Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Lunch in Beirut: Hagar Chemali

Transcript

Lunch in Beirut: Hagar Chemali · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

0:01
I'm Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New
0:04
York, and this is In These Times.
0:07
My guest today spent years in top national security roles in the Bush and
0:11
Obama administrations, and served as a spokesperson at the United Nations.
0:17
But Hagar Chemali's personal story is just as fascinating.
0:21
Raised Christian in the US after her family fled the Lebanese Civil
0:25
War — when she was just a teen, Hagar learned a secret about her mother that
0:30
upended many of her life's assumptions.
0:34
Today, with a cross and a Magen David around her neck, Hagar proudly
0:39
identifies as Christian, Jewish, and as a self-described Lebanese Zionist.
0:46
Earlier this year, she launched the Lebanon-Israel Peace Alliance to help
0:49
push for peace and break down decades of legal taboos Pressure is finally
0:55
mounting to disarm Iran's proxy Hezbollah, including inside of Lebanon,
1:00
where the people are getting tired of being dragged into pointless war.
1:05
Haggar knows that there's work to be done, and she's doing it through talks at the
1:10
Munich Security Conference, appearances on MS Now, CNN, and HBO, and through
1:16
her own media network, Oh My World.
1:19
Hagar Chemali, welcome to In These Times.
1:22
Oh, thank you for having me, Rabbi.
1:23
I'm happy to be here.
1:25
I've, uh, been looking forward to this, uh, conversation for a long, long
1:29
time, and very grateful that you, you made the time, uh, to speak with us.
1:34
It's truly, it's truly my pleasure.
1:35
I was really excited when you reached out as well, you and your team.
1:38
So thank you for having me.
1:40
Uh, I want to talk to you about the Lebanon Israel Peace Alliance that you
1:44
launched, uh, earlier this year, and there's so many potentially exciting
1:49
things that are happening, uh, between Israel and Lebanon, including historic,
1:54
uh, negotiations that you're- you've been, uh, monitoring and, uh, you
1:59
understand, uh, maybe better than almost everybody else in the world.
2:04
But you, you have this unique background that brings you to this
2:08
type of, uh, political activity, and it's just fascinating.
2:13
I don't wanna, I don't wanna mischaracterize your story 'cause I
2:17
want you to tell it to our audience.
2:19
So you were born in this country, but you have a very interesting background from
2:25
Lebanon and a very interesting background and touchpoint with, uh, Judaism as well.
2:30
So tell us what brought you, uh, to this work, and what brought
2:35
your parents to the United States.
2:37
Sure.
2:37
You know, it's interesting because there are so, there are so many times I feel
2:40
like I was meant to do what I'm doing now.
2:43
Like, everything has kind of led to this point, uh, and I couldn't have foreseen
2:47
it along my career, along the path.
2:50
So, uh, to try and sum up, my-- both my parents come from Beirut.
2:55
My mother is Lebanese Jewish.
2:57
My dad is Lebanese Christian.
2:58
I'll get to the Jewish part because I didn't learn that I was
3:01
Jewish until I was a teenager.
3:03
And, uh, and they fled the civil war in Lebanon.
3:06
That was in the 1980s, right?
3:08
That's right, in 1981.
3:09
And my dad and his brother were kidnapped and brutally beaten because of an, uh,
3:15
a r- uh, it was actually a political family vendetta, believe it or not.
3:19
And, uh, and they were released on the condition that they leave the Christian
3:22
area of Beirut and go to the Muslim area, which during the civil war was
3:26
basically a death sentence So they decided to leave the country and they toured
3:30
the world for three months, and they had settled on moving to Milan, Italy.
3:35
So my life could've been completely different.
3:37
And they were visiting friends in Connecticut, where I live now, and
3:41
there was a complication with the pregnancy with me, which, so I like to
3:44
say that I chose Greenwich, Connecticut.
3:46
But my mom had a complication.
3:48
She was told she couldn't travel until I was born.
3:50
And my dad, being a businessman, was very happy to set up shop in the New York
3:54
area, in the New York City area, and so he opened a branch of his business here
3:58
in, in New York City, uh, a toy business.
4:01
It was importing and exporting toys, uh, coming from China at the time.
4:06
And they stayed.
4:06
And I love the story too, because his first business failed, and he…
4:10
It was just a very different system here.
4:12
And so my mom, two years in, said, "Great. Let's go to Milan," as was the plan.
4:16
She w- she's an art historian.
4:18
That was more the life she want- you know, the world she wanted to be in.
4:22
And my dad said, you know, "Just give me one more chance. Now I know the
4:25
market here, I know the business here."
4:27
And he ended up opening a different business, uh, for- on a very small
4:31
loan from a family member, uh, focused on just a different kind of im-
4:35
import/exporting discount items and, and gift pieces and decorative pieces,
4:40
and that business really took off.
4:42
And, uh, we've been in the United States, in Connecticut, ever since.
4:46
And along the way, my parents always told me how lucky I was to be born in
4:51
the United States, how lucky I was to be American, that I could do whatever I
4:55
wanna do and say whatever I wanna say.
4:57
And conversations about Middle Eastern politics, particularly terrorism
5:03
and extremist Islam, was always a big part of our conversations, and
5:08
I have no doubt that that's what led me to pursue work in the US
5:12
government later in counterterrorism.
5:14
And along this way, as I had mentioned, when I was a teenager,
5:19
my mother told us… We were raised, my brother and, and I were raised
5:22
non-denominational Christian, because she just didn't question a, um, kind
5:27
of the tradition in Lebanon, which is to follow the father's religion.
5:31
And she just didn't really question it.
5:32
She didn't-- She was trained to practice in secret her whole life, and
5:37
I guess she didn't want that for us.
5:39
And as teenagers, she told my brother and me that she was in fact Jewish,
5:42
and she didn't expect such an American reaction, which was, you know, at that
5:47
time we were like, "That is amazing. Can we get Hanukkah gifts too?"
5:51
And, and from there, she continued to practice in secret, and it was
5:56
my own interest in it as, uh, when I was in Washington, DC, a lot of my
6:01
friends there, Jewish friends, Jewish bosses, invited me for different
6:05
holidays, and I took a personal interest in it, and then, in Judaism.
6:10
And then when I had my own children, I told her, I said, "You know,
6:13
these traditions die with you.
6:14
I, I'm not sure I'm gonna take a crash course in becoming Jewish now." And, uh,
6:19
and so that's when she took an effort to teach us the traditions and the
6:24
prayers and the s- And it stunned me, because I had no idea this woman knew
6:28
the prayers in Hebrew, songs in Hebrew.
6:31
Um, it was… It's still shocking.
6:33
I still learn things about her and about this, about the Jewish community
6:38
in Lebanon and their traditions.
