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how to keep going in business when you're grieving · soulful biz guidance

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SPEAKER_01: Hello, hello and welcome to a new episode of our podcast.
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Today we're back for Whispers of Inner Power interview and I'm
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so happy to be
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SPEAKER_01: joined by Ruth Cooper Dixon.
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SPEAKER_01: Ruth is the creator of Thrive Ship Coaching,
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SPEAKER_01: a positive psychology approach that supports people through adversity,
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SPEAKER_01: grief,
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SPEAKER_01: anxiety and burnout.
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She's an award-winning practitioner,
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trauma-informed coach,
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breathwork leader,
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SPEAKER_01: Broadcaster and she's currently writing a book on post-traumatic growth.
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SPEAKER_01: Ruth, hello.
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SPEAKER_01: I see you're reacting to your own bio.
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SPEAKER_00: I love it.
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SPEAKER_00: I love it.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm like hyping myself up here, right?
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SPEAKER_00: When do we ever hype ourselves up?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've done all that.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a good reminder.
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I love it when I do corporate programs and people do the intro
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and I'm like,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: just keep going.
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SPEAKER_00: This is great.
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SPEAKER_00: We need to be reminded of these things.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm really happy that you're here today.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
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I'm good I've just recorded a I was a guest on a coaching
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psychology podcast
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because I'm in Dublin next week presenting my research at the
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European Conference
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of Positive Psychology I'm actually presenting my published
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research and also a
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program I've been working on with classical musicians which has
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been really
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fascinating so yeah it's been a heavy intensive Ruth talk
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morning but I'm all good
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SPEAKER_00: I'm prepared for this so yeah
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So cool,
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we've been talking for a while before actually being able to do
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this.
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SPEAKER_01: So yes, I can feel the anticipation as well.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's dive into it.
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I always love to start with the beginning because your work is
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rooted in lived
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SPEAKER_01: experience as much as research.
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SPEAKER_01: So can you take us back a little?
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SPEAKER_01: What brought you to this work specifically?
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so um my own lived experience was with was with my own mental
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ill health journey so
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that was 11 years ago around about now not far off now um so 11
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years ago I had
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what I called a very public meltdown it technically was a panic
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attack in my CEO's
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office at work I'd live with panic attacks for about two
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decades I'd never told
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SPEAKER_00: anyone they started when I was 19 when I went into corporate life um
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Meetings actually was what triggered them but I never I
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actually didn't even know
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this this was all stuff that's come out afterwards but they
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didn't they weren't at
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school they weren't in sixth form they happen when I started
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work and I I kept them
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very secretive I had these most elaborate coping strategies
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avoidance mechanisms to
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SPEAKER_00: deal with them and um when that happened I was
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was diagnosed then I was very fortunate I got help very quickly
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I was very unwell I
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was in a very dark place as well and I'll never forget my
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therapist who was via the
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NHS and I was very lucky here in the UK to have that support it
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doesn't always
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happen that quickly or that you know with that sort of support
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and I was diagnosed
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with panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder and that
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was basically then
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the start of my recovery healing journey of like the last 11
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years so that involved
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me suddenly deciding to quit my job with no plan I was broke
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because I'd just gone
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through a divorce and I just wanted to I didn't even have a
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business plan right I
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just wanted to change the conversation around mental health at
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work so I left and
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SPEAKER_00: thought
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this is what I want to do and I had a network I'd worked in the
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city I'd had a big
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corporate career investment banking wealth management aerospace
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and yeah I just
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that's where I went and and over the years like I think I'd
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always been fascinated
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with sort of the idea of resilience and performance and
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wellness was definitely
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part of who I was as well and kind of bringing all that
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together I retrained I grew
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SPEAKER_00: a very large
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consultancy and then with my own diagnosis of being
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neurodivergent which came at
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the end of 2022 blew everything up I had three businesses at
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one point uh social
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enterprise a private practice a very big corporate consultancy
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and 2023 was my art
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of shedding as I described it and just basically stripped
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everything back and and
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SPEAKER_00: interestingly the grief work particularly came about the last
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a couple of years like grief I I've read about this on my
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Substack it's probably why
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well it's how I've been brought up my my my dad died um when I
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was six in a car
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accident um and my life changed absolutely beyond then um um my
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mom was one of the
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SPEAKER_00: is is one of the toughest people I've ever met I mean
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she lost she'd also she'd also lost them like her dad her
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brother not long before I
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was born there she lost her husband and you know just how she
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is the person she is
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is just phenomenal and I'm really instilled into me a couple of
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things that life
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was not a dress rehearsal for one and secondly like just really
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understanding grief
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SPEAKER_00: at a really young age and and kind of like how
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I would tackle that and then I did have lots of bereavements
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even as a teenager so
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I was exposed to death I suppose very early on but always been
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really comfortable
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with death and yeah I think looking at all the work I've done
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so my area of
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SPEAKER_00: expertise is what's called post-traumatic growth like how do we thrive
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or grow from going through adverse life experiences and that's
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what my published
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research is in and I suppose all the areas I've tended to work
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not only in
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corporate industry because that's where I do a lot of my work
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day to day but I've
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SPEAKER_00: worked you know for four years I had a program that supported women who'd
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experienced uh domestic abuse and violence as it kind of was
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called so DVA um and
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SPEAKER_00: kind of thriving on the back of um
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having had that experience and coming into a coaching room very
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clear that that is
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part of what they're bringing into that space although we're
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not working on that
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it's kind of the other aspects of life and that came on the
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back of a piece of
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research that I found when I was doing my own thesis so I
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suppose I've always
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described myself as a coach with broad shoulders because of all
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the mental health
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work I've done and I've been really fortunate I've been brought
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into spaces where
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SPEAKER_00: Psychiatrists,
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Psychologists have worked in parallel with me or train me and
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know that I'm not a
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SPEAKER_00: therapist,
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SPEAKER_00: not a counselor.
