Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S4 E26 Spy Crimes

Transcript

S4 E26 Spy Crimes · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Betty, Hello everyone.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Hello, mister Oldmaiden.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know woo who you know?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Thirty seven is double H's lucky number because it just is.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: But and he met me when he was thirty seven. Well,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, but that's not it was already his lucky number.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I just happened to fall into.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: The I'm not a huge fan of that is true.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Oh your song was wonderful. I love it.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you what my son Jeff said. He's like, oh,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I've seen you do worse.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: Oh oh, well, you know you gotta have somebody who's honest.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: I guess I don't know. So that's what counts.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: And that was a cold read, no practicing, and lots
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: of pain meds for the kidney stone. So it was
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: And as I told my daughter in love, it's going
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: to live on the internet forever because I'm trying to
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: teach my granddaughter don't put stuff out there that you
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: don't want out there forever. So it's out there forever, lady,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: and Gray has been a member for three months.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: What thank you? Those anniversaries are coming in.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I are and it looks like I bet my granddaughter
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: is Jasper tonight. So Elizabeth, this is an adult show.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: You should probably log off.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: I'll make sure that I don't say nope, you know,
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: and I'm not gonna make those promises, not gonna her mom, Mom,
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Scott it under kidding. We have we have a lot tonight. Uh,
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: And it's so funny. You're like burning up and I
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: am like wearing a long sleeve in socks tonight, so
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: well in pants pants are I'm wearing pants too? So
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: don't you know everybody get so excited at once.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: It's cool outside. I mean, we actually have a cool front.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: It was only seventy eight today, so it was cool.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: But I have someone that lives in my house, my
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: mother in law lives her now, and she gets cold
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: if fits below the house.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Sure, Jan, So.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna unius that I have pants on. So
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not even gonna lie because I do not have
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: pants on. I have shorts on.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think I think maybe we should
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: probably do the warning right off the bat. Do you
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: think maybe this episode contains graphic content, maybe adult language
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: probably and is not suitable for all listeners always?
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: So can we just put that up that it's a
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: standard if you come to TCWT media, just know this
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: is going to happen, right.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: I like that? Wow? Do you like that better? I
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: like that better.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I got my hair highlighted today.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Hey look at you.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: And somebody was not so nice that sent a message
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: on Facebook after midday missing on Monday and said I
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: might need to be for getting my roots done.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: Wow was that job?
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: No? I texted the hairstylist and I said, Jin, I
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: think I need to come, Oh my god quick.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: So yes, it's the I'm noticing that with this like
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: growing out right, and like I've got I've got a
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: lot of length back here now, but I do tonight.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: I do. Usually it's like up in a Usually it's like,
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: but there's it's a lot. It's a lot. There's a
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: lot there.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Just wait until it turns ground.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Oh no, That's what I was saying, is like, now
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: that it's growing out, it's looking a lot grayer.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: And uh, I have not met a man that didn't
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: look good with gray hair. I mean women. I've seen
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: a few women that look beautiful with gray hair that
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: I've not seen a man that didn't look good with
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: gray hair. So own it.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: I'll take it because this is also right here. I
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: got these these are getting Grayer and Grayer and Grayer.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: I know, you know, I got one patch for each kid,
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: and they showed up right after they were born, so
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: you know, here we are.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that might not be one hundred percent appropriate,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I won't say that.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: That are on point, lady.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: You read it out?
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: Sorry, so I know, sorry, go ahead.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: I think we have a lot of delays going on. Yeah,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: I try to read out the comments so that when
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: we upload us as a podcast, people aren't going, what
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the heck are they talking about? So just letting everybody
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: know who's watching and listening. Later, we try to read
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: out the comments.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say something.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: And then when you have your next kid, do you
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: think you'll get another?
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: Patrick Ray, I won't get another kid.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: How do you know?
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: I'm good with two? Thank you. I know how things work,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: you know, things happen. Yeah, I'm hitting the cusp of
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: that age where for a while I wasn't going to
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: go take care of that. But I'm getting to the
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: point where I think I'm getting old enough where I
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: don't know if I would want another. And it's not
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: just like it's a joint choice. Obviously it's not just right.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, oh, I wasn't worried that you were making
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: the decision for her.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: I was no, I would never do.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: But I met somebody a couple weeks ago and they've
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: been married longer than me and Double H. And they
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: have three but they're Double H's age. I mean, we
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: are fifty sixty. Guess what they have a surprise?
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: Oh whoa, she's fourty.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And he's no.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying like, and I'll leave it at this
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: one statement. When Jamie was born in twenty sixteen, I said,
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: if I didn't already have him, I probably wouldn't have
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: a kid. At the moment, I would not have another
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: child right now. It's not that it's not that people should.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: You totally should. This is just me. This is my
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: only thought. It's just already I'm not I have too,
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: I don't need I don't need more. I think you
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: totally should. In fact, good God, if there's anything that
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: has proven that we need people to raise good people now.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: So but that's where I'll leave that. So if you
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: are having a baby, just make sure that you know
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: they're good peoples. That's all we can do these days.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: It's always the only control we have at all.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: The only thing I'm gonna counter that with, Like my
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: grandmother told me because she wanted a Baker's doesn't Thank
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: god she didn't make it. That if you stop and
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: wait for your finances to be perfect, in the world
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: to be perfect, we would have no children. So when
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: you think about that, that's when I say, if you
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: can do it, do it. But just raise them to
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: be good humans. And if they're not good humans, work
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: really hard to make them better.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's why you're here, right,
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: You're here to learn all the bad ways to do
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: things so that you don't do them.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, would I be if I got pregnant? Absolutely not.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Do you know how rich we would be? I got
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: no plumbing, So for me to get pregnant, oh very well.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: That fascinating. I feel like it's double h that have
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: to be getting pregnant.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Then we would be in Hawaii doing our live streams
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: or maybe Bally.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Hey, yo, shoot, we'd have a compound the TCWTC Uh.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Should we introduce what we're drinking and then move into
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: the news or you want to do news and then drinking.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Let's do news first because I need that video?
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: All right? Well, ask and thou shalt receipt.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: A face paint job?
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: What do you think? I don't watch the news because
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: we've seen this doing every day. I mean every day.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: I don't think this kid taps out on that flora
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: people wanted to be It's just like, dude, you got
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: the best barrels ever. Dude, just let'm out here. Uh,
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: what's what's the best kind of firework to buy? Wouldn't
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: you like to know? Weather Boy? Where are your parents? Boy?
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Ain't that the truth? What a question? Wouldn't you like
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: to know? Weather Boy?
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know why. It just puts me
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: in the mood to watch that video. What I'm gonna
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: tell on myself that when I was having a bad
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: day last week with the kidneys some of the stuff,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and I was laying in bed, I pulled out my iPad,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I went to one of our shows and I played
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: that little clip just to make me get better. And
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: then I got the giggles and I would just giggle
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: for like an hour from all the pain meds. But
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: it was so good, so like it got me in
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the mood, got me out of feeling sorry for myself.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: So no Ah, but.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: Would you like to start and we'll just alternate as
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: we go.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna tell y'all right, off the bat, my
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: first story is my actual nightmare. Okay, it is my nightmare.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Zoo celebrates yes, you heard me right, celebrates releasing thousands
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: of giant spiders that grow to be the size of
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: a human hand. What in the absolute hell, guys? So
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: the Chester Zoo in England reports that the fin raft
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: spiders just had the biggest mating season on record. Okay,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: why are we celebrating this? But it's okay. They released
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: thousands of them?
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: About it?
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Because no, don't put up the picture. Take the picture down.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: I've had a house down for that. Mhm.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: You burn a house down for that the size of
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: a hand. Can you imagine a spider and they released
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: them in the wild, yep? Can you imagine going camping
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: and you wake up and that spiders on your face?
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Amy? Can?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Okay? Amy for justice? Ass Amy? I love you, but
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: not the spiders. I let one spider.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: You're fired.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I let one spider live out in our garden every year,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: one of those big green and yellow banana spiders. We
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: name her Charlotte. The rest of them, I killed them,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I mean okay, it's I can live with myself.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I'm okay, I believe you.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I can put myself. Gotta remember I had a spider
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: bite earlier this year, so no, and it was down
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: towards the cookie nether runs. No spiders. No, okay, go fight,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: move on. Mm hmm nope, mm hm.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I have pictures, but I won't share them.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: You Nope, not that kind of show. I don't want
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: to go back to training.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: You can't see the cookie. Not that kind of girl.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: What you got for us?
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I've got Okay, So the first one's there. Yeah,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: all right, so here we go. Two former Missouri officers
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: were charged in separate, unconnected cases in federal court this
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: week over allegations that they illegally searched women's phones during
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: traffic stops to obtain intimate explicit images on the devices.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Julian Alcala, twenty nine, who was employed as a police
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: officer with the city of Florissant, is charged with twenty
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: counts of deprivation of rights and a count of destroying
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: records in a federal investigation. The US Attorney for Eastern
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: District of Missouri announced the Thursday. This deprivation of rights
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: specifically refers to being free from unreasonable search and seizure.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: According to the indictment, al Khala would take women's phones
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: during traffic stops to confirm their insurance coverage or vehicle registration,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: but he searched their phones for nude images and took
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: photos on his own personal phone. You're muted just in case,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: in case you wanted to say something, Okay, that is
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: a violation.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna say that is like a peeping tom
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: That is like somebody peeking in your window.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Well, and he went one step further because in one case,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: authorities allege Alcohola texted himself a video and then deleted
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: evidence of the text from that person's phone, and he
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: is accused of doing that to twenty women from February
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: sixth to May eighteenth. Now, the police department said in
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: a statement Wednesday that it was completely unaware of the allegations.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Alcohola had passed a meticulous and thorough background investigation during
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: the hiring process, and the department had not received a
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: complaint about him in the eleven months of his employment.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: We are disgusted at this behavior, which is a complete
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: betrayal of the values we uphold and in no way
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: reflects the professionalism and integrity of our dedicated officers. The
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: department said, we recognize the gravity of this breach of
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: trust and its impact on our community. He resigned in
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: June after the FBI contacted the police department about an
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: investigation into him. The police department statement said civil lawsuits
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: have also been filed The Jane Doe was pulled over? Oh,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: hold on a lawsuit? Okay? So. Civil lawsuits have been
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: filed against Alcohola and the city, including one that echoes
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: an allegation may by federal prosecutors. A lawsuit filed in
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: the same district court last month alleges that Alcola sent
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: himself a private video made by a couple having sex.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: The Jane Doe was pulled over in February and Alcohola
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: took her phone back to his vehicle. When she presented
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: the insurance information she stored on the device, the lawsuit claims.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: It says she noticed there was a deleted text message
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: from the time of the stop. Alcollis sent himself the
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: video and deleted the message in an effort to hide
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: his tracks. The suit said. He is also accused of
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: obtaining a nude photo from her phone in the same stop.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: So you can see deleted text messages on your phone.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's a deleted folder and stuff sometimes, okay,
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: so so. The US Attorney's Office also filed a similar
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: but unconnected case Tuesday against a former Missouri State Highway
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Patrol trooper. I don't know what you're drinking in Missouri,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: but WHOA David McKnight thirty nine, was indicted in the
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: same federal court on nine counts of deprivation of rights
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: and one count of destroying records. They allege he illegally
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: searched the phones of nine women from September twenty twenty
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: three to August twenty twenty four while he was working
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: for the highway Patrol. According to the Attorney's office, McKnight
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: used his own phone to take pictures of nude images
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: on the women's phones after they gave him the devices
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: to show their insurance or identification information. Most of the
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: women were pulled over for traffic stops. He joined in
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty one. He resigned from the patrol August twenty six.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: Is no longer a member of our agency. He surrendered
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: his state peace officer license, which means he can't work
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: as a Missouri law enforcement officer. Again, he was taken
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: into federal custody, judged at a bout of ten thousand dollars.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: He pleaded not guilty. Yeah. Basically, Ashley Johnson, who's a
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Special Agent in charge of the FBI and Saint Louis Division,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: told people do not hesitate to report uncomfortable encounters with officers.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: The FBI investigated both cases. The US Attorney's Office release said,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: and Johnson said, if you feel your civil rights have
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: been violated, contact the FBI. Investigating criminal conduct by a
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: law enforcement officer is among our top priorities.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, first of all, I would never give
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: them my phone.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. I mean they can take a
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: picture with their phone of my insurance.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: And if they don't have a search warrant, they can
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: handcuff me. They are not getting my phone, not that
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I have any of those pictures on my phone, but
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: that's a violation of privacy.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, hundred percent. So that one wasn't as fun
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: as my other one, but I felt like it was important.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: It's a it's a it's a terrible message, but it's
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: a good lesson in the end.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: So I have a question, do you have to let
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: them take your phone if the insurance card is on it.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: No, it's not like they scan it or anything. They're
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: just entering the information into the system.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, because my thought is the computer is back in
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: their car, because normally they take your insurance card and
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: they go back to the patrol car and put it
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: in their phones or their personal phones. They are not
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: County state phones, so they can't take a picture of
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: it because then they have work stuff on.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: I see police making pictures of evidence and all the
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: time with their personal phones, and then they use it
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: later in their files or whatever. But like, all they
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: need to do, they can take a picture. See, all
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: they're doing is going back there and typing in your
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: license plate and then looking up the number, the policy
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: number and connecting it to your car and making sure
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: that that matches. Right, So I mean and and and
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: it'll bring it up if it's active or inactive and
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: things like that. But it's they they yeah, it's it's
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: a work phone, even if it's their phone, right.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing because with the Freedom of Information Act,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: if they take a picture on their personal phone. That
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: means their phone is now subject to those things. Because
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I know with me being a volunteer for the county,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: for the emergency response team, That's why I'm like not
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: doing certain things because that would make Can you imagine
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: if they ever took my phone and they looked at
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: my search history with what I do for the podcast?
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you know, I mean the easiest thing.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Just print it out, put it in your glove box,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: put in your wallet, put it in the console. Don't
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: even show them your phone. That's just my two cents.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: I agree, I agree.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Well, my next one is absolutely adorable, and I am
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: heartbroken that I was not there when this happened. Wild
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: raccoon drops through ceiling next to Spirit Airline gate at
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: LaGuardia Airport in New York City.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: So.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: In a viral video of the incident, the confused raccoon
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: dangles from a wire after falling from the ceiling. Travelers
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: flying from New York City LaGuardia Airport were in for
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: surprise when a furry critter dropped from the ceiling near
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: a Spirit Airlines gate. So the raccoon caused chaos at
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: LaGuardia on November fourth around eight am when it fell
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: through the crack in the ceiling and it hung from
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: a wire before tumbling into the terminal's floor. Ah So,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: but no injuries were reported, and there have been no
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: other raccoon sightings. But they did safely locate the raccoon
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: and they released it outside.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: But I'm well, I'm glad they were able to get
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: rid of it, or at least release it.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I'm so sad I wasn't there to see it because
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I would have pulled out my crackers and I've been
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: like here, a little guy here, a little guy here.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: You know, that would have been not dangerous at all.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, raccoons are not extra scary. It's the rats that
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: are extra scary. In New York City, I have seen
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: a rat carry a like two pieces of pizza at
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: one time. Those are scary. Raccoons are cute, and I'm
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: sticking by it.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Okay. Well, uh sad uh? You like chocolate, right?
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I love? Don't run it for like chocolate, lint link
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: lindor truffles in lint chocolate.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Well, in a bid to dodge
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: a US lawsuits, Swiss chocolateer Lind and spruingly has scuppered
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: its own claims about the excellence of its products, a
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: cornerstone of its marketing strategy. Lint has unsuccessfully tried to
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: end a class action lawsuit in the United States launched
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: in February twenty twenty three following an article by a
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: US consumer association questioning the presence of heavy metals in
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: dark chocolate bars from several manufacturers, including two bars produced
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: by Lints. In its defense strategy, the company has dismantled
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: its own promises of quality, claimed the Swiss newspaper En
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: m sondhag Raking. Over a September US court decision, the
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: chocolateiers lawyers maintained that the words excellence and expertly crafted
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: with the finest ingredients printed on its bars were unactionable puffery,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: according to a decision by the Eastern Eastern District of
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: New York District Court. The court, which dismissed Lint's motion,
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: defined product puffery as exaggerated advertising, blustering and boasting upon
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: which no reasonable buyer would rely. The Swiss newspaperl attempt
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: said Lint was walking a tightrope with this daring defense.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: The high profit margins are due to the fact that
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: consumers are willing to pay more for its industrial chocolates
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: because of their quality image. The court decision said. The
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: plaintiffs brought the class action against Lint alleging that the
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: firm deceptively marketed their dark chocolate bars is expertly crafted
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: with the finest ingredients and safe as well as delightful,
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: when the bars in fact contained significant amounts of lead
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: and as you can imagine, Lint did not immediately respond
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: to a request for comments. But this is not the
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: first time regarding chocolate and levels of lead and cadmium.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Consumers in the US states of Alabama, California, Florida, Illinois, Nevada,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: and New York have taken legal action on the back
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: of a twenty twenty two article by the US consumer
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: organization Consumer Reports. So this is why we can't have things?
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, So, the organization the Consumer Reports tested twenty
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: eight bars sold in the United States. One of the
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Lint bars was among eight found to have a high
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: level of cadmium, while another was among ten with the
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: high level of lead, though neither had the highest levels.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Two of its bars, marketed under the US brand Giridelli,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: were among the five classified as safer choices, while bars
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: from other manufacturers had higher concentrations of heavy metals, including
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: from organic brands. Consumers insisted in the class action lawsuit
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: that they had paid premium prices for lint because they
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: believe they were purchasing quality and safe dark chocolate. So
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: they're not you know, Switzerland's not too psyched about that situation.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: I didn't know. I actually never heard about any of this,
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: But so get the letout.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I eat the truffles normally in the ball the you
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: know the ball shape, and you open it and it's
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: got the yummy in the middle. But I have a
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: lint lind door dark chocolate bar and the top door
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: of my night stand, and I allow myself one little
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: square every night when I go to bed.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, listen, everything in moderation, including lead and cadmium.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: But it was back in twenty twenty two. I don't know,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: you know. For all I know that this this lawsuit
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: started back then and is now finally getting to where
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: it's made. The decisions being made, so things could have
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: changed in stuff?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Is it only their US ones? Because my bars I
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: buy them when I go to Finland. So I bought
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: a pack of twelve of them so that I have enough. Yeah,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: because they're the Oh well then I'm good. I'm sitting
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: here going.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: You're fine. I think everybody's fine. You know that's scary.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Because they say that they're safe. Okay, lady, and Gray says,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I ignore all the alerts except for ambers. What about
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: salmonella E. Colei? As a person who was in California
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: back years ago and wound up in the hospital with
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the coli, you'll pay attention to alerts.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: That's why you don't eat green things and you're fine?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Is that what the problem is? Maybe that was the
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: problem because it did come from lettuce. Now, okay, if
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: you can't have lead in your paint, why do we
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: allow any lead in our chocolate?
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Because away with it it didn't have it. Yeah, well
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: that's half the problem, right, I think is there probably
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: wasn't appropriate testing and they just kept with the marketing,
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: and that was the big thing, right, The thing wasn't
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: It wasn't even that there was lead in it. It
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: was that there was lead in it, but they were
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: advertising a higher brain or a higher level of chocolate
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: to cost more, and people felt cheated. So I think
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: if they would have bumped it down two bucks, people
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: would have been like a second, because.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: You pay the extra money, thinking you're getting like, I
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: won't eat Hershey's chocolate because I don't eat the little
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: When I say I don't eat Hershey's chocolate, I'm talking
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: like in the bars. I don't eat the Hershey's in
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: the bars. I'm sorry, I don't.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: It's okay, I don't know what I.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Do eat mister good Bars.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: You probably shouldn't admit that. I mean, does double H
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: know that I eat mister good Bars.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's aware. He likes to eat them too. We
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: eat them together. That just sounded family so bad. Now
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: that that golden my head.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: I was going with it. You knew it. You knew it.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: You you just walked down the I paid. It.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Took my brain a minute to get there. But yes, okay,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: that is disturbing. And I didn't know that LNT had
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: anything to do with Garadelli.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Because Garredelli we went to the place there on the
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Embarcadero when we lived in the San Francisco Bay Area.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Connect LNT is a bigger it's a bigger group, right,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: So it's it's Lint and Sprungly. So you've got Lint, Gardelli,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: Russell Stover, Capharel, Hobauer, and Kuferral and those all make
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: up the Lintons. Okay, Sprungoni deal.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: How did they not tell us that when we did
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: the tour there? Because I lentt in Garadelli, I go
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: for the lent because it's Switzerland, then I'll go to
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: the Garadelly.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: It's the same. I mean it's the same, manu fact.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: The thing is that Lint is probably primarily made in Switzerland, right,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: That's one, and then yeah, and then Garridelli is primarily
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: made in the States because those two bars that had
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: the high level of lead were Garedelli, but fall under
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: that umbrella. So if you're getting a tour of the
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: like the umbrella itself, they're not going to talk about
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: all the little minions underneath.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: So well, I'm going to just say this, I am
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: fifty four, survive cancer three times. Maybe the lead's helping me.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe the lead's helping maybe survive who does?
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Who does?
