a little bit of a sabbatical after getting done with city council.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: And during that time,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: one of the books I read was Super Intelligence by Nick Bostrom,
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  SPEAKER_03: who is a sort of philosopher of technology and culture.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, that was really my entryway.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: I ended up doing a master's in science and business analytics here at the university.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then I've just been following the trends and applying this stuff where I can
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: and wondering what it's going to mean for the future.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So Chrissy,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: you mentioned your work with EmRelief,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: starting to use technology to help create better access
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: to people seeking SNAP benefits.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: At what point did AI start to enter your consciousness?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then at what point did you start to get concerned about some of the implications?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: it was a fairly straightforward progression for ImRelief because they were trying
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: to use the best possible technologies to help people
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: and AI was becoming more accessible and just made sense to try it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually got a grant from Google.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: To build out an AI chatbot specifically to help people apply for food stamps or SNAP benefits.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So actually Google flew our team out to their campus.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: We got to work with Google engineers.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: We got to collaborate with a whole bunch of amazing other people.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Nonprofits at the international level who are working on really amazing AI for good projects.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was actually there that I also started to get concerned.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Ironically,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: even though this is kind of a big like pep rally for all the ways
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: that we could use AI to save the world.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: One of the first icebreaker questions at the Google headquarters in Sunnyvale was,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think the question was something like,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you believe that AI will ultimately benefit humanity or harm humanity?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just an icebreaker because you literally had to kind of like stand up
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: and walk around the room to the side of the extreme of that question
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: that you found yourself.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: You voted by walking, basically?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you voted by walking.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I noticed like almost no one went to the end of the room that was like,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: AI is only going to better humanity.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: People were strongly in the middle to the things are going to be worse for humanity.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is a room full of people who are either creating the technology themselves
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: or they're people who are using it for really the best possible purposes.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're going to find a group of optimists about AI,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I would have thought it would have been in that room.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you would think.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it wasn't.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, hmm, I need to really start learning more about what could go wrong.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started learning about how the chatbots are.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, they taught us at Google how kind of impenetrable the technology is.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do you mean by impenetrable?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: The people who are creating it don't fully understand how it works.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is a concern.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Especially because the technology is doing more than just what we tell it to do.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're asking it to make decisions for a lot of us.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: For a lot of cases, we're asking it to do things on its own.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't understand how or why it's doing things on its own, that can create problems.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that sort of surfaces all kinds of philosophical questions.
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  SPEAKER_02: Jason,
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  SPEAKER_02: sounds like maybe some concerns or at least some dose of skepticism was in the mix
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  SPEAKER_02: from the start.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've been an observer of the political economy of the world for as long
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: as I've been aware of its existence.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's safe to say that many people have some misgivings about the way
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: that the technology works.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I worry about it at that level and I think it has the potential
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: to be very disruptive economically as well.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's big unknowns about how this is going to impact
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: People's way of life, their mental health.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: This is a very powerful technology.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Language is sort of humanity's master key to the world.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's the way that we have propagated our culture and evolved so much over time.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we have essentially created things that have digested all of the language.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: And we're empowering them to use that on us and on our environment.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned, you used the word step change a moment ago.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do you view this as an incremental change or is this something more discontinuous
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: as far as its implications?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think about this like a concrete example of I would say where it's maybe more
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: than just an incremental change is that in politics over the last 20 years,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: we've really moved into micro targeting of people where you use like little bits
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  SPEAKER_03: of information that you know about
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: just to be clear,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: little bits of information largely derived from digital footprints
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  SPEAKER_02: that we all leave throughout our Google searches,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: our use of social media, et cetera.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Though we've clicked yes on the terms of service,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: we've not arguably consciously given our consent for this type of surveillance.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's every little bit,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: including how long you spend on the terms of service is a data point, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: This technology makes it possible to not just go from this person is
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: in this category and so this message might be more effective to This is
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: a message that's perfect for this person.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: That seems to me to be, like I say, it's a step change.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's like maybe not a discontinuity.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: We're not talking about everything changing all at once,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: but it's like a much more powerful way to interact with people.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Christy, describe the moment where you decided you wanted to do something about this.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So as with many things in life,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was kind of woken up by my daughter.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we were on family vacation heading to Mexico and actually we had a layover
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: in Dallas and we passed a billboard that had something about AI on it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even remember what the billboard said,
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: but Rasa asked some question about AI because she's heard me talk about it
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: and she's heard me, you know, mulling various ideas and...
