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212: The Art of Listening · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:01
  Hello, revolutionaries.
• 0:03
  Welcome back to the customer service revolution podcast with John DiJulius How you doing this week,
• 0:10
  Fantastic, how are you?
• 0:12
  Fabulous.
• 0:12
  Thank you.
• 0:13
  Thanks.
• 0:14
  Hey, I want to bring up I know today we're going to talk about the art of listening.
• 0:20
  However, I know this week
• 0:24
  That was a joke.
• 0:25
  Come on.
• 0:33
  Let's start over.
• 0:35
  I know this week we're going to talk about the art of listening.
• 0:39
  However, first I want to bring up a little bit of CX in the news.
• 0:45
  So recently there was a story you wrote about this in your blog about DoorDash.
• 0:51
  And DoorDash has come up with a new policy that you may have additional wait time if you don't tip.
• 1:01
  What's your thought?
• 1:02
  you have to do that.
• 1:03
  um I think what they're doing is when you place the order, right?
• 1:10
  So it's caused a lot of controversy.
• 1:13
  It's not the first time they did it.
• 1:14
  um Some people say they tip with cash, so they're being punished.
• 1:20
  uh It's hard, uh I think as a customer service experience, it sucks.
• 1:30
  I almost would rather they build in the tip like some companies do.
• 1:36
  I mean, I see it and I see why all these tipflations, screens have popped up coming out of the pandemic, hospitality, brick and mortar had lost so many employees.
• 1:50
  um And it was a way of...
• 1:56
  paying them more, not, you know, and you can argue why doesn't the owner pay them more?
• 2:00
  uh Yeah, so I'm trying to be empathetic with it, but it's just, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
• 2:10
  And a lot of businesses in this space, I think, build a tip in, and I think would almost be more easier to swallow.
• 2:21
  I don't know, what do you think?
• 2:22
  Because again, my knee jerk reaction is, that's horrible.
• 2:25
  But I understand they have a shortage.
• 2:29
  And my son, Bo, is door dashing.
• 2:31
  And he does come back and say, man, people don't tip.
• 2:37
  Really?
• 2:38
  Do people think it's built in?
• 2:40
  Is there a service fee?
• 2:42
  Or something?
• 2:43
  I'd have to ask him.
• 2:45
  There's got to be a service fee or something.
• 2:51
  They have to make the difference between what you're paying for the food from the restaurant and what DoorDash gets to keep.
• 3:00
  Yeah, I don't know enough about it, but what's your thought?
• 3:04
  Well, the word tips originally came from to Insure proper Service So people were asked to tip up front to, you know, to ensure they had great service.
• 3:16
  And it brings it back to that, but I don't like it.
• 3:20
  Especially if you're somebody that pays cash when someone comes into the door.
• 3:26
  Now you're penalized.
• 3:29
  in that regard, what do the drivers prefer?
• 3:31
  Would they rather have cash at the door or would they rather have a guarantee upfront?
• 3:37
  I think they want to guarantee.
• 3:37
  I think this is driven from the drivers and probably complaints and turnover and drivers saying they're not making enough money.
• 3:46
  um Years, when Uber started, they would keep a portion of the driver's tips.
• 3:54
  Uber did a lot of shady and illegal things with their first founder.
• 3:59
  Did you see the show Super Pumped?
• 4:04
  You never saw that?
• 4:06
  wow, I stopped using Uber for a while after that.
• 4:10
  It was really bad.
• 4:12
  But um yeah, I gotta believe this comes from high turnover, um complaints of uh drivers.
• 4:24
  So who is DoorDash's biggest competitor?
• 4:26
  it Uber Eats?
• 4:31
  I imagine.
• 4:33
  what's the other one?
• 4:34
  There's another one.
• 4:34
  um
• 4:36
  never used them either.
• 4:40
  My kids do, especially because, you know, where they live and stuff, but like New York and...
• 4:46
  Yeah, I don't know.
• 4:49
  I don't know if this is, you know, I'd be curious what their top competitors are doing or if this is a windfall for them.
• 5:00
  So, I don't know.
• 5:02
  of their pay is tips versus, I don't know how DoorDash gets paid, how their drivers get paid, do you?
• 5:10
  all good questions we need to look up and find out.
• 5:15
  Yeah.
• 5:17
  So I wonder what our listeners think.
• 5:19
  Would love to get their input.
• 5:22
  How do they share their feedback with us?
• 5:26
  uh The best way to share their feedback with us is just, yeah, just to give us comments wherever you're listening to your podcast or YouTube, or you can always send directly to
• 5:40
  us info at thedijuliusgroup.com.
• 5:43
  And that'll be in the show notes too.
• 5:45
  And there's also what I'd like to uh offer is TDG.
• 5:53
  Click forward slash ask.
• 5:58
  Ask us some questions.
• 5:59
  We'd love to do an episode with just um listener questions.
• 6:05
  Okay, so tdg.click forward slash ask.
• 6:09
  Yeah, we'd love to get your questions and do uh an episode just on your specific questions.