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, but that's a little disturbing though. So now when
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I go to bed tonight and I go to eat
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: my little square, I'm gonna be like, thank you for that.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: You're gonna sniff out the lead.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be like, thank you for that.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Give it to Jasper first. If he makes it, you're good.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Now. Jasper only likes Eminem's. He doesn't like the peanuts.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: He only likes the regular eminems.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: Beggars can't be choosers. Bah.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I need to bring it around in one day soon.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: We should? We should. I think we should introduce what
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: we're drinking now.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: I decided to send double h Yes, guys, I was
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: down in bed, but I wanted to try to get
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: into the vibe. I have a Spy Valley seven Young Blanc,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: so it has the word spy in it.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Hey, O, I didn't do any of that. I still
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: have birthday beer, and so I've got myself a Hardywood
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: which is the Brewer Bourbon Barrel Crew, which is a
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: Abby style quadruple ale ag and bourbon barrels. It's twelve percent,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: very good, it's pretty heavy. And then I have what
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: has been a tried and true Imperial oaksaka Choca Mexican
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: Chocolate stout as well. I'm not working tomorrow.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: No question, is Carrie going to be awake for that
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: hardy wood.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Later, No, my children are in my bed.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Well, you know you always have five friends around.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: So I was like, which friends do I have? And
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: have they been approved? And then I realized what you
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: were saying.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: I was trying to be somewhat correct the hey ho
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: shows on this channel.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: We're fine, I promise.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, Sammy just brought up a good point. See JT
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: is still drinking chocolate with lead in it in his beer.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: There's a theme. I highly doubt, I highly doubt that
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: this chocolate comes from Lynn Orgia Deeli. It probably comes
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: from China, which means it's safer. Obviously, I wonder.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: And if you ever have time to go down a
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: rabbit hole, does let cause ady D? Since we both suffer.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: Yes, led exposure can cause ADHD symptoms, especially hyperactivity and impulsivity.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Here's the funny part. Here's the funny part is that
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: chocolate in and of itself has caffeine in it, and
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: for people with ADHD, caffeine actually kind of brings us
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: to center. It doesn't make us go crazy because we're
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: looking for that oxytocin. Caffeine does it boom? So we'd
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: never know? Do we need to bleep Terry True Crime.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: I can't bleep her. I can only bleep myself.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Lady at Gray's like, we need to stop her. They're
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: saying that because they all saw me trying to sing
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: that song and they're really worried about me. No, no, no,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: So I have to tell you I am ready to
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: hear your case or do you want me to go first?
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: No, I can go, no problem.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have been dying to hear your case since
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: we had to push this because we had the interview
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: with Anthony Christopher. Oh you know what, that's a perfect
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: segue into announcing, Oh, yeah, have the date in front
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: of me. Do you have the date in front of you?
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: We are gonna have Javier Yeah, yes, from the Pretend
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Thursday, so it's on a normal night of
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: True Crime of wine time. Javier from the Pretend podcast
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: is gonna be on. We're gonna talk to him about
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Lo Donna, et cetera. I will say this. I went
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: onto the Loadonna reddit subreddit and I saw your post
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: and it was getting a little bit of traction. There
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: were some comments and things like that. So it's gonna
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: be Yeah, it's gonna be good.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: But I'm wondering why I can no longer get into
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: that Reddit account I got reported that Reddit account. I
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: can no longer get into that account that I set
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: up just to do that because I'm not a Reddit
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: girl and I can no longer get in violated. I violated,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: but I didn't comment anything. All I did was share
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: a link.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: It was fine. Here's the thing. Everybody who commented was
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: positive about it. And then somebody had said he is
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: the video is still available and I linked it in
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: a comment, so you know whatever.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Well, I will say interesting. I saw something on Reddit
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: today because I'm going to reach out to Javier and
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Anthony tomorrow, something about charges new charges for her and
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: this was posted four days ago, and I didn't have
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: time to go and go down a rabbit hole. So
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I'll try to do that tomorrow. But yes, we're gonna
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: have Havier on and I am so excited.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: But yes, I've been excited about your case, and I
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: have been good and have rained myself in to not
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: go read.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: Well, it's crazy and there's a little bit of everything,
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: and you got to have some context, so I give
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: you that too. So the case tonight that what I'm
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: covering is the Rosenberg's. And I'm calling this love, Lies
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: and Lethal Typewriters the Rosenberg's Explosive family business. So everyone,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: we are about to dive into a tale that is
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: so full of spycraft, betrayal, and courtroom drama it would
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: make the Mission Impossible plot look like a Sesame Street episode.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: And we're talking about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, the mom
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: and pop spy shop that ran out of Brooklyn, convinced
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: they could pass atomic secrets like they were trying to
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: sneak snacks into a movie theater. So we're talking about
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties, right, America is knee deep in the
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Cold War. The only thing colder at that point were
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: the stairs of every suburban mom who's convinced her neighbor's
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: been flashing stashing Soviet propaganda behind the toilet. Enter the
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: Rosenbergs and an Acreage New York couple with the side
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: of treason, which I assume is the dish that bankrupted
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: TGI Fridays. But Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were not your
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: typical spies. They were more Partridge Family Band than James Bond.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Julius was an engineer, with a knack for talking, somehow
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: pulled together an entire network of friends and relatives for
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: the Soviet cause. It was like it was like an
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: Amway sales pitch, but with espionage. Hey have you heard
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: about our amazing new atomic secrets. It'll blow your mind
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: and probably the planet ethel On the other hand, well,
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: she grew up wanting to be an actress, So how
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: could she have possibly known that she would end up
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: being cast in the role of a lifetime. Maybe she
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: went from high school theater straight to the biggest stage
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: in America, a courtroom with charges of espionage and the
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: prosecution's main evidence that would be giving everything away. So
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: how does the saga end? Well, sit back, sip your
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: wine or whatever else you might have, your lead chocolate,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: and get ready for a story of Cold War paranoia,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: family drama, and the most dangerous typewriter in American history.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: I really like built that up, didn't I.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Sorry? I'm it myself because I have a mother in
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: law who's on the phone screaming at someone in the background,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: and I've tried to prevent everybody from hearing.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: I can't hear any of it. If it's happening while
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: you're talking.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: I'll just keep pressing mute on myself. Sorry, but no,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: that's a build up. So I want to know. And
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: when you say ethel, all I can think of is
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: luci ol Ball.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's fair. All I can all I can
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: think of is Ray Stevens. Don't look at all. Oh yes,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: they call him the streak fast thing on two. You
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: never heard Ray Stevens. He's like country comedy. Really, no
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: idea of the Mississippi Squirrel Revival, sitting up with the
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: dead none.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, Okay, you're gonna need to tell me, send
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: me some links, some names, so I need to check
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: it out.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: I will. He's been around for a very, very long time.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: He's gone a little political, and not in the way
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: that I thought he wouldn't. That's okay. His stuff when
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: I was growing up was like prime comedy material for me.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: All right, So let's talk about Julius Rosenberg. First. Julius's
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: life story intertwineans, youthful idealism, cold War paranoia, and espionage,
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: capturing the height of American fear of communism during the
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: Red Scare. Born on May twelfth, nineteen eighteen, in New
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: York City to Russian Jewish immigrant parents. Rosenberg initially showed
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: an inclination towards religious study and reportedly considered becoming a rabbi,
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: But you know how that goes. Interest shift from rabbi
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: to radical politics. Then he joined the Young Communist League
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: in his teens. That's a that's a typical traditional pattern.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: Right after graduating from Seward Park High School, he attend
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: attended City College. He earned a degree in electrical engineering
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty nine, the same year that he ended
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: up marrying ethyl green Glass, which sounds like a made
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: up name, but it's not.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: It could be worse.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: Ethel became one of the most debated figures in American
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: history for her role in this case. And I have
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: an update from September of this year. I think I
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: can't remember. It's at the end of the script, but
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: I have an update from September of this year that
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: really kind of turns us on its head. So she
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: was born on September twenty eighth, nineteen fifteen, in New
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: York City's Lower East Side. She grew up in a
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: crowded tenement with her Russian immigrant parents, Barney and Tessie
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: green Glass, and her two younger brothers, Bernard and David.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Despite their limited means, Ethyl developed an early love for
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: the arts and social causes, attending Seward Park High School,
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: where she par anticipated in feeder and had dreams of
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: a career in acting. However, financial necessity led her to
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: work for the National New York Packing and Shipping Company
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: after graduating in nineteen thirty one, Tailor's oldest time actor.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: Straight to packing and shipping. Nothing changes, nothing changes.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: In changes.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: So those two paths to espionage began with with shared
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: political beliefs, radicalization, and a wartime environment that fueled their
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: commitment to the Soviet cause. Julius was drawn into political
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: activism from an early age. Like I said, he joined
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: the Young Communist League during his college years, and while
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: studying electrical engineering at City College, he met like minded individuals,
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: including Morton Morton Sobell, who would later become a co
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: conspirator in the espionage network. In nineteen forty, Julius landed
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: a job as a civilian engineer with the US Army
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: Signal Corps, which gave him access to classified military information
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: every time. Every time, And this is probably this is
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: old school, Improperly, it might even be borierline racist. But
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: every time I think of a spy, especially during Cold
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: War a Russian spot, all I can think of is
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: a fearless leader in Mussen, squirrel like bor That's all
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: I can think of every time. That's what goes through
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: my head. I digress. During World War Two, when the
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: US and Soviet Union were allies, Julius felt that sharing
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: intelligence with the Soviets was a means of supporting a
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: shared cause against Nazi Germany. I can see that. Actually,
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: by nineteen forty two he was actively involved in espionage,
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: working with Soviet handlers to re lay sensitive US military
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: tech and eventually atomic secrets. He gradually built a network
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: of informants, including scientists and engineers that reached critical points
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: of access to American military research, especially the Manhattan Project,
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: which is amazing considering nobody knew about it, not until
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: not until a big boom in the middle of the
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: you know, somebody knew eventually, which they didn't tell anybody about.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: By the way, that's a whole other conversation to be
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: honest with and possible crime. Uh So. Ethel's path was
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: somewhat different, shaped by her family circumstances and her own
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: commitment to leftist causes. She grew up in a working
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: class family. She became involved in labor organizing during her
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: job at the National New York Packing and Shipping Company,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: and there she developed strong political convictions and became an
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: active supporter of the Communist Party. And that's what led
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: her to meet and later Mary Julius. They basically kind
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: of bonded together over Tinder Red. It's like, it's like
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: Taylor Swift's album Read in the parentheses or whatever, but
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: it's just Tender Red, all right, which you just you
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: swipe left, you swipe far left, far left. Okay. Anyways, well,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: everybody gets a vote. While her active role in espionage
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: has been debated, Ethel's connection to the network deepened through
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: her relationship with Julius and her family ties. Naturally, the
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: Rosenberg's political beliefs, combined with Julius's access to critical military
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: information and Ethel's loyalty, ultimately led them down a path
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: that transformed them from idealistic activists into Soviet spies. Now,
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: to give you a little context about all of this,
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: most of you will know some of this stuff. I
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: thought it was important in case somebody does watch. That's
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: like Cold War. What's that? The Cold War and the
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: atomic bomb. Think of it like the world's longest and
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: weirdest staring contest between the US and the Soviet Union,
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: with each side placing their respective country's member aka on
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: the table, just begging the other to look down to
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: see how big it is. But they aren't given, they
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: aren't budging, and they're just saying we've got the bombs,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: and the other side going, oh, yeah, we got bigger bombs.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: That's pretty much what that was. Cold War in a
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: nut shell pun intensity.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Say, I just had a huge visual.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: In and when I put that together, I was so
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: proud of that visual.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, but that explains it so well much better grasp.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously there's more, you know as socio political, all
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: that stuff with it, and there's in.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: A nutshell, it comes down to that, truly.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: What it came down to to me, especially near the
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: end with Reagan, was was was dick measuring. That's what
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: it was. It's what it was. So this all kicked
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: kicked off right after World War Two. So when I
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: say that Julius thought he was helping the cause by
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: helping Soviet Russia during World War Two, I mean that
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: because Russia ended up fighting against the Nazis. God it's
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: too soon. Uh So it kicked off right after World
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: War Two when the United States became the only country
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: with the keys to nuclear doom. They just dropped two
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: atomic bombs on Japan to end the war, which brings
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: up a host of other their topics and crimes to discuss,
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: but I'm not going to right now. And then a
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: courtesy of the Manhattan Project, it was a secret lab
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: operation in Los Alamos, New Mexico, where scientists were out
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: in the desert doing physics experiments like what if we
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: made the air explode or what if we had a
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: disintegration ray that went boom? Those were the questions. Those
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: were our hypotheses that led the Manhattan Project, those two
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: word for word, I did not make that up at all.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: I did uh by Robert what No, no, no, at all?
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: All the fun It's honestly, at a certain point it
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: did boil down to that, didn't it. It's like, how
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: can we make the biggest boom?
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: It did?
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: And Oppenheimer said, you should ask my toddler led by
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: Robert Oppenheimer, who must have had the weird wildest job
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: title ever, they set off the first atomic test at
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: the Trinity Site on July nine. In July of nineteen
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: forty five, Sammy said, instead of drunk history, we're having
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: a better show. Ah you stop it? Yes, a month
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: so they set it off the first atomic bomb test,
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: Trinity Site July nineteen forty five. A month later, they
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: made two more bombs for Japan. Boom, and in the
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: words of a famous line from a movie Game Over Man,
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: Game Over World War Two's done. The US stood there
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: with that classic look what I can do energy, hoping
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: the Soviets were impressed. And to that, I say, nyet. Now,
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: you'd think being wartime allies would have made the US
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: and the Soviet Union boddies no wrong. As soon as
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: the dust settled, and due to some need for redirection
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: and for the US to have a constant enemy to
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: bond the because of course we have to have an
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: enemy to bond us all together, at least in some way,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: it was clear that these two were oil in water,
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: just due to the rhetoric being used. America was all
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: like freedom capitalism, let's build highways and burger joints, and
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: Soviet Union was like collective ownership. Comrades, we are all
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: about the one party life. And President Truman he thought
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: the atomic bomb was the ultimate respect my authorita card.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: He figured dropping it might get the Soviets to sit
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: down like John Thomas. That's a Lori Valo reference. And listen, spoiler,
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: it didn't work. For the next forty years, America's foreign
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: policy could be summarized as stop communism, keep the upper hand,
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: resulting in a Toddler globe game of who can build
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: the biggest boom. In nineteen forty nine, the Soviets decided
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: it was their turn to play, so they detonated their
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: own atomic bomb, which was basically like someone doing the
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: same dance you just did, but at double speed. And
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: President Truman said he well, President Truman was stunned, and
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: he naturally decided all right, time for the hydrogen bomb,
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: because you know, strengthen TNT count I suppose. And everyone
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: in the US was asking, wait, how did the Soviets
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: do that so fast? Did they skip a few steps?
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Did they misread the IKEA instructions? Do they have a shortcut?
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: What happened? And then came the realization the triple take
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: the BOMBMA moment spies because of course, suddenly everyone looked
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: around suspiciously, just like it was one second, one moment.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Please you get it, you getn't get it, get to
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: get a visual Okay, that's what it was. Yeah, and
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: uh so everyone looked around suspiciously, and anyone with even
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: a whiff of left wing sympathies was treated like they
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: might be hiding blueprints to the next a bomb in
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: their lunchbox. The Red Scare was officially on, and the
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: Cold War was like that high school rivalry that spiraled
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: out of control. Was all talk, but with nuclear weapons,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: and in the end we got a world filled with
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: enough nuclear weapons to make you consider moving to Uranus.
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: I picked that on purpose because it's funny. It's like
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: the old core Cold War motto went quote mutually assured destruction,
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: a plan so nice will end the world twice. I
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: don't I I to me, to me, to me. The
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: nuclear bomb thing is like having a really really hijacked up,
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: unnecessary truck where they pass by. It makes a lot
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: of noise. They're really high up, and I'm like, sorry
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: about your small penis.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and when you were staying in high school rivalry,
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: this says a lot about me. I thought of the
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Grease movie.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Where they go.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: At each other after the bowl and Alley the slickback guy.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah against the I can't think of the names right now,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: shoot me, but that's what I was thinking of. You
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: think it's all talk until something happens.
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: Exactly so. So as mentioned, Julius worked as an engineer
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: for the US Army Signal Corps, handling military technology and
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: classified communications. Although he normally severed ties with Communist organizations
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: at the time, he began clandestinely passing information to Soviet agents.
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: His dedication to the Soviet Union grew during the war,
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: especially as the US and USSR were then allies. Like
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: I had mentioned, in nineteen forty two, he began covert
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: operations for Soviet intelligence and quickly became a trusted asset,
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: eventually known by the code name Liberal. By nineteen forty five,
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: he had assembled a network of informants, including his city
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: college friend Morton Sobel. You remember from the beginning who
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: and Morton was worth his salt ha ha, and his
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: brother in law David Greenglass, who was working on the
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Manhattan Project in Los Alamos, was also a part of it.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: Because Ethel's younger brother was working on the Manhattan Project.
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: So it's just yeah, it's a blown up world after all.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: So I just want to stop you right there and
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: tell people who are not aware of this. The only
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: way a secret is a secret is if no one
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: except you know, because once you tell somebody else, it's
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: no longer a secret.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: The only way two people can keep a secret if
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: is what if one dies?
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: No, that one shouldn't even ask, Like the.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: Motto of the mafia, you know exact. So. Rosenberg's network
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: was especially effective in relaying valuable military intelligence. One of
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: his key contributions was providing Soviet agents with information on
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: a critical piece of weaponry called the proximity fuse. That
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: was a device that played a crucial role in shooting
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: down an American U two spy plane in nineteen sixty.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: Rosenberg's operations were methodical and extensive. He was an engineer, right,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: he was an engineer, and he met with Soviet handler Alexander.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: This last name, it's got to be made up, Alexander Feklisov.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: Just it's the first two syllables are feckless and I'm dead. Anyways,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: He met with him multiple times to hand over information
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: that advanced Soviet technology and intelligence could use. And here's
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: how I wrote a little script. Here's how I think
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: this went. So I've got the information you asked for.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: It's in code, but I'll I'll warn you it's not
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: exactly easy to decipher, my Fred, you're talking to a KGB.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: Difficult is our favorite word. We practically put it on
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: our business cards, right right, right. So I'm just supposed
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: to hand this over like a like a secret recipe,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: like I'm some kind of spy chef. A dash of plutonium,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: sprinkle uranium va la atomic bomb. Duh, exactly like recipe,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: except recipe for ending world capitalism. You make it sound
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: so easy, but really, I mean the amount of info
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: I'm giving you guys at this rate, I might as
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: well add atomic consultant to my resume. Hm, atomic consultant.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: I like that sounds very fancy, better than government traitor. Yeah,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: I'll pass on that title. So, so what does Moscow
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: think of my work so far? They get the last
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: batch of you know, or they love it. Last week
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: they even threw a party for you, big one potato
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: vodka for everyone in your honor. Really they threw a party.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: Oh well, it was more of a mandatory morale boosting assembly.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: But yes there was potato vodka. I guess I should
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: feel flattered. My work works important, right, changing the world,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: making history? Oh? Absolutely? And remember you're doing this for
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: the greater good, right right? Greater good? Just one more question?
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: Are you sure no one's gonna find out? Like? Absolulutely certain, Julius.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Please kg B knows how to keep secrets. You think
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: we last this long by being sloppy? No? No, nonit trust us.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: We have it all under control. Okay, good? Because I
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: told ethel this was like a volunteer project. Honey, I'm
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: just helping the underdog, and she thinks we're signing up
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: for some kind of espionage here, Ah, Julius, That's why
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: I like you, such a dedicated family man with just
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: a pinch of treason. Well, I try so, same time
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: next week, dah, and bring the recipe and maybe a
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: little less nervous laughter.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: I see.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: Well, you know what they say about too much of
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: an espionage thing. The US government, when they realized that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: the US TESAR had atomic capabilities, became frantic. An investigation
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: was launched to uncover who had supplied the Soviet Union
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: with atomic knowledge and this was an extremely complex investigation
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: involvedlving multiple arrests and confessions within a larger Soviet spy network.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: The primary evidence against the Rosenbergs came from testimonies of
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: co conspirators, interest scepted Soviet communications, and circumstantial evidence gathered
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: by the FBI. Now, in terms of the initial breakthrough,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: the investigation began with the arrest of Klaus Fuchs, a
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: British physicist who had worked on the Manhattan Project and
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: was suspected of passing atomic secrets to the Soviets in
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: early nineteen fifty Fuchs confessed to espionage, which led to
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: the arrest of his American contact, Harry Gold, a Soviet
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: courier based in the US. Now, when Klaus was arrested,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: it was realized that he had a name that also
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: served as his last words as a free person, Ah
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: fuchs Golds confession, Gold's confession. Gold's confession provided the FBI
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: with a significant lead. He identified David green Glass Well
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: that's Ethel's younger brother and a machinist who also worked
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: on the Manhattan Project as a source of atomic information.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: David greenglasses confession and testimony when he was questioned he
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: confessed to espionage and implicated his brother in law, Julius Rosenberg,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: as the person who had recruited him into the Soviet
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: spy network. Because of course, when the FBI does an investigation,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: they don't just want the stooges, they want the big one, right,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: Green Glass.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: I have to stop real quick and ask a question
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: because it's in my brain. Wasn't the atomic bomb built
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: in Tennessee somewhere? Ah? Because I want to say I
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: had a call center that I managed their back when
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: I was a director for that company, Oakridge, Knoxville.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: It was built in yep, Oakridge, Tennessee, Okay.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Because I accidentally turned turned into the facility my very
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: first visit there, and I was on the phone with
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: Double H and I thought it was the call center
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: because the map told me to turn, and I just
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: remember it said something atomic on it. And later I
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: was told yeah, because they came and surrounded my rental car,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: jumped out and it was a big to do.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: So I was like, I thought it was yeah, I
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: I accidentally this was I had. This was like freshman
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: year in college in Newport News and I was driving
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: to Williamsburg because I was doing a stage play or
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: a musical rather in Williamsburg, and instead of taking the
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: B exit, I took the A exit, and that took
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: me to uh hold on, uh that's not right. Uh
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: hold on, I've gotta remember what it is.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I will just say Oakridge is beautiful.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: That's it. There it is. I turned. So once you
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: get off the exit, you get straight to a gate,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: and being a military kid, I was like, this is
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: the military gate. And it was the military gate to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: the farm, which is CIA training if you know about
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: the farm. So little eighteen year old me who weighs
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: like maybe one hundred and five pounds, Oh, cute little U. Yeah,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: cute little me. Before I put on an human being,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: I couldn't go anywhere because like you're literally just like
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: herded into a lot and this guy steps out and
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: he has an automatic rifle, and I was like I
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: kind of expected that, Like if I wasn't a military kid,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: I would have freaked out.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not a military kid, so I was freaked out.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: And I was a single female on trip, so.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: They popped out. I said, I took the wrong exit.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, and I just go forward and make
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: a U turn and he said no, and I said, Okay,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: what's the best way to do this. He's like, you're
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: going to back up and then you're gonna turn around.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: He wouldn't need even let me go through to make
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: a UI. Yeah, not at all, not at all. And
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna be honest with you. I wasn't surprised at all.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, security is what security is, and I wasn't offended.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: And I but but he was very good at being intimidating.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: I'm sure he was the nicest guy in the world,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: and he could have been a complete ass asshold of me,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: but he wasn't my bar for that, like that role,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: you kind of have to be one, so my bar's
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: real low. So he was a lot nicer than he
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: had to be. Anyways. In short, I almost ended up
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: on the farm, And by that, I mean I almost
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: ended up six feet under on the farm. So okay,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: so yeah, but but so did you where you ended up?
