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Slay Suspect Bryan Kohberger Spies on Female Colleague Thru Digicam? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. In just moments, we expect
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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, charged in the murders, the brutal murders of
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Speaker 1: four Beautiful University Idaho students, will be in a court
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Speaker 1: of law to enter a plea. Why because in the
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Speaker 1: last days, a grand jury, a secret grand jury, has
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Speaker 1: met and handed down a trivial indictments. But that's not
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Speaker 1: enough for Brian Coburger. Because in the last days, we
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Speaker 1: also learned that Brian Coburger, remember the pH d, the
0:56
Speaker 1: doctoral student in criminal justice, apparently installed surveillance video cameras
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Speaker 1: and a female colleague's home that he could tap into
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Speaker 1: any time he wanted. Let me throw a technical legal
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Speaker 1: term at you, perv I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
1:24
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
1:26
Speaker 1: and Serrius XM one eleven. First of all, take a
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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at kri em So.
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Speaker 2: I just got off the phone with the Leaytak County
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Speaker 2: District Court Clerk's office. They told me a grand jury
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Speaker 2: indicted Brian Coburger on all counts. That means the grand
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Speaker 2: jury found there was enough evidence in the case for
1:43
Speaker 2: it to go to trial. Now, Coburger will have his
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Speaker 2: arrayment on Monday at nine o'clock in the morning. That
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Speaker 2: is where he will likely enter his plea of either
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Speaker 2: guilty or not guilty. This grand jury process replaces the
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Speaker 2: preliminary hearing process that was scheduled for the end of June.
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Speaker 1: That's what we know right now and more from our
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Speaker 1: friends at ABC, just hours away from Brian Coberger's official
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Speaker 1: arraignment for the murders of Kailee Gonsolves, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle,
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Speaker 1: and Ethan Chapin.
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Speaker 3: The twenty eight year old suspect facing four counts of
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Speaker 3: murder in the first degree after his indictment by a
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Speaker 3: Leta County grand jury. Right now, although we seem to
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Speaker 3: have mounting evidence against mister Kohlberger, it's still anyone's game
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Speaker 3: because there's a lot of information that the defense is
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Speaker 3: going to hold and not release to the public. Coburger
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Speaker 3: is expected to plead not guilty. Authorities alleged Coburger orchestrated
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Speaker 3: and carried out the deadly attack and then returned to
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Speaker 3: work pursuing his PhD in criminology before making a cross
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Speaker 3: country trip home to Pennsylvania with his father a.
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Speaker 1: Lot of evidence the defense is going to withhold and
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Speaker 1: kp private. What does the defense have in their back
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Speaker 1: pocket any more? Women with surveillance cameras in their bathroom
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Speaker 1: and their dead and their kitchen and their bedroom with
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Speaker 1: me and all Star panel sins of what we know
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Speaker 1: right now? First of all, I want to go out
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Speaker 1: to Tara Malik out of Idaho, the jurisdiction where Coburger
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Speaker 1: is about to be arraigned, a former state federal prosecutor,
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Speaker 1: and you can find Tara at Smithmlick dot com. Tara,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us an arrayment. It sounds confusing,
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Speaker 1: it's not. The defendant is brought over from jail. If
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Speaker 1: they are on bond, they get a summons and they
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Speaker 1: come to court or else they're in bond forfeiter, and
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Speaker 1: they are taken to a podium. Their attorneys are with
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Speaker 1: them and they are read their formal charges, and at
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Speaker 1: that time they enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.
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Speaker 1: If they won't speak, their lawyer can enter the plea
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Speaker 1: for them, and if they refuse to do that, then
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Speaker 1: the judge will enter a not guilty plea on their behalf.
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Speaker 1: What do you expect at the arrangement. You're a veteran
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Speaker 1: trial lawyer.
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Speaker 4: What about it, Tara, Well, I think we are going
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Speaker 4: to see a very boring process. Most likely he's going
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Speaker 4: to show up with his attorney, Ann Taylor. He'll enter
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Speaker 4: a guilty or not guilty please. You know, he may
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Speaker 4: have some interesting body language. It'll be interesting to say
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Speaker 4: if he has any facial expressions during the hearing, but
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Speaker 4: it'll be rather straightforward, like you said, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: You know Chris mcdonnet joining me, Director the Cold Case Foundation,
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Speaker 1: former homicide detective, host of the interview Room, and you
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Speaker 1: can find him at the Coldcase Foundation dot org. Chris,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I am not found
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Speaker 1: one thing about this investigation to be the least bit routine, boring.
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Speaker 1: As expected, nothing has happened the way one would expect
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Speaker 1: it to happen, and that's after I guess I handled
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Speaker 1: close to ten thousand cases either investigating pleading out trials.