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I've got people that I coach who are in both camps and I think
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that sometimes
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that's really supportive and helpful and quite often I get
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referrals that way.
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But yeah,
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it's just been a really interesting journey of where it's taken
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me.
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SPEAKER_00: Breathwork came about because of my own coping strategy.
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of navigating sort of panic attacks and the somatic side of
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holding trauma and
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SPEAKER_00: finding a release that's,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: embodied release.
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I've been a patron of one of the anxiety charities in the UK
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now since 2018,
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SPEAKER_00: which is a big,
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SPEAKER_00: big thing for me.
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SPEAKER_00: So there's been lots of things that kind of come together.
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SPEAKER_00: They all kind of make sense,
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but it's sometimes really hard to say what it depends on the
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audience what I'm
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SPEAKER_00: talking about what I do.
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because I just I think it's just you know I've not been ever
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afraid to just throw
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myself into um all different types of projects and programs and
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working people I
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worked with humanitarian aid workers for four years I spent
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time in the field
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during COVID when everyone was at home I was out in Greece and
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working in the
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SPEAKER_00: refugee camp and um supporting workers out there you know um
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I think there's been a very much an element for me of finding
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people that are that
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need that support also who may not have access to it and I
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think that's also been
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something that I've recently done with the classical musicians
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this was positive
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psychology coaching but it was for a group of people that
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rarely have the funds to
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be able to pay for this type of support and it was completely
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pro bono I do a lot
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I make money from a lot of great places and make you know I
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make good money I'm
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very privileged in that respect but also I spend a lot of my
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time and because I
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don't have millions to give away and if I did I'd be you know
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philanthropy and just
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giving out so much but for me that's a big part of giving back
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like that's a big
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part of who I am it always has been um so yeah if I can donate
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time or skills I'm
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SPEAKER_00: all for that and I spend
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probably at times to my own detriment but you know all the
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humanitarian aid work
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all the women's programs the classical music work all of that
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is you know that's
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all been pro bono so yeah thank you so much for this full
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answer and I can really
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see the depth of it because it's it's about the origin story as
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well like every
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everything where you are now what you've been doing I can
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really hear this theme of
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having experienced it and wanted to give that support to people
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who have also
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experienced it because if you have a skill if you know how to
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support them then you
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want to do that for them so that's that's beautiful thank you
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so much for sharing
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that I think a lot of the people listening that have been
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through loss a parent a
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SPEAKER_01: relationship a version of themselves sometimes grief is that um
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um they they've done something I've done myself um functional
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grieving so you go to
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therapy you get to a place where you can carry on I feel so
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guilty of saying that
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because I'm like yes I did exactly that and you think okay I've
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done the work or
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SPEAKER_01: I've done enough of the work to to be functioning
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SPEAKER_01: But grief has a way of living in us that we don't always see.
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SPEAKER_01: What would you say that unprocessed grief actually looks like?
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SPEAKER_01: What are the signs from the outside?
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I think this is really interesting at the moment because
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someone reached out to me
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SPEAKER_00: on a friend of mine on Facebook Messenger last month,
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SPEAKER_00: May,
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SPEAKER_00: and they work in the funeral industry.
