Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #878 Failed at School, Successful at Life: Tom O'Brien

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#878 Failed at School, Successful at Life: Tom O'Brien · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:09
Speaker 2: wants answers now.
0:10
Speaker 1: All this week on the Happy Families Podcast, fascinating conversations
0:13
Speaker 1: with people who had mixed experiences when it comes to
0:17
Speaker 1: high school, finishing year twelve, going to university, or perhaps not,
0:22
Speaker 1: as the case may be. And the purpose of these
0:25
Speaker 1: conversations is to highlight that yes school matters, Yes education
0:29
Speaker 1: is important, but it's not the be all and end all.
0:32
Speaker 1: And if you are a parent who is worried about
0:35
Speaker 1: your children and their education, I'm sharing stories all this
0:38
Speaker 1: week of remarkable people who have done incredible things in
0:41
Speaker 1: spite of the fact that school didn't work out so well.
0:45
Speaker 1: On Monday, we spoke to a man who runs charity
0:47
Speaker 1: in Adelaide, Ian Steel, Kickstart for Kids, helping tens of
0:52
Speaker 1: thousands of kids every single day across the state. On Tuesday,
0:56
Speaker 1: had a fascinating chat with Cam Barber, who mentors CEO's Fortune,
1:02
Speaker 1: five hundred Companies, Paramount Pictures and the rest. Didn't have
1:06
Speaker 1: the greatest school experience, in fact, spent most of it
1:08
Speaker 1: abroad so that he didn't have to really do school.
1:11
Speaker 1: On Wednesday, and incredible conversation with a woman who didn't
1:14
Speaker 1: finish high school but became an audio engineer for Prince
1:17
Speaker 1: and is now a professor at Berkeley College of Music
1:20
Speaker 1: in Boston. And today I'm so excited to tell you
1:24
Speaker 1: about a man by the name of Tom O'Brien. Tom
1:28
Speaker 1: never went to UNI either. In spite of that, he
1:31
Speaker 1: had a nine year career with Shell, ultimately moved to
1:33
Speaker 1: Asia and became an executive with a commodities group, which
1:38
Speaker 1: led to him retiring at forty one years of age.
1:42
Speaker 1: Now he runs retirement villagers, He consults to industry, and
1:46
Speaker 1: he has an absolutely powerful story to tell about education
1:49
Speaker 1: and about how life plays out in spite of us
1:53
Speaker 1: never quite knowing what's going to happen. Tom O'Brien, thank
1:56
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me on the Happy Families
1:57
Speaker 1: podcast for this chat.
1:58
Speaker 2: He's a pleasure justin. Thank you very much for having me.
2:01
Speaker 1: Take me back to the beginning. So you're born in
2:02
Speaker 1: the in Ireland. What was your family like, what was
2:06
Speaker 1: your background like, and what was your school experience like?
2:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Yeah, so fairly typical. My parents are
2:13
Speaker 2: from the West of Ireland, County Mayo and Galway. Basically
2:16
Speaker 2: sheep farmers, so you know, etching etching out a fairly
2:22
Speaker 2: sort of subsistence living almost you might say, in the
2:25
Speaker 2: wild west of Ireland. I started out at school where
2:30
Speaker 2: it was compulsory to speak the Irish language Gaelic. Can
2:34
Speaker 2: you imagine. I wasn't wasn't very good at that, to
2:37
Speaker 2: be honest. But then my parents moved to the UK,
2:41
Speaker 2: to London to sort of further their fortunes, and I
2:45
Speaker 2: went to a Catholic school as it was the only
2:47
Speaker 2: choice of state school where you know, I wasn't particularly
2:52
Speaker 2: sporty and I wasn't particularly academic, but I was quite competitive,
2:57
Speaker 2: so I did, you know, the girls in particular, I
2:59
Speaker 2: want to sort of try and beat them at at
3:02
Speaker 2: their marks. But I just don't think, I mean, yeah,
3:06
Speaker 2: why was I not that successful? I guess the attention
3:11
Speaker 2: span wasn't quite there. I think that's one thing. So
3:13
Speaker 2: I could do things for a short period of time
3:16
Speaker 2: very well, but I just didn't have the attention span
3:18
Speaker 2: to sort of carry it out over a long period.
