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Kristin Watson: Surviving a Religious Cult · Surviving-ISH Podcast

0:01
Speaker 1: In every dark tunnel, there's a glimmer of hope.
0:03
Speaker 1: In every painful moment, there's a strength to heal.
0:06
Speaker 1: Welcome to Surviving Podcast.
0:34
Speaker 1: So I got a message from our guest today, miss Kristin Watson, and this is her very first podcast, and she told me that she's been actually listening and following the show for quite a while, which makes me so happy.
0:50
Speaker 1: And then we were even having conversation and she was talking about some of the episodes she's listed to and it just tickles me, it makes me so happy.
0:58
Speaker 1: So, kristin, thank you so much for being here.
1:03
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
1:04
Speaker 2: I'm really excited.
1:06
Speaker 1: I told you when we logged in, like the way you're sitting with the sun shining in on you, and that green sweater and your new hair like you look stunning.
1:15
Speaker 2: I wanted to do a color that was really bold but makes me feel really brave.
1:19
Speaker 1: Yes, I love it.
1:20
Speaker 1: I have already just fallen in love with you because the conversation that we were having and how you're taking control, and even just the thought of I'm going to wear something bold because it makes me feel brave my brain doesn't know to think that way, but because you just said that I won't forget it now and every time that I go to put on a color I will have that thought that's going to stick with me.
1:42
Speaker 2: That's awesome, see.
1:43
Speaker 2: It's all about that human connection.
1:44
Speaker 2: It's all about telling your story, talking about the things that are in your brain, because there's probably somebody else thinking the same thing, but maybe they don't have the words to say it.
1:56
Speaker 2: Now you've given them the words to be able to say it and you've given them that power, and giving power is everything.
2:05
Speaker 1: Take a moment and introduce yourself.
2:08
Speaker 2: I am a mom of two.
2:11
Speaker 2: I have a five-year-old little girl and a 14-year-old boy.
2:14
Speaker 2: It's like living in a world where there are just completely opposites.
2:18
Speaker 2: We have the teenage angst and the Pokemon and the anime, and then we have the five-year-old who is all into princesses and fairies and magic.
2:27
Speaker 2: It's a completely different world.
2:29
Speaker 2: I've been married for 18 years, actually almost 19.
2:32
Speaker 2: It'll be 19 in May.
2:33
Speaker 2: So we got married at 19 years old very young and we have created an amazing family together.
2:40
Speaker 2: So that's where I'm at now.
2:42
Speaker 2: I actually grew up pretty religious my entire life, since I can remember as a little child, one of the churches I knew was the donut church, because they had donuts all the time at church and that was my favorite thing.
2:56
Speaker 2: That's why I like to go.
2:58
Speaker 2: I found out later on that, unfortunately, my dad tended to go to churches that really promoted that male dominance, but so much so that it was very abusive to my mother.
3:10
Speaker 2: They would preach from the pulp.
3:12
Speaker 2: That's what you do to your wife.
3:13
Speaker 2: So it wasn't just, oh, I need to corporal punishment my children, but it was also your wife as well.
3:19
Speaker 2: My dad is a very big conspiracy theorist, so growing up we were very fearful of the government and anything involving the government was a very fearful thing.
3:31
Speaker 2: So he then gravitated towards churches that would give him that authority because he didn't trust anybody else.
3:38
Speaker 2: So he wanted that power in our home.
3:40
Speaker 2: So, like I said, from the time I can remember, it was always pretty extreme churches, but it really didn't get as extreme until I was about nine years old.
3:52
Speaker 2: I had a brother who was actually David, so that's who my son is named.
3:56
Speaker 2: After my brother passed away he was almost two.
4:00
Speaker 2: He had a very rare blood disease, was in the hospital pretty much the second half of his life.
4:05
Speaker 2: But during the time that we were there my family found a church that reached out to them, which churches should do to help and be a support in everything.
4:13
Speaker 2: Fortunately for me it was an independent fundamentalist Baptist church.
4:17
Speaker 2: So thus began the spiral downwards into what ended up being a very cult-like environment in a different church.
4:25
Speaker 2: But that was the beginning of it.
4:27
Speaker 2: So they gave my family a lot of support, obviously, which I'm very appreciative of.
4:32
Speaker 2: I'm grateful that my parents had that.
4:34
Speaker 2: Being a mom of two, I can't even imagine what that would be like to lose a child, so I'm really grateful that they had people.
4:43
Speaker 2: But I think the unfortunate part is and I will not sit here and say that all churches do that, because that's 100% not true, but a particular brand of churches tend to, in my mind, looking and being as a person inside of it prey on people at their weakest moments and use that to then be there all, and then you feel like you're indebted to them and then it's harder to get out of those situations because you feel like now they've done all these things for me, they've saved me.
5:15
Speaker 2: I don't want to leave anymore because I feel that sense of indebtedness to them, if that makes sense.
5:23
Speaker 2: So in this particular church is when I could no longer wear pants as a girl.
5:27
Speaker 2: Up until that point we were pretty general Christian with that it was taught very heavily that really the sole goal of a girl was to marry, have children.
5:37
Speaker 2: That was it.
5:38
Speaker 2: That was your story.
5:40
Speaker 2: It was all very male driven.
5:42
Speaker 2: Everything was about the men.
5:44
Speaker 2: As a child, you most certainly didn't have a voice, but as a woman as well.
5:48
Speaker 2: So being a girl in these religions, you literally had zero authority.
5:53
Speaker 2: You had zero voice.
5:55
Speaker 2: I also attended during that time.
5:57
Speaker 2: They had some camps that you would go away to during the summer and on one of those camps the camps, so that's funny they were called children's camps, but it was nothing but they would have hours and hours of preaching at nighttime.
6:10
Speaker 2: So you would literally sit there as I think I was a 10 year old, 11 year old girl hours of just not preaching oh let's, god is love and all those other things.
6:22
Speaker 2: It was not like that.
6:23
Speaker 2: It was all your.
6:25
Speaker 2: You are sinful, you are evil.
6:28
Speaker 2: God is the only thing that's good about you.
6:31
Speaker 2: If you allow God to do it, they would.
6:34
Speaker 2: This is back.
6:35
Speaker 2: Okay, now I'm dating myself.
6:36
Speaker 2: Blockbuster.
6:37
Speaker 2: They passed her on a basket because they said that was of the devil, and so they made anybody that had a blockbuster card put it in the basket, because TV movies, anything that was deemed not of the church, that was of the world, was evil, and so it was your job to be so separate from that that one people would know that you're separate, but that you would also then not be tainted by the world, because that would tempt you to then leave the faith.
7:10
Speaker 2: So I actually, prior to this, I was professionally figure skating.
7:15
Speaker 2: I started skating when I was three years old and it was literally the love of my life.
7:22
Speaker 2: I, from the time I woke up in the morning, my I started being homeschooled when I was in fourth grade, all the way through, and so I could do this.
7:30
Speaker 2: I could wake up in the morning and go to the rink, and I would, literally.
7:32
Speaker 2: I had goals of going to the Olympics and I got to skate at one point with Tara Lepinsky at a workshop.
7:39
Speaker 2: So, yes, I have her autograph.
7:41
Speaker 2: I was so excited.
7:42
Speaker 2: Who?
7:44
Speaker 1: is that.
7:46
Speaker 2: Never believe it's on a piece of yellow lined paper, because that's all I had, because I didn't know she was going to be there under this workshop and I had no idea that she was going to be there.
7:59
Speaker 2: And then she showed up and I was like, oh my gosh, like my heart almost died because I'm short and she is two, and so she, just it was somebody that I just adored and I was like I wanted to be like her.
8:11
Speaker 2: So I will never forget that moment in my life.
8:13
Speaker 2: It's something that's etched in my memory, I think, forever.
8:17
Speaker 2: But funny enough, actually, the reason why we found that church is the pastor.
8:22
Speaker 2: He couldn't afford to support his family on the salary, so he was working at the figure skating rink and so he saw me skate.
8:30
Speaker 2: And now, normally in that religion that would not be allowed because one is very self serving to the outfits are definitely not conforming.
8:39
Speaker 2: But he told my parents that he saw me skate and he's.
8:43
Speaker 2: That could not be not of God, because he said it was so beautiful he's.
8:48
Speaker 2: I can't take that away from her.
8:49
Speaker 2: So I guess in that respect that was shocking.
8:53
Speaker 1: Did he try to use that in a way where he could then benefit from your talent?
9:00
Speaker 2: And it ends up being kind of part of the story, unfortunately, best of ways.
9:04
Speaker 2: I genuinely think I know a bit about him now and he's actually come completely out of that religion and he's changed a lot, and so I genuinely believe and this is the thing a lot of people will get on and say, oh my gosh, these people are awful and they're coming up in my story.
9:21
Speaker 2: There are, and there are genuinely people who deserve those titles.
9:24
Speaker 2: He is a person who I genuinely believed that he did appreciate the talent that I had, because that's the way he made me feel I never felt it was insidious or so.
9:36
Speaker 2: I'm very grateful for that because otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed even the time that I did have in that.
