Latest / The Grove Church / Why Should We Study Revelation? Pt. 1

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Why Should We Study Revelation? Pt. 1 · The Grove Church

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The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do
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we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the
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Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There
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are really big, deep questions that we ask each
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other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves.
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And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in
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our understanding of who God is, his word and the way that
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he's called us to live. Hey,
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everyone. Thank you for joining us, the cultivate podcast.
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I am Charlie lead pastor at the Grove Church and we have
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with us Abigail Boone. What's
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up? Expert producer. Hey. Queen of asking
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questions. Indeed. The queen of curiosity
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and thoughtfulness and just deep questions. Thank you. So you
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always always know that it's gonna be a good episode It's
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curiosity. When you're sitting right there. Digs deep. No. No. I mean, I'm not no.
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That's no shot at Mark. So I just I just know it's gonna be a
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good episode because you're here. How are you doing? I'm I'm great. I'm glad to
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be here. Good. Good. So as
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you know and you know maybe that we have been
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covering a lot of different topics over the course of the last
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several weeks and kind of birthed out of a summer
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seminar class that we did where we had different speakers come
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in. Also known as SummerSlam. Hey, yo. That's
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right. That's what I like. You like you prefer SummerSlam?
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This sounds like we're doing, like, WrestleMania. If I called it SummerSlam, would
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you have made a wrestling logo for it? Absolutely. Yes.
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Put that down for next year. Put that in your Monday book or whatever it
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is you've done. And so I was
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out of town for a couple of them, and I spoke at a couple of
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them. You you make the most of them, all of them? Yes. Okay. Other
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than the one about how to read the Bible or, like, tips on that, but
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all the rest of them, they're awesome. Yeah. It it was a really it was
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a really cool really cool deal. And so if I was the
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speaker, you've been interviewing me and other speakers, I interviewed
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them to kinda just get some of that information out. And so the last
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topic that we did was? Revelation. Revelation.
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You said it singular. I did. I did that yesterday. What's
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that? Wednesday. Wednesday. Wednesday.
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Just one revelation. One revel just one long revelation. Right.
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Right. Not a series of revelations. Unlike the Psalms
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Right. Which are a collection of Psalms. Mhmm. And But each
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individual chapter is a Psalm. Is a Psalm. Right.
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And these are the acts, plural, of Of the apostles. Of
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the apostles. Not the one act. But one revelation
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of John. Right. Yes. Okay. John. John. Yep.
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Oh, we're already learning something. No. Is it the John? The
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John. Well, there's 3 Johns. 1st and second and third John.
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Is it that guy? That's three letters, but by the same John.
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1st John, 2nd John, 3rd John is not a reference to the
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John, but the Oh. The the letter
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itself. Okay. The first letter of John, the second letter of John is
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3rd John's 3rd letter, 1st John, 3rd John. Okay. But All the same
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guy. Can you imagine? But what's your name to the John? I'm 3rd
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John. He must say come in late. Just one John,
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one John who wrote the gospel of John, one John who wrote those three
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letters, and one John that wrote the book of Revelation,
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singular. Okay. Same same guy, the apostle alive.
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The apostle, also referred to by himself
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in the gospel of John as the disciple that Jesus loved. That's
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Which that's that's something else. I'm gonna start saying
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that I am the staff member that Charlie loves. No. I love
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it. I love it. I love it. Test that out at staff meeting, and let
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me know how let me know how that goes. Mhmm.
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Yeah. So the questions about
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the book of Revelation and do you remember specifically what the what
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the big picture question was? Why should we
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study it? Yeah. Bingo. Something like that. I'm
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good. Right? And so I remember the in
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the series that we did with Mark that,
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his question was, how do I interact with people of other religions? Right. And
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then he just didn't answer it. And it took us 4 I feel like it
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took us 4 episodes. To kind of kinda get a
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tryna get an answer. So are you gonna answer?
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Well, you're the asking the questions. I'm trying to transition to you to ask us.
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So I'll answer whatever question you I'll answer whatever question you ask.
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Okay. And so we'll nail down why should you send this
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book. Okay. Alright. And so the thing that
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I said then, which I'll say now because it's in the Bible? Yeah. I mean,
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at at its simplest, we could have a 5 second answer to that question,
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which is I mean, it's it's in there. Right. I mean
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Yeah. So there's that.
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But I'm guessing that most people mean something different than that. Have
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you ever asked that question? Ever read have you ever read or studied
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Revelation? I think I started
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it once k. And I didn't make it all all the way
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through because it kind of reminded me of Hebrews.