3:21
Speaker 2: So indeed, as you say, when I reached year twelve
3:25
Speaker 2: in the UK we have a levels at that stage,
3:30
Speaker 2: I didn't do particularly well at a levels, and so
3:35
Speaker 2: I immediately jumped into the workforce and joined show International,
3:43
Speaker 2: filing bits of paper for a couple of years, I remember,
3:45
Speaker 2: but worked my way up from there. But I think
3:49
Speaker 2: one thing I want to mention in particular, and perhaps
3:53
Speaker 2: maybe of some interest to some of the people listening.
3:56
Speaker 2: I suppose those humble beginnings in the west of our
4:00
Speaker 2: and this is probably a story that a lot of
4:03
Speaker 2: immigrants here in Australia can relate to. It does provide
4:07
Speaker 2: you with a strong work ethic, and it provides you
4:11
Speaker 2: with a desire to be independent, to be in control
4:16
Speaker 2: of your own destiny, I suppose. And at the time
4:18
Speaker 2: I couldn't really articulate it, or I hadn't really thought
4:21
Speaker 2: about it too much, but it's definitely something that drove me.
4:26
Speaker 2: And it wasn't clear, I think, to your point, as
4:28
Speaker 2: in your introduction, it wasn't clear in which way it
4:32
Speaker 2: was going to drive me or what it was going
4:33
Speaker 2: to drive me to do. But I definitely had that
4:36
Speaker 2: work ethic in me, and I think it's stood me
4:39
Speaker 2: in really good stead. Tom.
4:40
Speaker 1: Were your parents concerned when you didn't go to university?
4:44
Speaker 1: Were your parents concerned about the fact that you didn't
4:46
Speaker 1: do so well when you finished your A levels, I
4:49
Speaker 1: don't think so.
4:51
Speaker 2: You know, neither of them had frankly reached tertiary education.
4:57
Speaker 2: They'd had a solid education in the West of Ireland.
5:00
Speaker 2: I think the education is the state education system. There's
5:02
Speaker 2: quite good. Also, by the way, I should mention, you know,
5:06
Speaker 2: strongly Catholic education as well. Maybe there's a bit of
5:09
Speaker 2: work ethic in that too, So I followed in their
5:12
Speaker 2: footsteps in that respect, and I think from from their
5:16
Speaker 2: perspective they could see that strong work ethic. And you know,
5:22
Speaker 2: by the time I was I finished school, I was
5:24
Speaker 2: already doing two part time jobs. I was working at
5:28
Speaker 2: the local supermarket and I think you know, I was
5:30
Speaker 2: working at a actually at a Catholic social club behind
5:34
Speaker 2: the bar, so they could see that I wasn't going
5:37
Speaker 2: to sit around and do nothing. And I think also
5:40
Speaker 2: they appreciated that, you know, not everybody is disposed towards
5:47
Speaker 2: academic study. And in fact, you know, I've got three
5:51
Speaker 2: children now and you know, I can certainly see various
5:56
Speaker 2: outcomes in them, and at least one of them is
6:00
Speaker 2: is quite similar to me in that respect. So not
6:02
Speaker 2: a strong academic, but it's got a good work ethic,
6:06
Speaker 2: and I think my parents could see that in me,
6:09
Speaker 2: and therefore I don't think they were that concerned.
6:11
Speaker 1: Work Ethic is one thing, but there also has to
6:13
Speaker 1: be the capacity to do certain kinds of work, like
6:15
Speaker 1: we all have certain intrinsic strengths, proclivities, tendencies. You spent
6:22
Speaker 1: I think you said, nine years with Shell, and so
6:26
Speaker 1: you've obviously gone from filing paper. There's been some sort
6:29
Speaker 1: of progression. What were you good at and why did
6:31
Speaker 1: Shell hang on to you for nine years and move
6:33
Speaker 1: you up the ladder bit by bit by bit right?
6:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was so definitely that that work ethic was
6:40
Speaker 2: there so they could see what Lots of my peers
6:44
Speaker 2: were out, would finish exactly on time and rush out
6:48
Speaker 2: to go and have after dinner, after work drinks. I
6:53
Speaker 2: was often the guy sitting there just plowing through stuff,
6:57
Speaker 2: just just wanting to get stuff done. You know. I
7:02
Speaker 2: guess in a way, I felt like I didn't have
7:05
Speaker 2: a safety net, so that there was that there was
7:07
Speaker 2: that desire in me and I and I was also
7:10
Speaker 2: very very clear about what I wanted from Shell, So
7:15
Speaker 2: it was a two way street. When I joined I
7:19
Speaker 2: answered an advert in the newspaper and what I could
7:25
Speaker 2: see of Shell, I did my research. It's a global company,
7:28
Speaker 2: had offices in every country in the world, pretty much
7:30
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of employees. It also had it was
7:34
Speaker 2: involved in so many different sectors. I know, you might think, oh,
7:36
Speaker 2: it's a one dimensional company. It's it's petrol, but actually
7:40
Speaker 2: it's lots of things. It's it's engineering, it's research, it's
7:44
Speaker 2: human resources. It's yes, of course, you know, directly involved
7:50
Speaker 2: in extraction of commodities, but it's also refining and shipping
7:55
Speaker 2: and retail and marketing and so many different things. So
7:59
Speaker 2: so it really appears to me that I would find
8:03
Speaker 2: again leaving school not really knowing what I was particularly
8:07
Speaker 2: good at or what I was particularly striving for. But
8:12
Speaker 2: if I joined a company that pretty much did everything everywhere,
8:16
Speaker 2: I'd find a place for myself. And so it was
8:19
Speaker 2: a two way street. It was, you know, I wanted
8:23
Speaker 2: something from Shell, they wanted something from me. We had
8:26
Speaker 2: a nice meeting. I suppose we came to an understanding.
8:31
Speaker 1: I say, Tom, I want to talk to you about
8:35
Speaker 1: the process of moving from Shell, this massive international company,
8:39
Speaker 1: to a startup in Singapore with ten people. But just
8:43
Speaker 1: before I ask you about that in twenty twenty three,
8:47
Speaker 1: could you still get the kind of opportunity, the same
8:50
Speaker 1: start that you got with Shell without having gone to Uni.
8:55
Speaker 1: Some people might hear a story like this and say, oh,
8:57
Speaker 1: but the world's different now, are they right?
9:01
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a really good question. Justin it's a really
9:03
Speaker 2: good point because I actually had this conversation with my
9:06
Speaker 2: youngest son probably a few days ago. He was feeling
9:12
Speaker 2: a little bit, perhaps despondent. So he's now in his
9:15
Speaker 2: second year of university and he's the least academic of
9:19
Speaker 2: my children. But he posed that exact question to me.
9:23
Speaker 2: He said, Oh, it was different in your time. It
9:26
Speaker 2: was possible then, it's not possible now. But I think
9:29
Speaker 2: on the contrary, And I said to him, you know,
9:33
Speaker 2: I think the same opportunities, if not more, exist today.
9:38
Speaker 2: And probably his despondency was coming more from his view
9:44
Speaker 2: that it was a daunt He's at a tipping point,
9:47
Speaker 2: a daunting point in his life, and it seems a
9:50
Speaker 2: bit scary. But actually, you know, from my own experience
9:54
Speaker 2: and looking at all three of my children, you know
9:57
Speaker 2: they have got all of the tools that they need
10:01
Speaker 2: to succeed, and and it's not obvious to them necessarily,
10:06
Speaker 2: but I can see it in them, and I think
10:10
Speaker 2: you know often that we tend to look in words
10:14
Speaker 2: and be a little bit fearful about what's what's coming next,
10:20
Speaker 2: But in actual facts, I think, just just trust, trust
10:24
Speaker 2: in what you're doing, and keep keep at it because
10:29
Speaker 2: eventually you'll find that thing that that really inspires you
10:32
Speaker 2: and motivates you. And once you find that thing, then
10:36
Speaker 2: you've got the secret to success. In my opinion, I'm.
10:38
Speaker 1: Going to pick that threat up again shortly. Let's return
10:41
Speaker 1: to your move from Shell to a startup. Lots of risk, involved,
10:45
Speaker 1: lots of uncertainty. Yeah, how did you weigh that up
10:48
Speaker 1: and get me through the story?
10:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's it's a good one. Because that
10:53
Speaker 2: was my zipping point. Effectively. I was in a very
10:57
Speaker 2: comfortable position in Shell. As I say, I was actually
11:00
Speaker 2: coming up to my tenth anniversary in Shell. Literally it
11:03
Speaker 2: was weeks to go, and I remember the company. So
11:07
Speaker 2: I was sitting in Singapore. I'd been living in Singapore
11:09
Speaker 2: for a year. I'd met my wife in Shell in London,
11:13
Speaker 2: who's from Adelaide, and we'd moved to Singapore together and
11:17
Speaker 2: we hadn't had children at that stage, and the company
11:23
Speaker 2: had offered me a position in Tokyo, and I thought
11:27
Speaker 2: to myself, it really forced me to make a decision
11:31
Speaker 2: about possibly, for the first time in my life, really
11:35
Speaker 2: where I wanted to go and what I wanted to
11:37
Speaker 2: do and kind of plan the next ten twenty years
11:42
Speaker 2: or even even longer. It's the first time I'd ever
11:44
Speaker 2: done it. So that's again I come back to, you know,
11:47
Speaker 2: if you're eighteen or twenty or whatever, I wouldn't worry
11:50
Speaker 2: about it too much because I had no clue at
11:53
Speaker 2: that point. But by this time I was in my
11:55
Speaker 2: late twenties, and certainly I felt like this was a
12:00
Speaker 2: this was a fork in the road for me. I
12:01
Speaker 2: really had to make a decision. I could have stayed
12:05
Speaker 2: with Shell, being very very comfortable. They're very generous to
12:08
Speaker 2: their expatriates. They give you housing and school allowances and
12:13
Speaker 2: everything that you can possibly imagine, So would have been
12:16
Speaker 2: very comfortable. And I could project myself forward in Shell
12:19
Speaker 2: ten or twenty years and imagine that I would be
12:22
Speaker 2: a middle management sort of level and very very comfortable,
12:25
Speaker 2: so I could map out that route quite easily. Or alternatively,
12:31
Speaker 2: I could jump onto this kind of startup company, A
12:35
Speaker 2: bit of a roll of the dice, admittedly, but it
12:39
Speaker 2: felt like I would be more in control of my destiny.
12:44
Speaker 2: So rather than relying on the big company and I
12:48
Speaker 2: do what they say and I go where they want
12:49
Speaker 2: me to go, I actually take control and say, Okay,
12:55
Speaker 2: I'm going to make a kind of life changing decision.
13:00
Speaker 2: And yes, it is a risk because this company is
13:03
Speaker 2: complete opposite to Shell. It's tiny, it's new. You know,
13:08
Speaker 2: it hasn't been around for long, so goodnesses how much
13:10
Speaker 2: longer it's going to last. But in a way win
13:16
Speaker 2: lose or win or lose. In a way, I couldn't
13:19
Speaker 2: fail because I'd taken a grip of my life and
13:25
Speaker 2: dragged it in a direction that I thought was right
13:28
Speaker 2: and was going to be successful. And even if that
13:31
Speaker 2: didn't prove to be the case, I would not die wondering.
13:36
Speaker 2: So it felt like a very invigorating decision, to be
13:40
Speaker 2: perfectly honest with you, Although it was a risk, there's
13:42
Speaker 2: no question about that.
13:43
Speaker 1: But what I'm hearing you say is that they still
13:47
Speaker 1: let people who don't have university degrees make decisions like that.
13:52
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And in fact, you know I think that I
13:57
Speaker 2: mentioned it a little bit earlier, not having a safe
14:00
Speaker 2: the net. So I think many people view a tertiary
14:04
Speaker 2: education as a safety net. You know, if I go
14:08
Speaker 2: down a certain career path and if it doesn't work out,
14:12
Speaker 2: I have this, I have this qualification that will get
14:17
Speaker 2: me somewhere else, so I can't you know, there's not
14:20
Speaker 2: the risk of failure is quite is quite low. But
14:23
Speaker 2: in a way, if you don't have that, and I'm
14:25
Speaker 2: not saying it's good or it's bad, but certainly it's
14:29
Speaker 2: it's it's far from fatal. In a way, it forces
14:33
Speaker 2: you to really push yourself and examine yourself and work
14:37
Speaker 2: out what is it that you want to do. And
14:41
Speaker 2: it's not just a piece of paper exercise. This has
14:47
Speaker 2: got real implications.
14:49
Speaker 1: As a result of the decisions you made. You were
14:52
Speaker 1: placed in a situation where the original owner of the
14:55
Speaker 1: business brought you and the other partners out. That's where
15:00
Speaker 1: a retirement win fall came to you in your very
15:03
Speaker 1: early forties, which is a situation that many people can't
15:06
Speaker 1: even comprehend. As a result of that, though all of
15:09
Speaker 1: your children have had the privilege of a great education, yeah,
15:13
Speaker 1: if one of them has decided that they didn't want
15:14
Speaker 1: to go to UNI. How would you feel about that?