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: Was that? Is it still a base?
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: It's some kind of facility. There's all this now I know,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: military stuff outside. They have something there still in reserve
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: if it's ever needed or something. I learned this after
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: that because everybody when I got to the site. They
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: were all laughing their heads off at this cute little
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: Texas girl because they were like, oh yeah, if something
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: ever hits that area, we're all dead. And I'm like, excuse.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: Me, sorry, I just did a quick look. And since
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: we're talking nuclear anyways, it is still a thing. It
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: It is the US Department and of Energy National Nuclear
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: Security Administration. It's managed and operated under contract by Consolidated
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: Nuclear Security and it still okay, so we'll go forward,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: We'll fast forward. In nineteen ninety nine, there was an
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: explosion that injured several workers at the Y twelve facility,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: that's what it's called. And then in twenty twenty three,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: just last year, did anybody hear about this? I did
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: not hear about this. I'm on February second. Huh what happened?
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: So February twenty second, twenty twenty three, a fire broke
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: out in a urineum processing area of Building ninety two twelve.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: In In a statement from the National Nuclear Security Administration,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: the fire was said to be contained later the same day.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: Did anybody hear about this?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: I didn't hear.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: That.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: I know that still lives in that area posted.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: Well, I can't say it wasn't reported this this this
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: source goes to USA today, so it obviously was.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: So it didn't make me.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: At some point, Well, your security.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Guy was nicer than my security guy. They made me
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: get out of the car.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: Oh really, and they checked me.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: They took my car and brought it around the front
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: of the gate, around and then I was able to
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: get back in it, and they took these little mirror
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: things and looked underneath it. They checked my briefcase check.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: I had to give them my ID. They went and
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: scanned a copy. So I was put on the list there.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm assuming me fut, I'm assuming this was
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: after two thousand and one, right, yes, yeah, yeah it was.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: Those mirrors came out after two thousand and one. Yeah
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: it was.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: So I didn't know because I'm not a military brad.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: My dad was in the Coast Guard. But yeah, so
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: it freaked me out. But I followed the Google map
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: thing on my phone. It said take a ride. I
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: turned right. Yeah, I mean I wound up and I
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: was in a suit. I had my nice three inch
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: heels on, cute little small me. It was my first
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: time to go to that site, because I had thirty
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: two sites and my first time going, and every time
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: I went to visit after that, I shook when I
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: went by to the facility driving.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, and to a degree it's a bit much.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: But also if they don't I don't.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: Fault them once I found out what was there. They
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: were doing their jobs. But they could have had a
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: big sign that says must be approved to turn here something.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: So I would have seen it and been like, oh,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: don't turn there.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: That brings attention. You can't have that.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: So, but was the atomic bomb that you're talking about,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: was it from there?
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one part of it or one of them was. Yeah.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: So green Glass, Ethel's brother testified that Julius had recruited
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: him in nineteen forty four and encouraged him to pass
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: on classified atomic information from Los Alamos. Now, according to
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: green Glass, he provided Julius with sketches and descriptions related
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: to atomic bomb designs, which Julius then allegedly passed on
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: to Soviet handlers. Now, how detailed this is not in
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: the script. I'm just obviously going off script. How detailed
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: those are from a machinist, I don't know. I mean,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: I suppose he could have access to the blueprints. Therefore
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: he could he couldn't take a photo right, so he
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: could have recreated them, but that happened, so he green
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: Glass then further claimed that As had assisted in the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: espionage by typing up his notes, effectively implicating her in
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: the conspiracy. I don't know if he thought the more
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: I give, the better it'll be for me. I don't
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: know why a younger brother would give up his older sister.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: I don't have that information, but he did. His testimony
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: would become a pivotal part of the case, as it
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: placed both Julius and Ethel at the center of the
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: operation to pass atomic secrets to Soviets. Now, the US
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: government had been intercepting Soviet communication since World War II
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: through a secret intelligence project known as Venona, which sounds
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: like a really bad ex girlfriend. Well, Venona transcripts were
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 3: not publicly revealed until decades later. Decryptid messages had identified
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: a spy code named Liberal, believed to be Julius Rosenberg,
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: who was actively passing information. So things are starting to
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: line up, and oddly enough, different projects, different teams and
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: government actually talking to each other. Oh wow. While the
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: Venona evidence was not directly presented in court, it influenced
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: the FBI's suspicion and helped guide their investigation towards Julius.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: Now with Green Glasses confession and other corroborating evidence from
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: Harry Gold's testimony, the FBI arrested Julius Rosenberg on July seventeenth,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: nineteen fifty, at his home in New York City. Julius
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: remained calm denied all charges, refusing to implicate anyone else
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: in espionage activities, to which I'm sure he said, well,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: I'm better than David, what the hell, dude. After Julius's arrest,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: the FBI sought, addition, average to pressure him into confessing
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: or providing names of other spies, so on August eleventh,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: nineteen fifty, they arrested Ethel Rosenberg. The FBI hoped that
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: arresting Ethel would persuade Julius to cooperate to secure her release,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: but both steadfastly maintained their innocence and refused to cooperate
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: with the authorities. It it's so interesting to me because
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: I know that the FBI would have known that if
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: they said more, they were dead anyways. So it's like,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: you know, is a little shifty.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: Another key figure who gave evidence. It's Morton right Saltman Sybil,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: a former classmate of Julius and an alleged co conspirator.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: He was arrested while hiding in May, oh because nothing
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: says I'm not guilty, like going to Mexico. He was
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: extradited to the United States and eventually testified that he
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: and Julius had shared scientific and military information with Soviet agents.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: Sobell's testimony corroborated aspects of the Rosenberg's involvement in the
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: spy ring, though it provided little new evidence specifically implicating Ethyl.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: So as of right now, what it looks like is
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: that David is the one who gave up Ethel, but
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: there's no other evidence to corroborate the fact that she
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: actually had anything to do with anything. So you can
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: kind of see kind of where this is going now
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: for some of our trial nerds, I'm going to talk
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: a little bit about the trial because I thought it
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: was really interesting and very biased. Imagine that during this
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: and red scare. So. The trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: which began on March sixth, nineteen fifty one, was held
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: in New York's Southern District Court. Now probably heard of them,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: especially recently that site of the trials like US Verus
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: Bernie made Off usv ibm US V. Martha Stewart, USVL.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: Chapo US First, John Gotti, USV. Jeff Epstein, USV. Twitter.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: You know the hit list of the big cases. Right,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: this started to get incredibly biased. Oh yeah, and Diddy,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: right Diddy for now? Yes. At this moment, Judge Irving R.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: Kaufman's comments that the trials outset communicated that prevailing bias,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: as he said that the defendant's loyalty lay with Communism
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: rather than their country, which is about as unbiased as
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: a spy. Writing his own performance review, quote a Risks
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: life gathered secrets looked dashing in a trench coat. It's
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: just it is a me to me. It's like last
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: It's like last night when I was doing the transcript
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: and I was reading, I don't If you get a
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: chance to go back to last night's episode, I highly
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: suggest you do.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, people go listen. I listened to it today. I
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: couldn't watch, but I was listening. I had to stop
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: and I was like, wait a minute.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: That judge is like the modern Kaufman. So it's no
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: surprise this was highly sensationalized. It was covered as it
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: was set against the backdrop of Cold War tensions, an
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: anti communist sentiment in the United States. It was like,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: we got one, Oh, look, all of this red scare
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: was worth something. Charge with conspiracy to act right? Oh
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: for or for sure? Uh So they were charged with
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: conspiracy to commit espionage. The Rosenbergs were accused of passing
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: it comic secrets to the Soviet Union, enabling the USSUR
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: to accelerate its nuclear program. The trial would become one
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 3: of the most infamous of the Cold War era, not
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: just because of the verdict, but also for the public
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: debate it stirred about the loyalty, justice, and the fear
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: of infiltration. Now, the prosecution's case against the Rosenbergs was
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: spearheaded by Prosecutor Irving H saypool, which I feel like
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 3: you have to say just like that.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: You have to say it just like that.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: Irving was a determined anti communist who had already made
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: a name for himself as a redbuster, not my quote theirs.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: He portrayed the Rosenbergs as deeply embedded communists whose allegiance
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: to the Soviet Union outweighed any loyalty to the United States.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: Say Poul argued that Julius, with Ethel's support, operated as
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: the leader of a sing that passed classified information on
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: atomic research to aid JITs. The prosecution relied heavily on
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: the testimony of David Greenglass, Ethel's younger brother, who was
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: a machinist. Green Glass said that Julius had recruited him
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: to pass that information, and that Ethel, his own sister,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: like I had mentioned, typed up notes and sketches that
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: he provided. The evidence presented by the prosecution included his
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: now infamous testimony, in which he described a clandestine meeting
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: in September nineteen forty five at the Rosenberg's New York apartment.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: According to David, Ethel typed up his hastily scribbled notes
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: on a high explosive lens, a critical component in atomic weaponry,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: while Julius oversaw the process. This scene was painted vividly
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: by say Paul, who told the jury quote Ethel Rosenberg
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: struck the keys blow by blow against her own country
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: in the interest of the Soviets. I don't know why
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: I made him Southern, because he's in New York. But
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: this is just go with me on it.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: I like it, You're good.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: The dramatic language under I could do it in New York.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: I guess Ethel rosenbook struck the keys blow by blow. Okay.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: So the dramatic language underscored the notion that Ethel's actions
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: were intentional acts of betrayal, though her direct involvement espionage
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: remained contested. Another key witness again was Harry Gold, a
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: confessed a courier for Soviet agents, who claimed that he
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: met with green Glass in Albuquerque in nineteen forty five
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: Everything good happens in Albuquerque using the passphrase I come
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: from Julius. Gold's testimony helps link the Rosenbergs to a
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: larger network of Soviet spies, strengthening the prosecution's case that
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: the Rosenberg alleged activities were part of a systematic, orchestrated
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: effort to undermine American security. Now, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: were represented by Emmanuel Block, a civil rights attorney with
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: a reputation for defending leftist causes. Block argued that the
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: Rosenbergs were innocent victims of Cold War hysteria, caught in
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: the government's over zealous effort to root out Communists within
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: American society. The defense contended that the case was built
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: on flimsy evidence and unreliable witnesses, notably David Greenglass, whom
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: Block painted as a man willing to betray his own
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: family to save himself. I think we'd probably call most
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: of that a straw argument, but at a certain point
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: you got to come up with something. If they're paying you,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: I guess.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: Are in your paycheck right.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: Block emphasized the lack of physical evidence directly connecting Ethel
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: to espionage, arguing that Greenglass's testimony was exaggerated in contradictory.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: During the trial, Block questioned green Glass's accounting account of
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: the infamous typing scene, probing inconsistencies and suggesting that green
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: Glass had fabricated details to protect his wife, Ruth, who
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: was also implicated in espionage but never prosecuted. When Julius
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: took the stand, denying all charges and asserting his innocence,
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: Ethel did not testify. Instead, the Rosenbergs largely invoked the
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: Fifth Amendment when questioned about their alleged communist affiliations and activities,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: a tactic that likely worked against them in the eyes
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: of the jury and a public that was already on
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 3: high alert and ready to convict for communist threats. Now,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: Judge Irving Kaufmann presided, and his role was anything but neutral.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: As I mentioned at the start of the trial, Kaufman
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 3: made his stance like I said, the evidence is, he
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 3: literally declared. He basically did the prosecution's opening statement. He declared, quote,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: the evidence will show that the loyalty and allegiance of
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: the Rosenbergs were not to our country, but to communism.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: I don't call that neutral. No. I hear Chief Perry
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: rolling in his sleep right now, Chief Yeah, This statement
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: said in a tone that indicated his personal bias, and
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 3: his conduct throughout the trial reflected a harsh attitude towards
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: those defendants. Now, on March twenty ninth, nineteen fifty one,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 3: after nearly a month of testimonies and arguments, the jury
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: delivered its verdict. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were found guilty
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: of conspiracy to commit espionage. Judge Kaufman then imposed the
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 3: death penalty, which was a decision that shocked many and
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: stirred international outcry. In his sentencing, Kaufman said, quote, I
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: consider your crimes worse than murder. By your betrayal, you
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: undoubtedly have altered the course of his I don't know
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 3: what I'm doing of history to disadvantage, to the disadvantage
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: of our country. He further argued that their actions had
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: quote already caused the Communist aggression in Korea, implying that
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 3: the Rosenbergs bore indirect responsibility for American casualties in the
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: Korean War. His severe words underscored the symbolic significance he
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: and much of the public attached to their case. Now,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: in terms of reading the verdict, the clerk said, mister Foreman,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: have you agreed upon a verdict? Yes, sir Yana, we have.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: How say you we the jerry find Julie Rosenberg guilty
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: is charged. We the jury find Ethel Rosenberg guilty is charged.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: We the jury find Morton Sobell guilty as charged. Uh.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 3: Members of the jury, listen to the verdict as it
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: stands recorded. You say you find the defendant Julius Rosenberg guilty,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 3: Ethel Rosenberg guilty, and Morton Sobell guilty. So say you all, yes,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: e H Block says, if the court please, I asked
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: that the jury be pulled as to each defendant very well, anyways,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: they pull them and then eh block. Okay, the court says.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: Keep going, I got problems, you keep.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: Going strong, No, no, no tell me.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: So if women back in the nineteen fifties had to
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: do with their husband told them they couldn't have their
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: own credit cards, they couldn't. They weren't supposed to think
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: for themselves, they didn't have rights. How could they say
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: she was conspiring. Her husband basically owned her back then,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: so she had to do what she was told.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: There's this thing that's known as you don't have your
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 3: own agency until it benefits my case. Case.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: But I'm just sitting here going wait a minute. I
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: recently found out my mother couldn't have her own credit
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: card in her name until nineteen seventy ETHO couldn't do
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: She had no choice but to use the typewriter because
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: her husband told her to.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: And we might be going back to that, but without
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: saying that, but I just did you did? It's okay?
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: You see, here's the thing. Yes, that is the case,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: and they probably used that to then further prosecute to
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: say she obviously had a hand on this because he
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 3: was the ringleader. So therefore she does she really did it,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: versus she told.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: You she wanted it. Okay, now you keep going. I
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: just am sitting here going this is a little too
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: close to home.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: It was the conspiracy. She wanted it right, all right.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 3: So the judge said, in return, my opinion is that
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: your verdict is a correct verdict. And what I was
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: particularly pleased about was the time which you took to
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 3: deliberate in this case. I must say that as an individual,
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: I cannot be happy because it is a sad day
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 3: for America. The thought that the citizens of our country
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: would lend themselves to the destruction of their own country
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: by the most destructive weapon known to man is so
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 3: shocking that I can't find words to describe the lowsome effect.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: And the prosecutor comes back and says, the conviction of
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 3: the defendants in a criminal case is no occasion for exaltation,
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: which is the prosecution's way and always is of saying yippie.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 3: It has been said that the government never loses a
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: case because if there there is a conviction, the guilty
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: are punished. The government never loses the case. That ended
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: real fast, didn't it. And if there is an acquittal,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: the presumption of innocence must permanently prevail. The conviction of
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: these defendants, however, is an occasion for sober reflection. That you,
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: the jury so considered it is evidence from the fact
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: that you deliberated for six and a half hours last night,
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: a whole six and a half hours for a month trial,
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: and the nature of your requests as to the evidence
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: and the identity of the witnesses, amongst other things, demonstrates
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: that you complied throughout the instructions of the learned court,
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: and that your conclusion is a mature, a reflected one.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: The jury's verdict is a ringing answer of our democratic
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 3: society to those who would destroy it. First, because he
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: went on a diatribe. First, because I'm not making this
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: up either. This is directly from the transcript. Oh no,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: this is this from the reading of the verdict down.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 3: This is direct transcript from the trial. First, because a full, fair,
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: open and complete trial in sound American tradition was given
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 3: to a group of people who represented perhaps the sharpest
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: secret eyes of our enemies. They were given every opportunity
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 3: to present every defense, and I would fight at all
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: times for their right to defend themselves freely. And vigorously. Secondly,
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: your verdict is a war that a democratic society, while
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: maintaining its freedom, can nevertheless fight back against treasonous treasonable
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 3: activities and block saying what he could said, I want
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: to extend my appreciation to the court for its courtesies.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: And again I repeat, I want to extend my appreciation
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: for the courtesies extended to me by mister Sapol and
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: the members of his staff, as well as the members
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: of the FBI. And I would like to say to
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: the jury that a lawyer does not always win a case.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 3: All that a lawyer expects as a jury to decide
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: a case on the evidence with mature deliberation. I feel
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: satisfied by reason of the length of time that you
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 3: took for your deliberations, as well as the questions asked
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 3: during the course of your deliberations, that you examined very
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: carefully the evidence and came to a certain conclusion, which
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 3: is not a ringing endorsement for me for him. But
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 3: then the court said thank you and a transcription. Now
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: the Rosenberg's I promise were almost not. The Rosenberg's conviction
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: sparked a global controversy, with many arguing that their trial
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: had been tainted by Cold War hysteria and anti communist sentiments.
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 3: Yet don't say. A vigorous campaign for clemency was launched,
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 3: attracting supporters from around the world, and that concludes figures
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: like Albert Einstein and Pope Pious the twelfth.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: Oh Okay.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: Emmanuel Block filed numerous appeals on behalf of the Rosenbergs,
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 3: arguing that the evidence was insufficient and that the death
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: sentence was excessive, particularly for Ethel whose involvement was not
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: definitively proven. Despite these efforts, President Truben and later President
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: Eisenhower refused to grant clemency. In the final days before
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: their execution, a stay was temporarily issued by Supreme Court
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: Justice William O. Douglas. But the you know when somebody
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: has the middle initial, oh, Douglas, I just assume it's
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: what their mother screamed out when they never mind. But
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: the full court overturned the stay, stealing Rosenberg's fate. Also
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: not in the script to ten plus percent beers, it's good.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: On June nineteenth, nineteen fifty three, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Well,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: we'll get there. On the evening of June nineteenth Julius
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 3: and Ethel Rosenberg were executed in the electric chair at
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: sing Sing Prison and Osening, New York. I don't even
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 3: know if I'm saying that right. The execution process was tense.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 3: It was marked by the intense public and media attention
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: surrounding the case. In the Rosenberg steadfast refusal to admit
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: even at the very end their desks were the first
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 3: and only executions of American civilians for espionage during peacetime. Now.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: Julius Rosenberg was brought into the execution chamber first, just
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 3: before eight pm. He was calm, maintaining a composed demeanor
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 3: as he entered the room. Observers noted his stillness as
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 3: he sat in the electric chair, refusing to show any
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: fear or regret. The prison chaplain reportedly offered Julius a
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: final chance to confess his crimes, but Julius declined, continuing
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 3: to profess his innocence as he had throughout the trial
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 3: and appeals process. The prison officials strapped by the way.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people say that nowadays we
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 3: are very dark and focused on true crime, But have we,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: in any of the recent time ever received this detailed
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: of information about an execution, I don't think we have.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think we have. So that tells you it's
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: been there.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 3: They were real.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, that comes up in my case a couple
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: of things that I thought were current, but they've been
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: around a while.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So the prison officials strapped him into the chair,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 3: placing electrodes on its head and body. At eight h
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 3: six pm, they administered the first jolt of electricity. The
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: current surge through Julius's body, causing it to convulse briefly,
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: after which his body fell still. The prison doctor checked
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 3: his vitals, but Julius was still alive. After two additional jolts,
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: he was pronounced dead at eight ten pm, which means
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 3: then it took four minutes in the electric chair to
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 3: kill him. Oh wow, Now if you thought that was bad.
