Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / Joachim Kroll - The Ruhr Cannibal - Part 2

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Joachim Kroll - The Ruhr Cannibal - Part 2 · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Jaquim Kroll was a German serial killer who operated over
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the course of twenty one years before being caught, and
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in our last episode of this show, we began telling
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: that story, and today we'll be carrying it on with
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: part two. So be sure to listen to part one
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: before enjoying this episode. But if you're ready, well then
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: let's begin.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: The following podcast and material intended for a mature audience.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised. I feel like I'm still half asleep.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Are you you need caffeine?
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Then? I know? I am drinking green tea, which is
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: supposed to be caffeinated, but it doesn't really do much
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: for me.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: You need to drink coffee. Nicole's not a coffee person,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: and you I need to get you into coffee, especially
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: if I want to roast coffee. Way.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the goal that Ben has.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is cool. I want to have this little
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: artist and roaster. Maybe have like a farm stand or
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: go to Harber's markets. You know, yes, it would be
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: so fun. Just roast mailn coffee.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I'm all about the farmer stand life all about it,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: There's a few that are not far from where we live,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and we hit them up frequently. Nicole came home with
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: some muffins the other day. You were obsessed, so obsessed.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Apparently blueberry muffins are Ben's favorite muffin.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which you just learned, and I'm surprised by that.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: But well, we don't actually eat muffins very often, so
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I just but if I get a muffin, it's blueberry, Like.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I've ever made you blueberry muffins?
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Have I? Yeah? You have?
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, when I used to bake and be fun and cool.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you used to it, you do too. You
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: may have banana bread not long ago. But I think
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: we should probably not talk too much prior to this
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: episode starting because it is a part two.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: We should probably two, and everyone's auntsy exactly.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: We should probably dive into the story sooner than later,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: which means I should probably think. Are Patreons who signed
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: up this week, So shout out and thank you to
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Andrea JV, Sarah Dell, and Candice who all signed up
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: over on Patreon, and not only did they sign up
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, but they are getting the new revamped Patreon experience.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we need to dive into that a
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: little bit more.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: We do, We definitely do. But there's a lot over there.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: You should check it out, we'll say. For that's the
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Coles notes, that's the cold check it out. That's Nicole's notes.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Like what I did there, it's pretty good.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I definitely need to recap because I can't
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: remember this effort to save my life.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Really you can't. You can't remember him at all. Okay,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Well I kind of.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Just like blocked it out. I think over the weekend.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'll give you a bit of a recap.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: We'll set you up and we'll be good to go.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: So what we did we covered Jachim Kroll and his
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: youth and his early years, and by nineteen seventy he
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: had already spent fifteen years killing across Western Germany, while
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: somehow still remaining completely unknown to police. His victims ranged
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: from young children to adults, and the crime stretched across
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: multiple different cities and with that, jurisdictions now, because the
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: murders occurred in different communities and were investigated by different
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: police departments, detectives repeatedly failed to recognize that they were
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: dealing with a single offender. Instead, each case was treated
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: largely as its own mystery, allowing Jakim to move from
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: victim to victim without attracting significant attention. Many of his
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: victims were sexually assaulted, there was flesh torn from the remains,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: and they were dumped off in wooded areas alike and found,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and no one really knows who was attributed to them.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Along the way, investigators pursued numerous suspects. Some men were
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: arrested and jailed for crimes that they did not commit.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Others found themselves living under a cloud of suspicion that
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: permanently damaged their reputations and personal lives, with some even
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: committing suicide as a result. By the time we reached
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, at least fourteen years have passed since the
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: murder of Ingard Strell, which was the first known victim
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: linked to Jakim. Now, despite multiple homicide investigations, a surviving witness,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: and a growing number of murdered women and children, police
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: were still no closer to identifying the man responsible. The
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: pattern remained hidden. The case remained unsolved, and Jaqim himself
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: had become increasingly confident that he could continue offending without
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: any consequences whatsoever, And unfortunately the story was still not
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: done there. This fucker, Hey, this fucker, he's coming back
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: to you any it is?