9:42
Speaker 2: So I do think we had two daughters of his own.
9:46
Speaker 2: I think he really did appreciate that I was just, it was my heart.
9:50
Speaker 2: It was the time I can still smell the ice rink like it was yesterday, just feeling the smooth ice beneath my skates.
9:57
Speaker 2: It's, it was everything to me, and so I think he just saw that and he just.
10:05
Speaker 2: I was known as a very good Christian girl, so how could it not be of God, since somebody who clearly loves God is doing it.
10:13
Speaker 2: Unfortunately for me, that same camp they.
10:18
Speaker 2: I'm a very emotional person and so, unfortunately, when you get put in these cult like environments, you are manipulated extremely easily, because I feel things so one of the times that they were preaching, they were just basically again honing in on the fact that if it's not of God, if it is not serving God and it's not for God, that's evil, that's wrong, that's of the devil.
10:45
Speaker 2: So, being the person that I was and believing all of it with all of my fiber and my soul, I believed it was my job to give that up as a good Christian.
10:58
Speaker 2: That was my sacrifice.
11:01
Speaker 2: That I was going to make is I was going to give that up and I will never forget that night because Sorry it's I was crying and even my brother older brother, who was there crying to you because I think he was just like how was she doing this?
11:16
Speaker 2: And then the unfortunate part when I came back and I told my story, I was now the person who sacrificed this massive thing and the pastor started doing sermons about me and people often now say, maybe be like oh, wow, that was amazing that you got all of this.
11:36
Speaker 2: Thanks and praise.
11:37
Speaker 2: That's not what I wanted I.
11:40
Speaker 2: What I would have wanted, looking back now as an adult, is to be able to have parents that would say you don't need to do that for that.
11:49
Speaker 2: If there is a God because I'm at a point in my life that is something I'm not sure about.
11:54
Speaker 2: But if there is, and it is the type of God that I hear about and supposed to be loving, why would he want you to do that?
12:02
Speaker 2: You don't need to do that for him, this is for you and that's okay.
12:07
Speaker 2: That's what I would have wanted to hear from them, and so I stopped.
12:12
Speaker 2: After that, I never went back.
12:14
Speaker 2: My coach didn't understand, and I used I think my parents were almost upset with me too, because they spent all this money.
12:24
Speaker 2: They didn't understand it, and so I came up with just some excuses of oh, I just don't, I don't like it anymore, I just I felt like I couldn't go back ever, and I never went back to it again.
12:39
Speaker 1: That breaks my heart and it makes me so sad.
12:42
Speaker 1: That was your therapy, that was your escape, that was your talent that could have led into so many open doors.
12:51
Speaker 1: I'm understanding correctly that it is presented as God gave you this as a test, and to pass this test is to shun this away and only focus on this.
13:07
Speaker 1: And so you passed the test by letting go of what was yours.
13:14
Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, and I was praised for it.
13:16
Speaker 2: I had sermons preached about me and that, in my mind, as a girl who, again, every fiber of my being, believed everything that I was being told and given my situation with my father that was really the only father that I knew Of course I was going to do anything that I needed to do to be the perfect child.
13:44
Speaker 2: That's all I wanted and so that's just.
13:47
Speaker 2: It's what I believed I had to do.
13:50
Speaker 2: That was of the flesh and so that was, yeah, my sacrifice that I needed to make.
13:57
Speaker 2: And I, looking back again, I wish it hadn't, although it is funny, because if I hadn't stopped you'll see later on in the story I probably wouldn't have met my husband Again.
14:08
Speaker 2: I am not going to sit here and say, oh, I'm grateful for these things, because those things were not my choice, but they are lessons and there is a path in life and I'm happy with the ending point where I have to accept the fact.
14:27
Speaker 2: That is what it is and that I think, as part of the journey is just accepting that this happened and feeling those feelings and understanding it's okay to be angry and sad and hurt and accept all of that and just accept it and move forward, if you can, yeah.
14:47
Speaker 1: I don't know where I stand with religion because, as you were talking and as we were conversing, even about the ice skating thing, if I have to live a life not worth living and be miserable and send away anything good happening to me just to go to heaven, heaven doesn't sound that great and I'm not sure that's where I would want to be.
15:09
Speaker 1: I would want to take my ice skating talent to heaven with me and put on the biggest, grandest show and the most gorgeous wings.
15:16
Speaker 1: I get pissed off with that.
15:19
Speaker 1: I've said on the show many times that if hell is filled with people like me, it can't be that bad of a place and I truly believe that.
15:30
Speaker 1: And some of these people that are talking about having this and having that and that's where I'm going to be.
15:34
Speaker 1: I'm like I hope that there's different sections because I don't want to be in yours.
15:40
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, you're right, yeah, because it just you know that.
15:44
Speaker 2: So when you're talking about religions, the thing that set this apart so you think of independent fundamentalist so independent is it is a church of its own self, so there are no other churches that they're answering to fundamentalists.
15:59
Speaker 2: They specifically go verbatim with what the Bible, and specifically the King James Bible, says.
16:06
Speaker 2: So I always try to tell people, because initially they hear Baptists and so I sometimes will leave it off because Baptists will have a very different connotation to it.
16:14
Speaker 2: They'll think of general, bigger Baptist churches, and there are those.
16:18
Speaker 2: It's these sects of churches, which is a very big section of churches if you really look at the country, but they are the extreme versions of these churches because one the pastor is not answering to anybody and besides God, and again, we as humans, if there is a God you can't communicate, you can't hear back from God, you can't see God.
16:44
Speaker 2: How do you know that what he's saying is true is if the only person that he is getting his approval from is from someone that you can't communicate with yourself?
16:55
Speaker 2: So it gives them all of the power, and so when you put these men in power, anybody in a power position that are not good people.
17:04
Speaker 2: They use that power then obviously for the wrong reasons, and that's when you get into the trouble of things.
17:11
Speaker 2: So again, I will never sit here and say that all churches are just these awful things.
17:16
Speaker 2: They're not my cup of tea at the moment.
17:19
Speaker 2: But when you do get into these smaller, fundamentalist, isolated churches that then have grown, that's when you have to start questioning okay, why am I being isolated?
17:32
Speaker 2: Why am I being told that if I go outside of this into the world I'm going to be evil or I'm going to go to the devil?
17:40
Speaker 2: That's when you have to red flag.
17:42
Speaker 2: Okay, why are they isolating me from everybody?
17:45
Speaker 2: Because that's not the point To me and my.
17:48
Speaker 2: There was a perfect world.
17:49
Speaker 2: A church would be a place of community, a place of people coming together and getting edification and then helping your neighbors and helping your community.
17:58
Speaker 2: That, to me, would be what a church is for, and not isolating you from everybody.
18:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would like to say because this is actually something you and I had talked about off recording we're not by any means putting down religion.
18:16
Speaker 1: We're not saying all churches are awful or all Christians or whatever title you have with.
18:22
Speaker 1: That is bad.
18:22
Speaker 1: I want everyone to understand.
18:24
Speaker 1: I'm only speaking from my experience and none of us is here to put down anyone else's thoughts or religion or whatever, and I don't think that I have to preface with saying that.
18:35
Speaker 1: But it just makes me feel better when you're talking about the preachers and they're saying God's telling us this.
18:43
Speaker 1: What would happen if anyone from the congregation said God is telling me this?
18:49
Speaker 1: Like what would happen?
18:52
Speaker 2: It would be more of that's your own selfish pride saying those things.
18:58
Speaker 2: So there's a hierarchy of very strict hierarchy in this specific sect and that is God, the pastor, the father or husband and the children.
19:11
Speaker 2: And you've probably, you've maybe seen that umbrella, though the umbrellas, and you're protected underneath those umbrellas.
19:18
Speaker 2: No one goes outside of that and that is just a known thing, that if you are part of this, you do not question the authority of the pastor, because it is told that if you question the authority of the pastor, you're questioning God.
19:33
Speaker 2: So therefore, you are always in the wrong.
19:37
Speaker 2: So that's just.
19:38
Speaker 2: It just is.
19:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, with certain words do get overused, it loses the true definition, and so I'm honestly asking you your opinion of this.
19:50
Speaker 1: So when you were mentioning the child camps and there was more of the adults preaching, would you consider that being part of a grooming process?
20:02
Speaker 2: I would, because I feel like that whole sector is grooming in a sense, because, especially as a child, because from the day that you are born you are put in a very specific position.
20:19
Speaker 2: You are told to act and behave a very specific way and there are repercussions if you are not.
20:25
Speaker 2: So I believe that entire process honestly is a grooming process, because they are grooming you to get in line to obey the people that are above.
20:38
Speaker 2: You.
20:39
Speaker 2: Do not go outside of that or else there are these repercussions.
20:43
Speaker 2: Right, the devil is outside of this.
20:45
Speaker 2: So that whole process is grooming and that's why it is such a difficult thing.
20:50
Speaker 2: So I have CPTSD.
20:53
Speaker 2: It's basically when and you've probably heard this term it is very different than PTSD.
