Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Dylan Rees about his choice of Dragonfire (1/3)

Transcript

Talks to Dylan Rees about his choice of Dragonfire (1/3) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump. Pen Knife for doing quicker,
• 0:35
  quicker, quicker. Welcome back to A Hamster with a
• 0:41
  Blump and Knife, the Doctor Who commentary podcast I am here
• 0:47
  with. In person.
• 0:49
  In real life, IRL, as the kids say.
• 0:52
  Somebody who everyone knows recently because he's.
• 0:54
  Dominated my schedules. Mr. Dylan Reece say hello.
• 0:57
  Hello everybody. I'm here with Joe in my flat.
• 1:00
  It's all very surreal. I'm not used to having two
• 1:02
  people in this room. Usually it's just a distance
• 1:05
  voice on a zoom, but here we are.
• 1:07
  We're in an Aladdin's cave. Of Doctor Who memorabilia behind
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  me. I've got the arm from Turbinator
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  2. Yes, a Ghostbusters trap.
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  There's. Also an incense burner the
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  entire. A collection of myth makers.
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  Yeah, I mean, who else's house would you be at?
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  I'll. Turn this one off.
• 1:25
  Hang on. And Dylan, why have we gathered
• 1:28
  today? We gathered here today to watch
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  one of my favorite Doctor Who stories of all time, Dragon
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  Fire. Baffling.
• 1:37
  Will you please explain why that is?
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  I mean, it's a story of great ambition and it's on the cusp of
• 1:43
  change of Doctor Who. I mean, the lazy sentiment is
• 1:47
  that Doctor Who gets good after this, but at all at the end of
• 1:50
  this. But actually it got good right
• 1:53
  from about well, right from time in the Rani really in terms of
• 1:57
  the McCoy era. And it does some interesting
• 1:59
  stuff, but this is it really starting to find its feet and
• 2:02
  it's visually interesting, ambitious, Some might say too
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  ambitious, but it's still the show firing on all cylinders,
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  trying a really hard. When I reviewed Season 24 for
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  the 9:00 Will Be Praised, I declared this The week is still
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  the season Well, but upon reflection I was.
• 2:24
  I was sort of thinking about this another couple the weeks
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  leading up to this. I think I know every bloody line
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  of dialogue in this story. You know, I'm not.
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  I know every performance. So something about this story is
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  stuck in my head. It's heavily quotable.
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  It is heavily always the first Ian Briggs script of two.
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  First of two. Do you think this is the
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  superior? Of the two, no.
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  I think Fenrich definitely holds that that title.
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  But it is. It is just it's bubbling with
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  exciting ideas and interesting concepts that may not all quite
• 2:54
  work, but it's a lot of fun. You've always found the idea of
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  going to a freezer center in space exciting, then?
• 3:01
  Yes, exactly. Well, I can't help but just roam
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  around Iceland every now. We're going.
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  Good night, Teddy. Skipping around just as a little
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  girl and but I live in east London so that sort of thing is
• 3:15
  fine. Obviously we're seeing in ice,
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  we're seeing out mail. We've got the return appearance.
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  Of glitz. I think some people would say
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  this is where McCoy. Really.
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  Sort of beds in, yeah. He finds his feet.
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  I think he's got the performance like he's trying different
• 3:30
  things in the first three stories of the season.
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  But here he is really, he's really found his feet, I think.
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  And that that doctor that you get in survival or the curse of
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  Fenrich or remembrance is very much presence here.
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  As some dark bonus in this story, isn't it?
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  I've been quoting to you for the last week.
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  The sequence he has with Bellage, I'll try not to do it.
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  During the recording, you've heard you've heard it enough.
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  I mean, everything that comes out Patricia Queen's mouth is
• 3:56
  instantly memorable. She's pissed, you know, while
• 4:00
  she's recording this, I think. I mean, have you seen that
• 4:02
  interview? With her, it's amazing.
• 4:03
  You. Know at one point she goes.
• 4:07
  I'm not going to tell you how old I am.
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  Look on the interweb. That's what it's there for.
• 4:13
  What's her name now? Dame?
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  She's. She's got her.
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  I'm not sure. She's just a Dame, but she's
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  she's married into money. She's a Dame in her mind, but.
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  She's got several wings in her house, I believe.
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  Yes. Lucky her.
• 4:27
  OK. One more question then before we
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  jump into episode one, because I think a lot of people will say
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  there is a dramatic upturn in quality between Dragon Fire and
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  Remembrance of the Daleks. Would you agree with that?
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  I think there's an upturn in production values.
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  I think they learn how to work with the resources they've got.
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  I think performance wise people are still honing their
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  performances and things. But actually, does this look too
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  different to the Happiness Patrol?
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  No. I think this looks better than
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  the Happiness Patrol, but the only difference with the
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  Happiness Patrol is it's sold as it's supposed to look cheap and
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  a bit naff, whereas this is very much like it's overreaching.
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  So I think it's the production values rather than the actual
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  era itself. I travel with Jonathan Turner is
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  he always does these ambitious stories at the end of the season
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  when the keys dry. Yeah, it's a weird choice, but
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  then you always want your season finale to be big.
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  But then also, they're just too short of cash anyway.