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and they sent me a message which was just really random about
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they're really
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concerned because they're seeing so many people now who for
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financial reasons are
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making the choice of what we call direct crematorium so
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basically like no service
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not even a funeral or any kind of ritual and they actually put
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in this message like
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SPEAKER_00: I'm really worried this is going to have a long lasting impact because
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there is no way to grieve and actually I was with and then it
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was weird because I
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had that message and then a few days later I met through a
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mutual friend we hadn't
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me and this person had met before but they are a funeral
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celebrant and they
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SPEAKER_00: recently retrained in also a kind of a ritual grief process which is from
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I think it's from Africa but I might be wrong in that but it's
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definitely like an
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idea of like how do we have a ritual around grief and I had the
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same conversation
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and we were basically saying that you know so not only do we
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think about grief as
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something that's got to be healed like so I think that is a
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misconception about
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SPEAKER_00: grief in itself right and I think to your point of we do the work if we
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If we are struggling and we need that support to make sense of
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our own feelings and
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SPEAKER_00: emotions and to be able to process that with a professional,
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SPEAKER_00: whether that is
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a therapist or a counselor whether that is a coach who is
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appropriately qualified
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to hold that space as well and to be able to work on the more
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practical sense of
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like some of the support around grief but I think it's it's
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something that we kind
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of expect to disappear and yet it doesn't and I'm reading this
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I've just started
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reading this book yesterday that was recommended to me and I
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can't remember for the
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SPEAKER_00: life of me now what it's called it
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but it's by a psychotherapist and it's like a really old book
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and this idea of like
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the fat grief the opening chapter which I read on the train on
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the way into London
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is basically this idea of like how we kind of have this
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misconception of grief
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being something that has to be healed and done with and you
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said boxed away and you
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SPEAKER_00: know processed but I you know my dad died 41 years ago this year
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or 42 years ago this year and I think about my dad every day
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like I think about my
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dad's photos on my dresser and when I see a magpie I think my
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dad and if I do
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SPEAKER_00: anything big like my dad is with me and like you know there's
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SPEAKER_00: There's parts,
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SPEAKER_00: there's times,
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SPEAKER_00: if there's a film where someone's parent dies,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm bawling my eyes out.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: that happened in Masters of the Universe,
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SPEAKER_00: He-Man,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe the week,
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SPEAKER_00: and spoiler alert,
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SPEAKER_00: if anyone's going to watch such a trash,
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SPEAKER_00: it's a ridiculous movie,
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SPEAKER_00: but I love those kind of movies.
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SPEAKER_00: And the dad dies, I'm like, oh my God, it was always the dad.
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SPEAKER_00: But I just think there's something about,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: there is signs when,
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's also when you feel life can't go on,
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SPEAKER_00: and I think definitely...
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you know grief whether it's a bereavement or whether it's
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another form of loss and
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I went through quite a lot in the back end of second half of
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2023 and so many
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different elements of different types of grief relationship
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breakdown pet loss I
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had to make the decision on losing my home I'd also been
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diagnosed at the back end
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of 2022 so the beginning of 2023 being neurodivergent I blew up
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my businesses I
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SPEAKER_00: lost so much and no wonder I was like
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I was in such a dark place and I've experienced wanting to not
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be here anymore
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without triggering kind of language like not wanting to be here
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anymore in the past
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and work through that and had professional help and I know it's
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kind of something
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SPEAKER_00: that I might end up going through
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and so ended up having professional support to be able to work
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through that and so
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I think there's like a time when you just know that if you're
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in that place where
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you're stuck and it's really impacting chronically and also
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it's normal to have
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those senses of grief and to feel that loss right at different
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points but it's when
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it's all for me it's like when it's all encompassing when it's
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really affecting
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who you are how you're showing up in life the relationships you
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have how well you
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feel I mean we know there is what is prolonged grief right
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where someone is not
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able and also complex grief as well where they could be lots of
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kind of stories and
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nuance that's happening underneath the initial death or loss
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which can be much more
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deep if someone perhaps had a very difficult relationship with
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that individual or
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SPEAKER_00: It's tied to, you know, another form of identity as you described about.
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SPEAKER_00: There was so much there that a therapist,
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SPEAKER_00: counsellor,
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SPEAKER_00: psychiatrist,
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whoever it is that you're working with for whatever depth of
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support that you need
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and type of support is able to unpack that with you in a way
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that's safe and to
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SPEAKER_00: make sense of that.
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SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think... Go on.
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SPEAKER_01: No, I was going to say I like how you've expressed that and shown us.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not...
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SPEAKER_01: It's not a problem to be grieving.
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The problem where you need support is where you can't go on
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with your life.
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SPEAKER_01: Then you need to absolutely do something about it.
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SPEAKER_01: But it's not about not being sad, like you say.
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And I think what I've experienced in the last two years,
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I lost my dad in early July 2024,
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SPEAKER_00: And it was a complex relationship.
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SPEAKER_01: I was just joking about this with my husband yesterday because I said,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: there's grief and then there's complex grief.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, it's definitely complex grief.
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SPEAKER_01: And then there's trauma and there's complex trauma.
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SPEAKER_01: And I've done that too.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can't do anything easy.
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SPEAKER_01: You have to have the complex one.
