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What Does the Catholic Church Actually Expect from Gay Catholics? · The LIVing Room with Liv Harrison

0:00
SPEAKER_03: So I got on my knees in my bedroom and I told him, Jesus, you gotta show up now, or I'm gonna give the rest of my life to letting people know that you're you're a liar.
0:08
SPEAKER_03: I tried the chastity thing, I tried the virtue thing, and I was like, this sucks.
0:13
SPEAKER_03: And this is boring, and I miss my whole life.
0:15
SPEAKER_03: Whenever I tell my story, I like to emphasize to people that I experienced happiness.
0:19
SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna lie and be like I didn't enjoy aspects of my life, because I did.
0:23
SPEAKER_03: But I didn't know Joy.
0:24
SPEAKER_03: Because Joy is a person, right?
0:26
SPEAKER_03: Right.
0:26
SPEAKER_03: And she has a name.
0:28
SPEAKER_03: At the end of the day, I could have a girlfriend, I could still go to hell.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: I could have I could have a wife and I could still go to hell.
0:34
SPEAKER_03: Life is hard sometimes.
0:35
SPEAKER_03: There are seasons when I look at the church and I'm like, what am I doing here?
0:39
SPEAKER_03: There are seasons when I see men that I fall for and I'm like, man, I would really like to just be with you.
0:45
SPEAKER_03: You start with belonging.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: Why would I want to behave for a God that I don't even know just wants me?
0:51
SPEAKER_03: You know, I need grace to persevere.
0:53
SPEAKER_03: Because there are times when I do not want him.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: To be frank, this is one of those seasons where I'm like, Lord, I kind of don't want you right now, but I want to want you to be a big big big, are we feeling good?
1:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:29
SPEAKER_04: Feeling good, Manny.
1:30
SPEAKER_04: I'm feeling good.
1:31
SPEAKER_04: You feeling good?
1:32
SPEAKER_03: I'm feeling good, Liv.
1:34
SPEAKER_03: I am it's funny because this is in the middle of my workday, so it's actually a cool kind of break from work that I can like.
1:39
SPEAKER_03: It's just I'm a little Hannah Montana here.
1:42
SPEAKER_03: I'm living two different lives.
1:42
SPEAKER_03: I'm like love while I'm working, and then I close my laptop and get interviewed for a podcast, and then go back to work.
1:48
SPEAKER_04: You you've got a new job.
1:50
SPEAKER_04: Am I right, Manny?
1:51
SPEAKER_04: Like this is a new venture that you're on.
1:53
SPEAKER_03: I do.
1:54
SPEAKER_03: The Lord's, yeah, he's brought me here.
1:56
SPEAKER_04: So because you used to live in Texas, right?
2:01
SPEAKER_03: I used to live in Texas.
2:02
SPEAKER_03: I used to go to Steubenville, to Franciscan University of Steubenville.
2:06
SPEAKER_03: I studied there for five and a half years, and I um also worked there as a campus minister for three years during that five and a half years of studies.
2:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I just closed that whole chapter, moved to Texas for six months, was unemployed, seeing where the Lord was bringing me next, and then I got this job with Eden Invitation.
2:24
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I moved to Minnesota a month and a half ago for this job.
2:28
SPEAKER_03: So here we are.
2:30
SPEAKER_03: So here we are.
2:32
SPEAKER_04: Minnesota.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: I know, send prayers.
2:35
SPEAKER_03: It's honestly, it's not it was funny because McKenzie and I were texting briefly about this, but I I feel like I moved at the worst time possible, weather-wise.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: But the sun is out today, the Lord is slowly but surely paving away.
2:49
SPEAKER_03: So it's like I'm hopeful the text in me is not I'm hopeful, you know.
2:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna make it through, and it's probably best to move to a new place at the worst time because at least you get it out of the way.
3:05
SPEAKER_04: You know, and now you just have nothing but good from Minnesota.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: You're so right.
3:09
SPEAKER_04: We're here for Minnesota, especially summer.
3:12
SPEAKER_03: I've heard summertime here is bliss, so I'm just like, Lord, if we can just dial up the sun a little bit, and he has been, so I'm hopeful.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: Where are you at again?
3:21
SPEAKER_03: Where are you are you?
3:22
SPEAKER_04: I'm in Texas, I'm in Houston.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I was wondering that because you've gone wait, we're not on air, are we?
3:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we're recording.
3:29
SPEAKER_04: Oh, we are great, yeah.
3:31
SPEAKER_03: Great, great, great, great chit chatting.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: Great, okay, lovely.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: Love the book.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was gonna ask because you've been you went to cop because I'm from Denton's the DFW era, so I saw you were in Coppel doing a couple of things.
3:43
SPEAKER_03: Like super cool.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: Like you did stuff with like the Pro Life.
3:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, at the Pro Life Gala.
3:49
SPEAKER_04: I've made friends with Jackie Francois and Kristen Combo.
3:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I met Kim uh there.
3:56
SPEAKER_04: And um, who else is so anyway?
3:58
SPEAKER_04: They have this cool little girls group there and um and Claire Couchy, they're like the cool girls, they're like so rad.
4:06
SPEAKER_04: I just want to hang out with them.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: You're like, am I in?
4:10
SPEAKER_04: I listen, I don't know.
4:12
SPEAKER_04: If you could call and ask them, that'd be great.
4:14
SPEAKER_04: They texted me.
4:15
SPEAKER_03: They they are friends and they're all they're all great women.
4:18
SPEAKER_03: And if they come from the deeper, it's like the deeper Saint Anne's community.
4:22
SPEAKER_03: Like St.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: Did you happen to go to St.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: Anne's while you're there?
4:24
SPEAKER_04: Because it's no, but y'all are the magical unicorn of Catholicism.
4:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, is St.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: Anne's and Capell.
4:31
SPEAKER_04: Like, here's my theory.
4:32
SPEAKER_04: You're the only person.
4:33
SPEAKER_04: This is a true fact, everybody.
4:35
SPEAKER_04: Manny is the only human being to be able to escape St.
4:38
SPEAKER_04: Anne's and Capell.
4:40
SPEAKER_04: Other than that, no one has ever been able to achieve that.
4:42
SPEAKER_03: Right.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I will that's what I was gonna say.
4:44
SPEAKER_03: I almost like I almost feel guilty being like I'm a because St.
4:48
SPEAKER_03: Anne's is my home parish from Texas, but I feel guilty to claim because that's not where I am anymore, you know.
4:54
SPEAKER_03: Um I am one of the few who have managed to, I guess, who have had the heart to move elsewhere.
5:01
SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's a phenomenal parish and a phenomenal community.
5:04
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, there's a lot of friends there of mine.
5:06
SPEAKER_04: It is.
5:06
SPEAKER_04: No, you guys are Mecca.
5:07
SPEAKER_04: Like it definitely it's like the if if we had a holy land in, you know, the United States, it would be St.
5:14
SPEAKER_04: Anne's of Capelle.
5:15
SPEAKER_03: The pilgrimage site that is St.
5:17
SPEAKER_03: Anne's Catholic parish in Capel, Texas.
5:20
SPEAKER_04: I can't believe I'm saying that because I'm so anti-Dallas because I'm from Houston.
5:24
SPEAKER_04: So it's they train us, you know.
5:26
SPEAKER_03: Like when you're I was gonna say you've been kind of conditioned.
5:29
SPEAKER_03: I feel like for whatever reason, yeah, Dallas parts of, you know, parts of Texas have their own um rivalries.
5:36
SPEAKER_03: But you know why we're not a unified country in Texas.
5:39
SPEAKER_04: We have nothing to do.
5:39
SPEAKER_04: We should the second you get Texans out of Texas and you're like in France or you're in Italy or you're in New York, okay?
5:48
SPEAKER_04: Right, we're all Texans.
