Latest / To The Moon With The Luna's Podcast / The Truth About Self-Custody with Fin Creighton

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The Truth About Self-Custody with Fin Creighton · To The Moon With The Luna's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Again, these people blurt out how much Bitcoin they have when they shouldn't, but they they think it's not much.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time it is a lot to start with, but even if it's not, what I say to people is put a 10x, put a hundred X on the value of that Bitcoin and pretend that was today.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are you comfortable with your setup today if your Bitcoin was worth 10x or a hundred X more?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: If the answer's no, then you want to set it up today because Bitcoin will 10x and it will 100x.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also funny enough the thing that stops people deploying more capital into Bitcoin because they're not comfortable with their setup.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore they're not comfortable deploying more capital.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it works both ways.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: But if Bitcoin was 10x or 100x more valuable than it is today, would you be comfortable?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, then you need to get it set uh sorted now.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: This episode is brought to you by Microseed.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Microseed engraves your entire Bitcoin seed phrase onto fireproof, waterproof, steel, or titanium.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Small enough to fit in your palm, strong enough to last a lifetime.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's durable, easy to hide, and built for secure storage.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: If your seed phrase is still on paper, it's time to upgrade and take self-custody to the next level.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because not your keys, not your coins.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Go to microseed.io and use code LUNALUNA for a discount.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or check the link in the description below.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh welcome back everybody to the Moon with the Lunas podcast.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Bitcoin price today is 78,400.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh today we have Finn Crichton, the founder of Bitcoin Success School, where he helps people securely take control of their Bitcoin.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: After realizing most newcomers lack guidance around self-custody and security, he focuses on teaching the fundamentals needed to protect and truly own their assets.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is perfect uh having you on here, Finn.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is something that we've been looking to um, you know, a topic we've been needing to cover in our uh in our podcast.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that you're the perfect guy for this.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm super excited for this episode.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh if you don't mind sharing a little bit about where you're from and who you are for our listeners.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for having me on, guys.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a long time coming, so I appreciate the the reschedules.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: But a bit about me, I'm I'm from the UK, uh been in Australia since July last year, and my journey into Bitcoin, I guess I uh wanted to play professional rugby my whole life growing up, and then blew my knee out, and that was kind of the final wake-up call to saying you're not gonna do this anymore.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so on the path to then working out what life would look like without rugby, I stumbled across Bitcoin.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um super grateful.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I took a course called Take the Cry Out of Crypto, thinking it was about trading and getting rich quick, and actually it was about differentiating between crypto and Bitcoin, and that you self-custody of Bitcoin, and this is how you don't get hacked or scammed.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's funny because I spoke to someone last week who took the exact same course at the exact same time, and he ended up buying with all of his pension a shit coin um that's now worth a thousand dollars or something like that, and I took the same course as it's Bitcoin only, and you take self-custody of it.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting how that's all happened.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: But that's uh yeah, that like we're saying off strict off-screen, that kind of led me to where we are today.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I started the Bitcoin podcast more so just educational, and then people started coming to me and asking about self-custody and stuff like that.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought I'd launch a service helping people go from either on an exchange or with a pretty ropey self-custody setup to having a bulletproof one and walking them through that process step by step.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, loving the journey so far, man, been super rewarding.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's awesome.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and it's amazing when you have those encounters, I'm sure, when you're like, Man, we did the same exact thing, and you're navigating a whole other situation than I am right now, you know?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's why you're probably so successful now, is because you listened and you want other people to succeed, which is such a um, I feel like the whole ex community, the whole Bitcoin community, I feel like has been is that way.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone wants to everyone to succeed, and you know, it's just it's just really cool.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's amazing start to your story for sure.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I mean, just just to add to that a bit, um, it's funny because the only reason I found out is because I've started training with this guy in person because I didn't realise he lives right near me in Australia, and then we talked, we found out we did the same course at the same time and stuff.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I've recently had a lot of people come into my world that understand Bitcoin enough to know that they need to self-custody it, but they're still dabbling in the shit coins and these crypto projects and decentralized crypto projects or whatever that just scream scam.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to tread carefully because the the a couple of people that are feeding me leads to help with self-custody are also part of these projects, so I can't just straight up be like the person's scamming you, which I don't think they are, I think they're just still not orange-pilled enough, e via.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: But the last two weeks, because it's been going on for about two months, the last two weeks it's been a lot more direct of like, look, Bitcoin is one thing, crypto is another.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not saying all crypto has zero value, but it is speculation, it's an investment, whereas Bitcoin's the money, and just making very clear what Bitcoin is and that they're completely different things.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because fundamentally, like you said, I don't want people to get scammed and lose out.