15:17
Speaker 1: Or if one of your kids said I'm dropping out
15:18
Speaker 1: it's just not doing it for me. Yeah, what would
15:21
Speaker 1: you respond with?
15:23
Speaker 2: Look, it's very topical because I have, as I say,
15:28
Speaker 2: sort of with the three children I have. I call
15:32
Speaker 2: it a social experiment. In a way, all of the
15:36
Speaker 2: outcomes are represented. So I've got my oldest son, who
15:41
Speaker 2: you know, is very much an academic and a high achiever,
15:45
Speaker 2: and he's done a six year double degree mcanical Engineering.
15:49
Speaker 2: And in a way he's going full circle. He's about
15:52
Speaker 2: to graduate in a couple of weeks and he has
15:56
Speaker 2: just accepted a job with you know, a large engineering
16:00
Speaker 2: firm in the UK, Rolls Warst Aerospace. So in a
16:06
Speaker 2: way he goes full circle back to the UK where
16:08
Speaker 2: I started. But but but in a in a very
16:11
Speaker 2: different way. My daughter is about to finish a geology degree.
16:17
Speaker 2: She's somewhere in between in terms of academic But it's
16:19
Speaker 2: my youngest son who probably you know, is the least
16:22
Speaker 2: academic and and and poses exactly these questions to me.
16:26
Speaker 2: I mean, he is doing a degree and he has
16:28
Speaker 2: he has said to me, you know, I think actually
16:31
Speaker 2: this is a little bit pointless, and why am I
16:35
Speaker 2: doing this? And you know, I don't see the relevance
16:40
Speaker 2: of it, and and and clearly he doesn't enjoy the
16:43
Speaker 2: actual study itself. So that's I think that's a lot
16:46
Speaker 2: of people could probably empathize. And I've said to him, Look,
16:52
Speaker 2: you know, I've said a couple of things. Okay, So
16:56
Speaker 2: first of all, in a way, the bar is set
16:59
Speaker 2: higher for him because because he has had all of
17:01
Speaker 2: the privileges that you describe. He went to a very
17:05
Speaker 2: good private school. Not saying that that state schools are
17:09
Speaker 2: not good, but it was a good school. He does
17:12
Speaker 2: not have the excuse of not being given the opportunity,
17:18
Speaker 2: so said, I think it's encumbent upon you to having
17:22
Speaker 2: been given that opportunity, to put in the effort to
17:27
Speaker 2: at least go as far as you possibly can go
17:30
Speaker 2: and get the fruits of that opportunity. Because what I
17:34
Speaker 2: don't want to see is throwing the towel in. I
17:40
Speaker 2: wanted to see the desire to finish the thing, finish
17:45
Speaker 2: with flying colors or not. I don't care. I mean,
17:48
Speaker 2: I'll take a d any day of the week, as
17:50
Speaker 2: long as you've worked hard for it. But I hate
17:54
Speaker 2: a B that you've just cruised through. So I have
17:58
Speaker 2: that conversation with him quite regularly, and he gets it
18:02
Speaker 2: and he he he accepts it. But what I also
18:05
Speaker 2: do see in him is that same work ethic that
18:08
Speaker 2: I had. He's doing two or three jobs, his coffee jobs,
18:13
Speaker 2: he works on the weekend, he's doing a two day internship.
18:17
Speaker 2: So I see him putting in that effort, and I
18:21
Speaker 2: think that's that's critical. But as I say that, in
18:25
Speaker 2: a way, the qualification itself is not the most important thing,
18:30
Speaker 2: because not everybody is an academic. I don't think I'm
18:33
Speaker 2: an academic. But training yourself to to put in the
18:37
Speaker 2: effort something that's worth doing, is worth doing well, don't
18:42
Speaker 2: don't throw the towel, and don't give up. Those are
18:44
Speaker 2: the sorts of things I really don't want to see.
18:47
Speaker 2: And at the end of the at the end of
18:48
Speaker 2: his degree. You know, as I say, failure or success
18:53
Speaker 2: can be measured in many, many different ways. It's not
18:55
Speaker 2: simply in a piece of paper. It's the experience, it's
18:59
Speaker 2: the effort you put in. It's being proud of yourself
19:02
Speaker 2: in what you've achieved. So that's what I'm looking for.