5:02
Speaker 1: When you're in a major metropolitan city handling felonies day in,
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Speaker 1: day out, that's not unheard of. There will be many
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Speaker 1: other people, most likely on the arrangment list. Typically, well,
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Speaker 1: in big cities, you'll have arrangements throughout the week. We
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Speaker 1: would typically have them twice a week, with one hundred
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Speaker 1: and fifty new cases on the on the arrayment calendar
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Speaker 1: each day. So when I talk about what's happening at arrangment,
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Speaker 1: this could be special set for Coburger, just Coburger, but
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Speaker 1: you never know what Coburger is going to do.
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Speaker 5: Would you agree with that?
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Speaker 6: McDonough absolutely, Nancy, and we have been talking about this
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Speaker 6: right on your show for months now, and every opportunity
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Speaker 6: that he gets it is always a surprise relationship to
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Speaker 6: if it's his legal team, you know, putting the affidavits
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Speaker 6: together to kind of circumvent the gag order. We now
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Speaker 6: find out that information was pretty much a tactic, and
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Speaker 6: now we have this other information that's floated to the top.
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Speaker 6: It won't surprise me if he raises his eyebrows just
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Speaker 6: for the attention, because he needs that attention. It's part
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Speaker 6: of his makeup right now, you know.
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Speaker 5: It's another interesting thing.
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Speaker 1: And I to go back out to Charle Malleck, high
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Speaker 1: profile lawyer joining us out of the Coburger jurisdiction of Idaho.
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Speaker 1: For so long we were told there was going to
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Speaker 1: be a preliminary hearing and I started screaming at the
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Speaker 1: get go, don't do it, don't do it.
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Speaker 5: Don't do a.
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Speaker 1: Preliminary hearing, because a preliminary hearing serves the same function
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Speaker 1: as a grand jury proceeding, which is held in private.
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Speaker 5: Do we have to say the name OJ.
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Speaker 1: Simpson preliminary hearing, which was a huge orcus the states
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Speaker 1: witnesses were really not ready to undergo cross examination as
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Speaker 1: if they.
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Speaker 5: Were at a jury trial.
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Speaker 1: A preliminary hearing of grandjury hearing is just to put
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Speaker 1: enough evidence up for a judge to say, yes, I see,
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Speaker 1: there's an issue of fact. You brought on this evidence
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Speaker 1: such as the DNA found on the knife sheath that
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Speaker 1: matches Coburger. Coburger says he wasn't there. He's not guilty,
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Speaker 1: So that's an issue of fact, and the jury is
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Speaker 1: the sole judge of the facts.
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Speaker 5: That's all it's supposed to be.
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Speaker 1: But somehow preliminary hearings somehow get out of control every
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Speaker 1: single time they happen.
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Speaker 5: Tara, Yeah, it's true.
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Speaker 4: I mean, every time you open it up into this
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Speaker 4: full kind of adversarial process you're going to have, you're
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Speaker 4: going to have things happen that happened during trial, you
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Speaker 4: can't predict perfectly what every witness is going to say.
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Speaker 4: You know, you don't know what the defense will try
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Speaker 4: and elicit out of them. So I think the best
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Speaker 4: way to go in these types of cases is grand
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Speaker 4: jury proceeding. There's no reason why you shouldn't do a
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Speaker 4: grand jury. Like you said, it's in private. You know,
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Speaker 4: the defense gets a transcript of it later on they
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Speaker 4: can attack it if they think the prosecutor did something wrong.
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Speaker 4: So there's still that due process element. But to open
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Speaker 4: it up to this full addressllual, you're going to get
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Speaker 4: the same issues that are kind of coming up or
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Speaker 4: started to come up in Coburger, where defense is going
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Speaker 4: to demand all sorts of you know, information prior to
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Speaker 4: the preliminary hearing and move to compel that information. We
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Speaker 4: haven't even gotten to discovery really yet.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And when Taro Malick is saying discovery, what that
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Speaker 1: means is that before you go to trial strike because
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Speaker 1: you already start putting up evidence. The state has to
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Speaker 1: hand over, for instance, all scientific reports like DNA fingerprints, fibers,
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Speaker 1: shape prints.
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Speaker 5: Anything that went to the lab. They have to handover.
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Speaker 1: Defendant statements, they have to handover names and addresses of
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Speaker 1: all the witnesses, plus a witness list. All that has
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Speaker 1: to be handed over by the state to the defense,
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Speaker 1: and in many jurisdictions the defense has to hand over
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Speaker 1: limited information to the state, so nobody is ambushed at trial.
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Speaker 1: So it's truly a trial based on the evidence, not
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Speaker 1: on ambush techniques. Guys, this is what's happening right now.
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Speaker 1: Coburger expected in a courtroom at any minute to enter
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Speaker 1: a plea of guilty or not guilty, to have his
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Speaker 1: charges formally read out loud in a court of law.
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Speaker 1: We're probably going to hear a flory of motions announced.