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Okay. This is just, like, kinda going over my head I'm not I'm not tracking
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what you there are way too many metaphors and illustrations here. Yes. Yes. I
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don't know who Melchizedek is in Hebrews, and I don't know what this dragon is
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about here in Revelation. And I don't know what this is about my personality, but
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it was like, you know what? That's happening in the future. May not be there.
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Right. And I think that is kind of part of the heart behind the
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question. Mhmm. I read this, and I'm just confused.
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Mhmm. It doesn't seem to be teaching me anything about the
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way that I should live life. And I think for most of us, that
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is the practical real reason why we study the
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Bible. Mhmm. I like I you know, what kind
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of person should I be? Right. What application can I Yeah? Or
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work from this. What is this going to tell me about who God is? Like,
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so I want it to lead me to some sort of worship or deeper
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knowledge of God, or I want it to
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help me understand how to be a better person, how to
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live more the live the Christian life in a better way.
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This doesn't seem to be doing Right. Either of those things.
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It's not a it's not a it's not a story where I'm just, oh, it's
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a really interesting story. It doesn't feel like that either.
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Right. Feels really weird, metaphorical,
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futuristic, a little bit scary, a lot hard
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to understand. Mhmm. So hard pass. Right. Yeah.
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Is that is that kind of is that kind of how you feel about it?
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Oh, definitely. Because I definitely put I don't know if this would
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apply to the whole entire Bible, but I've heard before that
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you can ask is this prescriptive or descriptive
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about different texts in the Bible. And I feel like I get to that. And
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it's like, this is just a really crazy story. Right. And I don't know
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what category to put any of those in. Right.
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And so, yeah, it's definitely just, kinda seems like a
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curve ball that you get to at the very end of the bible, and it's
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like, well, I read the rest. So this
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particular genre in the Bible is referred to as
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apocalyptic Mhmm. Literature.
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And Revelation is the only book that pretty much in its entirety
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is apocalyptic, but there are some sections of Matthew
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Okay. Where Jesus talks like this. And there's some
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significant portions of the book of Daniel that are like this Okay.
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That would be considered they have apocalyptic sections to them, where there's just
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a lot of talk about what the end of the world
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is going to be like. Okay. So it means literally what I'm thinking. Yeah. Like,
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the apocalypse. Yes. End of the world. The world.
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Yes. And so apocalyptic literature
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It's a hard word to say. Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic. Yeah. You just wanna make
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sure, you know especially for a southerner who is not
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accustomed to pronouncing all of the consonants
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within a word. Right. Yeah. Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic.
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Okay. Get rid of the a. It's apocalyptic literature.
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Yeah. Exactly. But if you're gonna say it, you gotta make sure you get all
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the all the word apocalyptic literature.
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Yeah. So it has it has this, you know,
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descriptive, prophetic nature about what the end of the world is going to
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be like. So Revelation is a lot of it, but it's not the only place.
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Again, Matthew and Daniel both have some of that. And so if it was
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important enough for Jesus to talk about while he was
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here Mhmm. If it was then important enough to
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give John this kind of prophetic revelation to where he
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saw all this and tried to describe it and you know, as
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writing it down a revelation, it seems like it does have it has a bit
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of bit of weight to it. Okay. I don't think I've ever heard it described
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as prophetic. I kinda put that in the category of the old
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testament. But what does the word prophetic mean?
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It's announcing something that's coming? Okay.
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That makes sense. I just never put that in the New Testament. Right. Well, I
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mean so, yes, that's what apocalyptic would be is if we believe
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that it is true, it is a prophetic description Mhmm. Of what the end of
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the world is going to be like. Okay. And for some and for and for
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reasons, you know, obviously, Jesus thought it was important.
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God thought it was important to mention some in the old testament.
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Jesus was here to do this thing with John,
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and I think it is the thing that, and this may be something you don't
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connect with, but I think it is a thing that a lot of people feel
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a lot of anxiety about. Right. Like, how how how does all
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of this end? I mean, the 2 big, you know, you know,
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the the 3 big questions I really feel like that people
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ask just big picture about life, where did we come
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from? Mhmm. What is life supposed to be about? And how does it end?
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Yeah. Do you feel like you hear anxiety
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because it's confusing or because it sounds scary?
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Or both. So let's just imagine a world where
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Jesus is around, and their book of Revelation doesn't exist
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yet, and Jesus
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is talking to he's he's bringing it up willingly.
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Right. The people aren't coming up to him being like, so How's the
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world gonna end? Tell us about the apocalypse. What's that all about?
