Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: The Real Reason Joe Berlinger Cast Zac Efron as Ted Bundy

Transcript

Killer Thriller: The Real Reason Joe Berlinger Cast Zac Efron as Ted Bundy · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: Few killers have captured the public imagination quite like Ted Bundy.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: More than three decades after his execution, people remain fascinated
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: by the man responsible for the murders of at least
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: thirty young women across multiple states. Handsome, intelligent, and outwardly charming,
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Bundy shattered the public's assumptions about what a serial killer
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: was supposed to look like, making his story one of
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: the most enduring and unsettling cases in American criminal history. Today,
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: we are joined by filmmaker Joe Berlinger, one of the
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: world's leading true crime storytellers and director of Extremely Wicked,
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Shockingly Evil, and Vile. The film examines how someone capable
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: of such horrific crimes could appear so normal, charismatic, and trustworthy. Joe,
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for being here.
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: Of course, delighted to be here. How are you doing today?
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm doing great, aside from having Ted Bundy
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: all up in my grill because it's I mean, this guy,
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: it's truly he's utterly diabolical and kind of the purest
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: sense of the word, a truly sick human beings. So,
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: before we get into the movie itself, for people who
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: know the name Ted Bundy but maybe not the details,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: who was Ted Bundy and why does he continue to
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: fascinate people nearly forty years after his execution.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, there are a lot of serial killers
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: who were more prolific, killed more people. We're more sed
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: stick if you can rank it, you know, but Bundy
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: fascinates us to this day because I think he shattered
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: the myth or the illusion that made us comfortable about
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: what a serial killer is. You know, he he was
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: well liked, charming, intelligent, and he lured his victims to
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: their deaths by using his charm. You know, we want
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: to think that serial killers, you know, emerge from the
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: shadows looking really creepy with blood dripping from their teeth,
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: because it allows us to say to ourselves, give us
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: the false comfort that you can identify the evildoer in society.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: But you know, the truth is, and why Bundy is
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: so well remembered, is that he was well liked by
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: his friends. He had a living girlfriend in fact, which
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: is the whole point of view of extremely wicked. So
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: here's a guy who preyed upon collegiate young collegiate women
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: in the Pacific Northwest University of Washington, you know, Seattle area,
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: but then continued his killing spree, you know, in Colorado
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: and Utah. Ultimately he was caught in Florida. But he
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: was a charming fellow when he wanted to be. And
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: in all of my explorations of crime, I've done a
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: lot of crime documentary work in addition to that scripted movie.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: You know, the hard truth is that the people who
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: do evil in this world are not the people who
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: look like they're going to do evil. It's people you
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: least expect and most often trust. And you know that's
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: true with all shocking crime. The pedophilic priest or the
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: basketball coach who takes advantage of the locker room. You know,
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: Bundy was Bundy made us realize that serial killers can
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: be the guy Index Stoor who's you know, you invite
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: over to a party. And so that's one reason we
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: remember Bundy. The other reason we remember Bundy is he
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: kind of there was there was. I hate to use
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: this phrase because it sounds sensationals. I don't mean in
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: this way, but kind of the golden age of serial killers.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: These outraged white men Gacy, Dahmer, Undy and Bundy kind
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: of kicked off that ear in the seventies and eighties
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: where this kind of crime was much easier to commit
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: than it is now. There are cameras everywhere now, but
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: back then, forensic science was not what it is today.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: Back in, police departments didn't share information. As shocking as
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: that is, you know, crimes you know that took place
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: in different police terre. You know, there's fourteen thousand police
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: jurisdictions in this country and they now they share information.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: But Bundy is the case that taught them to share
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: information because they were missing, you know, the fact that
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: there is a serial killer. In fact, the term serial
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: killer was invented, you know, in the Bundy era, and
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: and the modern art of profiling, right profiling what a
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: serial killer is came a bath through the study of Bundy.