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: She just said something and I just in a moment of kind of exasperation,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: well, you know, it could cure cancer, but then it will turn us all into paperclips.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought it was funny.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Classic paperclip problem.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just like, ha ha.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And she did not laugh.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: She looked at me with honestly disgust.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: She was just like, you are an adult.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: You should do something about this.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I just couldn't say that she was wrong.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I just had to say, OK.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of fumbled around in that moment being like, well, I just don't.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an adult, but I don't know what to do.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually I kept thinking about it and I was like, actually, this is kind of the problem.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to do.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually have been thinking about this for a while and I have a career
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: in social change and nonprofit leadership.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I'm kind of feeling stuck and feeling like this is not for me to weigh in on.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I finally was like, wait a minute, I think that's the problem.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think the issue is that so many
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: of us are concerned We see how this could go very wrong for us as individuals,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: for our society, for our species even.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we just are kind of frozen.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to change that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: We have to get into action.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we have taken action on really big, hard issues before.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we can do it again.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: If we want to have a future for ourselves,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: for our kids, for our loved ones, we have to start getting active.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: What are some examples of those big problems where we've taken successful action?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that is,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: you described the problem very elegantly in the sense that we feel helpless.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: We feel like this thing is happening to us.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: We're all walking to the side of the room that expresses our concern,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: even if we're close to it and thinking about it.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: What are examples we can hold onto of areas where we've broken that stalemate?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's maybe not as existential of a problem,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: but certainly a widespread global issue that seemed intractable was big tobacco.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: People smoked.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: That was the norm.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: People smoked on airplanes.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: People smoked on school buses and the teacher's lounge.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was just super common for people to smoke.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: People knew that it was killing them.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: The information was out there, and yet it just seemed like big tobacco was too big.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Too hard to fight.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: They had too much money.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: They had too much power in Washington, D.C. We just weren't going to be able to do anything.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And through a number of different really smart choices by a number
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: of different types of publicists.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back to my conversation with Chrissy McMullin and Jason Weiner after this short break.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: A New Angle would not be possible without the generous support of
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: the Headwaters Foundation,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: working side by side with Western Montanans to improve the health
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: of our communities.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't do that sort of work without access to capital and education.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Two critical catalysts offered by First Security Bank and the University
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: of Montana College of Business.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, this is Kelly Webster,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Chief of Staff at the University of Montana, and you're listening to A New Angle.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to New Angle.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm speaking with Chrissy McMullin and Jason Weiner about AI realists.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Jason, how did you two come to work together on this AI realists initiative?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: We both encountered a book called Moral Ambition by Rutger Bregman,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: who's a historian who's written a number of books.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: And part of what they do is sort of like offer curriculum.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so we convened a group of eight people around that and just talked through this.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what is this thing?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about AI Realist, the organization that you've recently launched.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: What is it and what problem are you trying to solve?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're definitely in startup mode.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jason said really well,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: the problem we're trying to solve is the spell of inevitability.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Just that it does seem like we're kind of stuck in this sense
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: that this technology is just coming at us and there's nothing we can do.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the number one problem we want to solve.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of the tactics that we think are going to be the most impactful and
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: the ways that we have the most leverage will be state level policy change.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of states are taking really strong actions around AI laws
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: and creating new legislation And I think this is Montana is
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: a really still accessible state.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know we have a lot of polarization,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: but it's still actually a place where we can get something done.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So state level policy change.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then we also really are interested in experimenting with Improving democracy
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: as best we can also because what we know for sure is that we're at the tip of
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: the iceberg with AI.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to need to have the best possible governance.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we can just in the 2027 Montana legislative session jump in there
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: and solve all the issues and do all the legislation we need.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to have to have ongoing really smart, timely, thoughtful decision making.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Just as we have these algorithms that can drive us to engage through whatever sort