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  I remember in a Doctor Who magazine there was a popular
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  media critic at the time, and Doctor Who was coming in under
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  fire this season. Like nobody was really saying
• 5:37
  good things about it. Including those high up at the
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  BBC. And that critic said, I enjoyed
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  episode one so back so much. I taped it and went back and
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  watched it again. So I think the time was turning.
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  It was, it was because you've got an interesting lead, you've
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  got interesting leads and it's just it's trying something new
• 5:56
  and it's reinventing itself. 24 seasons in after everybody had
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  written it off on the last season, I often wonder, had this
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  season come instead of trial. While I know there's issues with
• 6:07
  this season, whether it would have had quite the same
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  reception as trial did at the time, because at least this is
• 6:13
  different from most doctors that's come before it.
• 6:15
  I. Can't.
• 6:17
  I think trial's a little bit underrated as well.
• 6:18
  Yeah, it is. It is, absolutely.
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  Especially if something like mind warp.
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  Unforgettable. Oh OK, but look in your face.
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  You're not found on that one. Have you done Mind warp here?
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  Oh, we'll do Mind Warp one day. I just signed you up to the
• 6:31
  5000. As long.
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  As we can have a lovely pub lunch again and I can poke.
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  Around in your room a bit more, you can poke around.
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  Whatever you. Want remember, I'm right next to
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  you. Well, look.
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  Shall we press play on episode one?
• 6:46
  Let's press play on episode one. Actually, use your press play on
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  the thing as well. I'm not used to being in someone
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  else's hands like this in 54321 Go.
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  Off we go. Joe, do you think I'm a contrary
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  bugger if I say that season 24 is my favorite Syvesta McCoy
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  season? I think it is contrary, but it
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  depends the sort of Doctor Who you like.
• 7:12
  I like it a bit. Can.
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  Well then, you in for a treat, my friend.
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  But I also like it a bit dark. And actually, underneath all the
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  light entertainment, there's some dark ideas going on.
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  Yeah, there are, absolutely. I mean, this is about someone
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  who's been in prison for life away from, you know, his, his
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  lover was murdered. He's a terrorist.
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  He may be in a freezer center, but you know.
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  If only he'd got the latest edition of the Ordinance Survey
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  of the Universe. He would have known that.
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  His plan? Was destroyed, yes.
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  He didn't think that's after ten 5000 years.
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  Is. It there are a few.
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  Moments on that in this. Story where I'm like um.
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  Maybe there's just. Needed one more turn.
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  Yeah, one more pass. Look how big this set is.
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  S and not. They're using the whole studio
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  there, aren't they huge? So I think this is indicative of
• 8:00
  the problems. Because you're right, it's vast
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  and there's loads of dry ice, so it looks cold, but then at the
• 8:06
  back there's some weird sort of fairy curtains straight there
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  trying to suggest that it's ice. Yeah, yeah.
• 8:11
  I mean, the biggest problem they have in this is the ice of the
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  snow. They should have really
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  imprisoned them on a lukewarm planet.
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  That was much more achievable on a BBC budget.
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  Have you ever been specially selected as a mercenary to?
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  Deliver fear and terror. Wherever you go, no, no, I
• 8:26
  haven't. We've never had all the emotions
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  frozen at me that now he's from casualty, isn't he?
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  This guy. He was big layer, wasn't he?
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  Yeah, he was like, well. Thought we'd BBC to yeah, but
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  like when I came to this on video in sort of 1994 or
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  something, he was like the the main star of Casualty at that
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  point. I think you probably got
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  potentially the best villain performance of this.
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  With Edward Peels of the of the Season of the 80s, what about?
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  The McCoy era. Interesting, I think.
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  I think. I think he knows how to play a
• 9:00
  Doctor Who villain perfectly. He's a little bit arch.
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  Yeah, fucking scary as well. Yeah, he's great.
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  Some great action there. I always like how the console in
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  the middle sort of mimics the TARDIS console for no apparent
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  reason. And that's a nice economic way
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  of suggesting that there are people frozen there wrapping up
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  a bunch of mannequins in bin bags, probably.
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  But you you really, you said this as ambitious.
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  There's a lot of sets that they ask of them in there.
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  A lot of sets. A lot of big sets.
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  By the time we get to the Singing Trees and Ice Gardens, I
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  feel the resources have run out a little bit.
• 9:35
  Yeah, it suddenly looks like the Sylorians.
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  Pay no attention. To the intruder.
• 9:43
  Now there's everyone's favorite triangular wall in the
• 9:45
  background. It's made as many appearances.
• 9:48
  OK, I'll give you 10 points if you can tell me the 1st Doctor
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  whose story that appeared in. Is it full circle?
• 9:53
  You need to go a bit further back than that.
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  Fuck, I know it's in horns and I'm on isn't.
• 9:57
  It you go further back than that, the mutants.
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  It is the mutants. There we go.
• 10:01
  I've got feeling you have asked me that before.
• 10:03
  Three points for that. I always feel it's a bit of a
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  treat when we see McCoy in the TARDIS because you get less than
• 10:10
  Les McCoy and the TARDIS after sort of greatest show I think it
• 10:13
  is. We don't really see it apart
• 10:15
  from that backdrop in Battlefield.
• 10:17
  Oh, that curtain they've got. Yeah, the curtains.
• 10:20
  Oh, look at this. They're trying to do a sort of
• 10:22
  Star Wars here. They've got all these.