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: So he's just, you know, he's just, He's just. And
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: then you know, you could also say that our you know,
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: you're a true crime podcast, I'm a true crime film aker.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: Although I hate the phrase true crime. We can get
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: into that at a minute.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I know it's not my favorite either, But.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: You know, I think our modern media fascination with serial
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: killers can trace back to Bundy because he was a man.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: You know, he was a He was an influencer and
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: a social media master before the existence.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Of the right.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: He manipulated people's perceptions of him, He represented himself at
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: trial and created this amazing for all those reasons, we
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: remember Ted Bundy.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, we are definitely going to get into the circus
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: that was the courtroom and all of and the women
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: that flocked to seemingly just want to see him, which I.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Can't metabolize that. But so one of the most shocking.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: Facts about Ted's early life is that he spent many
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: years believing that his mother was actually his sister. So
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: do you because back in the day it was sort
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: of the unwed mother's right and it was you were
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: kind of banished away if you didn't have a husband
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: and the father present. So do you think that that
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: family secret had any lasting impact on him?
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we always try to explain things.
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: I don't buy any of these theories. I think people are,
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: you know, going to do evil, They're going to do
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: evil you know, I mean, I think, I think, you know,
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: I think there's a physical difference, and that's there's a
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: woman named Dorothy Lewis who did a lot of exploration
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: into brain abnormalities of serial killers. You know, there's a
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: lot of people who had very happy childhoods, and interesting
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: Bundy mythologizes his childhood as a you know, in the tapes,
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: in the mythologizes his childhood as a happy place. But
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: like the shock that he was adopted, you know, I
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: just don't buy those as you know, how many people
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: have trauma. I mean, honestly, I grew up with an
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: abusive father who beat the shit out of us, and
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: like I could have gone off and you know, his
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: father beat it out of him, and my father beat
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: the shit out of me. And I'm the nicest last
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: my wife, I'm the nicest guy. I've exercised my trauma
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: through making films, but I haven't laid a finger on
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: my wife for children, and never would, So like I don't,
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: I don't think you can explain away these things, unfortunately,
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: and it's as you know, a lot of people have
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: this knee jerk reaction to true crime podcast true Crime
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: storytelling you know, some people love it, of course, you know,
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: and some people just think, you we shouldn't be making
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: films about this. I got so many criticism, why are
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: you glorifying the serial killer? And it's not glorifying. Unfortunately,
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: serial killing and murder is part of the human condition.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, unfortunately, this is part of who we are.
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: And we don't tell storytellers don't do films about divorce
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: or adultery. We don't say, don't do films about greed,
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: you know, but this is part of the human condition,
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: and if we want to understand the phenomenon, we have
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: to look at in the face. So I don't think
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: you can. I think there's an easy just going back
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: to your question, I don't think there's an easy explanation
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: for why anybody you know becomes a serial killer. He
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: didn't have that horrible a childhood, right.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: We had a psychologist on who made the connection told
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: me that Jack Nicholson, I think, had a similar situation
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: where he grew up for a period of time thinking
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: that his mother was his sister. And she said, you know,
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: made the point of clearly, he did not become a
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: serial killer.
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: And yeah, and Jeffrey Dahmer you know, had a very
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: happy home life, you know, I mean so like you know, certainly,
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: certainly abuse of children it is something we should all,
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: you know, worry about, and it certainly doesn't create people
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: who sometimes act out because of that abuse. So there
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: is there is a link to I think, you know,
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: having a torturous childhood and some people finding that they
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: need to express it through violence. R I don't think
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: that's the key to identifying why people kill. I think
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: it's part in nature, you know.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Sadly, Yeah, do you think that?
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, me sitting here with my armchair expertise,
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: I think, oh, if I had ever met Ted Bundy,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: I would never have been manipulated by this man because
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: he looks crazy to me. But he clearly was manipulated
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: by so many people. And do you think that if
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: he looked different he would have been caught sooner? And
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: is that part of.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Why he was able to continue?
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: I mean I think, I mean partially, I mean he
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: was and you know, I know there's some photos that
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: make him look crazy or whatever, but generally speaking, he was,
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: by all accounts, the charming guy, well liked had friends.