6:40
Uh, and so it's been a fun journey for me, but now I very
6:43
much incorporate it in my life.
6:44
I'm assuming you know, under Jewish law, you're Jewish if your mother's Jewish.
6:48
Oh, yes.
6:49
You wouldn't need to convert.
6:50
You, you're a good Jew.
6:52
You could be the king of Israel if, uh, under Jewish law.
6:56
That's right.
6:56
I, I tell people-- So first, I'm very proud of this fact, and so I
6:59
tell everybody immediately, um, that I'm Jewish, and I tell everybody
7:03
I'm a member of every tribe.
7:04
When they get confused- Yeah … I say, "I'm a member of every tribe." I saw,
7:07
uh, before we started filming that, if I'm not mistaken, you have a, uh, two
7:12
necklaces, a cross and a Jewish star.
7:15
So- That's right … are, are those your religious and national identities?
7:19
Yeah, basically.
7:20
You know, it's -- I went through this process a bit because particularly
7:24
after October 7th, I felt the, the need to be very public about my background.
7:29
So my friends all knew, obviously, um, and it's not something I sought to hide,
7:33
but, but I am also a public figure, and I never really discussed it publicly.
7:38
And that's a little bit my government training.
7:39
We just didn't really involve religion in our work because we didn't want foreigners
7:45
we worked with to view us as though we were guided, you know, that our foreign
7:49
policies were guided by a certain, um, a certain view or perspective in particular.
7:54
And so it was kind of a government training.
7:56
And so after October 7th, I felt a real responsibility
8:00
to be very public about this.
8:01
And I-- it's funny because of all the jewelry I own, these
8:04
necklaces are what I receive the greatest number of compliments on.
8:08
Even people you kind of -- who seem a little anti-Semitic,
8:12
by the way, um- Mm-hmm
8:13
and, and, and im- it's almost like they're just curious, and then they'll say,
8:18
"Well, that's amazing. I love that. Wait, tell me more." It's- So American, right?
8:22
I mean, there are parts of the world where that just wouldn't go.
8:26
Yeah.
8:26
Yes.
8:27
There's something beautiful about, about America and, you know, still that we're
8:34
saturated with this sense of goodwill and pluralism and, "Oh, that's great.
8:39
Um, tell us more about that." Yeah.
8:42
That's true.
8:42
I started working on Lebanon-Israel peace efforts last January, January 2025, when
8:49
a very small group of us saw the shift in geopolitical dynamics in the region and
8:55
this very unique window of opportunity.
8:57
And at that time in Lebanon, talking about working with Israel, peace with
9:03
Israel was very taboo, anything related to Israel, and in fact, it's why I am -- I
9:08
have not been able to travel to Lebanon.
9:10
I used to go twice a year for the, you know, the winter holidays and also summer.
9:16
And then when WikiLeaks cables were leaked, one of those cables detailed
9:20
a trip I took to Israel and meetings I had with the Mossad on undermining
9:24
Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah's finances.
9:27
And, uh, and it was somebody in the Lebanese government, a friend, an ally,
9:31
who said, "You know, this, this cable is circulating everywhere, and if I
9:35
were you, I wouldn't come for a while."
9:37
And, uh, and that's because at that time, Hezbollah controlled the
9:40
airport, so you just, law or not, you don't know what could happen.
9:44
I'm not a Lebanese citizen.
9:46
For Lebanese people, I will always be viewed as Lebanese and, uh,
9:50
which I understand, and, uh, and so it, it was too much of a risk.
9:54
And I share this story to, to highlight the taboo nature at that time.
9:59
And so February 2025, I was asked to talk about Lebanon-Israel peace
10:03
at the Munich Security Conference And it was very last minute.
10:08
I was only asked a f- a few days before to, to, to, to prepare and get to Munich.
10:13
And I was talking to fr- the, the few friends of mine who, where we
10:16
saw this, this, uh, this opportunity, and one of them said, "You should
10:20
really wear a, a Star of David.
10:23
You should wear the Magen David, and you should wear a cross to really
10:25
emphasize your own personal background and what it means i- in this, uh, and
10:31
how relevant it is to the work you're doing." And so it's a few days before.
10:35
I, I don't have much time, and so I ordered necklaces on Amazon.
10:38
Each one is about $12 or $13.
10:41
They're not real.
10:42
And I mean, they're not real pavé diamond is what I'm trying to say.
10:45
And, uh, but I was like, you know what?
10:47
I'll just get something quickly.
10:48
Let me get something quickly and, you know, later I'll worry about
10:51
get- getting something fancier.
10:52
And I go to Munich, and I talk about Lebanon Israel peace for the
10:56
first time, and, and a group of people stormed out of the room.
11:01
They were pissed that I was even talking about this.
11:04
Others gasped.
11:05
They whipped out their phones, um, to, to, to watch, you know, how on earth
11:09
is it somebody Lebanese is talking about peace with Israel, you know?
11:13
The blasphemy of it all.
11:15
Here I am with these necklaces and making this statement.
11:18
In, in the United States it wasn't like that, right?
11:20
Obviously.
11:21
Yeah.
11:21
In the United States, we are celebrated for that kind of pluralism, for that
11:25
kind of for speaking out as well.
11:27
Um, and, and I find, and I d- I have deliberately kept these necklaces from
11:34
Amazon, by the way, instead of going and buying real ones because, you know, real
11:38
gold or real pavé diamond, because I just love the, I love the whole story of it.
11:43
Now, I cannot tell you how many Lebanese and other Middle Eastern, those of
11:50
Middle Eastern background also, now I'm very public, they, they see what I do.
11:54
They seek me out.
11:56
But if they don't seek me out, they see what I'm wearing and they ask me.
11:59
And then when they ask me, they tell me, "I'm in favor of peace, too.
12:03
I hate Hezbollah, too." You know?
12:05
It's, so it's opened this up and opened that pluralism up and, uh,
12:10
and, and a real movement, if you will, which is v- it's very exciting
12:13
to, to watch and to be part of.
12:15
Before we get to contemporary events, your parents, w- h-how
12:18
did they settle in, in America?
12:20
Did they ask for asylum?
12:22
Oh, that's a good question.
12:23
No, they didn't.
12:25
They deliberately didn't ask for asylum, actually.
12:27
They wanted to… They invested.
12:29
My dad had his business, and I don't know if this is still the case, but
12:32
at the time, if you had a business that you opened a branch of, you were
12:38
able to get a certain visa for that.
12:40
And so that's how they came.
12:41
And my, I asked my dad this, why he, why he did it that way, because
12:46
he could have asked for asylum.
12:48
In fact, they took, he took photos of himself post the beatings he,
12:53
he went through in Lebanon in case he needed to apply for asylum.
12:58
And he told me that he, from the beginning, he knew he was
13:02
never returning to Lebanon.