• 6:18
  Love that.
• 6:18
  All right, let's get on to our topic for today.
• 6:22
  Being a great listener.
• 6:26
  Where do you fall in this category on a scale of 1 to 10?
• 6:28
  Where do think you are?
• 6:30
  You know, before I did the research for the relationship economy, which is really where most book where most of this came out, I probably would have given myself a five.
• 6:43
  And then after I did the research, uh I think I was a one or two.
• 6:51
  Yeah, this is really hard.
• 6:54
  I just this is hard stuff.
• 6:56
  I get such a superpower.
• 6:58
  I've improved.
• 7:00
  But not enough.
• 7:02
  I love when I share it because the teacher always learns the most and you're more cognizant ah during the day.
• 7:13
  when you've just shared it.
• 7:17
  You shared it.
• 7:18
  No, when I speak on it, I'm a better listener for the next 24 to 48 hours.
• 7:27
  It's just when it wears off.
• 7:32
  In all your research, what have you learned that makes someone a great listener?
• 7:37
  What does it take?
• 7:39
  um Insatiable Curiosity, which probably goes with one of our previous um podcasts about uh relationship building.
• 7:50
  Was that the name of that?
• 7:51
  Yes, that was episode 208.
• 7:54
  Yeah, yeah, And curiosity, forward, collecting FORD asking people, all that.
• 8:01
  I love the uh word, determine, insatiable with curiosity.
• 8:10
  um Hold on.
• 8:20
  So curiosity.
• 8:25
  I can get rid of any of this, don't worry.
• 8:32
  You know, dying to learn about others, not only on subjects that interest you, but subjects that aren't familiar to you.
• 8:41
  And that was like something, I don't know if everyone goes through this or I was just really bad, but years ago.
• 8:51
  you know, if we had to go out with another couple and the guy didn't have the same interest in me, I would just dread that evening.
• 9:01
  That's why we liked going out with you and your first husband so much because right or wrong, we had a similar interest, sports, business, you know, all that.
• 9:15
  So, know, that being curious about things that
• 9:19
  you don't know about and then they become investigative reporters.
• 9:24
  But more on becoming a great listener is um fierce attention.
• 9:33
  I think this might have been Tom Peters has said of you, ask a question and don't ask two to three follow-up questions.
• 9:40
  Odds are you weren't listening or didn't care.
• 9:49
  You need to have a four to one ratio of questions asked versus answered.
• 9:55
  90 % listening, 10 % talking.
• 9:58
  And these next two things I love.
• 10:00
  um I love to say, um nearly impossible to do for me, don't defend your ideas, explore new ones, and listen like you're wrong.
• 10:14
  Listen like you're, yeah, yeah.
• 10:18
  I mean, I think that applies in everything, like in uh like service recovery with a client, listen like you're wrong.
• 10:27
  Don't be so ready to defend and say, no, no, no, what you don't understand is, whatever.
• 10:33
  Just listen like they're telling you the truth and you're wrong.
• 10:40
  Is that all?
• 10:42
  I mean, there's, yeah, I mean, just those are kind of some keys to being a great listener.
• 10:50
  uh Would you say some...
• 10:55
  uh Some fields, uh some positions, people are naturally better listeners than others.
• 11:04
  sure therapists right
• 11:11
  and some are worse than others.
• 11:13
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:14
  So there was a study done that we talk about in the book, The Relationship Economy, is uh doctors
• 11:26
  routinely interrupted their patients on average within 18 seconds.
• 11:32
  So why do you think?
• 11:34
  I always get the same two answers.
• 11:36
  Oh, and you worked for a doctor.
• 11:38
  Well, my guess would be people ramble on ah or they feel they have a diagnosis already.
• 11:45
  They don't need you to tell them anything further.
• 11:48
  Yeah.
• 11:48
  So the two most common answers I get when I ask the audience is, they're booked too heavy.
• 11:54
  It might have an impact on it.
• 11:56
  you know, come on, come on, let's get to it.
• 11:58
  um But what I believe and what um the research said was what you said.
• 12:08
  They know where you're going.
• 12:11
  You know, you've been running, training for a marathon, and now you come in and you're, hey, doc,
• 12:17
  My knee's swelling, been running a lot, little aches and pains, and they want to cut you off because they know exactly what you need.
• 12:27
  They have enough information.
• 12:29
  Let me write you an anti-inflammatory and stay off it for three to four days.
• 12:33
  I'm so not a doctor, but making that up.
• 12:37
  When I read that and I put it in the book, I started thinking about myself.
• 12:45
  And after I speak or conduct a workshop and I'll get, you know, people that come up to me after, and they want to tell me a scenario that's going on in their business.
• 12:55
  And I've never, ever.
• 12:59
  Believe I've heard in probably 500 of these interactions, a story I haven't heard before.
• 13:07
  Right.
• 13:08
  And so you're saying, you know, we have a situation where, you know,
• 13:15
  whatever you're explaining, um you know, what's wrong with your customer service or you have an employee who, you know, doesn't get it, or you got a customer that's demanding any
• 13:27
  of those things that, you know, we've talked about, we've written about it, we've consulted about it.