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: of base instincts we have,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: these processes of language can also help us to achieve other ends if we set them to
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: A subset of this larger point that we're making about the way AI is going
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: to work out,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: that we have choices and intentionality,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: a piece of that is how is it going to impact democracy?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Is this going to be everybody getting whatever news just feeds their confirmation bias?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Or is there a constructive way to find out what people value in a relatively compact way?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: To expose them to what other people believe and find areas
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: where we can collectively govern ourselves better.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so something that moves faster than the government that we've had and
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: that takes advantage of the ways that we've mathematized language
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: and developed algorithms to Why is starting at the state and local level
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: the right move at this time?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: A few reasons.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: First, it is the place where I think we just have the most leverage and access.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: As individual citizens.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: As individual citizens, yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And second, we're seeing that the federal government is fairly often locked in stalemate.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so on a lot of issues, people are turning to states to set the new standards.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And also,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: even in places where it's questionable as to whether the state has
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: the best jurisdiction or whether the state can really make the most influence,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: there's still message sending that we can do from our state.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when Montana is creating laws around what we do or don't want chatbots to do
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: with our children,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: we can We're not only creating laws,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: but we're also sending a strong message,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: especially when we're seeing other states create similar policies and laws.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes big tech say, okay, we've got to respond to this.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're hearing what the people want.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, big tech, I mean,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: it would appear to be trying to obstruct regulation by saying,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: no, we need this at the federal level.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't seem completely...
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's easy to say that's disingenuous,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: meaning you referenced the inefficacy of the Feds a few moments ago,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: but we see what's playing out in New York State right now,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: and their Democratic primary is attracting a ton of money from tech firms trying
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: to...
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Slow down candidates that are pro New York State regulation for AI.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you would think that having 50 different policies could be a real challenge
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: for these firms as well.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a reasonable concern.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: I can see the logic of trying to get things done at the state level,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: particularly here in a state like Montana.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've got pretty good access to our elected officials.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you would think if it's possible anywhere, it's possible here.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that we believe that the state legislature can do everything
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: that needs to be done about this.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: And there's definitely a role for the federal government to play in all of this.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: There are some issues, I think, that are just very well suited to state action.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: So things like product liability laws and things like that are really creatures of the state.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we talk about what legal status an AI agent should have and
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: who ultimately bears responsibility for what an agent does on the internet,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: those are things that we can establish at the state level and
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: that other states have established.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: That does seem to heighten this sense of inevitability
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: that this is – I mean sometimes it's said that like we're hurtling toward a future
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: that nobody wants save for five billionaires.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's like a pithy way to frame it but – It also seems like it fits.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Who actually, I mean,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: this future with existential risk,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: and if you look at the stock valuations,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I can see no other implication than the just elimination of like two-thirds of
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: the jobs that currently exist.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: That wouldn't appear to be a future that many people want,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: as evidenced by the walking pole we opened with.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: What you're up to is an effort to break this sense of inevitability.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a feature or a bug, this sense of inevitability?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I can't quite get my head around where this comes from and if it's by design.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think quietism is exactly the desired result.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, define quietism.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: I just got to dial it back and stay in my silo and why should I get myself riled up about this?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's nothing I can do anyway.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's too big.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like that sense of, you know, like I say, AI, you have some nightmare that comes to mind.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: And then that's, that's it.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: I just got to let that thought go.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: I can't even sit with that thought in my head instead of,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: well, maybe here's something that could be done to mitigate the risk of that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that seems like.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: The way that citizens in a democracy should react to their perception about where
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: the future is heading.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, this is a challenge that we just need to step up to.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: And the first thing doesn't have to be a fully fleshed out legislative strategy.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: You can really just say, I want this one thing.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: I want my children not to be experimented on by tech companies.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Chrissy, are there specific areas where y'all are trying to get started?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or at what stage of trying to set priorities are you?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: we're definitely still listening and trying to gather ideas and learn where