19:05
Speaker 2: That's the conversation I have with him, he goes away
19:08
Speaker 2: resentally happy with it. That's all I can say.
19:10
Speaker 1: Effort and doing hard things is the mantra that I'm
19:14
Speaker 1: really hearing this conversation. So as families grapple with the
19:18
Speaker 1: challenges of year twelve exams at the moment, or I
19:21
Speaker 1: mean even hearing you talk about this, just the ongoing
19:24
Speaker 1: wrestle that education conversations create from the earliest years of
19:28
Speaker 1: schooling right through to the university years. Are there any
19:31
Speaker 1: final ideas that you share about kids, education and the future.
19:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think a number of things. I think
19:42
Speaker 2: as I say, don't be too daunty, don't be fearful
19:47
Speaker 2: for the future. I would be surprised if anybody has
19:52
Speaker 2: not felt like that at some point, and especially at
19:56
Speaker 2: this critical time. But it's not a reason and to panic,
20:01
Speaker 2: it's not a reason to internalize. It's it's a great
20:05
Speaker 2: time to share that with your friends and family and
20:08
Speaker 2: discuss it, because chances are they've either been through it
20:12
Speaker 2: themselves or perhaps even are going through it themselves right now.
20:16
Speaker 2: It's it's not albeit that we we are led to
20:22
Speaker 2: believe that, you know, year twelve is going to be
20:25
Speaker 2: the make or break or life changing, and it can be.
20:30
Speaker 2: But whatever the outcome is, it's it's manageable. And it's
20:37
Speaker 2: not the end or the beginning. It's just part of
20:40
Speaker 2: the journey. So frankly speaking, it's it's it's really not
20:45
Speaker 2: something to get despondent about or fearful about. If anything,
20:49
Speaker 2: you know, when you're at that age, you've got everything
20:54
Speaker 2: to look forward to. And I can't emphasize that enough.
20:57
Speaker 2: And I it's you know, so I wish I could
21:01
Speaker 2: be eighteen again, as I'm sure you do, justin because
21:05
Speaker 2: it's I think there are as many opportunities today, if
21:08
Speaker 2: not more, and to be able to just throw yourself
21:11
Speaker 2: into that and look forward to it. And if anything,
21:14
Speaker 2: I think you know, especially you know, I've got a
21:17
Speaker 2: girl and boys. If you're a girl, the opportunities are
21:22
Speaker 2: arguably more than they've ever been. And not to say
21:25
Speaker 2: that the boys don't. The boys still have all of
21:27
Speaker 2: those opportunities. That don't use that as an excuse, but
21:30
Speaker 2: the girls are having arguably more opportunities than they've ever had.
21:33
Speaker 2: So I don't accept at all that there's less available today.
21:40
Speaker 2: I think there's as much available now as has ever been.
21:43
Speaker 2: I think it's super exciting. I think there's so such
21:45
Speaker 2: a variety of things that people can get involved in
21:48
Speaker 2: that everybody should look forward irrespective of grades, irrespective of
21:54
Speaker 2: their academic outcomes, everyone should look forward with real excitement
21:59
Speaker 2: and posit activity. So yeah, I wish good light to everybody.
22:04
Speaker 2: Frankly speaking, Tom, you've been wonderfully generous. Thank you so
22:07
Speaker 2: much for sharing your story with us age and pleasure.
22:09
Speaker 1: Justin Tom O'Brien, dad to three kids, a former executive
22:13
Speaker 1: with a company that ended up setting him up for
22:16
Speaker 1: retirement in his early forties, and university. Well, didn't go
22:20
Speaker 1: to university and life turned out quite remarkably well, didn't it.
22:25
Speaker 1: I hope that these conversations have been valuable for you
22:27
Speaker 1: as you consider what education means for you and your family.
22:30
Speaker 1: Tomorrow we talk to a university academic who is studying
22:33
Speaker 1: what happens when kids don't finish your twelve? What are
22:37
Speaker 1: the average outcomes and how can finishing your twelve advantage
22:43
Speaker 1: your kids no matter how they feel about school. The
22:46
Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin RULANDT for Bridge Media.
22:49
Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd like more
22:51
Speaker 1: information about how to make your family happy, yet, we'd
22:53
Speaker 1: love for you to visit us at happy families dot com.
22:55
Speaker 1: Do a