Latest / Karl and Crew / Biblical Help for Spiritual Depression with Nate Pickowicz & Learning Childlike Dependence on God with Paul Miller

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Biblical Help for Spiritual Depression with Nate Pickowicz & Learning Childlike Dependence on God with Paul Miller · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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  S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S2: I'm starting to now be a little nervous when I
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  S2: see branches that look a little flimsy. Yeah, I find
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  S2: myself kind of like just checking some out on my walk.
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  S2: That branch looks stable. Because I feel like there's so many.
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  S2: At least where I'm living, there's just a lot of downed, like,
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  S2: really large limbs.
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S2: Yes. That just are coming down.
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  S3: This is kind of the first year I haven't had
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  S3: much of that around my house. But you're right. When
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  S3: you see those big branches on the ground, you're a
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  S3: little more prone to just start looking up as you're going, like, okay,
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  S3: I need to make sure that I'm not walking under
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  S3: something that's going to collapse on me. Right now.
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  S2: They're just hanging out there, and then all of a
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  S2: sudden you get those big storms. There's there's the house
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  S2: across the street from me, had a big chunk of
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  S2: their tree come down a couple a couple weeks ago. Okay.
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  S2: And so I don't even it didn't even feel like
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  S2: it was that significant of a storm. Like I think
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  S2: the wind gusts were bad.
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  S4: Right? It's the way the wind is coming through and
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  S4: the twisting of the wind.
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  S2: My daughter drove home and she was like, did you
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  S2: see that tree down across the street? And I did
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  S2: what all people over the age of, I don't know,
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  S2: over a certain age. Let me go see. Because I mean,
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  S2: because I am becoming my parents.
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  S4: So your dad would be proud.
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  S2: I don't know what it is. And so I'm like
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  S2: at the window. And then I'm like, I can't see
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  S2: good enough from the window. So let me go out
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  S2: and investigate.
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  S3: I think that that's an every when I was a kid,
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  S3: I'd love to go. I mean, everyone loves to go
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  S3: see what's going on.
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  S2: My husband always tells me to not do that. He's like,
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  S2: stop being nosy. If it doesn't pertain to you, just
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  S2: keep it moving. And I'm like, this is a tree
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  S2: in our neighborhood. Let me go check it out. So
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  S2: I go and I'm like peering. And sure enough, this
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  S2: was probably a oh boy, this branch had had to
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  S2: be at least 10 to 12ft. And it's big. And
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  S2: so it came down and it was like, wow, covering
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  S2: most of the part of the intersection. So like if
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  S2: you were driving down our block, you were going to
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  S2: have to make a pretty wide veer around to even
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  S2: get through the intersection.
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  S3: So did you go up there and pull it back?
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  S2: No, of course not. And and I didn't. I figured
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  S2: that since it wasn't my tree and there were other
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  S2: people around, I didn't like, call and report it either,
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  S2: which I've been known to do.
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  S3: Ain't nothing bad about. I'm a caller and reporter, man.
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  S3: I'm like, someone's got to do something about it.
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  S2: Someone should call and report this. So anyway, so this tree,
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  S2: it it's been now probably a good three weeks. And
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  S2: when it first came down, it was all still green
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  S2: and leafy. And then very quickly, I don't know if
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  S2: it was the neighbor or somebody else came and kind
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  S2: of chopped it all up so that it could be
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  S2: moved out of the main part of the street, but
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  S2: it's still there, right? So it's still now this pile
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  S2: of tree debris that's just been sitting for the better
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  S2: part of three weeks. And it's interesting to watch the
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  S2: transformation of a branch that was once connected to the
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  S2: tree that is now in pieces on the ground.
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  S3: And the difference between what those two things can do.
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  S2: We could not talk about dependence on God this week
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  S2: without going to one of the hallmark passages we talk
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  S2: about on this show, and it is one of my
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  S2: personal favorites. John 115. The vine and the branches dependence
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  S2: on God. Let's go there.
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  S1: Your spiritual pit stop to keep you going in the race.
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  S1: You're listening to Carl and Crew.
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  S2: You know, one of the first illustrations that I remember
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  S2: Carl using, and maybe you remember this was back in
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  S2: the day. This was like Carl and crew, early days.
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  S3: Oh, yeah. This is like one of the one of
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  S3: the bedrock passages we've had since our beginning.
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  S2: Yes. So let me read it to you then I'm
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  S2: going to explain how Carl illustrated this. So this is
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  S2: John 15. I'm going to read verses one through five.
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  S2: I am the true vine, and my father is the
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  S2: vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear
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  S2: fruit he takes away. And every branch that does bear
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  S2: fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already
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  S2: you are clean because of the word that I have
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  S2: spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you.
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  S2: As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it
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  S2: abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide
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  S2: in me. I am the vine. You are the branches.
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  S2: Whoever abides in me, and I in him, he it
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  S2: is that bears much fruit. For apart from me you
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  S2: can do nothing. Very familiar passage of Scripture to many
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  S2: of you. Do you remember the illustration, how Carl illustrates this?
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  S2: Have you. Have you been privy to this?
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  S3: Yes, I believe so. It involves spoons. So does he
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  S3: use spoons? One time I remember.
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  S2: He used spoons.
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  S3: Or. Yeah. You know what? Okay. This is before he
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  S3: started doing the thing with people.
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  S2: Oh, okay.
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  S3: He used spoons before people, and then he started using people.
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  S3: But yes.
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  S2: So the people illustration that he uses for this usually
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  S2: goes like this. He picks somebody and he says, what
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  S2: does he say?
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  S3: He says, you're going to be.
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  S2: Jesus to be Jesus. We've all seen him do this,
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  S2: and then he picks somebody else. Let's say, let's say
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  S2: for this illustration, Jonathan, you get to be Jesus. And
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  S2: then he says, Diana, you're going to go over there
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  S2: and your only job, put your hand on Jonathan's shoulder
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  S2: and just stay there. I'm paraphrasing this very loosely. That's
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  S2: your only job. You just got to stay connected here.
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  S2: Just put your hand on the shoulder, and then he
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  S2: finds something that's going to represent fruit. I remember one
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  S2: time he did this. I think there was like a
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  S2: thing of jelly beans.
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  S3: Yes, you're right, you're right.
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  S5: You are right.
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  S3: Good fruit.
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  S5: This is clearly a very memorable illustration.
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  S2: And so then with one hand, John Diana, you've got
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  S2: one hand on Jonathan's shoulder. Jonathan, who represents Jesus. Diana.
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  S2: And then in your other hand, you get to hold
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  S2: the jelly beans. And so it's this simple illustration that
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  S2: it is the connectivity between you as the vine that
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  S2: bears fruit. Right? And so there's some definitions that I
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  S2: think are important because this is a very, very simple parable.
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  S2: I think it's pretty easy to get the meaning.
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  S3: Yes, absolutely.
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  S2: But I think it is important to remind us that
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  S2: Jesus is the vine. Because sometimes when I when we
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  S2: read like I am the vine, it's like, no, no, no, no,
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  S2: we have to remember who the I is here, who
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  S2: the voice is. So Jesus is the vine, the gardener,
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  S2: the vine dresser. Well, that represents the father, the branch
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  S2: that's the disciple of Jesus. That's you. That's me. Yeah.
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  S2: Remain abide. That's to maintain connection and intimacy and the fruit,
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  S2: of course. And you think about the fruit that comes
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  S2: off of an apple tree. Well, it's an apple. The
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  S2: fruit is the result of a life in Christ that
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  S2: brings glory to God and nourishment to other people. So
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  S2: let me just read that key part again. I am
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  S2: the true vine. My father is the vine dresser. I'm
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  S2: going to skip down a little bit. Abide in me
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  S2: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit
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  S2: by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can
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  S2: you unless you abide in me. So I want to
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  S2: ask you this morning, what does it look like to
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  S2: be fruitful? Think about it. We want to bear fruit.
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  S2: We know we're called to bear fruit. We know from
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  S2: this passage that it is to his glory that we
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  S2: bear much fruit. But what does that look like? Let's
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  S2: talk about it coming up.
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  S1: Your shot of hope to get you through the day.
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  S4: You are so, so loved. God does not want you
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  S4: to stay in your past. And I want you to
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  S4: know and believe that today.
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  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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  S2: You know, for years I had this bowl of fake
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  S2: apples that was a centerpiece on my coffee table. And
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  S2: I think I got him at Hobby Lobby or one
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  S2: of those crafting stores.
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  S3: Those things are so funny.
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  S2: I think I even had some lemons too, at some point.
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  S4: That's plastic.
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  S2: Fruit. I was in my fake fruit era, but it
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  S2: made a nice decor piece because I mean, to be honest,
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  S2: they didn't look that realistic. The lemons looked more realistic
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  S2: than the apples, for sure. The lemons, I think, are
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  S2: easier to fake.
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  S3: Yeah, I think so. They're not as smooth skinned. Anyway, you.