5:49
SPEAKER_04: All of a sudden, I don't care you're from Dallas.
5:51
SPEAKER_03: We're unified, right?
5:52
SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
5:53
SPEAKER_03: I'm like one nation under God, or one Texas under God.
5:57
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, we are all under God.
5:59
SPEAKER_03: We are all citizens of Texas.
6:00
SPEAKER_03: Let's all just have peace.
6:02
SPEAKER_03: Let's be unified.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: So that's what this is.
6:04
SPEAKER_03: Liv, this is what we're doing here.
6:05
SPEAKER_03: So this is what we're doing today.
6:07
SPEAKER_04: Today we're unifying.
6:08
SPEAKER_04: And and so, well, I know that I'm sure St.
6:11
SPEAKER_04: Anne's misses you because having you there must have been fantastic.
6:15
SPEAKER_04: But you just moved to Minnesota.
6:17
SPEAKER_04: How long ago did you move, friend?
6:18
SPEAKER_04: Like where did you have to do that?
6:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks for asking, Liv.
6:20
SPEAKER_03: So I moved, yeah.
6:21
SPEAKER_03: So I moved about a month and a half, almost two months ago at this point, which is crazy.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: That's so new.
6:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, it's it's new.
6:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, obviously, like spirit of transparency, moves have their challenges, right?
6:33
SPEAKER_03: Like there was mourning to happen, there was hardships, but also, yeah, it's truly been a joy.
6:39
SPEAKER_03: Like, I I'm blessed that I came here knowing people, I came here having friends.
6:42
SPEAKER_03: So, like, community's been good, work has been awesome, got a gym membership, so I'm taking care of the body.
6:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, don't want to flex, but it is a video podcast, so feel free.
6:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, maybe you want to give people what they want, Manny.
6:59
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
6:59
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, right, maybe this will up the views.
7:01
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
7:02
SPEAKER_03: No, but no, but it's yeah We're not that kind of podcast.
7:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, not that kind of podcast, right?
7:06
SPEAKER_04: We're not that exciting, right?
7:07
SPEAKER_03: Right.
7:08
SPEAKER_03: No, it's been it's been a gift, though.
7:09
SPEAKER_03: The Lord truly, it's like one of those things where I think, I don't know if you can relate to this live.
7:12
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure there's been seasons in your life with this, but like leading up to this, I was unemployed for six months, and it was one of those things where I think that six months, yeah.
7:21
SPEAKER_03: Well, that six months of unemployment post-graduation, I think, really um set the tone where I just really dove into his character and like really understanding father as father who provides, who gives good things, who doesn't set us up to fail.
7:35
SPEAKER_03: So that when I took a big leap like this, the foundation was there.
7:39
SPEAKER_03: Where even on days where I'm like, don't really know what's happening, God.
7:43
SPEAKER_03: Um, I I feel like he's softened my heart over the months prior leading up to just believing, like, okay, your father who says who is who he says he is, you're not gonna set me up to fail.
7:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm here and it's gonna get that.
7:57
SPEAKER_04: So I love that.
7:58
unknown: Yeah.
7:58
SPEAKER_04: So those six months, let's talk about that.
8:00
SPEAKER_04: Let's actually start there.
8:01
SPEAKER_04: I would love to like dive in because you're young and spry.
8:05
SPEAKER_04: What are you?
8:06
SPEAKER_04: 12?
8:06
SPEAKER_04: You're like nine.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
8:08
SPEAKER_04: Math is hard.
8:09
SPEAKER_03: You in 27 years.
8:11
SPEAKER_04: You are not.
8:13
SPEAKER_03: I am, and let me tell you, um stop it.
8:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, and these stripes, I own them.
8:18
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I love when people it's like one of those things where you're like, do I love or hate when people don't think I am as like it's like, but yeah, no, I'm 27 years old.
8:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:27
SPEAKER_04: Well, here's the thing: I'm 48, and everyone who is younger than me, I just say they're 12.
8:34
SPEAKER_04: It's just a blanket statement.
8:35
SPEAKER_04: Right.
8:36
SPEAKER_04: And in every scenario, I'm 97.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: Like I'm or 98.
8:40
SPEAKER_04: Like I usually say 98.
8:41
SPEAKER_04: So 12 and 98, there's only two ages, measure them.
8:45
SPEAKER_04: So I'm Liv Harrison, I'm 98 years old, and Marini Gonzalez is 12.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: So that's how math works.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: That's how yeah, exactly.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: And praise God for that, you know?
8:54
SPEAKER_03: Like, that's right.
8:56
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
8:57
SPEAKER_04: So, um, and so you don't act 12 and I don't act 98.
9:00
SPEAKER_04: So it all works out.
9:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and we both look great for our age.
9:03
SPEAKER_04: We look great for our age.
9:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:06
SPEAKER_04: You can be a little creepy though.
9:07
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you're, you know, you're kind of a weird 12-year-old here with this, you know, hair, but that's okay.
9:13
SPEAKER_04: A little facial going on.
9:15
SPEAKER_03: Let's and let's end that there.
9:16
SPEAKER_03: Keep going with what you're wearing about.
9:18
SPEAKER_04: Let's just end that.
9:18
SPEAKER_04: Okay, so you're 27.
9:20
SPEAKER_04: All right, we're we're back on track.
9:21
SPEAKER_04: And you went to college, you did all the things, you worked at your your university.
9:26
SPEAKER_04: For me, that's where you came on the scene for me was when you were at Franciscan.
9:31
SPEAKER_04: I don't know, we just kind of found each other on Instagram.
9:34
SPEAKER_04: We know some of the same.
9:35
SPEAKER_04: I think you know my son, Zach Harrison.
9:38
SPEAKER_04: You met him for a second hot minute.
9:40
SPEAKER_04: He was at Franciscan for about that long.
9:43
SPEAKER_04: And um, so just enough time to meet you, Manny.
9:48
SPEAKER_04: And um and so I kind of got to see a little bit of your story, which I of course want to get into in a second.
9:55
SPEAKER_04: But you decide to go on and you have six months of unemployment.
10:02
SPEAKER_04: What was that like?
10:03
SPEAKER_04: Like for real, like be honest with me with the Lord.
10:05
SPEAKER_04: Were you like, yay, Lord, this is fantastic?
10:09
SPEAKER_04: Or were you like, listen, Linda?
10:11
SPEAKER_04: Like, we need to oh, you know, like we were we were on the Linda path.
10:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was Linda for six months.
10:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, great question, Liv.
10:21
SPEAKER_03: I think um, yeah, I mean, obviously, if I wanted to be a ideal, you know, fluffy rainbows and sunshine, you know, I could sit here and say it was all great.
10:31
SPEAKER_03: But no, it was so, so, so, so humbling.
10:35
SPEAKER_03: Um, especially because, you know, um, yeah, I'd come from this background of ministry.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: I have, you know, um a lot of people's eyes on me in different areas.
10:45
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the question was constantly being asked, like, what's Manny doing after graduate?
10:48
SPEAKER_03: What are you doing after graduation?
10:50
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure God's got huge plans for you.
10:52
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure it's gonna, you're gonna like people projecting their own expectations and standards on me.
10:58
SPEAKER_03: And then I'm like, nope, I'm living with my parents.
11:01
SPEAKER_03: I am gonna be jobless.
11:04
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to be like, it was really just a lot of refining, humbling, um bare bones.
11:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, but also live, and I mean this genuinely, like it was one like looking back now.
11:20
SPEAKER_03: I wish I had the free time I had then.
11:24
SPEAKER_03: Like I had an hour and a half, two hours in the morning to just pray, to just be with Jesus, to just sit with Scripture, all these things.
11:30
SPEAKER_03: Whereas like my prayer life, looking back, right?