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember it being like such an age strange
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: gap too. Yes, he didn't really discriminate there, which is
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: quite odd, I believe, if.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I recall correctly, his youngest victim is four and his
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: oldest is sixty.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, Okay, Well, let's carry on here
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: and about this dude and how he hopefully it ends up.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know, rotting somewhere.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: I really thought you were going to call him a
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: douche canoe for a second there, but you called him
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: a dude, and I was a little bit disappointed, and.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Not live I disappointed you.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's rewind that and then say it again. So
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: let's go ahead and say, let's say, douche canoe do it.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I can't even remember what the hell I said this dude, Yes,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: douche canoe.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Just say, let's learn about this douche cano. Ok You're
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: totally ruining the moment here.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, Let's learn about this douche canoo.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Let's learn about this douche canoe. Let's do it. God.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: That was like pulling teeth. Okay. Now. By the early
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Jaquim Kroll had become a familiar figure in
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: the Disburg neighborhood where he now lived. After years of
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: moving between jobs and communities throughout the rural region, he
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: had settled into a routine that appeared completely ordinary from
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: the outside. He still worked a variety of jobs, including
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: labor and maintenance positions and jobs associated with major industrial
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: employers such as Men's Men and Thides. Now, like thousands
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: of other working class residents, his day revolved around work,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: public transportation, shopping, and the routines of every day life
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: things we were all familiar with. Nothing about those routines
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: attracted any sort of outside attention to neighbors. He seemed quiet, shy,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and somewhat awkward. He was not particularly social, and he
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: rarely stood out in a crowd. People generally knew him
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: as someone who was harmless, a harmless bachelor, if you will,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: someone who kept largely to himself. If anything, Many residents
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: viewed him with a degree of sympathy, even he was
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: small in stature, struggled socially, and reportedly suffered from various
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: health issues that became more noticeable as he was growing older.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Perhaps the most unsettling aspect of this period, in hindsight,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: was his relationship though with the local children. See many
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: neighborhood children knew him personally. He sometimes gave them candy,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: he allowed them to see toys and dolls that he
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: kept in his apartment, and generally he presented himself as
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: a friendly adult presence, someone in the neighborhood that was
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: not suspicious in any way, shape or form. In fact,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: over time, the youngsters in the area even began referring
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: to him by a nickname that reflected that familiarity, and
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: in hindsight, is quite creepy.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't trust people, Hey, you can't. You would
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: have no idea that he's actually this terrible person.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Well, do you want to guess what they called him
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: the nickname they had for him.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know, uncle something.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Uncle Yakim. All these neighborhood kids are just calling him
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: uncle like he's friendly, he's trustworthy, and yet he is
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: a serial pedophile and murderer.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, huh a monster among them?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, parents, neighbors, and local residents saw an eccentric
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: but harmless man, and no one had any reason to
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: suspect that the quiet laborer had been connected to a
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: series of murders stretching back to the mid nineteen fifties.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Now by this point, though, age was beginning to affect him.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Jachim was entering his forties. He wasn't super old or
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: anything by any means, but years of physical labor well,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: they'd taken a toll on his body. Various accounts mentioned
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: a noticeable limp and ongoing health problems. He was no
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: longer the young man who had committed his first known
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: murder after the death of his mother in the nineteen fifties,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty five, to be specific. Yet despite those
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: physical limitations, he had not stopped killing. In fact, some
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: evidence suggests that he was becoming more comfortable with operating
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: closer to home. Even after all, with years of success
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: not being caught, he had little reason to believe police
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: would ever identify him at all, and that confidence would
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: prove to be a mistake. On May eighth, nineteen seventy six,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: ten year old Karen topfer disappeared while walking to school
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: in Vorde. When she failed to arrive at school, concern
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: quickly escalated into a major search effort involving police volunteers
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: and local residents alike. Yet despite those efforts, investigators were
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: unable to find the answers that they needed. Now years later,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: after Jakim's arrest, he admitted responsibility for Karen's murder. He
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: confessed that he abducted, raped, and killed Karen. According to
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: his confession, he then dismembered her body and discarded the