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  S2: Get a little texture, some variation of yellow.
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  S3: And it makes sense. You can have a little dent
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  S3: in the skin of a lemon and it looks a
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  S3: little more normal.
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  S2: But over the years, the apples that sat on that
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  S2: coffee table one, they collect a surprising amount of dust.
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  S2: That's really that's, that's a first giveaway. But at one point,
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  S2: because they, you know, after after kids and they got
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  S2: thrown around quite a bit. Yeah. So they were.
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  S3: Definitely in the.
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  S2: House. They were definitely launched a couple of times. So
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  S2: one of the apples in particular, when you turned it,
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  S2: you could see where the red had kind of chipped away,
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  S2: revealing the Styrofoam. It was actually Styrofoam underneath. So okay,
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  S2: just make sure that that one is like face up.
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  S2: Don't inspect the fruit too closely. You know, when we
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  S2: think about living a fruitful life, one of the biggest
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  S2: takeaways out of John 15, and this is one of
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  S2: the foundational Carling Cru passages, I would say there's a
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  S2: couple that I would point to, and this is one
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  S2: of them that we everything kind of comes back to
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  S2: this that are living fruitful is all about proximity and
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  S2: not performance.
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  S4: 100% hands down.
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  S3: It's the only way it can be.
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  S4: No argument.
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  S2: We go back, right back to the text. I am
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  S2: the vine, you are the branches. Whoever abides in me
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  S2: and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit.
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  S2: For apart from me you can do nothing. We cannot
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  S2: get away from the fact that there is nothing, nothing
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  S2: of value, of eternal value that we can do apart
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  S2: from him.
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  S3: And it kind of comes back to this point that
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  S3: we hit a lot yesterday. Sometimes we just give ourselves
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  S3: way more credit than we deserve. Thinking that we we
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  S3: do more than we actually do. Yeah. And I you
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  S3: look at a branch and you see it on the ground.
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  S3: No one expects a, a branch that's not connected to
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  S3: a tree or a vine to have anything coming out
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  S3: of it. And anything that's alive on it, if it's
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  S3: been recently cut off, you expect it to be soon dead.
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  S2: And so you cannot escape the fact that the most
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  S2: fruitful people are the people who abide. And I'm not
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  S2: talking about just look fruitful because there's it's easy to
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  S2: be very busy and active in doing things for God.
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  S2: And I'm using that kind of an air quotes because
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  S2: our motive, even our motives can get a little squiggly,
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  S2: as Carl likes to say.
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  S3: 100%.
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  S2: But I'm wondering, in what area of your life are
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  S2: you a. Are you tempted to try to be fruitful
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  S2: apart from abiding, you would not say that. But if
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  S2: you're honest, you're most tempted in this area to try
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  S2: to go about producing something good not connected to him.
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  S2: And for me, I can tell you exactly where that is.
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  S2: That is in my role of mentorship or counseling, not
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  S2: in a formal way, but kind of advising other people.
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  S2: One of the things that I've noticed in this season
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  S2: of life is that the Lord often directs me to
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  S2: younger women, women who are, you know, maybe ten plus
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  S2: years younger than me.
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  S4: Mentorship.
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  S2: Yeah. And not in a formal like, hey, do you
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  S2: want to be my mentor kind of way? Although I've
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  S2: had that happen to. But relationally, I find myself in,
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  S2: in a position of kind of a where there are,
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  S2: there are older women that I look to and I
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  S2: find that there are now some younger women that look
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  S2: to me? And so what I realized is that if
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  S2: I'm not careful, I can start to try to with
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  S2: very good intentions.
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  S3: Absolutely.
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  S2: Of course, because it's not like I'm like, here, let
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  S2: me dispense some fake apples. You want a bite of
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  S2: this Styrofoam apple that's collecting dust on my coffee table?
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  S2: That's not my intent. But if I'm not careful, I
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  S2: can try. I can rely on experience, on just kind
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  S2: of life lived, even on lessons learned. And there's a
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  S2: place for all of that. Sure. But if it's not
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  S2: rooted in an abiding dependence on God, I have to
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  S2: be so careful because what am I giving someone if
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  S2: I'm not abiding?
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  S3: Yeah. You know, I this is funny because we we
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  S3: talked with Abdu Murray recently. Oh, okay. Uh, but it
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  S3: was actually after the interview, uh, that he dispensed some
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  S3: knowledge that it just wasn't a part, it was just
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  S3: in some conversation we were having in here and, and
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  S3: how amazing of a speaker he is because he really
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  S3: is so skilled at it. And he said, you know,
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  S3: I learned something, uh, from, from one of my teachers
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  S3: who was also a skilled speaker. He said that I
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  S3: need to remember every day to trust God and use
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  S3: my knowledge instead of trusting my knowledge and using God.
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  S3: And I thought that was so profound because we have things,
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  S3: all of us, that we are skilled at. And, and Ali,
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  S3: obviously people are coming to you for mentorship. It's easy
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  S3: sometimes when we're not thinking about it and not intentionally, subconsciously.
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  S3: So it's this way to trust more in your ability
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  S3: to dispense wisdom than going to the source and trusting
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  S3: in God to provide it for you.
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  S2: It's a great example. And what comes to mind for
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  S2: you guys? I'm curious. And you think as you're listening,
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  S2: what area of your life are you maybe tempted to
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  S2: trust more in your gifting and your skill and your
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  S2: experience rather than truly abiding, and like a branch that's
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  S2: connected to a vine simply bearing fruit as the Lord
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  S2: leads you. Give us a call or text on this one.
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  S2: I would love to hear from you. (800) 555-7898 (800) 555-7898. What
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  S2: comes to mind?
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  S3: Yeah, I think for me, because like we're talking about,
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  S3: it comes with the things that sometimes we're a little
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  S3: more skilled at that God has gifted us in. Uh,
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  S3: for me, I have a teaching gift. I really enjoy
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  S3: teaching the word. I don't want to give fake fruit. Yeah.
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  S3: But sometimes I struggle and can struggle with trusting in
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  S3: my ability to speak words clearly. Yeah. And and so
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  S3: before I get up and I preach, I usually am
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  S3: in a lot of prayer. Uh, asking God to help me,
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  S3: really putting my focus back on him because the struggle
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  S3: is real to, you know, when it comes down to it,
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  S3: when you're nervous, when you're afraid, you know when it's coming.
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  S3: Quick at you. What do you do? The first thing
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  S3: you're going to try to do, uh, in your flesh,
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  S3: is to turn to yourself and say, okay, what do
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  S3: you have inside to be able to do this? And
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  S3: those are some of my least successful times of doing anything.
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  S2: Totally. Because, because you can, you can prepare, you can
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  S2: have all these notes and you can feel like that
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  S2: was pretty powerless. Yeah. And not like you're trusting in
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  S2: your feelings. But there are times when, you know, when
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  S2: you're leaning on the power of the Holy Spirit, and
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  S2: there are times when you know you are pushing and
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  S2: striving to try to make something happen in your own strength.
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  S3: And that's one of the things I've really enjoyed about, uh,
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  S3: make it a metaphor. Yeah. You know, for instance, is
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  S3: because I genuinely don't hear any of the things that
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  S3: are coming up. And so I don't have an opportunity
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  S3: to just trust my ability to speak, uh, because I
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  S3: don't know what I'm going to be talking about. And,
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  S3: and so before those moments, I do have to sit
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  S3: in here and pray and say, God, I don't know
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  S3: what I'm about to hear, but give me wisdom that
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  S3: will help people grow. Yeah. Not that we'll make me
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  S3: look good. That will that will get me out of
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  S3: this situation, but that will help people grow. Uh, and,
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  S3: and that's where he comes in and does work. And
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  S3: I'm happy about that.
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  S2: What do you say?
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  S4: I, I think too, when you're sharing with someone or
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  S4: God put you in that situation, you need to be
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  S4: really careful. You don't make it about yourself.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S4: Right. That's a big one. It's like, okay, yes. You know,
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  S4: I hear you. I went through the same thing and
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  S4: then all of a sudden you start spewing and going,
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  S4: wait a minute, the tables have just turned and I've
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  S4: made it all about me. And you're looking at them
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  S4: and they're staring at you and you're like, whoa, I
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  S4: just fell off the tree. I am laying on the ground.
• 17:19
  S4: I am not abiding. And God is not redeeming this
• 17:22
  S4: story in any way, shape or form for this person.
• 17:24
  S4: So God, yeah, take it and you use it. But yeah,
• 17:28
  S4: be careful. We can make it about ourselves.
• 17:31
  S2: And there's so much grace here. So I don't want
• 17:33
  S2: this to become like this heavy laden, heavy yoked. Kind
• 17:36
  S2: of awesome. Because the fact of the matter is you
• 17:40
  S2: don't like. We don't always get five five hours of preparation. No,
• 17:46
  S2: like an hour of of prayer before a tough conversation.