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: the most kind of traction and energy is in the state of Montana.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the poll that we have on our website.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there's ways for people to give their input about what's most important to them
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: or what they're We're trying to talk to people through community events.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So again, trying to understand where are people having the most concern?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where do they want to get involved?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And two places that we've seen,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: where we've just both started kind of trying to dig into the research on
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: that are likely hot spots for Montana or good traction spots
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: for Montana are around kids, protecting kids from manipulation.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: No chatbots for kids or a different sort of design?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: It could go on either end of that spectrum,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: but if children are allowed to use chatbots,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: those chatbots need to be designed for specific purposes and they need
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: to not be allowed to convince that child that it is a friend,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: that it has compassion for it,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: that it cares about it,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: that it has human emotions for it,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: because even if a child is Yeah, I'm not sure adults are capable of this anymore.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we've already seen young people have really some really terrible situations
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: because of that type of relationship with the chatbot.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a strong place.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a bipartisan issue.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: We all want to protect our children.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And another important issue that I think will have bipartisan interest and traction
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: in Montana is surveillance.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: We all want to protect our privacy.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: We all are concerned about government overreach or corporate overreach.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't want to be able to be surveilled 24-7,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like in the classic sci-fi nightmare scenario,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: which is now actually possible because of AI.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's tempting with this technology to just think like,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: what's going to happen in the future, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Will it take all our jobs or something like that?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Part of what's compelling about this moment is the current capabilities that are there.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I talked a little bit about that ability to just generate text.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: But the other thing that these platforms are great
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: at doing is processing massive amounts of information from sensors and...
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it really is getting to the point that with enough computing power,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: and if you don't really care too much about false positives,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: like you could watch everybody all the time.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that is not why people in Montana live here.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Jason, having served in government and studied philosophy,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: what's your threshold for deciding if it's appropriate for government intervention
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: in a market essentially?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Why is government the right solution here?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Are we currently in a market failure?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: How are you thinking about the need for regulation and what justifies it?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: We're certainly not talking about your Econ 101 perfect competition,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: no marginal profit kind of- Yeah,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: and these two-sided markets too where the revenue model is not necessarily attached
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: to the users.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Experience.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of a different thing.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: We see that with social media and so many different types of tech plays.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: We are not monolithic,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: so we often go back and forth,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: particularly on the issue of protecting children,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: just like know your customer kind of laws can be invasive in terms of privacy.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: But we know nothing about this kind of interaction right now.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: These companies do anonymized analysis of their user base all the time, right?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: They could be required to simply disclose,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: like, what do you know about the age profile of your customer?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: What are the typical characteristics of a conversation?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you might see some striking differences between somebody
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: in their 40s who's like, what do I do with this stuff that's in the fridge?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, what should I do with my life?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have any friends.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that might be striking.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: So some transparency there is not something in the market is going to provide to us.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it is something that I think that we need in order to understand these effects.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: So that would be one thing.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think there's things that the government just needs to do when
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: a new industry comes online,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: like define how product liability works in it to come back to that one.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: And like, who's responsible for what my agents do
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: on the Internet?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's all the time we have for this episode.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned for part two of my conversation with Chrissy and Jason next week.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to A New Angle.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you like what we do and want to support us directly,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: please consider a subscription at anewanglepodcast.com.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: A New Angle is recorded at Studio 49, a generous gift from UM alums Michelle and Lauren Hanson.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Our presenting sponsor is the Headwaters Foundation,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: working side-by-side with Western Montanans to improve the health
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: of our communities.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: We are also supported by First Security Bank and the University of Montana College
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: of Business, with additional help from CED, Drum Coffee, and Montana Public Radio.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Keely Larson is our producer.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: John Brownell, Jeff Ament, and John Wicks made our music.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot, and we'll see you next time.