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SPEAKER_01: It's already hard like it is, but let's make it complex.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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Yeah and it's funny because all that I do a lot of I've started
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to do even more
16:58
corporate work in I mean you know mental health and well-being
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is predominantly
17:01
what I've what I've done for the last 11 years right and big
17:04
global organizations
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SPEAKER_00: law firms insurers
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those types of organizations and grief is something that has
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yet to be really
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tackled I'm starting I've been starting that now for about the
17:16
last 12-18 months
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and just even reviewing like grief policies like some
17:21
organizations don't really
17:22
have they have compassionate leave but it's very much down to
17:26
the manager to figure
17:29
out like what someone might need and you know to your point we
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think about the
17:33
initial stage of grief and you know for example take a
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bereavement so I might need
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SPEAKER_00: some time off or
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you know the funeral and sorting you know and sorting out maybe
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death admin who is
17:44
want to call it that and but then after that like what what
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what happens and I
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spent a lot I've spent 11 years training managers leaders on
17:55
having mental health
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SPEAKER_00: and well-being conversations because I
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in lots of places that is not part of the management curriculum
18:02
or hasn't been and
18:03
it never was like it was never expected as a manager you would
18:06
you would have those
18:07
conversations really it was you know that's that's personal
18:10
stuff it's not work
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SPEAKER_00: stuff but we know now I mean the in the UK we've got um
18:16
a charity called Sue Rider and they did some really interesting
18:18
research that says
18:20
if someone goes through a bereavement that they're likely only
18:23
to be up to I think
18:24
it's about 70% of their capacity in the first six months and
18:28
you think about all
18:29
the impacts that grief has the brain fog the memory the
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cognitive the emotional the
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you know the physical impact because it's a stressor you know
18:38
and if you're
18:39
Caring and supporting others are grieving and doing the holding
18:43
for other people in
18:45
the family or trying to be supportive if you've got children if
18:49
it's a parent
18:49
that's died you know there's so many complexities to that and
18:53
it's not something
18:53
that is easily boxed off and that just disappears and
18:57
recognizing that actually
18:59
it's when people stop checking in and we were having this
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conversation offline but
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SPEAKER_00: it's like further down the line right it's like the 6-12 months in where
19:08
actually someone is still really struggling because you know
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and people stop
19:13
checking in because life continues for them as normal and what
19:19
do you mean you're
19:19
not over it or you know like oh that was ages that wasn't that
19:23
ages ago and and
19:25
these are really you know I think I'm always I'm not surprised
19:28
anymore with what
19:29
people say to each other because yeah it's happened to me but
19:32
it happens to all my
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SPEAKER_00: clients where they're
19:34
sort of given that information or those kind of throwaway
19:37
comments that people
19:39
people don't like it we don't talk in the west culture we don't
19:42
talk about death we
19:44
don't talk about death from a positive aspect of living well
19:48
that's why I love
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going to death cafes because I I leave so on a high after going
19:53
to a death cafe as
19:54
in I really want to make the most of life like I leave so
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enthused about just
19:59
SPEAKER_00: making the most of every moment what is a death cafe
20:03
Oh my god so Death Cafe started in the UK and they're not a
20:08
grief therapy space
20:10
circle grief circle anything like that the idea is you come
20:14
together to talk about
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SPEAKER_00: death in an open way and
20:17
Every death cafe I've been to has been random people and you
20:23
get people who are
20:24
perhaps experiencing a bereavement or have it's a universal
20:30
human experience of
20:32
loss but there's people there who are funeral celebrants or
20:36
people who work in the
20:37
care system or hospice or people just interested to go and talk
20:41
to someone about
20:43
what it means to die because I think this is the point we only
20:47
talk about death
20:48
when someone is terminally ill or we're kind of thinking about
20:52
we must do a will or
20:54
you know where we are or we've died you know that's the only
20:58
time like we don't
20:59
have these kind of open conversations that are because it's
21:04
almost like if I talk
21:05
about it I'm going you know and I've had someone say this if I
21:07
talk about it I feel
21:08
SPEAKER_00: like I might
21:10
I'm Tempting Fate we're like talking about something bad I'm
21:14
like it kind of
21:15
doesn't make sense right yeah you have to name the unspeakable
21:20
right name the
21:21
unknown but you know um so it's really important and I think
21:26
because I've always
21:27
been around it like it's never been something that I've not
21:30
grown up with and also
21:32
my mum working as a midwife and a nurse like these are part of
21:35
the conversation she
21:36
SPEAKER_00: would share from work and you know like life and death and and um
21:41
SPEAKER_00: So I,
21:41
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
21:42
SPEAKER_00: it's just,
21:42
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm just,
21:44
SPEAKER_00: it just reminds,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: it reminds me that time is always so short.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is what,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: humans,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: as we know,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: we often really struggle with impermanence.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Nothing is ours forever when, you know, and I'm fascinated with space.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm a big space nerd.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And,
22:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:00
SPEAKER_00: just when you think about how insignificant we are,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: we are significant in ourselves and we can have an impact,
22:06
SPEAKER_00: but in the scheme of the universe and like,
22:10
you know like how many just like how short our time is like
22:15
these are these are the
22:16
things we're going to be making the most of and that's
22:18
literally what I came off
22:18
the last podcast saying like I just want to have all the
22:22
stories I just want to go
22:23
out there and just do as much as I can in the time that I'm
22:25
here for yeah that's
22:28
but yeah so I think total sense it leads really well into my
22:33
next question I was
22:34
SPEAKER_01: going to um to talk about you know how
22:39
SPEAKER_01: It shows up sometimes when,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: or in business,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: but also when not,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: we're talking to people who are in business here,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: so I go with business.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: But something I noticed, and I did that.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: So when my father passed two years ago, I also turned 40.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: Bam!
