Latest / If I'm Being Honest: Straight Talk About Book Publishing & Promotion / From Self-Publishing To Bookstore Shelves with Heather Hendrie

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From Self-Publishing To Bookstore Shelves with Heather Hendrie · If I'm Being Honest: Straight Talk About Book Publishing & Promotion

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, everybody.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are going to be talking about how you can build a successful author career from scratch.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we've got a great guest for you here today.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Her name is Heather Hendry.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: She's a Canadian-based clinical counselor, and she's the author of the award-winning series Awfully Hilarious.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm very excited to have her on the show today.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Heather.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: And just in case you didn't know, you're listening to uh or watching, depending on where you are.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is if I'm being honest, straight talk about book publishing and promotion.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Joel Pitney, I'm the host.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, we like to have conversations like with this with writers who figured out um some tricks of the trade so that everybody else can uh learn from their experience.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So Heather, welcome.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm all about the honest truth.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Canadians, right?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Canadians are very truthful people, is that true?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I'm not sure that that's the first thing that is said.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that truth matters more now than ever, but I think we're we're known as being a very polite people that doesn't always align with the truth.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I I do greatly value the truth and honesty.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: So um I first met Heather.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: She she came and worked with my company, launched my book to do a marketing campaign for her first book.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, which was called Awfully Hilarious, which is the kind of the initial one.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I I loved the book.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I loved working with you.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I thought it was a really cool concept.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was a successful uh launch.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought maybe what I want to talk a little bit about today is you know, your author journey, how you how you started, and then where you've gotten to, because um, from what I understand, you've you've done the rare jump from self-publishing to to traditional or trade publishing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, having your first two books in the series self-published and then the the last book taken on by an actual publisher.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um my author journey really started probably when I was about five and first holding a crayon in my hand.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've always known I needed to write a book.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've I wanted to write a book, but I I sort of felt have felt compelled since I was very small.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so this this first book that we worked on together, Joel, happened when I was in the middle of doing something else completely, as so often happens.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was working on my memoir.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh quite a challenging memoir about my experience with premenstrual dysphoric disorder.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I now have a book deal with Caitlin Press, and I'm working on that book.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Where the F is My Red Tent.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: But a few years ago, I was in the midst of that feeling pretty alone and isolated with that book.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh as things do, I went on a bad date, reached out to a friend who had also just been on a bad date, and she said the thing that led to this whole project.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: She said, Heather, we could write a book.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so we did.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And from that, we gathered a whole bunch of our friends and acquaintances, terrible dating stories.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: We put them into a book, and then go figure we connect with you, uh, launch my book, became a bestseller.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It also won the Canadian Book Club Awards in the year it was published.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um the we've gone from there, we recognized, oh wow, there's an appetite for these honest, painful, true, and often hilarious stories.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, tragedy plus time equals comedy.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's kind of what we've niched into here.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so one thing I noticed when you and I first talked, you you had this quality that made me think that you were gonna be successful, um, which is you seem to be very in command of your own marketing, that you you were willing to go out there and try a lot of things, experiment, um, but you weren't hoping to just come to a company like mine and say, hey, here's some money, make sure my book's successful, and I'm gonna sit, I'm gonna kick back.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: You seem to be very proactive.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, I think that's one way of saying it, absolutely, and it would translate as that.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: What it really is is I'm just very, very passionate about the people on the pages and the stories in these books.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there's I think that they're really important for the world in that they're they're poignant truth-telling, which we need more now than ever.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what compelled me to get creative and engage the writers and you know, with all the books now, there's it's not just me, there are almost a hundred writers and folks in our community now who help get the books out into libraries and little free libraries.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess another way of looking at marketing would simply be the passion of our beliefs and trying to um make that information accessible to others.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I I have really firmly believed in that from the beginning.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so like what are some of the things you've done along the way from a marketing standpoint that you feel have been effective?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's been uh definitely a process of trial and error, and there have been a lot of things that I've tried that have cost me a lot of money and really not gone anywhere.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that has worked best has always been about grassroots, guerrilla marketing, community buildings.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we wrap them in brown paper.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Paris and Lindsay and I, the originals that came up with this first book, wrap them in brown paper and put them in little free libraries with handwritten notes saying, no.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: You mean like those little free library, like those little boxes you see on the sidewalk?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at the end of the street, you know, and just saying things like if you're dating and disillusioned, you're not the only one.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Love the tinderellas, like we're here too.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that's been one of the really fun things.