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm speaking to single mums, people that are scared getting into the Bitcoin world, and it's like you won't be you'll be glad that you've done this in 10 years if you dodge all of this shit to the other side.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's good.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we're gonna keep it real elementary too, because for those people, those single moms, you know, or those dads that are getting in by themselves, or you know, just somebody who's like, Man, I really want to get into this, uh, but I have nowhere to go.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: So by keeping it super elementary, like we have exchanges where you can buy Bitcoin.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's a ton of exchanges.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: We have ETFs where you can buy Bitcoin.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so just to kind of break it down, so do most people own their Bitcoin um when they buy it from these from these platforms?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, uh to answer that shortly, no, definitely not.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um the ETF is a definite no-no because you don't even buy Bitcoin, you just buy a wrapper that is buying the Bitcoin for you.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh my good friend Sean from Good A Bitcoin sums this up well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, do what Sailor and the ETFs are doing, which is buying Bitcoin, don't buy their products.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the other thing, like you said, exchanges uh exchanges have a place.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Exchanges allow you to buy Bitcoin the greatest money and get rid of the worst money in your dollars, but you don't own it if it just sits on that exchange, so get it into self-cofficing and then you do own Bitcoin.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: But no, neither of those are owning Bitcoin at all, and that's a trap.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you're saying so.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm understanding correctly, so most people are just kind of relying on other people to control their Bitcoin.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what it sounds like?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and and fair enough, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new to the space, you're probably terrified, just like if I gave you guys a car to drive your kids in and you'd never driven a car before, you'd be like, What the hell?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is scary.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna kill someone here.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um because you've never done it, but once you've done it and you start doing the reps and you learn, it's it's as simple as driving a car becomes, or using a phone, or using mobile banking.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people are scared.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh, I've said that I've been quite vocal about this the last few months.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the next psyop that's coming is you're already seeing the narrative shift from banks where banks have for years been saying Bitcoin's risky, Bitcoin's a scam, avoid Bitcoin.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that has shifted to everyone needs Bitcoin now from the banks.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Bank uh Bitcoin's amazing, everyone needs Bitcoin, but the narrative will be but we'll self we'll custody it for you because self-custody is the risk.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because they've realized that they can't beat Bitcoin, Bitcoin is the best money that everyone's gonna come to that conclusion, but people are gonna be scared.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we use that fear?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll custody it for you, so you don't actually get the benefit of what Bitcoin is, and we can take control.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that's the psyop that's coming.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so just to add on that too, um, so what does say again someone's a beginner, right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And they just want to get their feet wet and buy some Bitcoin.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, here's a hundred bucks, I'm gonna buy some Bitcoin on Coinbase, right?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that that this is just my journey, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: So for um for a while, uh I'd probably say like maybe I'd probably say three to six months.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I actually had it on the exchange because I was doing my process of learning self-custody, these different wallets, there's hot wallets, you know, cold cold uh wallets.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: So what I'm saying is like, do you think it it's a it's safe to have them on for a little bit while you're studying and you're still buying, or is it something like, hey, maybe you should study self-custody first before you even buy Bitcoin?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'd I'd say to everyone, buy buy some Bitcoin first because when you've got skin in the game and you've actually got you've bought some Bitcoin, then you're gonna pay more interest, you're gonna learn.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: If if you see it drop 40%, you're gonna be like, why is this thing dropping 40%?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you see it rip 100%, you're gonna be like, Why is this thing ripping 100%?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't do that if you're just or you can, but you're less likely to do the work if you've not got skin in the game.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I say to people is you want to treat in terms of value of your Bitcoin, you want to almost treat it like cash in a wallet.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you for your exchange or for a hot wallet, I always say you never want to have more Bitcoin on an exchange or in your hot wallet than you'd be comfortable walking the street with cash in a physical wallet that would sting a bit to lose or get stolen, but it's not gonna change your life or be detrimental.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say stack uh just just be buying Bitcoin on an exchange or wherever you're gonna buy it until it hits that amount that if it's a past that it would like be pretty painful to lose.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then look into um a hot wallet, set up with a non-custodial non-KYC hot wallet, um, get used to the mechanics of a seed phrase.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, AquaWallet is an amazing um non-custodial hot wallet, and then send some Bitcoin over there, then send the rest over there, then get stacking again, and then once you've hit that where you've now got a hot wallet of you wouldn't want to lose because it's gonna go over your threshold of comfort, and then your exchanges at that point as well.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably where you then have enough Bitcoin to to justify learning whether that's with time or with money, because you can either pay to reduce the time or you can s invest your time to learn self-custody, either way, but that's probably where you want to start learning what proper self-custody is um to start protecting your Bitcoin.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, and uh, thanks for bringing that down for us.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then also, I know you mentioned hot wallet and there's cold hard wallets.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: What's the difference between both these wallets?