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: remains in the Rhine River, where she was never recovered. Now,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: because the remains were never found, investigators were unable to
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: independently verify many of the details surrounding her death and
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: had to rely heavily on Jakim's admissions. At the time, though,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: the case simply joined the growing list of unsolved murders
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: and crimes, and by the summer of nineteen seventy six,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Jokim was forty three years old. Age and declining health
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: were beginning to affect him more and more, but the
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: confidence it was still there. See, many of his earlier
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: crimes had occurred in different towns and different cities, throughout
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: the rural region. But by nineteen seventy six, however, his
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: world had become much smaller. The neighborhoods where he had
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: spent his time, worked and socialized were the same neighborhoods
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: where local children recognized him as Uncle Jokim, and the
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: distance that had once separated his crimes from his daily
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: life was disappearing. So within weeks of Karen's murder, another
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: child would vanish too. This time the victim was only
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: four years old. His youngest victim, her name was Marian.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: On July third, nineteen seventy six, four year old Marian Ketter,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: disappeared in Dusburg for her family. The disappearance was immediately alarming.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: A child of her age could not simply vanish without explanation,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: and police responded accordingly. Officers began searching the neighbourhood, interviewing
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: residents and conducting door to door inquiries in an effort
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: to determine whether the little girl had gone and who
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: might have seen her. At first, the investigation appeared similar
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to countless other missing children cases. Detectives spoke with neighbours,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: they collected statements and attempted to establish a timeline of
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Marian's final movements. The hope was that someone had seen
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: her wandering nearby or could provide information that would quickly
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: bring the search to a safe conclusion. Instead, however, investigators
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: received a tip that would change the entire direction of
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the case see. One of the residents in Jaquim's apartment
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: building was a man named Oscar Mueller. During conversations with
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: the police, Oscar mentioned an ongoing plumbing problem in the
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: building see A shared drainage pipe from a bathroom on
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: the third floor had become blocked, creating issues for several tenants.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Now on its own, that complaint had nothing to do
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: with a missing child investigation at all. In fact, you'd
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: think why was it even brought up. But what caught
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: investigator's attention was a remark Yakim had allegedly made about
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the blockage. According to Oscar, Jakim had said not to
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: use the bathroom because it was clogged with quote guts. Now,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: under ordinary circumstances, the comment might have been dismissed as
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: a very crude humor or attempt at humor, or an
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: odd statement or something along those lines. But in the
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: context of an active missing child investigation. It was disturbing
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: enough to warrant further investigation, so police decided to search
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Yal Kim's apartment, and what they found immediately transformed the case.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Inside the residents, investigators encountered a scene unlike anything they expected.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: First off, the blocked plumbing had drawn the attention to
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: his apartment and it was blocked with human organs, organs
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: that had become lodged in the building's waste pipe and
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: residents had complained about the blockage for the past few days,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: and when plumbers examined the system, they made the gruesome discovery.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: It seemed that the internal organs belonged to a child
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: and had been forced into a drainage system, preventing the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: pipes from functioning properly. And his officers expanded the search
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: in the apartment, they found additional remains belonging to Mary
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: and Ketter throughout his home.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Gosh, this guy is just frickin' mess.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Top pay portions of the four year old's body had
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: been stored in the fridge and the freezer. Investigators moved
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: carefully through each room, documenting every single item and collecting
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: evidence along the way, but one of the most shocking
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: discoveries was made in the kitchen. According to multiple accounts,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: officers found a pot sitting on the stove containing one
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: of Mary's hands being boiled alongside vegetables.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Holy shit.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: The condition and distribution of the remains left little doubt
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: that Marion had in fact been killed, dismembered, and partially
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: processed inside the residence for consumption.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Wow. I just can't comprehend like harming a four a
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: year old like in any way. So this is just
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it's beyond my comprehension.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I guess it takes a monster to do something like that. Yeah,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: it's oh, it gives my like, I don't like this word.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: It's a weird word, but it gives me the ick.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: It makes my skin roll.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how can he be doing this in his apartment?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: But then like as soon as he exits, he's like,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: uncle whatever.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Uncle yoakim?