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, whenever I go on a road trip around the country, I'm dropping them off in libraries because, again, our intent is to make them accessible.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a chance to speak on a number of podcasts about various topics discussed in the book, such as um dating, of course, but infertility, periods, menstruation, menopause.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're starting basically, maybe this exists, I've never heard of it, but a whole approach to writing called, I'm calling it cringe lit, where we're saying, not to say.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so things like that where we're just and you know, donating books and giving them to f for free to people who we think could really benefit from them.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then of course, there have been other marketing strategies too.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what first led me to you, Joel and your organization was I learned that there was a way to run an Amazon bestseller campaign.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh, if we can use those algorithms to bring more attention to conversation, especially um I'm loving this.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've been telling all my friends, family, family maybe aren't loving hearing this so much, but over the last week I've been saying, I'm number one in sex.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because last week our latest book, Pillow Talk, hit um number one across a number of its categories on Amazon, but notably in sex, which was thrilling to see our book up there with my heroes like Esther Perel and um M.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Nagoski and Come As You Are, Mating in Captivity.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So some really exciting things like that have been some of the um more strategic tactics I've used.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um good reads giveaways, which I've learned a lot about along the way.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would, I would use those very strategically and differently going forward than I have in the past.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, all sorts of beautiful networks, like when we when friends and um readers have been moved by these books, wherever possible we invite them to write a review, whether it's on Story Graph, the off Amazon um approach to um to tracking and reviewing your reading, or maybe it's good reads, maybe it's Amazon, or maybe they're posting reviews and sharing with their community, something that feels important to them.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been a lot of that, a lot of very direct conversation with readers that we've engaged with.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's very cool.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's it seems like one of the big components is giving the book away, which the longer I've been doing this, the more convinced I've been that that's one of the keys to success, especially when you're starting out.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, someone told me recently, someone else I interviewed for the podcast, he's like, Look, uh, the only way a book's gonna succeed is if every book that you that someone every reader generates two more sales for you.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's interesting.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's gotta be good enough to get someone talking about it.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: And your books obviously do.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're fun, interesting, very relatable stories that people are gonna want to share.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then one of the best ways to get readers to start talking about your book and selling it for you is to just give it away, especially if you're starting out, you know.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I know we did digital giveaways for you, but it sounds like you're actually literally going and physically giving it to people in libraries and little libraries.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, I love, of course, as you know, Joel, but I'll stick speak to this for anyone watching or listening, um, with our first book and actually Pillow Talk too.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: We launched them on Valentine's Day because what a difficult day for so many people, especially if you're single.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: We thought, okay, let's give this away.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: As if if you're dating in disillusioned and feeling alone on this Hallmark day, here's here's someone saying, Hey, it it can get easier, or wow, I've been there too, and thank goodness you didn't have this horrible experience.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it's certainly giving things away.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I I would speak to something you just said there.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was told this a lot along the way, and it's just so true.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, write a really good book.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the most important thing, is like, it's gotta be a really good book.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say that I think our books are getting better and better as we go.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and again, no shade to the earlier books, but we're learning more and more how to take a trauma-informed lens towards editing and really curate the stories in such a way that they're um presenting a really helpful message.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's I think one of the reasons that it's been really valuable to work with a trade publisher on this most recent one, the first two self-published.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then this third, we hired in, we had a freelance editor who's amazing for these first two, Megan Power that we hired.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then we hired in a new editor for this third book and worked with a trade publisher.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the pieces are a little bit more polished.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's a slightly different format.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like you'll see the size is different.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing really cool that our trade publisher, Tidewater Press, did with these.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you can see that they're different size, if you're looking for it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so if you're listening, you can't see sure.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: She's holding up a couple books and showing the differences, but if you're watching, you can see.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the most recent is smaller because the trade publisher we're working with has the brilliance to know that this is the exact most affordable mailing size in Canada.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So this fits exactly into the envelopes and and so that considers costs.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So when I first began this project, I really have just been following a passion, which is I've been doing all along, but I had no idea about the costs that might be involved.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought you write a book, it's a bestseller, that's great, and everyone involved gets paid, et cetera.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's unfortunately I'm learning that's just not how it works.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So working with a trade publisher like Tidewater Press and even on the minutiae, things like the exact size of the book, such that it fits um Canadian postage rules for the cheapest mailing, it's been important.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so tell me a little bit about this leap from self-publishing to traditional publishing or trade publishing, right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people, a lot of people I talk to hear about, hey, this is possible.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it, you know, it's it's rare, but it does happen, right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So how did that work for you?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Did you did uh did you say, okay, now that we've got these two books under our belt, we've got enough readers, we've got enough ground, so we're gonna go pitch it to a traditional publisher?