• 17:49
  S4: No.
• 17:50
  S2: A lot of times, oftentimes this stuff comes kind of
• 17:54
  S2: unexpectedly on the fly, right?
• 17:56
  S3: That's, that's real too. And I think that we how
• 18:02
  S3: do I say it? We have done ourselves a little
• 18:05
  S3: bit of disservice in general, not saying everyone does this,
• 18:09
  S3: but I feel like there's this little bit of like, yeah,
• 18:13
  S3: to always take time ahead, to pray and to discuss
• 18:17
  S3: it with God. And if you don't have that time, well,
• 18:19
  S3: then you're kind of just like done with. Yeah, no,
• 18:22
  S3: it's good to prep and pray when you have the
• 18:24
  S3: time to do that. But God is a God who's
• 18:26
  S3: present right here in this moment, right now to speak
• 18:30
  S3: to us in the moment. And so you may have
• 18:34
  S3: five seconds of, okay, you're hearing something right now and
• 18:37
  S3: you've got to respond right now. Why? God can be
• 18:41
  S3: here in those moments too. Yeah. And I think we
• 18:43
  S3: do ourselves a disservice of kind of subconsciously thinking that
• 18:45
  S3: he can't be.
• 18:46
  S2: Because then it can be, it becomes back to how
• 18:49
  S2: well did I prepare?
• 18:50
  S3: Exactly.
• 18:51
  S2: It can very quickly, oh boy, it's all about you.
• 18:53
  S2: It's amazing how quickly it gets back to us. You know,
• 18:56
  S2: I remember a pastor saying one time it was a quote.
• 19:00
  S2: And basically I may not get it word for word,
• 19:03
  S2: but he said daily dependence leads to on the spot reliability.
• 19:08
  S2: And so what I took from that is, is it's
• 19:10
  S2: our daily abiding in walking with him that allows us
• 19:14
  S2: to be prepared in the moment, on the spot when
• 19:17
  S2: there's no time to. That's also true, you know, to,
• 19:20
  S2: to search 500 different cross-references and, and study the original Greek.
• 19:27
  S2: And there's no time for that. You've got something right
• 19:29
  S2: in front of you that you have to make a
• 19:31
  S2: judgment call. You have to help somebody make a decision,
• 19:33
  S2: or you're called to be fruitful in some area where
• 19:36
  S2: you didn't even see it coming. And so we can
• 19:39
  S2: trust that it's and that's the encouragement, right? That as
• 19:42
  S2: we just daily abide and depend on him, the fruit
• 19:46
  S2: is bore from our life, not because of us.
• 19:50
  S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
• 19:53
  S1: This is Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 19:56
  S2: Well, it is Wednesday morning. And boy, oh boy. Sometimes
• 20:00
  S2: you feel like you just need a little bit of
• 20:02
  S2: a laugh to lighten the mood. It can feel heavy, right?
• 20:07
  S3: Oh, goodness.
• 20:07
  S2: Yeah.
• 20:08
  S3: All right. Heavy stuff. All the time. We need to laugh.
• 20:10
  S1: Making herself laugh no matter who joins her. It's time
• 20:14
  S1: for Allie thinks it's funny.
• 20:17
  S2: Couple disclaimers before I tell these jokes. And I'm giving
• 20:22
  S2: you three this morning. A little bonus this half hour.
• 20:26
  S3: Wow. Thank you.
• 20:27
  S2: Jonathan and Super Di are not going to laugh at
• 20:29
  S2: any of these jokes.
• 20:30
  S3: Wow.
• 20:31
  S2: You're just not.
• 20:32
  S4: My.
• 20:33
  S2: They're just not.
• 20:33
  S3: Don't do self-fulfilling prophecy.
• 20:35
  S2: No, I just I know that that's the case because
• 20:39
  S2: these are the cringe factor is high because I'm going
• 20:42
  S2: I'm sticking with my 4th of July theme on these jokes.
• 20:45
  S4: But I like that.
• 20:46
  S2: Okay, so they're not going to laugh and that is okay.
• 20:49
  S2: But I am still providing this service to you, the
• 20:52
  S2: fine listeners of this show. So this is 4th of
• 20:57
  S2: July themed jokes for you. Feel free to use one
• 20:59
  S2: or use all at your next gathering. Where did George
• 21:04
  S2: Washington keep his armies? Where did George Washington keep his armies?
• 21:10
  S2: A very specific place that he kept his armies. Virginia
• 21:14
  S2: in his sleeves.
• 21:17
  S3: In his what?
• 21:18
  S2: In his sleeves. He kept his armies in his sleeves.
• 21:24
  S4: Okay.
• 21:26
  S2: Joke number two.
• 21:28
  S4: Yeah.
• 21:29
  S2: What famous document gives birds certain inalienable rights? There is
• 21:37
  S2: a document that exists that gives birds certain inalienable rights.
• 21:42
  S3: Hadn't heard.
• 21:42
  S2: That. It's known as the declaration. Wow.
• 21:53
  S3: Okay. I'm not. Don't get me wrong. I'm not laughing
• 21:58
  S3: at the joke.
• 21:58
  S4: I know these are bad. I'm, like, laughing at Ali.
• 22:01
  S2: Trying to say declaration a couple times and not laugh.
• 22:04
  S2: I mean, come on, it's just. Okay. Last up.
• 22:07
  S4: I'm actually watering and everything.
• 22:09
  S2: They are. My eyes are watering. And this one I'm actually. Okay. Jonathan,
• 22:13
  S2: I'm gonna give this joke and I'm not even gonna
• 22:15
  S2: say the punchline. I'm just gonna ask you to play
• 22:17
  S2: the music.
• 22:18
  S3: The thing you asked me to play. Okay. Okay, you
• 22:20
  S3: got it.
• 22:21
  S2: What do you get when you cross a T-Rex with fireworks?
• 22:27
  S2: A T-Rex with fireworks and dynamite.
• 22:34
  S4: Thank you for using that bike. I have a great show.
• 22:38
  S4: Great show.
• 22:39
  S2: I had to text jokes to 800 555, 7898. I
• 22:45
  S2: enjoyed them text jokes to 800.
• 22:49
  S3: I liked okay, you know what? You're one for three
• 22:52
  S3: for me.
• 22:52
  S2: Which one?
• 22:53
  S3: Declaration.
• 22:54
  S2: Declaration.
• 22:54
  S3: Declaration. But it was really dynamite. Not even the dynamite.
• 22:58
  S4: The dynamite.
• 22:58
  S2: Thank you.
• 22:59
  S4: Thank you. Yes, I did. Super.
• 23:00
  S2: I appreciated it. Yes. Text jokes to 805 557898. Jokes
• 23:06
  S2: 805 557898.
• 23:09
  S1: She's a choreographer extraordinaire and everything is Greek to her.
• 23:14
  S1: Super di is in the crew. It's Carl and crew
• 23:18
  S1: on Moody Radio.
• 23:20
  S6: But when we think about.
• 23:21
  S2: What dependence on God looks like, sometimes it's hard for
• 23:25
  S2: us to picture. We know what it's like to depend
• 23:28
  S2: on a person. If we've. Everyone has been a child
• 23:31
  S2: and has been dependent on a parent or a grandparent
• 23:34
  S2: or a caregiver to meet those daily needs. But we
• 23:37
  S2: like to think that as we grow up, that our
• 23:40
  S2: need for others decreases. But dependence on God is a
• 23:44
  S2: lifelong goal, not something that we want to graduate out of.
• 23:48
  S2: Special guest. He's a new voice to Carl and crew.
• 23:51
  S2: Excited to introduce him. His name is Paul Miller. He's
• 23:54
  S2: the executive director of See Jesus, which is a global
• 23:56
  S2: discipleship mission. He's also an author of the book where
• 24:00
  S2: he talks a lot about this very subject. Paul, thank
• 24:03
  S2: you for being with us this morning. What has dependence
• 24:06
  S2: on God? How have you learned that lesson the most?
• 24:09
  S2: What has been the thing that is most kept that
• 24:12
  S2: at the forefront for you?
• 24:14
  S7: Uh, probably things going wrong and realizing that I can't
• 24:19
  S7: fix them. I think it was parenting that where, uh,
• 24:23
  S7: you know, we have six kids and a daughter with disabilities.
• 24:26
  S7: And I remember all the different ways, counting the different
• 24:30
  S7: ways our kids could fight. And I began to realize
• 24:34
  S7: that I just needed God to help me parent. And
• 24:38
  S7: so I began to parent by prayer.
• 24:41
  S2: Explain that to me a little bit more.
• 24:43
  S7: Well, like I realized, if I didn't pray every day
• 24:47
  S7: for every one of my kids by name and thoughtfully,
• 24:51
  S7: they would just kill one another. You know, it was
• 24:53
  S7: just there were so many different ways that that, that
• 24:58
  S7: things could go wrong in our house. And so, so
• 25:01
  S7: it was a learned dependence. I slowly learned that that
• 25:06
  S7: if I was just like a child before my heavenly Father, uh,
• 25:12
  S7: and just, and brought my problems to him very simply and,
• 25:17
  S7: and didn't try to get it organized necessarily, but I
• 25:20
  S7: just opened up my heart to him with, my concerns.