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Right. That seems kinda big. He is willingly choosing
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to bring this up. And so if you think about the crowd
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that he's talking to, you're, by and large, you're talking to
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a hopeless group of people. Right. Poor,
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disenfranchised, no power, no real
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hope in this world. And I think there is a
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desire on Jesus' part to kind of cast hope
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Mhmm. That even though this world may be bad,
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and it and it may feel like it's only getting worse. And that's what a
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lot of the descriptors of it are, for good or for bad. A lot of
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the descriptors are, you may think the world is bad, but you understand
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that is that is true. And it's and it's
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and it's only gonna get worse. Right. But I
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think even in that, there's a bit of hope in
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that as you see the world getting worse,
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take heart, take a little courage because
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God God knew this. This isn't happening outside of God's control.
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God's not up in heaven spinning around in a circle believing going
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shoot. Oh, man. Someone what happened? What would happen to think this is right? I
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mean, this That would be the true scariness, I feel like. Right. And so and
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so for Jesus to say, this is coming. We know that
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it's coming. God has his hands on it.
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You can take some you can take some hope in that. It's still
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not like, oh, I mean, I know for sure something bad's gonna
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happen. I feel some comfort from that. That sounds weird. But
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to know that God is aware and is
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kind of guarding and protecting his people in that time, that you can take
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some comfort. If I'm if if a bad thing is definitely come
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coming, I can take some comfort in knowing that God is in it.
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Right. And so I think that is a part of it. And then, also,
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as the more you describe that the world is temporary
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and is ultimately going to end, the
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more hope points towards but there is a
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there is another place that God is preparing. Right. But that seems
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like the ultimate hope that Right. I don't know that,
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atheist or maybe every worldview assumes that the world is
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going to end. I don't know if there's a worldview that thinks we're just gonna
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continue forever. Yeah. I I But it is a hope that
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this is bad, but there is something else. Right. Yeah. So I've I've
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I I trust that God is in the in the calamity that is to
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come, and I trust that God has a
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a a better future for me. Yeah. And so
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you put a a small, even if it's a vague road
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map together, then I can know what to expect. And then
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as those things start to happen, I can be I I can even have more
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confidence that that God is in control. Oh,
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this is unfolding just the way Jesus said that it would, and I can take
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a measure of comfort in that. You know, sometimes when people
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experience things and they're like, that's just like what it says in
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the Bible, and they start to panic about it. And I'm, like, isn't that the
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opposite reaction we're supposed to have? Like, all that terrible thing happened,
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it was predicted in Revelation.
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God God got proven right again, which is good. Mhmm. And
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this is unfolding the way that he said. And so I can actually
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trust. I can trust not only in god, but I can also trust in
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the road map Because I think the panic that some people
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feel as things start to feel more apocalyptic,
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the opposite of that is what we're supposed to. Right. God God's God's
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got this. He saw this coming. He told me to expect it.
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And now that it's happened, I'm like, I don't like it, but I trust
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God. And I think there's also a sense too this is
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something that Jesus said, hey. There's gonna be people
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that are gonna say that they're me come back again.
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And there's gonna be people that, hey. The hey. Messiah is over there. The Christ
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is over there. It's like, when they say that, don't listen. Right. Paul says the
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same sorts of things. He's like, you've heard about antichrist, that antichrist
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is coming. Actually, a lot of antichrists are coming. Like, but but, hey. But
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this, some of you are afraid that the day of the lord has come and
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you missed it. Some of you don't even know what the day of the lord
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is, and so Paul's just kinda like, listen. Here's here are kind
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of the the things that you can know, and I say this. That's what
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Jesus says, what Paul says. I'm saying all this so you don't get deceived.
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Right. Because I think one of the things that I feel like a lot of
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people who try to play gotcha with Christians will
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say, you know, Jesus was a a a poor guy,
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lived in the Middle East, and, you know, was rejected by
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the power structures of the times. Like, man, if Jesus came back today, Christians
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wouldn't even recognize him. And, like, and I okay.
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Point taken point taken that a lot of the church is
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hostile towards people from that part of the world Mhmm. And can be
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and and not be as caring and compassionate towards poor and
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people who are experiencing homelessness. We can be like so
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I that that point is taken. The point that I do not
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take is that Jesus is gonna get born as a baby
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again, and we've gotta work really hard to make sure we recognize him.
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Right. Plus he made it very clear. Hey. Hey.
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I'm going to return in the way that I leave, which was
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kind of this big moment, which he was kind of carried into
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the into the sky. You won't be able to. And he also said that and
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when it happens, it will be a worldwide event. Right.