13:04
And this is something he tells people now who, who emigrate h- into
13:08
the United States in particular.
13:10
He always says- He's never been back to Lebanon?
13:12
After the civil war ended in 1991, he would return for
13:16
vacation for two or three weeks.
13:18
Um, he didn't love it though, and, and, and after a while, he lo- he really
13:23
looked for any excuse not to go, and I think the reason, to be honest, even
13:26
though we had fam- we have family there, is he really, he really didn't enjoy it.
13:31
But regardless of going for vacation, he, he believes and, and tells
13:37
anybody w- or from any country when they emigrate here, he always says,
13:42
"It's best you don't look back.
13:44
You should make your roots here.
13:47
You should fight for this country.
13:49
You should contribute to this economy, to this society, and better yourself.
13:54
And you can go back for vacation.
13:56
You can have fun in your old homeland for vacation.
14:00
Um, but this is your home.
14:02
The United States is your home." And, you know, and I, you see this all the more
14:08
now, especially with, you know, when you see this, the free Palestine movement,
14:13
and I wanna say, by the way, the so-called free Palestine movement because those,
14:17
those, those kids hitting the streets are not doing anything to support the real
14:21
Pales- uh, uh, any Palestinian cause for the betterment of Palestinian people- Yeah
14:25
in any way, shape, or form, um, on the contrary.
14:28
Arguably, they're, they're actually harming because they're-
14:30
100% … setting back what should be a, a, a serious peace process.
14:37
Oh, completely.
14:37
And, and by the way, you have a number of, of very thoughtful, very brave
14:43
Palestinians who s- who talk about that, people like friends of mine like Ahmed
14:47
Fu'ad Al-Khatib, who's been very loud about this, and the greatest amount of
14:51
hate he receives is from young Americans who are hitting the streets who don't
14:58
know the region at all whatsoever.
15:00
And he talks to them all the time about how they're undermining,
15:03
um, anything that could lead to anything that's pro-Palestinian.
15:07
So he always says that the, quote on the so-called pro-Palestinian,
15:10
he puts it in quotes, so-called pro-Palestinian movement.
15:13
But with that movement You saw kind of an awakening among those who are Arab
15:20
American who seem to be fundamentally un-American, that are against American
15:25
values of, of democracy and freedom, that are against, um, American
15:31
values of, uh, of, of pluralism, of, of freedom of speech, or of why
15:38
we have the allies we have, uh, of American national security interests.
15:42
And i- there's, there seems to be this desire, and I know I'm,
15:45
I'm, I'm stereotyping here.
15:47
I'm not trying to blanket all Arab Americans this way.
15:49
It's, it's particularly those that have gotten politically involved lately,
15:53
what you see in Michigan, what you see in New York City, what you see in New
15:56
Jersey, where you're seeing those who want to change the American system to,
16:03
for what they think is right, um, and to advance their own agenda, but that j-
16:07
that agenda is fundamentally un-American.
16:10
Mm-hmm.
16:10
And that comes, I think, from if you weren't raised that way, the way
16:15
my dad is saying, "Forget the past.
16:19
This America's your home now.
16:21
America's the best country in the world.
16:23
Establish your roots here.
16:24
Contribute to the economy and society here." And those are the immigrants, from
16:28
any country by the way, you see advancing.
16:31
Those are the ones you see become wildly successful in the United
16:35
States from around the world.
16:37
Those are the ones you see chase the American dream and achieve it.
16:40
And there are many, many immigrants who feel this way, by the way, um,
16:45
including Arab Americans, by the way.
16:47
But that is why, to answer your question, why he didn't want to seek asylum, because
16:51
asylum implies that you're returning, and he just didn't view it that way.
16:56
He viewed it as, "No, I'm-- That's in the past now.
17:00
Lebanon took everything from me.
17:02
I, I need a-- I'm starting a new life.
17:04
I'm starting a new life for my family and for my children," and he understood
17:08
that American promise very, very deeply.
17:12
We have, um, I think, I think it's fair to say mostly a Jewish audience,
17:16
although a surprising number of, uh, people of all faiths around
17:20
the world listen to this podcast.
17:22
Just to go back to your mom for a second, um- Do you remember the day
17:28
when she revealed that she was Jewish?
17:31
And what did you, what did you feel?
17:34
Was it, did, did you feel deprived or did you feel, no, there were
17:39
reasons why she kept it secret?
17:41
Or w- and why did she keep it secret?
17:45
So I do actually remember this day very well.
17:47
And no, I didn't feel deprived, I think 'cause I didn't know better.
17:50
For some reason my, uh, uh, my brother and I, we were in her bedroom.
17:54
And out of nowhere, it was very random, but it was l- in the run-up to Christmas.
18:00
And she said, "Well, actually I'm Jewish." And so I don't know what,
18:05
what, what, what preceded that.
18:06
Maybe something related to, to Christmas.
18:08
But maybe some- Y- you speak Eng- you speak English at home with your parents?
18:12
Yes.
18:13
So I spoke, uh, growing up French and English.
18:15
My grandmother lived with us, and she didn't speak English, so she
18:19
raised… She, she taught me French.
18:21
I speak both na- perfectly natively.
18:23
Um, but for some reason my parents chose to speak to us in English, but they have
18:28
a heavy accent and I often make fun of it.
18:30
Some- I do satire for fun as a hobby, and, uh, you can see it on my Instagram.
18:34
I make fun of them all the time.
18:35
But, but fun in a, in a, in an entertaining, endearing way because
18:39
they're, they're the most amazing people.
18:40
Like I said, I don't know what preceded it, but she said, w- uh, I can never
18:44
forget 'cause it came out of nowhere, and she was like, "Well, actually I'm Jewish."
18:48
And my brother and I started jumping up and down.
18:50
I do remember that.
18:51
We started jumping up and down.
18:52
We were like, "That's amazing. We get Hanukkah too?" Because it was
18:56
that time, it was that season.
18:58
Presumably you grew up in Connecticut.
19:00
You presumably had a lot of Jewish friends.
19:02
You went- Yeah.
19:02
Yeah … you went to public school and there were a lot of Jewish- Exactly
19:06
people there.
19:06
Yeah.
19:06
Yes.
19:06
At- Yeah … at that time I ca- I don't know.
19:08
I was in public elementary school and then I switched to private school, but,
19:11
uh, but I had Jewish friends in both.
19:13
That's what we knew.
19:14
We knew that our Jewish friends had eight nights of gifts.
19:19
This is what we knew, right?
19:20
We, they had eight, eight nights of gifts.
19:22
So to us, we were making our mental calculation, "Do we get eight extra
19:25
gifts in add- in addition to this? And do we also get to take off
19:30
the days they take off?" Um, so that's what we understood, right?