• 25:26
  S7: Then he actually heard me and he would start doing things.
• 25:30
  S7: So it's not complicated.
• 25:32
  S2: Well, you know, it's interesting because as a parent, you know, you,
• 25:36
  S2: you were trying to really embrace a child like faith
• 25:39
  S2: as you were trying to parent your own children. At
• 25:41
  S2: least that's what it sounds like. How did you see
• 25:43
  S2: God meet you there?
• 25:45
  S7: Well, maybe even before that, I, I had just in
• 25:49
  S7: my study of Jesus as a person from the Gospels,
• 25:53
  S7: I was so struck by, um, uh, like he, he
• 25:59
  S7: just says it all through, particularly the gospel of John,
• 26:02
  S7: that I do nothing on my own. Um, John 519.
• 26:06
  S7: I just do what I see my father doing. Like,
• 26:09
  S7: like Jesus himself talks like a child and he has
• 26:14
  S7: this soft dependent spirit. Um, and then in answer your question, like, so, so,
• 26:21
  S7: so that was a frame for me. Mhm. Uh, that.
• 26:24
  S7: So it was a way of becoming like Jesus to
• 26:28
  S7: be dependent on my Heavenly father, the way Jesus was
• 26:32
  S7: dependent on his heavenly Father. And then how how did
• 26:36
  S7: he meet me? Like the spirit would just show up
• 26:40
  S7: and do stuff. It's just like it happened all the time. Uh, like,
• 26:45
  S7: like it just so, so so now it it sort
• 26:49
  S7: of like I, I'm afraid of going through a day
• 26:52
  S7: that hasn't been prayed over.
• 26:53
  S2: Oh, wow. I love that Paul Miller, our guest this morning.
• 26:56
  S2: His book is called A Praying Life Connecting with God
• 27:00
  S2: in a Distracting World. What are some, I guess, warning
• 27:04
  S2: signs that we are trying to live life to independently?
• 27:10
  S2: That we have lost that childlike dependence on God? What
• 27:13
  S2: would you say are the warning signs?
• 27:15
  S7: There are so many different ones and. And the difficulty is,
• 27:18
  S7: is the warning signs become sort of part of us
• 27:21
  S7: that we don't even realize that they're signs. Uh, one
• 27:25
  S7: of the things, uh, is cynicism kind of it's very dominant. Uh,
• 27:30
  S7: it's just a kind of a quiet cynicism about God.
• 27:36
  S7: And what cynicism is, is, is kind of the beginning
• 27:40
  S7: of unbelief. Uh, like, and it's why so many Christians
• 27:44
  S7: are so prayerless, uh, that, that they just don't think
• 27:48
  S7: it works. Um, and, and so it, it's, um, it's
• 27:54
  S7: low level doubt and it's, it's, it just pervades the church.
• 27:59
  S2: And that was I, that's an unexpected answer. Tell me
• 28:02
  S2: a little bit more about what you're seeing the, the
• 28:04
  S2: pervasiveness of, of cynicism because, because you're right. But speak
• 28:08
  S2: to it a little bit more deeply.
• 28:09
  S7: Wow, I could go on forever. Here I was reading
• 28:12
  S7: a book, um, when I was writing a Praying Life. Uh,
• 28:17
  S7: and it was a good book. He was a good man.
• 28:20
  S7: But he said that, you know, prayer is about a
• 28:23
  S7: relationship with God. And, you know, it's not about God
• 28:26
  S7: doing things for you. And I know what he means. Like, like,
• 28:31
  S7: you know, prayer is not manipulation. It's not magic. But I,
• 28:35
  S7: I couldn't keep reading it because I need help. You know, I,
• 28:40
  S7: I need my kids to, you know, to learn to
• 28:42
  S7: love one another. I, you know, I, I run at
• 28:46
  S7: my love energy runs out and I need to be
• 28:49
  S7: filled with the spirit. So I need to turn and
• 28:52
  S7: ask for grace and that just that childlike move, instead
• 28:57
  S7: of going into depression or anger or anxiety, or where
• 29:02
  S7: you're just sort of bringing your life to God is
• 29:06
  S7: what kills cynicism. Uh, and, and it's not, oh, here,
• 29:10
  S7: let me give you just another quick example of that.
• 29:13
  S7: Augustine says something like this a little bit like, ask
• 29:16
  S7: nothing of God but God himself. And it sounds so spiritual.
• 29:21
  S7: And there's good things in it that God is our.
• 29:24
  S7: He is our best gift. But, you know, imagine if
• 29:27
  S7: I told that to my wife, you know, don't ask
• 29:30
  S7: me anything more because I'm your best gift. I mean,
• 29:35
  S7: I mean, let's say if this really is true, that
• 29:38
  S7: the husband is the best gift to his wife. Yeah.
• 29:42
  S7: It's like it's what what it does. It separates God's
• 29:45
  S7: doing from his being. And it's very Gnostic. Um, and
• 29:51
  S7: there's a kind of Gnosticism that that pervades prayer. Like
• 29:55
  S7: prayer is sort of, quote, a relationship with God. But,
• 29:58
  S7: but relationships exist in time and space. We do things
• 30:02
  S7: for one another. We listen to one another, we help
• 30:06
  S7: one another. Does that connect a little bit?
• 30:09
  S2: Yeah. Yeah. You know, when we think about dependence on God,
• 30:12
  S2: as you've been talking about kind of like this childlike faith,
• 30:15
  S2: this going to God with, you know, with just the
• 30:18
  S2: very simple stuff. Not wanting a day to be prayed for.
• 30:22
  S2: If we're not careful, it can. That can feel limiting.
• 30:26
  S2: You know, most people do not want to be in
• 30:30
  S2: a place where they are so dependent on someone else.
• 30:33
  S2: Like we, we just that's so uncomfortable for us. Why
• 30:37
  S2: is that the wrong way of thinking about it? Why
• 30:40
  S2: does dependence on God actually expand and not limit your life?
• 30:46
  S7: Well, it's because it brings this Holy Spirit into your life.
• 30:51
  S7: And one of the marks of the spirit is surprise.
• 30:55
  S7: It's just like things happen out of the blue. Your
• 30:58
  S7: attitude changes and it's just he's present in your life.
• 31:02
  S7: Like he's, he's, he's like a, he's out ahead of you. Uh,
• 31:09
  S7: and you begin to anticipate that, uh, and, and wait
• 31:14
  S7: on the spirit. Uh, and and then you create. You know,
• 31:18
  S7: if you can create a culture of prayer in your family,
• 31:22
  S7: you're creating or work or wherever or, you know, among
• 31:26
  S7: your friendships, it just brings the Holy Spirit in.
• 31:29
  S2: The most natural thing for us to do is when
• 31:32
  S2: you talk about a culture of prayer, is that we,
• 31:35
  S2: we ask God to do things for us. You know,
• 31:37
  S2: when we teach our kids to pray in the most
• 31:39
  S2: simple way, right? Is this something that you need? Okay,
• 31:42
  S2: we'll ask God. We're going to ask God to provide
• 31:45
  S2: for us, right? How do we deal with the sometimes
• 31:48
  S2: complicated answers that maybe we like? Okay, well, I asked
• 31:52
  S2: God for this thing or to heal this person, and
• 31:55
  S2: it didn't happen. How do we continue to develop that
• 31:58
  S2: culture of prayer? Releasing the need for the outcome to
• 32:02
  S2: look how we expect.
• 32:04
  S7: You know, that troubles many, many people.
• 32:08
  S2: Yeah.
• 32:08
  S7: And there are complex answers. Obviously, there are times where
• 32:13
  S7: God closes the door. But if I know he's closing
• 32:17
  S7: the door or he's shutting that down, then I can
• 32:20
  S7: begin to watch the story that unfolds. And in our work,
• 32:25
  S7: in our seminars, that that our mission does and our
• 32:28
  S7: prayer seminars and churches, we help people to begin to
• 32:31
  S7: slow down and watch the story of what God's doing
• 32:35
  S7: and be aware of that and watch it. And, and,
• 32:40
  S7: and his will emerges in the story. And you just
• 32:46
  S7: have to, you know, both Jesus and Paul put together
• 32:50
  S7: watch and pray. So a Christian who develops a praying
• 32:55
  S7: life just begins to watch their life. And it he,
• 33:01
  S7: he really does begin to do beyond all that you
• 33:03
  S7: can ask or think. And we buried a daughter seven
• 33:08
  S7: years ago who was 43 and loved the Lord Jesus.