11:33
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure we had these moments where we look back, and at the time I was like, felt so, you know, again, humbled and small and little and bent.
11:41
SPEAKER_03: Um, but actually looking back, I'm like, wow, you were like your jar was being filled, like your oil, your alabaster jar was being filled to the brim, and you didn't even realize it.
11:50
SPEAKER_03: And now I'm in a season where I'm like, this jar is parched, and I'm working with what I had then, you know.
11:56
SPEAKER_03: So it's like, you know, so it's like I that's kind of a long-winded answer, but it was it was stripping, but it was also such a holy time.
12:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I was really, yeah, left to just break performance mentality, left to break anyone else's expectations on me and just be with Jesus.
12:12
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, and just be there.
12:14
SPEAKER_04: So I want to hear the real real though.
12:17
SPEAKER_04: Were you pissed?
12:18
SPEAKER_04: Did it suck?
12:18
SPEAKER_03: Like what I mean, yeah, totally.
12:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, then performing.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the real real.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, it's the real real.
12:24
SPEAKER_03: I think it's as disciples, we need to be honest about this, right?
12:26
SPEAKER_03: I mean, even now, there's still areas of my life.
12:29
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have this job in Minnesota, I've moved, I have great friends, I have a beautiful family, I have this platform, all these things, and there's still area.
12:37
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think there's at least for me, I can't speak for everyone, but I think part of the narrow way is there's always gonna be a part of the heart that's like, Lord, what what the hell?
12:49
SPEAKER_03: You know, two things can coexist.
12:51
SPEAKER_04: Yes, like I tell people all the time, yes, you can have like all you know, you had just gave us your litany of okay, I'm so blessed.
13:00
SPEAKER_04: However, and this sucks or this is the worst, or you know, whatever.
13:06
SPEAKER_04: And it's real.
13:07
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't mean that it's not real.
13:08
SPEAKER_04: And people will say things like, Well, but I don't have cancer.
13:11
SPEAKER_04: Yes, and that, but but this is your reality, and it's okay that this is, you know what, it is hard when you're 15 and you're the only kid that doesn't get asked to prom, that sucks.
13:21
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
13:22
SPEAKER_04: Like that is just that destroys you, you know, that is real, yeah, that is real, real.
13:28
SPEAKER_04: And it's okay to be in a place, be young, and say, Yeah, I've got all this stuff, but this also I it's not fantastic.
13:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, thank you, Lib.
13:39
SPEAKER_03: Amen to that.
13:40
SPEAKER_03: It's something I've been harping on people for with just yeah, the it's what I call like the both and of like, I just think it's the reality of living in the narrow way.
13:48
SPEAKER_03: I think we're not a prosperity gospel people that we just think that once you follow Jesus, and not to harp on it, but you know, like we're not I can't I refuse to believe this like false gospel of like once I follow the Lord, everything's just gonna be perfect.
14:05
SPEAKER_03: Like, that's just not how it's been for me.
14:07
SPEAKER_03: That's not how it's gonna be for me.
14:09
SPEAKER_03: Like it's living in the both end, allowing yourself to exist in that tension of like, Lord, you're good.
14:15
SPEAKER_03: I believe you, I believe you are what you say you are, but also there's this one part of my heart, there's this one area of my life, there's again, there's this, there's this thorn in my side that I'm just like, Lord, I don't know where you are there, you know?
14:26
SPEAKER_03: And it's like we have to give ourselves permission to live in that space, um, or else I don't know how sustainable the narrow way will ultimately be for us in the long run.
14:35
SPEAKER_03: Like, you gotta let yourself live in that tension.
14:38
SPEAKER_04: Oh, for sure.
14:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think we see it best with Mary.
14:41
SPEAKER_04: I mean, look at Mary, she got to hang out, she got to birth Jesus.
14:45
SPEAKER_04: So talk about know the Lord, like knew her savior.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: Consolation.
14:49
SPEAKER_04: Okay, like that's pretty close.
14:52
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
14:53
SPEAKER_04: And um, and then she had to suffer and she watched him die.
14:58
SPEAKER_04: And it's like, you know, she still has the joy of knowing the savior and being his mother, but still the Lord allows suffering and allows, you know, and what that looks like and how, but what did she do with it?
15:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, how did she, you know, what did she just throw up and say, Well, forget this.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: I, you know, forget this guy, and I'm not following God and did it.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: No, not at all.
15:18
SPEAKER_04: You know, like that's not what she did.
15:19
SPEAKER_04: And when we look to our lady, we can see how you can live in both joy and suffering, you know, and especially, you know, in these moments while you're establishing a new life, you can look to your mom and and see your your spiritual mother for comfort.
15:34
SPEAKER_03: The mom, our mother, our lady, and also like just so many.
15:37
SPEAKER_03: This is the beauty, I think, of like we just as Catholics have such a rich plethora of examples of don't.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm about to get on to the box here, but like don't even get me started on like on the box.
15:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're getting on the box.
15:49
SPEAKER_03: This is the same thing.
15:50
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for the consent.
15:51
SPEAKER_03: We're stepping on the box.
15:52
SPEAKER_04: Get on.
15:53
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I just I think it's just when it comes to the saints.
15:56
SPEAKER_03: We have a plethora of a choir of witnesses, and yet I think so often, at least in my experience, the saints are painted as this like converted, yay, Jesus, you know, received stigmata, floated in the chapel, whatever, and then they got to heaven and everything was great.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: And it's like when you actually dive into the reading, the writings and the diaries and the like just the lives of these saints, these witnesses, it's like there was grit.
16:20
SPEAKER_03: Like there was pain.
16:22
SPEAKER_03: There was like, and I love that.
16:24
SPEAKER_03: Like, I think it's because it's personable and it's relatable and it's real.
16:28
SPEAKER_03: Like sainthood is gritty and it's messy and it's raw and it's ugly.
16:35
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I mean, I think of the apostles too, man.
16:38
SPEAKER_03: Like Peter was a mess, and like Peter was a mess.
16:41
SPEAKER_04: Like Peter was a mess.
16:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
16:43
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
16:44
SPEAKER_04: No, they were human, yeah, and they were human first before they were holy.
16:48
SPEAKER_05: Amen.
16:49
SPEAKER_04: And we need to lean into their humanness.
16:51
SPEAKER_04: I mean, they had mental illness, they had addictions, they had, you know, temptations, they had sin.
16:59
SPEAKER_04: They see it's not like they came out and they didn't sit.
17:01
SPEAKER_04: This is the whole point.
17:03
SPEAKER_04: They all being a saint means that they needed to have a savior.
17:06
SPEAKER_04: They didn't come out as their own saviors.
17:09
SPEAKER_04: And so I think we don't do it justice to just talk about, you're right, like they're like it's important to know their holiness, but it is a both and of okay, but what about their humanness?
17:20
SPEAKER_03: Amen.
17:21
SPEAKER_04: And you're going through a very human thing.
17:23
SPEAKER_04: You're moving, you're transitioning, you are changing into this other life place.
17:29
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you're in your late 20s now, you're not a 21-year-old kid.
17:34
SPEAKER_04: You're a whole 27-year-old man.
17:37
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
17:37
SPEAKER_04: You've got a frontal cortex.
17:39
SPEAKER_04: I mean Yeah.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: I'm fully, yeah, we're fully developed up here.
17:43
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
17:43
SPEAKER_03: You're full grown.
17:44
SPEAKER_03: I'm full grown.
17:45
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
17:46
SPEAKER_04: That's you can rent a car, okay, y'all.
17:48
SPEAKER_04: There is nothing left.
17:49
SPEAKER_03: And I have, and I have lived.
17:52
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to adulthood.
17:54
SPEAKER_04: Right.
17:54
SPEAKER_04: So, you know what I mean?
17:55
SPEAKER_04: It's like, and you can see, I'm sure 21-year-old Manny and 27-year-old Manny are very different people.