• 13:33
  And I get excited that I have the answer.
• 13:38
  So I cut you off.
• 13:39
  said, oh, here's what you do.
• 13:41
  There's a great example of this in my book, you know.
• 13:44
  here's what, the employee just needs more training.
• 13:46
  The employee hasn't been taught, you know, know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 13:50
  That, you know, it's not your fault.
• 13:52
  While it's not your fault, it is your problem.
• 13:54
  You need to own that.
• 13:55
  You know, so I go right into, you know, consultant mode and, and I got to believe everyone, accountant, doctor, lawyer, IT professional, probably hairdresser, right?
• 14:12
  Everyone.
• 14:14
  is an expert at what they do.
• 14:16
  And I doubt there's too often a client customer of theirs brings them a scenario that they haven't heard a hundred times before, because that's what they do.
• 14:30
  And I believe they get excited and want to help and interrupt, right?
• 14:36
  And how bad that is, right?
• 14:39
  That, you know.
• 14:41
  How bad, I'm sure I'm also maybe subconsciously erupting you because there's eight people behind you that are waiting to talk to me, right?
• 14:49
  So like the doctor, he's late for his other calls.
• 14:52
  But I really think it's the first reason is, oh, you're giving me this layup.
• 14:56
  Oh my God, like I can't wait to show you how brilliant I am, but also help you.
• 15:04
  listen, when we talk to people, clients, potential clients,
• 15:09
  They don't want feel like their question has been, you've heard it a million times before.
• 15:14
  And there's something about people want to pass along their emotional burden to another person, to another human, an expert, one that they trust understands their needs and will
• 15:25
  work to resolve that issue for them.
• 15:29
  And I try now to let you go, even though I know where you're going, and pause and think, that's a great...
• 15:37
  uh
• 15:38
  question, Denise, and then, you know, in my experience, you know, and then answer it versus cut you off within 18 seconds.
• 15:47
  And, you know, you're frustrated.
• 15:50
  And, you know, you didn't feel heard.
• 15:52
  Right.
• 15:53
  What do you think?
• 15:54
  Oh yeah, well what happens what happens when you do have a line of people and someone's telling you a long story because that happens.
• 16:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:06
  How do you listen?
• 16:09
  How do you allow them to be heard?
• 16:13
  What business model are we talking about?
• 16:14
  Mine where I'm doing Q &A.
• 16:16
  eh
• 16:16
  just talk about the scenario you just mentioned.
• 16:19
  You finished speaking.
• 16:20
  You have a line of people that want to talk to you.
• 16:24
  Yeah, so that's different.
• 16:27
  And then people build clocks, right?
• 16:29
  And my old thing is, don't build me a clock when I want to know what time it is.
• 16:35
  And so with that, where it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, she's really going down a rabbit hole here.
• 16:42
  And it's not something I can answer easily.
• 16:46
  I'm going to need more information.
• 16:51
  had to fire the last three employees you hired.
• 16:53
  your thing is employees suck and the young generation.
• 16:57
  Well, I don't want to give you an answer on that.
• 17:00
  There's more to that.
• 17:02
  Why'd you have to fire them?
• 17:03
  How'd you hire them?
• 17:06
  Did you hire them off the internet and not interview them?
• 17:09
  There's a lot more questions.
• 17:11
  So with that, when I know it, I'd say, Denise, this is a really important topic and I want to give it to time.
• 17:20
  Can we, as soon as I get through this and answering these questions or signing these people's books or whatever the scenario is, I'd love to meet you in the hallway and find
• 17:31
  out more about this, because I don't want to rush and give you an uneducated answer on guessing what the circumstances are.
• 17:40
  And I also do that when I'm taking questions.
• 17:44
  in the Q &A at the end and someone's going down a road that I know doesn't apply to the rest of the audience.
• 17:52
  I'd say that's a great question.
• 17:53
  I'd love to learn a little bit more about that situation so maybe we can meet after.
• 18:01
  So for our listeners, they know now they can meet in the hall and get a second keynote.
• 18:06
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:10
  on the topic of their choosing.
• 18:13
  Exactly.
• 18:15
  So some people, would say, John, are natural sponges, right?
• 18:20
  They like to learn.
• 18:21
  They listen.
• 18:23
  um Yet you say that a sponge does not necessarily make a good listener.
• 18:31
  Can you elaborate on that?
• 18:32
  Yeah, you know, in my book, again, Relationship Economy, I found a lot of um myths about being a good listener.
• 18:41
  And one of my big ahas was being a sponge is not a good listener.
• 18:47
  And what they mean by that is you just let the other person talk and talk and talk and you just give a couple ahas.
• 18:57
  Right.
• 18:57
  That's being a sponge.
• 18:58
  um They say
• 19:01
  You don't want to be a sponge, you want to be a trampoline.
• 19:04
  And a trampoline is interjecting, know, really, Denise, you know, where did you come up with that?