• 33:11
  S7: We have a daughter with disabilities. Uh, we have had
• 33:15
  S7: a lot of suffering in our life, but at every
• 33:17
  S7: point we can see God at work and it, it
• 33:22
  S7: just requires slowing down and asking him. And one, I mean,
• 33:27
  S7: one other thing I would just share with that is, uh,
• 33:31
  S7: on the really hard things that go away, uh, learning
• 33:36
  S7: to lament, like bringing that honest self, uh, to your
• 33:42
  S7: heavenly father. Little kids are like professional mentors. I mean, no,
• 33:49
  S7: you know, and only kind of as adults do you learn,
• 33:52
  S7: you know, that, that you don't take the lament psalm seriously.
• 33:56
  S7: But but they, you know, my God, my God, why
• 33:59
  S7: have you forsaken me? Where you open up your heart
• 34:01
  S7: in grief to God is a statement of, of very
• 34:06
  S7: significant faith.
• 34:08
  S2: Yeah. What is your heart for the listener. I mean,
• 34:12
  S2: you are so clearly rich in faith and you've you've
• 34:15
  S2: lived a lot of life and you've walked this out
• 34:18
  S2: as the as you sense the Holy Spirit leading you,
• 34:21
  S2: even right now. What do you want the person listening
• 34:24
  S2: to hear today?
• 34:28
  S7: You know, this is repeating it just to become like
• 34:31
  S7: a little child. Don't bring your religious self to God.
• 34:37
  S7: You know that acts, adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication helps
• 34:42
  S7: you then great. But but you know, I don't come
• 34:46
  S7: home and adore my wife and then confess my sins
• 34:48
  S7: and then thank her and then ask her, you know,
• 34:51
  S7: she like, she's like, huh, what's wrong with you today?
• 34:55
  S7: You know, like, so so bring your real self to God,
• 34:59
  S7: warts and all. You know, he doesn't, you know, Jesus
• 35:02
  S7: doesn't say, come to me, all you who are learned
• 35:05
  S7: how to concentrate in prayer and I will give you rest. Uh,
• 35:09
  S7: you know, come to me, warts and all. You know,
• 35:11
  S7: come to me. You are weary and heavy laden. So
• 35:14
  S7: bring your weary self to God and he will meet you.
• 35:19
  S2: And then I'm, I'm sure a big part of it
• 35:21
  S2: is the is in the repetition too, right? I mean,
• 35:25
  S2: so you do that today and then you get up
• 35:26
  S2: and you do it tomorrow and maybe you. Yeah. That's right.
• 35:29
  S2: Maybe you feel, you know, we sometimes get driven by
• 35:33
  S2: our feelings. Maybe you feel the earth move and you
• 35:36
  S2: feel heaven open up and then some some days you
• 35:39
  S2: feel like, is anybody listening? But the continuing to show up,
• 35:44
  S2: I would imagine, over the long haul has been a
• 35:47
  S2: big part of your journey.
• 35:49
  S7: Yeah. I mean, are the feelings of our soul rise
• 35:53
  S7: and fall? But but what? What happens if you develop
• 35:56
  S7: a steady faith? Then then you're, you're you're not hunting
• 36:01
  S7: for feelings anymore, but you're actually dialoguing with God. He's
• 36:05
  S7: your helper. And, And he really wants to help you.
• 36:09
  S2: I love it. Thank you so much. Paul Miller, our
• 36:11
  S2: guest this morning. The book is called A Praying Life
• 36:14
  S2: Connecting with God in a Distracting World. Just text connect
• 36:18
  S2: to 800 555 7898, text connect to 805 557898.
• 36:27
  S1: Helping you take the next step in your walk with Jesus.
• 36:30
  S8: God longs for us today to seek him and ask
• 36:34
  S8: him to move in ways that we never could.
• 36:36
  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 36:39
  S2: How easily are you able to identify what it is
• 36:41
  S2: that you are feeling?
• 36:44
  S4: You mean emotion? Emotion at the time?
• 36:47
  S2: Yeah. Do you have a good grasp on what am I?
• 36:52
  S2: How am I feeling right now?
• 36:54
  S4: Yeah. I mean, now expressing it's two different things. I
• 36:57
  S4: can I can throw the dart and I know what
• 37:00
  S4: it is, but yeah. Uh, putting.
• 37:04
  S2: It down, saying it out loud.
• 37:05
  S4: Saying it out loud or sharing it.
• 37:07
  S2: Challenging.
• 37:07
  S4: It's a little more challenging every time.
• 37:09
  S2: I was just looking at this feelings wheel. I've heard
• 37:12
  S2: Carl talk about this.
• 37:13
  S4: Yes he.
• 37:13
  S2: Has. And you know, it's if you've never seen it,
• 37:16
  S2: it's worth looking up because it's interesting because you at
• 37:18
  S2: the very center of the feeling wheel are some of
• 37:22
  S2: the main big word emotions that people would default to happy, sad, surprised, disgusted. Angry. Fearful. Bad.
• 37:32
  S4: Yes.
• 37:33
  S2: But then it breaks down into smaller little segments. So
• 37:38
  S2: let's take happy for, for example.
• 37:42
  S4: Okay.
• 37:43
  S2: Well, what specifically playful. Content. Interested. Proud. Accepted, powerful. Peaceful, trusting, optimistic.
• 37:53
  S4: And then yeah.
• 37:54
  S2: And then it breaks down even further. Okay, so you're
• 37:57
  S2: feeling powerful. Are you feeling courageous? Creative? Are you feeling
• 38:03
  S2: loving or thankful? sensitive. Hopeful. Inspired. Curious. Joyful.
• 38:11
  S4: Maybe I'll change my answer now I'm like, oh.
• 38:15
  S2: We don't want to fixate on how we feel, but
• 38:19
  S2: how we feel shouldn't be ignored. And I think you
• 38:24
  S2: can go through seasons of life where you're on the
• 38:28
  S2: other side of that feelings wheel, or you're not feeling
• 38:32
  S2: like happy or surprised, even you're more in like the angry, fearful, bad.
• 38:40
  S3: I think those ones are especially important to know why
• 38:42
  S3: you're feeling those things.
• 38:44
  S2: Like, why are you, why are you feeling this your
• 38:48
  S2: feelings guy. Jonathan.
• 38:50
  S3: Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, I'd say generally I'm
• 38:54
  S3: a pretty feelings guy. I, I remember, so this is
• 38:58
  S3: what it's like growing up in a house the youngest
• 39:00
  S3: of four boys. Okay. Uh, I don't remember. I was
• 39:04
  S3: like eight, so I don't remember why I was crying,
• 39:06
  S3: but I was crying about something. And I was walking
• 39:10
  S3: down the hall and I passed my brother, who's who
• 39:12
  S3: was ten closest in age to me, and he said,
• 39:15
  S3: why are you crying? And I said, just leave me alone.
• 39:18
  S3: And he said, why are you crying? And I said,
• 39:20
  S3: shut up. And then and then he punched me in
• 39:24
  S3: the arm and said, tell me why you're crying. And
• 39:27
  S3: I said, well, that now. I said, that's the reason now.
• 39:30
  S3: And then I left.
• 39:31
  S4: And that's.
• 39:33
  S2: Classic.
• 39:33
  S4: Classic picture of yeah.
• 39:35
  S3: Oh yeah, big brother. But no, I'd say, I'd say generally, yes,
• 39:38
  S3: I'm a, I'm a pretty feely guy.
• 39:40
  S2: You're a feely guy. Yeah. Thanks for admitting that.
• 39:43
  S3: Yeah that's fine. I don't I don't mind it.
• 39:45
  S2: Well coming up we are going to talk about what
• 39:47
  S2: to do with some of those difficult emotions from a
• 39:50
  S2: guy who has lived it. He's maybe a feelings guy too.
• 39:54
  S2: What do you go do when you go through seasons
• 39:57
  S2: of sadness or even depression?
• 40:01
  S1: The gospel changes everything.
• 40:04
  S2: Where else am I gonna find peace, joy, eternal life
• 40:07
  S2: not found in anyone else.
• 40:10
  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 40:12
  S2: Can you experience joy apart from God? And what happens
• 40:17
  S2: when you are in Christ? But you don't seem to
• 40:20
  S2: have much joy? I'm gonna give you quick answers to
• 40:24
  S2: either of those questions, but are a good starting point
• 40:26
  S2: for our guest, Nate Pickowicz, joining us right now. He's
• 40:29
  S2: the author of the book Overcoming the Darkness Biblical Help
• 40:33
  S2: for Spiritual Depression. Let's start to unpack with, can you
• 40:37
  S2: experience joy apart from God?
• 40:40
  S9: Well, I think when we talk about what joy really is,
• 40:43
  S9: I think there's what's called a common grace of God,
• 40:46
  S9: where we can be happy in our circumstances. We get
• 40:49
  S9: the blessings of life. But I think when we're really
• 40:51
  S9: talking about what true joy really is, the purpose for
• 40:55
  S9: which we were created, communion with God, we have to
• 40:58
  S9: really be in fellowship with him. He's the one who
• 41:01
  S9: produces all eternal joy that's only found in Christ. So, uh, yeah,
• 41:06
  S9: I think there are great things about this life, but ultimately,
• 41:09
  S9: we are meant to find our source of comfort and
• 41:11
  S9: joy in him.