22:58
it made me want to grip harder so work harder actually I had
23:04
been on a on a
23:05
sabbatical of two years I was a stay-at-home mom before that
23:08
for two years and I
23:09
had we had discussed with my husband this would go on for five
23:13
years total but
23:14
after at that time I was like no no no I need to work I need to
23:21
build my career
23:21
SPEAKER_01: again I need to
23:23
live my life I need to build something for myself and it made
23:27
me work harder
23:28
control more control more myself and you were speaking earlier
23:33
about when we have
23:35
little ones I have two kids and I homeschool them so I'm also
23:37
like the fact of
23:39
homeschooling them I'm always with them so I felt very
23:42
responsible for the energy I
23:44
was giving and honestly for the first six months I could what
23:49
energy was I I was I
23:51
SPEAKER_01: was a puddle right
23:54
But even now I can feel like you know when sometimes when it
23:57
hits me again and you
23:58
were talking about an example you see a movie with a dad that
24:00
dies that's it you're
24:01
you're you know and I try also to like not always cry in front
24:07
of them and I'm
24:08
really okay with vulnerability and with showing that you know
24:10
tears and sadness and
24:12
grief is part of life but I also know how they take it in I can
24:15
see immediately in
24:16
their eyes they're like mommy's not well and then they worry
24:20
you know and I'm like
24:21
SPEAKER_01: yeah
24:22
SPEAKER_01: But it's their life It's their everyday They have only us Because we are
24:26
homeschooling And so I want to also You know Anyways All of
24:30
that to say In the end
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Is that a pattern that you often see?
24:35
Grief that shows up Maybe as a hustle sometimes Or that we
24:38
cannot rest Or we want
24:39
to control more Ourselves The environment Yeah Outcomes You
24:46
know Just add a little
24:47
SPEAKER_01: story there This year In 2026 In January
24:51
we had a storm we are I'm in the center of Portugal we had a
24:54
storm that devastated
24:57
my city like we had no electricity or water for seven days and
25:02
this triggered the
25:04
unprocessed grief because I have zero control on life and on
25:09
who dies somehow yeah
25:11
I think um yeah what is in and out of our control is huge right
25:16
I think if we could
25:17
SPEAKER_00: all learn that skill
25:19
I mean that's it humans love to be in control the brain loves
25:22
to be in control you
25:24
know it doesn't like it if if we and also if we don't know the
25:28
answer is why we
25:29
make assumptions right our brain fills in the gaps it's quicker
25:31
and easier to do
25:33
that and and to kind of make up the story as we go as well so
25:37
yeah if things are in
25:39
and out of our control and to hold on tighter and and that is
25:43
something that comes
25:44
SPEAKER_00: up all the time um about what is in my control and I think
25:49
SPEAKER_00: There's a balance, isn't there?
25:51
SPEAKER_00: There's a balance of being able to let go,
25:54
SPEAKER_00: but also not to feel that it's overwhelming,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: like for people that it's not overwhelming.
25:59
And I think this idea of,
26:02
to your point about not wanting to deal with grief,
26:05
I see...
26:06
that come up whereby it's been like where someone perhaps comes
26:11
to me as a coach
26:12
and then that is part of what is kind of been going off but
26:17
they don't necessarily
26:18
come for that reason but it's the busyness and I think this
26:23
year this is always
26:24
true what people say about coming to a breathwork class is that
26:26
I don't want I'm
26:27
gonna cry and lose control yeah they think about because it's
26:30
the holotropic
26:31
breathwork that I teach so the conscious connect to breathing
26:34
the mouth breathing
26:35
SPEAKER_00: which
26:36
has been proven to have um you know that kind of transcendental
26:40
experience as well
26:41
for some people and Stanislav Groth psychotherapist used it
26:45
with his patients
26:46
that's where holotropic the the brand of holotropic breathwork
26:50
came from like to
26:51
process feelings emotions that were in the body that words
26:55
couldn't be put to or
26:56
SPEAKER_00: that
26:57
SPEAKER_00: People just get fed up of talking, right?