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And so he doesn't want us to get There's not gonna
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be like, you missed it. Right. Yeah. Like,
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well, some that person says they're Jesus. Are they? If you don't don't
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they said there's gonna be a lot of people that are claiming that. It's gonna
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be undeniable. You're not gonna be like, okay. Well, that's a lot of angels
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in the sky, and that was really loud, and it's kinda scary.
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And everybody all over the world is seeing all of this all at once.
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Mhmm. Well, and it's also
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if we look at the rest of the Bible, God's not typically a God of
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confusion. Right. He's I mean, maybe there's
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some mystery. I mean, that's in the Yeah. That can be Confusion and
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mystery of different things. Yeah. But, yeah, he's not gonna
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intentionally try and dupe us. He has yet to take that strategy, so
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it'd be crazy if he took that strategy toward the end of the
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world. And and and when people were confused
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about whether or not he was the Christ, I mean, he sat down with the
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scriptures. He's like, hey. You've kinda misunderstood the scriptures. He goes back and and
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shows us. And so there are parts of revelation that I believe
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that are unclear, that are difficult to understand. But
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I think the things that are the most clear are when he comes
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back, it's gonna be big. He oh, I gotta say, he is
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coming back. Mhmm. When he does, it's gonna be big. And when he
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does, that signals the beginning of the end. Yeah. Those are the
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things that we're not we're not we're not we're not he's not coming back a
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second time. He came once and is like, no. No. No. You don't understand. There's
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gonna be 2. Right. He's not gonna come back a second time. He's like, no.
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No. No. No. It's actually 3. Wait. No. No. No. No.
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It's actually 4. Yeah. He said, when when I come back, it's
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it's game over. Yeah. So before
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we get too far down this this road, I kinda wanna zoom out
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kind of to base factual level. So the book is
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written by John. Yes. Who was he writing
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to? What was is this something that, like, he
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just, like, had a vision? Did he leave it to someone?
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What was the intent of the book? Kinda give me that breakdown.
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So John, the apostle. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. There were 12
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disciples. Jesus called to help him. Simon, Peter, Andrew, James, his brother, John.
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You know that do you know that song? I do not. Okay. I am. Probably
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should. There's a song I know there's a there's a song where you learn the
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books of the Bible and a song where you learn the 12 disciples. I did
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learn the books of the Bible. I don't know the old testament one. Apparently, there's
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an old testament song. I don't know that one. So as the apostle John,
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like, we talked about also the author of the gospel of John, the three letters
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of John. Brother was James. He was a
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fisherman. The only one of the 12
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apostles who died of natural causes.
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Interesting. Okay. He, he was like, was it
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persecuted or something? Executed. Okay. Yeah.
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He was exiled. Okay. He was exiled.
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And and while on that island where they exiled
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him is when he had this revelation. And if you just,
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like, send him to a random, like, empty island?
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It it would it yeah. I mean, so it was kinda That sounds
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awful. I I I would imagine. I we could look
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into this more. I would imagine that this is probably more like what
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Australia was for, for the British initially.
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Okay. I think it was probably like a prison island. Okay. So I don't imagine
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it was probably or something like that. That's what I'm
20:01
imagining in my mind. I'm talking about I'm talking about British history
20:05
and Australia being a prison colony, and you went Harry Potter. I
20:08
feel bad. I should've gone Harry Potter. Met Bellatrix and I
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probably should've missed people there. I probably should've gone Harry
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Potter too. And so if you
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have a Bible that has red letters Mhmm. Right, so you go
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to the gospels. Oh, I can know where Jesus is speaking. Then you go to
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Revelation. A lot of people are surprised to see There's red letter there. That
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a lot of it is red letter. Interesting. And so
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it starts the first few chapters start with a
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very specific prophetic word that
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Jesus has for 7 different churches. Okay.
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You know? And so tell tell tell the church in
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Philippi this. Mhmm. And tell the
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church here this. Tell the church here this. And and
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each one of those things has a really interesting construct to it where
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it starts with kind of an affirmation. Mhmm. Hey. You're doing really
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well here. I'm proud of you, but you need to stop doing
21:07
this or be careful about this. And so it
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starts it starts in what would probably feels
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a lot more like one of the Old Testament prophetic books. Mhmm.
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A word from God comes to John, give this word to this
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particular group of people is the typical construct of
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those most of the books of prophecy in the Old Testament.
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And so the first few chapters start that way. Mhmm.
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But then it moves from that to a more a a a
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different sort of vision that John has.
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Okay. And with the purpose of
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I I I I I I want you to see this. I want
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you to write it down. I want you to to describe it,
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and with the idea then that we would have it and would then have
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this basic knowledge. Okay. So it's meant to be it's not like
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going to the Ninevites and tell these people. It was just Well, the first
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the first part the first part of it was Okay. And the second part of
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it was until the this thing that you're going to see and
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experience, I need I want you to tell everyone that. Okay.