• 19:11
  Where did you learn that?
• 19:13
  And you're asking and probing questions to heighten the depth, your excitement to, you know, go deeper.
• 19:21
  It's still keeping it on you and your topic, but, you know, helping you.
• 19:26
  Because obviously if you just talk and the other person just listens,
• 19:30
  you start feeling like maybe they're not interested.
• 19:33
  But I go, Denise, that's so cool.
• 19:35
  I've never heard of that.
• 19:36
  How did you come up, or how did you get into that?
• 19:40
  What was that like?
• 19:41
  Was it hard for you at first?
• 19:43
  And that fuels you on the topic you're talking about.
• 19:48
  I love that.
• 19:49
  Trampoline, be a trampoline.
• 19:51
  Yeah.
• 19:51
  Yeah.
• 19:55
  We talked recently in one of our, I think the customer bill of rights, think that was episode 207, uh different never's and always.
• 20:04
  And you mentioned in that having conversation never's and always.
• 20:09
  Can you give some examples of those?
• 20:12
  Yeah, yeah, I really like these.
• 20:14
  They help me.
• 20:15
  A lot of our clients have used them.
• 20:17
  So some conversation nevers, and they're so obvious.
• 20:22
  It's just like the nevers and always in the customer bill of rights.
• 20:27
  But I think when you do a self-reflection, we're breaking these rules more than we like, and definitely our...
• 20:41
  customer-facing employees are breaking these rules even at a higher rate.
• 20:46
  So when you're a conversation with someone, be it a client, a team member, whoever, never multitask.
• 20:52
  Again, that's really, but are we peeking at our Apple Watch?
• 20:57
  Are we looking at our cell phone?
• 21:00
  I remember Jeffrey Gidamer, um sales guru.
• 21:04
  um He said something funny, but true.
• 21:09
  He said, what's the worst thing that you could do if you're in a meeting and your cell phone goes off?
• 21:17
  And everyone said, answer it.
• 21:19
  And he said, no, said, God, I hope you wouldn't answer it.
• 21:23
  Like that shouldn't even be an option.
• 21:25
  He said, look at it.
• 21:29
  And think about that, the cell phone, it's ringing and I'm like, sorry, sorry, Denise.
• 21:33
  And I look at it and I send it to voicemail and put it down, right?
• 21:39
  What is that telling you?
• 21:41
  you're checking to see if it's more important than I am.
• 21:43
  Yeah, you're lucky this time, because it was spam or, you know, CVS.
• 21:51
  But if it was anyone else, I'm not gonna...
• 21:53
  So obviously, you know, don't have your cell phone ringer on, but like, you know, if it ever is, you know, I don't look at it and I'm so sorry and I silence it and then turn it
• 22:04
  off, but I never look to see because, you you're the most important person.
• 22:09
  Never ask a question because you're dying to answer it yourself.
• 22:12
  We've talked about that.
• 22:13
  How was your weekend?
• 22:14
  And didn't really care because as soon as you said whatever you said, I wanted to tell you about my weekend because it was far more interesting and that.
• 22:27
  Never finish the other person's sentence.
• 22:29
  And that kind of goes back to the doctor interrupting at 18 seconds.
• 22:34
  I I am so bad at that um where I think I know where you're going and you're not going fast enough.
• 22:41
  So I want to speed you up a little bit.
• 22:43
  You know, last week me and Ken went to dinner.
• 22:46
  It's like, whatever that may be.
• 22:49
  And you brought this up, I think a couple of weeks ago, is uh never steal their thunder.
• 22:55
  ah Meaning, you know, someone tells you they went to Florida and they'd never been there and you're like, I have a condo in Florida, right?
• 23:07
  And kind of stole their thunder um of like, what can they tell you about?
• 23:12
  Never share your accolades.
• 23:14
  Did I talk about the example of when me and Claudia were at dinner and we at sitting at the bar and met some, a couple and, okay, good.
• 23:28
  It's not.
• 23:29
  um So yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:34
  So when we go out, I don't know about you, we like to sit at bars for dinner because better service
• 23:42
  Like you always have access to the bartender and there's a community there.
• 23:47
  So you meet people and you get into conversations.
• 23:50
  And one night we met a really nice couple and talked to them throughout the whole dinner.
• 23:57
  And so when we got up, it was like, Hey, pleasure to meet you.
• 24:00
  I'm Claudia.
• 24:01
  I must've said I'm John D.
• 24:04
  Julius.
• 24:04
  They introduced themselves.
• 24:05
  And he said, John D.
• 24:06
  Julius.
• 24:07
  I said, yeah.
• 24:08
  And he said, um didn't you write a book?
• 24:12
  And all I had to say was yes.
• 24:14
  And I said, at that time, I think I had written three.
• 24:19
  And I said, I've written three.
• 24:21
  And I looked at Claudia and she just was like, she could, you're such an ass.
• 24:28
  Yeah, like why did I have to say that?
• 24:31
  And as soon as it came out.
• 24:34
  So some conversation always.