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Speaker 1: The defense, I'm sure, is going to want a slew
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Speaker 1: of motions to be heard, and then we begin setting
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Speaker 1: down the groundwork for the trial. We are also learning
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Speaker 1: at this hour that Coburger is an out accused of
10:01
Speaker 1: planting video cameras that he could access and a colleague
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Speaker 1: a female colleague's place. But first take listen to Aaron
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Speaker 1: McLoughlin NBC.
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Speaker 7: Brian Coburger, the man charged with stabbing four college students
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Speaker 7: to death, now indicted.
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Speaker 5: By a grand jury.
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Speaker 7: The indictment includes four counts of murder in the first degree,
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Speaker 7: and one count of burglary. If found guilty, he could
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Speaker 7: be sentenced to death. Coburger has yet to enter a plea,
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Speaker 7: but his previous attorney said he believes he'll be exonerated.
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Speaker 7: The indictment follows his December arrest at his family home
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Speaker 7: in Pennsylvania, more than forty five days after Matti Mogan,
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Speaker 7: Kaylee Gonsalvez, Xana Karnodle, and Ethan Chapin were found brutally
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Speaker 7: murdered in this college house.
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Speaker 1: Kri And reporting that the victims' families have issues with
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Speaker 1: what's happening right now.
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Speaker 5: Listen. Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up
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Speaker 5: until then, he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing
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Speaker 5: to see Coburger in June. A timeline you already had
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Speaker 5: a problem with.
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Speaker 8: Once you charge someone with an information, you normally a
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Speaker 8: plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out, and
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Speaker 8: they said six months out, you know, And I don't
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Speaker 8: think that really was of you know, It's that's hard
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Speaker 8: for a victims families, for all the victims families, that's hard.
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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Johnson joining as
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Speaker 1: forensic psychologists private investigator, performs assessments on violent offenders and
11:44
Speaker 1: is the author of Serial Killers.
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Speaker 5: One hundred and one questions.
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Speaker 1: True crime fans ask doctor Joni Johnson, thank you for
11:51
Speaker 1: being with us. I hear what the victims are saying.
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Speaker 1: It seems as if they were prepared to attend the
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Speaker 1: preliminary hearing. Instead, there is a grand jury proceeding that's
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Speaker 1: already happened, which I think is in the best interest
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Speaker 1: of the state and the victims families.
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Speaker 5: And they say that this is difficult.
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Speaker 9: I can't even imagine how difficult.
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Speaker 5: Here's the reality.
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Speaker 1: The grand jury move was the best thing strategically for
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Speaker 1: the state and for the victim's families. I think basically
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Speaker 1: anything at this juncture is going to be really hard
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Speaker 1: on the victim's family. Talking about the murders having to
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Speaker 1: see Coburger in court, going to a preliminary hearing, that
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Speaker 1: there's been a grand jury indictment. Anything is going to
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Speaker 1: be hard for them because they're having the worst time
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Speaker 1: that they will ever have in their lives.
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Speaker 9: You're absolutely right, and I think that just shows probably
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Speaker 9: the disconnect between what is best strategically from a legal
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Speaker 9: standpoint and what the family's feeling, and you're absolutely right.
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Speaker 9: I mean, this is the worst case scenario. They've had
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Speaker 9: no control over anything in their lives. They've lost the
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Speaker 9: most important people in their lives, and now they're getting surprised,
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Speaker 9: you know, and so nothing is going to feel good.
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Speaker 9: Everything is going to be painful, and I'm sure every
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Speaker 9: bump in the road for them, and of course a
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Speaker 9: surprise is going to be a bump in the road
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Speaker 9: no matter how much the big picture says, yes, this
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Speaker 9: is the best thing. It must feel like again once again,
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Speaker 9: the rug is being pulled out from under them.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a lose lose scenario for the state
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Speaker 1: because no matter what they do, it's going to hurt
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Speaker 1: the victims, their feelings, their emotions, and there's no way
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Speaker 1: around it. I want to play that one more time,
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Speaker 1: exactly what the victims and and this is specifically the
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Speaker 1: gonsalvast family. They are the ones speaking out against what's happening. Listen,
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Speaker 1: Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up until then,
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Speaker 1: he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing to see
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Speaker 1: Coburger in June, a timeline he already had a problem with.
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Speaker 8: Once you charge someone with an on an information, you
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Speaker 8: normally plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out,
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Speaker 8: and they said six months out, you know, and I
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Speaker 8: don't think that really was of you know, it's that's
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Speaker 8: hard for a victim's families, for all the victims families,
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Speaker 8: that's hard.