18:03
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
18:03
SPEAKER_04: I would imagine.
18:04
SPEAKER_04: How take me through how have you evolved from 21-year-old Manny to who you are today?
18:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:09
SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
18:10
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is so fun.
18:11
SPEAKER_03: I almost, I'm like, am I in therapy right now?
18:14
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, this is great.
18:15
SPEAKER_03: Like, I've like.
18:15
SPEAKER_04: Yes, and you'll be getting my bills.
18:17
SPEAKER_04: So exactly.
18:18
SPEAKER_03: Venmo requests me after this.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:20
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, no, great question, Liv, in all sincerity.
18:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I mean, I think um, I think that means a lot of things.
18:27
SPEAKER_03: I think my awareness of my sonship is vastly different.
18:33
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think, especially for me.
18:35
SPEAKER_03: So I came back to the faith and it was seven and a half years ago.
18:38
SPEAKER_03: So at this point, I was 20 years old when I reverted back to the faith.
18:43
SPEAKER_03: Um, I come from a Catholic background.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: I come from, you know, it wasn't coming from nothing, like I came from something, but it was, I say seven and a half years ago is when I really, by the grace of the Lord, like actually decided like I'm gonna intentionally follow you in a variety of areas of my life.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: So that looked like, you know, in terms of sexuality, you know, like um, I'm somebody who, you know, is attracted to the same sex.
19:02
SPEAKER_03: So for me, like that looked like a very different life for me in terms of chastity, in terms of just where I directed my sexuality.
19:09
SPEAKER_03: So that looks different.
19:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, then we have, yeah, just in general, like the friendships that I navigate, right?
19:15
SPEAKER_03: Like my social life, like what I'm interested in, like all these things, right, that come with following the Lord and how life looks different.
19:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think when I was 21, to be so frank, I was a baby.
19:24
SPEAKER_03: And I think I was really excited about my faith.
19:28
SPEAKER_03: I think I was really, there was a fresh seal.
19:31
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think I also just didn't know what I was doing, quite frankly.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: Um versus like now as 27-year-old many, I can like confidently say, like, I have kissed the cross and a part of me hates it.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: But a part of me is like, right?
19:45
SPEAKER_03: Like I've I've lived enough life and I've experienced enough suffering, joy, you know, all the in-betweens in all different areas of my life that yeah, I mean, the um I think my awareness of the cross, my awareness of the resurrection, my awareness of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, all those things are just so much deeper, so much more raw, I think.
20:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, so much more experienced.
20:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
20:11
SPEAKER_04: You have perspective.
20:12
SPEAKER_04: You have perspective.
20:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
20:13
SPEAKER_03: It's almost like as you get older, you just gain more wisdom as you, you know, or ideally.
20:17
SPEAKER_04: Somebody should write that down.
20:19
SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right.
20:20
SPEAKER_03: It's almost like it kind of they'll live terrifying.
20:22
SPEAKER_04: You're on to something.
20:23
SPEAKER_03: Right.
20:23
SPEAKER_03: I'm on something.
20:24
SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't know if you, but it kind of terrifies me where I'll joke with people actually, like, it's funny we're talking about this because I'll tell people like, I can't, I don't even want to think about what the next seven years will be like.
20:34
SPEAKER_03: Because I'm like, if this has been seven years, it yeah, too much.
20:38
SPEAKER_03: I'm scared for what?
20:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, Lord, like what are you gonna do in the next seven years?
20:42
SPEAKER_03: But it also excites me.
20:43
SPEAKER_03: Again, they both end where it's like um life with Christ is a wonderful adventure, and a part of me's like, whoa, this is gonna be crazy.
20:50
SPEAKER_03: And the other part of me is like, I'm so scared.
20:54
SPEAKER_04: No, and that's I think that's very fair and very real.
20:57
SPEAKER_04: I think I I mean, I apparently today I am pretending it's Mother's Day.
21:01
SPEAKER_04: I don't know why I'm going so deep into my I'm here for it.
21:05
SPEAKER_04: Our ladies are yeah, but think about a baby in the womb.
21:09
SPEAKER_04: I mean, the last thing if somebody says to that baby, hey, we're gonna yank you out and uh and bring you into this other spot, the baby would be like, that sounds like a terrible idea.
21:19
SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't want to do that.
21:20
SPEAKER_04: Like it's very warm and comfy here.
21:21
SPEAKER_04: I get my food, like there's room service, you know.
21:26
SPEAKER_04: Right.
21:26
SPEAKER_04: Food on demand.
21:28
SPEAKER_04: There's womb service.
21:29
SPEAKER_04: Okay, that's I can't.
21:31
SPEAKER_04: There it is.
21:31
SPEAKER_04: I hate myself.
21:33
SPEAKER_04: Now I am 98.
21:34
SPEAKER_04: That would be something yeah, that was bad.
21:36
SPEAKER_04: That was bad.
21:37
SPEAKER_04: But I'm just but what would that baby have missed out on this entire life?
21:43
SPEAKER_04: And so you don't want to know the pain of birth.
21:46
SPEAKER_04: Of course not.
21:47
SPEAKER_04: Neither does the mother.
21:49
SPEAKER_04: But it is worth it to have that baby, and it's worth it to have life.
21:52
SPEAKER_04: And friend, I don't know what the next seven years are, but you're right.
21:55
SPEAKER_04: It is again, here's that both and it's scary and it's gonna be so funny.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: Phenomenal.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:01
SPEAKER_04: That in seven years you'll be like, Liver when I was a baby and I was 27.
22:06
SPEAKER_03: Now I'm 16.
22:08
SPEAKER_03: Wait, Matt.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: I've learned so much and I'm so wise.
22:12
SPEAKER_04: And it should be that way.
22:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:14
SPEAKER_04: Like that is the point.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: And then the next part is, and what, you know, I think this segues great into what you're doing.
22:21
SPEAKER_04: And then passing on your knowledge to the generation below you or your fellow people in your generation, you know, like passing on what you're learning and what you know is, you know, I feel like I don't, I don't want to speak for you, but I would say that's that's what your your late 20s, your 30s are is that you're getting more established into, and you know what?
22:41
SPEAKER_04: I have something to say to 21-year-olds.
22:43
SPEAKER_04: I've got something to say to a 16-year-old.
22:45
SPEAKER_04: I've I've got something to say to a 27-year-old.
22:48
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
22:49
SPEAKER_04: And sharing that.
22:50
SPEAKER_04: And now you're in this new, and I really want you to talk about what you're doing because I think that that's what's so exciting.
22:58
SPEAKER_04: Your new job, which congratulations.
23:00
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
23:01
SPEAKER_04: First of all, thank you.
23:02
SPEAKER_04: That's a big deal, friend.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate that.
23:06
SPEAKER_04: I mean it.
23:07
SPEAKER_04: And it's a and it's and it's a big deal.
23:09
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you're not just with like somebody, you're with a real, you're with like a real company.
23:15
SPEAKER_04: Like you're with like a real, you know what I mean?
23:17
SPEAKER_03: Insurance.
23:18
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's kind of cool.
23:20
SPEAKER_04: It's not like you're, I mean, no offense, like working for your dad.
23:23
SPEAKER_04: Not that there's any wrong dad.
23:24
SPEAKER_03: I got I have dental insurance.
23:26
SPEAKER_03: Like, this is big.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: You do not.
23:28
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I do.
23:29
SPEAKER_04: Stop it.
23:30
SPEAKER_04: You can crack a tooth.
23:31
SPEAKER_04: Listen.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: Right.
23:33
SPEAKER_03: How do you think we keep the smile like this, right?
23:35
SPEAKER_04: Gorge.
23:36
SPEAKER_04: It is beautiful.
23:37
SPEAKER_04: So, okay, so tell me, what is this new job?