• 24:36
  Again, obvious, remove any distractions, technology.
• 24:42
  Um, I used to like when employees would come in to the offices and say, you have a five minutes?
• 24:48
  I said, yeah, come and sit down.
• 24:49
  And I closed my laptop and I, I take my phone out of wherever it was and act act like I was turning it off and put it in a drawer.
• 24:59
  And boy, did they feel important, right?
• 25:03
  Um, demonstrate that your full attention's on the other person.
• 25:06
  this was from Neen James who spoke at our conference.
• 25:09
  Listen with your eyes.
• 25:10
  Like, like.
• 25:12
  If you're looking at the other person's eyes, you can't be distracted.
• 25:16
  Which takes me to the point of, you that you're so engaged in the person you're talking to that someone could blow off a firecracker and you don't realize it.
• 25:25
  Be an active listener, which means, you know, that trampoline.
• 25:29
  Ask probing and follow up questions.
• 25:32
  Clarifying why.
• 25:33
  Tell me more.
• 25:33
  Can you give me an example?
• 25:34
  What does that look like?
• 25:36
  Show empathy and support in a non-judgmental way.
• 25:41
  This is a hard one.
• 25:42
  Show patience.
• 25:43
  Let the other person finish their thought.
• 25:46
  Feel heard and let them empty their bucket and wait two seconds before responding.
• 25:53
  Because not everyone talks like me where I just never give, know, I just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and I have no airtime.
• 26:03
  Some people will say something and pause, but they have more to say.
• 26:09
  But as soon as I hear that pause,
• 26:12
  You know, that's, that's, that's my, you know, I've been waiting for that pause.
• 26:17
  Uh, always make the person feel like they're the centerpiece, be in learning mode.
• 26:22
  Everyone has something to teach, collect forward and document it for future use and commit to a follow-up when it's called for an action plan in a specific amount of time.
• 26:35
  Collect Ford, you mentioned.
• 26:38
  you want for any of our new listeners, do you want to elaborate on what Ford is?
• 26:43
  Yeah, family, occupation, recreation and dreams.
• 26:48
  Thank you.
• 26:50
  What's your take on call waiting?
• 26:57
  How so?
• 26:58
  when you're on a call and another call comes through.
• 27:04
  God, I feel like that hasn't happened for 20 or 30 years.
• 27:10
  Maybe purse?
• 27:12
  I have, but it's like usually, you know, yeah.
• 27:15
  I mean, it happened yesterday.
• 27:17
  I'm speaking to Claudia and one of my kids.
• 27:20
  Like that, are we talking about that?
• 27:22
  Like it never happens when I'm speaking to a client.
• 27:26
  First, I'm probably on Zoom, um but I would never even look ah if I hear a call waiting, if I'm speaking to a client.
• 27:34
  But you're talking more in the personal.
• 27:36
  Yeah, I'm talking more you're on the phone, whoever you're on the phone with, and another call comes through.
• 27:42
  Yeah, I mean, unless it's a doctor or the bank I've been trying to get a hold of, I don't think I would ever click over unless I'm looking for excuse to get off the call.
• 27:52
  A lot of times, if I'm speaking, uh Bo will call me five times in a row.
• 27:58
  And so the fifth time I'm thinking, right, maybe he needs, he usually doesn't, but I'll just say, can you hold on?
• 28:06
  But I never would do that with a client.
• 28:09
  I'll text Bo.
• 28:11
  and say, know, in a meeting on a Zoom, in a presentation.
• 28:18
  Yeah, why?
• 28:19
  What's yours?
• 28:20
  I just thought it when it first came out.
• 28:24
  50 years ago, however long ago it was.
• 28:27
  ah
• 28:29
  more advancements out there?
• 28:30
  Like, have you heard of AI?
• 28:35
  just always thought it was rude.
• 28:38
  You know, you'd be on the phone, you'd hear like click, click, click, click.
• 28:41
  And I always like, I don't want call waiting.
• 28:43
  I don't want call waiting because I don't want my conversations to be interrupted.
• 28:47
  yeah, and I'm sure, I I remember it back when I was in my 20s and we used it to the nth degree and it was rude, but I couldn't miss a call, right?
• 29:00
  There might be a better opportunity and I've just made plans with you, but hold on, I might be getting a cold because Joe and Sean,
• 29:14
  told me about some party, right?
• 29:16
  Yeah, I mean, I think it's the generation.
• 29:21
  Right, right.
• 29:24
  I have to go now.
• 29:25
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:29
  um what's your thought on speaking last?
• 29:37
  So was it in the relationship economy?
• 29:42
  It was in the Employee Experience Revolution, the last book, and a blog on it.
• 29:52
  Why is it important for leaders to speak last?
• 29:55
  Well, they say it is and I agree with it, but this is probably my weakest.
• 29:59
  Like I am not talking from an area of um do as I do.
• 30:04
  Like I just struggle with this.
• 30:07
  But have you ever been in a meeting as soon as the most senior leader in the room starts sharing what they think, the brainstorming and volleying of ideas cease.