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Speaker 1: Okay, someone is not explaining this properly to the victims
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Speaker 1: family number one, and Tara jump in if I've got
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Speaker 1: the Idaho law incorrectly. An information is when a prosecutor
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Speaker 1: gets their notepad all on their own and they went, okay,
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Speaker 1: I've read the police report. I'm charging Coburger with four
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Speaker 1: council murder, and that's the formal charge. You don't want that. Yes,
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Speaker 1: it's acceptable in a court of law, but you don't
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Speaker 1: want that on appeal. A grand jury is much more reliable.
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Speaker 1: A grand jury of say thirty or forty people, hearing
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Speaker 1: the evidence and hearing witnesses is much more reliable and
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Speaker 1: solid on appeal when it's being attacked by a defense lawyer,
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Speaker 1: then a single prosecutor going eh, I think I'll go with.
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Speaker 5: Murder and four accounts. No, don't do that.
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Speaker 1: So initially drawing this up as an information was basically
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Speaker 1: a placeholder. I think they knew all along they were
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Speaker 1: going to have a grand jury.
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Speaker 5: So that needs to be explained to the family.
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Speaker 1: We want a conviction, as victims' families, we want a
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Speaker 1: conviction that will hold up on appeal, not a quick
15:32
Speaker 1: answer that we'll do for today. We want something lasting,
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Speaker 1: that is tried and true, that can stand the test
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Speaker 1: of fire on appeal when it is questioned and poked
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Speaker 1: and prodded. So the state absolutely did the right thing,
15:48
Speaker 1: not proceeding on what it's called an information or an
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Speaker 1: informational They went to a grand jury. Now again, the
15:55
Speaker 1: reason not to have a preliminary hearing is because it
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Speaker 1: subjects your witnesses is to cross examination far in advance
16:03
Speaker 1: to the jury trial. Why do that? Why put them
16:06
Speaker 1: through that? And why show the defanced your whole playbook at.
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Speaker 5: A preliminary hearing?
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Speaker 1: Again, does anybody remember, I mean, Chris mcdunno, do you
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Speaker 1: remember the Orenthal James sent some preliminary hearing. It truly
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Speaker 1: was like a circus. There should have been one witness,
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Speaker 1: the lead detective, who can speak hearsay at a grand
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Speaker 1: jury and that's okay at a grand jury. Instead it
16:32
Speaker 1: turned into a debacle. We don't want a debacle in
16:35
Speaker 1: the Coburger trial.
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Speaker 6: One percent agree with you, Nancy that you know, in
16:41
Speaker 6: the Oja trial, as we remember, you know, you're one
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Speaker 6: hundred percent right, it did turn into you know, it's
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Speaker 6: just this unbelievable flow of information going one way. And
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Speaker 6: I think one of the challenges that the PD has
16:57
Speaker 6: had here, I mean from an investigative aspect is, you know,
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Speaker 6: they really do need to assign a liaison. I don't
17:04
Speaker 6: know what they have or haven't, but it sounds like
17:06
Speaker 6: they haven't. And you know, you've got to do that
17:09
Speaker 6: immediately when these high profile things go, you know, take place,
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Speaker 6: and you've got to get everybody in the same room
17:15
Speaker 6: and say, look, we need to go into that courtroom
17:19
Speaker 6: and you know, armed arm in arm with the district attorney.
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Speaker 6: I mean, how many families have you seen in your career, Nancy,
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Speaker 6: where you're fighting the family and you're trying to fight
17:30
Speaker 6: the defendant at the same time.
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Speaker 5: That is awful. Chris McDonough.
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Speaker 1: The family needs to be in lockstep with the prosecutor,
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Speaker 1: and that is not the family's responsibility. You're right, there
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Speaker 1: needs to be a liaison because remember what I just
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Speaker 1: played you from the Gonsolvest family lawyer Gray Gray found
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Speaker 1: out about the indictment through an email. That's all wrong
17:57
Speaker 1: right there.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's horre.
17:58
Speaker 1: Prosecutor or the liaison that you're referring to, should have
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Speaker 1: called the family look and said, look, we're having a
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Speaker 1: grand jury, and this is why this is the best thing.
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Speaker 1: Because I'm miss screaming since day one. They do not
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Speaker 1: need to do a preliminary hearing. N Oh, just fraught
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Speaker 1: with danger. Guys, that's not the only thing happening in
18:17
Speaker 1: the news right now regarding Coburger. As we wait for
18:20
Speaker 1: him to come into the courtroom, let's take a listen
18:23
Speaker 1: to our friend Kelly Beeson.
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Speaker 10: Rian Coberger was involved in another crime that happened before
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Speaker 10: these murders. Now, this incident involved his female coworker at
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Speaker 10: Washington State University, where someone allegedly broke into the woman's
18:37
Speaker 10: apartment and moved things around. Instead of calling police, the
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Speaker 10: coworker called Coburger, who suggested and helped her install security cameras.
