Latest / Beyond The Horizon / Tyler Robinson Preliminary Hearing Transcript (Day 4 Part 14) (10/18/26)

Transcript

Tyler Robinson Preliminary Hearing Transcript (Day 4 Part 14) (10/18/26) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to dive right back in to
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: day number four, transcripts from the Tyler Robinson prelim hearing.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: And when we left off, Sergeant Fomina was finishing up
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: with her testimony. Judge Graff, turning to the state. Prosecution,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Your Honor, I just want to confirm with the clerk.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, yeah, let's make sure. Thank you. Appreciate creating
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: a good record. Prosecution, Judge, if I could just confirm
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: with the court. that all the exhibits we have offered
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: have been admitted into evidence. Judge Graff, alright, so, here's
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: what I have, and my court clerk will certainly correct
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. I have state exhibit 1, 2, 3, 3.1, 3.2, 4, 5, 5.1, 6, 6.1, 7, 7.1, 8, 8.1, 9, 10, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 11, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and I believe 12.4. Judge Graff, 13, 14, 15, 16, 16.1, 16.2, 16.3, 16.4, 17,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: and 18 are blank, so no. Prosecution, that is correct.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, alright. Prosecution, we're not offering 17 and 18.
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  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, alright. 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: The following are blank. 26, 27, 28, and 29. Prosecution.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: That's accurate. We're not offering on those numbers. Judge Graff.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I have 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, and 35, which
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: have been admitted into evidence. Prosecution. That's all I have
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: the record of. Judge Graff. All right. Does that comport?
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Answer from the clerk. Yes. Can we also go over
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the ones that inaudible? Judge Graff. I mean, we certainly can.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Would you like to put on the record? What, we're
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: published and what, we're not published? Prosecution? No, that's okay, Judge.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, all right, we're good then. All right. Prosecution,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: can I just have a moment? Judge Graff, yes. Prosecution,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Your Honor. The state rests its case in chief. Judge Graff,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: thank you. Turning to the defense. But before they get there, Mr.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Neiman jumps in, and he is the lawyer for Erica
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Kirk and the family. Your Honor, as the court knows...
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: The family is asked that all exhibits admitted into evidence
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: be shown here in open court. We're grateful to the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: court for allowing the family to view many, or most,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: of the exhibits today that were admitted. They reviewed here,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: openly in court, and obviously that was done after the
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: court struck what we think is the appropriate balance after
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: a very thoughtful and thorough analysis. I'm going to ask
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the court to consider, or reconsider, one of its prior rulings.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I understand reconsideration is always a big ask, but I
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: do think, Your Honor, that if the court were to
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: display publicly or just in the courtroom, Exhibit 12.1, which
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: is the enhanced video version 12.4, which was played in court,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: was very hard for the family to view. We think
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: that we ask the court, since the court's considering it,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: the family should be able to view it as well.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: When conducting the appropriate balancing, the court, as the court knows,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: can alleviate any concerns about proper jury selection with certain
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: tools at its disposal. However, if the court were to
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: deny the family the right to view the video, There's
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: no care. It's either they get to view it or
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: they don't. So we would ask the court to reconsider
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: its prior ruling and to display, just in the courtroom,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Exhibit 12.1, which is the enhanced video. Thank you, Your Honor.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, thank you. Turning to the parties, starting with
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: the state. Prosecution. Thank you, Judge. The state does not
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: oppose publishing 12.4 in the courtroom. I think we've tried
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: to make it very clear throughout this case that we're
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: in favor of openness and transparency as much as appropriate.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I'll submit on that. Judge Graff? Defense? Defense? Judge, at
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: this point in the proceeding, we're asking the court to
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: keep focus on the purpose of this hearing. And as
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: the justice has said in the Estes case, the purpose
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: of a trial, and I know this isn't a trial,
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  Speaker 1: but the same logic applies, is to determine the defendant's guilt.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: It's not to educate the public or the victim's family
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  Speaker 1: or the world on what evidence the government or the
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: state has. As the court knows, we have witness availability problems.