19:33
And she just kind of, she kind of laughed and she said, "Well, I d- I don't
19:37
think you're gonna get extra gifts, but you should know that you are Jewish."
19:41
And so we just thought it was cool.
19:43
And from that moment onward We both, my brother and I would tell people, "We are
19:48
Jewish and Christian," or we'd say, "We're half Jewish, half Christian," because
19:51
we didn't really know how to explain it.
19:54
That Christmas, my brother and I bought her a menorah as a Christmas
19:58
gift, and we bought it from Pier 1.
20:00
I don't even know if Pier 1 still exists.
20:02
It was this, you know, kind of weird furniture store, and there
20:06
was one on Greenwich Avenue in the center of Greenwich.
20:09
We wanted to partake in this.
20:11
After that, our, our world in Judaism was really more bat mitzvahs and bar
20:17
mitzvahs we were invited to, which we also thought was cool, obviously, and,
20:21
uh, particularly the parties here.
20:23
And, you know, and so we would say like, "Well, do we get this, too?" But at
20:27
this point, we were already-- We were going to this non-denominational church,
20:32
and I don't think she knew how r- how to incorporate this, the Judaism into
20:39
our lives, and a lot of that was her own fears stemming from her childhood.
20:46
And so I've asked her now, I've asked her, "What precipitated you to tell us
20:50
that you were Jewish when you told us?"
20:52
And she always says, she says, "I really don't know.
20:54
I just think that whatever, whatever it was, I just couldn't keep it inside
20:57
anymore." But she still practiced in secret after that, and I know that
21:02
because, like I said, when I had ch- my-- I, I took my own personal interest
21:06
in it in Washington, D.C. when I was living there, and then I had children.
21:11
And when I had children, I asked her, "You know, I really
21:14
need you to help me on this.
21:16
I don't know how to host a Shabbat dinner.
21:18
I don't know how to host a Seder.
21:20
I don't know all-- what I'm supposed to say when I light the candles during
21:24
Hanukkah." And so she ca- I remember the f- I can never forget this, the
21:28
first night where she came with a menorah to light the candles, and I,
21:33
uh, had my two boys, and she starts reciting the prayer in Hebrew, and
21:37
it was like somebody I didn't know.
21:39
I was like, "Who's this w- I didn't know you even knew these, knew these prayers."
21:44
And by the way, it, this continues.
21:46
We were at a Rosh Hashanah, uh, party, dinner, uh, that we were invited to,
21:51
and they were singing a certain song, and she knew all the words to the song.
21:56
And I looked at her and I was like, "Ma, how do you know these songs?"
22:00
And she was like, "Ah, yes, I should teach this to your kids." I was like, "You
22:03
think?" 'Cause I don't know these songs.
22:05
And so I do feel-- I have, I am very interested myself in taking some kind
22:10
of course or courses, um, so I can be a better Jew, I guess, because I
22:14
do feel very passionately about it.
22:16
And so- Before we get to the, um, the politics of the day, I just
22:19
want to ask you about your family.
22:21
I presume that you have family in Lebanon, too?
22:24
Yes, I have family in Lebanon and around the world And around the wor-
22:27
in the ar- around the Arab world, too.
22:30
A little bit, yeah.
22:31
Um, well, now- nowadays it's really mostly Lebanon because I had family in Syria.
22:36
I had a lot of family in Syria.
22:38
My dad's dad's side of the family is from Aleppo, and, uh, Syrian Christian.
22:44
And they were living there up until really the Syria war.
22:48
And so now they live either in Europe or Lebanon or Canada.
22:53
And then, uh, the family in Lebanon is largely still there.
22:56
And again, some of them also moved to Europe, Canada, and the United States.
23:01
And I, I'm, I'm interested, h- uh, uh, I don't know if you can generalize
23:06
with respect to your family, but do you get some pushback from some family
23:10
members who are disappointed or, or even angered by your activities?
23:17
Yeah, that's putting it mildly.
23:20
I have, uh, the-- Of my family, all, all of them really but the Syrian
23:26
Christian side are very supportive of what I do and what I say.
23:29
Um, so that includes, that means the Lebanese Christian side and the Lebanese
23:34
Jewish side, uh, are extremely supportive of what I say and, uh, and, and I love
23:40
getting their messages when they tell me how proud of me they are or that, you
23:43
know, that they're th- they're, they thank me for being their voice or, or so on.
23:48
The Syrian Christian side, I, uh, many of them particularly, it was after
23:52
October 7th, um, they-- when I would post something or, or say something.
23:57
And it's, it's not just where, where they're seeing this are… Some of
24:02
it is just social media posts, but I am a commentator on air, so I'm
24:05
saying this on TV and then posting it.
24:07
I do videos for my media brand, Oh My World!, and I was doing it
24:11
there, and so on and so forth.
24:13
And this is obviously something I felt very strongly about,
24:16
very passionately about.
24:17
And, um, so they started with private messaging, but very angry, and very
24:24
angry and lecturing me and, and so on.
24:27
The more I went into this world, and then it w- it morphed into
24:31
Lebanon-Israel peace, right?
24:32
So the October 7th era and, and then into the Lebanon-Israel peace era.
24:36
And the Lebanon-Israel peace era they just were, you know, offended by, even
24:39
though they're Syrian, by the way.
24:41
One of them even wro- reached out to my dad and started yelling
24:44
at him, "How could you let your daughter be brainwashed this way?"
24:47
And so on and so forth, after she lectured me publicly, uh, on Facebook, I think.
24:52
And th- this is-- And they're Christians after they were persecuted in Syria.
24:57
The Christians are, are essentially persecuted in many areas of the Middle
25:01
East- Yes … and had to flee, and, and had to flee, and they're still They're
25:07
still upset, I mean, with you, of course, but, but they're upset with you
25:12
because they're upset with your opinions and, and your, your communication.
25:18
Um, w- why?
25:21
Why- Yeah … why?
25:22
Wh- where is that coming from?
25:23
Syrian Christians are different, um, a- as with any, by the way, I mean, a-
25:27
any community, uh, in the Middle East.
25:30
It's so complicated, such a mosaic.
25:32
I mean, y- the Druze are a good example.
25:34
The Christian, the Le- the Lebanese Druze are totally different than the
25:37
Syrian Druze in their views of Israel.
25:40
Um, and, and, and obviously the Israeli Druze, who are, who feel
25:43
very strongly about Israel and are a formidable ally for them.
25:47
Um, the Syrian Christians, the thing is, I don't… I'm, I'm empathetic to
25:52
it because they were raised with wrong history books and, and they have a
25:59
perspective that is literally wrong.
26:02
So they'll try to tell me all the time that Israel y- is, it was
26:06
made from a bunch of invaders.