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, a hot wallet is uh well, I guess to start with, do you want me to talk about uh seed phrases or shall we assume that everyone knows what a seed phrase is?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a huge part in this whole process, anyways.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, please.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Cool, cool, cool.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll never um advocate for someone to use a hot wallet that doesn't have a seed phrase backing it up, um, regardless of whether it's um who it's from, because at that point you may as well just leave it on an exchange because you can't back it up.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: If something happens to your phone, then then there goes your Bitcoin.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So a seed phrase is 12 or 24 words that is your physical backup.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if anything ever happens to that wallet, you've got a physical backup written down, hopefully, not just written down on paper but on metal that can withstand a fire, for example.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the difference between a hot wallet and a cold wallet is that though that seed phrase, so those 12 or 24 words make up what is called your private key.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I always say to people to get into your house, you need a key, physical key.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: This to get access to your Bitcoin, you need a seed phrase, a private key.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the difference between a hot wallet and a cold wallet is that a hot wallet, that seed phrase or that private key is connected to a device that is connected to the internet.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: That opens you up to getting scammed, getting hacked by clicking on a phishing link as an example, which is why it's a great step one for a smaller amount of Bitcoin or perhaps an amount where you're gonna spend in a coffee shop or a circular economy.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but a cold wallet, if done correctly, um, because there's plenty of cold wallets that aren't actually cold wallets, um, but if you're doing your self-custody correctly for a cold wallet, then your seed phrase or your private key is generated offline and it never touches a device that's connected to the internet.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's that's where the term air gapped comes from, and your keys are generated offline.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: So um again, it's kind of the the top end of your self-custody journey.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you want to get to when you're stacking uh for the long term, but to start with a hot wallet will do, you just want to make sure you've got a seed phrase so that if anything ever happened to your phone, for example, you can get access to the Bitcoin that was on there.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had never heard of a hot wallet before.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: We had always talked about the cold wallet, and so hearing the differences um is really helpful because um, like you said, it could be really helpful for someone who's just starting.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: It probably feels a little bit more familiar if they're just starting.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I like that what you said is just a nice tip for people who are really wanting to you know build a Bitcoin to really think about your cold wallet for sure and your seed phrase and all of that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, what's like the single biggest mistake that could cause someone to lose all their Bitcoin?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll give you two answers for that.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the the biggest risk is leaving on an exchange and trusting an exchange that they're not gonna go bust.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because if that's how you're gonna treat your Bitcoin, um unfortunately when it's too late, it's too late.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you can say they're not gonna go bust, but the moment that something goes wrong with that exchange, it's too late, you can't do anything.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's risk number one is thinking that their exchange won't go bust, despite there being so much evidence of so many different companies and exchanges going bust in the past.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for those that are actually taking self-custody of their Bitcoin, the biggest risk from conversations that I've had, and in my opinion, is people actually making their self-custody setup too complex.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So having a treasure map and it's like X marks the spot, you have to go here, then you have to go here, then you have to go here, then you have to go here.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's great if everyone could tap into your brain, but unfortunately they can't.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So for the the everyday person, I always say you want to be as secure as possible whilst being as simple as possible, because you are more likely to lose your Bitcoin because of user error yourself than someone hacking your Bitcoin or or working out your setup.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I guess if you've not taken self-custody, it's it's having too much trust on exchanges, and if you are, then it's making it too complex because you think that you're a cybersecurity expert when actually that just increases the chance of user error.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's really good.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so for for us as far as wallets, um, I know I've heard this debate over like X a few times.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: How many wallets do you think somebody should have their Bitcoin on?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or should it just be one like with multi-sig?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or and we can kind of dive into multi-sig in a little bit, but uh we'll just keep it based right now.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: So for how many wallets should someone have?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know people talk about hey, like, I don't want to have my eggs all in one basket.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: So is this uh what are your thoughts on this?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it really depends on your stack, um, which is a really hard one because I always say to clients before I'm working with them and during the process, it's like I do not want to or need to know how much Bitcoin you've had you have.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, people sometimes before I give them that warning, blur blurt out how much they've got, and the funny thing is they often think that that's not much, and I'm like, okay, like they're like, I've only I've only got uh 10 bitcoin, I don't really need to uh self-custody, and I'm like, okay, I think you need to work out what Bitcoin is before you um carry on.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of how many wallets, yeah, it's it's it's super hard um to to give any advice here, but you're you're right, like you want to remove single points of failure.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got everything in one wallet, then that means if something happens to that setup, then goodbye.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um now a lot of my clients are in Australia, and in Australia you can convert your pension.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I you guys in America, what's your pension called?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think they call it it's not even like a pension, but uh they call it like a 401k.