18:46
Speaker 10: But the report says Coburger was behind that break in
18:50
Speaker 10: and use those cameras to spy on her. It just
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Speaker 10: gets worse It's not that he just helped his doll
18:58
Speaker 10: these security video cameras.
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Speaker 1: I actually think he faked a break in to get
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Speaker 1: her to get the cameras.
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Speaker 5: It's very intricate in the planning. Joining me right now.
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Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole Parton. You can
19:16
Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at Nicole Parton. Nicole, What happened?
19:20
Speaker 11: So Nancy? Brian Colberger, he befriended this colleague of his
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Speaker 11: at Washington State University, and then it's alleged that he
19:28
Speaker 11: went to her home, broke into her home and would
19:31
Speaker 11: move things around. He didn't steal anything, but imagine going
19:35
Speaker 11: into your home and now your sofa is moved from
19:38
Speaker 11: one place to the other, or your phone or things
19:40
Speaker 11: that you've had placed in a particular spot or moved around.
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Speaker 11: It spooked the lady. So she comes back to work
19:47
Speaker 11: and she talks to her friend Brian, and he of
19:50
Speaker 11: course suggests that he come over and he saved the
19:53
Speaker 11: day when he got there. His suggestion was surveillance. You
19:57
Speaker 11: need cameras installed in your home and get guess what,
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Speaker 11: I'm the guy for the job. I can install those.
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Speaker 11: It's alleged that he installed the security surveillance videos, and
20:08
Speaker 11: because he had access now to the passwords and to
20:11
Speaker 11: her WiFi, he was able to log in and spy
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Speaker 11: on her throughout her home.
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Speaker 1: Every person in this studio has a is making a
20:20
Speaker 1: face right now, and I know it horrible face. Uh,
20:24
Speaker 1: and it's very very I believe probed to proves something.
20:29
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough that this alleged incident of him moving the
20:35
Speaker 1: woman's objects around inside of her apartment to make her afraid.
20:42
Speaker 1: Then she comes and tells him at work, and just
20:46
Speaker 1: as he is expected for, he expects this.
20:49
Speaker 5: Scenario to happen.
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Speaker 1: He then, as Nicole Parton says, saves the Dan goes
20:53
Speaker 1: let's install video cams. Finish that sentence, so I can
20:58
Speaker 1: snoop and spy on you and watch you change clothes
21:00
Speaker 1: and take a shower whenever I feel like it. Here's
21:03
Speaker 1: the critical part as it relates to the four murders.
21:05
Speaker 1: This incident allegedly took place just a few months before
21:10
Speaker 1: the four murders.
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Speaker 5: So what does that mean to you?
21:16
Speaker 6: To Chris McDonough, well, there's a high probability this is
21:21
Speaker 6: information that indicates pre incident behavior. And you know a
21:28
Speaker 6: Leffard doesn't lose its spots, right, Nancy. When we've talked
21:30
Speaker 6: about this, you've talked about this, You've stood on that
21:34
Speaker 6: driveway looking in look through those windows in the back
21:38
Speaker 6: of that house, and I think you and I both
21:40
Speaker 6: had the shame feeling of, oh my gosh, this is
21:44
Speaker 6: so exposed here. And now we learn that he potentially
21:50
Speaker 6: allegedly used his cloud based technology skills to go into
21:56
Speaker 6: a colleague house and up the ante, as Greg Cooper says,
22:00
Speaker 6: and it just makes you, It just puts chills down
22:04
Speaker 6: your spine of what other incidents are we going to
22:08
Speaker 6: find about learn about that this guy was, you know,
22:13
Speaker 6: really deep into his planning and the fact that he
22:16
Speaker 6: could move those items around potentially if it's him, and
22:21
Speaker 6: have that control over her. And then ultimately we now
22:25
Speaker 6: get to the homicides. You know, within a month or
22:28
Speaker 6: two after this particular incident's reporter.
22:32
Speaker 1: Mini would argue it the installing of the cameras and
22:35
Speaker 1: the spying on the woman in various states of undress,
22:40
Speaker 1: puttering around her apartment doing whatever people do in private,
22:45
Speaker 1: was simply a step in the progression leading up to
22:50
Speaker 1: the four murders, where many people believe he spied on
22:53
Speaker 1: the three female victims end up killing a fourth as well,
22:58
Speaker 1: Ethan Chapin. But the progression to step in the progression, guys,
23:05
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend at NBC, Keith Morrison.
23:09
Speaker 12: Our source says Coberger had befriended a woman in his
23:12
Speaker 12: graduate criminology cohort. The woman had returned to her apartment
23:17
Speaker 12: one evening and found some things amiss, items moved from
23:22
Speaker 12: where she'd left them in the kitchen, in the bath.
23:26
Speaker 12: Quite bizarre. So what did she do?
23:30
Speaker 4: Well?