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah? To everyone, right, that is just beyond messed.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: How fucked up is that? Now? For any of the
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: officers present, it was unlike any crime scene they had
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: encountered during their entire careers. Investigators quickly concluded that Marian
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: had been brought into the apartment she was then murdered
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: and dismembered. There By this stage, there was no realistic
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: possibility that she had simply disappeared or been taken elsewhere.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: They knew what happened. But what investigators did not yet
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: realize was that the discoveries made inside the apartment would
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: open the doors far beyond just Marian's murder. For years,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: police departments across Western Germany had struggled to explain a
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: series of unsolved killings involving women and children. Several victims
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: had been subject to rape, strangulation, post mortem mutilation and
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: their removal even of body tissue, and now standing inside
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Jaquim's apartment and examining the evidence before them, investigators were
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: unknowingly looking at the key that would unlock more than
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: two decades of unsolved murders. Within hours of the horrific discovery,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: the quiet Factory work known throughout the neighborhood as Uncle Yalkim,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: would become the central figure in one of the largest
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: serial murder investigations in post war German history. Now he was,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of course, arrested immediately upon the discovery in July of
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, and as questioning began, investigators expected to
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: focus on the events surrounding Marion's death. However, as the
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: questioning began, investigators noticed that Yakim was unusually willing to talk.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Rather than denying everything or refusing to cooperate or anything
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: along those lines, he answered questions openly. He seemed prepared
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: to discuss events from years earlier. Even now, this behavior
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: surprise detectives. Most suspects and serious homicide investigations attempt to
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: distance themselves from the crime. But Yakim, on the other hand,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: while often he tried to do the opposite, like he
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: was excited, maybe even to talk about the things he
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: had done over all these years. Now, one of the
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: key investigators assigned to the case was Detective Burnt Yaggers.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Throughout a series of interviews, Yaggers and his colleagues gradually
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: encouraged Jachim to discuss his past in greater detail, and
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: as the conversations continued, references began appearing that had nothing
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: to do with Mary and Ketterer at all. Yaqim mentioned places, dates,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: and names connected to murders that had remained unsolved for years.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: At first, investigators approached those statements very cautiously, though confessions
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: alone are not proof even in fact, many times people
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: falsely confess to different cases, whether it's for attention or
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: who knows why. So, detectives needed to determine whether he
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: was simply seeking attention or whether he was genuinely possessing
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: knowledge that only the killer could have known. So to
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: answer that question, they began comparing his statements against archived
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: police reports and evidence collected during old investigations, and when
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: they did so, the results were startling. Again and again,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Yachem provided details that matched information contained in police files.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: He described locations where victims had been found, He explained
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: how encounters had begun, and recalled facts that had never
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: been released publicly. Some of the murders had occurred more
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: than fifteen years earlier, Yet investigators repeatedly found themselves reading
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: old reports and discovering that Yakim's statements aligned with what
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: detectives at the time documented. And as confidence in the
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: list of confessions grew, police began reopening long forgotten investigations.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Case files were pulled from storages. Detectives traveled throughout Western Germany,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: reviewing evidence, revisiting crime scenes connected to murders that many
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: people had long assumed would never be solved, and one
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: by one, victims who had previously existed as separate investigations
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: began becoming part of something much larger. Among the cases
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: re examined were the murder of Mingard de Strel, Clara
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Frieda Tesmer, Manuela not Petra Giese, Monica Taffel, Ursula Roling,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Maria Hepgin, jutah Ron, and several others as well. Investigators
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: also scrutinized Joachim's admissions regarding Barbara Bruder, whose disappearance had
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: remained one of the most frustrating mysteries in the entire
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: series because her body had never been recovered. Now, to
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: verify what he was saying, detectives conducted a number of
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: crime scene reconstructions. Joachim was taken back to locations connected
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: to earlier murders and asked to explain what had happened,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: and these exercises were not performed for dramatic effect. They
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: were designed to test his credibility if he was lying.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Investigators expected him to make mistakes, but instead he repeatedly
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: demonstrated familiarity with locations and details that strengthened the evidence
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: and the case that was coming against him. Now, at
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: this point, as the investigation expanded, detectives slowly began to
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: understand something that had previously seemed impossible. For more than
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: twenty years, police departments across Western Germany had been investigating
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: the very same offender without ever realizing it. Different jurisdictions
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: had pursued different suspects, different investigators had developed different theories,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: and in several cases, innocent men had even been arrested, imprisoned,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: or publicly accused, while the actual killer continued living an
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: ordinary life in Dusburg. Only now, with Jaquim sitting in