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Did they come after you because they saw your momentum?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: What how did it all Yeah?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's really interesting.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say I've always wanted, I've always had the goal of trade publishing for the simple reason that the sorts of things I'm writing, I believe deserve a really wide audience.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always, I've always been trying to write stories that are speak to some universal pain point or connection point of for us as humans.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always been my desire to have them as widely available in the world as possible.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we do know that in general, trade publishing is a quicker, easier route to make that happen.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not true for everyone.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like there might there's the Rupee Cores out there and her beautiful books of poetry, you know, that she's self-published and has reached so many hearts and hands.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in general, that's a bit harder to do with self-publishing.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd always hoped for that.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've attended a number of writers' festivals that I've found really informative and helpful and community-building.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one amazing thing about the Whistler Writers Festival, which I've attended a number of times, it's fantastic, is you have an opportunity to pitch to publishers.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so over the years I've been pitching my memoir to publishers.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was also considering pitching the awfully hilarious the next in the series to publishers.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't actually end up doing that, but a connection that I made through a workshop I went to at the Whistle Writers Festival is a woman who works with Tidewater Press, and she approached me a few months later saying, Hey, I've I've got an idea for you.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a way we could maybe make this work together.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So in fact, she she had approached me.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I will say though, something I learned along the way is um self-publishing is not necessarily a way in the door to trade publishing.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, unfortunately, a lot of the editors and agents I've been in connection with have suggested that it's possible you might shoot yourself in the foot.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And by self-publishing something, particularly if it's not well edited or polished, might actually work against you if it were to be a good idea.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: If that's if your goal is trade publishing, right.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I I will I just want to name that by saying I think I got very, very lucky in this case, but I I have to tell you how thrilled I am that the 18 writers who contributed to this are all now considered professional writers because they're paid and they're published with a trade publisher here in Canada.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's been a very big deal.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: That also allows them access to things like the Writers Union of Canada.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um all of none of which is really as readily available following the self-published route.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I'm in a unique position in that I've got to experience both sides of it, and they're the pluses and minuses to both, that's for sure.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you want all the agency to do it all yourself, to keep all the money, you definitely got to self-publish.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, let's talk pros and cons.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be great.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now that you and I know you're just, you know, you've just launched Pillow Talk, which everybody should go get a copy of.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, it's it's juicy, Joel.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is like, I bet.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got the audiobook out, so if I I'm highly recommending if anyone just needs an afternoon at home in bed with something really saucy, it's a good way to get it.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so yeah, let's talk.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Let you know, so far, um, from your reflections on, you know, this third book with Tidewater Press and then the first two books, self-publishing, what are some of the pros and cons between the two?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, and I know you know a lot about this too, having worked with so many writers taking various routes, but um, with self-publishing, the main thing, of course, is you do everything yourself.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then with trade publishing, one of the biggest advantages is um the credibility of the polished product, but the distribution network.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is something that I just was not able to access with the first two self-published books.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: The only way I've been able to get them into stores was to drive from store to store and bring them and ask if the lovely independent bookkeepers would keep them there on consignment for me, many of whom did.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you can only drive so many miles on your vehicle, whereas Tidewater Press has distribution networks across the entire country.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So they're the infrastructure that exists was significantly more.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I thought there would be more.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I had been a bit naive going into the trade publishing world thinking, oh, there'll be a publicist and a marketing department.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And really, uh Tidewater Press is an amazing press, but it's two people, and they of course don't have a publicist or a marketing department.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something um I was a bit of a rude awakening for me, is that I've done as much or more work, to be honest, with this than I have with the previous two when it comes to marketing and um gathering the contributors together.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But the distribution network um has been invaluable.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: But that that's not to say that people will then buy the book, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: The books will then be in stores, but then there's there's that whole step that then has to happen of people getting excited about it and buying it rather than just mailing it back to the publisher.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't understand any of that when I first got into this, that publishing is an assignment industry.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't sell, they all get sent back to the publisher and the publisher eats the cost.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a risk.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then they're and they're taking, you know, in traditional, they're taking the risk for you.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um in terms of this distribution, right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, distribution means a lot of things, right?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Some people distribution can be a word that basically means the book is available on all these different channels, right?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: From what I'm hearing you say, distribution, you're talking about active distribution where the publisher is actively pushing your book out, pitching your book, selling your book to different booksellers around.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So of course, these two books, um, the first two in the Awfully Hilarious series were made available through Ingram Spark, and then they're available print on demand internationally in almost every place.