20:58
Speaker 2: Ptsd is more of your singular traumas at a specific time and place.
21:04
Speaker 2: Cptsd happens over a long period of time, generally throughout your childhood, when your brain is still developing, and you have multiple traumas just all throughout that time.
21:16
Speaker 2: So there are, instead of maybe being a couple triggers, there are a plethora of triggers that you have to deal with but that it's so hard to get out of that because your brain is literally as it was forming and as you're developing.
21:31
Speaker 2: These are the core things that you are taught to believe.
21:36
Speaker 2: And I say the word brainwashed, and I don't say that lightly Again.
21:40
Speaker 2: I believe that that you sometimes were like, oh my gosh, what are you talking about?
21:43
Speaker 2: I'm not scared to use that anymore because I know the facts and I know that as a child, your brain isn't fully developed and when you are put in a position of fear and pain and are groomed to believe these specific things and groomed to know that these are the parameters and what will happen if you don't, that's a very challenging thing to get out of and, as an adult, to not think the same way sometimes because your brain has literally developed to think these exact ways.
22:17
Speaker 2: So, yes, it is in long answer short.
22:21
Speaker 2: Yes, I truly believe that whole process is a very big grooming process.
22:25
Speaker 2: So that was outside of Chicago.
22:27
Speaker 2: That's where I was born and raised for most of my life.
22:30
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, in mixed in all of this, my home life was a very abusive place my dad with the whole.
22:39
Speaker 2: You have to train your wife.
22:41
Speaker 2: You also have to train your child.
22:43
Speaker 2: Spare the rod, spoil the child.
22:45
Speaker 2: It's funny.
22:46
Speaker 2: I remember all of the verses that they used to use over and over again.
22:50
Speaker 2: It was generally like a paddle.
22:53
Speaker 2: If you screamed, you got more.
22:55
Speaker 2: So I learned very early on, at a very young age, to just be silent.
23:00
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, some of my other brothers didn't and they had that part of it even worse than I did.
23:07
Speaker 2: But the whole goal and you'll see this more in the other church we ended up in is to break the will of your child, and that's what they preach is.
23:17
Speaker 2: Your child has a will.
23:18
Speaker 2: It is your job as a parent to break that will, because in order for them to be used by God and to be able to listen to you, their will must be broken.
23:29
Speaker 2: So, whatever that takes, every child is different.
23:33
Speaker 2: Obviously, for some like me I tended to be I was terrified and so I told the line a lot and I shut down.
23:42
Speaker 2: But for others, a lot like I said, some of my younger brothers they're more difficult.
23:47
Speaker 2: Some more extreme measures would be used, which is, again, being a mom.
23:52
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine that concept of breaking a will that it sounds so extreme because it is, and so I like to just say that, because that's just the fact.
24:02
Speaker 2: It's what they preach, that's what they talked.
24:05
Speaker 2: So again, going back to my dad being the conspiracy theorist, he believed that Y2K was going to shut down the entire world and that everything was going to go crazy.
24:16
Speaker 2: He would tell us that we were going to be taken to concentration camps at gunpoint.
24:22
Speaker 2: So my family we canned food we like did all this preparation.
24:29
Speaker 2: We ended up moving to this very small town in East Tennessee.
24:33
Speaker 2: We got I don't know 20 acres of land in the middle of nowhere and of a gravel, dirt road, and I, you can imagine, I grew up in a suburb of Chicago.
24:45
Speaker 2: I loved the mall.
24:46
Speaker 2: I was a very I say I'm a very well rounded girl, but I do like really girly things too.
24:52
Speaker 2: The thought of moving to the middle of nowhere where there were like ticks and I didn't even know what a tick was until we moved there and that was, that's a whole other story.
25:03
Speaker 2: But we had our own generator, we had chickens, we had a whole storage shed that had aisles, like a grocery store where it was like canned food and necessities and planning for all of these things to happen.
25:19
Speaker 2: So that was the point in my life where I was so angry with my parents for moving me away from because I was like 12, everything that I knew in life to this time.
25:31
Speaker 2: Nowhere where the mall and here's a funny part of the story the mall should not have been a mall.
25:36
Speaker 2: It wasn't a mall, it was like five stores and I was like, where am I living?
25:41
Speaker 2: Someone dropped me into this crazy country place and.
25:46
Speaker 2: But obviously that's the lighter side, and the heavy side is it was terrifying because I had a lot of nightmares believing I was being shot, because my dad was so big on telling us that we were going to be rounded up and brought to these concentration camps as Christians and because the government was going to come after us.
26:05
Speaker 2: So I was really terrified at the same time because now we're really isolated.
26:10
Speaker 2: Before, at least, we had some of my relatives and things are up there, but here we didn't know anyone and it was just us.
26:17
Speaker 2: So my dad got pretty extreme with a lot of things.
26:21
Speaker 2: He was very extreme with just I wanted to hide every time he was around.
26:26
Speaker 2: So a lot of the times if he was in the home I would go in my room and either clean or do something to stay away from him, because he just was a very you didn't know what you were going to get from one moment to the next with him.
26:38
Speaker 2: So here.
26:39
Speaker 2: I went from having at least some sort of outside support to now there's literally nobody but my family in this environment and we ended up.
26:50
Speaker 2: This is when we ended up in the final fundamentalists, or independent fundamentalist Baptist Church.
26:55
Speaker 2: That was the extreme, the most extreme out of the ones that I grew up in and now, looking back at it, now that we're sitting here talking, I don't even remember how we ended up finding it.
27:05
Speaker 2: I think my parents met somebody, maybe from the church, because the church was an hour and a half away from where we lived, and we started going to this church every Sunday and Wednesday, an hour and a half away.
27:19
Speaker 2: So, of course, raised as oh, this family is sacrificing all this time.
27:27
Speaker 2: So again, being the angsty little 12 year old that I was and I was so angry, I started going on chat rooms and things back in the day again, really aging myself, and I went through this, really what was called is like the rebellious phase, because I was screaming inside and I couldn't scream outside because I was looking for some way to connect to somebody else and I was so naive I know I wasn't taught anything I could have gotten myself into so much trouble.
27:57
Speaker 2: Looking back, so I'm really grateful that I didn't connect with a predator, or I could have, and I didn't even know it.
28:04
Speaker 2: And I was in peak season for that kind of situation because I was angry, I didn't have a voice, I was hurting and I didn't know what to do.
28:16
Speaker 2: And my parents knew I was doing something on the computer so they had someone at the church do like a full on manhunt in the computer and hopefully they couldn't find chat room conversations because those things aren't saved.
28:29
Speaker 2: So I was saved from that.
28:30
Speaker 2: But they saw enough to know that I was doing that kind of thing so I had all of my privileges revoked.
28:36
Speaker 2: My door came off.
28:37
Speaker 2: I was totally like a lockdown.
28:40
Speaker 2: So I that was the last time actually that I got corporal punishment as well, and I remember it because I was 13 years old and honestly it was probably the most vivid for me because I was so old and it was my father.
28:54
Speaker 2: And being a teenager and having that happen, I think it's just a different experience than even when you're little.
29:02
Speaker 2: So I learned that there was no room for me to be that way and I needed to just do what I was told, act the way they wanted me to act, believe what they wanted me to believe, to just survive.
29:18
Speaker 2: So I did and I literally became this again where pastors have preached about me.
29:25
Speaker 2: I helped the church.
29:26
Speaker 2: I was always the go to.
29:29
Speaker 2: I had a smile on my face 24, seven, because that's the role that I was expected to play and I played it extremely well.
29:37
Speaker 2: I kept a journal through all of these times.
29:39
Speaker 2: I didn't write down.
29:40
Speaker 2: It's funny.
29:41
Speaker 2: I refused to write down a lot of the bad stuff because I was terrified someone would find it.
29:45
Speaker 2: So a lot of it is more just hopes and dreams and not any of the really bad things, because I was so terrified they would find it and then I would get in more trouble.
29:55
Speaker 2: So I was scared to write anything down.
29:57
Speaker 2: So everything was in my head.
29:58
Speaker 2: So I really didn't have a space to talk about anything that was going on.
30:04
Speaker 2: The abuse in my own home, my mother she wasn't as physical with us, but she was emotionally as I've gone through therapy and really looked back, she wasn't there.
30:18
Speaker 2: I never really had that when a mom sits down and says are you okay?
30:24
Speaker 2: Can we talk about this?
30:26
Speaker 2: Can I be there for you?
30:27
Speaker 2: She was very good at holidays and if you were to meet her today, unless you really knew her, you'd be like, oh my gosh, she's this amazing person.
30:36
Speaker 2: But at home it was a lot of name calling with me.
30:41
Speaker 2: I was the only girl and it felt like very competition, unfortunately, in our relationship.
30:46
Speaker 2: So I didn't have any support throughout my life and I became the mother in my family.
30:54
Speaker 2: So, backtracking a bit, when my brother passed away, I was 10 and I took over everything.
31:01
Speaker 2: I helped the homeschooling with my brothers.