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Which is the primary reason why it was included in the
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Bible when they were making the decision about what of all of these different
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letters and books and gospels and things, how are we gonna put
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these in? It seems like it was its main purpose was to
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be shared. Uh-huh. The reason why some people were like,
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are we sure though? Like This goes about like, for real? Because it's
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it's just so vastly different. Right. I mean, you've got
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these two main genres in the Old Testament. You know,
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gospel acts, if we count that as one thing, it's kind of a telling of
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the story of Jesus 4 different ways. And then the follow-up, kind of
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the sequel, here's what the apostles did after Jesus was gone.
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And then you have all these instructive letters from Romans
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all the way to Jude Mhmm. Written by, you know, handful of different
23:04
guys, written to a different groups of people. You know? But
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yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's right. Let's let's make sure we understand the history of
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Jesus, what the apostles were about, get some of their their
23:16
best, most clear, most important, you know,
23:19
instructive books. We're done. And
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then We've also got this, though. Right. Right. That's kinda weird.
23:27
Yeah. But, like, but not but, like, read it though, like, this
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is this is from John, the apostle. He says it is a
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word directly from Jesus and a word directly from Jesus that
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was meant to be shared. Mhmm. And so even back then, there was
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some question about it. Right. Because there's no
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other other than the prophets, there's no other in the New
23:49
Testament book that says this is directly from
23:53
Jesus. Well, yeah. I mean, like like like, word
23:57
for word directly from Jesus. Like, Paul was very clear he like, in
24:01
his letters that the the
24:06
the the substance of what he was teaching was from God.
24:09
Right. That it had it had got authority behind it.
24:13
Mhmm. But it wasn't the same as a prophetic word of
24:16
Right. There's nothing that Paul wrote that was gonna be in red
24:20
letters. Right. Unless he was quoting something from a gospel, which we'll get that
24:24
at least once. Yeah. So it the
24:28
this is different than that. There isn't any other,
24:31
like, just pure prophetic books like this
24:35
one. Yeah. And I think even then, at the time that
24:39
they're putting the the the the New Testament together,
24:43
even more so now, there was still a a really kinda
24:47
pragmatic let's let's put in things that are gonna
24:50
be prescriptive. There you go. Right?
24:54
Okay. Things that are things that are that are
24:58
that teach easily. Right. And except for those things describing
25:02
what those 7 churches should do, a lot of revelation is
25:05
not particular it's not easily teachable in the sense of, hey. Here,
25:09
we're gonna learn about this this third bowl judgment that is gonna hit during
25:13
this particular time of the tribulation. Therefore,
25:17
be a better husband. Right. It's it's not like that. It's just kinda
25:21
like You're just kind of gathering Oh, okay. A vision for something
25:25
that's gonna Right. Happen in the future. So
25:29
all of the the whole book is apocalyptic.
25:33
Right. Right. And so, it's all future focused,
25:37
but then it kind of makes me think of
25:41
not teaching or there is teaching in the gospels
25:45
and in the letters talking about not being anxious about what's to
25:48
come. Like, there's peace in knowing God and you're
25:52
good. So how does that kind of
25:56
match up? And I know John's intent probably wasn't anxiety,
25:59
but we're taught not to have anxiety. And then you're saying the biggest
26:03
response to the book is that people are like, oh,
26:07
no. Well, the book can't be held responsible for people having bad reactions
26:10
to it. Right. Right. Right. Right. You know, if if if Jesus
26:14
says this to John and then ultimately to us so that we will
26:18
be aware, and as we are aware, we
26:22
can trust that God is in control of it, that things are unfolding
26:25
the way that oh, in a way that God always knew that they
26:29
would. You should take some comfort in that. The fact that some
26:33
people look at future bad things coming
26:37
and have a a the inverse reaction to that, that's
26:40
not that's not that's not the book's fault. Yeah.
26:44
So do you think the main intent was to give hope?
26:48
Or it was to I think it was and I think it was probably written
26:51
to an audience that would be more inclined to draw
26:54
comfort from knowing that there was a plan behind Right.
26:58
Adversity as opposed to a much softer culture that
27:02
we have, which is we believe that we can
27:06
insurance policy and plan and build
27:09
and we can We can find our way out of it. We can we can
27:13
prevent Right. Catastrophes. Right. Right? That
27:17
that just extreme weather events that
27:20
have happened since the Earth, you know, for 1000 of
27:24
years. Right? Mhmm. I mean I mean, just like we we feel
27:28
like, well, eventually, we're gonna be able to build houses and buildings
27:32
and things that won't be able to be Right.