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: After Julius's death, Ethel was led into the chamber, which
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: I'm sure smelled fantastic by the way. Described by witnesses
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 3: as looking pale but stoic, she maintained her composure as
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 3: she was seated in the electric chair. Refusing offers to
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 3: make a final statement. Like Julius, Ethel continued to deny
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 3: the accusations against her steadfast in her innocence. Now, there
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 3: is a piece of me that really believes that she
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 3: didn't have any not like anything to do with this.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 3: There's a piece of me. I do not have the
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: evidence in front of me. Therefore I cannot say that.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: With she didn't have a right to make her own decisions.
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: So based on that, I'm right, I'm I'm yeah.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: And so there's a piece of me, you know, they're well,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: we'll get there. So she continued to deny the accusations
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 3: her final Her final words, reportedly spoken earlier to her
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 3: lawyers before, were simple, I have no names to give.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 3: I'm innocent. Ethel's execution, however, was marked by a technical
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: problem that made her death more prolonged than Julian's. Shit
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 3: when so she was put into do I have the
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 3: time when she was put into the chair? He was
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 3: dead at eight ten. I'm going to go that she
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 3: was probably in the chair by eight twelve. I'm guessing
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: they pulled him out, brought her in. I'm guessing there
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 3: wasn't much time. And I'm going off of when she
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 3: was declared dead. First declared dead. No, I well, I
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: don't have I don't have the knowledge of that, but
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 3: I highly doubt it because of how quickly this happened.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: So he died at eight ten, right or eight yeah,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: eight ten, so Ethel. So when the first current was
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 3: a ministered to Ethel, she convulsed but remained alive. Witnesses
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: visibly shaken, later recounted that prison officials administered additional shocks
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: after noticing she was still breathing. Finally, after five electrical surges,
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: two more than Julius Ethel, Rosenberg was pronounced dead at
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 3: eight sixteen. So that is what tells me there was
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: some time. There was very little time in between. You go,
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 3: I'll finish up, then you got time. So in terms
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: of witnesses to this execution, these witnesses included journalists, prison officials,
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 3: and FBI agents. Many were actually deeply unsettled by the
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 3: prolonged and painful process, particularly in Ethel's case, and this
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 3: drawn out death shocked the public, with media accounts describing
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: the scene in graphic detail, leaving a lasting image of
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 3: the Rosenberg's final moments. Now, for many, the ex execution
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 3: represented how brutal the punishments were during the Cold War.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: For others, it was seen as a necessary measure to
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 3: protect national security in an era rife with fear of
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: espionage and communist infiltration, and I'm gonna wait just for
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 3: Terry to come back, which she's almost back, are all right?
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: So I basically just said that the people who witnessed
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 3: it were messed up, which I get.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, I'm still caught up on the fact they
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 4: didn't clean it between people, and it was her husband,
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 4: so you're making her come and sit in her husband's
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 4: stuff where.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: He was just killed. So yeah, I'm a girl. I
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: think about those things and the fact that it took
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: what three times for him, and then if her is
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: longer five, that's torture.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: So that's why I'm saying he died at eight ten,
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: she died at eight sixteen. I'm guessing because of the timeframe,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 3: she was probably put into the seat between eight twelve
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 3: and eight thirteen. Therefore it took her in that chare
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 3: three to four minutes to die assembly, yeah, exactly. And
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 3: you know, the condition of the chair in the room
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: is one thing, but you're literally hooking electrodes up to
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 3: somebody's skin, and so I cannot imagine what walking into
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 3: that that quickly would be.
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I mean the trauma is on so many levels.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, everybody, for humans right right now, and
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 3: not to make anybody cry, but I was able to
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: find a document, an original document, which is what this is,
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 3: which was a letter from the Rosenbergs to their kids
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 3: before their execution, and they said, yeah.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: Or when I cry, go ahead.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 3: Dearest sweethearts, my most precious children. Only this morning it
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 3: looked like we might be together again after all. Now
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 3: that this cannot be, I want so much for you
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 3: to know all that I have come to know. Unfortunately
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 3: I may write only a few simple words. The rest
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 3: your own lives must teach you, even as mine taught me.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 3: At first. Of course, you will grieve bitterly for us,
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: but you will not grieve alone. That is our consolation,
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 3: and it must eventually be yours. Eventually too. You must
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 3: come to believe that life is worth living. Be comforted that,
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 3: even now, with the end of ours slowly approaching, that
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 3: we know this with a conviction that defeats the executioner.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 3: Your lives must teach you too that good cannot flourish
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: in the midst of evil, that freedom and all the
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 3: things that go to make up a truly satisfying and
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 3: worthwhile life must sometimes be purchased very dearly. Be comforted
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 3: then that we were serene and understood with the deepest
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 3: kind of understanding, that civilization, that civilization had not as
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 3: yet progressed to the point where life did not have
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 3: to be lost for the sake of life, and that
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 3: we were comforted in the sure knowledge that others would
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 3: carry on after us. We wish we might have had
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: the tremendous joy and gratification of living our lives out
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 3: with you. Your Daddy, who is with me in the
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 3: last momentous hours, sends his heart and all the love
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: that is in it for his dearest boys. Always remember
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 3: that we were innocent and could not wrong our conscience.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 3: We press you close and kiss you with all our strength. Lovingly,
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 3: Daddy and Mommy. PS to Manny the Ten Commandments, religious
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 3: metal and chain, and my wedding ring I wish you
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 3: to present to our children as a token of our
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 3: undying love. Also to Manny, please be certain to give
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 3: my best wishes to name redacted. Tell me Tell him
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 3: I love and honor him with all my heart. Tell
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 3: him I want him to know that I feel he
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 3: shares my triumph, for I have no fear and no reggrets,
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: only that the release from the trap was not completely effectuated,
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 3: and the qualities I possessed could not expand to their
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 3: fullest capacities. I want him to have the pleasure of
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 3: knowing how much he meant to me, how much he
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 3: did to help me grow up. All our love to
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 3: all our dear ones, you so much, Ethel. The Rosenberg
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 3: trial remains one of the most controversial and scrutinized cases
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 3: of the Cold War. Many have questioned the legitimacy of
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: Ethel's conviction, particularly after David Greenglass admitted years later that
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 3: he might have exaggerated or falsified details in his testimony
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 3: to protect his wife. Additionally, he classified documents from the
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 3: Verona Project in the nineties confirmed Julius's involvement in Especia,
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 3: but offered no conclusive evidence against Ethel. This has fueled
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 3: ongoing debate about the justice of her execution. Now, the
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 3: Rosenberg's trial and sentencing have become symbols of Cold War excesses,
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 3: illustrating how fear and suspicion of communism or anything really
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: sometimes outweighs considerations of fairness and due process. Their legacy
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 3: remains a potent reminder throughout America and society, leaving behind
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 3: an enduring and deeply polarizing story of loyalty, betrayal, and justice.
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 3: Now told you that I had a little update from
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 3: this year September twenty third, twenty twenty four. Wouldn't should
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 3: know it? Quite recently news came out regarding the Rosenberg case.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 3: The Rosenberg Fund for Children recently announced that the National
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 3: Security Agency has declassified a seventy four year old document
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 3: revealing that the US government was aware Ethel Rosenberg was
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 3: not a Soviet spy long before her trial and execution.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 3: According to the RFC, these files revealed that the government
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 3: quote new Ethel Rosenberg never engaged in espionage for the
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 3: Soviet Union. The conviction, they assert, was based on quote
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 3: perjured testimony and both prosecutorial and judicial misconduct. The sole
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 3: evidence against Ethel, as I said before, came from the
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 3: testimony of David and Ruth green Glass, whom the RFC
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 3: describes as proven liars. The files further state that there
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 3: was insufficient evidence to indict Ethyl and that she was
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 3: used merely as a level to coerce her husband. Today,
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 3: the Rosenberg sons, Michael and Robert Merripol, alongside the RFC,
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 3: see something that drives me crazy, and I fall into
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 3: this too. This trap is that we think about World
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 3: War II, the Cold War, We think about these things
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 3: as being hundreds of years ago. Their sons are still
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 3: alive and thriving, But those two, alongside the RFC, are
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 3: urging the President to issue a proclamation acknowledging that Ethel
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 3: was wrongfully convicted and executed. Michael and Robert, who were
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 3: just six and ten when their parents were executed, seek
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: long awaited vindication for their mother. Jennifer Marripol, executive director
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 3: of the RFC and granddaughter of the Rosenbergs, emphasize that
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 3: the president quote has the power to correct this historic injustice,
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 3: to redress the harm done to my family, and to
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 3: offer peace to my father, they're and uncle in their lifetimes.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: She highlighted that the RFC founded by her father, Robert
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 3: nearly thirty five years ago. The honor of his parents
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 3: stands as a testament to the support of the progressive
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: community that supported him and his brother when their family
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 3: was under attack. Together, the RFC and the Mirapole family
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: call on the President to act swiftly. I'll be interested
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: to see if that made it through, and within the
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 3: next couple of months we get that list of pardons
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 3: and see what happens. We'll see I don't know if
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 3: if he doesn't do it, it's not gonna happen for another
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 3: four year for sure. Well that's not entirely true. Actually yeah,
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 3: I'll just leave it that way. So there you have it.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 3: You know, it's the Rosenbergs. It's the classic American tale
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 3: of love betrayal and one serious misunderstanding of how far
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 3: a family business should go. Julius and Ethel went from
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 3: Brooklyn sweethearts to headline news, wrapped up in a cold
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 3: War fever dream where duck and cover was the national
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 3: dance move and every other neighbor thought that they were
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 3: one jello box away from finding a Soviet spy in
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 3: their basement. I mean, think about it.
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: From the date of their trial, their conviction, when was
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: their execution? Did they have an appeal process?
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. He put in multiple appeals. Those were denied.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: But nowadays people that are connive for murder with DNA
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: still can sit on death row for twenty years, all right.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 3: March twenty ninth, nineteen fifty one, they were found guilty.
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 3: June nineteenth, nineteen fifty three was the date of their execution.
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 3: Two years and two months.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think twenty years is too long. Obviously,
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the happy medium is, but.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so, yeah so, I mean, you know, this whole
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 3: saga started because Julius probably didn't do this. But Julius
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: was like Aney, I got a hobby, but instead of
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: taking up model trains or podcasting, he chose espionage. Ethel
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: was I think, suddenly dragged a lot, finding herself in
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 3: the world's most intense game of I Spy or Where
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: in the world is Carmen san Diego? And somehow typing
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 3: a few notes led to the electric chair. And let's
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 3: be honest, in today's world, she'd have been sentenced to
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 3: endless password resets, not in death row.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: But why did her brother turn on her?
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 3: Because he was trying to save his wife, who was
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 3: also implicated.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, but your wife over your sister. They obviously did
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: not have a good I mean, I'm not saying my
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: brother would protect my life, but he wouldn't intentionally set
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 2: me up to be unless there was concrete proof I
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 2: did something.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing here, I thought about this too,
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 3: and I thought, why why would he even mention her
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 3: name anyways? Right, you didn't have to my My my
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: justification was this, and I'm not saying it's the right justification.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 3: What I'm saying is the FBI was more than willing
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 3: to imprison and indict Ethel in order to get Julius
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 3: to say more so, who knows what the hell they
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 3: said to him about his wife to get in order
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 3: to get him to talk. Right, So that's my thought.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 3: So after all that drama, the Grand Finale isn't a
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: bombshell revelation. It's a big fact question mark. Julius was
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 3: likely the real deal, sure, but Ethel well we kind
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 3: of know now. I don't think that she took ride
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 3: or die a little too literally. In the end, the
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 3: Rosenbergs left a legacy of confusion and a lot of
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable questions about justice and two sons who have spent
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 3: a lifetime advocating for the answers that well, they may
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 3: never come. And that's the Rosenbergs.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I knew some things about the Rosenbergs. I don't
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: know why, and that's why I didn't look into the case.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: When you said months ago you were going to do
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: this case. I thought it was the opposite. I thought
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: she was the spy and he got drug into it
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 2: trying to protect his wife. I don't know where I
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: heard that or why I thought that, but.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 3: I have I have no doubt with keeping his you know,
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: kids in the forefront of his mind, that he probably
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: really tried to redirect spotlight away from her. Right However,
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 3: I really think that the FBI hoped that her being
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 3: pulled into this would get him to talk more right,
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 3: and when it didn't, it became an embarrassment and it
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 3: was too late, and in order to not admit, they
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 3: went forward. And I, I don't know, there's just a
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 3: lot there.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: The death penalty. Did we not have prison for life? Then?
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: Did you have to go to the electric.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 3: Espionage? Yeah, espionage, Cold War? That environment one percent you
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 3: were going. I mean, listen, we are. I'm trying not
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 3: to get on a soapbox. But here's the deal.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 3: We literally heard just a month ago that because somebody
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 3: was considered or or by somebody's whatever values or morals
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 3: they have considered a trader, that they should be placed
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 3: against a wall in front of nine guns and shot
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 3: at true and and and I don't care what side druve.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 3: It's fine, it's not fine. But what I'm saying is
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 3: this idea of villainizing and creating this monster is the
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 3: goal of it is to bring everybody together to rally
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 3: against the monster. Right and truly, if you can do
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 3: that effective, anybody will apologize or turn the other way
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 3: for whatever action you take against that monster. We saw
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 3: that in the Holocaust. We saw that with the Red scare. Yeah,
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 3: and I'll leave it there. I'll leave it there. But
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 3: that's that's what I'm saying.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: So it's uh, SEMy sunshine posted. I don't know where
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: it went. Oh it was like burning witches.
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a freckle could make.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 2: A witch being a business owner. I mean that it's
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: that association.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, if you didn't like the person and you
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 3: could somehow come up with something right. I mean, because
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 3: the test for that was if you drowned, you weren't
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 3: a witch. If you if you if you saved yourself
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 3: because you could swim, you were a witch. Either way.
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm surprised that I'm still here and my
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: burnstick is still right here and it hasn't burned up.
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know how that's happened, but we're both still here.
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 3: I knew it. I knew when we started this, when
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 3: we both hopped in the stream, Mart, I heard you
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 3: say another glorious morning, the good witch. Oh I'm good.
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: I know that I'm the good witch. Being a witch,
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: and that's the whole point. Being a witch doesn't mean
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 2: you're bad. You can be a good witch.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 3: I do know plenty of people who do consider them
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 3: which is that consider themselves witches, that are good people.
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 3: I know plenty of people who consider themselves things that
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 3: have been villainized that are good people.
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, you gotta think just family that grew up
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: in Louisiana cajun I didn't know until I got to
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: middle school that voodoo dolls were not a good thing.
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean everybody who you had a voodoo doll
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 3: of for funzies was like, oh God, I didn't know.
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 2: It was all about perception.
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and and and I cannot emphasize this enough.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 3: There there are very few times in the history of
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 3: this country where we have not had a universally, universally
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 3: the countrywide recognized enemy, and it's used to bring people together.
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 3: And I just wonder. I wonder that if that rhetoric
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 3: and that didn't exist, if what we had without that
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 3: would be enough. I just don't know. I mean, i'd
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 3: like to think so, I'd like to think that the
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 3: good people. I'd like to think that. And I am not.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not. This is not the Daily Show, but I
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 3: am I'm just not sure anymore.
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: We all, I don't care who you are, what you do.
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: Everybody wants somebody to blame, no matter what side you're on,
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 2: and if we don't have somebody else to blame, you
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: turn on each other.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 3: It's also true, and that's.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: Why I try and I keep my chair slipping. I
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: keep saying we all need to realize that because when
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 2: countries have gone through tough times, whether it be your economic,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: it brings people together because they have somebody else that
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: they can come together to be against.
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 3: And when you don't have, this is funny because they
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 3: should come together to lift everybody.
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: Up as.
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 3: Freaking lutely and like this is one of those things.
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 3: And I know this is not. I know that this
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 3: is not like one of those things where it's like
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 3: you point at somebody and you've got like three fingers
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 3: pointing back at you, So you really really really need
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 3: to think about the rhetoric you throw out there and
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 3: what it actually says about you. Sammy's right, it is.
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 2: It's fair mongering, that's what it is. And in my
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 2: daily life and in my personal life, there's always going
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 2: to be problems. There always going to be situations. I
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: personally try to attack it as heard on the problem,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: soft on the person, because that's what it needs to be.
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 2: I don't I mean and I say that, And I've
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: had people say, oh, what if somebody is molesting your child? Okay,
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: that's a different situation. But in every day situations, you
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: focus on what the problem is. You focus on why
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: it's happening, not the person. The person so accountable for it,
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 2: but why did it happen? Let's fix that issue because
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 2: fixing one person isn't going to fix the sue. So
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 2: if we're hard on the problem and solft on the people,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: we would get so much further in life. In my
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: Pink Sparkly opinion.
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 3: The APA here, let me, I'll just put this right
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 3: on into the chat the link. The APA has an
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 3: article that is called fear a powerful motivator in elections
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 3: and really it's not just elections. It's just it doesn't
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 3: have to be an electioneer for this. But they talk
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 3: about how fear can sway opinions. But knowing the deliberate
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 3: and strategic ways in which our fears are exploited can
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 3: help lessen its effects. Right. For instance, fear can be
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 3: used to drive votes. Quote. A large part of politics
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 3: is getting people to think about things as part of
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 3: a group. That's from Christopher Federico, PhD, a professor of
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 3: political science and psychology at the University of Minnesota. Politicians
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 3: use this strategy. Politicians using this strategy must first show
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 3: that they are best suited to address a specific issue.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 3: Once that's established, making people scared about that issue can
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 3: cause them to seek comfort by joining the ranks of
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 3: the group perceived as most capable. That does not just
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 3: have to be politics. That happens in cults, that happens
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 3: in reallyigs, that happens everywhere, but it is very salient
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 3: in politics right now. And so this is not something
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 3: that is just coming out of my brain or out
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 3: of my butt.
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 2: Right well, if it's coming out of your butt, could
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 2: you put the videos so we could just get that
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: on video, because we would get a lots and likes
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 2: from No. No, you might have to move over to
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: only fans for that.
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 3: But yeah, so I mean, listen, I did not mean
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 3: for this to become like a conversation that bigger, but
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: It is. It is because my case has some of
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: the same things on there, and some documents have recently
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 2: been released as well. And I mean, we all knew.
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: I was born and raised Groaton, Texas. I've had the
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: honor of living outside of the state or eight years.
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: But we have the death penalty. I grew up with
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 2: the death penalty. But there are sometimes that you should
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 2: step back and say, wait a minute, wait, just to
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: flip a minute. You know, we have a case right now,
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: Robert Roberson that there's a whole big uproar if you
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: haven't heard about it, because he was convicted and sentenced
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: to death for shaking his baby and killing his baby
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: shaken baby syndrome, but his child was sick and had
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 2: all of these other things. He had taken the child
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: to the hospital multiple times. And now scientists and medical
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: doctors have come out and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WOA,
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 2: this didn't happen, And they still want to put him
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: to death, and in my opinion, just take him off
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: of death, just put him in prison for life until
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: we can figure it out. We shouldn't be so quick
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: to pull that trigger. And that's where murdering.
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 3: We need to murger somebody.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 2: I know, and we shouldn't go there. And that's not
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 2: where you know what. We need to do an episode
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 2: where we talk about our triggers and share with people,
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 2: because this triggers both you and I. Yeah, I mean
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 2: it's a huge trigger for me.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 3: It's a thought of.
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 2: One innocent person being put to death is one too many.
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 3: I I can't emphasize enough how either individual or uh
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 3: group or organizational pride will lead to a poor decision
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 3: every time.
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 2: Mm hm.
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 3: Put the pride side and think about it for a second.
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 3: If science has advanced and we have now got all
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 3: of the I don't not even that case, but but
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 3: this case, we're talking about it anything. If it hasn't advanced.
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: You need to step back exactly.
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 3: And think about it, and and and and and if
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 3: you're if you're operating off of well, we spend all
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 3: this money and all this time, and we the verdict
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 3: was that verdict, and we want to get it right.
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 3: I don't give a shot. You chose to do that,
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 3: and now it's not there. That's the thing. If they
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 3: could just admit that it wasn't it's not their fault
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 3: that science moved on, and that is the whole thing.
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 2: We try to teach our kids to be accountable and
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: accept responsibility. I would be so I would just be
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: over myself and I could even give up wine if
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 2: they came out and said, oh my god, technology medical
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: science has come so far. We now know that the
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 2: decision we made based on what we had then was
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 2: not right. We have come so far, we've learned this.
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: We made the wrong decision.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 3: Sam, You're right. It is hard for a jury to
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 3: to sign that outcome. I will say this, and I
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 3: can't put myself in the position of a jury member
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 3: in that kind of a case because I've never been
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 3: in it, and I can only imagine that you'd have
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 3: to be in order to fully empathize with that. I
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 3: think that if I was a jury member and based
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 3: off of what I had at the time, I made
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 3: a decision to put somebody to death, and then a
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 3: couple of years later, ten years later, it came out
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 3: that maybe this wasn't the case. I would very very
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 3: much like somebody to stop the process exactly figure it out.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 3: I would not be offended, I would not make a fuss.