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's it, 401k.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: So in Australia, you can flip your 401k effectively into a self-managed one, which means you can choose what you buy, and you can't you can actually buy real Bitcoin, not even an ETF.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you can buy that Bitcoin and you can self-custody it, which I don't think's got many days left, because they're probably gonna work out sooner or later that that's a lot of power to the individual.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But as an example, they can self-custody that bitcoin, but then that can't commingle with their personal Bitcoin, so that in itself that's got to be in a wallet, and that gets audited every single year by the tax officers.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you've also then got your personal to deal with, and then it depends how you want to split that up.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, the the main thing for me that I try and get across to people is that simplicity is key.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you want it obviously to be as secure as possible, but you don't want it to be so complex and have so many different wallets that again, if something happens to you, then the person that's going to be left with your Bitcoin can't actually get access to it because they've got a million different steps to get to these a million different wallets.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and to add to that, it's it's an ever-going um adapting thing, really, because let's say you've got an amount of Bitcoin that currently you're happy having in one wallet, but suddenly Bitcoin 10x is, and then perhaps you want to split that across two or three wallets instead.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it really is an evergoing um a question, but I think fundamentally it always comes back to what the person's comfortable with and then simplicity over anything.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But my job's not necessarily to um advise.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's definitely not to advise on how many wallets or how much quantity of Bitcoin should be split over their wallets, it's just to actually teach them the skills to create in the best practice possible so that they can then decide what in their life how they want to split things up.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's really good because like you can't keep holding their hand, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: They soon have to like walk on their own and then at the same time, like you have if you're gonna be like self-sovereign, like you have to learn the skills and then go and run.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: We can't just keep we can't just keep like, hey, is everything okay over there?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have your you know you have to figure it out?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um no, that's really good.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: So just a backputal real quick, uh Finn.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So you guys have like let's we'll just say like your guys' pension or four one K or whatever you guys have there.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if you guys can convert it over to Bitcoin, um actual Bitcoin and then self custody it you said?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, so in Australia you can so you've got What would typically be a four oh one K is called a superannuation in Australia.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where a percentage of your income is put aside for retirement and they invest it in their Australian super fund, which does eight to ten percent a year, absolute garbage.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can go through a process that turns the uh super fund into a self-managed super fund.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what that means is you can get access to the capital and invest it in whatever you want, whether that's real estate, gold, silver, bitcoin, or whatever.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then you can still I think it's probably got less than 12 months till they change the rules here, but you can still self-custody your Bitcoin.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to prove every 12 months that that amount of Bitcoin has remained the same every year, otherwise you have to pay a fine.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you can still take self-custody.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um you can a way of proving is either a public address, but you you don't even have to give a public address of your wallet.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can literally just take a screenshot most instances and and prove I've got this again.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um none of this is financial or tax advice, obviously, but um yeah, that's how it goes.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious, so so they call it self, like you could take you can uh manage it and like put it in self-custody, right?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Your own.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: So how long do you have to keep showing proof of this of these reserves or like of your Bitcoins?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's a year.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's an audit every 12 months with your your um SMSF accounting uh person.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you get audited every 12 months where you just have to prove that your balance has basically either stayed the same or matches the contributions that you've been making throughout the last year.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and when those numbers add up, then it just keeps going.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it you just have to do it once every 12 months until you retire.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you're just basically they're just saying hey, you could just kind of hope you can hold possession of it in your instead of us, but you just have to show us proof.
• 24:12
  unknown: Wow.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, however, I don't think there's long left because once they uh realise, I I don't think many uh many governments really understand Bitcoin yet.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So once Australia realizes the power of actually self-custying your Bitcoin and that they can't just come in and confiscate it or they can't just come in and tax it on unrealised capital gains.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think when they realise that self-custody stops that, they'll still allow people to buy Bitcoin, they just won't allow them to self-custody it.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because as long as they or the banks custody it, they can take capital gains tax or unrealised capital gains tax, they can confiscate it if they want.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you couldn't self-custody it, there's no value to it.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's interesting.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which is wild because like that's why you know with ETF, everyone's like, oh well, like there's like this surplus, we bought all this, you know, ET all this Bitcoin ETF, but it's like you don't have anything, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so the same thing too with like it's the same thing with stocks, it's just money on a screen, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Until you actually take it out.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and or you know, and then with Bitcoin you can actually put it away.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I have a question.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how long ago were you introduced into to Bitcoin?