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: In fact, after the early murders, at Lake Samamish, where
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: there was a composite sketch put in the paper. A
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: number of his friends, including his girlfriend, looked at the
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: sketch and said, my god, this looks just like Ted,
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: and what a coincidence. This guy also has a BW
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: bug and just could not accept that. This guy with
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: high intelligence. You know, I think his good looks have
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: been slightly overstated. He was a charming He was a
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: charming fellow. You know, was attractive, and he was able.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: You know, he'd walk into the library at the University
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: of Washington and with a cast on, and you know,
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: he played upon human kindness, in humanity. You know, other
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: serial killers, you know, relied on on you know, other
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: forms of capturing people. But he just relied on people's
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: good will and need, you know, to help, which, coming
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: from some lack empathy, was pretty extraordinary. But he'd pretend
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: he had a cast ask some girl to help him walk,
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: walk him out with books to his car, and then
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: he'd whack him over the head and take them away
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: and do terrible things. I mean, you know, but that's
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: the lesson, you know, that is the lesson of Bundy,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: which is why I wanted to explore it and both
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: scripted and unscripted, is that just because somebody is charming
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: and good looking doesn't mean you should trust them. Whether
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: he would have got caught sooner, probably because if he
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: looked creepy and people you know, and his and his
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: and he and his acquaintances weren't in such a state
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: of shock. But it also again had to do with
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: the era. He wasn't caught for a long time because
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: police information from science as we know it today barely existed.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: We didn't know about the concept of serial killing really
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: from a law enforcement standpoint. There were serial killers in
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: the past, like Jack the Ripper and whatnot, but this
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: was really the awakening of America and this guy in
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: this time period.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: Right, So let's talk about extremely wicked and speaking of
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: you cast someone incredibly handsome and charming, Zach Efron, who
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: is wonderful in this So what was behind like how
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: there was a lot of debate about that apparently, So
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: why did you choose Zach?
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: A lot of criticism too. Well, Yeah, the idea of
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: the movie is to be inside the point of view,
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: you know. The documentary series, of course, is inside the
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: mind of the killer, and a complete catalog of all
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: the things he did and investigating why he did what
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: he did. What you can't do in a documentary is
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: dramatize the impact he had on those around him, you know,
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: which explains why he got away with it for so long,
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: because he had such a credible double life. And so
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: if you know, to me and my target audience for
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: this film was young collegiate women, let me take a
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: step back and tell you how this film came to be. Yes,
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: how I decided to lean into both projects. I was
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: sitting around Thanksgiving table with my two wonderful daughters who
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: at that time one was just finishing university and the
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: other was just going in. One was mit, the other
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: was graduating from Columbia. So I had two like a
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: proud dad, but I had two very bright young women.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Bravo dad, good job.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: You know, went on to do great things still. But
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: this is now twenty eighteen, and I was contemplating these projects. Well,
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: actually I was. I hadn't get extremely wicked. The way
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: it came about was another story, but I was actually contemplating.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: The Bundy Tapes shows an author of a book called
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Ted Bundy Conversations with a Killer that came out in
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine. Had gone to death Row shortly before
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: Bundy was executed, and gave these interviews that are the
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: source of the documentary that was in nineteen eighty nine.
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: The book came out, the interviews were like eighty seven,
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: and the author reached out to me and said, hey,
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: I'm a big fan of your work. I found these
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: tapes that in the closet that my audio, you know,
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: my cassette tapes that I did the interviews with. Do
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: you think there's anything here for a documentary? And I said, well,
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: let's see, Bundy's a well worn tire. It's been told
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: many times, it's been twenty five years. I don't know.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: Let me listen to the tapes. And so I listened
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: to the tapes and I thought they were extraordinary insight
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: into the mind of a killer. So I'm contemplating, you know,
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: like I've done crime in my career, but I had
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: never gone this dark. Most of my crime was projects
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: and thing that most that I'm most well known for
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: are my wrongful convictions. I've gotten seven people out of
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: prison over the years. Actually, and Paradise Loss was I
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: think the best known in the West Memphis Murder Case
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: and those films. I did three of them over twenty
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: years for HBO. Those films literally helped get these guys
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: off a death row and out of prison. So my
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: focus on crime has more been wrongful conviction. But I'm
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: sitting around the Thanksgiving table and I said to both
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: of my very bright daughters, I'm thinking about doing this
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: Ted Bundy thing. What do you guys think? And they're like,
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: who's Ted Bundy? I said, you know, the serial killer?