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 3: I would want to make sure that it was the
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 3: right thing to do. And I would say that by
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 3: and large the majority of juris would be okay with that.
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: No, and so what do you agree?
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 3: It just comes from ego?
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: I agree, And I think it comes down to finances
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 2: because things that we thought back in nineteen sixty we
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 2: have learned now some of that information wasn't right. I mean,
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 2: we're growing technology. I mean I never thought we would
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: be doing something like this on a camera. You where
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 2: you are, me here, and I was talking all these people.
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 2: So technology changes, science change. But we have to admit
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: that things change and things progress, and we need to say,
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: oh hold on, we need to go back and apply
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 2: that to today's standards, to today's science.
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 3: And I have a really hard time just statistically that
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 3: thirty one to thirty four hundred people who are on
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 3: death row. You don't think one of them was wrong,
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 3: or you don't think one of them was inappropriately convicted.
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 3: Maybe they were guilty, Maybe they were guilty, but maybe
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 3: there were mitigating factors instead of those instigating factors, and
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't what you thought it was. And it's
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 3: okay to mature the justice system, just like it's okay
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 3: to mature the constitution. With society, it is okay. It's
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 3: not the end of the world. It doesn't mean that
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 3: anything that happened in history was wrong and that you're
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 3: scrapping it because you don't respect it. You respect it,
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 3: and because you respect it, you update it because you
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 3: wanted to continue to live on appropriately. And I've drank
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 3: too much and I should probably stop seeing to your case.
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: No, but like Judge Perry told us, there are people
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: who deserve to meet their makers sooner than later. I
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 2: am not saying that I am against that. What I'm
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: saying is, if somebody has been convicted and they are
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 2: on death row. In new information science technology, if something
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 2: comes forward and there is one point zero zero one
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 2: percent chance that you need to look at things again,
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 2: we need to own it. Stop what we're doing and say, hey,
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying you're not going to be put to death.
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say that we're going to go back
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 2: and check again and put it against today's standards. That's
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 2: all I'm asking people to do.
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 3: Judge Parry was so fun to talk to because I
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 3: think that Casey Anthony displays the middle of the line there, right.
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 3: I think that if you look at the evidence, they
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 3: could not prove how they could there were things they
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 3: could not prove. Right, was very convinced that she did it.
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 3: He believed that she should have the death penalty.
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 2: Because he knows things that we don't know.
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 3: He does and and and and so I I am
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 3: more than apt to agree with him.
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 3: But but like he would have been fine, I would
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 3: have been fine. People would have been fine if the
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 3: prosecution wouldn't have been on their high horse thinking they
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 3: would have nailed the case and put in the manslaughter right,
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 3: and and and and that is something where as context,
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 3: context is everything. If you don't think that you've done
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 3: the job, and if your ego doesn't get in the way,
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 3: you are willing to put that instruction in in order
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 3: to make sure that she is convicted because she did
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 3: do it. And maybe it's not exactly what you were
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 3: looking for, and maybe it wasn't the death penalty, but
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 3: like Thatt, the middle of the road case that is
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 3: a great example of this. And and I just I
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 3: I don't it's right.
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 2: It's not win or lose. It's about justice at the
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 2: end of the day. I mean I if I was
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 2: on that jury, I would not have sentenced Heart to
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 2: death based on what they put forward. They should have
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 2: given something else because I would have convicted her and
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 2: put her ass in jail.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 3: And and and and and like I will talk more
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 3: about this on Sunday with Richard Allen. It's the whole thing.
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 3: But but but.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 2: We're both I gotta remove I'm getting a hot but.
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna let you start and then I
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 3: will be right back in like a minute, and I
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 3: will have taken a breath.
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, you go take a breath, and then I will
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 2: get into my lady. So, guys, if you're new here,
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 2: you don't know this about me. But if you're not
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 2: new here, you're gonna know. I really like strong women.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 2: And this case. We've had this on the books for
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 2: like six months, and I have been just waiting for
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 2: us to get to it because this is a case
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: about a woman who was a strong woman. She did
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 2: things that she needed to do to survive during a
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 2: bad time. I'm not going to say she always made
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 2: the right decisions, but let's just get into it. And
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna warn you up front there is a lot
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 2: of European and German words, and I am a Texas girl,
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 2: so I'm gonna do my best. But Margaretha Gertruda Zella's
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 2: early life was a complex tapestry of privileged loss and
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 2: the search for her identity. Now, she was born August seventh,
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 2: eighteen seventy six. Guys, that was a long freaking time
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 2: ago in lee Warden, the Netherlands. No Margherita. She was
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 2: later called Margaret, but she preferred to go buy Margerita,
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 2: so I'm going to try to stick to that. She
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 2: was the oldest of four children in a family that
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 2: enjoyed considerable affluence. Her father, Adam Zell, was a successful hatter,
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 2: and if you don't know what a hatter is, they
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 2: make those great little hats. But he also made shrewd
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 2: investments in the oil industry, and the financial prosperity allowed
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 2: Margherita and her siblings to experience a childhood that many
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: would envy even in today's times. Okay, so you know
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 2: they had things that others didn't she attended exclusive schools,
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 2: and she lived in a comfortable, well furnished home, surrounded
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 2: by the trappings of a bougie lifestyle. Now, y'all know,
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 2: I wrote that because I like the word bougie, but
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 2: we would call it in today's time. They were upper class.
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 2: They're you know, the kids are going to exclusive private schools.
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 2: But this idolic I can't even speak. This wealthy existence
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: began to unravel when Margarita was just thirteen years old.
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 2: In eighteen eighty nine, her dad Adam Zell, declared bankruptcy,
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 2: a below that stripped the family of its wealth but
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 2: also destabilized as social standings. We have to remember, when
• 2:16:50
  Speaker 2: you get to a certain level in society, they care
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 2: about that crap. They are not like us that if
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 2: my neighbor had to followed bankruptcy, I'd be like, like,
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: you're still a great person.
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 2: They didn't do that back then. So the bankruptcy was
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 2: followed by the divorce of her parents, and back then
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: that was very rare, guys. So it was so rare
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 2: and it was stigmatized. I mean, in the nineteenth century,
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 2: you didn't do that. Marguerite's mother, I am sorry for
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 2: slaughtering her name aunt Janay van Durmuellin. I think I did, okay.
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 2: She died shortly thereafter in eighteen ninety one, leaving Margaerita
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 2: and her siblings in what we would now call a
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 2: dysfunctional environment and with her life in disray. Margaerite was
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 2: sent to live with her godfather, mister Viser. Now there,
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: she began her education at her teacher training school because
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 2: she wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. Guys, I'm gonna
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 2: just tell you right now, I said this recently on
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 2: Midday Missing. Anyone that wants to be a kindergarten teacher
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 2: is a saint in my eyes, right i'd be.
• 2:18:18
  Speaker 3: Let's just be honest.
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 2: My five year old grandson's getting ready to come for
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 2: ten days, and I'm like, holy smackers, there's a lot
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: of time I gotta feel. So can you imagine having ten, eleven,
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 2: twelve of them? I know, because I don't think you
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 2: can drink at school?
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 3: No, but well well well some have shown that you can.
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 3: But you shouldn't.
• 2:18:49
  Speaker 2: Just shouldn't, yes, shouldn't Like I will not be partaking
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 2: in the wine while he's here as much. But guys, However,
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 2: hurts at school was cut short because the headmaster began
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 2: to do inappropriate things towards her. And I have to
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 2: tell you my first thought was, I knew men were perverts,
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 2: and I knew they've always had these desires freaking way
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 2: back then. They couldn't even control themselves when society looked
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 2: at them more than we do now. I mean, I
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 2: found that a little bit shocking. Maybe it's just me, maybe,
• 2:19:39
  Speaker 2: but this incident marked the first of many occasions where
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 2: her appearance and allure would impact her life. Now, her
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 2: godfather was very concerned about her safety. He did the
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 2: right thing. He removed her from the school. Kudos to him,
• 2:20:01
  Speaker 2: and she she wound up moving to I have done
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 2: the pronunciation thing five times and I'm still not going
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 2: to say it right. The hag hag hog?
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 3: Where is it? I didn't wasn't looking at the script.
• 2:20:17
  Speaker 2: E U e h a e u e yeah, hog Hoague.
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Hogue. We're just gonna go with Hogue
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 2: like a hogy.
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 3: Hoe. I like it. It's very American to live with
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 3: her uncle.
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 2: Now. Sadly this ended her formal education. And I can't
• 2:20:41
  Speaker 2: help but think, if you're a female in that time,
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 2: and you have that happened to you, would you really
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 2: want to go to school somewhere else? You know, Mom
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 2: died this, I mean, would you? But that being said,
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 2: that led her to the life that she wound up living.
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 2: That when she was born was a life that no
• 2:21:04
  Speaker 2: one could have ever imagined for her. So in eighteen
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 2: ninety five, I said, it's a g hegi.
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 3: I could say, he gi, we've got our we've got
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 3: our live fact checker, which I do not say flippantly,
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 3: thank you, thank you, because that is.
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 2: Not what the little pronunciation tool I found on the
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 2: goog said. So I appreciate that.
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 3: Now, unless she meant hag haig, I think she meant haig.
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 3: I don't think she meant hegi. He's probably sitting there
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 3: screaming at the screen right now. We totally mispronounced everything
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 3: that she hooked on pahanic it us.
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to just put this out there. If
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 2: you watch the Hey Host Show on Friday last Friday,
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 2: my most embarrassed, second most embarrassing moment is now out
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 2: there and internet history. You will see my pronunciations not
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 2: be good when there's alcohol or drugs involved. It's okay,
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 2: but it is a little diddy about Terry and JT.
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 2: But anyway, you mean.
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 3: Drugs. She wasn't hitting acid, y'all. I wasn't.
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 2: I was. Hey, I did successfully pass my kidneystone. But yes,
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 2: I was on prescribed narcotics that were required anyway, Cloud,
• 2:22:46
  Speaker 2: Yes I was, and I still had pain, I believe it.
• 2:22:53
  Speaker 2: But at the age of eighteen, her life took another
• 2:22:57
  Speaker 2: dramatic turn when she responds to a newspaper advertisement placed
• 2:23:03
  Speaker 2: by Captain Rudolph McLeod, a Dutch colonial officer stationed Why
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 2: did you laugh McLeod.
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 3: Mc Yes, McLeod it is.
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 2: I'm going to call him McLoud. You will know why
• 2:23:22
  Speaker 2: I'm calling him mclod does that was intentional, I believe you.
• 2:23:31
  Speaker 2: So he was stationed in the Dutch East Indies, which
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 2: is now Indonesia. McLeod was significantly older than Margareith, and
• 2:23:44
  Speaker 2: he was seeking a wife, yes, and Margareth was looking
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 2: for stability and an escape from everything that had gone on.
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 2: The couple wed in Amsterdam on July eleventh, nineteen eighty five,
• 2:24:00
  Speaker 2: and soon after Marguerite found herself in the Dutch East Indies. Guys,
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 2: she didn't know anyone okay. And the thing that shocked me.
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't know they had mail order brides back in
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 2: eighteen ninety eight, did you. I didn't know you could
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 2: still put in a little word item.
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 3: Cold in any point in time, if a man could
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 3: post something, Yes, you totally could, because.
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 2: How did it get from East End? I mean I
• 2:24:44
  Speaker 2: didn't know they had international newspapers back then. I've been living.
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 3: He was sorry prominent, was the person doing the male
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 3: order and he was a captain. Yes, he was in
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 3: a circle that knew about this stuff. Probably right, He's
• 2:25:06
  Speaker 3: probably not the first person. Uh, but yeah, I didn't know.
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 2: Lady in Gray said, have you ever No, I have
• 2:25:16
  Speaker 2: never seen Seven Brides for seven musical?
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 3: Nerd in me is so happy right now?
• 2:25:23
  Speaker 2: Do I need to put that on my list?
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 3: I mean it's a classic, in my classic I mean
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 3: literally a classic.
• 2:25:32
  Speaker 2: So okay, and I guess I should preface it. I
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 2: was raised I was not allowed to watch a lot
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 2: of TV growing up. I didn't see Old Yellow until
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 2: my twenties.
• 2:25:44
  Speaker 3: Neither Seven Brides for Seven Brothers came out in nineteen
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 3: fifty four. You wouldn't you wouldn't have seen it.
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 2: But I mean so I wasn't raised to be into
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 2: all of that stuff.
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 2:25:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember my first TV show was Oh my god,
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 2: my grandmother's rolling over in her grave that I cannot
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 2: name it, The Thornbirds. That is the first movie I
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 2: remember seeing besides snow White. What does that tell you?
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 3: But so.
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 2: Their marriage was seen as a step up for her
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 2: because elevating her into the Dutch upper class, and it
• 2:26:33
  Speaker 2: did provide her financial security again that she lost once
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 2: her dad falled bankruptcy. However, the reality of life with
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 2: mister mcload was far from the romantic escape that she
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 2: had fantasized about. Mcleode was an alcoholic with a violent temper,
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 2: and their relationship became abusive. So he took the low road,
• 2:26:57
  Speaker 2: and that's why he is Mick the Load instead of McLoud.
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 3: Oh I like it.
• 2:27:08
  Speaker 2: That was intentional, so as most pieces of husbands, he
• 2:27:14
  Speaker 2: frequently blamed Marguerite for his lack of career advancement, and
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 2: he took out his frustrations on her. Now as we know,
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 2: she's still most people still have children in that situation.
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 2: She had two children, a son named Jorman John born
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety seven and a daughter named Louis Jean
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 2: born in eighteen ninety eight. Now, I guess said the
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 2: life in the Duchy East Indies was a shock for her. Okay.
• 2:27:46
  Speaker 2: It was rich culture, traditions, exotic landscape. And she even
• 2:27:52
  Speaker 2: immersed herself in learning the customs and the languages, which
• 2:27:56
  Speaker 2: I find fascinating because back then they didn't want women
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 2: to learn too much, right.
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, look what happened.
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she adopted the name.
• 2:28:13
  Speaker 3: Trim. That nobody Trim, that nobody they if you know me,
• 2:28:18
  Speaker 3: I don't believe that. I don't, but I'm sorry I
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 3: had to laugh.
• 2:28:24
  Speaker 2: That's fine. She adopted the name Mata Hari, which means
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 2: sun or I of the day in Indonesia. That's really pretty,
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 2: what's fascinating. She would later use this as her stage
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 2: name as she transformed from a Dutch housewife into the
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 2: mysterious figure that would captivate Europe and all of us today.
• 2:28:52
  Speaker 3: Did when did you want me to show this photo?
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 2: Not yet?
• 2:28:59
  Speaker 3: Not yet? Take it? Sure? I just don't want. I
• 2:29:02
  Speaker 3: don't want to miss my spot.
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 2: No what I I will always set you up to
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 2: be successful.
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 3: I know, I believe it. That's why we're so great together.
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 3: We go to Yeah, they're Likeama dama, Sorry, grease continuous.
• 2:29:18
  Speaker 2: Oh so, despite our attempts to get in with the
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 2: local culture, her marriage continued to deteriorate. And I'm going
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 2: to say it's his fault, not hers. I don't have
• 2:29:31
  Speaker 2: him for I do not have facts stating that, but
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 2: considering he was an alcoholic and violent in the times,
• 2:29:38
  Speaker 2: I'm going to just say it was his fault. But
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 2: the final blow came in eighteen ninety nine when tragedy
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 2: stuck struck the family. Both of their children fell seriously ill,
• 2:29:51
  Speaker 2: and although the official cause was related to complications from syphilis,
• 2:29:57
  Speaker 2: which both parents had contracted, the family maintained that his
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 2: servant had poisoned the children in retaliation for some perceived
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 2: slight Norman John did not survive, while Luis Jean recovered.
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 2: It marked the end of their beginning or yeah, the
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 2: end of their marriage. Now I'm going to just tell you, guys,
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 2: I did go down the syphilis loophole when I read this.
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 2: So back then they treated syphilis with mercury, So why
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 2: would you think a child would survive, the fact that
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 2: Louis survived is miraculous.
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 3: Do you just do you know who? Who? Else had syphilis.
• 2:30:57
  Speaker 2: Donald who.
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 3: Ram Stoker had syphilis? Oh really, Adolph Hitler was suspected
• 2:31:06
  Speaker 3: to have syphilis. Al Capone absolutely died from syphilis.
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 2: Well, there we go again. Back then we didn't have
• 2:31:16
  Speaker 2: the medical technology to fix it or the medical science.
• 2:31:20
  Speaker 3: Now we know. Cavin said a lot of people had it.
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 2: Apparently a lot of people had it when I went
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 2: down the little thing, because it wasn't easily detected, and
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 2: you didn't find it until it was too late and
• 2:31:42
  Speaker 2: it had already been spread. But now we have medication
• 2:31:46
  Speaker 2: to fix that, but back then they didn't. So the
• 2:31:50
  Speaker 2: couple returned to the Netherlands, where they separated, and they
• 2:31:54
  Speaker 2: divorced in nineteen oh six. I just saw someone acting
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 2: my answer for security purposes, okay, Bell. So Margareite was
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 2: awarded custody of their daughter. However, it's not a new thing.
• 2:32:16
  Speaker 2: Her ex husband refused to pay court ordered child sport.
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 2: See where I keep saying, we keep fighting all this
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 2: shit that we know. It was happening back then and
• 2:32:26
  Speaker 2: it's still happening now. So eventually Louise Jean was taken
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 2: by her father during a visit, leaving Margareite without the
• 2:32:40
  Speaker 2: means or the will to fight for her return. So
• 2:32:45
  Speaker 2: basically Dad took her after a visit and never returned her,
• 2:32:52
  Speaker 2: knowing that she did not have the resources to fight it.
• 2:32:58
  Speaker 3: Sorry, yes, what does that look for? Well?
• 2:33:02
  Speaker 2: Are you googling on the side.
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 3: Bell said, don't research how they found out how to
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 3: cure syphilis because it's heartbreaking and I found and Bells
• 2:33:10
  Speaker 3: can confirm or not. The first significant breakthrough in treating
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 3: syphilis came with the discovery of salversan, which is an
• 2:33:17
  Speaker 3: arsenic based compound developed by Paul Erlik in nineteen ten,
• 2:33:22
  Speaker 3: which was considered a magic bullet for the disease. I'm
• 2:33:27
  Speaker 3: gonna go with no, but apparently in order to do it,
• 2:33:34
  Speaker 3: they tested a six hundred six oh six, which was
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 3: the compound over on my skinny pigs and then rabbits.
• 2:33:43
  Speaker 3: But I have a feeling, Bells know something else. Maybe, Oh,
• 2:33:52
  Speaker 3: you're talking about the Tuskig the Tuskegee experiment. That's right. Oh,
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 3: you're right. Yet that was for cyphilis provided no effect
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 3: of care. As the studies African American participants experienced several
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 3: health problems, including blindness, mental impairment, or death. Yep, yep, yep,
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 3: thank you, oh boy, all right, that's another episode. We
• 2:34:14
  Speaker 3: should do an episode on crimes with health.
• 2:34:19
  Speaker 2: Go add that to the sheet because we will forget
• 2:34:23
  Speaker 2: in five minutes because it's JT and Terry. Now, after
• 2:34:28
  Speaker 2: the collapse of her marriage, Marguerite found herself alone and
• 2:34:32
  Speaker 2: financially destitute, like a lot of single women find after
• 2:34:37
  Speaker 2: they marry somebody above them. Just going to say that.
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 2: In nineteen oh three, she moved to Paris, a city
• 2:34:46
  Speaker 2: known for its bohemian culture and artistic freedom. It was
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 2: here that she would reinvent herself as Mata Harry, the
• 2:34:59
  Speaker 2: exaus dancer in courteson, which is a fancy word for
• 2:35:05
  Speaker 2: an upper class prostitute. Their words, who would take Europe
• 2:35:13
  Speaker 2: by storm?
• 2:35:16
  Speaker 3: I guess it's it reminds me of Mulin Rouge. It does.
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 2: There was a girl, a very strange and special. Why
• 2:35:26
  Speaker 2: don't you show the picture of her, because guys, she
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 2: is beautiful. I now know why her godfather took her
• 2:35:37
  Speaker 2: out of the school after the headmaster whatever the teacher was,
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 2: who did bad things. She was stunning. Do you remember
• 2:35:47
  Speaker 2: how to shirt screen? There? She is I mean, but
• 2:35:49
  Speaker 2: also look at that outfit that is very riskue in
• 2:35:56
  Speaker 2: nineteen oh three. I mean, but she was beautiful. But
• 2:36:05
  Speaker 2: Paris was at the turn of the century. It was
• 2:36:07
  Speaker 2: a city of contrast. While it was the center of
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 2: arts and culture, it was also a place where many
• 2:36:16
  Speaker 2: struggle to survive, kind of like America today. Sorry, that
• 2:36:22
  Speaker 2: was not appropriate. I apologize, No, I don't apologize. Margareive
• 2:36:26
  Speaker 2: initially found work as a circus horse rider, performing under
• 2:36:31
  Speaker 2: the name of Lady macloud in nord to her former
• 2:36:35
  Speaker 2: married life. See she gets McLoud, he gets mcleoded. But however,
• 2:36:40
  Speaker 2: this was not See Terry does things intentionally and normally.