31:04
Speaker 2: I did all the cooking and the cleaning of my youngest brother, so I had a brother that actually was born a little bit after when my brother passed away and he became like my baby, literally my baby.
31:16
Speaker 2: I latched on to him like he was my own and he would sleep with me, I would sing to him, I was just, I was the mom and so I never really had that experience of being taken care of and having your emotional needs taken care of and feeling safe.
31:36
Speaker 2: There was just never a point in my life where I felt safe because the home that I lived in didn't feel safe.
31:42
Speaker 2: The church I wasn't allowed to be me because we saw what that happened.
31:47
Speaker 2: I saw what happened and I expressed myself when I went against the status quo, so I became what everybody wanted me to be.
31:58
Speaker 1: I just want to do a little check in, because I know that talking about this is hard and I'm so glad that you're in a place where you can share.
32:08
Speaker 1: But as I'm watching tell the story, you've gotten choked up a couple of times.
32:12
Speaker 1: This was such a huge part of your life that still has.
32:18
Speaker 1: There's still repercussions to it.
32:21
Speaker 1: I think that you had mentioned, of course, when you're talking about the roles in the church and where the roles that women play, did the church allow women to have any kind of voice at all?
32:35
Speaker 1: What I'm wondering about is, when it came to being a mother to the child, like she was allowed to discipline, she was allowed to be a rule maker, yeah, so that's the hierarchy.
32:47
Speaker 2: So you've got the father, but then you have the mother.
32:49
Speaker 2: So the mother is over the children, so they are allowed.
32:53
Speaker 2: So even in the church there was women's Bible study where the pastor's wife taught the women.
32:58
Speaker 2: So you have a voice from anybody that was below you.
33:03
Speaker 2: So my mother she did.
33:05
Speaker 2: Ultimately, when it comes down to it, if my mother were to say one thing and my father to say the other thing, my father would trump that.
33:14
Speaker 2: But mother would be the one to make most of those rules for the children, to make sure that those are being enforced and those types of things.
33:25
Speaker 2: Yes, okay.
33:27
Speaker 2: So for her, I feel, and I feel like a lot of that came up later in life too, I think for her she has her own story and all of that.
33:37
Speaker 2: But I still haven't fully dissected why that was there.
33:42
Speaker 2: Because I've looked back for me, the way my brain fixed it is, my dad was so physically and verbally abusive.
33:51
Speaker 2: He was a very terrifying person.
33:53
Speaker 2: There's a lot of stories there that I'm not going to go into, but there was nothing there that was even remotely safe.
34:01
Speaker 2: So my brain from my mother took she was extremely good with holidays.
34:06
Speaker 2: I will remember those for the rest of my life.
34:08
Speaker 2: I still, to this day, make holidays big because I love that feeling.
34:13
Speaker 2: I love giving my children that feeling.
34:15
Speaker 2: She took us on some vacations, so she was very good at these things.
34:18
Speaker 2: So I, in my mind, calculated this person around those good things, avoiding that there is nothing substantial underneath all of those things.
34:29
Speaker 2: And when I discovered that, going through therapy, that, I think, honestly, was one of the hardest realizations for me was that what I had thought in my mind was not the reality of the situation and that I truly parented and mothered myself my entire life.
34:50
Speaker 2: And that's such a hard thing, because your mother is somebody who you know.
34:56
Speaker 2: That's again looking at my own kids.
34:58
Speaker 2: I want to be their safe space.
35:00
Speaker 2: I want to always be somebody that I don't care what it is, they can come to me, I will believe in you, I love you, I adore you, I am there, I am your consistent.
35:12
Speaker 2: And so when that piece fell away is when, a lot of honestly, my healing, though, started, and when I was able to really face the facts of what it is and I was actually going to make a video of this, but I might as well talk about it now, what I've been feeling like recently is we have all of these layers that everybody builds, but specifically when you're in these environments, you've built these layers of things of protection, of these beliefs, of these things that you were taught.
35:44
Speaker 2: And so when you go to therapy and you are faced with these facts and you are faced with the truth, you have to rip off that layer, and it is so painful and it's so raw, but then you can rebuild it because it's the same thing.
36:00
Speaker 2: You can now then see it for what it is, know that it's there, validate it, because that's really what you want, is you want somebody to say this happened and your feelings are valid, so you can move to the next point.
36:17
Speaker 2: But you can't do that if you don't see it for what it is.
36:21
Speaker 2: And so that's why I was challenged.
36:23
Speaker 2: People, a lot of people, are like oh, therapy, it is so good at being that mirror, that reflection, to be able to see things from a different perspective, to be able to look at it for exactly the way that it is, and a lot of the ways that I do it is I logically think about things, I'm still at the emotional point.
36:44
Speaker 2: That's going to be a whole other level and I'm able to logically pull away from the situation and see it for what it is, to be able to think about it and acknowledge it.
36:55
Speaker 2: So that way, at least, I'm validating that portion of myself.
36:58
Speaker 2: You mentioned me getting choked up and I think the reason for that again when you were talking about trauma from childhood.
37:05
Speaker 2: When you talk about it, you feel like that child again and so you feel very vulnerable and very childlike and that's what I've been able to again, that logical piece, so you can see why you're reacting this way and understand that's the reason why and it's okay to feel that way.
37:22
Speaker 2: So, while these things are difficult to talk about, I know the necessity of talking about them and the healing that it brings me every time I do tell my story, because it's just again me being able to say my truth and in my words, and that gives me power.
37:41
Speaker 2: So, as much as it's hard and it's challenging inside, it feels really good.
37:48
Speaker 1: Right, a compliment that I want to give you watching you talk and hearing you talk, the fact that you will say something and then validate yourself gives me chills every time, like just a moment ago, when you said and I'll be paraphrasing but when you're talking about feeling these things and you said, but that's okay, of course you're pitching it out to everyone else and validating them, but I feel like you're also validating yourself, and I think that is such a strong thing to do and I feel like you do it so naturally, but it probably took training.
38:27
Speaker 1: You probably had to train yourself to do that, which is a good grooming and training.
38:30
Speaker 1: Right, that's a positive one, but I love that you do that.
38:33
Speaker 1: I've heard you do it throughout our time talking so far, and I love that and I don't want you to ever lose that.
38:42
Speaker 2: Thank you.
38:42
Speaker 2: It does take a long time and it's something that I have to continually work on.
38:48
Speaker 2: But again I'm so grateful that I have gleaned that logical piece because that has helped so much to be able to see things from that logical perspective, because logically then you can say those things were wrong, those feelings were valid, that was okay to feel that way.
39:09
Speaker 2: They shouldn't have been that way.
39:11
Speaker 2: So that's been a very therapeutic way to be able to look at each situation that comes up and take yourself out of it Almost as if you're reading a book or you're watching a movie or something like that, because it just helps you to empathize then and see it as someone else would see it, because a lot of times we can see it differently, because it's your best friend, you would have empathy for them, but sometimes we lose that for ourselves.
39:36
Speaker 2: So it's a nice way to be able to pull that into it, if that makes sense.
39:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all these cliches, right, but they became a cliche for a reason and sometimes you hear them and they don't affect you.
39:47
Speaker 1: And then you may hear it again in your life later on and be like, oh, that's what that means.
39:54
Speaker 1: There's even songs that I've heard that I've lied, but then I'll hear them now and be like, oh my God, because they hit you differently.
40:03
Speaker 1: I jokingly say that even with the golden girls, like sometimes I love the golden girls and when I watch it now I'm like I watched this with my grandmother when I was a kid, but the jokes are just different now.
40:12
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
40:13
Speaker 1: So that's the fun side of it.
40:15
Speaker 1: But the cliche saying of treat yourself the way you would treat others, yeah, that never impacted me very much until I realized, through my recovery and in certain phases of my recovery from my trauma, how ugly I was being to me, that I was victim blaming, that I was being everything that I would never be to someone that I loved.
40:45
Speaker 1: And it's choking me up right now, thinking that I should be my consistent, I should be my, I'm my forever right and I should be my number one supporter.
40:58
Speaker 1: And when I needed me the most, I wasn't there, and those are hard words to say, but I remind myself of that because when I do, I know how it feels to be abandoned.
41:12
Speaker 1: I know how it feels to be put down and neglected, and I don't want to ever make anyone feel that way.
41:19
Speaker 1: Most people will just, get on a regular basis, just a message from me that says I love you, because those make me happy, and so sometimes you might have to just send yourself a text message that says I love you, david, and that should be okay.
41:32
Speaker 1: So I feel like I learned that through therapy and that's what I was taking from what you were saying with the validations You're treating your inner child the way that you would have wanted your mother to treat you, the way that you are now treating your children, and I think it's very important to still nourish that inner child inside of us.
41:56
Speaker 2: Exactly, you're 100% right.
41:58
Speaker 2: And the harder thing is and I have talked about this in various videos that I've put out is, in this religion, when you feel sorry for yourself or you are proud of yourself, all of these things are deemed as evil as of the flesh.
42:19
Speaker 2: So you look at, I feel beautiful today.
42:24
Speaker 2: If you were to say that that's wrong, I am smart.