23:40
SPEAKER_04: We gotta give the people out of suspense.
23:42
SPEAKER_04: What is it that you do?
23:44
SPEAKER_03: Totally, yeah.
23:44
SPEAKER_03: So I yeah, so Liv, so my my priority, my main job here, my primary job is so I work for a ministry called Eden Invitation.
23:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, so we are an apostolate, a lay, yeah, a lay-led apostolate for um disciples who have LGBT plus experiences and who are desiring to follow the Lord and just striving to pursue him faithfully in accordance with the church, in alignment with her teachings.
24:10
SPEAKER_03: And so um, there's a couple hundred of us.
24:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's scattered throughout, it's international.
24:15
SPEAKER_03: We have presences largely in the states, but also it's online.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: So there's also we have community members in different countries as well.
24:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, and it is a ministry that played a role, honestly, in my own coming home to the church.
24:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, as well as so it's so cool to now have this full circle when now I'm with them, working with them on staff.
24:33
SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm largely in charge of our development slash like mission partnerships.
24:38
SPEAKER_03: So like working with supporters and people, getting new people in the boat and just like our relational side of things from the behind the scenes.
24:45
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, so that's my job there.
24:47
SPEAKER_03: And then on top of that, I also yeah, do content creation.
24:52
SPEAKER_03: Um, I, you know, speak when I can, uh, do stuff like this.
24:56
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, so it's kind of a weird.
24:58
SPEAKER_03: I live a very abnormal life for 27 years old, but um, I would say the focus is largely on, yeah, just like um speaking life and hope into fellow disciples who maybe are in similar chooses as me or people who love people like us who, yeah, just amidst these experiences are desiring to pursue the Lord and um yeah, just like uh follow him faithfully in accordance with his church.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: Um so that's kind of where we are and where we're taking.
25:25
SPEAKER_04: So explain it to me.
25:26
SPEAKER_04: Pretend that I'm a complete moron, I don't know who you are.
25:29
SPEAKER_04: Totally.
25:30
SPEAKER_04: And explain to me you're you're in your teens and you're living a life of whatever you want to live, yeah, is what I'm assuming.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: Kind of just, hey, this is what I feel.
25:40
SPEAKER_04: You feel this, do it.
25:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you like this, this is great.
25:43
SPEAKER_04: I mean, kind of what the secular world tells us, right?
25:46
SPEAKER_04: You know, you do you.
25:48
SPEAKER_04: And then you have this conver like what happens?
25:52
SPEAKER_04: Like, what is your story?
25:53
SPEAKER_04: What is the moment?
25:54
SPEAKER_04: Take me through it for everyone that doesn't know.
25:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
25:57
SPEAKER_03: No, let's assume they don't.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: Yes, no, no, totally.
26:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:00
SPEAKER_03: So I was I was brought up in a Catholic household.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: So I definitely grew up with very faithfully Catholic parents.
26:06
SPEAKER_03: Just talked to mom before this.
26:08
SPEAKER_03: Hey, mom, um on the phone.
26:10
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'm very close to my family.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, but great childhood, raised in the sacraments, raised, you know, very well catechized.
26:16
SPEAKER_03: So I always grew up knowing of Jesus, right?
26:20
SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's kind of that classic cradle Catholic thing.
26:22
SPEAKER_03: Like, I grew up knowing of Jesus.
26:23
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know him personally, um, which I know isn't the case for everyone, but that was my case.
26:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, and then like very it was about my late middle school, early teen years.
26:33
SPEAKER_03: Um, I started realizing that I liked my male peers, that I was, you know, sexually and romantically drawn to other guys.
26:40
SPEAKER_03: And it spiraled me, freaked me out.
26:43
SPEAKER_03: I told nobody for a number of years.
26:45
SPEAKER_03: Um lots of suppression, isolation.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then it kind of came to a point where I combusted, where it was kind of like I ended up just telling mom and dad, honestly, not planned, it just happened as was.
26:58
SPEAKER_03: And then that was where I was like, okay, now I can tell everyone because I was always scared of it coming back to mom and dad, and inevitably it did.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: And so um, yeah, I just started coming out.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I kind of with that started to informal, and this isn't everyone's story, so I want to be clear with that, but at least for me.
27:15
SPEAKER_04: This is your story, yeah.
27:16
SPEAKER_03: My story.
27:17
SPEAKER_03: I felt like that came with like I could then kind of like informally leave the church with that too, and because I knew what the church taught on, you know, like being attracted to the same sex, and I knew I didn't want it.
27:28
SPEAKER_03: So it was like, well, yeah, you know, then chastity sounds like it sucks, so I'm just gonna go to it.
27:33
SPEAKER_03: So I did.
27:35
SPEAKER_04: And I didn't know I didn't.
27:38
SPEAKER_04: Heterosexuals also, Manny.
27:39
SPEAKER_04: It's not just for anybody.
27:41
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
27:41
SPEAKER_04: No, I said for heterosexuals also, it's not like chastity.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: Let's be honest here, you know, we're not anywhere, yeah.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: It's like exactly.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: But um, yeah, so for me, so that looked like for a number of years, like end of high school, early college, because I did college in Texas for a while before transferring to Franciscan.
28:00
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I just kind of uh uh pursued what I wanted to.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: Um I still tried to navigate faith in God, but it wasn't my top priority.
28:08
SPEAKER_03: Um and you know, whenever I tell my story, I like to emphasize people that I experienced happiness, like I'm not gonna lie and be like I didn't enjoy aspects of my life because I did.
28:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I didn't know Joy because Joy is a person, right?
28:21
SPEAKER_03: Right.
28:22
SPEAKER_03: And he has a name is Jesus Christ.
28:24
SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, I just didn't I wasn't actively pursuing him.
28:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, so thus there was a little wedge there, but nonetheless, he's so good and he was actually pursuing me and he didn't stop pursuing me.
28:36
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so what that looked like was then back in 2018, um, summer of 2018, he kind of did a little nudge on my heart where I, you know, I joked I'm Hispanic, I'm a little dramatic, and so the Lord comes to us and speaks our language, and so he knew he had to meet me in a dramatic way, and that's how because he's so good and meets us there, right?
28:57
SPEAKER_03: And so amen.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: He he came to me in a dream and it freaked me out, didn't like it.
29:03
SPEAKER_03: Um I was I just knew it was God though, and I knew I had to do something about it.
29:08
SPEAKER_03: Um, but to be frank, I didn't.
29:10
SPEAKER_03: I I um kind of just ignored it for a while, and then a couple weeks later, I ended up trying out the Catholic thing, I tried the chastity thing, I tried the virtue thing, and I was like, this sucks.
29:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and this is boring, and I miss my old life.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: And so I went back, um, started pursuing faiths outside of Catholicism.
29:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then October 2018, the Lord being a gentleman, just again very gently nudged on my heart.
29:35
SPEAKER_03: And that night it was too loud and too obvious to ignore.
29:39
SPEAKER_03: And so I got on my knees in my bedroom and I told him, like, Jesus, like, you gotta show up now, or I'm gonna give the rest of my life to letting people know that you're you're a liar and you're not who you say you are.
29:49
SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, he slowly grace started trickling in.
29:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I don't want to make it sound like it was that night when I'm done.
29:57
SPEAKER_03: Metanoia, ongoing conversion.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: We're still seven and a half years later being made new.
30:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, but slowly and gradually the Lord started moving in my heart to a point where I was able to, you know, distance myself from some social groups and start pursuing more, you know, things in alignment with, you know, the Catholic faith and the virtues I was hoping for.
30:15
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, and then eventually I go to Franciscan and I found support there.
30:18
SPEAKER_03: And it was just like an ongoing process of just my life slowly looking different, but looking beautiful.
30:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, that's kind of a synopsis, uh, obviously a lot of detail.