• 10:24
  I mean, what's that freaking looking filler there with the
• 10:26
  red beak? I think that might be an old
• 10:29
  Sonora mask. You know, well, do you know, I
• 10:31
  actually know it was Sue Moore. Is it or someone like that.
• 10:34
  There was a duo who used to make these masks and they were Doctor
• 10:37
  Who fans and they were working on things like Tara Hawks and
• 10:39
  stuff like that. But they yeah, but they would
• 10:43
  just come to John Nathan Turner with all these masks they've
• 10:46
  made for things like this. And they he don't.
• 10:48
  Have they been in anything? And they were like, no.
• 10:50
  And he would just use them. We give them a few quid and it's
• 10:52
  just, you know, this is Doctor Who does the Cantina, obviously,
• 10:56
  because it's Doctor Who, it's like a camp cafe, but.
• 10:58
  On 6 pence. But I do.
• 11:00
  If you look around, you can see costumes from other Doctor Who
• 11:03
  stories. I believe there's one of the Meg
• 11:05
  loss, what they call no, it's Leisure Hive.
• 11:09
  Or is it Meg? Loss.
• 11:10
  I wasn't. There's definitely a leisure
• 11:11
  hive there, but I think that costume there, the sort of
• 11:13
  Viking one, Yeah. Oh, yes.
• 11:15
  Might be from Meg Loss, yeah, but of course, you know, it's a
• 11:18
  uniform, you know. What those funky looking green
• 11:21
  people are behind McCoy there? Cool.
• 11:23
  I mean, I'm surprised there isn't a big finish about them.
• 11:25
  About all of the tales of ice worlds, Don't you pretend you
• 11:31
  wouldn't. Buy that absolutely would.
• 11:34
  Now, obviously, we've just seen the first introduction of new
• 11:37
  companion Ace. Delivery test.
• 11:40
  And I know you're not a big fan of Ace, So.
• 11:42
  Now you're always slacking Sophie.
• 11:45
  Algerdoff. Can we just put a stop to this
• 11:47
  for a second because. Oh, I don't like her on audio.
• 11:51
  So that's why you hear me slagging her awful lot.
• 11:52
  Because I don't think Sophie Aldrid translates particularly
• 11:55
  convincingly to audio. It's quite hard to pretend to be
• 11:59
  16 years old when you're, you know, pushing 60.
• 12:02
  Yeah, very true. I think she was a massive
• 12:04
  injection in the TV show at the time, you know, and people were
• 12:08
  talking about that, the Doctor Who companions in a really
• 12:11
  positive way, the relatable character.
• 12:13
  And well, for the first time ever, we're doing sort of.
• 12:16
  Emotional arcs Well, Ian Briggs said he based her how she talked
• 12:20
  on the kids that he was teaching in sort of East London, North
• 12:23
  London. And while it's a bit corny these
• 12:27
  days, I mean we in the playground, we weren't too far
• 12:31
  from talking like that. But I would say the only thing
• 12:33
  is we were like 7 and. I mean, I was young, in a school
• 12:37
  in Crawley in the 80s, and the trash talk, there was nothing
• 12:41
  like his talk. I never called anybody a bilge
• 12:43
  bag. Male chauvinist bilge bag.
• 12:47
  You better watch out or I'll rivet your knee caps together.
• 12:49
  All right? I love glitz.
• 12:53
  Tomatoes now glitz. They asked Tony Selby to come
• 12:57
  back and he took two months to agree.
• 12:59
  Really. Yes, before the script was
• 13:01
  written. He really held that for two
• 13:03
  months before agreeing. Is it because of the reaction to
• 13:05
  troll at the time? I don't know, but I'm, I'm
• 13:07
  always surprised that he never came back in Big Finish or
• 13:09
  anything, so I can only assume that Tony Selby just wasn't that
• 13:12
  into the role. He did one.
• 13:14
  He was featured in one BBC novel, and I'll give you 10
• 13:17
  points, if you can name it. It was written by Gary Russell,
• 13:20
  wasn't it? David A Mcinty.
• 13:24
  Anyone think you had a pub course, you know?
• 13:26
  Yeah, I know we've only really just started covering the books,
• 13:29
  but what's? It called mission impractical.
• 13:32
  Of course it was on the. Tiff of Furbisher Furbisher and
• 13:35
  Glitz Furbisher, of course, confirmed coming back to the TV
• 13:38
  series by Rosa T Davis. I love it, but everybody
• 13:41
  believes it to be so. Hope so.
• 13:43
  Me too. It's HR Furbisher.
• 13:44
  They could do it now. If the 50th annivers 50th, 60th
• 13:47
  anniversary ended up not being some sort of multi doctor thing,
• 13:51
  but loads of niche references and characters like that, I'll
• 13:54
  be happy. I'll probably just hang up the
• 13:57
  podcast at that point and go with my work here is done.
• 14:00
  I had my biggest laugh on a podcast recently when you said
• 14:03
  to me and Luke Malloy on a. Recording that you were
• 14:06
  contrarian enough that you wanted the new series of Doctors
• 14:09
  Who to. I was like, oh God, what are
• 14:14
  people going to think about this?
• 14:16
  No fall back on it at all, thank God.
• 14:18
  Look at that. Look at the.
• 14:19
  Wallpaper with all the fruit on it, I'll believe you.
• 14:27
  Can I make a defensive male? Absolutely.