27:35
Affected by weather events. So, like, I mean, like, we're we're just
27:39
we we we believe we can control. Mhmm. And
27:43
so I think when you read and say the world is gonna spiral
27:47
out of people's control but God still has control, I think
27:50
there are a lot of people, Christians included, that will not draw
27:54
comfort from anything that's main objective is
27:59
you're gonna lose control. Right. Mhmm.
28:03
But the end, it's almost
28:07
like we've gotten into the habit of looking at the disaster
28:10
that's coming rather than the end result that's coming after that.
28:14
Right. Which is what you would take hope in. Right. Is that because I That
28:18
as things get bad, there is gonna be someone who's gonna be able to come
28:21
and clean it up Right. And take you to some place even better. Right. Because
28:25
then I mean, like, probably any kid would tell you there's
28:29
scary things that happen, but it's 10 times scarier when you look at their your
28:32
parent, and they're scared too. Right. But that's not the case.
28:36
Right. Jesus, he's got this under he's he's got this
28:40
he knows this is coming. And in addition to
28:43
knowing here hey. Here's how it's gonna play out,
28:47
But also and as you see that playing out rather than being scared, it's like,
28:51
oh, this is playing out the way that he said. And look, it in
28:55
the same book, it says that Jesus is gonna come and
28:59
he's gonna win. Right. The ending is not in doubt. And
29:03
so the fact that it seems like at during various points in
29:07
history, evil seems to be winning. Mhmm.
29:11
I don't have to fear that evil is going to ultimately win.
29:14
God is ultimately going to win. Mhmm. Don't don't allow
29:18
yourself to to be paralyzed by the fact that there will
29:22
be times when evil seems to be winning. Right. You're gonna
29:26
hear of wars and rumors of wars, and there's gonna be natural
29:29
disasters. And there's gonna be famine. And there's gonna be pestilence. And all these
29:33
things are going to happen. And and Jesus kinda describes that as kinda
29:37
like these are just kind of like like like like predictors.
29:41
They're like they're like the growing pains of what is actually going to
29:44
come. So don't don't be alarmed by it. Don't freak out about it.
29:49
What's coming on the other side of that is even gonna be more so. Don't
29:52
even freak out about that because on the on the other end of that is
29:57
the triumph of God, of good over evil,
30:01
of God over Satan. And so take take
30:05
heart, don't be surprised, and don't freak out.
30:08
Right. So in the Old Testament, when
30:12
there's prophetic about
30:16
Jesus coming, anything like that, their response was
30:20
almost just I don't know if extreme alertness was it,
30:23
but they were looking for the coming king.
30:27
And, like, there's I was reading the beginning of Luke, I
30:31
think, and there's someone mentioned at the beginning of the book that he was around
30:34
the temple for years and he wanted to see the Messiah.
30:38
That seems like, they were so excited about the prophetic word
30:42
that was coming. Is that a response that we should have? It's it's interesting that
30:45
you say that because I think that for the most part, a lot of the
30:48
prophetic writing in the Old Testament mostly had an
30:51
immediate application to it Sure. Mhmm. Of, like, hey hey. This is
30:55
about this thing is about to happen in the next couple of years,
30:59
and here's what I need you to do right now. Mhmm.
31:03
And it did have some more futuristic
31:07
prophecy to it predicting the coming of Jesus.
31:11
But I think, again, I think they lived so much in the moment, and I
31:14
we can't really judge them as a culture for this. They live so much in
31:18
the moment that they
31:22
a a lot of them weren't anticipating Mhmm. The coming of
31:25
Jesus. And those that were anticipating the
31:29
coming of the Christ, of coming of the Messiah, We're looking at
31:32
it through a very narrow lens of you're going to
31:36
overthrow this bad government right now for me.
31:39
Right. And so even still, they there was a very kind of
31:43
self focused, now focused view
31:48
that allowed them to miss the bigger
31:52
picture of what Jesus wanted to accomplish
31:55
while he was here. Mhmm. The same way right now, we we
31:59
we we can look at all the the things in the book
32:03
of Revelation, and we get we get distracted by,
32:07
well, that sounds like I'm gonna have to go through something bad. Right.
32:11
Right. And we're and we and we just have such we just can't get out
32:14
of our own tunnel vision of what is this
32:17
gonna mean for me. Mhmm. I don't well, I don't want these bad things to
32:21
happen. I don't want these bad things to happen to me. And so you'll
32:25
see, and I think we'll talk about this a little bit more as we kinda
32:27
get into some of the details of what Revelation says, is that
32:31
sometimes we have this response of, like, we feel like it is
32:34
our job as Christians to prevent some
32:38
of the things in Revelation from happening. It is our
32:42
job to protect ourselves and to make sure that something
32:46
like make sure, you know, antichrist doesn't get power.