26:07
And, and, uh, you know, and then when you tell them, when I highlight to
26:11
them, for example, that my mom is Jewish, um, they come up with some
26:15
kind of different thing for that.
26:16
They're like, "Well, yeah, but the Jews were always part of our society
26:20
and always welcome in our society."
26:22
I'm like, "Yeah, that's also factually inaccurate." Um, that is why when you
26:25
go to Israel, uh, a- if you ask the Israelis, each one will say, "I'm, oh,
26:30
I'm originally, my family originally came from Morocco or from Iraq or from
26:34
Yemen." Uh, this is very well established.
26:37
And, um, and so they were raised with just completely different distorted realities
26:43
and distorted and not factual narratives about the creation of the state of Israel,
26:50
uh, who Jews are in general, uh, and, uh, and how they are and their values.
26:55
And, and so sometimes, I don't wa- maybe empathetic was the wrong word.
26:59
I just, I, I always think to myself You know, I'm not gonna be
27:04
the one to be able to teach you.
27:06
And so y- clearly, and, and this information is readily available.
27:10
It's free.
27:10
Google is free.
27:12
But if you guys don't wanna open your mind to that, and you don't
27:15
want to l- to hear the facts, and then I, then I can't help you, right?
27:20
And, and it has caused a distance, right?
27:22
They unfollowed me.
27:23
All of them unfollowed me on social media, uh, and so on.
27:26
There are a handful of them, uh, who still will reach out, you know, at the
27:30
holidays or, or birthdays or whatever.
27:33
But, um, but yeah, now I'm, I'm happier they unfollowed me, to be honest with
27:37
you, because I really, I really hated receiving their lectures and remarks,
27:41
um, that were not just anti-Israel.
27:44
They were blatantly anti-Semitic.
27:45
And then when I would tell them, they would say, "No, that's not
27:48
anti-Semitic." They can't shake that world they grew up in.
27:54
And, uh, and so it's-- A- and I think, and they think similarly that I'm
27:59
brainwashed, and that I, you know, that I have some kind of distorted
28:03
reality and that they know best.
28:05
And, um, yeah.
28:07
Well, they're wrong, but- That's a pretty good description of
28:10
why there are wars, right?
28:11
Yeah.
28:12
That's the kind of the nub of the issue.
28:14
Um, I must say, uh, just parenthetically, uh, really am attracted to people
28:20
like you who are courageous, you know, that, who pay a price for their
28:27
beliefs and are so committed that, um, they're prepared to pay that price.
28:32
It's really very inspiring, Hagara.
28:35
Very, uh, moved by your story.
28:38
Thank you.
28:38
You know, I never looked at it that way, to be honest with you.
28:41
I really appreciate that.
28:42
I really just, you know, I don't know why I'm this way.
28:46
I do feel very passionately about, about these issues.
28:49
Um, and I don't question ever, you know, not speaking out or it d- I, I n- never.
28:56
Uh, so I appreciate that.
28:57
Thank you.
28:57
Thank you.
28:58
Tell us about the work that, uh, you're doing now.
29:00
First of all- Now, there are no real t- no real territorial issues
29:05
between Lebanon and, uh, Israel.
29:07
There could be peace, it seems fairly easily w- within the context of the
29:14
difficulties of the Middle East.
29:16
Um, and, uh, I guess from the American side and from the, uh, Israeli side,
29:22
um, i- if it weren't for Hezbollah, uh, that is essentially the, the
29:29
s- the central obstacle to…
29:32
Israelis always talked about, you know, taking a drive up to Beirut, uh, having
29:36
lunch there by the beach and coming back, and there were periods in the
29:40
past where the border between Lebanon and Israel were, was open actually,
29:43
and certainly before the, before 1948, before Israel was established.
29:48
Recently, there've been launched in Washington, uh, peace…
29:52
I don't know how to describe them either.
29:54
Are they peace discussions or non-belligerent discussion?
29:58
What's going on now?
30:00
What's going on with Hezbollah?
30:02
Are there real prospects for accommodation between Lebanon and Israel?
30:08
Yes.
30:08
Oh, I'm so excited to talk about this.
30:10
I eat, sleep, and breathe this now, so it's, you know, we're, we're,
30:14
um, let's, let's get into it.
30:15
So first, I need to give you the background when I mentioned
30:18
the geopolitical dynamics that shifted, that created this
30:22
window of opportunity for peace.
30:23
It started really in November 2024 when there was an escalation
30:27
between Hezbollah and Israel.
30:29
Hezbollah launched its own war against Israel on October 8th, and
30:33
then it escalated on November 24.
30:35
That's when you had the, the famous pager explosions, um, the anniversary
30:41
of which we just celebrated.
30:42
Uh, the assassination of, uh, of Hassan Nasrallah, the
30:46
Secretary General of Hezbollah.
30:47
Literally, the, that anniversary just happened.
30:50
That was September 27.
30:51
And by the way, these are, yes, anniversaries that
30:53
Lebanese are celebrating.
30:54
Um, so this was 2024, and Hezbollah was left very weak and degraded
31:00
and completely humiliated.
31:01
And it ended in a ceasefire, a November 2024 ceasefire, um, that stipulated
31:07
the disarmament of Hezbollah Then you had after that in December, what
31:12
no, none of us could have foreseen, was the fall of Bashar al-Assad,
31:17
who fled like a coward to Moscow.
31:19
And this was important because it meant that the two nooses around Lebanon's
31:22
neck were suddenly gone, Hezbollah and Assad, who were-- and they were allies.
31:28
And so come, fast-forward- A- Assad was gone, but Hezbollah
31:31
is not really gone, right?
31:34
No, but so s- but particularly in that… And no, and I'll get to that.
31:38
Particularly in that period, they were so degraded, so humiliated, so, by the
31:45
way, penetrated by the Israelis, that they also kind of felt, seemed, and
31:50
felt paralyzed, and they acted as such.
31:52
And, um, and they were.
31:54
Their military m- arsenals were ge- were genuinely degraded.
31:58
The, the number of commanders that had been killed, y- you know, it, they,
32:01
they suffered a significant blow.
32:03
But yes, still, still there, for sure.
32:06
Um, and they went up and down since then.
32:08
And, uh, and then, and then you get to January 2025, which is when I told
32:12
you that the small group of us kind of saw these shifting chess players.
32:17
And Lebanese President Aoun gets elected as president.
32:20
He makes a statement to the parliament where he says that all weapons will
32:24
be under the monopoly of the state, and Hezbollah needs to be disarmed.
32:28
And then fast-forward, so that I don't dwell onto this, for through the
32:31
year 2025 Disarmament efforts are the cabinet, the Lebanese cabinet decides
32:38
officially that Hezbollah needs to be disarmed, tasks the military with
32:42
that, and there are some efforts that, that are good and others really
32:47
that Hezbollah finds workarounds for.