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: an interview room was the full scope of that failure
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: becoming visible to them.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: How mind blowing would that be? Hey, being an investigator
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: and you're thinking that you're investigating one murder and then
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: it just keeps like spiraling and snowballing, and all of
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: a sudden, you're up to, like, I don't even know,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: you know, a dozen plus victims.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be I feel like that would be.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, of course, this is not a very good comparison,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: but it's a comparison maybe we're able to relate to.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: So that's why I'm using it. Like sitting down and
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: watching The Sixth Sense for the first time and realizing
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: that Bruce Willis was I hope you guys have seen
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: that movie. I don't want to give the spoiler away.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I just realized I'm doing this, but that realizing that
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Bruce Willis was dead the whole time, you know, seeing
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: that and having that moment of what the fuck has
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: been going on this whole time without me not even noticing?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: M hmm, yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, I
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: can't even comprehend it, because you would think you're just
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: investigating one thing and then.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: It's snowballs, and then more and more and more.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I mean it would be not in a in a
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: way that you're you know, solving or potentially solving all
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: these cases. Oh definitely, but still I just think it
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: would be quite alarming, yucky feeling.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: For sure, to know that this oversight had gone on
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: for twenty years, that everyone was investigating separately, and if
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: only you connected, could something maybe have happened.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: But its cases like these that I'm sure has made,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: you know, different cities be able to be connected in
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: their investigations, right for sure.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: It changes you know, different ways that procedures are operating
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: in how they look at different things, and it's evolved
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: since then. It is much different today now.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: It needs to be, it needed to be, it does.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Now to be fair, Like a lot of those different
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: jurisdictions and authorities and investigators they had hadn't had the
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: means to really look beyond. They didn't even have the
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: reason because people didn't travel like they do today as well,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: so it was a lot different. And to have that realization,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I feel like, would be a gut punch, yeah, for
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: anyone who was investigating. Not their fault by any means,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: but it would feel so heavy.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, it would give justification maybe why they weren't
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: solving these either for sure.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Right now, I do want to say, though, not every
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: confession that came out of Yakim's mouth could be proven
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt. Some murders had occurred far too
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: long ago, evidence had disappeared, witnesses had died, and memories
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: had long since faded, and investigators ultimately found themselves separating
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: the crimes, the ones that they believed Yakim had committed
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: and then the ones that they could realistically establish him
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: being responsible in court. So those are two different categories
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: that they're essentially putting him into Sure, maybe he did it,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: but can we prove it? No, Okay, we're not taking
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: that one to court. Can we prove this one, Yes,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: we're taking it to court. But even still those limitations
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: in place. With that, the picture had emerged, and it
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: was extraordinarily harsh. Still, the quiet laborer known as Uncle
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: yal Kim, spent more than two decades twenty one years
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: moving through western German while leaving a trail of victims
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: behind him, and detectives had finally identified him as the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: man responsible. But they also uncovered a troubling reality. This
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: was one of the country's longest running serial murder investigations
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: that had not been solved through forensic breakthroughs, undercover operations,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: or a dramatic manhunt at all. It ended, in fact,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: because a neighbor mentioned a strange comment about a blocked drain,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: and the rest followed simply because the monster responsible for
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: all these other crimes and murders decided he wanted to talk.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: In fact, even the comment about the blocked pipes like
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: being clogged by guts, seems to me potentially on purpose,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: as if he was hoping someone would catch him so
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: he would finally get to talk with someone about all
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: the things he'd done over the years. And if it
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: weren't for that, he probably would never have been caught.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly though, nine times out of ten or even
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: and probably greater, I feel like that Coleman would never
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: have been reported for sure. Isn't there a saying like, oh,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I shoot out my guts or whatever.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, blew up the toilet, shoot up my guts, all
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: those sort of things.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: So you could just think that he was just like
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: talking about he has some gnarly shits or something.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know now, And I do want to say
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: for clarification, the quote guts is translated, of course from
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: German to English, so that's a loose quote. I'm not
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: sure if you know, shitting out my guts is something
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: that they said in Germany in you know that era
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: or anything, right, So it's hard to say exactly, but
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: even still, yeah, you know what, don't go in there,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I clog the pipes, it's clogged with my innards or
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: whatever sort of situation gets reasonable. People make very odd