42:28
Speaker 2: That's wrong because you are nothing without God.
42:34
Speaker 2: You were born and this is the way I was taught.
42:37
Speaker 2: You were born into the world as evil.
42:40
Speaker 2: You were only saved by the grace of God and you were only holy because he works through you.
42:48
Speaker 2: So, coming out of that as an adult and this is what you had.
42:54
Speaker 2: And now, especially if you don't have that belief system anymore, who are you?
43:01
Speaker 2: Who is left?
43:02
Speaker 2: Who is left without all of that?
43:04
Speaker 2: Because you were told that you yourself are nothing.
43:08
Speaker 2: That's what you're left with.
43:10
Speaker 2: And so these are the things that I am processing and trying to work through, because this is what I believed with.
43:18
Speaker 2: Again, there are people like my husband.
43:21
Speaker 2: He would tell you that he didn't believe any of it.
43:24
Speaker 2: He always tried to block the system.
43:26
Speaker 2: He always thought it was a bunch of crap or whatever.
43:28
Speaker 2: I did it, I believed everything, and so it was a part of who I was.
43:35
Speaker 2: And so, minus that, even if I'm not religious anymore, I still feel sinful sometimes.
43:40
Speaker 2: I still feel prideful.
43:43
Speaker 2: I still have a hard time complimenting myself or thinking these things because of that, and so when I say them out loud, it is really hard but so necessary because I'm trying to retrain my brain into actually believing what I'm saying, because there is such a big part of me that was so enveloped in that belief system that it's just a part of who I am and it's almost reprogramming.
44:13
Speaker 2: It is literally reprogramming my brain because it was programmed to believe that I was nothing by myself, that everything that I wanted was sinful and prideful and selfish unless it was of God.
44:28
Speaker 2: So how do I reprogram my brain to believing that I myself am enough, that I myself am a whole person, that I'm beautiful, smart and all of these things that you want to hear, that you were literally told your entire childhood.
44:42
Speaker 2: Those are wrong things to think.
44:43
Speaker 2: So anybody that grew up within this will understand that fight of just.
44:47
Speaker 2: It's a very challenging road and it's not an easy one to look at, but it's very worth it, because if you can.
44:56
Speaker 2: Then you can rewrite your story and I have that actually on my TikTok that we'll talk about later, but it literally says writing my own story, because that's the way I feel.
45:06
Speaker 2: I've journaled my entire life.
45:08
Speaker 2: Everybody told me what I should think, how I should act, what I should do.
45:12
Speaker 2: This is mine now.
45:13
Speaker 2: This is my story, this is the way I want to write it and that's what we're doing now, because now I actually have authority over my own voice to be able to do that.
45:24
Speaker 2: So I'm literally reprogramming the way that I was taught to believe.
45:29
Speaker 1: I like the word reprogramming because when, in the beginning of my therapy, that was a word that really stuck with me that my therapist used because, even though my trauma happened in my adult life, that attack and those actions changed my definition to sex, changed my definition to control and all these different words that I was programmed to think of a certain way and unfortunately, it programmed it to a negative way, to where, even still, I struggle with what the true definition of meaning of sex is because of what happened to me and my journey.
46:10
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm asking this question rhetorically or if you have a response to it or whatever.
46:14
Speaker 1: Either way, it's fine, there's no wrong.
46:18
Speaker 1: I can't, all things be true with religion, like why can't I look and say God made me and I'm beautiful and God made me and provided me with resources and I've used them and I'm smart.
46:33
Speaker 1: God made me and I'm good and I'm strong and I'm powerful?
46:37
Speaker 1: Why?
46:38
Speaker 1: Because I feel like when we're telling a child or people, period, that you can't say you're beautiful, but God created you and God doesn't make ugly, like you're contradicting yourself, buddy.
46:52
Speaker 1: So what is it God does?
46:53
Speaker 1: I can't wrap my mind around that.
46:56
Speaker 2: You're right, and I think a lot of it, though, is too.
46:59
Speaker 2: You have to remember, in these scenarios, it is all about control, and so when you are that way, you don't have power, and so if you don't have power, you don't question, and if you don't question, you don't leave.
47:13
Speaker 2: So that's what it is.
47:15
Speaker 2: And again, I'm not saying that every church that is named this says this, but this they do and this is how they keep you, this is how they make it.
47:26
Speaker 2: Where you don't leave because you have no power, so how are you gonna leave there?
47:33
Speaker 2: You can't, you don't even think about that, because you are nothing, you don't have anything Unless you have God.
47:41
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of that rhetoric is that and you mentioned the word contradiction, and that is a huge thing.
47:47
Speaker 2: So Getting into the way women are.
47:52
Speaker 2: So my pastor's wife would teach Bible studies to the girls and the women.
47:57
Speaker 2: One of the things that I was taught since because I started going to that church at 12, so I was a teenager was that when you got married, if your husband were to cheat on you, it's your fault, because if you aren't doing your makeup every day, if you are not Staying thin, if you are not pleasing him the way that he wants to be pleased.
48:18
Speaker 2: That's you, because a man is carnal and a man can't control himself and a man is very visual.
48:26
Speaker 2: That is your job, and from a teenager, probably the age of 14, those are the kinds of things that I was taught.
48:34
Speaker 2: Is that?
48:35
Speaker 2: This is the funny thing, women you have no power because you were under your husband, but you have to be able to be this sexual whatever for him and have that power and to be able to do those things for him.
48:50
Speaker 2: So it's which one?
48:51
Speaker 2: Is it like we can control a man's thoughts if our shirt is too low or if we wear pants, so we have power or we don't have power.
48:59
Speaker 2: Which one is it?
49:00
Speaker 2: Because it doesn't make sense, and another.
49:02
Speaker 2: Here's a another funny thing it is funny now, but it wasn't at the time Was the pastor son and I were a thing all throughout the time that I was there and we would take these mission trips to Mexico and it was my job when we were walking together and I was told this by his dad, the pastor, that if there was a outfit that wasn't good on a woman or a billboard, I can instruct him to look away from it Because it may constable.
49:31
Speaker 2: So I was instructed To have that power and control to tell him to look away.
49:38
Speaker 2: That was my job as a girl, because a man is carnal and visual and he'll stumble, so it just.
49:46
Speaker 2: It was just this.
49:47
Speaker 2: So like contradicting statements of we have no power but you have so much power that a man can fall and stumble and lust in his mom.
49:57
Speaker 2: It was like it didn't make any sense.
50:00
Speaker 2: Like which one is it?
50:02
Speaker 2: So they would put that on us as girls and I would have that job as a Girl in my house too that when we would watch things on the TV.
50:10
Speaker 2: There's limited things we're allowed to watch.
50:12
Speaker 2: If there was something, I sat by the TV with a pillow that I would cover things if we needed to.
50:18
Speaker 2: I am not kidding you.
50:19
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
50:20
Speaker 2: So it's like women, we are given no power, but we're giving all this Weight of everything that's put on us.
50:30
Speaker 1: It is that's a brilliant way to put it.
50:33
Speaker 2: Yes, our job to keep the men pure.
50:35
Speaker 2: It's our job to dress modestly, because if not, it is our fault that something is happening.
50:41
Speaker 2: So everything is our fault, everything.
50:43
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that's how it goes back to that control of the man.
50:47
Speaker 1: It still doesn't have to have ownership of anything.
50:49
Speaker 1: It's well, you didn't see that billboard where that girl was shown her cleavage, and I looked at it because you didn't tell me to.
50:55
Speaker 1: So all this is your fault and here's the repercussions for you.
51:01
Speaker 2: Yes, a hundred percent damn it.
51:04
Speaker 2: It's crazy.
51:05
Speaker 2: I know like I've never.
51:09
Speaker 1: Asked this question out loud, so allow grace, but I Tried and and I always, I've always been this way, like, I've always given affirmations, just not an always to myself, but I've always just been Nice.
51:25
Speaker 1: I've never known a stranger right.
51:27
Speaker 1: So if I'm I think I've mentioned Walmart three times in this episode so if Walmart wants to be a sponsor, please, but like, if I'm at Walmart and I'm like in the aisle with someone and I'm very selective at the Affirmations I give to a stranger, but if I see a woman, especially if it looks like she's maybe having a bad day, I'll say, oh, I love that shirt on you where that color looks nice, or like your haircut something.
51:50
Speaker 1: But if I said that to a woman who was in One of these organizations, that could probably damage her, couldn't it?
52:06
Speaker 2: it would, because at the end of the day then they're like I did something wrong.
52:08
Speaker 2: I drew attention to myself.
52:11
Speaker 2: I did something wrong, 100%.
52:15
Speaker 2: Right now I would love that.
52:17
Speaker 2: But, kristen, back then, if a man had done that Obviously we're human I'm sure there would have been some other thoughts too, but the main core thought would have been what did I do to make this man stumble by looking at me?
52:35
Speaker 1: that is making me cry, because what if I've Caused somebody to Feel that way when my goal was to make them feel better?