26:59
I remember just going to my GP saying,
27:01
there's nothing for me to talk about.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Why am I still getting these panic attacks?
27:04
SPEAKER_00: I've literally emptied everything out.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: So I think that people will be afraid.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: They're afraid of not being in control.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: They're afraid of crying and losing, you know, that all coming out.
27:16
Because for me,
27:17
it's like,
27:18
well,
27:18
who's going to help me put that back together again?
27:21
SPEAKER_00: That's like a big thing, right?
27:22
So if I even open this little box up that I've
27:26
compartmentalized and pushed to one
27:28
SPEAKER_00: side,
27:30
SPEAKER_00: what am I going to do with it when I open it?
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is part of it because
27:36
we know you you and I know we've been there and done that work
27:40
you know that takes
27:41
energy effort it takes time it takes money in lots of cases it
27:47
takes a support
27:48
network like one of my questions as a coach and um you know
27:52
I've got other peers at
27:54
work in this space who will say what's your what's your
27:57
resource support network
27:58
SPEAKER_00: like because you have access to me one hour
28:01
you know a month or twice a month whatever it whatever the the
28:05
the uh contracting
28:07
is but who's supporting you when you're you know like if you're
28:10
going to do this
28:11
work who's got your back because I think that's something that
28:14
we've that often you
28:16
know isn't because if you're doing the work how do you process
28:21
you have that one
28:21
hour where's the rest of the time you know when you're doing it
28:25
thinking it through
28:25
SPEAKER_00: doing the homework etc etc making those changes and
28:30
getting it wrong trying things out being brave being curious
28:34
like who's got your
28:35
back and that's all of that stuff is a lot you know people are
28:39
isolated people
28:40
don't have the money to your point I'm really you know me it's
28:44
just me I have no
28:45
children no you know I live alone no pets I'm just an island I
28:50
have a partner for
28:52
SPEAKER_00: one year now on Friday congrats he stayed but yeah I
29:01
He uh but yeah I think it's really um it's it's a lot to do the
29:06
work it's so hard
29:08
to you know like to I can see why people don't and I've said
29:11
this to someone who's
29:12
a friend of mine who's been in this space for a long time I'm
29:15
like sometimes don't
29:16
you just wish you had oblivion like you just pretended you
29:19
didn't know all this
29:19
SPEAKER_00: stuff
29:22
The fact you know you need to go and do it makes it like 2023 I
29:26
was like oh god you
29:28
know like I'm really gonna have to dig in and do this now
29:30
because I know what I
29:30
should do and I did all to your point I did all the right
29:33
things I took time off my
29:35
business nearly went under because of it because I just was
29:37
doing the transactional
29:39
stuff like but I put myself first which I've never done ever um
29:43
and like you know
29:44
SPEAKER_00: but it's like oh it's such hard why is everything such hard work
29:49
yeah yeah but that's that's also very important to mention it
29:53
is not easy and so
29:54
when when you are and it's it's not easy to do the work around
29:58
grief it's not easy
29:59
to do self-growth work either and healing from childhood trauma
30:04
whatever you've
30:04
been through you know all of that self-healing self-growth
30:08
self-development however
30:09
SPEAKER_01: you want to call it that journey of
30:12
Feeling Better in Life it's hard it is difficult and I think we
30:19
need most of the
30:20
people that listen to this podcast and work with me are doing
30:25
the work and I want
30:26
to take this moment to really like take it in and give yourself
30:30
a tap on the
30:31
SPEAKER_01: shoulder because you are you are being brave you're doing
30:34
amazingly for just choosing to do the work and yes sometimes it
30:38
shows up at really
30:40
messy and and it's hard and you don't want to do it and other
30:44
times it's maybe a
30:46
bit better but but you're doing it that's the path you're
30:49
walking the path and
30:50
that's just amazing and that's the point right I don't think
30:53
there's never this
30:55
circle this is like the full circle back to your original
30:57
question which is I don't
30:58
SPEAKER_00: think there's ever a point where
31:01
I think I'm in the era right now where I feel like I've done so
31:05
much and I've the
31:07
last couple of years particularly and friends that are close to
31:09
me and people that
31:11
work for me now I have a bigger team again and my partner etc
31:16
like people know I've
31:16
done all my family know that I've done like the last couple of
31:19
years I went really
31:20
intense on all of that stuff and now I'm kind of at the point
31:22
where I'm done I'm
31:24
just here like I'm not I don't need any I just want like I'm
31:28
good and I think
31:29
SPEAKER_00: there'll be a point again where you you've
31:31
you start to pick stuff back up again I think you have to be
31:34
you have to be you
31:35
know I talked in my earlier podcast about the coaching way of
31:38
being and I think as
31:39
a human being you to your point of not rushing ahead and doing
31:43
stuff or just
31:44
actually being this is me and and I'm in a relationship now
31:49
with somebody who is so
31:51
polar opposite they're military they're in the military very
31:55
very different
31:56
I mean we are literally like this and um that has been such an
32:01
interesting way for
32:03
me to observe like also how difficult it is to be with some so
32:06
someone who's done
32:07
zero work and and has been through you know has been on you
32:14
know in in in and still
32:16
SPEAKER_00: in difficult situations and and war zones and whatever
32:20
and then you're someone like me who's done like all of this
32:23
deep work and actually
32:24
SPEAKER_00: it's probably quite,
32:25
SPEAKER_00: it is not annoying,
32:26
SPEAKER_00: but for someone who's constantly like trying to,
32:30
SPEAKER_00: let's explore this,
32:31
SPEAKER_00: what does it,
32:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:32
SPEAKER_00: it must be like,
32:33
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
32:35
SPEAKER_00: it's just an argument,
32:37
SPEAKER_00: Ruth,
32:37
SPEAKER_00: right?