30:30
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, yes.
30:31
SPEAKER_04: That just kind of brings everybody to where you're at.
30:34
SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, I want to ask you this because I I feel like this is what I've always really been drawn to you is that you seem like a very real, real role person, not sugarcoating, you know, like let's just like that's why this is called the living room.
30:49
SPEAKER_04: Like, we're hanging out my living room, we're talking as friends, let's be real.
30:52
SPEAKER_05: Love.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: What do you say to people who are like, oh, well, Manny must have had like a really bad relationship with his dad, or he must have been sexually abused every day by 500 people, or he, you know what I mean?
31:09
SPEAKER_04: Like, and and the only thing that could save him is conversion therapy.
31:13
SPEAKER_04: And what are your thoughts on these things?
31:16
SPEAKER_04: Because I feel like this is an opportunity to educate people because I'm sure they say dumb stuff.
31:22
SPEAKER_04: Because they say dumb stuff to all people.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right, right about everything.
31:27
SPEAKER_03: I say dumb stuff, and you say dumb stuff.
31:29
SPEAKER_04: I say dumb stuff.
31:30
SPEAKER_04: So I'm assuming this is some of the dumb stuff that people say.
31:32
SPEAKER_04: I'm just guessing.
31:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, you're on you're you're hitting it exactly when you got email in the complimentary.
31:39
SPEAKER_04: Kind of go through some of those dumb things if you don't mind.
31:41
SPEAKER_04: If you're open to that, if you're if you're willing.
31:44
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm so down.
31:45
SPEAKER_03: Okay, cool.
31:46
SPEAKER_04: So let's go one by one and say, here's what people say to me, and here's the real.
31:51
SPEAKER_04: Do you know what I mean?
31:52
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'll let you talk.
31:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, Liv, I so appreciate you opening the space to this conversation because I think it's so yeah, one thing that I do, so you know, part of my, I guess I have like an I don't even know what to call it, but it's kind of like an online ministry where I yeah, use my voice in different public ways, whether it's on shows like this or through my platform on Instagram or through other ways speaking to just honestly bring exactly what what you are saying.
32:14
SPEAKER_03: Like I have experienced these hurtful things, and I know others who've experienced these hurtful things.
32:19
SPEAKER_03: I almost see myself as like a leper who's been with other lepers, and now I've been given a microphone, so now I'm like shouting in it like the this is what the lepers are feeling.
32:29
SPEAKER_03: So this is so my bane, and I would love to talk about these things.
32:32
SPEAKER_03: Please.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: Um I wish I had a bigger platform.
32:35
SPEAKER_03: The what?
32:36
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry.
32:36
SPEAKER_04: I said I wish I had a bigger platform for you, Manny, but together we'll do it.
32:40
SPEAKER_03: No, hey, this is great.
32:41
SPEAKER_03: You know what?
32:41
SPEAKER_03: The living room is a great way, and it's a great place to do it.
32:44
SPEAKER_03: Let's go in.
32:45
SPEAKER_03: Good.
32:45
SPEAKER_03: Okay, you go.
32:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think Liv exactly, I think you hit, I don't know how the saying goes.
32:50
SPEAKER_03: You hit it on the the nail on the head or whatever.
32:52
SPEAKER_03: Um that yeah, I think a huge thing that we're that we've been hearing and you'll continue to hear is this mindset of like, um, once I become straight, or once I like being a disciple, being a good disciple is synonymous with being attracted to the same sex and getting to heaven is being synonymous with being straight, right?
33:15
SPEAKER_04: Right.
33:16
SPEAKER_03: And it's like at the end of the day, um, I'll never like one time.
33:19
SPEAKER_03: This is a story I tell that whenever I talk about these things.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: So one time this woman came up to me after a conference that I spoken at, and she was just like, you know, like, Manny, I will be praying and praying for you um to find a girlfriend.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: And I just told her, I was like, you know, like at the end of the day, I could have a girlfriend, I could still go to hell.
33:38
SPEAKER_03: I could have, yeah, I could have a wife and I could still go to hell.
33:41
SPEAKER_03: Like marriage, whatever opposite sex, you know, partner, whatever, like that does not, that is not synonymous with Amen.
33:51
SPEAKER_03: Like at the end of the day, like there's a lot of married people in hell.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of people attracted to the opposite sex in hell.
33:57
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, and it's like we need to look at what the church teaches.
34:00
SPEAKER_03: The Catholic Church teaches that those of us who are attracted to the same sex are called to chastity, are called to virtue, are called to take up our cross and deny um ourselves.
34:09
SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that, I want to be very clear, denying yourself does not mean not being aware of the attractions you experience, not being, you know, honestly, chastity, so chastity defines integration, right?
34:21
SPEAKER_03: And so part of integration means being honest with yourself of like the longings, of the stirrings, of the desires, you know.
34:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, but where it looks different for us who are pursuing the Lord is like, but what this looks like is that I get to now unify with the Lord in a very tangible way.
34:37
SPEAKER_03: Like these, yeah, my sexuality, my desires, my longings, you know, in a way that um I think is kind of cultural, but also is good and is very fruitful and is freeing.
34:49
SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, I think my answer to those kind of ideas for starting, I we haven't even addressed father wound narratives, but at least for starting of like conversion therapy, you know, I think obviously virtue is good to desire, and it's also, I think, I would even argue, you know, I understand the catechism's definition of like, you know, disordered, the dis objectively disordered when it comes to, you know, like being attracted to the same sex.
35:14
SPEAKER_03: Because technically speaking, my body and my sexuality does, you know, in God's design, as a man, I ought to be ordered toward like my sexuality, I ought to be like that's just order-wise ordered towards women.
35:28
SPEAKER_03: However, that's not what sorry, my camera cut out, so I want to make sure the signal is good.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: Oh, good.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: Okay, we're back.
35:38
SPEAKER_03: Okay, do you cut out?
35:39
SPEAKER_04: You should be ordered, they can cut that out, they can edit that out.
35:42
SPEAKER_04: So go back to exactly what you were saying about you should be ordered.
35:45
SPEAKER_04: I just want to and I just want to be clear.
35:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, I want to be clear because this is very sensitive.
35:49
SPEAKER_03: And I think we don't talk enough about um the harms that have been done.
35:54
SPEAKER_03: Like, I think at the end of the day, I I empathize with anybody who has this desire, you know, you hear this phrase thrown around often, unwanted same-sex attraction.
36:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like, yeah, I don't who would who respectfully who would want this?
36:09
SPEAKER_03: Like it's like, right, you know, but at the end of the day, I think we need to be honest with ourselves of like, is the answer though, being rid of whatever?
36:20
SPEAKER_03: You know, because at the end of the day, I think I fear and I worry that sometimes we fixate too much on being rid of the cross rather than looking to like how do we support individuals who this is just this is the cross?
36:33
SPEAKER_03: And are we okay?
36:34
SPEAKER_03: Are we truly at peace with that?
36:36
SPEAKER_03: Like, are we at peace and okay as a church to say some of these individuals might be exclusively attracted to members of the same sex for the rest of their lives?
36:44
SPEAKER_03: How can we support them in chastity?
36:45
SPEAKER_03: How can we support them in virtue?
36:47
SPEAKER_03: How can we applaud them as they pursue sainthood, you know?
36:52
SPEAKER_03: Um that's huge.
36:54
SPEAKER_04: That's huge.
36:55
SPEAKER_04: You I taking your uh thing, you nailed it on the head where you said that we want to be rid.
37:03
SPEAKER_04: And it is interesting, especially with specifically homosexuality, right?
37:07
SPEAKER_04: There's some specific things that people want to rid.
37:11
SPEAKER_04: I love that you use that word for other people.
37:14
SPEAKER_04: Like I am, I am obese.