32:49
And that is very common of any terrorist group, as I can tell you
32:51
having worked in counterterrorism.
32:53
It's like a game of Whac-A-Mole.
32:54
They, you know, the Syria land bridge was closed, the airport was cleaned
33:00
up, and they found other ways to rearm.
33:03
They found ways to get money from the Iranian regime again.
33:06
They, they used the ports of Beirut.
33:08
They started dealing in crypto, and so on and so forth.
33:11
This is what you have through 2025 essentially, uh, running us into
33:14
2026 when the Iran war starts.
33:17
By the end of 2025, the Lebanese prime minister had declared the south,
33:21
uh, disarmed by He- of Hezbollah.
33:24
And the Israelis were like, "Yeah, no.
33:26
That's-- No, no, it's not," you know?
33:28
But, but, but nice try.
33:30
And, uh, and this was proven when the Iran war started in February of this year.
33:35
Lebanon, on March 2nd, even though the Lebanese government said, and
33:39
when I say the government, I mean what we call the three presidents.
33:43
So the first is Lebanese President Aoun.
33:46
The president is always a Maronite Christian.
33:49
The prime minister, who currently is Nawaf Salam, he is a Sunni.
33:52
Always it's a Sunni position.
33:54
And the third is the speaker of the parliament, currently Nabih
33:57
Berri, and that is a Shia position.
34:00
This was a setup that was created after the civil war at the end to
34:05
create basically a confessional system where everybody felt represented.
34:10
So the three presidents, uh, when the Iran war started, told Hezbollah publicly
34:16
and privately, "You are not to get involved in this. Stay out of it. Don't
34:20
even think about firing anything, not so much as a rock." And sure enough, on
34:26
March 2nd, Hezbollah disobeyed, followed the orders of Tehran, obviously, because
34:31
when Tehran says jump, they say how high, and they launched a war with Israel.
34:37
And then obviously we had the, what, you know, the, the backlash from that.
34:42
And this shifted everything in Lebanon.
34:45
It-- This moment is what shook every Lebanese citizen.
34:51
Now they've, since then, they view Hezbollah, rightfully, finally, as only an
34:57
Iranian proxy and as a, as only a foreign agent of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
35:03
And that even with these three presidents and everyone in the
35:07
country saying, "Don't you dare get involved," they did it anyway.
35:11
So which by the way, we- we have been saying from here for decades,
35:15
which is that Hezbollah is occupying Lebanon, Hezbollah's using Lebanon
35:18
as a launchpad for its wars.
35:20
But the problem is that the Hezbollah has been very good and very sophisticated
35:25
in its propaganda, in convincing people that it's pursuing a resistance, that
35:30
Lebanon would be, uh, defenseless without Hezbollah, that i- Israel
35:33
would eat it up alive, and so on.
35:35
And this moment finally woke the Lebanese up.
35:39
And so suddenly, and finally, like I said, thankfully, um, Hezbollah was
35:43
viewed as the main problem and as isolated from the views and feelings
35:50
and sentiments of the Lebanese citizens and the Lebanese government.
35:54
And so right after that The Lebanese government declared Hezbollah's
35:58
operations, its military and security operations, as illegal.
36:02
They, um, and, and, and, and have been louder in their views against
36:07
Hezbollah and regarding disarmament.
36:10
So this is what led us to the peace talks, and they are peace talks, that
36:14
were launched in April of this year.
36:17
And, uh, since then we've had multiple rounds of peace talks.
36:21
From the beginning, it was viewed as two sides that wanted
36:25
peace, and this is unprecedented.
36:28
It is unlike any other Middle East peace process, which is why people like me
36:33
and others have such hope for it because you have the citizens themselves of both
36:38
sides, but particularly the Lebanese side who've been, you know, the annoying
36:42
ones, saying, "We want peace. We want a peace deal. We don't want to live in the
36:47
shadow of war and violence anymore, and we don't want Hezbollah using our land to
36:52
invite wars into this country anymore."
36:54
And that has been the atmosphere from the beginning, and they've been
36:58
quite public about that and in their commitment toward reaching a peace deal.
37:02
The trilateral framework agreement was signed on June 26th, nine
37:07
days after the shambolic Iran MOU.
37:10
And that's important because I need to explain to you how we even got to
37:14
that framework agreement because when the Iranians were negotiating the
37:18
MOU, they included language in it that talked about a ceasefire in Lebanon,
37:22
and they wanted Israel to withdraw.
37:25
Now, normally on its surface when people hear ceasefire, they would think,
37:29
"Well, what's the problem with that?
37:30
What's the problem with withdrawal?" But if you have a withdrawal without
37:33
any kind of terms stipulated, terms of a disarmament, terms of, uh,
37:39
control, uh, of the area by the Lebanese Armed Forces, for example,
37:43
then basically you're just handing the area over to Hezbollah and cementing
37:48
their power and influence forever.
37:50
And we certainly didn't want to do that.
37:51
That would've taken us backwards, backwards several years.
37:54
And so the Lebanese and Israelis are the ones that came up with this idea of
38:00
getting to some kind of agreement that they could sign and have a fancy ceremony
38:05
to prove to, to, to the White House that this peace process was worth continuing
38:11
and investing in, and to send a message to the Islamic Republic of Iran that they
38:16
are not to meddle in Lebanon's affairs.
38:19
And you had a series of statements at that time also from the Lebanese
38:22
president saying, "Nobody will negotiate on Lebanon's behalf other
38:26
than Lebanon," because Iran kept trying to, to meddle and, and stick
38:31
its dirty little hands in there.
38:32
And so once you had this framework agreement The process continued.
38:37
And since then, it's been a little bit, um, it's been s- progress
38:41
has been slower, if you will.
38:43
But talks are expected to go up and down.
38:45
Um, but it's been slower mainly because, to get really weedy with
38:48
you, the two parties had to rush to that agreement in order to wrangle
38:53
this away from the Iranian track and the, and the Iran's hands.
38:56
And as a result, not everything was figured out.
38:59
This is the biggest problem that they're trying to solve right now.
39:02
And so talks continue.
39:04
They've had now about seven or eight rounds, I believe, and the Lebanese
39:07
president has visited Washington.
39:09
Uh, he had a, a fairly successful meeting with President Trump.
39:12
And the next round of talks will be in Rome in October.
39:15
And now they're kind of sorting out the kinks of-- And, and until
39:19
elections, frankly, in Israel and i- in the United States, that progress is
39:23
going to be slow because no party is really moving strongly one way or the
39:28
other, or boldly one way or the other.
39:31
Uh, and so we kind of expected that.
39:33
But the parties remain committed.
39:34
The citizens could not be louder on both sides about the extent to which they want
39:39
peace, and they don't want Hezbollah, to, to your original question, to have
39:46
the ability or freedom, feel the freedom at least, to launch wars of this kind.