• 30:17
  um The conversation becomes completely reoriented around
• 30:25
  the senior leaders thoughts and most leaders, including myself, feel like it's our job to state the challenge or opportunity and maybe offer some solutions and then ask the rest of
• 30:36
  the team, know, do you have any others?
• 30:38
  But that's called anchoring.
• 30:41
  So as you know from personal experiences, um you know, you might think if that's what John's thinking, there's no point in us coming up.
• 30:53
  He's gonna...
• 30:54
  end up there, right?
• 30:55
  And it's just a futile exercise.
• 30:59
  This is why great leaders speak last.
• 31:01
  um You know, maybe state the problem and don't give a solution and just let everyone share and call on people that aren't sharing.
• 31:12
  That is something I think I'm good at, um is calling on someone ah who's not aggressive in meetings.
• 31:23
  or doesn't want to compete for airtime with the people in the room that dominate.
• 31:33
  And so we got to say, Jess, what are your thoughts?
• 31:38
  Because she has great thoughts, but she's not going to compete with the people in that room.
• 31:48
  So acknowledging varying personality types.
• 31:55
  Simon Sinek has great advice.
• 31:57
  He says, the best leaders speak less.
• 31:59
  The skill to hold your opinion until everyone else has spoken does two things.
• 32:04
  One, it gives everyone else the feeling they've been heard.
• 32:06
  It makes everyone else feel that they have contributed.
• 32:09
  And two, you get the benefit of hearing what everyone else has to think before you render your opinion.
• 32:16
  cultures thrive when everyone else feels empowered.
• 32:19
  So there's a lot of great, great information on that.
• 32:25
  If you can give the link in the show notes to that blog, it's really, and then Luba Cosley ah in her blog, Why Great Leaders Speak Last, she says, first, don't drop an anchor.
• 32:43
  A group tends to latch onto the first thing that's said in the meeting.
• 32:47
  That's one reason the outspoken individual's comment was so persuasive.
• 32:52
  It created an anchor that the rest of the conversation circled around.
• 32:56
  She notes that validating uh of this verbal anchor isn't as important as it is dropped first.
• 33:03
  What follows an anchor is a series of adjustments.
• 33:06
  Each subsequent comment in
• 33:10
  inevitably relates to the anchor comment until everyone just reaches a compromised solution.
• 33:15
  This is also known as anchoring and adjustment uh mental heuristic.
• 33:22
  I don't know what that means.
• 33:24
  So um yeah, there's a lot of really great stuff on this.
• 33:28
  uh But it's hard.
• 33:31
  It's hard for me.
• 33:33
  I think it's difficult in general and
• 33:35
  You're really good at this.
• 33:39
  You're you're so good at this.
• 33:41
  at waiting for everybody else to their ideas.
• 33:48
  Well, thank you.
• 33:50
  I don't know that I'm always great at it because I do have a lot of ideas and opinions and sometimes.
• 33:58
  one of the things, and me too, so it's like, I think I know the answer here.
• 34:02
  I know the solution.
• 34:04
  And let's just open with it because, and let's focus on that, but that's the anchoring, right?
• 34:11
  And I'm sure at least 50 % of time, that's not the best solution.
• 34:16
  It's the first one I came up with.
• 34:18
  And if I don't anchor, we'll get some really out of the box thoughts.
• 34:25
  But let's say my original...
• 34:27
  idea that I keep to myself was the best idea, but someone else comes up with it.
• 34:35
  Right?
• 34:36
  Oh, tell me more.
• 34:39
  Yeah, let them.
• 34:40
  And then they're going to make sure it's successful versus, this came from the top.
• 34:47
  And it's another, a mandate from John until he reads another book and he's into that.
• 34:55
  It's way better to have an employee own it to come up with the idea and own it than for I think for it to come from the top for exactly those reasons.
• 35:06
  Yeah, if you can persuade them to come up with your idea.
• 35:10
  Yeah, right.
• 35:15
  ah what else do you have on listening?
• 35:20
  Come.
• 35:22
  How's your sign working?
• 35:24
  How's that working out this year?
• 35:27
  It, it, wait.
• 35:30
  why am I talking?
• 35:31
  It's a work in progress.
• 35:33
  Certainly have to, uh
• 35:39
  It's so important.
• 35:40
  just saw in a movie, uh, something, something similar.
• 35:46
  Or no, no, I saw on TikTok where it was like a congressional, you know, one of those things where they're drilling someone and they kept on interrupting and, you know, write
• 35:59
  your notes down and you'll have full time to, you know, speak.
• 36:04
  But, you know, I think I said this in the previous, I'll write my notes.
• 36:09
  I used to, if you...
• 36:14
  tell me about your vacation, I would immediately interrupt and say, I've been there and what a great place and da da.
• 36:22
  And then the next thing and then the next thing.
• 36:24
  I keep on wanna demonstrate, my God, we have an answer for that.
• 36:28
  I have a client that had the same thing and we did this and look at the great results.