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: And they're like they had no clue. I said, that's interesting.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: You have never heard of Ted Bundy. Nope. And then
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: I said, well, texture and both of them, you know,
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: obviously have friends who are at these very smart institutions.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: I said, you know, text your friend Nemott and text
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: your friend Alison. Yes. And so literally nine out of
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: ten people in that age group did not know who
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Ted Bundy was. One of them a baseball player. So
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: I thought to.
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: Myself, if the if, the if, the basic message of
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: Ted Bundy, if you could boil it all down to
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: the idea that just because somebody is good looking and charming,
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: be wary of trusting them.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: Because right around this time, by the way, there was
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: that murder of somebody who thought they were getting into
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: an uber and it was a fake Uber driver and yes,
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: core person was murdered. So I felt very good about
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: putting out into the world a retelling of this story
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: for the Netflix generation, which which scus very young, a
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: reminder of who this dude is.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like a cautionary tale.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: You know. How the feature came about is another thing,
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: which was And just to get to your main question, why, Zach,
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: So my lesson from the doc was, Wow, a lot
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: of people don't know this story of that age group,
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: and they really need to know that story because catfishing
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: happens all the time, you know, and you just you
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: need to know who you're dealing with before you implicitly
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: trust them. And then I was actually having lunch, and
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: I know this sounds so Hollywood. I live in a
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: work I'm not like a Hollywood guy. But I was
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: having lunch with my CIA agent, Michael Cooper, and I
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: was telling him how fascinating the Bundy tapes were, and
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: I think this is going to be really you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: I think I'm innovating the genre of documentary. I think
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: I think there's something really interesting here. And I was
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: just excited about the show, and a light bulb went
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: off in his head and he said, oh, you know,
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: there's this Hollywood blacklisted script called Extremely Wicked. You should
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: check out now the Hollywood Blacklist for your audience in
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: case you don't write. It's not a negative thing. It's
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: a positive thing that Hollywood blacklists are scripts that have
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: been kicking around Hollywood that producers and studios have attempted
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: to make or want to make, but they just you know,
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: either the money falls out, the cast falls out. Some
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: say that cancels the project. Scripts that are noteworthy but
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: have been not produced. And so Michael Cooper said, you
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: should read the Hollywood blacklisted script of Extremely Wicked if
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: you're into this territory. I read the script and somewhere
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: over Denver, I texted him like I read it. On
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: the flight home, I said, I love it. I love
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: the POV because the POV is you don't know, it's
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: Ted Bundy. Well that was the original draft. So so
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: he connected me with the guy who owned the rights
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: to the script, a guy named Michael Cossagan who's now
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: Jason Bateman's partner at Aggregate. And I so I called
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: Michael a lot, we set up a zoom and I said,
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: I love the script. By the way, I'm in the
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: middle of doing a documentary about it, so nobody knows
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: more about the subject matter than me, and I have
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: an idea of why this has been hard to produce,
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: and here's my concept. And basically the script relies on
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: you not knowing it's Ted Bundy until the very end
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: of the movie in the original script. And to me,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: I said, to Michael, I said, that's great for a experience,
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: but in this world, there's no way you can cast somebody,
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: make a movie and have people hold the secret that
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: this guy who's seemingly being wrongfully accused of these crimes
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: is actually if you don't of being you know, Ted Bundy.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: Holding that until the end of the movie, I think
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: is just not going to work as a movie. But
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: if we lean into the fact that it's Ted Bundy,
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: and this script was by Michael work by the way,
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: and those did a brilliant job. So I'm not saying
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: we did a massive rewrite. We just did some tweaks
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: and really lean in. The audience knows all along that
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: it's Ted Bundy, you know, and we're seeing things from
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: the perspective of the girlfriend who in real life he
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: got he I mean, it all happened. He lived with
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: this woman, Elizabeth Kendall. Elizabeth Kendall had a daughter from