• 41:12
  S2: And many people wrestle with, oh, boy, I feel like
• 41:16
  S2: I've lost any ability to feel joy. And, you know,
• 41:19
  S2: whether you have a clinical diagnosis of depression or it's
• 41:23
  S2: just a season of really, really hard emotions. Have you
• 41:28
  S2: experienced this yourself, Nate? Obviously, you've written the book Overcoming
• 41:32
  S2: the Darkness. What does this look like in your own journey?
• 41:35
  S9: Yeah, I've wrestled with this for years. I mean, I
• 41:38
  S9: when I was a kid, I was always kind of
• 41:40
  S9: an anxious kid. I grew up going to church with
• 41:42
  S9: my family, but just really wrestled with these feelings of
• 41:46
  S9: worry and anxiety, fear, and even got into my teens
• 41:50
  S9: and 20s some pretty serious bouts of depression. And so
• 41:54
  S9: this is very personal to me. Um, I did not
• 41:57
  S9: initially set out to write a book about it. I
• 41:59
  S9: was really just trying to work this through for myself
• 42:01
  S9: as a believer. And then the more I began to
• 42:04
  S9: study scripture, it just became clear that I not only
• 42:07
  S9: was I finding answers in the Word of God, but
• 42:09
  S9: I wanted to help other people work through it too.
• 42:12
  S9: I think there's there's help to be had for us
• 42:15
  S9: who are seeking to find comfort and strength in the Lord.
• 42:17
  S9: So that's kind of the desire is, is to help
• 42:20
  S9: other people to work through this. And I think God's
• 42:24
  S9: word does have a lot to say about how to
• 42:26
  S9: battle this.
• 42:27
  S2: So let's talk about it because a lot of times
• 42:29
  S2: these conversations sometimes become difficult or even controversial in the
• 42:34
  S2: church because we maybe wrongly assume that the only place
• 42:37
  S2: to look is in, you know, this psychology books or
• 42:41
  S2: in the, the clinical counseling setting, all of which have
• 42:45
  S2: their place. But sometimes we can go, okay, well, but
• 42:47
  S2: we want to go to the Word of God. What
• 42:49
  S2: is the Word of God say? What do you say?
• 42:52
  S9: Yeah. It's interesting because I agree with you that it's
• 42:55
  S9: sort of a minefield out there. And I think talking
• 42:57
  S9: about this in the church has become stigmatized quite a bit.
• 43:01
  S9: And I think it's important that we do talk about it.
• 43:03
  S9: But it's interesting to note that when you read the Bible,
• 43:07
  S9: the Bible always seems to assign spiritual value or spiritual diagnoses,
• 43:13
  S9: so to speak, on things like anxiety, fear, worry, depression.
• 43:18
  S9: The Bible treats these as spiritual realities. Now we also
• 43:21
  S9: recognize that God creates us as whole people, our bodies,
• 43:25
  S9: our minds, our hearts. Everything is connected. So it is
• 43:28
  S9: hard to figure out how much of this is a physical,
• 43:31
  S9: you know, mental thing. How much of this is a
• 43:33
  S9: spiritual thing that can be challenging? But I do think
• 43:36
  S9: that if you're able to apply scriptures, treatments and scriptures cures,
• 43:41
  S9: you'll find that it really does make a difference. And
• 43:44
  S9: I think my opinion is it's a lot more spiritual
• 43:47
  S9: than we tend to give it credit for.
• 43:48
  S2: So what are some of the causes then of, of
• 43:51
  S2: spiritual depression?
• 43:53
  S9: You know, if there are problems, physical Problems. It's important
• 43:57
  S9: that you get treated for that. I mean, sometimes there
• 43:59
  S9: could be dietary things, there could be physiological problems. So
• 44:03
  S9: some of those things can play a part in it.
• 44:05
  S9: But I think a lot of times we find that
• 44:07
  S9: there are lots of causes. Sometimes you're just in a
• 44:11
  S9: season where you're just in calamity. You know, when someone
• 44:14
  S9: in your life passes away and you're going through extreme grief,
• 44:18
  S9: that can obviously drive you to those places. Sometimes physical ailments, sickness,
• 44:23
  S9: disease can cause it relational strife. And then there's always
• 44:26
  S9: the issues of sin. I mean, you know, David struggled
• 44:29
  S9: with sin in Psalm 51. And so his depression was
• 44:33
  S9: brought on by his sin problem. So I think there's
• 44:35
  S9: a lot of reasons why this happens. And I think
• 44:38
  S9: part of our challenge is to try to navigate through, well,
• 44:41
  S9: why do I feel this way? You know, why? Why
• 44:44
  S9: am I so downcast? And what do I do? So yeah,
• 44:47
  S9: I can come from a lot of a lot of places.
• 44:49
  S2: You mentioned, David, what other examples in scripture do we
• 44:53
  S2: see of of faithful individuals who went through deep sorrow,
• 44:58
  S2: maybe even depression.
• 45:00
  S9: Sure. I mean, obviously the most classic example is Jobe,
• 45:03
  S9: who pretty much had everything that could happen to a person,
• 45:06
  S9: happened to a person. He went through just a bout
• 45:09
  S9: of intense grief and sorrow. Even Moses, I think about
• 45:13
  S9: Moses as an example of that. He was dealing with
• 45:15
  S9: an obstinate people. He was dealing with relationships and people
• 45:19
  S9: who were just miserable to deal with. And it drove
• 45:22
  S9: him to the point where he was despairing of his
• 45:23
  S9: own life. Uh, you think about the apostle Paul. Um,
• 45:27
  S9: you think about all kinds of people in the scriptures
• 45:29
  S9: who do have these adverse circumstances, and for one reason
• 45:33
  S9: or another, they're just driven to a bad place, and
• 45:35
  S9: they have to turn their hearts and turn their minds
• 45:39
  S9: back to the Lord to find their source of spiritual healing.
• 45:42
  S9: So yeah, I was surprised at how many people in
• 45:44
  S9: the scriptures really do struggle with this. And so this
• 45:47
  S9: is a relatively common thing for believers.
• 45:50
  S2: How important is it to kind of examine our own
• 45:53
  S2: hearts to try to determine the cause. I mean, you've heard,
• 45:57
  S2: you know, we want to be careful. We don't want
• 45:59
  S2: to be navel gazing. You know, you can you can
• 46:01
  S2: drive yourself crazy trying to be too introspective. But what's
• 46:06
  S2: a healthy level of introspection where we're looking and even self-diagnosing. Hey,
• 46:10
  S2: what's going on in my heart?
• 46:12
  S9: Yeah. I think it's important that we do do it.
• 46:14
  S9: I mean, I think your caution is important that we don't,
• 46:17
  S9: we don't just spend all of our time just wallowing
• 46:20
  S9: in it, uh, that we do have to get moving
• 46:22
  S9: and live our lives. But I do think, I mean,
• 46:24
  S9: the Bible keeps on telling us, you know, to examine ourselves,
• 46:28
  S9: to test ourselves. I mean, in Psalm 42, which is
• 46:31
  S9: probably one of my favorite songs to deal with this problem,
• 46:34
  S9: David begins by saying, why are you downcast, O my soul?
• 46:37
  S9: You know, he looks inward and says, what's wrong with
• 46:40
  S9: you self and and works through that. So I think
• 46:43
  S9: asking those questions, and I think even really beginning in
• 46:46
  S9: prayer and saying, Lord, I need help. Uh, you know,
• 46:48
  S9: starting and asking God, you know, to help you work
• 46:51
  S9: through and, if there are spiritual problems to convict you
• 46:55
  S9: of those and help you through those. If it really
• 46:57
  S9: is a physical thing or if there are other factors
• 46:59
  S9: to work through that. But I think not just saying, oh,
• 47:02
  S9: this is this is how I am and just settling
• 47:04
  S9: in that, but really trying to work toward I want
• 47:07
  S9: to be more spiritually healthy. I want to feel better
• 47:10
  S9: in the Lord. I want to be closer to God.
• 47:12
  S9: I think those are really admirable goals to pursue.
• 47:16
  S2: As you think about your own journey towards healing and wholeness.
• 47:20
  S2: What practices or disciplines have you found to be helpful?
• 47:24
  S2: And the flip side, what doesn't help? Maybe what that's
• 47:28
  S2: been suggested actually is not helpful.
• 47:32
  S9: I mean, I tend to go to what is not helpful.