32:37
Okay,
32:38
so I wrote about this in my Substack of the Week and I've never
32:41
written,
32:42
It's taken me time to be able to be open about that
32:46
relationship because it was
32:47
something for a long time I just really wanted to protect and
32:50
kind of cultivate but
32:52
really interesting to see the difference with somebody who is
32:56
in that world that
32:57
actually could do with lots of that or could have done with it
33:01
throughout their
33:01
career particularly as well but just it's very it's like it's
33:07
still taboo in that
33:08
SPEAKER_00: world right it's still very much taboo and
33:12
Sadly we see lots of grief and loss in that world still and
33:19
people who've taken
33:21
their own lives as well and I just think it's really tough like
33:24
it's tough to do
33:26
the work it's tough to be with somebody as they do the work too
33:29
right as a partner
33:30
of someone who's started to your point about why is it of
33:33
course it's a complex
33:34
grief right but that's why the support mechanism whether that's
33:39
a friend a family
33:40
SPEAKER_00: member
33:41
Yes you need your professionals but you need other people
33:43
around you and I think
33:44
that can also be really hard it's really isolating to do it on
33:47
your own and it's
33:50
not easy to support someone who is doing that because they're
33:53
finding out things
33:54
about themselves that were always there or might have you know
33:59
like to your point
34:00
SPEAKER_00: childhood trauma or life experience that have inadvertently
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Subconsciously made decisions for them, behaviours have come about.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: That's why we say as well,
34:10
SPEAKER_00: the fact you've not unpacked it,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: don't think that doesn't mean it's not influencing you somehow.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
34:17
That's like an argument I can have with the older generations
34:19
like any day,
34:20
SPEAKER_01: like,
34:20
SPEAKER_00: oh,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: why do you need to go to the past?
34:22
SPEAKER_00: Because you have to.
34:24
It's not because you don't speak about it that it's not
34:27
impacting you and the
34:29
SPEAKER_01: people around you.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
34:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:32
SPEAKER_01: you have to do it for your children,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: for the people around you,
34:35
SPEAKER_01: for humanity.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing that.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: A last question for today.
34:42
Let's think a bit of the people who maybe are in the thick of
34:46
it right now.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe they've lost someone, maybe they're a season of difficulty and
34:53
they're in business so they still have to keep going maybe the
34:56
breadwinner like I
34:57
am yeah um so they still have to send those sales emails they
35:01
still have to show up
35:02
for their clients etc what would you actually say to them
35:06
what's possible when
35:09
falling apart is not an option so two things that's a really
35:18
good question actually
35:20
SPEAKER_00: um
35:20
So there's two things I would say to this one is figure out
35:25
what your I want to say
35:27
bare minimum is like what is your trans like I said I described
35:30
it before as
35:31
transactional so I kept myself I have you know solar no savings
35:37
like to kind of
35:39
like delve into to pay for that to keep the business going so
35:43
in that time between
35:44
SPEAKER_00: summer of 2023 and probably spring of 2024 so almost a year
35:50
But just think about like what are you doing to that is your
35:53
bare minimum that
35:54
SPEAKER_00: keeps yourself afloat,
35:55
SPEAKER_00: right?
35:55
And find ways as much as you can that you work with your own
36:00
energy levels and kind
36:01
SPEAKER_00: of like how best that suits you.
36:03
And this is where the load of self-compassion comes around the
36:07
days that you really
36:07
SPEAKER_00: struggle,
36:08
the days you need to have a lie down or the days that you just
36:10
think I can't do it.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: There's also something about how do you nudge yourself,
36:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:15
your behavioural activation to kick your own butt a little bit
36:18
because you still
36:19
SPEAKER_00: need to do that,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: right?