52:49
Speaker 1: And then, like I have that thought of I'm An open gay man, like my mannerism and I don't shy away from that with that, maybe make it better, because she would know that he doesn't mean this Sexually.
53:03
Speaker 1: Like he maybe actually does mean it as a compliment, or maybe they have that other side of brain.
53:09
Speaker 1: That is, this is what I want to hear, but I guess it would depend on what phase they're in with.
53:14
Speaker 1: Am I here just because I have to be right now?
53:17
Speaker 1: But this is.
53:18
Speaker 1: But, oh my god, like I'm going to second guess, trying to make someone feel good.
53:24
Speaker 1: Now, there is no winning in this scenario for anybody, even an outsider.
53:28
Speaker 1: Now, how I would fill my cup is how many people I can make smile.
53:33
Speaker 1: That I don't, that I don't freaking know.
53:35
Speaker 1: And now I am going To guess that a little bit.
53:42
Speaker 1: And what if I miss somebody that truly just needed that affirmation and like it's Damn it.
53:53
Speaker 2: It's a very destructive way of thinking.
53:55
Speaker 2: It just is it again.
53:57
Speaker 2: Being a girl growing up in that, in a woman it's just very different.
54:02
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that men don't experience trauma and they do, and just in a different way.
54:07
Speaker 2: But for women and girls in this religion it's extremely damaging because it's such a hard mindset to get out of.
54:15
Speaker 2: It's very, very, very negative self-talk, very detrimental to who you are as a human being.
54:23
Speaker 2: So rebuilding after that is Very challenging because your brain just goes back to that you're bad, you're ever you're bad, you're sinful, you're evil, like you're told that so much, that's what you go to initially.
54:40
Speaker 2: So it is a very it's a struggle to get out of that, but I will say that you can generally tell.
54:47
Speaker 2: So with independent fundamentalist Baptist Generally it's long skirts, very, extremely modestly dressed.
54:53
Speaker 2: So there are usually some markers, visual markers, to be able to tell.
54:57
Speaker 2: I usually can tell when I see people that are.
55:01
Speaker 1: I'm glad you reminded me of that, because I have always been mindful of that.
55:05
Speaker 1: So I have made sure I've addressed Any kind of conversation with that, so that, okay, that doesn't make me feel better, thank you.
55:14
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, kristen Gosh.
55:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
55:21
Speaker 2: Most definitely, you can usually tell, and they're more conservative than they probably don't want to hear that anyway.
55:26
Speaker 2: So so you're one of those someone's in some snazzy outfit and even something that I'm even though this is modest, it probably it's to attention drawing, so something like this wouldn't have been really good either.
55:40
Speaker 2: You'll, you can tell.
55:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, so after this point, so obviously teenager.
55:45
Speaker 2: I grew up in this church when it was time to become an age where high school I was homeschooled.
55:53
Speaker 2: So the church had a homeschool group, so everybody was homeschooled through the church.
55:58
Speaker 2: No one went to outside school, everybody was homeschooled.
56:02
Speaker 2: That's how they keep you in that very tight-knit rights.
56:06
Speaker 2: Initially, when I had gone, girls were not allowed to go to any colleges, but when my pastor's daughter, who is a year too older than me, she got to that point they had two choices of schools that they could go to.
56:18
Speaker 2: It was either crown college, but you know of, or Pensacola in Florida.
56:23
Speaker 2: My older brother, who's you're gonna have older.
56:25
Speaker 2: He ended up going to crown college and because he was there, that's where I was going to go to.
56:31
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's not accredited.
56:34
Speaker 2: That is a whole other can of worms right there I have a lot of videos talking about actually that, specifically that school.
56:42
Speaker 2: It was actually more strict there than what I was growing up.
56:46
Speaker 2: When I went, the girls had to live on campus.
56:50
Speaker 2: It was a requirement.
56:51
Speaker 2: The boys were allowed to live off campus, in a dorm typically, but on campus you could not leave the premises of the college and the church without five other girls and you had to check in and check out.
57:04
Speaker 2: There was a book in each of our dorms where you had to put where you were gonna go, how long you were gonna be gone, and then you had to check back in to the book.
57:12
Speaker 2: You were only allowed to work at certain places, like jobs there.
57:17
Speaker 2: You couldn't just get a job somewhere.
57:18
Speaker 2: They were approved places that girls specifically could work.
57:22
Speaker 2: Obviously, the dress code was all floor-length skirts who had to wear hoes, which, oh my gosh, whoever invented those is awful Then, oh, here's a funny one for you the pastor.
57:33
Speaker 2: So this is where the control comes in, because this has nothing to do with Bible.
57:36
Speaker 2: He didn't like the way the shoes, ones that didn't have a back flip flop like that sound that was in the rulebook.
57:45
Speaker 2: Because of that, you are not allowed to wear backless shoes, because the pastor did not like the sound that it made.
57:51
Speaker 2: But then obviously so.
57:57
Speaker 2: Here's my really good part of the story, david.
57:59
Speaker 2: So I go to college.
58:02
Speaker 2: Obviously it's very restrictive.
58:04
Speaker 2: However, it's away from home, I have no interest in anything.
58:07
Speaker 2: It's a very long story about what happened with the pastor son and all of that, but that was no longer and and I just was excited to just do something different, because I'm a very adventurous person and so I get bored very easily, so I was really excited to just do something new.
58:24
Speaker 2: Day three we took a activity trip to the Ripley's aquarium and I was at something reading about whatever it was, and I Look across the way and there were a lot of guys there and they were trying to talk to me and I was like whatever, I talked to everybody.
58:38
Speaker 2: I look across the way and there was one specific guy who looked up at me and I gave him a really big smile and he walks over and he'll tell you now that he would have never approached me had I not smiled at him, because he said he was so intimidated by me.
58:51
Speaker 2: But he was like your tall, dark and handsome dark hair, dark eyes.
58:57
Speaker 2: We Literally instantly connected.
59:00
Speaker 2: We spent the rest of the activity talking the entire time.
59:04
Speaker 2: It was as if I was meeting someone I had known my whole life but I never knew and it was much as cliche as it sounds, it truly was, and both of us will still say this that it was love at first sight.
59:18
Speaker 2: We became like the it's couple on campus.
59:21
Speaker 2: Everybody knew that we were like badly in love with each other.
59:26
Speaker 2: Now, mind you, you are not allowed to date in this religion.
59:30
Speaker 2: It's courting.
59:31
Speaker 2: And and the crazy part about this too, is that no interracial dating was allowed Unless it was approved by both sets parents.
59:40
Speaker 2: And that was still going on when I was there, which is crazy to think about now and from what I've heard, I think it still is that way.
59:48
Speaker 2: So you had to have permission and for courting you have to go off with people.
59:54
Speaker 2: So we actually never dated at all during college.
59:58
Speaker 2: But there was at one point where we were walking and we were seen by ourselves, even though we're just walking and You're watched constantly on these campuses.
1:00:07
Speaker 2: So someone ran up to us and said tomorrow morning I had to meet with the Dean of Women and I was pulled into the Dean of Women's office and he was pulled into the Dean of Men saying why were you walking alone?
1:00:17
Speaker 2: And the only reason why we didn't get in trouble is because apparently I had a really good reputation and so they believed me.
1:00:24
Speaker 2: But just from walking by ourselves.
1:00:27
Speaker 2: And then here's another good one for you.
1:00:28
Speaker 2: We were sitting in church.
1:00:30
Speaker 2: Okay, I Again believing this wholeheartedly.
1:00:34
Speaker 2: I was very strict with him and he'll tell you that I was a very hard catch.
1:00:38
Speaker 2: We didn't even if you have hairs.
1:00:46
Speaker 2: I didn't even let him sit in the next chair.
1:00:48
Speaker 2: I mean sit a chair in between us and then we're in church.
1:00:51
Speaker 2: I put Bibles in between us.
1:00:53
Speaker 2: Apparently, that wasn't good enough.
1:00:55
Speaker 2: One of the pastors came up to me afterwards and said no, I Saw you and a neck, and we can keep that name in, since that's my husband.
1:01:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't want your reputation to be marred.
1:01:08
Speaker 2: I really have to be aware of people are looking at you.
1:01:13
Speaker 2: And so it was this huge thing.
1:01:15
Speaker 2: We were sitting in church, david, what are you going to do in church?
1:01:20
Speaker 2: Long story short, he ended up having to go back home.
1:01:23
Speaker 2: This was only year one.
1:01:24
Speaker 2: We only were there.
1:01:24
Speaker 2: I only lasted a year.
1:01:25
Speaker 2: He only lasted a semester one.
1:01:27
Speaker 2: Because it's so expensive, they don't have government aid because they're not accredited.
1:01:32
Speaker 2: The food was awful so I was like not eating anything.
1:01:36
Speaker 2: I was getting sick all of the time because it was just a very repressive Impressive, even though I had Nick and everything and he would buy new food off campus with the little money he had because he wanted me to eat something.
1:01:47
Speaker 2: And he went back up to Michigan where he was and then I ended up getting pneumonia towards the end of that first semester and went back home and we still really wanted to be together.