• 36:34
  And meanwhile, we never got to maybe what the real reason they're calling us for.
• 36:41
  So by writing down, uh
• 36:44
  Scotland and service recovery paradox and boom, boom, boom.
• 36:49
  And then when it gets to my turn, most of those aren't important.
• 36:55
  They're not even relevant.
• 36:57
  Like I found out what the real pain is.
• 37:02
  And I never go back to those things that I would have interrupted and talked about and hijacked their momentum.
• 37:14
  So it's hard, it's hard.
• 37:16
  I have to do it.
• 37:17
  I have to practice it.
• 37:21
  Yeah, so for the highest level, that's kind of where we're at with the um listening.
• 37:30
  mean, there's so much more to it, but you gotta be willing to, ah everyone has a story.
• 37:41
  In order to truly serve people, need to like them and want to know their story.
• 37:49
  It could be the frontline janitor learning their story, making them feel heard.
• 37:59
  What about you?
• 38:00
  got any tips?
• 38:02
  um I think I've mentioned this before, one of my favorite quotes is, there are many times in your life.
• 38:11
  um
• 38:18
  There are what it's one of my favorite quotes and I can't remember what it is.
• 38:23
  You'll have a lot of opportunities in life to keep your mouth shut.
• 38:27
  Take advantage of every one.
• 38:30
  Yeah, you can't be listening if you're talking.
• 38:34
  I think in the book I have a quote by Gene Autry.
• 38:42
  don't know.
• 38:43
  It's not popping up now.
• 38:49
  Yeah, never miss a good time to keep your mouth shut or something.
• 38:53
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:55
  I find you learn a lot more when you listen.
• 38:58
  Yeah, and even in personal life, and it's taken me many, many, many decades, you know, we're just sitting around and at dinner or out on the patio and it could be professional,
• 39:12
  it could be personal, and I'm about to interject.
• 39:15
  I'm like, really what I have to interject isn't, I just wanted to be part of the conversation, but it's not a game changer.
• 39:26
  It's kind of just saying what you just said.
• 39:29
  that's, you know, what's the point?
• 39:32
  Like, you know, and the conversation is going just fine.
• 39:34
  It wasn't dying, you know, and so I try, you know, I teach my sons that because they have, you know, similarities to me where they're constantly, you know, interjecting and doing
• 39:47
  all that and, you know, it can become annoying.
• 39:52
  How you think some people are just born entertainers too?
• 39:56
  Yeah.
• 39:57
  and
• 39:58
  Yeah, you just have to know your spots.
• 40:02
  Like, you know, there's a, to me, there's, for me and my boys, there's a fine line between entertaining and being obnoxious or too much and needing to feel heard.
• 40:18
  Like, want to say, you know, I want to add on to what you just said, just because I want to feel heard.
• 40:25
  But didn't add anything to the conversation.
• 40:28
  Like that wasn't already said.
• 40:32
  And so it's actually nice and relieving when you just sit back and listen and you don't feel the pressure to always be chiming in.
• 40:45
  Do you know you're crossing that line before you crossed it?
• 40:50
  Or is it after when you're like,
• 40:53
  Yeah, I don't know.
• 40:55
  I only know before, like when I catch myself.
• 41:02
  I'm proud of myself that I didn't need to be.
• 41:05
  I don't even need to, you know, I could just listen.
• 41:08
  These are all great stories.
• 41:09
  I don't have to one up anybody and tell them the same thing happened to me in a different city or whatever.
• 41:17
  But I don't know how I know past, you know, post conversation other than they won't return my phone calls and go out with me anymore.
• 41:34
  Yeah.
• 41:38
  There are, I do enjoy a good storyteller though.
• 41:42
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, I think that's, I think there's spots, but you gotta pick them.
• 41:50
  You gotta pick them.
• 41:52
  what has been most helpful for you.
• 41:56
  how just like processing it.
• 42:03
  just thinking about it, focusing on the WAIT Why am I talking?
• 42:09
  um Having little drills in there.
• 42:13
  Maybe it comes with maturity, but I wish it would have came 30 years ago.
• 42:19
  And also, like the other thing is, I opened with, I only wanted to hang out socially with people that had the exact same interests as me, that wanted to talk sports and wanted to
• 42:37
  talk business, right?
• 42:39
  Those two things, my God.
• 42:41
  And if you didn't, it was just...
• 42:47
  miserable thinking that I would have to spend two hours.
• 42:52
  But learning FORD and utilizing that in a conversation.
• 42:58
  then when you talk about what you know, you don't learn anything.
• 43:06
  If I find someone tonight to talk to baseball, Cleveland Guardians, it'd be fun.
• 43:13
  But I wouldn't leave that conversation knowing one more thing that I already know about them.
• 43:19
  We debate who we should get rid of or trade or send down to the miners.
• 43:25
  But if I meet someone that their career is in music or anything across the thing, it's like, made you get it?
• 43:37
  Did you fall?
• 43:38
  Did you always know you wanted to get in it?
• 43:39
  What does that look like?
• 43:41
  And like you really learn.