• 47:34
  S9: I can tell you my iPhone does not help any
• 47:37
  S9: of these things at all. Social media. My goodness. No,
• 47:40
  S9: but I do find what's helpful. I mean, honestly, it's
• 47:43
  S9: the normal disciplines of the Christian life. You know, starting
• 47:46
  S9: your day in prayer and in the Word of God,
• 47:49
  S9: you know, starting by By putting in what is from
• 47:52
  S9: the Lord into your mind and into your heart. That's
• 47:55
  S9: a good start. I think a healthy level of exercise,
• 47:59
  S9: you know, goal setting, just kind of keeping moving, uh,
• 48:02
  S9: you know, relationships, trying to be active in your church
• 48:05
  S9: and be connected to other people. I think depression and anxiety, uh,
• 48:09
  S9: those are very isolating things. They pull you away from people.
• 48:13
  S9: So I find that, you know, when I'm able to
• 48:15
  S9: talk to others, my family, my friends, that makes a
• 48:18
  S9: huge difference. And I think really just seeking the Lord's will, like,
• 48:22
  S9: you know, recognizing this is something I'm struggling with and
• 48:25
  S9: just being very honest before God and recognizing this is
• 48:28
  S9: a real thing, but I just need the help. And
• 48:31
  S9: I think praying and seeking his will in that. So
• 48:34
  S9: those are just some of the things I think that
• 48:36
  S9: come to mind that I've employed in my own life
• 48:38
  S9: that's been helpful and hopefully helpful for other people as well.
• 48:41
  S2: Nate Pickowicz with us this morning. The book is called
• 48:45
  S2: Overcoming the Darkness. I want to get you a key
• 48:47
  S2: word so that you can get more Just text overcome
• 48:50
  S2: to 805 557898. Just text that one word overcome to
• 48:55
  S2: 805 557898.
• 48:59
  S1: This is Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 49:03
  S2: Well, sometimes you have to really look at the big why.
• 49:05
  S2: You have to boil it all down to what really matters, right?
• 49:09
  S2: Because there's a lot of things that you can do
• 49:11
  S2: on any given day, but a big part of life
• 49:14
  S2: is prioritizing. Yeah.
• 49:16
  S3: Right. And if you don't know why, you're going to
• 49:18
  S3: put everything in the wrong order and your life's gonna
• 49:21
  S3: look kind of messy.
• 49:22
  S2: I've got a special guest. It's an honor to have
• 49:24
  S2: him joining us this morning. Uh, Tim Goeglein, he is
• 49:27
  S2: vice president of external and government relations for focus on
• 49:30
  S2: the family. His latest book is called What Really Matters
• 49:33
  S2: Restoring a Legacy of Faith, family, and Freedom. Tim, you
• 49:38
  S2: have done a lot. You've been a special assistant to
• 49:41
  S2: President George W Bush, a deputy director of the white
• 49:44
  S2: House Office of Public Liaison. You've served in government. You've
• 49:48
  S2: served in ministry first before we get to the book.
• 49:52
  S2: How did God call you out of darkness into light?
• 49:55
  S10: I love that question, and I'm honored that it's first.
• 49:58
  S10: I grew up in a Christian home, but I promise
• 50:01
  S10: and pledge to you. I was on a Greyhound bus
• 50:04
  S10: from my hometown of Fort Wayne, Indiana to Toledo, Ohio.
• 50:09
  S10: And I don't mind saying, when I got on the bus,
• 50:12
  S10: I was one person. When I got off the bus,
• 50:14
  S10: I was another. That was the moment where I overwhelmingly
• 50:18
  S10: knew that I was committing my life and categorically, to
• 50:22
  S10: be an ambassador of Jesus Christ. And in the ten
• 50:26
  S10: years that I worked in the Senate, the eight years
• 50:28
  S10: that the white House, all the 18 years here at
• 50:32
  S10: focus on the family as our vice president of government
• 50:35
  S10: and external relations in Washington, D.C. all of my professional
• 50:39
  S10: life lived and worked inside the Beltway. You understand that
• 50:44
  S10: as a Christian, you are overwhelmingly the minority. So you
• 50:48
  S10: have to really be able, with conviction and with grace
• 50:52
  S10: and goodwill to defend what really matters. And so that's
• 50:55
  S10: the entire narrative of the book, but it's a reflection
• 50:58
  S10: of my testimony and my life in Christ.
• 51:01
  S2: You know, when we talk about what really matters, and
• 51:04
  S2: I know that you have an interesting vantage point here,
• 51:07
  S2: it can be easily easy to start confusing one for
• 51:10
  S2: the other, right? I mean, because what really matters we
• 51:13
  S2: know is our relationship with Jesus is our call to
• 51:16
  S2: go and to preach the gospel. And sometimes politics can
• 51:21
  S2: help and sometimes politics can seem to make that more confusing.
• 51:25
  S2: I'm sure you've encountered this sort of tension over your years.
• 51:30
  S10: I could not agree more. And beautifully said. And in fact,
• 51:34
  S10: I was speaking at a well known, very elite New
• 51:37
  S10: England College two years ago in the academic year for
• 51:41
  S10: focus on the family. And a young woman said to
• 51:44
  S10: me after my remarks, she said. Why does the political
• 51:47
  S10: class seem to talk about everything except for what really matters?
• 51:52
  S10: And I thought to myself, that's the title of the book,
• 51:55
  S10: because the political class, they will talk about borders and
• 51:59
  S10: the war and taxes and as well they should. But
• 52:03
  S10: the institutions that really matter, what really matters. The narrative
• 52:07
  S10: of this book is marriage, family, parenting, human life, religious liberty, conscience, rights,
• 52:15
  S10: parental rights, all in the foundation of Jesus Christ. That's
• 52:19
  S10: what really matters. And if we're going to have a
• 52:22
  S10: true spiritual and cultural renewal in our country, that's where
• 52:27
  S10: the discussion needs to start.
• 52:29
  S2: So let's talk about that. What do you we pray
• 52:32
  S2: for awakening. We pray for revival. What does that look
• 52:36
  S2: like from your standpoint?
• 52:38
  S10: Well, I believe categorically that we need a monumental work
• 52:43
  S10: of reclamation and revival in the United States. And so
• 52:48
  S10: what I wanted to write about, and which I do
• 52:50
  S10: write about, and I hope people get and read and
• 52:54
  S10: enjoy the book as one of the tools in the
• 52:56
  S10: toolbox for the kind of regeneration and restoration that we're
• 53:00
  S10: speaking about. I write at length about the restoration of marriage,
• 53:04
  S10: the restoration of the family, the restoration of the American male.
• 53:10
  S10: This is one of the chapters that has gotten a
• 53:12
  S10: lot of attention with this new book. I also did
• 53:15
  S10: a wonderful chapter called Restoring a Well-Ordered Society. How are
• 53:21
  S10: you supposed to live? What constitutes the life well lived?
• 53:25
  S10: These are kind of the spaces and the chapters that
• 53:28
  S10: I write about along the lines of restoration. It's very
• 53:32
  S10: important in the time that we're in, not to be
• 53:35
  S10: discouraged or despairing because it negates the hope of Jesus Christ.
• 53:40
  S2: You said the chapter that's getting a lot of attention.
• 53:43
  S2: Restoring the American male. Speak to that a little bit more.
• 53:46
  S10: It's sobering and it's good news. The sobering side is
• 53:51
  S10: that American men now account for three out of every
• 53:55
  S10: four suicides or drug overdoses. And get this, approximately 15%
• 54:02
  S10: say they have no friends. I mean, there is a
• 54:05
  S10: lot going on. Uh, you know, in that space of
• 54:09
  S10: the need to restore the American male and the idea
• 54:13
  S10: of masculinity and femininity. But here is the silver lining.
• 54:17
  S10: And I think it's very important that American men 18
• 54:22
  S10: to 35, increasingly, overwhelmingly, they tell reliable people they want
• 54:28
  S10: to be married. They want to have children. They want
• 54:31
  S10: to be part of a continuous faith community. I mean,
• 54:35
  S10: these are very good things. The challenge in the same
• 54:38
  S10: demographic is that we have millions of American men who
• 54:42
  S10: are not working. They're not looking for a job. They're
• 54:45
  S10: not in school. They're not looking to be in school.
• 54:48
  S10: Demographers say that kind of prospect is unmarriageable. So we
• 54:53
  S10: have millions of American women who do want to be married,
• 54:56
  S10: but they're looking for the continuity and stability in marriage
• 55:00
  S10: and children that they need from a reliable American man.
• 55:05
  S10: And I think it's a big part of what really matters.
• 55:08
  S10: And this is one of the tools in the toolbox.
• 55:10
  S10: A key part of our restoration.
• 55:13
  S2: So what do you think restoration looks like? I mean,
• 55:16
  S2: obviously there's a there are a lot of ways that
• 55:19
  S2: you could attack this, but what do you think is
• 55:22
  S2: part of the solution of helping men become more connected
• 55:25
  S2: to community, helping them become gainfully employed and not just
• 55:30
  S2: getting a job, but having a desire and a passion
• 55:33
  S2: for a greater purpose.