• 17:04
  unknown: Right.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: What was really hard was to get physical copies into bookstores.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We had some success getting a few into indigos in Canada, but that that was very limited and just based on my my legwork.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: This, what I'm talking about distribution, is that Tidewater Press is working with uh University of Toronto Press, and and then they're also they have salespeople making sure that bookstores bring in copies of the book and get the books on the shelves.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'm talking about is the distribution of the physical books and giving them a chance to display on shelf in the hopes that they buy.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't I don't know how Tidewater works, but my experience working with some smaller publishers, and it sounds like Tidewater is quite small, is that they're often part of larger conglomerates that sort of pool their resources.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of them having a sales agent that's selling to bookstores, they work with sales agents who represent many small publishers.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know if do you know how they're set up?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be a conversation to have with Tidewater.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on my guess is that's probably how they're working.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that uh the other publisher I'm working with on my memoir also works with University of Toronto Press for distribution.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I can tell you the ins and outs of that.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: But that sounds familiar.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds right.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so okay, so uh so in turn like are your books in bookstores everywhere now, or how does that how does that work for you?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Pillow talk is in bookstores everywhere.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So you could, you know, I I guess it's focused primarily in Canada, but what about the United States?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've got them in the US too.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was really important to us because we've got contributors across the world and they're wanting to see the books on shelves bookshelves in their their communities.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's uh Canada, of course, has been our main market because the project started here, but it's gone beyond that for sure.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so you talked about, you know, that's kind of the one of the major pros of working with a traditional or a trade publisher is the uh distribution.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: What have been some things that were a little bit more difficult um working with a traditional publisher after having done self-publishing?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's I that was a challenge in that I think many people who are traditionally published maybe haven't done the whole self-publishing route before.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So because I had done this all myself, in some ways, I may as well just out myself and say it was like maybe a bit hard to let go of the reins because as this was coming along, I thought this could be an Amazon bestseller, which we had done with the previous two books.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks to what I learned with you, Joel, I launched my book.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought we got to do that for this one.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there was certainly resistance on the end of the publisher because that's not something that they had really pushed for in past.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: That was more like a self-publishing technique.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a there's differences there, right, in terms of the techniques with self-publishing and trade publishing.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that with the first two books, it was it's all on my timeline.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's all I had full agency over what stories get included, how the editorial process, et cetera, et cetera.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and with the trade publishing, that's not how it works, right?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's somebody else at the helm of that.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it was a collaborative process.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and for the most part, we really agreed on the editorial decisions, et cetera.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it was different working with the team than just doing it on your own.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's just it's just a different experience.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's good.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's it's interesting.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: I talked to a lot of people who have heard that working with a traditional publisher means you give up creative control, and everyone gets really worried about that.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: But in my experience, the books that I've ghostwritten for traditional publishers, I've worked with plenty of them, and I have almost never had experiences where the traditional publishers' input made things worse.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, I that's why I always tell everybody I sometimes, you know, you have to let go of some things, maybe you have to kind of swallow your pride a little bit or maybe kill your darlings, as they say in writing.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: But totally.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's so the industry.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's there's a you know, they're professionals.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, there's a reason that they're doing what they're doing.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's expertise there, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so grateful to receive that expertise.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm saying this is like the most polished of the books we've done by any by a long shot.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and I will say also, the team at Tidewater Press was really open to our input and feedback.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we, it was collaps the cover, it was collaborative.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: They of course have a great designer, but she was really open and it was a collaborative process, similar with the stories, the story order, all of it was it was very collaborative.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm very, very happy to release agency.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always very happy to work with a team to make the books better.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that for sure happened as part of this process.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, I was very relieved to have others helping make this book a success.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's uh it's pretty daunting to do it all on your own.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And not to mention um extremely costly.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really didn't know as I was getting into this how I just kept putting money into it because I was I'm such a firm believer in the messages in these books.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, with the traditional publishing route, that's a little bit different.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're, as you mentioned earlier, they're taking, they would be receiving a large chunk of the reward if there's a reward, but they're also taking the risk.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas with with this, this was all my personal money and it was a lot of money.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's a it's amazing.