• 2:36:45
  Speaker 2: I don't call him out. I just let people think
• 2:36:47
  Speaker 2: I'm a fool. So however, that was not enough to
• 2:36:55
  Speaker 2: support herself, so she also posed as an artist's model
• 2:37:00
  Speaker 2: to make ends meet. But in nineteen oh five, her
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 2: big break kit when she debuted as an exotic dancer
• 2:37:08
  Speaker 2: at the Mouseic Gumet, a museum in Paris. If Shawn
• 2:37:14
  Speaker 2: is watching, I apologize for the way I just pronounced that.
• 2:37:17
  Speaker 2: But it was a museum in Paris dedicated to Asian
• 2:37:21
  Speaker 2: art and culture. Her performances, which combine elements of Indonesian
• 2:37:26
  Speaker 2: dance with her own creative interpretations, were unlike anything Parisian
• 2:37:32
  Speaker 2: audiences had seen before. Now, Mata Harry's act involved a slow,
• 2:37:38
  Speaker 2: sensual dance in which she gradually removed layers of clothing,
• 2:37:43
  Speaker 2: revealing an exotic costume that left little to the imagination.
• 2:37:49
  Speaker 2: This provocative style captivated audiences and made her an overnight sensation. So, guys,
• 2:37:59
  Speaker 2: I'm going to just tell you what I learned in
• 2:38:03
  Speaker 2: my research that sex sells even back in the nineteen hundreds.
• 2:38:08
  Speaker 2: She gave the allure of being naked. She was never naked,
• 2:38:15
  Speaker 2: she was not topless, she was not all nude in
• 2:38:17
  Speaker 2: a bar, but she gave that allure, And I think
• 2:38:24
  Speaker 2: that's something important to think about. We always think that
• 2:38:28
  Speaker 2: pure naked is what's intriguing. Sometimes it's just the allure
• 2:38:33
  Speaker 2: of what you don't show. Leave a little bit to
• 2:38:38
  Speaker 2: the imagination, just a little bit, in my opinion. Now,
• 2:38:43
  Speaker 2: she rose to fame immediately. She became the darling of
• 2:38:49
  Speaker 2: Parisian society, performing for aristocrats, politicians, and wealthy industrialists. So
• 2:38:57
  Speaker 2: what does that tell you right there? If they were
• 2:39:00
  Speaker 2: inviting her, they didn't find it quite so shocking, right So,
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 2: but they did say her lure was not just in
• 2:39:09
  Speaker 2: her dance. But in the mystique that she created around herself,
• 2:39:14
  Speaker 2: she was the original Victoria secret because she knew how
• 2:39:18
  Speaker 2: to keep the secret because my grandmother, that's what my
• 2:39:24
  Speaker 2: mama said. She's like, yeah, Victoria, Oh no, you are
• 2:39:30
  Speaker 2: just fine. So she claimed to be a I think
• 2:39:36
  Speaker 2: it's pronounced havanas princess. We're just gonna go with it.
• 2:39:43
  Speaker 2: Raised in the temples of the East and trained in
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 2: the sacred dance of Hindu gods. The backstory, which was
• 2:39:51
  Speaker 2: entirely fabricated, played into the Western fascination with the exotic
• 2:39:56
  Speaker 2: and added to her appeal. Her performances were as both
• 2:40:00
  Speaker 2: erotic and spiritual, a combination that intrigued and scandalized her audiences.
• 2:40:09
  Speaker 2: As her fame grew, so did her connections with powerful men.
• 2:40:15
  Speaker 2: Of course it did, so Mata Hari became a courtesan,
• 2:40:20
  Speaker 2: maintaining relationships with high ranking military officers, diplomats, and politicians
• 2:40:27
  Speaker 2: across Europe. These relationships provided her with financial security and
• 2:40:33
  Speaker 2: feather elevated her status in society. So she, in my thought,
• 2:40:40
  Speaker 2: was the first madame or woman working lady before it
• 2:40:49
  Speaker 2: just lost my mind because I didn't write it down.
• 2:40:54
  Speaker 2: The Chicken ranch Dolly pardon, I can't think of it. Oh,
• 2:41:01
  Speaker 2: I can't think of the name of the movie. Guys
• 2:41:05
  Speaker 2: right down the road twenty four miles to a week
• 2:41:08
  Speaker 2: get anyway. So she became that. So she was accepted
• 2:41:16
  Speaker 2: into society, which normally women in that category are not.
• 2:41:22
  Speaker 2: So that told you she was something special because Dolly
• 2:41:25
  Speaker 2: Parton's character in the Chicken Ranch movie that I can't
• 2:41:30
  Speaker 2: think of she was accepted. But best little horrorhouse, oh,
• 2:41:35
  Speaker 2: best little hoe house in Texas. But I didn't know
• 2:41:41
  Speaker 2: if we were allowed to say that word.
• 2:41:44
  Speaker 3: I've again, Hey, hose show is on this channel. We're okay.
• 2:41:48
  Speaker 2: If you haven't seen that movie, I would recommend to
• 2:41:51
  Speaker 2: everybody see it because Dolly's just great in it. But however,
• 2:41:56
  Speaker 2: it also exposed her to the dangers of the international intrigue,
• 2:42:01
  Speaker 2: particularly as Europe moved closer to war. With the outbreak
• 2:42:06
  Speaker 2: of World War One in nineteen fourteen, Mata Hari's life
• 2:42:10
  Speaker 2: took a dangerous turn. As a Dutch national, she was
• 2:42:15
  Speaker 2: able to travel freely across borders, which was a privilege
• 2:42:20
  Speaker 2: that most couldn't claim. However, her frequent travels in her
• 2:42:25
  Speaker 2: high profile connections soon attracted attention of various intelligence agencies
• 2:42:31
  Speaker 2: who begin to suspect that she might be involved in espionage.
• 2:42:37
  Speaker 2: They thought she was trading secrets instead of her body.
• 2:42:41
  Speaker 2: Let's just call a spade a spade. But I mean,
• 2:42:45
  Speaker 2: the war did create a climate of suspicion and fear
• 2:42:50
  Speaker 2: where even the most innocent actions could be interpreted as treasonous.
• 2:42:57
  Speaker 3: I would like to you know, it's a trope I
• 2:43:01
  Speaker 3: know at this point, or a cliche in my in
• 2:43:04
  Speaker 3: my scripts, but I would like to say tale as
• 2:43:09
  Speaker 3: old at time. I'm just saying, like I just there
• 2:43:19
  Speaker 3: is no there is no better there's no better explanation
• 2:43:25
  Speaker 3: of those those who don't understand history are doomed to
• 2:43:28
  Speaker 3: repeat it than the scripts that I usually do because
• 2:43:31
  Speaker 3: in so many at least eighty percent, that phrase can
• 2:43:35
  Speaker 3: be used.
• 2:43:37
  Speaker 2: Here we are now, Sammy says, reminds me of the
• 2:43:41
  Speaker 2: Ribas song Fancy. I will tell you, Sammy, that is
• 2:43:47
  Speaker 2: the only song I will ever do on karaoke because
• 2:43:53
  Speaker 2: it is the only song I can carry a tune on.
• 2:43:57
  Speaker 3: Come in to you live the next time that Terry
• 2:44:00
  Speaker 3: and I are together. Fancy by Reba.
• 2:44:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, as long as I'm not on purpose at or
• 2:44:05
  Speaker 2: pain meds.
• 2:44:07
  Speaker 3: That's exactly when it should happen.
• 2:44:09
  Speaker 2: Now we just well yeah, no, no, no. But she
• 2:44:15
  Speaker 2: had a glamorous lifestyle and she had a mysterious persona
• 2:44:19
  Speaker 2: because she wasn't yeaping all of her secrets. Women today
• 2:44:24
  Speaker 2: me included, I tell it all like double H knows.
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 2: If I ever was to make a mistake and kiss
• 2:44:31
  Speaker 2: a guy or cheat on him. I am the type
• 2:44:34
  Speaker 2: of woman that would come home and telling I would
• 2:44:37
  Speaker 2: walk in the door. I would walk in the door
• 2:44:40
  Speaker 2: and tell I can't keep a secret. I've kept two
• 2:44:46
  Speaker 2: secrets in my life. One was an engagement and one
• 2:44:49
  Speaker 2: was about a baby. Now, when I say that I
• 2:44:52
  Speaker 2: can keep a secret from the person who shouldn't know,
• 2:44:55
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to tell double H everything, we don't
• 2:44:59
  Speaker 2: have secret. He has secrets and I don't have secrets.
• 2:45:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, now, hold on a second, shade throne. Shade throne.
• 2:45:11
  Speaker 2: Well, I only say that because he's never looked at
• 2:45:13
  Speaker 2: me in the eye and said, I have no secrets
• 2:45:16
  Speaker 2: from you.
• 2:45:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, maybe he's just uncomfortable with eye contact.
• 2:45:24
  Speaker 2: He ain't got no secrets. I know he ain't got
• 2:45:27
  Speaker 2: no secrets because he knows I know where the shovel
• 2:45:30
  Speaker 2: is I know how to get rid of him.
• 2:45:33
  Speaker 3: That's one of my favorite signs. I saw that you're
• 2:45:35
  Speaker 3: during hollow ween. No trespassing. We'll have a hard time
• 2:45:39
  Speaker 3: finding a spot for your body.
• 2:45:41
  Speaker 2: That's right, No, so good.
• 2:45:45
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 2:45:47
  Speaker 2: Mada did have another significant relationship during the war. It
• 2:45:50
  Speaker 2: was with Captain the doom Moslav, a young Russian officer
• 2:45:55
  Speaker 2: serving with the French army.
• 2:45:58
  Speaker 3: Sounds like a character in Indiana Jones because.
• 2:46:01
  Speaker 2: Somebody explain to that me a young Russian serving with
• 2:46:05
  Speaker 2: the French army. I know, but he was severely wounded
• 2:46:13
  Speaker 2: at nineteen sixteen, and he did lose sight in one eye.
• 2:46:19
  Speaker 3: Well one night will he was She was.
• 2:46:22
  Speaker 2: Desperate to see him. I thought that was funny. He
• 2:46:28
  Speaker 2: couldn't see her. She could see him anyway.
• 2:46:30
  Speaker 3: Oh so.
• 2:46:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not funny. I am not funny. We all know
• 2:46:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not funny.
• 2:46:37
  Speaker 3: No, I am two extremely high percentage beers. And I'm slow,
• 2:46:43
  Speaker 3: is what I am.
• 2:46:44
  Speaker 2: That's not what Carrie says. Anyway, Mata saw permission to
• 2:46:48
  Speaker 2: visit him at the front, a request that brought her
• 2:46:52
  Speaker 2: into contact with French intelligence. Got anything to say, nope, okay,
• 2:47:01
  Speaker 2: So of course the French were aware of her connections
• 2:47:04
  Speaker 2: and her ability to move around the connection.
• 2:47:08
  Speaker 3: I did have something to say, yes, and they.
• 2:47:10
  Speaker 2: Saw this as an opportunity to use her as a spy.
• 2:47:17
  Speaker 2: They approached her with a proposition in exchange for being
• 2:47:22
  Speaker 2: allowed to visit Muslov. Mata hariywood spy for France specific.
• 2:47:29
  Speaker 3: So uh huh. She was being propositioned rather than the
• 2:47:36
  Speaker 3: other around she was.
• 2:47:39
  Speaker 2: They wanted her to seduce the German Crown Prince Wilhelm
• 2:47:45
  Speaker 2: and extract military secrets from him, you know, like pillow talk.
• 2:47:51
  Speaker 3: Oh mmmm, it's just what happens before and or after
• 2:47:55
  Speaker 3: that is the problem.
• 2:47:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, but they were unaware that the crown Prince was
• 2:48:02
  Speaker 2: more of a figurehead than a real military leader. Now,
• 2:48:07
  Speaker 2: Mata agreed to the proposal, believing it would bring her
• 2:48:10
  Speaker 2: closer to her love Maslov. Like I said, Wilhelm was
• 2:48:15
  Speaker 2: just a figurehead. I also need to say her involvement
• 2:48:19
  Speaker 2: in espiage espiage espionage is still a matter of debate.
• 2:48:26
  Speaker 2: Some sources suggest that she did pass information to both
• 2:48:29
  Speaker 2: the French and the Germans, so she was playing both sides.
• 2:48:33
  Speaker 2: It was a double ended things.
• 2:48:34
  Speaker 3: It was an opportunity spy exactly so.
• 2:48:42
  Speaker 2: To be exactly. I love somebody I can't see O
• 2:48:47
  Speaker 2: Bell said. That is known as the honey trap exactly. Now,
• 2:48:53
  Speaker 2: the value of this information is questionable. Others argue that
• 2:48:57
  Speaker 2: she was simply a pawn used by both sides to
• 2:49:02
  Speaker 2: get what they wanted. What is clear is it? By
• 2:49:05
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, Mata Harry became a liability for friends and
• 2:49:10
  Speaker 2: intelligence who begin to see her as a potential double agent.
• 2:49:16
  Speaker 2: What is it he who pays plays? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 2:49:22
  Speaker 2: that's Double H knows never to play because he will pay.
• 2:49:30
  Speaker 2: I just need to say I would not kill him.
• 2:49:36
  Speaker 2: I've been married two other times. I would not kill
• 2:49:38
  Speaker 2: Double H for cheating on me.
• 2:49:41
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I feel like there are some
• 2:49:43
  Speaker 3: other candidates that are in line ahead of him.
• 2:49:46
  Speaker 2: But if Double H ever made that bad decision, there
• 2:49:49
  Speaker 2: is this thing called gorilla super glue that you can
• 2:49:52
  Speaker 2: put on their hands while they're sleeping, and you can
• 2:49:56
  Speaker 2: put it on their manhood, one hand on the manhood,
• 2:50:00
  Speaker 2: in one on the little jiggly balls. That is much
• 2:50:03
  Speaker 2: better than murder one on the little jiggly balls. And
• 2:50:11
  Speaker 2: he is well just the ping pong, okay, And he
• 2:50:16
  Speaker 2: is known about that from day one so I'm not
• 2:50:19
  Speaker 2: concerned murders too, is he? But Matta was arrested on
• 2:50:25
  Speaker 2: February thirteenth, nineteen seventeen, the day before Valentine's Day. You
• 2:50:32
  Speaker 2: think that's any I find that interesting. She was taken
• 2:50:37
  Speaker 2: into custody at the Hotel Elise Palace in Paris, in
• 2:50:41
  Speaker 2: charge with espionage for Germany. Now, the trial that followed
• 2:50:46
  Speaker 2: was one that was probably the most sensual, sensual sensational
• 2:50:52
  Speaker 2: of the war, because she was cast as the ultimate
• 2:50:56
  Speaker 2: Finn the tale they had met terry truecrat yet.
• 2:51:02
  Speaker 3: Bompa Pa.
• 2:51:04
  Speaker 2: So she was considered an unscrupulous woman who used her
• 2:51:08
  Speaker 2: charm and beauty to portray her adopted country. Anyway, However,
• 2:51:16
  Speaker 2: the evidence was largely largely circumstantial. The most damaging piece
• 2:51:22
  Speaker 2: was a series of intercepted German radio messages that referred
• 2:51:27
  Speaker 2: to a spy code named H twenty one. French intelligence
• 2:51:32
  Speaker 2: identified H twenty one as Matahari. However, there were significant
• 2:51:38
  Speaker 2: doubts about the reliability of this evidence. There were not
• 2:51:42
  Speaker 2: a lot of female spies, so for them to automatically
• 2:51:46
  Speaker 2: assume H twenty one is a female.
• 2:51:51
  Speaker 3: It seems convenient.
• 2:51:56
  Speaker 2: It does to me because somebody wanted her taken down, Yeah,
• 2:52:00
  Speaker 2: and disposed of, in my opinion, So the messages were
• 2:52:06
  Speaker 2: sent using a code that the Germans knew had been compromised,
• 2:52:11
  Speaker 2: leading some to believe that they were intended to frame
• 2:52:14
  Speaker 2: her as a double agent. Yeah. Now, during her trial,
• 2:52:26
  Speaker 2: her defense was severely limited. Her lawyer, Edward Clunette, was
• 2:52:32
  Speaker 2: not allowed to cross examine witnesses or present his own evidence.
• 2:52:39
  Speaker 2: So what in the hell how was that a trial?
• 2:52:42
  Speaker 3: Where we again.
• 2:52:45
  Speaker 2: In Paris in nineteen seventeen. I mean, why have a
• 2:52:56
  Speaker 2: defensive attorney if they are not allowed to defend you.
• 2:53:01
  Speaker 2: If you can't question people and you can't bring up
• 2:53:05
  Speaker 2: your own witnesses, why the hell is somebody getting paid?
• 2:53:09
  Speaker 2: That's like weathermen who don't do their job.
• 2:53:11
  Speaker 3: If you can't put forth or reasonable defense, like Odinites
• 2:53:16
  Speaker 3: murdered somebody instead of somebody else. What's the point? It's
• 2:53:21
  Speaker 3: still happening today, just in a different way.
• 2:53:23
  Speaker 2: It is in a different way, but back then we
• 2:53:27
  Speaker 2: weren't as knowledgeable as we are today. I find it
• 2:53:30
  Speaker 2: more offensive today fair but so. But the prosecution was
• 2:53:36
  Speaker 2: led by Captain Pierre Boucha Dawn, And my next question
• 2:53:41
  Speaker 2: is why does everybody have to be a captain? He's
• 2:53:45
  Speaker 2: a freaking attorney. Can we just not say he's a
• 2:53:49
  Speaker 2: solicitor because that's what they were called over there. But
• 2:53:54
  Speaker 2: he painted Mata as manipulative morally kerrun to woman who
• 2:54:01
  Speaker 2: used her body to gain influence and sell secrets. He
• 2:54:06
  Speaker 2: argued that her very femininity was proof of her guilt,
• 2:54:10
  Speaker 2: describing her as a born spy who was without scrupules
• 2:54:15
  Speaker 2: and accustomed to making use of men.
• 2:54:21
  Speaker 3: So demonizing.
• 2:54:24
  Speaker 2: So because of the way she looks and she was born,
• 2:54:29
  Speaker 2: that automatically proved her guilt. Could somebody please explain that
• 2:54:41
  Speaker 2: to me?
• 2:54:44
  Speaker 3: Make it make sense?
• 2:54:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, because they said she was accustomed to making
• 2:54:49
  Speaker 2: use of men, I believe men used her. She learned
• 2:54:54
  Speaker 2: how to use what she was learned when she was
• 2:54:56
  Speaker 2: in school, and that a head master tried to make
• 2:55:00
  Speaker 2: a move on her. She learned to use her feminine
• 2:55:05
  Speaker 2: wiles to become a successful exotic dancer.
• 2:55:11
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 2:55:13
  Speaker 2: So now the trial people say was more about creating
• 2:55:16
  Speaker 2: escapeescoat than seeking justice still happens today in twenty twenty four.
• 2:55:23
  Speaker 2: In nineteen seventeen, France was reeling from military failures, including
• 2:55:29
  Speaker 2: the disastrous novelle offense and widespread mutinies within the French army.
• 2:55:35
  Speaker 2: The country was on the verge of a collapse and
• 2:55:37
  Speaker 2: the government needed someone to blame, So why not pull
• 2:55:42
  Speaker 2: out Mata Harry with her foreign origins, her connections to
• 2:55:46
  Speaker 2: the enemy, and her scandalous lifestyle is the perfect target.
• 2:55:53
  Speaker 2: But it wasn't scandalous when everybody was paying to see her, right,
• 2:56:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, they raised her to her level, and now
• 2:56:06
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden it's scandalous because it didn't work
• 2:56:09
  Speaker 2: for them.
• 2:56:12
  Speaker 3: Yep. I mean, this is this is what it is.
• 2:56:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is the whole thing. You know, you
• 2:56:18
  Speaker 3: set somebody up and then when it's convenient, and to
• 2:56:22
  Speaker 3: be honest with you, you set them up with the
• 2:56:25
  Speaker 3: purpose of if it ever becomes convenient.
• 2:56:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 2:56:31
  Speaker 3: I mean that seems to be half the situation these days.
• 2:56:35
  Speaker 3: So Dale, as old as time, you.
• 2:56:41
  Speaker 2: Know that is becoming I mean yeah, but on July twenty,
• 2:56:45
  Speaker 2: fourth day after my birthday, but I wasn't born. In
• 2:56:48
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, she was found guilty of espionage and sentenced
• 2:56:53
  Speaker 2: to death. Throughout the trial, she maintained her innocence, insisting
• 2:56:58
  Speaker 2: that she had never spied for Germany, and that any
• 2:57:00
  Speaker 2: money she had received from German officials was payment for
• 2:57:05
  Speaker 2: her service as a courtesan, not as a spy. Her
• 2:57:09
  Speaker 2: police fell on deaf fears. So basically she's saying, they
• 2:57:14
  Speaker 2: paid me to do a job. I did the job.
• 2:57:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't sell secrets. I sold my body. So once
• 2:57:22
  Speaker 2: again they are penalizing her for what the men asked for.
• 2:57:28
  Speaker 3: Oh can I tell you I've said this many times,
• 2:57:33
  Speaker 3: not just tonight. I hate men.
• 2:57:38
  Speaker 2: I hate most men.
• 2:57:40
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I hate most men.
• 2:57:43
  Speaker 2: There's a few like doubleh. I'll keep it does.
• 2:57:46
  Speaker 3: Explain how I mean? Did I hate myself? So maybe
• 2:57:49
  Speaker 3: I do hate all most all? I don't know.
• 2:57:54
  Speaker 2: But would you say that you are one hundred percent man?