• 14:30
  I'm a big male fan. Because she's in six.
• 14:32
  Stories, alright. I don't think she had one ounce
• 14:35
  of character development in the entire time, but the enthusiasm
• 14:40
  that Bonnie Langford brought to the role and just for a
• 14:42
  character to want to be there and have adventures again.
• 14:47
  And we'd have all those years of Tegan, all those years of Perry.
• 14:50
  Yeah, I would rather watch Bonnie Langford than any of the
• 14:54
  companions that came before her. From Patrick onwards,
• 14:57
  essentially, I think she's brilliant.
• 14:59
  She skipped over into Big Finish.
• 15:01
  I started giving her sort of genuinely thoughtful things to
• 15:06
  say. And actually gave her a back
• 15:08
  story and a boyfriend and I was like, my God, and now she's
• 15:11
  going to be the Nick Fury of the of the new Doctor.
• 15:15
  Spout out my coffee. That's gonna be brilliant, you
• 15:19
  know, Bring bringing her back. There's a ginge on a on a ginger
• 15:23
  moped with the sexiest black doctor you've ever seen.
• 15:26
  What a time to be. A boy.
• 15:29
  Oh, he she is. Patricia Quinn, What the legend
• 15:31
  that is. But again, now we just missed
• 15:34
  like a little push into that set.
• 15:36
  But this is a different room and it's a big set again.
• 15:40
  Like, I don't know where they're filming this, but it feels like
• 15:42
  they got the biggest studio. There's a couple of glass shots
• 15:45
  in this as well. I think the final showdown in
• 15:47
  episode 3, the camera's right back in the set and they've
• 15:51
  given it scale by sort of showing you the ceiling and
• 15:53
  stuff like that. I really think, I think Chris
• 15:57
  Cloth is a little underrated. Yeah, I think he got a bit
• 16:00
  slagged off back in the day, but actually I think he, you know,
• 16:03
  he did this and Delta back-to-back and that's how they
• 16:06
  did the blocks and I I think all these episodes are really well
• 16:08
  put together. He's a bit does bits of trial.
• 16:10
  Doesn't it? He does terrible voice, great
• 16:12
  fun. Yeah, it's like he's got he
• 16:14
  again. He goes for the ambitious and
• 16:16
  it's not he doesn't get given like the darker scripts or
• 16:19
  things like that, but he gets given the fun scripts and he
• 16:22
  goes big with them and comes with lots of fun ideas.
• 16:25
  Did you ever listen to the Terror of the Verve Voice
• 16:27
  commentary? Oh yeah.
• 16:28
  I think I did, yeah. I'm going to say it again, I'm
• 16:30
  so sorry when he goes, you know, I got into a lot of trouble
• 16:33
  because they told me that the verve voice were vaguely sexual.
• 16:36
  And then? Jane Baker pipes up with Vaguely
• 16:39
  sexual What do you? Mean and Pitt Baker goes Change
• 16:42
  the fucking subject. Quick, it's not the.
• 16:44
  Best commentary ever. Oh dear, why don't you?
• 16:48
  Actually, I don't know. If you've listened to any of the
• 16:49
  McCoy commentaries, they're not quite there's there's a lack of
• 16:53
  zip about. Yeah, you get some interesting
• 16:56
  stuff if they've got the right moderator, but.
• 16:58
  Do you know what the big problem is?
• 17:00
  McCoy says it on the behind the site is he hates watching
• 17:02
  himself back. I wonder if that's a common
• 17:05
  problem with actors. Not Colin Baker, obviously.
• 17:07
  No, I mean he's just happy for the work, happy that he was what
• 17:10
  was working and is now being paid to watch his old work.
• 17:13
  So did. Yeah, I forgot how old you are.
• 17:17
  Did you watch this on Transmission?
• 17:19
  No, I was. I got into it with Battlefield
• 17:21
  episode 10. You told me so.
• 17:23
  I didn't could have watched it on Transmission.
• 17:25
  I would have been about five years old.
• 17:28
  I mean I watched it again and again on video release.
• 17:31
  So I think came out in 93 and I probably got it in 94 and it was
• 17:36
  one of my most watched videos because it's fucking great now
• 17:40
  if we missed the scene where she pulls the milkshake over the.
• 17:45
  Because do you know? Oh, no, no.
• 17:46
  That's when they get kicked out of the cafe.
• 17:48
  Yeah, they're still in there. So I'll save my little bit of
• 17:50
  trivia there. Look at that helmet on that man
• 17:53
  behind them and. What the hell is that?
• 17:58
  I know this is. Not a great podcast in me.
• 17:59
  Pointing at a screen saying what?
• 18:01
  Look there, look at the glass shot of the ice that looks.
• 18:04
  Look at the figures at the top. It's incredible.
• 18:07
  Like obviously we all know it's a studio and we all know it's,
• 18:11
  you know, not what they've got in mind, but they're doing the
• 18:14
  best they can. Well, you know, Doctor Who's
• 18:16
  been asking us to use our Emma and reboss when that was a snowy
• 18:19
  landscape of just a, you know, tiny corner of the studio, a bit
• 18:22
  of starring flying in and a church bell in the distance.
• 18:25
  Yeah, the whole scene. Galaxy four of this desolate
• 18:30
  landscape of a planet being destroyed and it's literally the
• 18:33
  corner of a studio. Now was asked to do that one.