• 43:43
  And the funny thing is that it's so often it'll come back.
• 43:48
  You know, so I have one example where a guy loved fly fishing and you know, I cringed at first.
• 43:58
  said, you know, why?
• 43:59
  What is, you know, it just doesn't seem.
• 44:01
  And he talked to me about everything I didn't want to know about fly fishing.
• 44:06
  But his passion, like, wow, you know, I guess I could see.
• 44:11
  If I was built that way, the calming on the water, blah, blah, which is certainly not my...
• 44:20
  I could see it, how therapeutic and all that is.
• 44:27
  But then there was like, it seemed like three or four months later, I was at a client's building, conducting a workshop.
• 44:38
  And the CEO invited me into his office.
• 44:42
  I always tell everyone, you got to get into someone's office because all the Ford in the world is in someone's office, right?
• 44:50
  Your degree, family pictures, your last vacation, trophies, whatever.
• 44:58
  And I got in there and it was a picture of him fly fishing.
• 45:02
  And because of that conversation I didn't want to have,
• 45:07
  I was able to say a couple things that sounded like I knew I was talking about that, you know, then he lit up and talked about fly fishing, you know?
• 45:22
  But had I not had that previous conversation, I would have totally avoided it because I didn't know the lingo or, you know, I didn't want to sound stupid.
• 45:32
  Yeah.
• 45:33
  So it's really about education.
• 45:37
  And everyone has a story.
• 45:39
  Right, Denise, how did you get to where you are today?
• 45:43
  Right, that's a movie, right?
• 45:46
  That, you know, and all these twists and turns and if you didn't, you know, do that, that wouldn't have ever happened.
• 45:53
  You wouldn't have met that person or, you know, anything like that.
• 45:59
  Well, an awareness.
• 46:03
  And being interested, curiosity.
• 46:06
  That was one of my words for the year a few years ago.
• 46:10
  Just be curious.
• 46:13
  but I also could be curious of why you mad at me.
• 46:19
  Like in a personal relationship, your kids, like, you you could, you know, I could easily be like, you're just overreacting and whatever, or be curious of, you know, what did I do
• 46:36
  here?
• 46:37
  What could I have done differently?
• 46:38
  So.
• 46:39
  If you don't know...
• 46:43
  she told you.
• 46:48
  Oh, those are great, great tips, great subjects, great things for all of us to work on.
• 46:54
  Hey, before we wrap up today, do you have anything to share with us for leading an extraordinary life?
• 47:02
  extraordinary?
• 47:04
  Do you have anything to share with us on living an extraordinary life?
• 47:09
  Yeah, so a few episodes ago, I don't know if it was the most recent, we talked about uh how I hate the term, I gave my best.
• 47:19
  um And this kind of follows that.
• 47:22
  uh The reality distortion field.
• 47:25
  Back when Apple was just a startup, one of the first things new employees were taught, sometimes a hard way, was that their leader, Steve Jobs, has a reality distortion field.
• 47:38
  The reality distortion field enabled jobs to inspire his team to change the course of computing history with a fraction of the resources of Xerox and IBM.
• 47:50
  They did the impossible because they didn't realize it was impossible.
• 47:55
  reality distortion field was a combination of jobs, charismatic style, an indomitable will and an eagerness to bend any fact to fit
• 48:07
  the purpose at hand.
• 48:09
  Even though Apple employees were aware of what Jobs was doing, they would eventually give up and go with it and end up doing the impossible.
• 48:20
  Steve Jobs' reality distortion field was a personal refusal to accept limitations that stood in the way of his ideas to convince himself and anyone on his team that anything was
• 48:32
  in fact possible.
• 48:35
  Each of us can create such a field.
• 48:37
  What we consider possible or impossible are merely the way we were pre-programmed and consensus thinking about artificial boundaries.
• 48:49
  What ideas and thoughts do you need to become unrealistic about?
• 48:56
  Probably many.
• 48:58
  Yeah, I love that.
• 49:01
  They do too.
• 49:01
  Very good.
• 49:02
  Where's that from?
• 49:05
  Ah.
• 49:09
  I don't know.
• 49:09
  It's in my book and the source where I got it is in there.
• 49:14
  It's in the employee experience.
• 49:18
  Yes.
• 49:19
  Yeah.
• 49:19
  Yeah.
• 49:20
  Yeah.
• 49:21
  The employee experience revolution.
• 49:23
  I could pull it up and probably find you the source.
• 49:25
  Do you need it?
• 49:26
  No, know if it's in the book.
• 49:29
  I just wondered.
• 49:30
  I was just curious.
• 49:32
  after one of the sentences.
• 49:35
  that's a, what is that at the end where you have to go find resources?
• 49:41
  I don't know.
• 49:43
  Exactly.
• 49:45
  All right, you got anything left, Denise?
• 49:48
  no, thank you.
• 49:48
  Thank you for your time today.
• 49:50
  Thanks for sharing so much.
• 49:54
  thanks listeners.
• 49:55
  We'll see you next time.