• 2:57:58
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 2:57:58
  Speaker 2: I like just went out. It must be eleven o'clock, Alexa,
• 2:58:05
  Speaker 2: turn on peak. Yes, my light's called.
• 2:58:10
  Speaker 3: No, So I would say no, I am not not
• 2:58:14
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent.
• 2:58:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know what my shirt says. It says
• 2:58:18
  Speaker 2: dogs make me happy, Humans make my head hurt. It's
• 2:58:24
  Speaker 2: not just men, it's just humans.
• 2:58:30
  Speaker 3: Except on Mondays it's me.
• 2:58:34
  Speaker 2: Can it be me on Wednesdays?
• 2:58:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, we'll share custody.
• 2:58:41
  Speaker 2: Now. Sadly, they executed Mada by a firing squad on
• 2:58:48
  Speaker 2: October fifteenth, which is double eight his birthday in nineteen seventeen.
• 2:58:55
  Speaker 2: But are you ready for this? She refused to be blind, unfolded,
• 2:59:01
  Speaker 2: and faced her executioners with courage and dignity. She reportedly
• 2:59:06
  Speaker 2: blew a kiss of the soldiers before they fired, which.
• 2:59:12
  Speaker 3: To me was the big I had never heard of
• 2:59:18
  Speaker 3: this story until just now, but I would call her
• 2:59:24
  Speaker 3: the most badass that I've ever I mean that.
• 2:59:31
  Speaker 2: She was born into wealth, wealth, was lost, got married,
• 2:59:37
  Speaker 2: went through tumultuous marriage, was beaten, child died. I mean,
• 2:59:42
  Speaker 2: this woman suffered trauma and still tried to, you know,
• 2:59:48
  Speaker 2: come out on top.
• 2:59:49
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 2:59:51
  Speaker 2: Her body was not claimed by her family, and it
• 2:59:56
  Speaker 2: was are you ready for this? Was used for medical research.
• 3:00:00
  Speaker 2: Her head was preserved and displayed in the Museum of
• 3:00:04
  Speaker 2: Anatomy in Paris. However, it was stolen sometime in the
• 3:00:10
  Speaker 2: mid twentieth century and is still missing to this day.
• 3:00:17
  Speaker 3: What huh huh.
• 3:00:24
  Speaker 2: Her family never claimed her because she became a courtesan
• 3:00:30
  Speaker 2: and they sold it and someone decapitated her and it
• 3:00:34
  Speaker 2: was there is. If you google her name, you can
• 3:00:37
  Speaker 2: see the museum and there's picture, yeah, but it's now missing.
• 3:00:45
  Speaker 2: So but her execution marked the end of her life,
• 3:00:50
  Speaker 2: but guys, it launched her in legend. JT. You hadn't
• 3:00:55
  Speaker 2: heard of her, but a lot of people have in
• 3:00:57
  Speaker 2: the years following her execution, and she became a symbol
• 3:01:01
  Speaker 2: of the dangers of seductive femininity, with a warning of
• 3:01:06
  Speaker 2: the consequences for women if you are too attractive, too
• 3:01:11
  Speaker 2: sensual outside of your home or your bedroom. And her
• 3:01:20
  Speaker 2: story has been retold is there's books, there's films, there's plays,
• 3:01:25
  Speaker 2: and they do call her the film fatale, a woman
• 3:01:28
  Speaker 2: whose beauty and sexuality made her both irresistible and dangerous.
• 3:01:35
  Speaker 2: Now grab your seat. In twenty seventeen, the French government
• 3:01:42
  Speaker 2: declassified over twelve hundred pages of documents related to her trial,
• 3:01:50
  Speaker 2: and these documents provide a whole lot of information. It
• 3:01:56
  Speaker 2: includes that the facts that much of the evidence used
• 3:02:00
  Speaker 2: against her were circumstantial and outright fabricated. People lied, They
• 3:02:10
  Speaker 2: just wanted to blame somebody. Now there are renewed calls
• 3:02:19
  Speaker 2: for her exoneration, and they say that it's highlighted the
• 3:02:25
  Speaker 2: extent to which she has shaped the political and the
• 3:02:30
  Speaker 2: social context of her time. But they are still trying
• 3:02:35
  Speaker 2: to get her exonerated for being innocent, because well, you know,
• 3:02:40
  Speaker 2: the information that was fabricated. She was not a spy.
• 3:02:47
  Speaker 3: It's not the US, it's friends. It's no chances are
• 3:02:50
  Speaker 3: if they push hard enough, they will retreat. That was offensive.
• 3:02:53
  Speaker 3: I'm kidding, it was a joke. I doesn't actually mean that,
• 3:02:58
  Speaker 3: but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's an infuriating and
• 3:03:05
  Speaker 3: amazing how like forty years later, but but uh, here
• 3:03:09
  Speaker 3: it happens again.
• 3:03:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at her. She was a woman, she
• 3:03:13
  Speaker 2: defied the conventions of her time, she lived life on
• 3:03:18
  Speaker 2: her own terms, and she became the casualty of a
• 3:03:24
  Speaker 2: world war. But also two men who wanted to take
• 3:03:30
  Speaker 2: her down. I mean, at the end of the day,
• 3:03:34
  Speaker 2: that's what it comes down to.
• 3:03:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I I said the whole
• 3:03:40
  Speaker 3: thing about France and retreat. But then I remember that
• 3:03:44
  Speaker 3: Lafayette kind of saved our ass.
• 3:03:46
  Speaker 2: So I know, it's kind of like you got to
• 3:03:52
  Speaker 2: get the scale out right.
• 3:03:54
  Speaker 3: Here's the thing. I'm an equal opportunity offender, but not
• 3:03:58
  Speaker 3: in a way that would get us canceled.
• 3:04:00
  Speaker 2: So take that as you will now, and I mean
• 3:04:05
  Speaker 2: I try to think I'm not saying she was a
• 3:04:09
  Speaker 2: spy or she wasn't a spy, even though they're saying
• 3:04:11
  Speaker 2: these documents proved she wasn't. Look at how far she
• 3:04:16
  Speaker 2: came from being raised in privilege, lost privilege, cast out
• 3:04:22
  Speaker 2: from society, went to live with somebody. Then she's sexually
• 3:04:28
  Speaker 2: assaulted in school. Then she winds up marrying a guy
• 3:04:32
  Speaker 2: at eighteen who beat her. Did all of these things.
• 3:04:35
  Speaker 2: She had two kids, One of the kids dies, then
• 3:04:39
  Speaker 2: the other one gets taken from her because she got divorced,
• 3:04:42
  Speaker 2: had no money. I mean, she did what she needed
• 3:04:47
  Speaker 2: to do to take care of herself. And today's time
• 3:04:54
  Speaker 2: we say that pretty people, your beauty can get you
• 3:04:58
  Speaker 2: really far ahead and you will succeed. Her beauty somewhat
• 3:05:04
  Speaker 2: caused her to be killed because everybody liked her wanted
• 3:05:09
  Speaker 2: to talk to her. They assumed she was playing both sides. So,
• 3:05:13
  Speaker 2: and I'm only using this because it's so relevant right now,
• 3:05:17
  Speaker 2: that would be saying, if I was a beautiful young
• 3:05:21
  Speaker 2: woman and I was talking to Republicans and Democrats, I
• 3:05:27
  Speaker 2: must be a spy for both sides, so I must
• 3:05:30
  Speaker 2: be killed. Why can't I be just a pretty female
• 3:05:36
  Speaker 2: that is nice and kind to people. Why do I
• 3:05:43
  Speaker 2: have to be a spy just because I talked to
• 3:05:46
  Speaker 2: both sides.
• 3:05:48
  Speaker 3: Right right, right right? So I mean that was my case.
• 3:05:57
  Speaker 3: It's to look something up.
• 3:06:02
  Speaker 2: So Sammy said, they were intrigued by her, but then
• 3:06:05
  Speaker 2: they wanted to hate her for who she was. Abso
• 3:06:08
  Speaker 2: freaking lutely, I think men were intrigued with her self
• 3:06:12
  Speaker 2: confidence and the fact that she could do these dances.
• 3:06:16
  Speaker 2: She was sentual. Mind you, she wasn't naked, you know,
• 3:06:20
  Speaker 2: she was in a bikini, for God's sake, but she
• 3:06:23
  Speaker 2: did it in such a way that she owned her body.
• 3:06:26
  Speaker 2: She was confident in it, and the guys were intrigued
• 3:06:29
  Speaker 2: by that, but then they persecuted her for that because
• 3:06:34
  Speaker 2: she didn't do what she was told, when she was
• 3:06:36
  Speaker 2: told and why she was told. I love it when
• 3:06:43
  Speaker 2: you get that scow and you get the tom Selik
• 3:06:47
  Speaker 2: crack on your forehead.
• 3:06:50
  Speaker 3: Oh do I you do?
• 3:06:51
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I so see tom Selleck.
• 3:06:54
  Speaker 3: There's just there's a there's a piece of me.
• 3:07:00
  Speaker 2: Just to bet is trying to have my lag.
• 3:07:05
  Speaker 3: And those that say no, they're lying. It's just that
• 3:07:11
  Speaker 3: there is so much of her that reminds me of
• 3:07:17
  Speaker 3: the character in mulin rouge mm hmm. And I'm trying
• 3:07:22
  Speaker 3: so desperately to find a connection somewhere I haven't.
• 3:07:25
  Speaker 2: I tried. I tried the rabbit hole, so there has
• 3:07:29
  Speaker 2: to be some unspoken I even went down the rabbit
• 3:07:32
  Speaker 2: hole a pretty woman.
• 3:07:35
  Speaker 3: Mm.
• 3:07:36
  Speaker 2: So I mean I went down those rabbit holes, so no.
• 3:07:41
  Speaker 3: Fascinating, you know, I it's so funny. I think Number one,
• 3:07:51
  Speaker 3: I think this topic was timely and we didn't.
• 3:07:53
  Speaker 2: Even I also said we picked this months ago, and
• 3:07:57
  Speaker 2: we were actually supposed to have recorded this back in September.
• 3:08:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I also I also think that we needed this,
• 3:08:07
  Speaker 3: which is why this episode really resembles our old form,
• 3:08:13
  Speaker 3: which is longer. You know. I think we've done pretty good. Two. Thanks,
• 3:08:22
  Speaker 3: thank you, thank you. I'll look for my flowers in
• 3:08:25
  Speaker 3: the mail.
• 3:08:29
  Speaker 2: I didn't get, so you're not getting flowers.
• 3:08:34
  Speaker 3: I was about to say I get more flamboyant with
• 3:08:38
  Speaker 3: the more I drink, but but that that took the
• 3:08:40
  Speaker 3: cake right there, So maybe we should end that.
• 3:08:43
  Speaker 2: I think double a.
• 3:08:44
  Speaker 3: I think the bad did he say? Huh?
• 3:08:52
  Speaker 2: Before we go? We need to announce the partyscribers the
• 3:09:00
  Speaker 2: last episode of the year.
• 3:09:02
  Speaker 3: Why me? Okay, I will so because you've got the specifics.
• 3:09:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and I've Dreenklas. So December sixteenth, it is
• 3:09:14
  Speaker 2: a Monday. I think it's a Monday. It's a Monday.
• 3:09:18
  Speaker 2: It will be our final episode of the year, and
• 3:09:21
  Speaker 2: it will be our one thousand subscriber party. And guys,
• 3:09:26
  Speaker 2: we have we know, we've been putting out a video
• 3:09:29
  Speaker 2: of what we're going to do. We have some unhinged stuff,
• 3:09:34
  Speaker 2: so you're gonna want to be here to join us.
• 3:09:38
  Speaker 2: Not only is JT going to do his makeup lesson,
• 3:09:43
  Speaker 2: he is going to eat the hot sauce. I am
• 3:09:47
  Speaker 2: going to one of my besties house who went to
• 3:09:51
  Speaker 2: culinary school. She is going to cook me food that
• 3:09:55
  Speaker 2: I don't eat because there's a lot I don't eat, lamb,
• 3:09:58
  Speaker 2: I don't eat, dear, There's just a lot of things
• 3:10:00
  Speaker 2: I don't eat. She has carte blanc to make what
• 3:10:04
  Speaker 2: she wants. She back when True Crime and Wine Time started,
• 3:10:08
  Speaker 2: before JT and I hooked up, she was a guest
• 3:10:10
  Speaker 2: multiple times on the show, so she's been a friend
• 3:10:13
  Speaker 2: of the show for a long time. And we're going
• 3:10:19
  Speaker 2: to announce some new shows that are coming in the
• 3:10:22
  Speaker 2: new year. And guys, there's going to be some new
• 3:10:27
  Speaker 2: host that are coming. You will have to host someone.
• 3:10:34
  Speaker 3: Uh huh, new shows, new genres. Uh huh, we are
• 3:10:41
  Speaker 3: you don't.
• 3:10:42
  Speaker 2: So we're off the diet.
• 3:10:45
  Speaker 3: We're growing, We are growing in Leon's getting larger. That's
• 3:10:51
  Speaker 3: what airplane taught me. Here's the thing. I'm really excited
• 3:10:56
  Speaker 3: because I knew that, like the bookmark was going to
• 3:10:58
  Speaker 3: be a thousand, and usually one thousand is just like
• 3:11:02
  Speaker 3: that's like the lynchpin, right. So I'm hoping that by
• 3:11:06
  Speaker 3: December sixteenth we are at eleven hundred or more. We
• 3:11:11
  Speaker 3: hit one thousand and then searge to one thousand and
• 3:11:13
  Speaker 3: forty eight, and so pushing, pushing, pushing, and I do
• 3:11:18
  Speaker 3: want to say I do want to say this. And
• 3:11:25
  Speaker 3: because of you all mods staff, all the hard work,
• 3:11:34
  Speaker 3: within the last twenty eight days, we have received over
• 3:11:38
  Speaker 3: twenty five thousand more views than usual. We have received
• 3:11:43
  Speaker 3: two hundred and almost two hundred and seventy more hours
• 3:11:46
  Speaker 3: viewed than usual, one hundred and twelve more subscribers than usual.
• 3:11:54
  Speaker 3: These are things that you all, we do put the
• 3:11:57
  Speaker 3: content out there, and yes, we're the we put our
• 3:12:01
  Speaker 3: I really struggle saying figurehead now, uh but no, but
• 3:12:11
  Speaker 3: like it's because of you all, and and and this
• 3:12:15
  Speaker 3: couldn't happen without you, and we do this for you.
• 3:12:19
  Speaker 3: I don't think in my however many years I've known you, Terry,
• 3:12:23
  Speaker 3: that you have ever said I I I I I
• 3:12:27
  Speaker 3: I I want Yes, we want this to be successful,
• 3:12:32
  Speaker 3: but we wanted to be successful for you all, and
• 3:12:36
  Speaker 3: you all are our focus. The audiences are focused, and
• 3:12:42
  Speaker 3: we are willing to listen to any feedback and all feedback.
• 3:12:45
  Speaker 3: But you all have been so gracious and I just
• 3:12:48
  Speaker 3: encourage you to continue to share and to push this
• 3:12:52
  Speaker 3: out to more people. I think we've got something.
• 3:12:59
  Speaker 2: We have something else.
• 3:13:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, maybe we're going to tell you this now.
• 3:13:05
  Speaker 2: We're not breaking up. We also on that special show
• 3:13:10
  Speaker 2: December sixteenth. You can all email us questions to be
• 3:13:16
  Speaker 2: asked of me and JT. We will answer any question
• 3:13:22
  Speaker 2: you send. There is no topic that we will not
• 3:13:26
  Speaker 2: answer unless you ask us if we've called somebody. So
• 3:13:30
  Speaker 2: other than that, we will answer all questions. You can
• 3:13:34
  Speaker 2: email me JT or Lama, our producer, and get those
• 3:13:43
  Speaker 2: to us. Those questions will be asked and we will
• 3:13:48
  Speaker 2: answer them. So JT, do you agree to answer any question,
• 3:13:54
  Speaker 2: no matter how difficult.
• 3:13:56
  Speaker 3: The topic. You know, when it comes to pride and dignity,
• 3:14:03
  Speaker 3: I have none, so of course I agree.
• 3:14:07
  Speaker 2: So you can ask us anything, and we're gonna have
• 3:14:12
  Speaker 2: some special guests, some friends of the show. So we
• 3:14:15
  Speaker 2: are talking to some fellow podcasters that we met at
• 3:14:19
  Speaker 2: the podcast Festival, some podcasters that before we started live
• 3:14:23
  Speaker 2: streaming that we did, like some Justice League stuff with
• 3:14:29
  Speaker 2: back in the day. Maybe some families from Midday Missing,
• 3:14:37
  Speaker 2: and we might even get I know, do you not
• 3:14:42
  Speaker 2: remember four and a half years ago us doing the
• 3:14:46
  Speaker 2: episode of The Cheerleader. Mom and you were just a
• 3:14:50
  Speaker 2: guest on True Crime and Wine Time and we were
• 3:14:53
  Speaker 2: talking about my mom, Mama Bear and the card came
• 3:14:57
  Speaker 2: fluttering down while we were talking on a shelf. I
• 3:15:02
  Speaker 2: was so disappointed that I went to go pull that
• 3:15:04
  Speaker 2: video because we were on zoom back then we had
• 3:15:08
  Speaker 2: no I mean, we still don't have money, but we
• 3:15:10
  Speaker 2: really did not have money then and I deleted them
• 3:15:15
  Speaker 2: off for space on the drive. But that is the
• 3:15:20
  Speaker 2: moment I knew you and I were meant to be.
• 3:15:23
  Speaker 2: That was my mom's blessing that we were good.
• 3:15:30
  Speaker 3: There. There are very few things in this world that
• 3:15:33
  Speaker 3: have convinced me of a further life later. I agreed,
• 3:15:41
  Speaker 3: and I am always and I have prided myself on
• 3:15:46
  Speaker 3: always being skeptical because that's when I have questions further right,
• 3:15:52
  Speaker 3: But that moment, like with no reason whatsoever, no fan,
• 3:15:59
  Speaker 3: no earth quake, know nothing.
• 3:16:01
  Speaker 2: I was in my closet then, yep it was. I
• 3:16:04
  Speaker 2: was in the closet with the door shut and the
• 3:16:08
  Speaker 2: card was in a closed box.
• 3:16:11
  Speaker 3: Sammy's right, it's a little ditty about J T and Terry.
• 3:16:17
  Speaker 2: You know what, One day we should learn like practice
• 3:16:21
  Speaker 2: and we could actually learn to sing it and I
• 3:16:24
  Speaker 2: could learn to get on a key. But it helps
• 3:16:27
  Speaker 2: if you have music to it.
• 3:16:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll play the guitar and I'll record the music.
• 3:16:34
  Speaker 3: And then he just all right, oh boy, your mother
• 3:16:39
  Speaker 3: was an Indian net Who are you talking.
• 3:16:42
  Speaker 2: Mama bear? I my grandmother was. I don't think my
• 3:16:48
  Speaker 2: mom was. And I've got cousins because yes, I can
• 3:16:53
  Speaker 2: still say scalp wait I N d I A N
• 3:16:56
  Speaker 2: s scalpum Indian scalp them. So yes, I can still
• 3:16:59
  Speaker 2: sing the song. Double H's back there in his office.
• 3:17:04
  Speaker 2: He's like, what are you doing? You're singing?
• 3:17:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, He's like, this is not your brand, get back
• 3:17:10
  Speaker 3: on brand.
• 3:17:11
  Speaker 2: He's like, you need to stick to country girl, and
• 3:17:14
  Speaker 2: you need to not be drinking when you do it.
• 3:17:16
  Speaker 2: So we have all of those exciting things. I will
• 3:17:19
  Speaker 2: tell you. One of the things I'm most excited about
• 3:17:22
  Speaker 2: is the new shows and that we have new hosts
• 3:17:26
  Speaker 2: who are joining the podcasting world.
• 3:17:30
  Speaker 3: I there there. If you don't know this about me yet,
• 3:17:38
  Speaker 3: there is nothing I love more than we should do that.
• 3:17:43
  Speaker 3: But mine will never show up, promise you.
• 3:17:48
  Speaker 2: But she could because we could do like I was
• 3:17:52
  Speaker 2: going to do for monkey Butt. I was going to
• 3:17:54
  Speaker 2: do a cutout of a smiley face for her to
• 3:17:58
  Speaker 2: hold because I don't want her on camera, right. We
• 3:18:01
  Speaker 2: could do that for Carrie.
• 3:18:03
  Speaker 3: For those of us who do have public speaking anxiety
• 3:18:07
  Speaker 3: and are a very introvert, a cutout does not help
• 3:18:11
  Speaker 3: because there's still verbal communication that is necessary to.
• 3:18:14
  Speaker 2: Just record it the four of us when we're together,
• 3:18:17
  Speaker 2: or the three of us like when I come to Richmond.
• 3:18:20
  Speaker 2: That's the other exciting thing that we should tell. We
• 3:18:24
  Speaker 2: have started sending out emails to Wineries to do in
• 3:18:27
  Speaker 2: person live shows. Within an hour we got our first response,
• 3:18:34
  Speaker 2: Oh hello, I just had to stop what I was
• 3:18:38
  Speaker 2: saying I, Oh, Papa brute Crime, Oh, Papa Bruecon, you
• 3:18:49
  Speaker 2: can clip that. I mean he has hot. I but now,
• 3:18:56
  Speaker 2: Mama brute Crime is gonna like at me. And your
• 3:19:00
  Speaker 2: brother's hot too.