39:50
They very much identify Hezbollah as the problem and the parties
39:56
wanting the same goal, and it's just a question of how to get there.
40:00
My broadest question to you is these Hezbollah, and Hamas for that
40:06
matter, they are built, their whole raison d'être is resistance to
40:10
Israel, armed resistance to Israel.
40:14
And, uh, that's supported by, uh, Iran and funded by Iran.
40:20
So what are the-- Isn't it unrealistic to expect that, uh, Hezbollah will
40:27
be disarmed And isn't it unrealistic, for that matter, in Gaza to expect
40:34
that Hamas will voluntarily disarm?
40:37
W- w- help us, give us something to, uh, rely on, something good,
40:43
optimistic to, to suggest that, in fact, these two issues can be resolved.
40:49
I smile because, um, well, first 'cause it's the question I receive
40:52
from everybody, and because you're not totally wrong, uh, to, you know,
40:56
your expectation is not wrong at all.
40:58
Uh, it i- I don't think anybody expects Hezbollah to voluntarily disarm, and
41:02
there are a lot of moving pieces.
41:05
That means that Israel, on its part, continues to degrade Hezbollah
41:09
in Lebanon with, uh, first, in particular, the zone that they're in,
41:14
the yellow zone, um, and in targeted strikes where they see violations.
41:18
So this is on one hand.
41:19
You have the continued degradation of Hezbollah.
41:23
On the other, you have to have the Lebanese Armed Forces step up and control
41:28
the areas that at the moment they've been given, which are called two pilot zones.
41:33
So they've been given these pilot zones and told that these are the, the
41:38
concepts that you're gonna prove to everybody, that you can control these
41:41
areas and, uh, pursue disarmament where these areas are and, uh, and, and ensure
41:47
that Hezbollah doesn't take advantage.
41:49
Already you have problems in those areas, so I don't wanna sugarcoat it for you.
41:53
Already there have been numerous reports from people on the ground of
41:57
Hezbollah folks coming in, Hezbollah NGOs coming in, trying to take advantage,
42:02
and the Lebanese military not being able to meet its responsibility.
42:07
It's difficult.
42:08
The more Hezbollah's degraded, the more bold the Lebanese military can behave.
42:13
And what comes with that, as the Lebanese military keeps complaining about or the
42:18
president says, "Well, we don't have the funds and eq- and all the equipment
42:22
and the salaries to really take on the task that we're being asked for."
42:26
There is some truth to that, but the US is not gonna give them funds
42:30
unless they prove themselves, and they haven't proven themselves yet.
42:33
For example, they have, uh, commanders in the Lebanese Armed Forces whom
42:38
we know collaborated with Hezbollah, coordinated with them during the
42:42
disarmament of last year, and these guys have been named and not fired.
42:46
In fact, the Treasury Department sanctioned one of them, and
42:50
that guy is still working at the Lebanese Armed Forces.
42:52
So there are some positive steps, and, and it's not like the
42:56
Lebanese government doesn't know.
42:57
The US government details these steps to them at every chance they get.
43:01
So they, the US needs to see more bold steps so that the US can give the Lebanese
43:07
Armed Forces the equipment or funds they need to be the partner we need them to be.
43:12
I don't think anybody expects Hezbollah to be 100% disarmed It can no longer
43:20
pose a threat to Israel, launch a war from Lebanon, which poses a threat both
43:24
to Israel and the Lebanese citizens.
43:27
It cannot be this largely, have its own, uh, uh, function as such a
43:33
massive non-state and away from it.
43:35
And you're seeing that among the Lebanese Shia population, more and more of them.
43:39
I mean, it's actually, it's like a wave saying, "We don't want Hezbollah in this
43:43
area anymore. We-- You invite war, you destroy our houses, and you don't pay
43:47
for them. I can't return to my village because of you." And so the more that they
43:52
are degraded that way, they might end up becoming a small ragtag gang with weapons.
43:59
Don't get me wrong.
43:59
I'm not saying they couldn't cause harm in Lebanon.
44:02
Um, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a peace deal.
44:05
So I think that there's this mix here of, um, yes, they're gonna get
44:09
further disarmed and further weakened.
44:12
Will it be 100%?
44:14
Maybe not.
44:15
But that doesn't mean you can't have a peace deal, and it doesn't mean that
44:19
you can't reach a point where they no longer pose a threat to Israel's
44:23
security and, of course, uh, b- by that measure, Lebanon's citizens in return.
44:30
So that's a really good, uh, summary of what, uh, the parties are striving
44:35
to achieve If I were to ask you, where will we be three years from now?
44:42
Will there be a peace accord?
44:46
What would you say?
44:47
Are you optimistic about that?
44:49
I am optimistic about that.
44:51
I say yes.
44:52
I, I say yes, and I will, and, and I will tell you, if it doesn't happen in two
44:57
years, then I worry it's not happening.
44:59
And the reason I say that is not because I'm try- I'm not trying to be partisan.
45:02
I am not partisan myself, uh, whatsoever.
45:04
I'm very objective, and I am independent.
45:07
Um, but I do believe that this is a commitment that is made by the
45:12
Trump administration, and I, and I, uh, just judging by the direction
45:17
of American politics on both sides, frankly, I, I, I don't think this
45:21
will be prioritized whatsoever if they don't reach a peace deal then.
45:24
But the two sides are very acutely aware of the pressure they will face
45:31
and the risks and threats they face if they don't make that peace deal
45:35
within this two-year time period, and the threats they face are from the,
45:39
both the Islamic Republic of Iran.
45:42
If the Islamic Republic of Iran is still growing, if there's some
45:45
deal that gives them money, um, for example, then this will continue to
45:49
be a significant threat, and these terrorist groups, they are no longer,
45:54
uh, you know, the, the, the JV team.
45:57
The technology out there, the AI that's out there, the creativity they find, that
46:02
they, that they figure out, uh, means that they can, they increasingly pose threats.
46:06
And that is, if there's no, if there's a lesson from October 7, then that
46:10
is one of them, that we can't anymore look at these groups as ragtag idiots.
46:15
Um, they find a way, and a peace deal undermines that, particularly
46:19
between Lebanon and Israel.
46:20
It undermines Hezbollah's narrative w- all, altogether, and
46:22
its, and therefore its support.
46:24
You have that part, the pr- the pressure they feel from the Islamic
46:26
Republic of Iran, but there's also the pressure they feel from the
46:29
direction of American politics, and both sides are very aware of this.
46:33
They talk about it all the time.
46:35
They can see the way the wind is blowing, uh, on the-- and for different reasons.
46:40
On the Israeli side, they see that, you know, what will the
46:44
U.S. relationship be with Israel?