1:01:58
Speaker 2: Obviously his family knew about me because I took a trip there that first year.
1:02:05
Speaker 2: It was actually around my birthday.
1:02:07
Speaker 2: His cousin passed away and I wanted to be there and so I asked my parents if I could go when I stay with his family.
1:02:13
Speaker 2: Now his family was even more strict than I was.
1:02:18
Speaker 2: Right I had, my skirts were just below my knee, I wore a little bit of makeup, so I was worldly to them and I think they could tell that, even though I was taught to be submissive, I was just a very outgoing, bubbly kind of person.
1:02:36
Speaker 2: But this was the first funeral that I had gone to for a child since my brothers and it was the first time away from home.
1:02:44
Speaker 2: I was a mess, so I was not myself.
1:02:47
Speaker 2: I was very withdrawn.
1:02:50
Speaker 2: I had a really hard time opening up because I was just so overwhelmed by all my feelings and so his parents hated me from the very beginning.
1:02:59
Speaker 2: It was the very first time that I had been like disliked by someone.
1:03:03
Speaker 2: I don't like to ruffle feathers, I'm just not that type of a person.
1:03:06
Speaker 2: I was always known as very joyful and all these other things.
1:03:08
Speaker 2: So to have somebody without even really knowing me and it was only because I was considered worldly and I think again they could tell that I wasn't probably very submissive.
1:03:19
Speaker 2: They didn't like me and so they didn't approve.
1:03:24
Speaker 2: And his dad actually called me at one point to talk me out of being with him.
1:03:29
Speaker 2: He told me all kinds of very stupid stories from his childhood.
1:03:35
Speaker 2: This goes to what his dad is like Like he stole or he ate all of the popsicles out of the freezer and hid them and refused to tell the truth.
1:03:45
Speaker 2: His dad was telling me stories like this, saying that he's a liar and he's all these other things, because they didn't want us to be together.
1:03:53
Speaker 2: And being the way that I was, I initially bought it into a little bit of what he was saying because he was a man in this religion.
1:04:01
Speaker 2: I was bred to believe that, and so I called Nick and I was like maybe it's not the best thing.
1:04:07
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it was.
1:04:08
Speaker 2: He was a.
1:04:09
Speaker 2: I had never seen him cry before.
1:04:11
Speaker 2: It was a couple of days like this and then I was like, okay, I can't do this Again.
1:04:14
Speaker 2: It's that I'm being brainwashed.
1:04:16
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think for myself, but it's so hard to think for myself.
1:04:20
Speaker 2: So ultimately he asked his parents if he could come to Tennessee where I was to be able to court and all that stuff.
1:04:27
Speaker 2: They said no.
1:04:28
Speaker 2: I knew at that point that we weren't going to be together unless someone did something.
1:04:33
Speaker 2: So obviously I did something.
1:04:37
Speaker 1: There it is.
1:04:38
Speaker 1: I was waiting for it.
1:04:41
Speaker 2: So the very first time I left, I actually ran away and I took my family's car and I took it to the airport and I left it in the parking lot and I had left a note at home.
1:04:52
Speaker 2: I took a Greyhound bus up to my aunt who lives, or who lived, in Southern Michigan.
1:05:00
Speaker 2: She was a distant relative, not in that faith.
1:05:02
Speaker 2: I told her what was happening and I said, hey, I really need a place to land, so they let me come up there.
1:05:08
Speaker 2: My family found the note.
1:05:10
Speaker 2: They sent my dad and my brother.
1:05:12
Speaker 2: They came up to get me, my aunt and uncle, I think.
1:05:17
Speaker 2: They didn't know what to do because this was just a very extreme situation like here I'm escaping.
1:05:21
Speaker 2: They don't know what to do with me.
1:05:23
Speaker 2: My parents are making me feel guilty again and there's that piece that's very challenging to leave because I was being told again I'm going to the devil.
1:05:33
Speaker 2: I am being evil right now and I didn't wanna cause problems because, again, I'm just not one of those people.
1:05:38
Speaker 2: I hate to cause pain to people.
1:05:40
Speaker 2: So I went back and when I went back the pastor basically told me that if I went with Nick, that I was going to be going to the devil.
1:05:49
Speaker 2: That's literally what the equivalent was and I journaled this.
1:05:53
Speaker 2: I did journal.
1:05:54
Speaker 2: So I have all of this in writing and I journaled that.
1:05:57
Speaker 2: I got right with God and we're just gonna wait and we're gonna try to do things the right way, the way they want us to do.
1:06:04
Speaker 2: The very next day I wrote that if I didn't get out now, I was never going to leave.
1:06:11
Speaker 2: It was never gonna happen.
1:06:13
Speaker 2: And I made in that moment I decided this isn't happening, I am not doing this again.
1:06:19
Speaker 2: And I went to my mom and I said I want to be with him, I love him, we're 19th time and I don't have any money because I'm a girl.
1:06:28
Speaker 2: So I would like to be able to stay at home and get a job and earn some money before I leave, because I have nothing.
1:06:33
Speaker 2: I didn't have a car or anything because girls weren't allowed to.
1:06:36
Speaker 2: And she said I had to meet with the pastor.
1:06:38
Speaker 2: I met with the pastor and I'll never forget this moment for the rest of my life.
1:06:43
Speaker 2: It was my mom and the pastor and me and we were at a Panera, like a side table, and I told him that this is what I wanted and he looked away from me.
1:06:51
Speaker 2: He looked at my mother and said she is a poison to your family, she needs to leave.
1:06:56
Speaker 2: And they kicked me out.
1:06:59
Speaker 2: So my aunt bought me another bus ticket and I packed a bag and before then I had people being sent to my room.
1:07:08
Speaker 2: When I was like in bed praying over me, I was made to meet with the pastor's wife, who I don't even remember a lot of that conversation so I gather it probably wasn't very good, because I've tried and I can't remember what the conversation was about.
1:07:23
Speaker 2: But I was like being told by the people and being prayed over by the people that why are you doing this, whatever?
1:07:30
Speaker 2: Because again, I was that perfect child, why are you doing this?
1:07:33
Speaker 2: And I left with one bag the second time and Nick took a little bit longer to leave because his parents he attempted at one point and they like blocked the driveway and wouldn't let him leave and but then his dad called me and I used Bible verses to defend myself because I'm spunky like that and again I don't remember exactly what I used, but he did not like that Cause.
1:08:00
Speaker 2: Again, women are not supposed to be like that.
1:08:02
Speaker 2: So he hangs up the phone with me, he calls Nick and he goes.
1:08:05
Speaker 2: I just got off the phone with your blonde bombshell, you can get out too, so he's.
1:08:12
Speaker 2: So he left.
1:08:14
Speaker 2: He was excited cause he was like this is my out.
1:08:16
Speaker 2: So he did the same thing.
1:08:17
Speaker 2: He had a car, cause he was a boy.
1:08:19
Speaker 2: So he packed his bags and he came to my aunts and the relatives that we had there.
1:08:24
Speaker 2: Both their families knew we were gonna get married because in the way we grew up he probably wouldn't have, he probably would have been okay living together the way I believed.
1:08:32
Speaker 2: Still, I didn't believe that was right.
1:08:34
Speaker 2: So I was like no, we have to be married.
1:08:37
Speaker 2: So we, my relatives, helped us, and this was outside of Ohio, is at the courthouse, but it was under these beautiful pink flower trees.
1:08:45
Speaker 2: We got married and now, almost 19 years later, here we are.
1:08:50
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we both got excommunicated from both of our churches.
1:08:54
Speaker 2: I got excommunicated shortly after I left, cause my best friend at the time called me to find out what was going on and I said hey, look, this is what I'm doing, but I'm not trying to.
1:09:04
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to create problems, I'm not trying to tell anybody else to leave a church.
1:09:08
Speaker 2: I'm like I'm not trying to do anything, I just want to be with this person.
1:09:11
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to do anything else.
1:09:13
Speaker 2: This is all I'm trying to do.
1:09:15
Speaker 2: And because of that one phone call, I was then being said to them trying to get her out of the faith.
1:09:21
Speaker 2: So then my whole family stopped talking to me, cause the pastor told them to again that control and my best friend couldn't talk to me either, cause again, we're now excommunicated and if you talk to an excommunicated person, you could be excommunicated as well.
1:09:35
Speaker 2: And the same thing with his family cause his dad's pastor.
1:09:38
Speaker 2: But they were like, oh, you'll never make it, you're going to be divorced within a matter of months.
1:09:42
Speaker 2: And we made it a running joke.
1:09:44
Speaker 2: I wanted to send them a card every year on our anniversary to be like when we're here.
1:09:48
Speaker 2: I didn't, but I wanted to.
1:09:52
Speaker 2: I love that, yeah, but those unfortunately for us, his family did everything that they could.
1:10:00
Speaker 2: They didn't just let go and let them to their own devices.
1:10:04
Speaker 2: They wrote a book of anything that they thought we had done wrong in our lives and sent it to all of our family members, including my family.
1:10:12
Speaker 2: So here we are, young couple.