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: exclamations when it comes to, you know, bathrooms.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: And he was an odd dude exactly.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: So hard to say how that could have played out,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: how it should have played out, how it could have
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: been perceived, because.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Even now, I don't know if I would have taken
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: that as something that I would have needed to report, you.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Probably just would have avoided the guy from then on.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, I'm like, holy shit, this guy, like that's
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: just TMI.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I'm good, thanks for sure. Yeah, but that's the case,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: and it almost to me seems like he wanted to
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: be caught and wanted to talk about it now. The
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: challenge facing prosecutors, though, was not convincing themselves that he
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: was responsible for numerous murders. The confessions, the evidence recovered
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: from his apartment, the result of the reopening investigations, they
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: had already convinced law enforcement that he had finally or
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: they had finally identified the offender that had unknowingly been
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: under their nose this whole time for two decades. The
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: real challenge, though, was determining which one of those crimes
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: would be proven in a court of law, Which ones
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: did they actually have the evidence to prove, and that
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: distinction mattered enormously. And although investigators believed that he was
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: responsible for far more crimes than he would realistically be
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: prosecuted for the court would ultimately be limited to what
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: could be a state bablished through that evidence, rather than
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: suspicion or speculation. Now, the proceedings became one of the
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: most significant criminal trials in post war Germany. Over the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: course of one hundred and fifty one hearing days, the
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: court heard testimony from investigators, forensic specialists, psychiatrists, and numerous
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: other witnesses alike. Prosecutors presented evidence gathered both before and
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: after Jokim's arrest, while detectives explained how the confession had
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: been verified through old case files, crime scene examinations, and
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: reconstruction exercises conducted during the investigation. And one of the
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: most important issues examined during the trial was Joachim's mental condition.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Throughout the investigation, psychiatrists had spent considerable time evaluating him.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: They reviewed his childhood, educational history, intellectual functioning, and psychological development,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: and the testing placed his IQ in the high seventies,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: which was consistent with reports that been saying he was
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: struggling academically throughout his life and that he had difficulty
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: functioning independently in many situations. Now, the court, however, was
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: not being asked whether Joachim Kroll was intelligent, it was
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: being asked whether he understood the nature of his actions.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: That's the distinction we needed to know, and after extensive evaluations,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: psychiatric experts concluded that despite his intellectual limitations and significant
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: psychological abnormalities, he understood the difference between right and wrong.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: He knew his actions were criminal, he took steps to
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: avoid detection and altered his behavior when he believed discovery
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: was in fact possible, and those findings led the court
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: to conclude that he was legally responsible for the crimes
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: attributed to him. Now it's no surprise also to say
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: that at the trial it attracted enormous media attention. By
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: this point, newspaper coverage had betrayed Lachem as one of
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: the most notorious serial killers in Germany, which is not
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: a far stretch to say it all. Reports did, however,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: frequently focus on the most sensational aspects of the investigation,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: which is again no surprise to say it all either,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: But they also particularly focused on allegations concerning the treatment
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: of some of the victims after their death, as there
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: were reports and speculation of him eating his victims. In
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: many cases, if you recall there were strips of flesh
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: taken from several of his victims that were attributed to him.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: There was a hand found boiling in a pond alongside
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: some vegetables in his apartment, and Jaquim himself even admitted
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to eating their remains.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I honestly, this whole time since you mentioned that,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I haven't been able to stop thinking about the hand. Yeah,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and just like how you'd have to go and tell
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: the family that.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: Your four year old's hand was found making a fucking soup.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't even Oh, that
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: should just never be anything that anyone hears.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: No. Now, as investigators were focusing solely on the facts
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: that they could prove, though this information was not a
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: piece they chased but for the media. On the other hand,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: fascinations sometimes blurred the line of established facts. Now, inside
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: the courtroom, the focus remained on that evidence. It wasn't
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: a situation where they needed to prove that he committed
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a crime or a murder. It was instead how much
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: they could prove in the eyes of the law, and
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: after months of testimony and review, a decision was finally
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: reached on April eighth, nineteen eighty two, Jakim Kroll was
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: convicted on eight counts of murder and one count of
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: attempted murder associated with the surviving victim identified during the investigation.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: He had, however, confessed to a total of fourteen murders,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: but eight was all the prosecution could prove. He was
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: subsequently sentenced to life in prison. For any of the