32:50
Mhmm. I I mean, good luck. Right.
32:53
Right. God says the antichrist is gonna take power. Too. Yeah.
32:57
And you sitting around voting for who
33:01
you think isn't someone isn't the antichrist or or lamenting
33:04
against politicians who have non Christian values
33:08
is not gonna prevent something that that God has
33:12
said very surely will happen. Mhmm. I mean, there are
33:16
some things like the book of Jonah where he says, hey. Here's a prophetic message,
33:20
and what what happens depends on
33:24
your response to it. Mhmm. So
33:28
Jonah's message was, you know, repent or god's gonna
33:32
destroy the city. Mhmm. Well, they repented, so god didn't destroy the city. This
33:35
isn't repent or Armageddon's gonna happen. Right. It's gonna
33:39
hey. Guess what? Armageddon's gonna happen. Mhmm. And we're
33:43
again, we're so adverse to that. We spend some time trying to
33:47
prevent it rather than really having a
33:50
big picture theology of that includes suffering,
33:54
that includes a broken world, and can take hope
33:58
in even in the midst of suffering
34:01
and trials. Mhmm. And so I think for
34:06
people who only knew adversity, primary readers of
34:09
a lot of these apocalyptic things, who only knew adversity, only
34:13
knew persecution, only knew subjugation,
34:17
they would have taken it as hopeful. Mhmm. But if you think,
34:21
actually, I I really like it here. I kinda like my life. Right. I'm sure
34:25
it's bad in places, but I don't live in those places. Yeah. And sometimes
34:29
bad things happen here, but I've got plans to kind of overcome most of
34:32
that. So do you think we've lost sight of
34:36
how awesome eternity with God is gonna be?
34:40
I think we I think I think, yeah, I think we we we like what
34:44
we have here, and I think there's a deep fear of the unknown. Yeah.
34:47
Hey. Guess what, Abigail? For eternity,
34:52
you're gonna have to live someplace you've never
34:55
seen and do something you don't know what, and you're gonna have to
34:59
do it forever. Right. Like, I remember Heidi, my wife,
35:03
saying this to the guy who was doing some of our pre marriage counseling. She
35:06
was talking about anxiety about becoming a wife. Like, I'm
35:10
making a commitment to do something for the rest of my life that I've never
35:13
exactly what it is. That I've never done once in my I've never once been
35:16
a wife. Mhmm. And now I'm making a commitment that I'm gonna do it for
35:19
the rest of my life. I think there's a little bit of that to it.
35:21
Mhmm. I think I think there's a sense in which I
35:25
know what this is even though it is imperfect,
35:29
and I ignore the bad parts. I work really hard to make it only
35:32
good, and I convince myself that this is good.
35:36
So bad kinda freaks me out, and I'll take
35:40
this imperfect thing that I that I
35:44
know versus anything that I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. That makes
35:47
sense. So oh, I mean,
35:51
it makes me think of, I was in a history class in college
35:55
and they're talking about manifest destiny and all of the different ideas
35:58
of early America is very inspired by scripture,
36:02
all these things. And then one student was like, well, looks like
36:06
the Christians failed. You don't have, like, a government of
36:10
your own and all this stuff. And I was like, that's a really interesting point.
36:14
That's not what I ever thought our goal was, but
36:18
we could maybe get that kind of confusion of, like, we can do enough
36:22
to Well and and we'll talk about this. And this may be a good
36:26
stopping point for us then to kinda make the transition. Because there was for a
36:30
long period of time, which would have included
36:34
the the late 17 100, 18 100, where
36:38
a thought about what the book of Revelation meant was
36:41
things were going to be bad for a season, but we, in
36:45
fact, did have the ability
36:49
to Christianize the whole world. And then once we did
36:52
that job, Jesus would come back. Right. That all the bad things in
36:56
Revelation are gonna happen during this window, but we
37:00
can fix it. We are gonna make the world better. We are gonna make the
37:03
world completely and totally Christian. And then once we
37:07
have, as God's people, have conquered evil here, Jesus comes
37:11
back. Mhmm. So we can talk more about that because I think that that
37:14
really did kind of inform that. Yeah. And
37:18
we can talk about all the reasons why people don't believe that anymore because
37:22
the way the world unfolded in the early parts of 20th
37:26
century. Right. But that's that's a good stopping point because now now we're about to
37:30
get into it. So I think before we start talking about the the details of
37:33
that, it'd probably be good for us to do kind of the big picture overview
37:37
of kind of the major schools of thought. Yeah. So we'll do that next episode.