23:31
Speaker 12: Our source tells us that since nothing had been taken,
23:34
Speaker 12: the woman did not call the police. Instead, she called
23:38
Speaker 12: her new friend, Brian Coberger, who our source says, volunteer
23:43
Speaker 12: to come over and take a look, and he soon
23:46
Speaker 12: recommended the installation of a video security system, and he
23:50
Speaker 12: Coburger volunteered to do the work.
23:53
Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Joni Johnston, forensic psychologist, can you believe that?
23:57
Speaker 9: Well, I'm fortunately I can't believe that. I mean, it
24:00
Speaker 9: just speaks to so many things about him in terms
24:02
Speaker 9: of his neediousness and his ability to act. I mean,
24:05
Speaker 9: this is somebody who befriends a coworker and pretends to
24:08
Speaker 9: be this nice guy that's up a situation where she's
24:11
Speaker 9: vulnerable and then takes advantage of it. And I think
24:14
Speaker 9: it definitely does speak to him progressing. I mean, this
24:17
Speaker 9: is a guy who even when he was an undergraduate,
24:19
Speaker 9: people were saying he was staring at them, and there's
24:22
Speaker 9: issues of stalking and those kinds of things, and potentially
24:25
Speaker 9: going to the victims homes and looking in. I mean,
24:28
Speaker 9: this is somebody who just really does get off on
24:30
Speaker 9: being in control and not people don't even have to
24:33
Speaker 9: know that he's in control. It's enough for him to
24:36
Speaker 9: know it.
24:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, just take a listen to our friends at NBC.
24:39
Speaker 1: This is Keith Marson.
24:40
Speaker 12: After the installation. Our spur says police believe Colberger, if
24:44
Speaker 12: he was close enough to the woman's apartment, could pull
24:47
Speaker 12: up the cameras himself for a look, because Coldberger knew
24:52
Speaker 12: the woman's Wi Fi passwords. Our source tells us that
24:56
Speaker 12: Brian Kolberger is now considered a strong suspect in the
25:01
Speaker 12: hearing that retired FBI profiler Greg Cooper offers this theory.
25:06
Speaker 5: What does that say to you? I would expect that
25:09
Speaker 5: he orchestrated the whole.
25:10
Speaker 1: Thing, Okay, orchestrating a break in, not to take anything
25:15
Speaker 1: but to manipulate items move them around inside his female
25:20
Speaker 1: colleagues apartment, knowing she would come tell him about it
25:25
Speaker 1: and he could offer to put in a surveillance system.
25:28
Speaker 1: Joining me right now is Bill Daily, former FBI investigator
25:34
Speaker 1: and expert in forensic photography security expert Bill Daily.
25:39
Speaker 5: Have you ever heard anything like this, well, Nanjie.
25:42
Speaker 13: And unfortunately, yes, I mean it is something that over
25:44
Speaker 13: the years, let's say specifically with somebody manipulating someone, but
25:50
Speaker 13: people going in and putting cameras in to be observing
25:53
Speaker 13: individuals and doing that in a way that doesn't suggest
25:57
Speaker 13: it was a crime preceding it, meaning that in this case,
26:01
Speaker 13: he didn't go in and rob the apartment, which would have,
26:03
Speaker 13: as as mentioned in the story just a few months ago,
26:06
Speaker 13: would have precipitated more police involvement, but but yet relied
26:10
Speaker 13: on him then as kind of this kind of savior
26:12
Speaker 13: to come in and allegedly, you know, help this individual.
26:16
Speaker 13: So I have heard of cases and it worked on
26:18
Speaker 13: cases in the past where where they have been surreptitious
26:22
Speaker 13: placement of cameras for various purposes, and so it's not
26:27
Speaker 13: surprising that in this particular case, and I'm going to
26:29
Speaker 13: kind of draw a little bit on from my my
26:32
Speaker 13: friends and the behavioral science part of the FBI, But
26:35
Speaker 13: this does demonstrate and could demonstrate leakage and leakage in
26:40
Speaker 13: this in this phase is really talking about kind of
26:42
Speaker 13: this progression, this kind of behavioral kind of uh kind
26:46
Speaker 13: of progression towards potentially those crimes that took place involving
26:51
Speaker 13: these students. So I think what we're all talking about
26:54
Speaker 13: here is that it's not just creepy, it's not just unsettling,
26:58
Speaker 13: but it does go to a kind of a state
27:00
Speaker 13: of mind and a manner in which she would behave
27:02
Speaker 13: by perhaps watching someone at a distance. And maybe that
27:06
Speaker 13: also ties into some of the reports Nancy, that we
27:09
Speaker 13: heard of him canvassing the home of the victims and
27:13
Speaker 13: doing some observation remotely and having actually been there to
27:17
Speaker 13: know what the layout of the flow plan was.
27:19
Speaker 5: You just mentioned, not just creepy, not just un settling.
27:23
Speaker 5: I agree.