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: families involved, the verdict represented the end of a weight,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: one that had lasted years or even decades. The conviction
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: could never undo the harm that was done, though, nor
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: could it return the people who had lost their lives.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: But what it did provide, at least, was an answer.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: After more than twenty years of uncertainty, the person responsible
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: had finally been identified and finally had been held accountable.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Now after his conviction in nineteen eighty two, Jakim Kroll
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: was incarcerated at Rhenbach Prison, where he served his life sentence.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: And despite the overwhelming evidence present against him and the
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: findings in the court, several reports suggest that Jaquim never
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: fully understood the magnitude of what he had done, which
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: is something I fully disagree with. But there are reports
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: that say throughout his imprisonment he reportedly continued to believe
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: that his violent urges were something that could be treated
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: and that he might one day be cured of. Now
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: whether this reflected genuine misunderstanding or self deception, or a
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: limited grasp of reality, it remains difficult to determine. But regardless,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I personally do not think it means he didn't understand
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: his actions. To me, it just looks like he saw
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: his actions as a disease, something he could be purified from,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: purifying his system of rather than an impulse he decided
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: to act on or not, something he did not control
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: on his own free will. Now, whatever the case, the
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: world would finally be rid of an evil on July first,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, as Jakim Krole died of a heart
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: attack at the age of fifty eight. His death brought
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: an end to his life, but it did not bring
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the end to the consequences of his crimes. For the
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: families of his victim, the damage was permanent. Some had
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: waited decades to learn what had happened to their loved ones.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Others had endured years of uncertainty, while investigations stalled and
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: leads disappeared even after his confessions. Not every question could
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: be answered. In cases such as Barbara Bruder's disappearance, important
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: details remained unknown because crucial evidence had never been recovered.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: The case also left a lasting mark on Germans criminal investigations.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: One of the clearest lessons involved communication between police agencies.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Jochem operated across multiple jurisdictions at a time when information
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: sharing was far more limited than it is today. Looking back,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: it is so easy to recognize that pattern. But back
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: then technology and fragmented records, with detectives working far apart
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: in different cases and trying to piece it all together,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: it was much harder. And because they were trying to
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: find some one responsible for these horrible crimes, they eventually
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: found themselves targeting innocent people. Men such as vinzhn Kuhn,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Walter Quicker, Adolf Schickel, and Peter Sha were also victims
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: of the story. They were innocent men who found themselves accused, arrested, imprisoned,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: or publicly suspected of crimes they never committed. Some lost
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: years of their lives, others lost their reputation, and some
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: even lost their lives because of it. Their stories serve
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: as a reminder that when the wrong person becomes a
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: focus of an investigation, the damage can extend far beyond
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the courtroom, and what continues to make Yakim's case so
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: disturbing is the contrast between appearance and reality. For more
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: than twenty years, he lived as an ordinary laborer in
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: working class communities throughout Western Germany. He held jobs, he
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: paid rent, he rode public transportation, and interacted with neighbors
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: who viewed him as an awkward but harmless man. Local
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: children called him Uncle Yaquim, and nothing about his public
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: image suggested that he had been connected to a series
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: of murders stretching all the way back to the nineteen fifties,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: and in the end, that ordinary appearance became one of
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: his greatest protections. But the story of Jaquim Kroll is
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: often focused on him, and understandably so. He is a
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: figure who did so many horrible acts that when you
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: look at the case, we have to focus on him
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: and his actions to try and understand it all. But
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: just because we focus on him doesn't mean that he
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: should be the one who is remembered. He has a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: long list of victims that all deserve much more than
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: he does. At its core, the case is a story
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: about people whose lives were taken Mingard Strell, Erica Schettler,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Clara Frida Tesler, Manuela not, Petra Geese, Monica Taffel, Barbara Bruder,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Hermann schmidtz Ursula Rowling, Ilona Hark, Maria Hepgin, Juta Rhan,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Karen Topfer, Marion Ketter. These are the names of those
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: he confessed to killing. Fourteen individuals he's connected to. Marian
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Veen was a survivor who witnessed her fiance's murder first hand.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Walter Quicker, Adolf Schickel, Heinrich Aunt. They were all individuals
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: who committed suicide after being wrongfully accused of murder as
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: the pressures of the situation became far too much for
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: them to handle. Those names are the true legacy of
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: this case. They are the reason Joaquim's story continues to
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: be remembered, studied, and discussed decades after his death, not
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: because of who he was, but because of what happened
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: to them. And that's the story of Jaquim Kroll, the
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Ruhor Cannibal.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: How many people did you say ended their life?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Was it three? Three?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So?