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  Speaker 1: We've spent the bulk of today and yesterday arguing about
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with the evidence in the case, but
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: with the rights of third parties. And it's appropriate for
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the court to consider that, but at some point, I
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  Speaker 1: think the court has to return to the purpose of
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  Speaker 1: these hearings, which is to expeditiously hear the evidence and
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: then determine probable cause. And I want to point out
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: to the court, Ms. Kirk has been very adept at
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  Speaker 1: holding press conferences at which she has revealed evidence. She's
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  Speaker 1: represented that the state is her attorney. She has access
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  Speaker 1: to all the evidence that the state has publicized and
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  Speaker 1: that the media and her own lawyer argues is already
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  Speaker 1: in the public domain. So they're perfectly free to go
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: outside this courtroom under the court's protective order. They're free
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  Speaker 1: to go out and hold press conferences and announce to
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  Speaker 1: the world outside the courtroom what they think the evidence is.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: They have the availability of that evidence, but the court's role,
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  Speaker 1: I think at some point, is to exercise some control,
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  Speaker 1: move the case forward, and especially protect when we have
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: witness availability problems. And I ask the court, whatever the
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: court does, if you're going to allow revisiting or replaying
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  Speaker 1: of evidence for the sole purpose of informing the world,
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  Speaker 1: or Ms. Kirk, or anybody else, that the court can
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  Speaker 1: do it at the end of the process, and not
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: at this point, where we'll be deprived of our ability
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  Speaker 1: to call this witness because she has to be done today.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, thank you, defense. Now, turning back to Erica
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  Speaker 1: Kirxler once again. Judge Graff, briefly, Erica Kirk's lawyer, understood,
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  Speaker 1: Your Honor. Judge Graff, and I say that because time
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: is of the essence, not because I don't want to
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: hear what you have to say. Erica Kirk's lawyer, I understand,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: but there was a lot that was just said that's
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: just not true. Judge Graff, so let me put this
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: in a spot where we need to be, and I
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: understand that there's opinions, but I have to keep this
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to the probable cause. I don't want this to go
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: back and forth about issues that lie outside probable cause.
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  Speaker 1: And I realize statements are made. And as the victim's
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  Speaker 1: representative attorney, you want to address it. So I'll hear you.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: But we need to be brief. So if you can
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: be succinct, I definitely want to hear what you have
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  Speaker 1: to say. Lawyer, Your Honor, I am almost always brief,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I promise you. The family has not seen this video.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: It hasn't. It doesn't have access to the evidence the
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: state has. The state is the state. And Ms. Kirk
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: and the family have their representatives. There's a completely distortion
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: of reality that was what was just put forth, and
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: this isn't about educating anybody about anything. This is about
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  Speaker 1: allowing the family to see the evidence that's been gathered
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  Speaker 1: after a 10-month investigation in which a father and the
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  Speaker 1: husband was assassinated. That's what this is about. So we
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: ask you to please allow the family to view the
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  Speaker 1: video like the court has viewed in order to allow
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  Speaker 1: the family to process this moment. Judge Graff, thank you.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Anything further before the court issues its ruling? And we
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: go from there. Prosecution, not from the state. Judge Graff
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: from the defense. Defense, no. Judge Graff, all right, all right.
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  Speaker 1: So I recognize that the Utah Constitution under Article 1,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Section 28 recognizes victims' rights and the court respects those
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  Speaker 1: rights and, as it's been previously stated, balances those rights
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: with the constitutional rights of all parties. I will reserve
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: my ruling on that and maybe revisit it tomorrow. But
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: because we have an issue of expiring time, and one
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: witness that needs to leave today, I need to turn
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: to that. I'm not ruling that that cannot happen, but
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  Speaker 1: for today, we need to focus on this, to getting
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  Speaker 1: this defense witness on the stand, and off the stand.
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  Speaker 1: And so please, if I do not remember, the parties
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  Speaker 1: can remind me, and we can revisit this tomorrow. So again,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying yes, I'm not saying no. I'm simply saying,
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  Speaker 1: we need to get this witness, and I'm happy to
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  Speaker 1: readdress this tomorrow, okay? To the defense, we call Samantha Karner,
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  Speaker 1: K-A R-N-E-R. Judge Graff, alright, Samantha Karner is being requested.