• 18:35
  Yeah, thank God. I'm wondering, you know, if the
• 18:42
  the people that provide the dry ice machine to the BBC were like
• 18:45
  we're in quits in this week folks.
• 18:47
  Because you look every shot there, some being pumped in,
• 18:51
  well it's it's as cold doesn't. It does suggest it is dry ice,
• 18:54
  yeah. That's.
• 18:55
  That's a split level set as well, isn't it?
• 18:57
  You got the Yeah, it's and it's always exciting when they do
• 18:59
  that in classic Doctor because quite.
• 19:02
  Sorry this He's so scary here. As long as you bear my mark, no,
• 19:07
  it's it's over the top, but in a very menacing way.
• 19:12
  Many minutes said that to me, you know.
• 19:14
  Would you bear my mark? I own you, alright?
• 19:16
  You get tattoos that are like Kane's mark on our hands.
• 19:19
  Really. Shouldn't we?
• 19:20
  That's not a bad design, is it? Oh, here we go.
• 19:23
  Come on now, what's your story? So that Lady there who is in a
• 19:27
  minute gonna get a milkshake pulled over at where?
• 19:29
  Have you seen her in Doctor Who before?
• 19:31
  Oh Christ, Shirley. Something, isn't it?
• 19:34
  I don't. I can't remember her name.
• 19:37
  Um. No, I can't think she's one of
• 19:39
  the campers in the beginning of Stones of Blood.
• 19:43
  Oh, of course she is. She gets murdered while she's
• 19:45
  trying to have a shag. Yeah, yes, that old horror movie
• 19:49
  trope, isn't it? Once they've And he comes out
• 19:51
  doing his zipper up so we know he's in trouble.
• 19:54
  Yeah, he's just pitched up your tent now.
• 19:57
  I thought we could have had a long shot then of that ice cream
• 19:59
  going all over. Her.
• 20:00
  They only had one tape because the costume that the woman's
• 20:02
  wearing couldn't well, there wasn't a duplicate.
• 20:05
  She had to get it in one and she slightly botches it.
• 20:08
  There's that very strange moment in part three.
• 20:11
  You know, once the just in part. Three, when the when the entire
• 20:14
  massacre is taking place and that woman comes back and goes,
• 20:17
  oh, there you are, come on, let's go.
• 20:20
  Everyone else has been killed. I liked him as a deleted scene
• 20:22
  where she was just like in a bar somewhere and hadn't realized
• 20:25
  what was. Going on oh is offer.
• 20:29
  A nap, yeah. In fact, this car would be
• 20:31
  comfortable because that thing goes in over his head and then
• 20:35
  later on you see the dry ice. Filling up in there, Very
• 20:39
  relatable. This bedroom, yeah, I mean it
• 20:41
  was in the script. It was written as a student's
• 20:44
  bedroom and I think they've they've smashed it.
• 20:45
  Put like they've smashed the design there.
• 20:48
  I love the little plastic bag as it came in.
• 20:51
  It had an Ice World logo on it branded.
• 20:53
  I need an Ice World plastic bag. Where is Clayton Hitman with
• 20:57
  that design? They're thinking about the
• 20:58
  environment, aren't they? In a way, I don't think the
• 21:00
  show's been doing it sometimes exactly should.
• 21:02
  Only love about this thing, and it really emphasizes it in the
• 21:05
  book. Is they are, you know, male is
• 21:08
  obviously from a middle class family, Ace is obviously from a
• 21:11
  lower class family. And I like that sort of tension.
• 21:15
  And I think had Bonnie stayed on, as was originally suggested,
• 21:19
  she was going to the first twos, that would have been a really
• 21:21
  interesting dynamic. But then they did it on Big
• 21:23
  Finish, don't they? Years later.
• 21:24
  And they just, yeah. Because it's not the teenagers
• 21:26
  you need. Those two teenagers learning
• 21:29
  what their differences are and growing apart and then
• 21:33
  ultimately together again. But unfortunately, it's not.
• 21:36
  That's a fucking cool T-shirt she's wearing now.
• 21:37
  I'd wear that now, yeah. Me too.
• 21:40
  So what about the Nitro nine? I mean, it's fine.
• 21:43
  She she was an ace at chemistry. I think it's a very convenient
• 21:48
  thing like a like K9 to have to get you out of trouble.
• 21:52
  And you know, it's made an appearance in the last televised
• 21:55
  episode of Doctor. EI did very much like that,
• 21:57
  saying you know where she goes, Ohh, it's alright for me to use
• 21:59
  it when you want me to. Finally she said that yeah,
• 22:03
  which was was very refreshing. And then Sylvester shows up and
• 22:06
  I had to cry. He was great, wasn't he?
• 22:08
  I've been really crazy, but the the joy is to watch them fly
• 22:12
  your race by that point, sobbing into my pillow.
• 22:16
  Right the the cushion. I even had a bit of a moment
• 22:18
  between Davison and Fielding, you know, which is weird, I
• 22:21
  don't give. A shit about that pair.
• 22:24
  Sort of apologize to your brother there.
• 22:26
  Now if I was to own an original Doctor Who prop, I think it
• 22:30
  would probably be one of the cans of Nitro 9.