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: another relationship who revered Ted. And so getting back to
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: why I cast Zach if my daughter's generation is the
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: target audience for this movie, and the point of the
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: movie is be careful who you trust and go along
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: with the ride that maybe he if you don't know
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: that much about Bundy, that maybe this guy does have
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: maybe he is innocent. Why not choose an actor for whom,
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: for a certain generation, they just revere this guy, They
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: think they know him. He's so beloved by young women
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: of that age group that I want it to be
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: a shock. I want them to believe, well, maybe it
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: is credible, that it's a misunderstanding. And so when he
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: finally you know, writes hack Saw in.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: The Glass at the very end of the movie, when
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Lily Collins' character you know, intellectually knows he's the killer
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: but emotionally needs to know and says, release me, tell
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: me the truth, and he writes.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: Hacksaw, I want the audience for whom who's mainly targeted
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: to to have that same emotional experience of feeling betrayed
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: by somebody they revered, like Zach Effron. Like it was
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: written off as stunt casting and sensationalizing. No, the reality
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: is this serial killer got away with it because he
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: charmed people through and had a double life, And that's
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: what I was trying to portray, you know.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there is something that is very similar about their
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: eyes in particular, and I know, I'm sure there you know,
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: we see Ted in the real Taed just with that
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: kind of deep, dark stare into people, and I feel
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: like the film does a great job of mirroring that idea.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: And Zach has such a gaze that you know, generally speaking,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: is so bright and lovely and charming, but it's when
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: it's turned this way it is indeed dark.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: Ye.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, he was very very good and so the
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: you know, so people were saying that it glamorized him,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: But is it possible to you know, even talk about
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: him because he was such a sociopath and such a
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: narcissist that I don't know, is it even possible to
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: portray him without some kind of belief that you're glamorizing it.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, that argument is to me, is just so
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: narrow minded that we're glamorizing somebody who in real life,
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: as I said, Bundy was attractive to many women. I
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: mean whether whether he was attractive as Zach, you know, no,
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: but he it was attractive enough that he attacted groupies
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: to his trial who all believed he was innocent. Those
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: groupies weren't there because oh my god, I love serial
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: killers and I can't wait for this guy to do
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: his next killing. They thought he was charming and innocent
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: and wrongfully convicted. That's the power that this guy had.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: That's the power that Zach had. That's what I'm portraying.
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: I'm portraying the uncomfortable truth, and I think that's why
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: it's it rubbed some people the wrong way. The uncomfortable
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: truth is that you're good looking, neighbor, you're good looking
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: or I hate to use the word good looking, because
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: that's what that's oversimplified. You you know your neighbor, whom
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: you like, and trust your boss whomever. All those people
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: could potentially be a serial killer and they're off hours
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: and that's that gaslighting of the people around them, convincing
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: them that they're a good guy. What the movie is portraying.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: Anyone who thinks, by the end of the movie, I'm
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: glamorizing them is just got to have their head examined,
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: because by the end of the movie he admits to
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: having cut the head off of his last victim with
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: the Lily Collins character wanted to and Lily has this
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: flashback of all the little clues along the way. Now,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: you know, we've all had that experience where you notice
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: something is off subconsciously, but you don't really pay attention
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: to it. But then when you realize the truth, you know, oh,
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that person's cheating on me. Oh my best. Then then
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: a flood of images that you interpreted one way come
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: back to you now with their with their truth. Yes,
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: you know, you know it's funny. I mean, I just
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: think it's generally the I think there's a certain group
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: of people who obviously love this stuff, and there's a
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: certain group of people who just have a knee jerk
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: reaction that true crime shouldn't be made, that any any
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: tempt to tell that story is glamorization. And as I
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: said before, we don't tell people not to make stories
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: about X, Y or Z. Why would we avoid telling
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: stories about one of the most fundamental aspects of the