• 25:35
  unknown: Okay.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so not too long.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like bloody ten years, but uh you literally breathe, eat, sleep Bitcoin right now, and it's like I'm sure it probably feels way longer.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I'm always curious about that because um I I feel like oftentimes when it obviously came from a need of you wanting to learn more about it, and then when you were able to figure out self-custody, it's you know, it's super helpful to be able to pass on to people.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I'm curious too.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you were like starting over today, you had just started, you know, got onto your Bitcoin journey.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you would have done differently?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like about setting up your Bitcoin.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look, I'm I'm super, super grateful, and I often say I'm lucky, and people tell me I wasn't lucky.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: I put in the work to get to where I was, but I'm super grateful that my onboarding was that course because I took from it that you self-custody or Bitcoin from the off and that Bitcoin and crypto are two very different things.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I've not had any uh bad luck or any losses or anything like that in terms of getting hacked or scammed or whatever.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm really grateful for that.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now I set the first hot uh cold wallet hardware device that I use was a ledger.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm now pretty vocal around not using a ledger, not using a treasure, just because again, the chance of losing your Bitcoin with them is is low, like it's nothing to really get nervous about straight away, but it's not zero because they have had data leaks of their customers' data before.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um ledger, for one, for your security, they've got a backdoor, so if you ever forgot your seed phrase, they can help you recover it.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: But just by the fact that they can do that means if there's a bad actor, then someone can get into everyone's seed phrases and just drain them.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um again, it's I wouldn't say that it's um anything I'd have done differently because it allowed me to then learn better practices and and luckily I didn't get burnt along the way.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think the only thing I'd have done differently is not take for granted that that was everyone's journey into Bitcoin because for so long I could have helped more people, but I just assumed that everyone um did it, and I won't name names, um you might be able to read between the lines here, but someone this week I just saw got uh a role at strategy.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was speaking to him uh to them at Mina, Bitcoin Mina, and they were like, So what do you do?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Blah blah blah, we're getting to know each other, and I told them about the self-custody.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, Oh, I need to work with you because I'm terrified of seed phrases, and I'm like, What the hell?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you've just been offered a role with strategy.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just assumed that everyone self-custoded their Bitcoin until I started actually with the podcast having more conversations with people because for so long I was a closet bitcoiner, and luckily my personality allowed me to keep learning, keep going down the rabbit holes, despite people telling me that I was crazy and not having anyone really to connect with.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: But um that was probably my uh I guess I there's no way for me to have known how to do it, but that would have been my biggest wish is that I'd have known earlier that that wasn't everyone's journey into Bitcoin.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it goes back to Finn, is that you know everyone's comfortable, like we're so used to like, oh, just having our money in a bank, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: So then it's like, oh, let me just buy my Bitcoin and I'll just keep it there.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like this will just be where I can like log in on my app, like like people log in on their banking app.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, let me log into my my app and I'll oh check on my Bitcoin.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, no, you have to take it that next that next level, that next layer of security.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um speaking with um so I know you mentioned data leaks with Ledger and they have backdoors.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: What um what kind of uh cracks does would you say Trezor has that you've noticed?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so Trezor um they actually replied to me uh back off a post the other m the other week, but they had a data leak as well.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so look, there's multiple hardware devices that uh you can really pick apart.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um why say to people that ask what should I use or they say I've got a treasure or or a ledger, whatever, do I need to change it?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't need to get nervous, but we know where Bitcoin is going over the long run.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So why not why settle for anything that isn't the best in the business just for the sake of an extra two hundred dollars?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so anyone that's got not got a hundred percent history of data for their customers and their previous customers, then that's a no-no.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um for me it's Bitcoin only hardware, um, it's um air gaps, so it can be air gapped and it's open source software.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: If your device ticks those three off, then happy days, you're in the clear.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, along with not having a hundred percent uh with the customer data.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I just say to everyone, like, we know where Bitcoin's going, it's just not worth messing up.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So just take that extra step and just set it up correctly without any like mitigate all of that risk that someone could find out that you've got your Bitcoin because your data gets leaked or whatever.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, so this is great.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: I have a couple questions for you, fam.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: So uh let's just say somebody's like, hey, I um I'm gonna buy a thousand dollars on Coinbase, and then they they transfer it over to a cold hard wallet, right?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: They that the address that they send over, that thousand dollars, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then you buy another thousand dollars the next month, and so now you generate a new address, correct?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: You generate that new address and you send it over to uh your hardware wallet.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: We'll just say we'll just keep it ledger, we'll just keep it simple.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: So now in two months, you have two thousand dollars, you have two addresses, both over, that you send over to Ledger.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: So now you're growing and you're learning, and you're like, hey, I only want a Bitcoin only wallet.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um fast forward, you did 12 months of Coinbase, so 12 addresses over to your ledger.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Someone's like, Man, I need to get this off my ledger and I need to put it in my cold car queue.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do they go about it?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do they just do 12 again?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: What walk us through this process?