37:18
SPEAKER_04: I am a person of bigger nature.
37:20
SPEAKER_04: I used to be over 500 pounds, I'm not now, but I am not a size two, and I never will be.
37:27
SPEAKER_04: I am never, you know, as much as Sports Illustrated keeps begging me to be on their swimsuit, it's a no, okay?
37:34
SPEAKER_04: It's a strong no.
37:35
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's never gonna happen.
37:38
SPEAKER_04: My cross is my weight.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: It's a huge cross for me.
37:41
SPEAKER_04: And guess what?
37:42
SPEAKER_04: I've heard heard my whole life: how to fix it, to get rid of it.
37:47
SPEAKER_04: And it's like, if I if I wasn't a chubby gal, then the Lord would love me more.
37:53
SPEAKER_04: And yes, I would go to heaven and I would as if I can't sin in any other way.
37:59
SPEAKER_04: You know, as if food is the only whatever.
38:02
SPEAKER_04: And I I sit and I think about these things that I love that you said that about we think the answer is getting rid of it, and you're wrong, you're right.
38:11
SPEAKER_04: It's to lean into it and how you pick it up and bring it with you, not toss it aside.
38:19
SPEAKER_04: Because guess what?
38:20
SPEAKER_04: There's gonna be another one to pick up anyway.
38:21
SPEAKER_04: But you know, that's the one that you were given.
38:23
SPEAKER_03: Amen.
38:24
SPEAKER_04: This is it, man.
38:25
SPEAKER_04: And that's not scary if you're walking with the Lord and saying, and he's there to, he's your, he's your Simon, he picks it up with you, your Simeon, and and and carries it with you.
38:36
SPEAKER_04: It's not yours just to take.
38:39
SPEAKER_04: So what do you say to the father wound?
38:42
SPEAKER_04: And what do you say to conversion therapy?
38:44
SPEAKER_04: What I mean, and I know we're listening we could do this all day.
38:48
SPEAKER_04: When people are like, you should lose weight, you'd be healthier.
38:50
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, that's I'll write that down.
38:52
SPEAKER_04: That was such a great idea.
38:54
SPEAKER_04: I never thought of that.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: Wow, I never thought of that.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for I'll just stop eating.
38:59
SPEAKER_03: Wow, yeah, right.
39:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
39:00
SPEAKER_04: All right, good, good note.
39:02
SPEAKER_04: So, but I know they mean well.
39:05
SPEAKER_04: I know what they're trying to say is I care about you.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I care about your health, I care about your relationship with food, I care about your relationship with God.
39:14
SPEAKER_04: I know they're trying to do the same for you, Manny.
39:16
SPEAKER_04: I know that they just don't, they're not educated.
39:19
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
39:20
SPEAKER_04: They don't know any better.
39:22
SPEAKER_04: So, what do you say?
39:23
SPEAKER_04: Like, what do you say to those things when people say, Oh, well, it's gotta be his family, it's gotta be his past trauma, it's gotta be, you know, and this is the only way he needs to just bathe in the Bible every day, just rub the Bible on his face, and then he'll be cured.
39:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like you're something to cure.
39:43
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know what I mean?
39:45
SPEAKER_04: Like, you're not a disease.
39:47
SPEAKER_04: You know what I'm saying?
39:49
SPEAKER_04: You are perfect and beautiful just the way that God created you to be.
39:53
SPEAKER_04: And it's without mistake.
39:56
SPEAKER_04: And that's what I want people to come away with and saying, okay, so he did create you human.
40:01
SPEAKER_04: So you're, you know, like, yeah, and this is part of your humanity.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:06
SPEAKER_04: But what do you I don't know?
40:07
SPEAKER_04: I want to let you talk.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: What do you say to the people who don't maybe understand or they don't know how to express what it is that they're trying to say?
40:15
SPEAKER_03: First of all, probably shouldn't say anything, but yeah, I mean, I so appreciate your empathy, Liv.
40:22
SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, I mean, I think for starters, I think um what I would start with and what the Holy Spirit from my heart is just don't assume people's stories.
40:32
SPEAKER_03: Like, I think that that is a huge downside of this.
40:36
SPEAKER_03: I I think this, like you said, this narrative, I think, and what I mean by this narrative is these overarching conversations you'll hear where there's these cookie-cutter answers of, like you said, like, oh, this person attracted the same sex must be a father wound, must be mother wound, must be sexual abuse, must be, you know, peer relational dynamics.
40:53
SPEAKER_03: Which you know what?
40:54
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna say, for some people, sure.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: It is for some people that that is I just like I'm saying, you we need to hear stories.
41:03
SPEAKER_03: For some people, that is a part of their story, and maybe they can even pinpoint or feel the need to pinpoint that as like maybe this contributed.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: That's your story.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: That's your like who am I to say, right?
41:16
SPEAKER_03: I think where the problem comes is when we then take that and project it onto the whole population as you must be the like automatically assuming stories, I think is honestly, in my opinion, not even gospel driven.
41:30
SPEAKER_03: Because when we look at just basic, I'm a I got my master's in catechetics, and when we look at just basic um catechesis, when we look at just what it means to catechize people, what it means to meet people and bring the pass on the faith to people, it means being willing to encounter, it means being willing to accompany, it means being willing, you know, and all these things and involve listening to the unique human person that's before you and being actually willing to receive whatever their story is and not being quick to just say, I think I know what your story's gonna be, so I'm not gonna let you tell it.
42:03
SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna like assuming, right?
42:05
SPEAKER_03: I think assumption is such a um, even if well intended, you know, good intentions don't justify, you know, it's damaging wrong actions.
42:13
SPEAKER_04: So assumptions are damaging.
42:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think, and for me, I think it I mean, to be frank with you, Lib, it's personally wounded me to be assume like I have a great relationship with my dad.
42:24
SPEAKER_03: I have a great relationship with my mom.
42:26
SPEAKER_03: I actually joke with people, I'm like, I think I'm closer to my parents than a lot of straight people I know, but that's funny.
42:30
SPEAKER_03: But it's like, but like I have a great relationship with them.
42:33
SPEAKER_03: I have great brothers around me, I have great sisters around me.
42:36
SPEAKER_03: I was never abused as a kid.
42:37
SPEAKER_03: It's like these things where it's like, so honestly, it's offensive to me, where I'm like, it is that's my dad.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: That's my mom.
42:43
SPEAKER_03: Like that's my so it's like, yeah, I think even if well intended, even if willing to go to the other, it doesn't justify, yeah, this lack of not being willing to listen and this desire to just assume, right?
42:55
SPEAKER_03: And I think we need to be better as a church of just like actually being willing to listen to these stories and not feeling the need to correct when maybe somebody's story doesn't fit the mold of what we're used to, you know?
43:07
SPEAKER_04: Or what we assume.
43:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: Which we shouldn't.
43:10
SPEAKER_04: So what in what ways can somebody who is listening and wants to be not a come in and be a savior?
43:21
SPEAKER_04: I think that's also the hard thing, right?
43:23
SPEAKER_04: Like it's it's like talking about anything that is delicate, like race relations or anything where you're like, okay, how can I be an advocate?
43:30
SPEAKER_04: How can I be a supporter, but how can I not come in and be a savior and ruin it all?
43:34
SPEAKER_04: You know, like there's a there's a way, there's a delicate way of of how to uplift and encourage and empower.
43:42
SPEAKER_04: Is there anything for the straight Catholic society to do to be better at that?
43:49
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
43:50
SPEAKER_04: Like without being, I don't know, too much.
43:54
SPEAKER_04: Because I feel like we do that.
43:55
SPEAKER_04: It's like this pendulum, right?