27:24
Speaker 1: In fact, I find it primitive because if you really
27:27
Speaker 1: analyze what he's accused of doing, Bill Day, you see
27:32
Speaker 1: a fingerprint, you see a similar modus operandi method of operation,
27:39
Speaker 1: watching your victim at a distance, driving close enough to
27:46
Speaker 1: her home, her apartment, to be part of her WiFi,
27:51
Speaker 1: logging in possibly from remote, to watch her whenever he
27:57
Speaker 1: felt like it, praying on some one he knew, much
28:02
Speaker 1: as he thought he knew the victims at Idaho University
28:06
Speaker 1: of Idaho from contacting them digitally, spying on them, showing
28:13
Speaker 1: up at a restaurant where they were being around them.
28:17
Speaker 5: The victims.
28:20
Speaker 1: Also young females, likely similar in appearance and age, in
28:27
Speaker 1: the same area, in a similar housing situation, connected to
28:32
Speaker 1: him tangentially that he talks. In my mind, it's an
28:39
Speaker 1: outright similar transaction, thought jump Chris, Right, This.
28:47
Speaker 6: Is all in behavior very consistent with obviously dispossession, right,
28:55
Speaker 6: And it's kind of a build up for them. I mean,
28:57
Speaker 6: there's I've talked to suspects that first incident. It's almost
29:01
Speaker 6: as if, you know, the most exciting part was not
29:04
Speaker 6: necessarily the kill, but it was building up to that kill.
29:09
Speaker 6: And one of the things that we talked about on
29:13
Speaker 6: your show a while ago was the fact that the
29:17
Speaker 6: first thing the defense did when they went into that house,
29:21
Speaker 6: remember what they took, the first thing that smart TV. Okay,
29:26
Speaker 6: and that's on their affidavit, and the cops stood there
29:29
Speaker 6: and said, okay, all they did. You know, they took receipts,
29:32
Speaker 6: they took a couple other things, but they took that
29:34
Speaker 6: TV out of there. That makes one wonder what do
29:38
Speaker 6: they know and what's on that TV? I know they
29:42
Speaker 6: did a hard drive dump on it through the through
29:45
Speaker 6: the the what's it called the Firefox or whatever, the
29:50
Speaker 6: Amazon stick or something to that effect. So they did
29:54
Speaker 6: a hard dive or a dump on it, but they
29:58
Speaker 6: got that TV. And so you and I have talked
30:03
Speaker 6: about this. You just wonder what in the world, you know,
30:09
Speaker 6: was he really doing from his own apartment that his
30:12
Speaker 6: team comes in and says, let's get this quickly.
30:16
Speaker 1: I want to give a uh, let me just say,
30:21
Speaker 1: I want to refresh your recollection as it relates.
30:25
Speaker 5: To what this is all about.
30:29
Speaker 1: This is about Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Xana kernodle In
30:37
Speaker 1: Gellico'savice Kelly, Zana, Madison and Ethan lost their lives brutally
31:00
Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.
31:05
Speaker 5: With me.
31:06
Speaker 1: Doctor Janet Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us out of
31:11
Speaker 1: Clark County Office of the Medical Examiner.
31:14
Speaker 5: That's Las Vegas.
31:16
Speaker 1: Doctor Gorniac, could you remind us of the brutality inflicted
31:24
Speaker 1: on these four young, possibly sleeping university students.
31:31
Speaker 9: You know, you keep going back to the oj trial, right,
31:34
Speaker 9: And when I first heard about this, I too, along
31:38
Speaker 9: with other other people, who was surprised that one person
31:41
Speaker 9: was able to accomplish, you know, these injuries on all
31:45
Speaker 9: these people, whether they were sleeping or not. I'm just
31:49
Speaker 9: imagining how stealth he was getting into the house and
31:56
Speaker 9: just brutally, you know in size who established our force
32:00
Speaker 9: injuries on these on these young victims. And I just
32:06
Speaker 9: can't I just can't imagine obviously knowing that the brutality
32:10
Speaker 9: that he was able to inflict on each of these
32:13
Speaker 9: young people without any fight back, that makes any sense.
32:19
Speaker 9: And I, like I said, I was shocked that one
32:21
Speaker 9: person was able to do this.
32:23
Speaker 1: The degree brutality was immeasurable. What were the injuries these
32:30
Speaker 1: four victims sustained, Doctor Gorniac.