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so sending to a new address each time would still be going to the same wallet, so that wallet would be made up of 12 different UTXOs.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, without getting too technical, um the wallet amount would just hold all of the 12 UTXOs to total that would be 12,000 if Bitcoin's price hadn't changed.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: If we're measuring in dollars here, um you could send as much or as little of that all to a new address in one go.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if you've got your ledger here, my my uh camera's uh doesn't like my hands coming up, but let's say your ledger's here and you've just set up a cold card wallet here and you want to transfer everything from your ledger.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, I'd recommend you you generate your address from your cold card.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um you do a test transaction, so five to twenty dollars just to make sure that it's the right one, and then you can send the rest to everything across.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you obviously don't want to send your 12 months of work and savings in one go to a brand new wallet that you aren't a hundred percent sure.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that actually will then consolidate 12 UTXOs into two because of the test transaction.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can then further consolidate them if you want to, or distribute them within this new wallet.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I hope that makes sense.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to kind of overcomplicate on a podcast to people that perhaps are new and don't even know what cold storage is.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:07
  unknown: No, uh, that was just for me.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: That was for me.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, because I always wonder, like, well, you know, like, and to break it down even uh one less degree, and then we'll kind of pivot out of this.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: So again, we don't want to confuse people.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then if somebody does like their limits not a thousand, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: They do five hundred every time, and they just make they have so many addresses now, right?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: All the way up to twelve thousand dollars, like so.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, now they have like to keep it easy, they have twelve thousand dollars converted all over into their ledger, and so if they want to transfer it over to a cold car queue, they can just do the whole thing in one transaction.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: But again, you would want to do a test before.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hunt hundred percent, yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and let's say that someone's been doing that, but they set up a cold card from the off, you can then generate a new address on your cold card and then do a send from the cold card and send all of those different UTXOs in one transaction to consolidate them into one UTXO in the same cold card wallet.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you're effectively uh you're effectively like swapping 12,000 note with yourself, um, effectively.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, if you're if you're saying you've got everything on a ledger and you want to upgrade to a cold card or a better setup, then you I'd definitely do a test transaction if it's a big amount and then send to the that same address.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I guess just to add to this, because um using the correct hardware is just one piece.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now I don't want to scare people off because self-custody is really simple, it's just new, so you just need to learn the steps.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not backing up your self-custody setup, then who cares if you use a ledger or a cold card?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because if your house burns down and your hardware device is destroyed, along with a maybe a paper seed phrase backup, if you've been diligent, then you've still lost everything.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, you want to get your best in-class Bitcoin-only air gapped open source hardware, but you also need multiple backups and to reduce um single points of failure for that.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I personally recommend micro seed for metal backups because you can create heaps and it doesn't cost a hundred dollars every time you need a big square block that you can't hide anywhere very easily.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then beyond that, again, we don't want to don't need to get too technical, but perhaps setting up a passphrase for that extra layer of security so that if someone does find your seed phrase for whatever reason, if we're thinking worst-case scenarios, they still don't get access to your Bitcoin.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, what I'm if I'm understanding correctly, you're basically saying there are these different uh methods uh to store your seed phrase because that's where it actually really starts.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter if you have a uh whatever hard great hardware wallet you have, cold storage, um you need to protect your uh seed phrase.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you're saying that the best seed phrase, in your opinion, would be micro seed.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um my connection we just got delivered today are micro seed.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, micro seed are amazing.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're they've got an awesome team.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've just um literally in two hours, the third episode's going out of a self-custody series where I've done Robin, Daniel, um, and the guys at MicroSeed.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's awesome.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like by design, you can lose it, it doesn't really look like a seed phrase, it could end up being anywhere.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, the coolest thing is friends, family, as Bitcoin becomes more mainstream and more people need a seed phrase, instead of them having to buy stamping kit, they just need to buy the washers.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: They can go to this the local hardware store, spend ten dollars, and you can lend them the actual smacking device.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so instead of having to buy a hundred dollar blocks every time, you can just give them or they can get their own washers.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a super cool bit of kit, and um yeah, I've got nothing but good feedback for them.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, yeah.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're we're excited.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, we're excited to get it.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because we did an episode with Fritz one time.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: I know I think he's a he's a sponsor of that, or uh um a partner.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Co-founder, yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then hopefully we'll we have something uh scheduled for with Robin in the near future here as well.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and then we have you on here, so it's cool that all of you guys are tied to it, so even better.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um just because we haven't touched on this, so I'm really glad, and this is great for her because we have our stuff here at the house, right?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: But now with the micro seat, it's gonna be cool and we're gonna get you know a new wallet and stuff like that.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's gonna like come full circle for her.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because she's she's pretty new, and that's why another reason why we started this podcast, right?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's the couples and uh she's just learning it long perspective.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, dude, like you need to talk to Finn, right?