43:57
SPEAKER_04: Like it's either it's too much either way of.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: like scrutiny and then trying to like you know be overly like whatever like supportive and you're like all right calm down like yeah right right you're like I mean honestly Liv I think you're hitting I keep messing up I keep butchering this saying but like hitting the nail on the head or whatever hitting the nail on the head that's it right there it is thank you Lord for like exactly what you're saying of like um basically what you just said if I could like summarize the last two sentences you said was just basically like can we I think my answer would be just be human to these individuals like I think the problem is we swing too much on either side like you said where either people feel the need to just constantly correct and uh emphasize doctrine and make sure like you have that barista with blue hair who probably identifies as queer and then you're like hey what's your name don't care the catechism teaches this and it's like well they're never gonna they're never gonna want to know the Lord through that kind of interaction.
44:56
SPEAKER_03: But at the same time then we can find the other end of the spectrum where then yeah we kind of you'll also see where it's like maybe like spaces or conversations where there is maybe some like lack of just overall clarity of what the church teaches or lack of stand you know so it's like I I think a good starting point with just being being human with these individuals with people um who have LGBT plus experiences.
45:19
SPEAKER_03: I think that we do not do enough of listening.
45:23
SPEAKER_03: I think we don't do enough of befriending I don't think we do enough of relationship in general and it's so funny because I think I've met so many people and I don't know if you have this experience but it'll be kind of a like you know as Catholics we're so quick to say you're not you know you'll hear this line thrown around all the time like you're not your sexuality you're so much more than that.
45:41
SPEAKER_03: But then all you'll hear from so many of us in the pews is like I don't know how to talk to them because they're just gonna I don't want to talk to them about the gay stuff.
45:49
SPEAKER_03: And it's like didn't we just say that their life has so much more in it than just that and now we don't feel like we can befriend them because we fear that all they're gonna talk about is that it's like so why don't we walk the walk and if we're gonna say this as a whole person with a story with talents with gifts with all these things then why don't we invest in that like why don't you actually befriending means getting to know their hobbies their gifts what excites them in life their friendships their job like there's so much to a person and I think just starting from that bare bones like just don't be afraid to be in relationship.
46:22
SPEAKER_04: Um just as Jesus isn't afraid to be in relationship with us as sinners we can't be afraid to be in you know we can't be afraid of being in relationship with other fellow sinners um which is everyone which is every single person on this planet amen totally every one of us so I know that sounds really bare bone and vague but I think for starters just being human with you know this population but sometimes it's the most simple answer isn't it you know like we try to complicate things too much and I think especially with something that if it's I th in my opinion when something is foreign to another person they overcomplicated it trying to like you know and I see that at the heterosexual community being like oh I don't understand homosexuality I'm gonna complicate it you know I'm gonna make it this weird thing that I can't interpret and then it's like you're right and then now we've made this huge gap between just being two people just human beings in relation with each other in friendship with you know like what are we doing?
47:21
SPEAKER_04: You know it's just relax.
47:23
SPEAKER_03: Amen so that's just kind of I think this is something that I feel like interjecting in here too but like one of the um just like a um I don't know how to frame it.
47:35
SPEAKER_03: I guess basically like a really good mindset that I heard in regards to just like just in general like every human person's desire to belong but also um how every human person ought to be meet by disciples is basically this like three stage kind of thing that it's um belong it goes belong believe and behave.
47:55
SPEAKER_03: Amen and basically it's this concept that you start with belonging you never and this is where we get it twisted is we think I'm gonna start by be I'm gonna start with behavior that I people are going to convert by me emphasizing how they ought to behave.
48:08
SPEAKER_03: And it's like at the end of the day any of us like most human be persons don't want like why would I want to behave for a God that I don't even know just wants me.
48:18
SPEAKER_03: You know so it's like this initial just basic concept of like belonging is the foundation for all human people to be met with.
48:26
SPEAKER_03: So as a church that is where we start of like how do these individuals how can I make them feel like they belong in my life personally but also in the pews?
48:33
SPEAKER_03: How can I make sure they know that they have a home here that they are welcome here that they are seen by the Father they are wanted by God not in spite of their experiences but amidst them like even there Jesus wants to meet you and love you and does love you.
48:48
SPEAKER_03: I think starting there is huge because then from that place right we tend we believe that God is who he says he is because we've experienced belonging within his church within his arms within his people and then from that place our hearts are just naturally gravitate towards asking those questions of like yeah how does he now now that I know that God I believe God is who he says he is and I believe the church wants me here.
49:12
SPEAKER_03: What is it that the church has to say about somebody like me you know and that can look like anything you know and then that directs kind of life in terms of just yeah how we live and things like that.
49:21
SPEAKER_03: So I love that.
49:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
49:23
SPEAKER_04: No, that's brilliant.
49:25
SPEAKER_04: And um and it is it's so simple and it's so and I but it does take such bravery and courageousness which I know that sounds trite or that just sounds like patronizing like I'm patting on the head like oh you're so brave man I you know 98 year old little 12 year old you're just doing so many things.
49:43
SPEAKER_04: No but um sad to say it is it is something to be brave and and courageous to just simply show up as you and say this is who I am this is who God created me to be and I'm doing my best like everybody else to get back to heaven period with what I was given.
50:01
SPEAKER_04: You know and that's it when we look at each other knowing that that is what this whole journey is about is getting our souls back to heaven full stop that's it you know and so that's it.
50:11
SPEAKER_04: And so I want to say thank you for the work that you're doing especially with Eden Eden International right is that the whole Eden invitation.
50:18
SPEAKER_04: Eden invitational I was like I'm saying it wrong Eden No you're okay don't worry about it.
50:21
SPEAKER_04: Okay gotcha gotcha gotcha and I want people to definitely check that out that doesn't mean start printing it off and putting on people's doorsteps everybody like that's not I mean hey you know what Loki we're always well we're welcoming people into the boat.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: So if you want to make easier to print off some posters and put them on.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah do it I love it.
50:40
SPEAKER_04: Manny at the end of every uh amazing conversation I get to have I ask my guest how can we pray for you what in what ways can we support you no matter when people are listening to this yeah they can stop and pray right now.
50:54
SPEAKER_04: And so what prayers do you need at this moment?
50:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah that's awesome Liv um I appreciate you asking I think um prayers quite frankly for me you know a just amidst this transitional period right it's like you said like the move is good but it's also hard in some ways and so I think on a human level just prayers for me amidst this new move and new job and transition season.
51:16
SPEAKER_03: But then I think yeah on a personal level if y'all could pray you know it's the reality of the cross right and I would be lying if I said you know this is how I fight imposter syndrome is pretty much any show that I'm on anything that I post I'd like to be very real of like life is hard sometimes.
51:30
SPEAKER_03: There are seasons when I look at the church and I'm like what am I doing here?
51:34
SPEAKER_03: There are seasons when I see men that I I fall for a guy and I'm like man I would really like to just be with you.
51:41
SPEAKER_03: And you know it's one of those things where I need grace to persevere and I I need as many people praying for me as possible in that to just just stay authentic to the journey um regardless of how hard or how messy it is and so if I could ask for prayers for just grace and perseverance um to want to want to the Lord right because there are times when I do not want him to be frank this is one of those seasons where Lent was hard and I'm like Lord I don't you know I kind of don't want you right now but I want to want you.
52:14
SPEAKER_03: So prayers for that would be so deeply appreciated.
52:17
SPEAKER_04: I love that to want to want you.
52:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah I think everybody can can absolutely relate to that manny this has been so fantastic I can't wait to like really have you in my actual living room and hang out.
52:28
SPEAKER_03: You gotta come hang out man with that when I was in Texas it's because it's seven hours across or whatever we would have had to take a whole road trip.
52:40
SPEAKER_04: It would have but you'd be worth it friend you would be worth a road trip so next time you're in town you let me know okay but thank you so much for this thank you thank you nothing but love and prayers God bless you thank you love and pray to his love God bless you