• 22:33
  Oh, I can make you one of those. It's not the same if you make
• 22:35
  it. When I was a kid, OK, her going
• 22:39
  around with bombs at a baseball bat was the coolest thing I
• 22:42
  could possibly imagine. Yeah, but it's also quite
• 22:44
  imitatable for kids in terms of playing Doctor Who.
• 22:47
  All of a sudden the companions got a gimmick and we can all get
• 22:50
  around as bat or a baseball bat and a can of deodorant, and all
• 22:53
  of a sudden we can all be ace. For this date, you know, I I
• 22:57
  still want to get a baseball bat and take it to the BWS
• 22:59
  department of my shop and smash every single bottle.
• 23:04
  Finally, Patricia Quinn's Bellage is a very interesting
• 23:09
  character. She's somebody that ICE could
• 23:12
  potentially be. If she takes Keynes office,
• 23:15
  she's supposed to be ace. But sort of 15 years later,
• 23:18
  these corridors, again, they're really cool.
• 23:20
  I mean, again, we know they're a set.
• 23:22
  What they're trying to do, as they've said many times before,
• 23:25
  they're trying to do aliens here.
• 23:26
  That's on a Doctor Who budget, so it doesn't quite work.
• 23:30
  But God love him for trying. I really know at the end of the
• 23:34
  episode where he goes on that ice ravine.
• 23:36
  Yeah. And there's that sort of long
• 23:38
  shot there. That looks really impressive.
• 23:40
  Well, it's a very famous cliffhanger.
• 23:42
  Voice of Terrible. We can discuss that a little
• 23:45
  bit. More when we get to.
• 23:46
  It Yes. I love jumping ahead, don't I?
• 23:50
  Gordon Bennett. I'll still say that to this day.
• 23:52
  Do you think you got it from? Ice.
• 23:55
  I definitely got it from ICE. Yeah, I would.
• 23:58
  I mean, I'm sure there are the DVD on the Blu-ray, but I'd love
• 24:01
  to see the studio for all plans for this.
• 24:03
  Yeah, well, how they squeezed it all in.
• 24:06
  Yeah, it's remarkable, all these little explosions.
• 24:10
  That's very funny, look. That's supposed to be ice, but
• 24:11
  it's all black, black ice black. Ice.
• 24:16
  They love blowing up things in the studio in the 80s, don't
• 24:18
  they? Nah, they're stature as well.
• 24:22
  I know it's not quite finished yet, but it does look like a
• 24:25
  plain mobile model, doesn't it? If I'd commissioned someone to
• 24:29
  make a nice statue of my great lost love, I'll be a big gut.
• 24:33
  That's what I've got. Dylan I could almost believe
• 24:36
  Exonna lives again. She was an ugly woman.
• 24:40
  Actually, you see her later. I don't know.
• 24:41
  She ain't that pretty. She.
• 24:43
  She suffered severe burns. I think that's the only thing I
• 24:46
  can assume. But I do like the idea of him
• 24:49
  pining over his lost love. Yeah, you know.
• 24:52
  Stuck. Stuck here on the what is it?
• 24:54
  The dark, icy cold side of this planet?
• 24:57
  Yeah. Oh no.
• 24:59
  Look at this. That looks like a panto set.
• 25:02
  It does. I mean, it does look like a
• 25:05
  panto set or it looks like a pert reset.
• 25:08
  I think there's even tinsel if you have a good look.
• 25:11
  There is and like there's no excuse for the tinsel, the it's
• 25:15
  fine just with the blue screen and that, but it's just it's a
• 25:18
  shame but. Keep your eyes peeled.
• 25:21
  Putting in trees, ice gardens. Done.
• 25:24
  You know, it's Mccoy's the only. Person that's sliding about,
• 25:27
  it's terribly, it's a good idea, but it's terribly misjudged.
• 25:31
  You even all need to be and that's that's down to Chris
• 25:34
  Clough. He should have said he didn't
• 25:35
  order it or McCoy stuff, but you just don't have the time.
• 25:39
  Going back to Clough quickly, I think the stories he directed in
• 25:43
  his first two years, so Terry Levoy's ultimate foe dealt with
• 25:47
  the bannerman and dragon fire. I think his heart's really in
• 25:50
  it. Yeah, I think come silver
• 25:51
  Nemesis, he's kind of done. Yeah, and.
• 25:55
  There's a bit of lazy direction in there.
• 25:56
  He's a very successful producer now, isn't he?
• 25:58
  We don't have to do. Skins do Skins and he's done
• 26:00
  loads of stuff. He's like, I'm sure he's near
• 26:04
  retirement age now, but it's Even so he's had a very
• 26:07
  impressive career. It's hilarious.
• 26:09
  Colin Baker's sucking up to it and terribly and terribly
• 26:11
  verbal. He's going, come on, you want to
• 26:12
  give me a bit of work? This is the first bit proper bit
• 26:19
  of Slippy McCoy, isn't it? And this is just the same set
• 26:22
  from before redressed, I think. Well, the trouble is, it makes
• 26:25
  the doctor seem a bit bumbling compared to everybody else.
• 26:29
  Whereas you know, it's nice you should be slipping about.
• 26:31
  I can barely get through the freezer at work without falling
• 26:33
  over, you know? But you know, I'll, I'll yeah, I
• 26:39
  mean, it's not fantastic, is it? Can I ask you a question about
• 26:43
  the artifice of Doctor Who? Yes.