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so this is it right here.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so no, this is good though.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is good, Finn.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um I was I was laughing when you were saying you want to throw the hammer at the wall.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was laughing, I we, you know, there's gonna be probably a moment when we're doing this that we're gonna want to either throw it at the wall or throw it at each other.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's gonna happen yet.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so yeah, no, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how that works because uh for a while he was kind of just doing it on his own, and so I was like, okay, yeah, he'd be like, no, we need to know this phrase.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need to know this.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: If anything were to happen to me, right?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but now I have to get into this thing and try to figure it out.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it seems really intimidating, right?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm glad there'll be an actual physical something for us to to have um that like I can access a little bit easier for sure.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like I said at the start, just like driving a car, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: If I gave you a car and you'd never driven before, you'd be like, whoa, but yeah, uh you've also got Anthony um to to guide you and help you, but it's super cool that you're doing it together.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know you said you got three kids as well, so get the serious stamping done, but then you can give give that hammer and the stuff and they can have a whack and play around because the washes are only a few cents and they can start hammering their names in and stuff and um have some fun with it.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: So beyond that first go where you might want to start hammering your name into each other's heads or something, uh it will be it'll be good fun, and then hopefully the kids can have a whack and some fun too.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's cool.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: It just seemed like the best one.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, we've seen uh the like the metal plate, and then there was like I think like a little like a little scroll thing, uh titanium scroll, where you can just put your seatbelt, keep it in paper, I think maybe.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then it just protects within the fire.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, I think like the like you said, why would you risk it?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: You're like if you're listening to this podcast, if you're hot big one, you put it in the software, like you're being your own bank, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're gonna be your own bank, you need to take that very seriously.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um especially like you said, you know, uh Ben, like where it's going.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: We all know where it's going, so like why not treat it like that right now?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, don't hesitate for it to go like, oh like let me oh let me get my stuff together, let me act you know, get my my act together, because now Bitcoin's where I thought it was, you know, no where it's at now.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no, treat it like that now, so then when you're there, you're just like, oh dude, you're just you're just cruising.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what I always say to people when I speak to them.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, these people blurt out how much Bitcoin they have when they shouldn't, but they they think it's not much.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and most of the time it is a lot to start with, but even if it's not, what I say to people is put a 10x, put a hundred X on the value of that Bitcoin and pretend that was today.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are you comfortable with your setup today if your Bitcoin was worth 10x or 100x more?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: If the answer's no, then you want to set it up today because Bitcoin will 10x and it will 100x.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also funny enough the thing that stops people deploying more capital into Bitcoin because they're not comfortable with their setup, so therefore they're not comfortable deploying more capital.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it works both ways, but if Bitcoin was 10x or 100x more valuable than it is today, would you be comfortable?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, then you need to get it set uh sorted now.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: I agree, I agree, and that's why and that's why um you know we're taking these next steps, you know, getting a micro C and you know, getting, you know, the next uh we want to get a cold uh a cold car Q.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that's the best wallet, Bitcoin wallet, air gap, like you said, um open source.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like, dude, like this is like we need to be like next level, next level, you know, and running a node, you know, is also in the works as well.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just these next steps that you have to take.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like we like we have a Bitcoin podcast and we're not having like the best of the best, right?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, and not to say that there's you know knocking the other ones, but it's just like when you do your research and you kind of like you can weave out, you know, what's the best in your own way, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's personal finance, right?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever works best for you.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone has their own growth journey too, their own educational journey.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, not everyone learned how Finn did and you know, learned the right way to do things.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Learn the right way to do things, but yeah, you everyone has to figure things out, unfortunately, you know, at their own pace.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we've had so many different um guests on our podcast as you have too.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, wow, I can't believe you are still able to have your Bitcoin, probably, or like I can't believe you haven't had it hacked, or I don't know.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: You just I mean, I'm I'm sure there's just horror stories.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like horror stories, right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and speaking of those, like I'm I think I know the answer by now, but what what would be one Simple way to prevent any like Bitcoin horror story?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um you just need to learn the right steps and and implement them.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so if you're not sure then perhaps you're better leaving on an exchange for the time being till you learn those steps.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said right at the start, you either learn uh you either learn through investing money to someone that can coach you and walk you through and hold your hand through the process, like uh Bitcoin Success School, like we do, and we literally take you from zero to fully self-sovereign and and confident.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's the most important thing, confident with the setup, or you invest your time and you use free resources that are around.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: So BTC Sessions has amazing free tutorials, but that takes time.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: So some people pay for the reassurance that they know that it's done correctly where someone walks them through that process.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Some people actually prefer learning themselves and they don't need that reassurance.