32:32
Speaker 9: They had multiple start force injuries. So when you talk
32:37
Speaker 9: about the stab wounds and size wounds, so obviously in
32:43
Speaker 9: cases like this, it's just a lot of blood loss. So,
32:48
Speaker 9: like I said, it's it's unimaginable that they could have
32:51
Speaker 9: all these wounds about their body without being able to
32:55
Speaker 9: wake up or fight back. It must have been so fast,
33:00
Speaker 9: you know. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out
33:02
Speaker 9: how fast and rapid it could have been to be
33:05
Speaker 9: able to to injure these young people like that. And
33:10
Speaker 9: it's interesting because I hear you talking about the preminary
33:13
Speaker 9: hearing versus a grand jury, and actually from where I
33:17
Speaker 9: sit because as an independent witness, even though most of
33:22
Speaker 9: the times we are called by the prosecuting the prosecutor,
33:26
Speaker 9: but I myself prefer the pliminary hearing as an expert
33:32
Speaker 9: because then you know where the defense is coming from.
33:35
Speaker 9: And it's interesting to see how we're different players in
33:39
Speaker 9: the whole legal system sit and how we approach it differently.
33:44
Speaker 1: Oh Mett, Doctor Gorniac, I understand what you're saying as
33:48
Speaker 1: a witness at trial, yep, that you want to know
33:52
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, and you can at trial, and
33:54
Speaker 1: you can find that out at a preliminary trial on
33:59
Speaker 1: your own cross examination. But most witnesses, doctor Garniac, I know,
34:05
Speaker 1: and I'm not even being a tiny bit sarcastic, doctor Garniac.
34:10
Speaker 1: Most of us are just mere mortals that probably would
34:13
Speaker 1: not hold up to cross examination as well as you, right,
34:16
Speaker 1: and as the prosecutor, I don't want to put a
34:19
Speaker 1: let's just say, a fearful witness or an easily intimidated witness,
34:23
Speaker 1: an easily confused witness up on the stand, so the
34:27
Speaker 1: defense can have not one but two cracks Adam at
34:30
Speaker 1: preliminary and the trial.
34:33
Speaker 5: I mean you would like make you.
34:35
Speaker 1: Know, child's play of a defense lawyer on cross exam.
34:38
Speaker 1: I'd like to see that cross exam myself. I get
34:41
Speaker 1: a bag of popcorn for that. But for most witnesses,
34:45
Speaker 1: you don't want to subject them to two cross exams.
34:48
Speaker 9: And that's what I would say. I mean, so for me,
34:50
Speaker 9: as like you said, as the witness, absolutely, but I
34:53
Speaker 9: can only imagine, as someone who's intimately involved in the case,
34:59
Speaker 9: how mentally challenging and you know, I mean devastating that
35:04
Speaker 9: that could have lasing effects.
35:05
Speaker 1: I mean, having testified doctor Garneac at my fiance's murder trial,
35:10
Speaker 1: I know I wouldn't want to do it twice. I
35:12
Speaker 1: absolutely would not want to do it twice.
35:14
Speaker 9: I agree, And so I see both sides. I see
35:16
Speaker 9: both sides, and I just want.
35:17
Speaker 1: To you know what's interesting, But jumping off what doctor
35:20
Speaker 1: Garneac just said, Chris McDonough, I'm just thinking about what
35:23
Speaker 1: the witnesses are going to have to go through at
35:25
Speaker 1: the actual trial. But I'm thinking about this female witness,
35:29
Speaker 1: the colleague that was tricked into having Brian Coburger of
35:32
Speaker 1: all people in small a security system in her home,
35:34
Speaker 1: the video cameras. You know what christmacdonna think about it.
35:39
Speaker 1: It was building in him even at that time. This
35:42
Speaker 1: is just like a tiny taste of what he was
35:45
Speaker 1: capable of. She should thank her lucky stars, thank Heaven
35:50
Speaker 1: that she was not murdered, this female colleague of his.
35:54
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely, And so when we think through that, he
36:00
Speaker 6: is fantasizing in relationship to you know, the big event.
36:06
Speaker 6: You know, as doctor Gary Bricado says, you know, he's
36:11
Speaker 6: he's eventually going to get to the place where he's
36:13
Speaker 6: the punisher. And you know, imagine sitting having her sit
36:18
Speaker 6: in that prelim and in front of him, not knowing
36:23
Speaker 6: what he's thinking about her while she's on that stand.
36:28
Speaker 6: Remember in the oj trial, Barry Sheck had doctor you know,
36:33
Speaker 6: the criminalist Fong on the stand and every time, you know,
36:38
Speaker 6: he didn't say he put two sets of pairs of
36:40
Speaker 6: gloves on Barry Sheck would say what about that mister Fong,
36:45
Speaker 6: And that resonated through the law enforcement community back in
36:49
Speaker 6: that time because I was there where we all started
36:54
Speaker 6: talking about not getting fonged.
36:57
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, I've never heard that before.
36:58
Speaker 1: I remember what about that mister Fong, but I've never
37:02
Speaker 1: heard about not getting fun I'm hearing right now. Everyone
37:05
Speaker 1: is headed to the courtroom for the formal arrayment.
37:10
Speaker 5: We'll bring it to you as we hear it. Goodbye, friend,