• 26:46
  Well, hang on. No, I will come back to that
• 26:49
  question because. I I think this is a beautifully
• 26:52
  active scene where we also and really well scored as well.
• 26:56
  There's a piano score in this that sort of rises up as she's
• 26:59
  going for the coin. Yeah, it's it's an amazing score
• 27:02
  actually for this. Who did the score?
• 27:03
  Is it Dominic? Glenn Yeah, not Kef.
• 27:08
  No. And I think Mark as and Dominic
• 27:11
  Glenn probably did the best they did, but I've got time for Kef.
• 27:15
  I love KEF. Chef was a unique musician.
• 27:18
  Do you remember that being? Remember, it was like.
• 27:23
  We've got the discos when I was younger, but I was excited when
• 27:26
  I heard that as a kid. I was like Doctor Who's never
• 27:28
  sounded like this before. I was never a Dudby Simpson guy
• 27:30
  there, so. The tracking on my video during
• 27:32
  that scene was gone all around it so much.
• 27:35
  I was like Doctor Who's going disco.
• 27:37
  Yeah, she's been a fantastic jawline, hasn't she, this age?
• 27:43
  And I think she's just got that look of innocence about her and
• 27:46
  naivety that is perfect in this scene where what's the back
• 27:52
  story again? A time storm whipped up in a
• 27:54
  bedroom and bought her here. Ended up working as a waitress
• 27:58
  again. Have you ever had a time storm
• 28:00
  whip up in your bedroom? But then I've not been cursed by
• 28:04
  Fenrick. I've went up a few storms in my
• 28:08
  bedroom from. Time to time that room, mate,
• 28:10
  Yeah. Well, Mrs. is next door.
• 28:13
  I can't ask no more the dogs. Are here I pour?
• 28:21
  Mails off to be frozen like an ice pop.
• 28:23
  Yeah, bless her. So you never know where you're
• 28:25
  going to find the back of the freezer, do you?
• 28:27
  A fab? Lolly and Bonnie Langford
• 28:29
  perfect on there. I've got 2 Bonnie Langfords on a
• 28:32
  shelf back there as well, you know.
• 28:33
  How great is that line? You fancy argue with a can of
• 28:36
  deodorant that which is 9 on the Rick the scale.
• 28:40
  Look at that. Now do you know in the script
• 28:44
  this was like slanted and the doctor can see that because
• 28:48
  there is clearly a path there below and not there.
• 28:51
  But when you see the very wide shot you'll see there is a path
• 28:54
  And so he's trying to get down there, he's hooked on and then
• 28:56
  he slips and he's hanging off the edge.
• 28:58
  But the way the set was built, because if you went on it at a
• 29:02
  slant, you would just hear all the bumping and banging, so it
• 29:05
  ended up being a straight ravine.
• 29:06
  So actually the stupidest that everybody thinks he just gets
• 29:10
  down there for no reason, you can still clearly see the path.
• 29:12
  The problem is he's either going to fall to his death, which is a
• 29:15
  problem, or actually the path quite near and he'd be fine
• 29:17
  falling to it. If you see the wide, I will talk
• 29:20
  about the creature again in the. Very funny thing about it is.
• 29:24
  That because it's a production error that we can't properly see
• 29:27
  the path, which you can kind of see there, but it does just look
• 29:30
  like he's trying to kill himself.
• 29:31
  Yeah, it's very. Odd.
• 29:33
  It's led to all these people suggesting this is a very meta
• 29:35
  cliffhanger, the literal. Cliffhanger and look everything
• 29:41
  I said about him being dark in this story.
• 29:43
  Well, look at his facial expressions right now.
• 29:45
  But it's brilliant. It's it's a very doctorish
• 29:49
  response to the situation. Oh dear, no.
• 29:53
  But you see look. There, yes.
• 29:55
  So that's what he's trying to get.
• 29:57
  To the hell have we been complaining about all these
• 29:59
  years? But then actually if you look at
• 30:00
  that, that paths only really become clear on the Blu rays.
• 30:04
  OK. We sure that's not been matted
• 30:06
  in. For sure it is there.
• 30:08
  It is there. This is not a fiddled with.
• 30:11
  Version if anybody who still has the VHS would care to watch and
• 30:14
  get in touch. When this episode's released one
• 30:17
  day I'm gonna convert all my Doctor Who Vhs's so I can and
• 30:21
  then get rid of the tapes. Is it true that all of the names
• 30:26
  of the characters in this are taken from like film?
• 30:31
  Critics and stars and OK, do you know any of the history of any
• 30:36
  of them other than I don't. But I think that's just Ian
• 30:39
  Briggs being terribly funny and entertaining because he's fresh
• 30:43
  out of university studying film and what have you.
• 30:47
  What Andrew Cartmill did, which I thought was pretty incredible,
• 30:51
  was one he didn't give himself a writing assignment.
• 30:54
  Instead he just encouraged all of this young fresh, exciting
• 30:58
  new talent. And it's a because Ian Briggs
• 31:02
  only has four credits. Two Doctor Who's one episode of
• 31:05
  Casualty. One episode of the Bill and he's
• 31:08
  a teacher now. Yeah.
• 31:10
  And it's a shame because I do think, well, this isn't perfect.
• 31:15
  Curse effect of Henrick's a fucking masterpiece.
• 31:17
  I don't care what anybody says. And I just feel like because it
• 31:21
  was the tail end of the 80s, television was changing.