• 3:19:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, my brother's the good looking one of the bunch.
• 3:19:06
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, mister six foot four military built? Yes, I mean,
• 3:19:11
  Speaker 3: can I do this?
• 3:19:13
  Speaker 2: Okay? Anyway you might have to. I don't know, but
• 3:19:21
  Speaker 2: now I totally lost the freak where I was.
• 3:19:26
  Speaker 3: Lost the plot.
• 3:19:27
  Speaker 2: But yes, we could record it. Oh, the live shows.
• 3:19:30
  Speaker 2: So if you know of any wineries in your areas
• 3:19:35
  Speaker 2: that you want us to add to our list. So
• 3:19:38
  Speaker 2: the team we're sending out emails, we're sending them. We
• 3:19:41
  Speaker 2: give them a couple of options. They can either sponsor
• 3:19:44
  Speaker 2: us for a month, or we can do in person
• 3:19:46
  Speaker 2: live shows. Because the whole point of twenty twenty five
• 3:19:50
  Speaker 2: is we want to get out and meet you guys
• 3:19:53
  Speaker 2: face to.
• 3:19:54
  Speaker 3: Face and listen. This is not There is nobody I
• 3:20:03
  Speaker 3: would rather be working with than Terry when it comes
• 3:20:06
  Speaker 3: to this, because there is nobody who is more motivated
• 3:20:09
  Speaker 3: and positive and confident than Terry. Everything that I am lacking,
• 3:20:14
  Speaker 3: Terry has, and I am so glad she does and
• 3:20:18
  Speaker 3: so when we say we want this media channel to explode,
• 3:20:24
  Speaker 3: we are not kidding. It is not a joke. We
• 3:20:29
  Speaker 3: are pushing for this, and not only and I say we,
• 3:20:33
  Speaker 3: and I mean a very very large collective we because
• 3:20:37
  Speaker 3: I have never met such dedicated, hard working, talented and
• 3:20:41
  Speaker 3: people willing to put hours upon hours upon hours on
• 3:20:45
  Speaker 3: the line than our staff has and.
• 3:20:48
  Speaker 2: Couldn't do it without them. We would have never made
• 3:20:52
  Speaker 2: it to the thousand subscribers without them. Yes, I just
• 3:20:59
  Speaker 2: put it in play. Please email us those And if
• 3:21:03
  Speaker 2: I mean breweries or wineries is great, yes. And if
• 3:21:07
  Speaker 2: you have a personal connection there, that's even better. I mean,
• 3:21:12
  Speaker 2: if I need to, I can pick up the phone
• 3:21:15
  Speaker 2: and make a phone call.
• 3:21:18
  Speaker 3: We say wineries. Any place that you think that our show,
• 3:21:23
  Speaker 3: or truly any of the shows on this channel would
• 3:21:27
  Speaker 3: be good at it's like playing that we will take it.
• 3:21:33
  Speaker 3: We won't run necessarily right away reach out, but that
• 3:21:36
  Speaker 3: does not mean that we will not reach out. And
• 3:21:39
  Speaker 3: and if you do have, like Terry said, connections, that
• 3:21:42
  Speaker 3: is that is fantastic and we would love to be
• 3:21:46
  Speaker 3: able to be there.
• 3:21:50
  Speaker 2: And the work out is but JT has the stage experience,
• 3:21:57
  Speaker 2: so that works because oh, absolutely, hot doggeries work and
• 3:22:05
  Speaker 2: you know what meat, And I'm also going to say
• 3:22:09
  Speaker 2: that I so wish we live closer because one of
• 3:22:13
  Speaker 2: the things I want to do after we get a
• 3:22:16
  Speaker 2: couple of these live shows under our belt is I
• 3:22:19
  Speaker 2: want to start doing where we raise money for different
• 3:22:24
  Speaker 2: charities that we and dogs and cats are going to
• 3:22:30
  Speaker 2: be part of that and goats just going to say that.
• 3:22:34
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that I do not have JT
• 3:22:39
  Speaker 2: or Lama's approval on, and I am just going to
• 3:22:43
  Speaker 2: make the executive decision because I decided that I was
• 3:22:47
  Speaker 2: going to do it that I will also want to
• 3:22:51
  Speaker 2: plan a TCWT meetup that is just for you guys
• 3:23:01
  Speaker 2: to come and meet with us and know we are
• 3:23:04
  Speaker 2: not going to be like another podcast who charges you
• 3:23:08
  Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars to come and do that, plus you
• 3:23:10
  Speaker 2: have to pay for your hotel. Not going to do that.
• 3:23:13
  Speaker 2: I want us to get to where we can get
• 3:23:17
  Speaker 2: me and JT, Lama, Rudy in the same place you
• 3:23:22
  Speaker 2: guys pay for your hotel and let's all just hang out.
• 3:23:25
  Speaker 2: I want to get to know you guys more, and
• 3:23:29
  Speaker 2: I want to be able to invite like Chas's family,
• 3:23:32
  Speaker 2: Troy's family, all these families from Midday missing to come
• 3:23:36
  Speaker 2: as well, because I feel like there are family too.
• 3:23:39
  Speaker 2: So it's not just about doing shows. I want to
• 3:23:44
  Speaker 2: have what I want to call a family reunion. It's
• 3:23:47
  Speaker 2: going to be the Pink Family Reunion.
• 3:23:50
  Speaker 3: This is if if I was ever and if you
• 3:23:58
  Speaker 3: would have told me three or four years ago I
• 3:24:00
  Speaker 3: would have been doing I would be doing this. I
• 3:24:02
  Speaker 3: would have laughed. I would have said it's cool. But yeah, no,
• 3:24:06
  Speaker 3: there's no possibility. It's not possible. This is why I
• 3:24:10
  Speaker 3: do this. I do do this. Number one, sure, personally
• 3:24:16
  Speaker 3: it scratches the bug that I have to perform, but
• 3:24:22
  Speaker 3: oh well, listen, performance is worth nothing if you do
• 3:24:29
  Speaker 3: not have a and it's not an audience. You all
• 3:24:31
  Speaker 3: are community. If you do not have a community to
• 3:24:34
  Speaker 3: share it with, it's worth nothing.
• 3:24:37
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 3:24:39
  Speaker 3: I have always and for those of you who have
• 3:24:42
  Speaker 3: known me for at least the past year and a half,
• 3:24:44
  Speaker 3: I have always always worked to build a positive community,
• 3:24:51
  Speaker 3: one that has each other's backs. One's one that doesn't
• 3:24:54
  Speaker 3: doesn't backstab, one that doesn't talk about one that those
• 3:24:59
  Speaker 3: yeah not with others correct and and and and that
• 3:25:05
  Speaker 3: is very important to me. And I know that as
• 3:25:06
  Speaker 3: the channel gets bigger, some of those people will make
• 3:25:09
  Speaker 3: themselves known. And but but we have a strong culture
• 3:25:14
  Speaker 3: right now, and that culture will weed out those people.
• 3:25:21
  Speaker 3: And that has always been my goal because this world
• 3:25:26
  Speaker 3: of podcasting and live streaming and social media and stuff
• 3:25:30
  Speaker 3: is so toxic and and I don't I I do
• 3:25:35
  Speaker 3: not pretend or I don't uh, you know, I don't
• 3:25:39
  Speaker 3: put myself forward to be above it all, or or
• 3:25:44
  Speaker 3: think that we are invincible, because we're not to that
• 3:25:47
  Speaker 3: kind of stuff. We've seen it with some of the
• 3:25:49
  Speaker 3: trolls that have showed up. But where we prove our
• 3:25:56
  Speaker 3: worth in that is with you all and how you
• 3:26:00
  Speaker 3: respond to it, which is really by not responding to
• 3:26:03
  Speaker 3: it because it's not worth it, the attention not worth it.
• 3:26:08
  Speaker 3: And so for me, building this channel is really building
• 3:26:15
  Speaker 3: this community.
• 3:26:16
  Speaker 2: Muse.
• 3:26:18
  Speaker 3: You all are my diamonds.
• 3:26:22
  Speaker 2: You are. But I will say if you are a
• 3:26:27
  Speaker 2: sheep and a diamond cloth, I have no problem cutting
• 3:26:32
  Speaker 2: you out. I do not have do not have the
• 3:26:38
  Speaker 2: tolerance for that fake shift. I don't. I know that's
• 3:26:42
  Speaker 2: a little you know, blunt, but I don't. And like
• 3:26:46
  Speaker 2: I was telling a mom that I talked to for
• 3:26:49
  Speaker 2: somebody who's coming on Midday Missing? She goes, why do
• 3:26:52
  Speaker 2: you do this? I said, because I care? Double shall
• 3:26:58
  Speaker 2: tell you. My heart is so big that it gets
• 3:27:01
  Speaker 2: me in trouble. But I care, and I shout on
• 3:27:05
  Speaker 2: bitches that we need to put on merch did you Yeah,
• 3:27:12
  Speaker 2: that's another thing we will be announcing.
• 3:27:16
  Speaker 3: I started working on that today, so we have that.
• 3:27:21
  Speaker 2: So we have a lot of good things that are
• 3:27:23
  Speaker 2: going to come on that December sixteenth show. And there
• 3:27:30
  Speaker 2: was something else I needed to tell you, guys. Oh,
• 3:27:34
  Speaker 2: just to let everybody know, Monday's Midday Missing will not happen.
• 3:27:39
  Speaker 2: We were supposed to have Troy Galloway's mom on. I, however,
• 3:27:46
  Speaker 2: have Dury Duty, which I am so freaking.
• 3:27:50
  Speaker 3: Excited about, so indeed create its own episode.
• 3:27:56
  Speaker 2: It's a civil case.
• 3:27:59
  Speaker 3: No, it couldn't be fun. Sometimes those are the best.
• 3:28:05
  Speaker 2: So we have canceled Monday Midday Missing intentively we're going
• 3:28:09
  Speaker 2: to do it on Thursday unless I get chosen. And
• 3:28:13
  Speaker 2: at last, but just everybody mark your calendars for December sixteenth.
• 3:28:19
  Speaker 3: Thank you for letting it through. I what bells allowed
• 3:28:28
  Speaker 3: the comment of shine on to oh, okay, see you
• 3:28:32
  Speaker 3: want hey? Is that cool? Nicely done.
• 3:28:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just so everybody knows. I don't get too much
• 3:28:39
  Speaker 2: into the mod space because it's one thing I love
• 3:28:44
  Speaker 2: about JT and I. We each know what we're good at,
• 3:28:48
  Speaker 2: what we're not good at, and then we have areas
• 3:28:50
  Speaker 2: that neither one of us are great at, and that's
• 3:28:52
  Speaker 2: where we look for other people. And we don't play
• 3:28:55
  Speaker 2: in each other's sandboxes. We keep each other informed. And
• 3:28:58
  Speaker 2: I trust GT you. I don't worry about mods. So
• 3:29:03
  Speaker 2: all these mod commands and STUFFT it just happens. It
• 3:29:07
  Speaker 2: is JT magic in my world.
• 3:29:09
  Speaker 3: Speaking of which, speaking of that magic, if you are
• 3:29:13
  Speaker 3: watching this now, or if you're watching this as part
• 3:29:16
  Speaker 3: of the replay crew and you you are interested in
• 3:29:20
  Speaker 3: becoming a part of the team, know this. We cannot
• 3:29:25
  Speaker 3: pay you right now now, not now. But if you
• 3:29:31
  Speaker 3: have a talent for writing, for researching, for for social media,
• 3:29:39
  Speaker 3: for editing, anything anything at all, just reach out to us.
• 3:29:43
  Speaker 3: Even if you don't have those things that I just mentioned.
• 3:29:48
  Speaker 3: You're in the business of encouraging and motivating and empowering
• 3:29:53
  Speaker 3: you to do something you absolutely love to help out
• 3:29:57
  Speaker 3: and and so just reach out to us and any
• 3:30:00
  Speaker 3: way possible, social media, email, whatever it is, because I
• 3:30:07
  Speaker 3: talk to you about it for the future.
• 3:30:09
  Speaker 2: Our goal for the future, the reason we started TCWT
• 3:30:13
  Speaker 2: Media and the partnership and the company. We want to
• 3:30:17
  Speaker 2: make it a company. And that's why we're bringing on
• 3:30:21
  Speaker 2: new shows, new creators, because we know y'all don't want
• 3:30:24
  Speaker 2: to see our faces all the time. We know you
• 3:30:26
  Speaker 2: love us, but you don't want to see us all that.
• 3:30:28
  Speaker 2: Oh hello, Kelly, I want I love it. You can
• 3:30:33
  Speaker 2: help create march. I want a shirt that says sparkle
• 3:30:36
  Speaker 2: Puss and it must be and it must be glittery.
• 3:30:42
  Speaker 3: I will hopefully remember to have somebody reach out to
• 3:30:47
  Speaker 3: you or shoot me a DM.
• 3:30:50
  Speaker 2: Either way slide into his dms. But the whole point
• 3:30:54
  Speaker 2: is we want to have a company. We want to
• 3:30:57
  Speaker 2: get where we can financially give money to the people
• 3:31:03
  Speaker 2: who helped us get there. Because, let me tell you,
• 3:31:06
  Speaker 2: JT and I did not hit one thousand and forty
• 3:31:08
  Speaker 2: eight subscribers by ourself. It wasn't me and it is
• 3:31:13
  Speaker 2: not because either one of us is cute. JT's funny.
• 3:31:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sarcastic. We drink wine and when we're in Denver,
• 3:31:22
  Speaker 2: I take gummies and I make it to as out
• 3:31:25
  Speaker 2: of myself or I sing a song that's not been
• 3:31:29
  Speaker 2: practiced and I'm wearing my cute little pink cowboy hat.
• 3:31:31
  Speaker 2: We are not what is making this this this Oh
• 3:31:37
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, the jazzled. No, it was sparkle Puss
• 3:31:41
  Speaker 2: and rim Puss.
• 3:31:45
  Speaker 3: Not part of the thousand membern thousand sub party. We
• 3:31:52
  Speaker 3: might be. It's all about you, guys. Yeah, we might
• 3:31:55
  Speaker 3: be the places on the screen exactly, but we are
• 3:31:58
  Speaker 3: not the power behind the channel.
• 3:32:00
  Speaker 2: We are not and I am perfec Well, we were
• 3:32:04
  Speaker 2: doing this for three years before now, and we.
• 3:32:08
  Speaker 3: Didn't get so far, and we didn't get in fat.
• 3:32:14
  Speaker 3: But it drives me nuts when people who are on
• 3:32:22
  Speaker 3: screen do not recognize the people off screen. It drives
• 3:32:28
  Speaker 3: me crazy. When people on screen refuse to admit that
• 3:32:34
  Speaker 3: it's not just them, It just drives me crazy.
• 3:32:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, guys, I just popped this up fore yu. If
• 3:32:44
  Speaker 2: y'all do not know this, Terry is a discord nightmare.
• 3:32:49
  Speaker 2: But I'm trying. Oh, Sammy, I used to listen to
• 3:32:53
  Speaker 2: that song every night when I went to bed. Let
• 3:32:56
  Speaker 2: go Ryans don't go.
• 3:33:00
  Speaker 3: That yeah that one? Uh?
• 3:33:06
  Speaker 2: I heard wh talking in the background. Okay, I don't
• 3:33:09
  Speaker 2: know how to see. I can't even turn those make
• 3:33:11
  Speaker 2: that thing away but never And I will tell you
• 3:33:18
  Speaker 2: that I have reached out to some of my old
• 3:33:22
  Speaker 2: recruiting team in the Philippines and asked them to come
• 3:33:26
  Speaker 2: and join the discord and ask them to maybe help
• 3:33:30
  Speaker 2: us with some of the stuff. They are amazing and
• 3:33:36
  Speaker 2: like I've always told them, the only reason I ever
• 3:33:39
  Speaker 2: became successful and moved up from being a manager to
• 3:33:42
  Speaker 2: a director is because of them. It wasn't me, it
• 3:33:46
  Speaker 2: was their talent.
• 3:33:49
  Speaker 3: This is this we gotta we gotta end this soon.
• 3:33:52
  Speaker 3: I I work really well together because we empower and
• 3:33:56
  Speaker 3: we respect the people that are there helping us out.
• 3:34:00
  Speaker 3: That is everything, And it's so important. I cannot tell
• 3:34:05
  Speaker 3: you enough how important that is. It's just the minute
• 3:34:11
  Speaker 3: that you stop paying attention to the people who have
• 3:34:15
  Speaker 3: helped you get you to where you are is the
• 3:34:17
  Speaker 3: minute in which everything falls apart.
• 3:34:21
  Speaker 2: That's when you become irrelevant in my opinion.
• 3:34:25
  Speaker 3: Agreed, one hundred percent agreed. And and and I just
• 3:34:29
  Speaker 3: I want you to know that if you are interested
• 3:34:31
  Speaker 3: in becoming a part of the team, we are very
• 3:34:34
  Speaker 3: much about empowering you, and we are very much about
• 3:34:36
  Speaker 3: appreciating you. And I hope that our team feels that.
• 3:34:40
  Speaker 3: And if you don't, please please come to me and
• 3:34:43
  Speaker 3: let me know, because I will fix it.
• 3:34:45
  Speaker 2: I mean. And that's the thing I want to tell you, guys.
• 3:34:49
  Speaker 2: And I tell my teams in my day life that
• 3:34:53
  Speaker 2: when I have my meetings with them, I give them
• 3:34:56
  Speaker 2: the form and they're like, what is this? I ask them,
• 3:34:59
  Speaker 2: tell me what you like that I do, what you
• 3:35:02
  Speaker 2: don't like that I do, and what do you wish
• 3:35:04
  Speaker 2: I did more of? Because guess what, I'm not having
• 3:35:07
  Speaker 2: a meeting to tell you what you did wrong. I
• 3:35:10
  Speaker 2: need you to tell me what I need to do
• 3:35:13
  Speaker 2: to be better for you. I have employees that I
• 3:35:19
  Speaker 2: worked with many many years ago that I still keep
• 3:35:22
  Speaker 2: in touch with, and they are some of my best friends,
• 3:35:25
  Speaker 2: and that is what is most important to me. We
• 3:35:29
  Speaker 2: just all happen to like true crime, some of us
• 3:35:32
  Speaker 2: more than others, and we like the dark shit.
• 3:35:37
  Speaker 3: We do.
• 3:35:38
  Speaker 2: And if you like the color pink, it's even better.
• 3:35:43
  Speaker 2: It's even better in jt our. Next thing, when we
• 3:35:47
  Speaker 2: hit two thousand subscribers, I want to have maybe just
• 3:35:54
  Speaker 2: an episode we won't do at a party. I want
• 3:35:57
  Speaker 2: to dress you in all pink.
• 3:35:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, sounds good.
• 3:36:02
  Speaker 2: Head to two.
• 3:36:03
  Speaker 3: I mean I'm up for it, so I mean make
• 3:36:07
  Speaker 3: it span next.
• 3:36:10
  Speaker 2: I guess spanned X. Okay, I was thinking body paint,
• 3:36:12
  Speaker 2: latex paint pink.
• 3:36:15
  Speaker 3: Oh body, Well, it better be warm in the room.
• 3:36:20
  Speaker 3: I have some demands, so of course you did. On
• 3:36:26
  Speaker 3: that note.
• 3:36:28
  Speaker 2: That is a perfect place to end. Now, the only
• 3:36:31
  Speaker 2: real quick Now we just need to get Rudy to
• 3:36:33
  Speaker 2: agree to let us do that to him, the two
• 3:36:35
  Speaker 2: of us.
• 3:36:36
  Speaker 3: That will never happen. Oh my gosh, y'all listen, yes,
• 3:36:47
  Speaker 3: thank you so much, thanks for sticking around, Thanks for
• 3:36:49
  Speaker 3: being here, Thanks for it's three and a half a
• 3:36:51
  Speaker 3: half hours. Good god, it's like an old episode that
• 3:36:54
  Speaker 3: we used to have.
• 3:36:55
  Speaker 2: Oh we told just making sure we did this. We
• 3:36:57
  Speaker 2: covered Javier, we covered the end of the year. We
• 3:37:01
  Speaker 2: have some we have another interview. I can't remember. We
• 3:37:06
  Speaker 2: have another interview coming up. I think it's in January.
• 3:37:08
  Speaker 2: I think it got moved to January.
• 3:37:11
  Speaker 3: We'll post it on the community page.
• 3:37:14
  Speaker 2: See, we need social media help. We need social media help.
• 3:37:18
  Speaker 2: So if anybody loves social media, we would love for
• 3:37:23
  Speaker 2: you guys to help with that. Thank you guys.
• 3:37:27
  Speaker 3: Awesome. All right, Well, listen as I typically say, take
• 3:37:33
  Speaker 3: care of yourself, your friends, your family, and your community
• 3:37:36
  Speaker 3: now more than ever. Don't let anybody doll your sparkle
• 3:37:40
  Speaker 3: and shine. Sign on you crazy diamonds, high on.
• 3:37:47
  Speaker 2: And as always I'm the dark one. Stay safe, watch
• 3:37:51
  Speaker 2: out for crime because it's everywhere around you, and be
• 3:37:55
  Speaker 2: a whyo. Enjoy your wine time.
• 3:37:58
  Speaker 3: Bye everybody, we will see you. I'll see you on
• 3:38:01
  Speaker 3: Sunday at eight o'clock for a night court. Bye everybody,