37:41
But let's answer that question. Okay. And let's, you
37:44
know, actually follow-up on our promise that I would get an answer out of you.
37:47
Of what? Someone walks up to you, and maybe
37:51
they've had experiences of anxiety with the book of Revelation, or
37:55
they just don't understand it. Why should I read it?
37:59
With all of what we've said in mind, why would you say it's worth their
38:02
time to sit down and read it? Well, I mean, I would say, I think
38:05
for the most part, I think I think you are. If you've got a limited
38:08
amount of time, I mean, I would I would I would encourage you to read
38:12
spend more time on the gospel of John and the book of Romans
38:16
and second Timothy and Galatians. I mean, there's lots of
38:20
books that I feel like are just better
38:23
as far as your ability to kind of as far as, like, what
38:27
I really want out of my devotional Mhmm. Reading
38:31
time with God. But I do think that it's important on some level for
38:35
us to have some general understanding of kind of the big picture story
38:39
of the Bible from Genesis to Genesis to Revelation. I mean, we don't
38:42
spend a whole lot of time talking about the
38:46
the the kings of the divided kingdom between
38:49
Israel and Judea post Solomon before the exile into
38:53
Babylon. And And even me saying that phrase, like, I don't even know what we
38:56
need to under we need to understand that. We need to understand
39:00
have an overview, big picture idea of the whole thing. And so part
39:04
of that is understanding how the story ends.
39:08
And at the same time, I think it's important for us to read and understand
39:11
that so that we aren't caught off guard, and I think it does
39:15
help us shake off an,
39:19
imperfect worldview that we have that this
39:23
world is great, and our job is to make it great as opposed
39:27
to really understanding that we live in a broken
39:30
fallen world, and our hope is not in this world but the next. Yeah.
39:36
But I would encourage you
39:40
to read it in a group, and I would encourage you to read
39:44
it with someone who has at least some sort of I
39:48
would encourage you to study it with a trusted person Yeah.
39:51
Because it is not easily understood. So we'll have a sign up
39:55
sheet to read it with Charlie. Stop. Most most people
39:59
most pee like, there are lots of parts of the Bible that I would encourage
40:02
people to read the parts that are most easily
40:06
understood on your own. Sure. But there are parts of the Bible that are significantly
40:10
more difficult to understand on your own. Mhmm. And so that's where
40:14
we'll spend most of our time on Sundays teaching from the books
40:17
that people can uneasily understand on their own because I want people to believe that
40:21
the Bible is user friendly, which it is. But there are some parts
40:25
of the Bible that are just significantly less user friendly. Right.
40:29
So it's important to understand it. It's great. Spend your time
40:33
mostly in your devotional reading, reading and studying the parts of the
40:37
Bible that you can most easily understand. Mhmm.
40:41
Some of these other ones, do it in a group with someone who's gonna help
40:44
you not get off the rails. Right. Yeah. That makes
40:47
sense. Yeah? Okay. Good answer. I don't want you to feel like I didn't answer
40:50
the question. If I feel like it's okay. Okay. And I'm sure we'll round that
40:52
out even more For sure. Next episode. For sure. For sure. Hazus, thanks for joining
40:56
us. If you have an interest in the book of Revelation, you're probably
41:00
just like you just like you it'll drool coming out. I can't I can't wait
41:03
for the next episode. We're gonna talk about all the things. I feel like most
41:07
of the time, I have a whiteboard. This is gonna be difficult in
41:11
podcast format. Stolen. Wow. But even still, like, I mean, well,
41:15
most of the people are listening to this rather than be be unfair.
41:19
But we will. We'll kind of talk about some of the the different theories about
41:23
what revelation is saying and which
41:27
ones are more in fashion versus other ones and why and kind of a little
41:30
bit of the history of it. And then we'll just, you know, we'll try to
41:34
we'll try to do a bit of a deep dive into some of this too.
41:36
So Yeah. I I love again, that's why I love the fact we got you
41:39
here. We don't really know a whole lot about it. I'd rather be
41:43
talking to somebody to fill in the gaps. So we can just kinda fill in
41:45
some of the gaps, make sure we fully understand this as best we can. So
41:49
thanks for joining us. Encourage you to keep coming back, to the next
41:53
episode. We're doing this for a couple more. Thanks for joining us. And as always,
41:57
Abigail, thank you. Good to be here.
42:03
Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking
42:06
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42:10
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42:21
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