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: human condition. Yes, just to demonstrate how you can't win
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: no matter what in this category for those who charge glamorization.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: When Conversations with a Killer came out, it's a very
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: detailed accounting of all the gross things he did. It's
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: inside his mind why he did what he did, how
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: he did what he did. Like you know, very few
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: details are spared. It's a hard show to watch. And
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: when that show came out and the trailer came out,
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: I was excoriated by that group of people. Look at
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: all this violence. How can you show this viol You're
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: glamorizing Bundy by showing all this violence. Okay, note to self.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: Now I make a movie called Extremely Wicked in which
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: it has very little violence. The whole point of the movie,
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: I don't see any act of killing. You know, it's
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: reference at the trial, but even that's late in the movie.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: But the only the only real killing that you see
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: is when Lily has that final meeting. Keep saying, Lily,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: Lily Collins character has that final meeting with Ted Bundy
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: on death row where she needs to hear him say
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: the words to make her really understand that, Oh my god,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: I've been gas lit all this time. Intellectually knows, but
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: she needs to know emotionally. And that's when we have
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: that flashback of images and there's just you know, it's
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: just as it's a very PG film on a certain level.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: And when that film came out and the trailer came out,
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: you know, remember I was excred by the glamorization crowd
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: for too much violence. Now when Extremely Wicked trailer drops
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: six months later, I'm excuriated because I'm showing too little violence.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: How can you show such little violence that's glamorizing? So
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: which is it? Too much violence is glamor right or
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: too little violence is right right? So I just think
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: you can't win with a certain crowd who just finds
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: this kind of storytelling.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Offenses right right.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: And you can choose not to watch, but don't tell me,
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: as a maker of content not to do it, as
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: long as you do it responsibily, I mean, honestly, I agree.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: One of the this goes back to when I said
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I hate the phrase true crime. You know, people call
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: me a true crime pioneer. I like the pioneer part.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: The true crime crime kind of gives me the willies
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: because there is a lot of irresponsible true crime out there. Yes,
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: stuff that's tonally off, that makes fun of in a
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: way that I think is disrespectful to victims. There's a
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: lot of scripted filmmakers who will go nameless, you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: that do scripted versions of stories and don't reach out
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: to the victims, don't make sure it's with them, you know,
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: don't even interact with the victims in terms of or
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: the real people involved to tell the story, which I
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: think is unconscionable. So for me, the phrase true crime
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: conjures up this baggage of wallowing in the misery of
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: others just to tell a story without any concern for
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: social justice or victims. And so I can for myself
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: a criminal justice filmmaker, you know, who tells dark stories
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: of crime, you know. And even with Bundy, you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: when they say you're glamorizing or sensationalizing, there's not a
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: single show that I've done where I don't ask myself,
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: what's the social justice needle to move here? How can
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: I impact the case? You know? And again for Bundy,
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: it was like my god, very bright twenty one year
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: olds don't know who Ted Bundy is. And both of
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: my daughters with long hair and being twenty a prototypical
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: Bundy victim, and so I felt retelling that story for
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: the Netflix generation was an important thing to do.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm one hundred percent with you on all of this,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: and even in you know, doing this podcast, I am
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: deeply committed to talking about the human side of this
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: and how do people get from A to Z and
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: the people I'm particularly.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Moved by the people.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Who go through great trauma, survive it, and then continue
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: to thrive and either lean into that part of their
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: lives where they see it as Okay, I have to
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: kind of answer the call of my life and keep
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: going and either help through this or you know, create change,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: impact change. So I'm totally with you on this. Okay,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: We're going to leave it there for today, but next time,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Joe Berlinger returns as we continue our exploration of Ted Bundy,
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: the man who fooled so many people for so long,
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: and the legacy of fear and fascination he left behind.