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: So either or the best way to avoid making these mistakes is to not rush ahead, go at a pace that you're comfortable with, but make sure you're doing it correctly and don't take any shortcuts.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's really good.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um one of my last questions to kind of wrap things up too in a little bit, is what are your thoughts on multi-sig?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is this something that needs to be, you know, in place after you have a micro C, after you have a Bitcoin-only uh hardware wallet?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what it where does multi-sig come into play?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, it comes back down to again what I said towards the start.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: So for most people, I don't think multi-sig's um necessary because it adds complexity to your setup, and most people are going to lose Bitcoin because of their own complexity as opposed to getting hacked or losing it due to someone else.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're um a public face, a public figure speaking about Bitcoin, just by doing that, you have a target on your back.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, no no one knows how much Bitcoin you have.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: You guys might have ten dollars of Bitcoin, but you also might have a hundred uh bitcoin, thousand bitcoin.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: No one knows that, but what they do know is that you talk about Bitcoin.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a public figure, then you definitely need to go steps ahead that again mitigate that risk where someone can go, these two talk about Bitcoin, so they probably have Bitcoin.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna pay them a visit.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: If they raid your entire house and everything is in one spot, then suddenly you're at risk.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's self-custody is a spectrum, but for most people, I don't think they need self-custody, they just need to have a single signature wallet done correctly with all of their backups in place, um, and then, like we said, maybe one or two wallets within that.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: But for people that are public um figures speaking about Bitcoin, and that doesn't mean you need to be famous, that means you're talking about Bitcoin publicly, even if you have two subscribers, you want to be mindful that you're only one post away from going viral to start with, and you have a target on your back because of that.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you probably want to maybe go one step further and just mitigate that risk.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, it it's it gets a bit technical, but maybe you don't even need multi-sig, maybe a passphrase wallet that's distributed geographically, it would suffice, but it's it's kind of up to the individual what they feel most comfortable with and what's best for them.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um because like you've just said, like, even if you're speaking about Bitcoin and having loads of conversations with Bitcoiners, um if you don't understand the multi-sig setup that you've got and something happens to you guys, then your family's locked out, then that bitcoin's gone anyway.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it really is about being as secure as you need to be based on your scenario, whilst making it as least complex as possible.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, that's good, that's really good.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because for me personally, like it's something I want to um um have.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I think I've been kind of lacking on it.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: I do want to know, like I and I've been uh fortunate, like I've done my own uh research from the very beginning, my own Bitcoin journey.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: So of like you know, hardware wallets, you know, transferring it over, like like you said, like I learned do the baby steps, I would send twenty dollars over.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like I did all of these and it's very I'm very comfortable with it.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I really really appreciate you sharing like that.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it is something where like if something happened to us, like it needs to be easy where our kids can access it too.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because you don't think about that, you just think about yourself and a multi-sig, right?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's kind of where I'm at.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: But now that you kind of put it, you kind of planted that seed in me, like it also needs to be easy for my kids if anything were to happen to us, right?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so um, no, this is really good, this is really super um helpful, and I really appreciate all of this too.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is great, fam.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is great.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: So insightful.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's no no worries at all.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're all um things to consider, and it it's very easy to get caught up in the complexity because you can make self-custody super complex, but a lot of the time you really don't need to.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you guys being public voices need to take into consideration more things than someone that's just uh anonymously stacking sats in the background if that makes sense.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, we can talk about a few ideas perhaps after the podcast um recording, so we're not doxxing anything, but yeah.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sounds good.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds good.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um was there anything else you wanted to add then?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was just gonna No, I'm I don't think so.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like you covered everything that I'm thinking of, and then we'll probably like you said, chat a little bit more too if we have any other other questions.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, where can people connect with you?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people you know get in touch and I don't know, maybe you have a way for us to learn more?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: To go to the school.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, yeah, yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um all my social media is at FinnCrichton, so I'm sure you guys can put that in the show notes below, and then um if you want to book a thirty I offer a 30 uh 30 minute free consultation for anyone that wants to learn more about the self-custody process and and see if it's right for them.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: So they can uh my website's bitcoinsuccessschool.com, and then if you um just click on the book call link, uh feel free to find a time that works for you on the Condor and I'd I'd love to speak and and see if we can help.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess to have you again, of course.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so no, that's awesome.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again, Finn.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um we really appreciate this.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, carving out time, you know, everyone's doing their thing and going through life, and so we really appreciate this.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, maybe we can do like a round two in the future.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: But uh thanks.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again for everything.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Finn.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, guys.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you, everyone else, for listening.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you can uh catch us on To the Moon with Luna's podcast, and we'll see you guys soon.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.