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: When I was writing part one Heinrich Aunt, I did
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: not mention his suicide. I was unaware that he had
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: committed suicide during that part of my research, so I
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: found recently while I was doing part two here writing
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: it up, that he in fact did commit suicide as well.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: So there was three that had self deleted because of
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: being falsely accused and it all being too much.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's terrible, you know. And I also because at
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: some point in the courts they were like, well, did
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: he comprehend what he was doing? But I'm sorry, like,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: if something spans twenty years, you can't have something span
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: that long. I feel like, and you not know what
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: you're doing.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Well, no, they did say that he knew what he
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: was doing, but in prison afterwards there's journalists and reporters
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: that maybe even psychiatrists who believe he didn't fully understand.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: He understands right and wrong, but they're suggesting that he
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: believes what he has is more like a disease, like
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: he could be cured and he can go free one day.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Like he's hearing voices or something, or these people like
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: something's telling him to do these bad acts at times.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if he's hearing voices, but he
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: has impulses. He's doing this thing, and he's like, oh, well,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: you guys can treat me. I won't be doing this anymore.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: You can just let me go, right, Like he doesn't
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: understand the consequences of what he's doing, that he is
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: in jail for life. You can't just cure yourself of
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: being a murderer.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think that. I don't think that would
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: be curable. No, when you have when it spanned that long.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: No, I do think he is. And because of that,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: I do think he is very well aware of right
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: and wrong. He's very well aware of what he did.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: He's just not understand he's there forever he thinks it's like, oh, well,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: you caught me I was doing bad. Like as a child,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: you reprimand him, you put him in the corner, you
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: teach him a lesson, and then it's okay to continue on.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I think that's how he sees it, almost like he's
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: looking at police like his mother. When he was younger.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: His mother would reprimand him, his mother would teach him,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: his mother would care for it, and they'd move on,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: and they'd move on. And I think that's how he's
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: looking at it, not that he doesn't understand what he did.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: He just has an expectation that is far from reality.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Huh Oh, this one kind of leaves me a bit speechless.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I find this one very hard to understand,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: just because he didn't seem like he had a whole
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: lot of an m a either.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: No, not really. I mean there was sexual drive, there
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: was a cannibalistic drive, and there was an opportunistic drive too,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: because we found that he you know, the lover's laying couple. Ye,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: he attack them because of an opportunity. But was he
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: out there looking though? We don't know, so.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: He's just yeah, he's just like this legit monster lurking,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: and yeah, I guess it's just opportunity really.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: But going back to part one as well, he was
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: very socially awkward. He wasn't very good with women, and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: he had this fantasy of dominating too. And so when
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: he would take some girl, like his earlier ones, he
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: would take some girl off somewhere on a country road
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: or whatever, convince them to go off somewhere, make an advance,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: and when he was declined, when they would say no,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: he pounce. He'd strangle, he would dominate, and then he
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: would rape them or engage in necrophilia, and then it
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: just evolved from there. So he definitely does have an MO,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: but it is a very broad one because not only
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: is it a dominating fantasy, it's also killing. It's also
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: to do with children, it's also opportunity, it's also cannibalistic.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: It is so encompassing. I think because he is so awkward,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: he just explored every avenue available to him.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Huh gosh, yeah.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense? At least that's my person.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: No, it does make sense. It's just yeah, I don't know.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: For some reason today, I'm like having trouble comprehending that
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: people like this exist, even though we're we're almost at
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: our four hundredth episode and I just still I don't
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: know this just to have the spangle on that long
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: and just the range of ages and like, yeah, what
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: he was doing to them, I don't know. It just
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: is making me feel like this world sucks.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: You're not wrong with that, I agree wholeheartedly.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because holy shit, the fact that someone like that
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: exists in this world is just beyond me.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: And the idea that he operated for over twenty years. Yeah,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: exactly when twenty one years, twenty one years, like.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: In twenty one years, you don't step back and realize,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: holy shit, what the fuck is wrong with me?
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: And if he did have this view of you know,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: it's a disease or something he could be cured of
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: over twenty years, you didn't try and rid yourself of
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: it yourself. Now that you're caught, you're expected to be like, oh,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: well you can just reprimmand me and send me back
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: and I'll be okay, fuck off.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and imagine all those like the people that he
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: lived around right that called him uncle and them, how
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: would you ever go about trusting a stranger again right
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: after learning no kidding what he's been doing behind the
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: curtains or behind the door or whatever.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Oh it's wild, huh, just bonkers, bonkers for sure.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's gonna be my sum up. This case is bonkers.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: That's a good sum up. But yeah, if you guys
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: have any thoughts, especially, I'm really curious to hear what
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: you have to say in regards to Jaqim believing that
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: it was something and he's kind of curable of almost
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: at the end. And again, I don't know if he
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: really thought he was curable per se, but that's what
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: the reports seem to suggest that he had that perspective.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I want to know your thoughts on that, So shoot
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: us a message and email or anything or social links
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: or all. In the description you can go to our
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: website and contact us that way. Yeah, if you want
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: to leave us a review. We are an independent show.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: No one else tells us what to do. We work
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: with a couple podcast companies. Sure they help distribute it,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: but it is us and you that's it. And because
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: of that, we are so thankful for you and your participation.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: If you're listening here right now to me talk, we
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: appreciate it. And until next time.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Stay wicked, big.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: Big b
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: Oh oh