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  Speaker 1: If you can go ahead and retrieve her. So she
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  Speaker 1: gets brought into the courtroom, and they get ready to go.
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  Speaker 1: Please raise your hand. Do you solemnly swear that the
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  Speaker 1: testimony you're about to give, now before the court, will
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  Speaker 1: be in the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
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  Speaker 1: the truth, so help you God? Karner, I do. Bailiff,
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  Speaker 1: thank you, you can sit down. Judge Graff, alright, thank
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  Speaker 1: you ma'am. If you wouldn't mind coming forward, having a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: seat at the witness stand. To your left is a
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: water bottle if you choose. It looks like you brought
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: your own as well. And after, you're situated, if you
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  Speaker 1: wouldn't mind pulling that microphone towards you, just to ensure
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  Speaker 1: that your testimony is picked up on the record. Mr. Burt,
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  Speaker 1: your witness. Defense, thank you. Good afternoon. Could you tell
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  Speaker 1: us your name, please? Answer, Samantha Karner. Question, and Ms. Karner,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: what do you do for a living? Answer, I'm a
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: firearm and tool mark examiner. Question, and where are you stationed? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: I currently work at the Forensic Science Laboratory in Washington
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  Speaker 1: for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Question,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: and how long have you been employed at that location? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: a little over six years. Question, what generally do you
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  Speaker 1: do there? What area of expertise do you have? Answer,
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  Speaker 1: I'm assigned to the Firearm and Toolmark Unit, so I
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: receive items of evidence related to firearms, tools, tool marks,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: and fired ammunition components. Question, at the request of the
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: state of Utah, did you conduct certain examinations relevant to
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the case? Answer, I did, yes. Question, could you bring
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  Speaker 1: up state 32 in evidence? Judge Graff, on all screens? Defense,
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  Speaker 1: I think it's approved for publication. Judge Graff, all right,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: let's go. ahead and put it on all the screens,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: because this was admitted and published previously, all right? Defense,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: do you recognize plaintiff exhibit number 32? Answer, I do, yes. Question,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: are you the author of this report? Answer, I am. Question, okay.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: What were you asked to do in relation to the
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: examination that's documented in this report? Answer, for the submission
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: one report I received a firearm, cartridge case, three cartridges,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: one bullet jacket fragment, and four lead fragments. I was
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: asked to test fire the firearm and compare the test
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: fires to the cartridge case and the bullet jacket fragment.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I was also asked to do a tool mark characterization
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: on the cartridge case and the cartridges. And then I
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: also ran a general rifling characteristics search on the bullet
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: jacket fragment. Question, okay. And are your conclusions accurately documented
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: in your report? Answer, yes. Question, could you turn to
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: page two of the report, second, bottom of the page,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: those two paragraphs, please? Did you write in your report
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: these conclusions conform with a relevant Department of Justice policy
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: on uniform language for testimony? Answer, yes. That's always added
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: to our reports. Question, and do you have a standard
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: operating procedure that requires that in each examination you do,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: this language has to be in there? Answer. We do. Yes. Question. Okay.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And I want to ask you to review the document
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: that is referenced in that language, which would be, and
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: this is just for her only, Exhibit 11. Let me
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: know when you can see that. Are you able to
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: view it? Answer. Yes. Question. Is this the ATS? Is
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: this the language referred to in your report? Answer. Yes,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: it is. Question. The written policy of the department. Of
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: justice concerning uniform language for testimony and reports for the
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: forensic firearm tool mark discipline pattern examination? Answer, it is, yes. Defense,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: I move that into evidence. Judge Graff, what's the title
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: of the exhibit? Your Honor, this would be corner 11.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Judge Graff, all right, and what level of publication are
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you requesting? Defense, both public admittance into evidence. Judge Graff
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: to the state? The state, no objection. Judge Graff, all right,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Karner 11 is admitted into evidence and may be published
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: on screens and captured by the camera. All right, folks,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up right here. And in the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: next episode, dealing with the topic, we'll pick up where
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: we left off. All the information that goes with this
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box.