• 55:35
  S10: The answer is fleet. We have to have an unshakable
• 55:40
  S10: faith and to impress upon the rising generation of young
• 55:45
  S10: Americans that it is not money, but the family that
• 55:49
  S10: is the foundation of our public life. And as the
• 55:53
  S10: family has become weaker, every structure upon that foundation has
• 55:58
  S10: become weaker. And the corollary is true that as family marriage, parents,
• 56:04
  S10: as it becomes stronger and they become stronger, the nation
• 56:08
  S10: becomes stronger. I think that we need to say that
• 56:12
  S10: marriage orients men and women toward the future because it
• 56:17
  S10: asks them, you know, not just to commit to each other,
• 56:21
  S10: but to plan and to earn and to save and
• 56:23
  S10: to devote themselves to advancing their children's prospects. It seems
• 56:29
  S10: to me that in my book, what really matters, that
• 56:31
  S10: that is that kind of golden narrative, not any kind
• 56:35
  S10: of government view downward, but from an organic and a
• 56:39
  S10: role of the church upward. That's the kind of place
• 56:42
  S10: that we'll have restoration.
• 56:44
  S2: Tim Goeglein with us right now coming up. Let's talk
• 56:47
  S2: about the elephant in the room, no pun intended. The polarization,
• 56:53
  S2: the current political climate that we're living in can make
• 56:56
  S2: even conversations like this one feel loaded. How do we
• 57:00
  S2: take steps forward to unity, even within the church, as
• 57:04
  S2: we pursue what really matters more coming up here on
• 57:07
  S2: Carl and Crew.
• 57:08
  S1: Tune in whenever you like. Check out the Carl and
• 57:11
  S1: Crew podcast wherever you like to stream.
• 57:14
  S2: His latest book is called What Really Matters Restoring a
• 57:16
  S2: Legacy of Faith, family, and Freedom. His name is Tim Goeglein.
• 57:20
  S2: He is with us right now, president of External and
• 57:22
  S2: Government Relations for focus on the family. You have worked
• 57:25
  S2: for decades in government and in ministry. You know, we
• 57:30
  S2: have become so polarized that even conversations like the one
• 57:33
  S2: that we are having can feel loaded for people. Words
• 57:37
  S2: like faith, family, and freedom can mean a lot of
• 57:41
  S2: different things to different people, even within the church. How
• 57:44
  S2: do we take steps forward toward unity when man, it
• 57:48
  S2: is polarized and it feels like you are dodging landmines
• 57:52
  S2: as soon as you even bring up the conversation.
• 57:54
  S10: Well, I couldn't agree more. And I'm an inveterate optimist. First,
• 57:58
  S10: I believe that in the Christian life, discouragement and despair
• 58:02
  S10: is a sin because it negates the hope of Jesus Christ.
• 58:06
  S10: And I think that we can, in fact, have a
• 58:08
  S10: hopeful way forward, and that the church and Christians can
• 58:12
  S10: play a very large role in bridging this divide of
• 58:16
  S10: polarization in our nation. And I think that it begins
• 58:19
  S10: with a realization that a complete overhaul of society will
• 58:24
  S10: not happen overnight. I mean, just as long as a
• 58:27
  S10: series of small compromises got us way off course. It
• 58:31
  S10: seems to me it's going to require a long series
• 58:34
  S10: of small corrections to help point us back in the
• 58:37
  S10: right direction. And I think one of the things that
• 58:40
  S10: helps us address polarization is that in one sense, it's
• 58:44
  S10: not about creating a Christian nation. It's about returning to
• 58:48
  S10: the things that made this nation stable, secure, and free.
• 58:52
  S10: You know, in the first place. And these are the
• 58:54
  S10: things that benefit everyone in a pluralistic society, whether they
• 58:59
  S10: be men and women of faith or, you know, people
• 59:01
  S10: of no faith at all. Uh, faith has got to
• 59:05
  S10: be the foundation. We are Christians. We are Christ followers.
• 59:09
  S10: When we talk about what really matters, it's rooted in faith.
• 59:13
  S10: But it's a large, complex continental nation of 340 million souls.
• 59:19
  S10: So if we're going to talk about restoration and addressing polarization,
• 59:23
  S10: it seems to me we have to begin with the
• 59:25
  S10: prospects of these kinds.
• 59:27
  S2: Tim Goeglein with us right now. I'm curious, in your
• 59:31
  S2: own conversations, you know, people always say the things that
• 59:34
  S2: you should avoid talking about are religion and politics, and
• 59:38
  S2: you're in that world. So I'm sure you talk a
• 59:41
  S2: lot at the dinner table and at family reunions. How
• 59:44
  S2: do you navigate when people maybe see things differently than you?
• 59:48
  S10: You know, I really am more honored by that question than,
• 59:52
  S10: you know, because it goes to the heart of my
• 59:53
  S10: own vocation, which is I am really comfortable speaking in
• 59:57
  S10: large auditoriums of people who agree with us. And I'm
• 1:00:01
  S10: equally comfortable speaking in large auditoriums with people who profoundly
• 1:00:05
  S10: disagree with us. And I think it begins with the
• 1:00:08
  S10: idea of whatever we say, salt and light. I really
• 1:00:13
  S10: believe firmly, after 40 years of doing this in the
• 1:00:16
  S10: public square, that it's got to be civil, it's got
• 1:00:20
  S10: to be magnanimous, it's got to be gracious, and we
• 1:00:23
  S10: have to do something that is increasingly old fashioned, which
• 1:00:27
  S10: is we have to listen. You know, Doctor Dobson, the
• 1:00:31
  S10: founder of focus on the family, used to say that
• 1:00:34
  S10: conversation is like tossing a baseball. When you have the baseball,
• 1:00:38
  S10: you've got the conversation. But when you toss the baseball
• 1:00:42
  S10: and the other person has the ball, let him or
• 1:00:45
  S10: her say completely and categorically what it is they believe.
• 1:00:50
  S10: And this kind of respectful dialogue, I believe, very firmly
• 1:00:55
  S10: moves us a far way toward our goal of addressing polarization,
• 1:01:00
  S10: even on issues that can be, you know, sometimes spicy.
• 1:01:04
  S2: I put a post up on social media, which I
• 1:01:07
  S2: don't often do. I might post a couple times in
• 1:01:11
  S2: a year, but, you know, there were some things that
• 1:01:14
  S2: I had started to see that I just wanted to
• 1:01:16
  S2: call attention to. I was seeing, you know, a lot
• 1:01:19
  S2: of language around like dividing people into groups of us
• 1:01:24
  S2: versus them and kind of a lacking capacity to feel
• 1:01:28
  S2: empathy or compassion for people who we put in the
• 1:01:32
  S2: Them category across the board that this is this is
• 1:01:36
  S2: who we are. And that category over there, there's no
• 1:01:39
  S2: compassion and there's no empathy. And there's also a lack
• 1:01:43
  S2: of genuine friendship with people who think differently than you.
• 1:01:47
  S2: And you see people like cutting off contact even within
• 1:01:50
  S2: families because people are on maybe have a would vote differently.
• 1:01:56
  S2: What do you say to that? I mean, are we
• 1:01:57
  S2: approaching idolatry when it becomes like a us and them
• 1:02:02
  S2: kind of dynamic?
• 1:02:03
  S10: You know, I'm really glad you said that because E
• 1:02:06
  S10: pluribus unum. You know, this is our national motto and
• 1:02:10
  S10: it's about unity, but it has never, ever been. I mean,
• 1:02:14
  S10: from the dawn 250 years ago of the birth of
• 1:02:18
  S10: our nation, July 4th, 1776, at about 3:00 in the afternoon.
• 1:02:23
  S10: But there was never a moment in all of American
• 1:02:26
  S10: history when all of the people said, we completely agree.
• 1:02:30
  S10: That really is not the case. And so from the
• 1:02:33
  S10: very beginning, we have had to find a way to
• 1:02:37
  S10: adequately navigate the shoals of disagreement. And I think we
• 1:02:41
  S10: have to ultimately be comfortable that there are people who
• 1:02:44
  S10: hold a worldview that is different than ours. But just
• 1:02:48
  S10: because they hold a different worldview does not mean they're
• 1:02:51
  S10: the enemy or the adversary. Quite the opposite. And I
• 1:02:54
  S10: think we learn from our Lord's example that it's quite
• 1:02:57
  S10: the opposite. You know, we are to sit down and
• 1:03:00
  S10: to actually engage with people who disagree with us and
• 1:03:04
  S10: often profoundly, I believe good things actually can come routinely
• 1:03:09
  S10: from such engagements.
• 1:03:11
  S2: Tim Goeglein with us this morning. The latest book is
• 1:03:13
  S2: called What Really Matters Restoring a Legacy of Faith, family,
• 1:03:17
  S2: and Freedom. Text legacy will send you the details. Just
• 1:03:20
  S2: text legacy to 805 557898, text legacy 805 557898.