1:10:14
Speaker 2: We were isolated from the world.
1:10:16
Speaker 2: We don't know anything about jobs and taxes and we know nothing, nothing.
1:10:21
Speaker 2: Okay, we had those few relatives.
1:10:24
Speaker 2: We were able to find jobs, obviously, but here we have his family literally trying to break us down further when we're just trying to hang on as two young people in a world that wasn't meant for us because we weren't raised in it.
1:10:38
Speaker 2: So we struggled, obviously for a really long time with financially and all of those things.
1:10:44
Speaker 2: But eventually I got into the hospitality industry, ended up being a director in the hospitality industry and was the breadwinner for a while because my husband he went back to school.
1:10:54
Speaker 2: After two years of community he got a full ride at UNC Chapel Hill, which is a very prestigious school, and he got into a professional school there too, which was like transfer students to something that are like less than 3%.
1:11:07
Speaker 2: So it was a huge accomplishment for him.
1:11:10
Speaker 2: So he's now in a really good job and now I'm a say-home mom for a little bit, which is nice.
1:11:15
Speaker 2: So obviously there's a lot of stuff in between that.
1:11:18
Speaker 2: But I can say this that one I've never regretted my decision that day that I made in that moment, not even once.
1:11:26
Speaker 2: There has literally never been even a millisecond.
1:11:29
Speaker 2: I've regretted so many things in my life.
1:11:31
Speaker 2: That has never been one of them, because I then was able to take control of what I wanted to do for the very first time in my life.
1:11:43
Speaker 2: And Nick and I as much as it's so hard both having these experiences because we both now unfortunately have families that we don't communicate with because they're not healthy people, so we're pretty isolated with that, we have been there for each other and he has helped me grow, I have helped him grow.
1:12:03
Speaker 2: He is a really great person when you need, he's very logical where I'm the emotional.
1:12:10
Speaker 2: So when I need that logical piece, I'm like okay, you need to tell me how it is, because right now I'm all in the feels.
1:12:18
Speaker 2: Like just logically.
1:12:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never regretted that decision because, at the end of the day, it gave me my life now, my beautiful children that I have, and I don't regret this life that I have, so I'm grateful that I had some kind of spunk in there.
1:12:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, though they tried to take all of that away from me, it was there all along, I just needed to find it.
1:12:42
Speaker 1: Wow, what a roller coaster.
1:12:44
Speaker 1: But love wins, and that's what I'm taking away from this.
1:12:49
Speaker 1: Where are you with the figure skating dream?
1:12:55
Speaker 1: Is that a dream that's completely closed off now?
1:12:58
Speaker 1: Is that, and how do you feel about that?
1:13:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have very mixed feelings with that whole subject.
1:13:05
Speaker 2: I had gone skating a couple of times when my son was younger, my brother I have communication with one of my brothers.
1:13:14
Speaker 2: He's four years younger than me.
1:13:15
Speaker 2: He actually lives locally here, only like 20 minutes away.
1:13:17
Speaker 2: He moved.
1:13:18
Speaker 2: We moved to this area so we could live close together.
1:13:21
Speaker 2: He likes to skate just for fun, so he made me do it back then.
1:13:27
Speaker 2: What's hard for me is that I was at a very high level, but I was child, so obviously my body is different, everything is different.
1:13:35
Speaker 2: I haven't done it in so long and so one I have a hard time thinking of going back to square one.
1:13:42
Speaker 2: I know it's funny because I can do all of the moves on the floor still to this day.
1:13:47
Speaker 2: I still remember my solos and things of my routines to this day, which is crazy, so I can do it on the floor.
1:13:52
Speaker 2: So I have a hard time with that because I'm like it's just it's so difficult to see that now I'm not where I wanted to be.
1:14:03
Speaker 2: Is that makes sense?
1:14:03
Speaker 2: But also because it does have just so much pain associated with it.
1:14:09
Speaker 2: But I do believe, and I will never 100% close something like that because life again is very long and I have surprised myself.
1:14:19
Speaker 2: So I would not be surprised if someday I did it for enjoyment and maybe taught like little kids someday.
1:14:26
Speaker 2: That would bring me a lot of joy.
1:14:29
Speaker 2: So I can see in my future as my kids get older and I have more time on my hands doing some of those things that I really loved.
1:14:38
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't say that the door is closed completely.
1:14:42
Speaker 1: I have found just in my journey of healing that not everything has to be right now, but that has to be your decision.
1:14:51
Speaker 1: You said I don't like to use the word never, because that's indefinite and never is a long time, and so the fact that you're open minded to those things, I think is just really cool.
1:15:02
Speaker 2: I'm so far in the way that I think and view the world, my worldviews, the way I view humanity in general.
1:15:09
Speaker 2: It is evolving and I have loved the journey because, again, I'm one of those people I like to know how things work.
1:15:18
Speaker 2: I want to know the details, and so I deconstruct and I learn the things that I wasn't taught, and so the growing process is that part's fun.
1:15:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love for you to tell us how this affects you as a parent and how this has helped mold you into the mother that you are today.
1:15:42
Speaker 2: So really good question and it's very multifaceted.
1:15:45
Speaker 2: There is your negative or hard piece of where you don't have that role model, right, you don't have.
1:15:56
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to be like this, I want to be the way my parents were and do all of these things, and the flip side of that is positive right, because you don't want to emulate them.
1:16:08
Speaker 2: So therefore, you do the opposite of that.
1:16:11
Speaker 2: But I think the other thing and the piece of that is part of the reason why I journaled throughout my entire life and I actually had this thought back then, which is really funny, that I thought this way as a child.
1:16:22
Speaker 2: I felt so misunderstood as a child that I said that I wanted to write this so one day, when I have kids, that one I can reflect by how I felt, but I can show them that I felt the same way they did, because I wanted to be able to connect to my kids and I have not had them read it yet, but I have a 14-year-old, so he's very close to that and he knows a lot of my story, because my goal as a parent is to again just be that constant, to be that person that they know my love will never change.
1:17:01
Speaker 2: You can say you hate me, you can do whatever.
1:17:05
Speaker 2: It is good or bad, it will never change because I'm your mother and I will always be there for you and I am parenting them the way I wish and that I parent my inner child in the way that I would have wanted to be talked to.
1:17:25
Speaker 2: Some of it is hard because we do have.
1:17:28
Speaker 2: We grew up around these violent, explosive situations right.
1:17:33
Speaker 2: So part of it is making sure that you are healing, so that way you're not giving them those scars that you had.
1:17:41
Speaker 2: So it's work.
1:17:42
Speaker 2: It's taking the time for yourself to grow and to heal, so that way you stop it.
1:17:50
Speaker 2: And my goal is to be the generation that it ends and that my children have a new beginning, so that when they have kids, they have grandparents and they have grandparents that support their parents 1,000% and believe in them 1,000%.
1:18:09
Speaker 2: That's my goal is to just start this new chapter of my family tree and allow it to heal and to grow the way that it should have grown with me.
1:18:22
Speaker 1: Have I mentioned that I'm obsessed with you and that I could listen to you talk all day long and you're just so brilliantly spoken?
1:18:34
Speaker 1: I wanna hear about what you have planned for, how you're gonna continue to take control and what you're doing with your boys now.
1:18:45
Speaker 2: Absolutely so.
1:18:46
Speaker 2: I'm on TikTok it's KristenTalks is what you will find me at Kristen and then literally the word talks and it became my journal, my space to be able to just speak what I'm going through, I put down there when I'm having a bad day and I'm working through a specific situation.
1:19:05
Speaker 2: I talk about that on there because I feel it is so important.
1:19:10
Speaker 2: A lot of the things that I talk about I haven't heard, and I know if I haven't heard it, others haven't heard it.
1:19:15
Speaker 2: And it's so important to hear that from others because when you hear that, it validates the way that you're feeling.
1:19:22
Speaker 2: So then maybe you can then put into words what you're feeling too, and then gives you the power and my goal was one to allow myself a safe space to be able to speak, but also to allow and to empower other people to find their safe spaces and speak as well.
1:19:39
Speaker 2: So both things are very important to me.
1:19:41
Speaker 2: I also have just started talking to someone about writing my own book, about my whole story.
1:19:46
Speaker 2: There are so many stories in between the things that we talked about today.
1:19:50
Speaker 2: I could talk to you probably for days.
1:19:52
Speaker 2: So that is in the works.
1:19:54
Speaker 2: Obviously, it will be a process when you are beginning a memoir and it's of yourself and it's of things that are traumatic, it's super important to do that as you're healing.
1:20:04
Speaker 2: So I'm going to allow myself the space and the time that it needs and that it's worthy of to be able to do this process so when I put it out, I can be proud of the fact that this is my voice that's talking and it's my truth and that's what matters.
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Speaker 2: I appreciate you allowing me the safe space to be able to just speak my truth because, as any survivor, that's what you want is just to have a safe space to speak your truth.
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Speaker 1: I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today.
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Speaker 1: Join us next week as we dive into the healing process and share more incredible stories of triumph and resilience 顧 eyeliner.