46:46
Regardless of whether it's Republican or Democrat, it looks like there's
46:49
going to be some kind of change.
46:51
Even if that change is small, that's not how terrorist groups hear it.
46:55
When they see daylight, they think it's massive.
46:58
Regardless of who comes that, uh, terrorist groups might feel
47:02
emboldened, the Islamic Republic of Iran might feel bol- emboldened.
47:06
And so th- and, and Israel might feel, well, what support are we
47:09
going to get from the United States?
47:10
Can we count on all of it right now?
47:12
Uh, right now, the Israelis are hoping to be completely militarily independent by
47:16
2030, so there's still some time there.
47:18
And on the Lebanese side, it's a different kind of fear.
47:21
It's a fear of if it's isolationism, then a fear that, uh, they're just not gonna
47:27
care about this region, and they're gonna wonder why they even should be involved.
47:31
Why is that in the America's interest?
47:33
And then if it's the left side, uh, and a more far left, uh, sentiment at the
47:39
moment, that far left sentiment is they sometimes come off pro-Iranian regime
47:45
and pro-adversary, American adversaries.
47:47
Now, I know I'm giving you the two extremes here, and there's
47:49
always a possibility that somebody rational comes in the middle.
47:52
Um, but based on that, they feel that pressure.
47:55
So both sides feel that they are tied to each other, that their success and their
48:00
future and their stability and future prosperity is actually, in such a funny
48:06
turn of events, tied to one another.
48:08
And you see that because peace talks are difficult.
48:12
I always say when, when the press starts to say that like, "Oh, nothing came of
48:16
this Rome meeting," you know, some of them don't have deliverables or announcements.
48:20
And I always tell them, I'm like, "Because this is hard work. If it
48:23
was easy, it would've been done by now." It's really difficult.
48:26
But what keeps them in it, albeit the ups and downs, is the fact that they,
48:31
they feel this acutely, that they have no choice but to come to an agreement,
48:36
or they could really face some massive threats and risks in the future
48:42
Hagar, this has been, uh, fascinating.
48:44
I'm, uh, going to maybe, uh, we'll be in touch two years from now.
48:48
Yes.
48:48
We'll see how far we come, and God willing, if there's a peace
48:52
accord, we'll, we'll come on and we'll celebrate together.
48:56
Oh, it is w- it was my pleasure.
48:58
You have a, a f- you and your, your, um, audience who feel passionately about
49:03
this and your team have an invitation to what we call, um, what we the peace
49:08
crew, uh, plan, which is when we get peace, we will, uh, fly to Ben Gurion
49:15
Airport and drive to Beirut, and I joke that it will be a caravan of trucks
49:20
and buses, uh, crossing the border.
49:22
And so you all are invited along with us.
49:25
Thank you for that.
49:26
Count me in.
49:27
I'll def- and I'll drop everything for, to see the day of peace between Israel
49:32
and Lebanon, and, and I'll go with you if you promise that, uh, you take me
49:37
to the best hummus joint in Beirut.
49:39
Somebody was s- joking with me that they're gonna do a marathon.
49:42
Uh, they're, they wanna set up a marathon from Tel Aviv to Beirut, which
49:46
I don't think that would be a marathon.
49:47
I mean, it is close, but not that close.
49:49
Um, and I told him, I was like, "I'm not training for this.
49:52
Uh, that's not, no, I'm not doing that.
49:53
I'm gonna be in the car handing out water," I said, "and then we should
49:57
make stops along the way for the best hummus, uh, as, as we go along."
50:01
So… I'm in for that, for sure.
50:04
Yes.
50:05
You know, you know, people in Israel especially have been dreaming about
50:10
visiting the hummus joints in Lebanon because they're, they're supposed
50:13
to be the best in the Middle East.
50:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they are.
50:16
They are.
50:17
And by the way, Lebanese Christians in particular dream of visiting Jerusalem,
50:20
and they talk about it all the time.
50:22
And there are criminalization laws in Lebanon that prohibit the
50:25
Lebanese from speaking to Israelis.
50:27
Now, this law is broken every single day.
50:29
There are reporters interviewing Israelis.
50:31
There are people calling for peace.
50:32
Again, and yet another reason I have a lot of optimism and hope, but, uh,
50:36
and I will be publishing an op-ed soon arguing for the United States to pressure
50:41
Lebanon n- more to at least suspend these laws while negotiations are happening.
50:46
And let me tell you something, the day it's suspended, it will be a
50:50
flood of tourists who want to visit.
50:53
Um, and then a flood of people who are curious, who just want
50:56
the people-to-people exchange.
50:57
They're so hungry for it.
50:59
Uh, it is remarkable, and yet another reason I have such optimism.
51:02
In the meantime, uh, there's a phrase from the Bible, "May you go from
51:07
strength to strength, and may you be strengthened and strengthen others."
51:10
Oh, I love that.
51:12
So, uh, keep on doing what you're doing and keep on giving us all
51:15
this, uh, not only knowledge, but supplying us with inspiration and hope.
51:20
We especially need it at this time.
51:23
Hagar Chemali is such a fascinating human being.
51:26
She's the kind of person who reminds you that we can do better, be
51:30
better, and aspire to better times.
51:34
What an inspiration My sincerest prayer is that her hope that Israel
51:38
and Lebanon can establish peace within the next two years materializes.
51:43
And on that day of the signing of the accords, the morning stars
51:47
will sing together and the children of God will shout with joy.
51:53
After interviewing Hagar, my first reaction was to say to
51:56
myself again for the umpteenth time, wars are just so stupid.
52:01
And this war between Israel and Lebanon is especially stupid.
52:06
There are essentially no territorial disputes between the two countries.
52:10
Most Israelis and most Lebanese would agree tomorrow on a peace deal.
52:15
Within months of finalizing peace accords, many thousands of tourists would flow
52:20
in both directions, northwards from Israel and southwards from Lebanon.
52:25
Both countries would benefit economically.
52:29
So if wars are so stupid, why are there so many wars in the world?
52:34
And if peace between Israel and Lebanon is in both countries' overwhelming
52:38
best interests, why are Lebanon and Israel still in a state of war?
52:44
We can be honest with ourselves.
52:46
Diplomats and politicians often need to couch their words, say things that are
52:50
purposely evasive, or hide the truth.
52:53
But we don't.
52:55
Every honest and decent person knows the truth.
52:58
If Lebanon, or more accurately, Iran-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon
53:03
laid down its weapons and abandons its ambition to destroy Israel,
53:08
there would be peace within weeks.
53:10
If Israel laid down its weapons while Hezbollah prosecutes its
53:14
ambition to destroy Israel, Israelis would be massacred.
53:18
This is the simple and basic truth.
53:22
All the rest is commentary.
53:25
Until next time, this is In These Times.