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I run a self-publishing company where people pay my company to help publish their books, right?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I always I always say, hey, if you can get a traditional publisher to do this for you, you can save all that money.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And people hear, oh, well, they're gonna take 90% of the profits.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that may be true, but they're gonna pay for everything up front.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's and as you said, that can get very significant.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I will say that did not happen with this one.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh that seems to me the ideal world and how it should go with traditional publishing.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: That didn't happen here.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had to pay our editor.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I st I have still had to put quite a bit of money and a lot of sweat sweat equity into this project.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you had to pay the editorial, but everything else was on them.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um except for marketing, not marketing.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm still working a lot harder than I I thought I would be working.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think this was me coming into this world a little bit naive, thinking, um, once you got a book deal, you got it made.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: You just sit back in your hammock and drink your lemonade and read this beautiful book you've made.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um it's not like that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what I wish someone had told me, well, I don't know if I wish I'd known this, um, because it's never the why.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you want to make a lot of money, don't go out and write a book.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, do whatever other thing you know that makes a lot of money.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: That can't be the why.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I but my experience has been that books do not make money, but in a case like mine, they can hopefully make change, and that's what I'm hoping to do with them.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so um maybe what might be kind of cool, let's what advice, you know, kind of parting advice for people to people who are like Heather Hendry back in 2021, 2022, just thinking about starting publishing their first book and starting this venture.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: What what advice do you have for for for those folks?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, well, do it.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got a book in you, it's really important to write it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I could not be more grateful for all of this experience.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is also this has been extraordinarily supportive to me in the process of um my writing my memoir.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd also say if you're interested in the awfully hilarious idea, like follow along with our newsletter list because there will be more.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so start by submitting some of your stories to us.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And now that we're trade published, you maybe you get a chance to get a writing credit and become a professional writer, which helps give give you a bit of a springboard to your own next project.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So starting small and building up, like whether it's publishing in magazines or some, you know, having a jar of maybe you want to, it's 2026, maybe you want to take 26, not 26 rejections, but 26 submissions this year to different known magazines, et cetera.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you can get some credit behind your name.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, keep going and do it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as the pathway of like which do you choose, self-publishing, traditional publishing, I think again, what it all comes back to is is like why you're writing the book in the first place, what's the book about, and making it a really, really good book.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh that's so much more important, I think, than the the conversations can come later about the way that you're going to bring it into the world.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm really grateful for that having had experience on it in a number of different ways.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, going forward, I think my next step with what I've learned so far is where I'm at now with it a number of years in and with now these the four, I guess, and um four books and a fifth on the way, is I would my next step would be to ideally see if I could work with a literary agent for the next projects.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that that's that's wonderful, Heather.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, awesome, you know, congratulations on your success.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's cool to see, it's cool to see you, you know, evolve and grow in this way.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, where can people learn more about you and your and your books?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awfully hilarious.com.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the books are in all the places.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want to help join us in our mission, it would be requesting them into your library.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you read a copy and then leave it for the next person, pay it forward in a little free library somewhere of their uh or maybe buy 10 copies.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, one for yourself and then distribute them in all the small libraries in your town.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is why he's the marketing guy.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, Joel.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you want to go with launch my book.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, buy 10 copies, share them around.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the audiobooks are available on Audible Spotify in all the places.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the really cool thing I didn't mention, but we got a Canada Council for the Arts grant to record audiobooks in the voices of all the narrators.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the audiobooks are read in the voices of the person who submitted the story, and that's really unique and cool.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where people can find us.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you're interested, reach out.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's not easy publishing a book, and there's a whole community of folks out there to help you.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, very cool, Joel, to circle back with you all after our really fun big bestseller win of a few years ago.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I you know, we played a small part in kind of kicking kicking things off for you.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's great.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Glad to be part of it.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, everyone, there's gonna be links to all Heather's resources.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: We'll put it in the you know, in the bio in the in the comments and all the different places.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, also, if you enjoyed this episode and you want to hear more content like this, um, you can subscribe to our show on any channel that you're listening or watching to it on.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for joining us today.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And best of mine.