• 31:25
  He was seen as being able to write for a form of television
• 31:28
  that wasn't really relevant. This show was sort of cursed and
• 31:32
  it's like he really should have had a stronger career.
• 31:35
  And you know, Bugs crime Traveler, they could have all
• 31:37
  done with an Ian Briggs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:39
  Well, any of the riots that, but I think all the rest of them run
• 31:43
  around. Row obviously went on to have a
• 31:44
  pretty incredible theater career.
• 31:47
  Mark Platt churned out many a big finish and novel.
• 31:51
  Still got a day job I think. And.
• 31:55
  And I think he actually transferred to Big Finish quite
• 31:57
  successfully as well. Ben Aronovich worked in
• 32:01
  Waterstones for 20 odd years. And but he's done the rivers of
• 32:04
  London. And now he's a hugely successful
• 32:06
  author, which is amazing, but it was literally like Doctor Who,
• 32:09
  couple of bits of TV, nothing for 20 odd years and now he's a
• 32:13
  hugely successful author. Do you ever read his novel That
• 32:17
  also people you know, I've never read it.
• 32:19
  That's one of the best October she'll ever.
• 32:21
  I do. I do need to read it.
• 32:23
  If I have read it, I've forgotten it.
• 32:24
  As you know, I have a habit of doing that.
• 32:26
  I feel like with every single one of these things we talk
• 32:28
  about a new episode of Two Hop TV.
• 32:31
  Pops into existence? Really.
• 32:33
  Someone's got to pay me to do Too Hot for TV full time so I
• 32:36
  can quit. No, you've got a great day job.
• 32:40
  You don't want to do that. Well, look.
• 32:42
  As we all episode one, I've got a big question for you.
• 32:47
  And what I'm glad to ask you is quite appalling actually,
• 32:51
  because if this did happen, your podcast would not exist.
• 32:55
  I cannot allow that to happen. How?
• 32:59
  Would you? Because obviously this is what,
• 33:01
  87? The show's cancelled in 89, you
• 33:04
  say television's changing and I think you're right.
• 33:07
  I think sort of somewhere early to mid 90s that filmic look hit
• 33:13
  television didn't, especially science fiction, The X-Files,
• 33:15
  Buffy, things like that. Suddenly it was all looking very
• 33:17
  stylish. What would you imagine Doctor
• 33:20
  Who would have looked like in the 90s?
• 33:23
  I think it would have had to change.
• 33:25
  And Doctor Who, here it's shot like throughout the 90s.
• 33:29
  The only things that are shot like Doctor Who are sitcoms and
• 33:34
  soap operas with soap operas, with standing sets, this
• 33:38
  multicam thing. So it would have looked, it
• 33:40
  would have been, I think it still would have been videotape.
• 33:42
  I don't think they would have gone to film.
• 33:44
  Yeah, I think it would have looked, it would, assuming it's
• 33:48
  a British production and it would have been single camera,
• 33:53
  it would have been your crime travel as you.
• 33:54
  But Red Dwarf? Look at Red Dwarf in the 90s.
• 33:56
  Look at those you know. The model shots are friends, the
• 34:00
  same people that was doing this. And you know, the model shots in
• 34:03
  the McCoy era are largely, largely good.
• 34:07
  There's a few hit and misses, but yeah, it would look like Red
• 34:09
  Dwarf I think. The thing I noticed going back
• 34:12
  and watching bugs recently and that's I think that's 93
• 34:17
  something like that. So it's early 90s.
• 34:19
  And that's all done on videotape.
• 34:21
  It looks very They've mastered it, though.
• 34:23
  It looks very stylish. And you know the technology
• 34:25
  dates. It's all about technology bugs,
• 34:27
  and unfortunately, nothing dates like computers.
• 34:31
  Massive, bulky text on every screen.
• 34:33
  But if Doctor Who had looked anything like that, it would
• 34:36
  have been incredible. Well, I think.
• 34:37
  I think it probably would have. I suppose it's important to say,
• 34:41
  with Red Dwarf, I mean the location stuff, right?
• 34:44
  Because the studio stuff in Red Dwarf is still multicam, because
• 34:47
  it's still at it's heart a sitcom.
• 34:48
  But it's those effects, the location stuff, the bug stuff.
• 34:52
  And you know, I think, I think there was a world for that.
• 34:54
  I think while while I'm happy the way things turned out and
• 35:00
  extra in my mind, I would have loved Doctor Who to run until
• 35:04
  its 30th anniversary. And just, you know, you get
• 35:08
  McCoy, maybe get one more season of McCoy a year off and a
• 35:11
  special and that's it. And then that's the end of
• 35:14
  Doctor Who until the TV movie or whatever, and then it comes
• 35:17
  back. But it was not to be,
• 35:19
  unfortunately. I have Just this week we
• 35:22
  listened to your Dark Dimension episode of Too Hot for TV.
• 35:25
  When I say a 30th I. Don't mean that. 10 It's that
• 35:29
  they fuck it awful. Well, look, I mean, we could
• 35:32
  talk about the 90s to we're blue in the face, but we've got to
• 35:35
  talk about the 80s. Yeah, 1987 in particular.
• 35:38
  You ready to skip into episode 2?
• 35:39
  I'm ready to skip into episode 2.
• 35:41
  Let's do it, Azar.