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And maybe it is,
36:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to send five emails and log off and that's,
36:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:24
SPEAKER_00: set yourself some doable targets around that.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really important and it's not easy.
36:31
look into ways that you can support yourself I mean I could
36:34
have you know taken
36:36
time off and I've got policies that pay for stuff and things
36:38
like that but I felt I
36:39
was capable of doing that and a transactional level and then
36:43
again is is making
36:45
sure you've got that support um so that professional support as
36:51
well I think it's
36:52
good to have that that you can have a non-judgmental space to
36:56
offload because I
36:57
SPEAKER_00: think we were chatting about this off-air but
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Like friends and family are amazing,
37:02
SPEAKER_00: partners are amazing,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: all the people that love and care for us.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: But also to the point of sometimes it is
37:09
how much can they take how much time and energy do they have
37:12
respectfully like you
37:14
know as much as we want to be there for people and we do
37:16
everyone has their own
37:17
boundaries everyone has their own limits right because life is
37:20
complex and busy for
37:21
everybody and that's not to say people aren't there for you but
37:24
I think when you're
37:25
paying and this is the point you're paying for someone you're
37:27
paying for a
37:28
SPEAKER_00: therapist counselor a coach whoever that is in your world
37:32
SPEAKER_00: that can give you a space to unpack just to get stuff out,
37:35
SPEAKER_00: put yourself back together and keep moving,
37:37
feel like you're moving forwards on that journey at the same
37:41
time as just trying to
37:42
SPEAKER_00: keep money coming in.
37:45
It's never easy being self-employed and I think this is
37:47
probably one of the biggest things about
37:50
and you know I have this financial setup and privilege to be
37:53
able to do it that if
37:54
something happens to me long term I can you know get somebody
37:56
else in to cover etc
37:58
but I think we have to be women particularly are really bad at
38:01
this as well so how
38:03
do you know if something happens in the future how you know so
38:08
for those who are
38:08
also going through it now but in the future how do you prepare
38:12
yourself for this
38:13
SPEAKER_00: like what's your
38:14
strategy and you know maybe maybe it's even paying for like
38:19
I've had assistants all
38:21
of this time like you know in EA and just having somebody that
38:24
can field emails or
38:26
SPEAKER_00: can go back to people on your behalf somebody that you can work really
38:29
collaboratively with is really helpful as well and that's not
38:33
always possible again
38:34
depending on how much you earn but actually that kind of
38:37
support is really that
38:39
SPEAKER_00: gatekeeper and just
38:41
on the days that you are really struggling who can just hold
38:44
the fort for you a little bit.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: That's huge as well.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for that.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: I know that for me,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: I said that,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:57
I coped by going back to my business and recreating it and
39:00
reinventing it.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: You were talking earlier about that kick in the butt.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: To me, that was a kick in the butt.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: And it felt, it gave me a sense of control.
39:08
and it's interesting because I was talking with people at that
39:11
time that were
39:12
saying you know but you've gone through this you need to maybe
39:15
just okay maybe wait
39:17
a bit or or get get a real job a nine-to-five job because at
39:23
least you're not with
39:24
the uncertainty of how you're going you know but I want to work
39:28
from home I want to
39:29
work online and it's not so easy today so I did try that route
39:33
you know and I was
39:34
SPEAKER_01: like
39:35
I'm applying to lots of things I'm it's not giving me results
39:42
and I'm just waiting
39:44
for something outside to come and save me really and I I'm
39:49
gonna save myself you
39:51
know like I'm that's it I'm gonna make my I'm gonna go back and
39:55
so that really
39:55
really helped me somehow to have this gold even you know I know
40:01
I could have given
40:01
SPEAKER_01: myself more space etc etc but
40:03
SPEAKER_01: But I think it really helped me to pick me up from the floor.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: When I say the floor, it's not an image.
40:09
I spent two weeks on the floor with meditation in my ears and I
40:15
was just doing this
40:16
SPEAKER_01: grief protocol and talking to my dad and angels.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: People thought I was going crazy because I was talking about angels.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: And I would do that three to four hours per day.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: It's the only thing I could do.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: I put my kids in front of TV and I was on the floor like that.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: And I was sometimes crying, sometimes not.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, and then work picked me up, you know, really.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: And I want to add this thing,
40:43
SPEAKER_01: like,
40:44
because we've been through it and my partner as well has been
40:47
through grief.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: We know what it's like.
40:48
We know how it's really stressful if you have to worry about
40:52
money in these moments.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: It's really opened our eyes.
40:56
because you know we're in this generation a bit of YOLO I think
40:59
we're like you know
40:59
what we need to have like death insurance and life insurance
41:04
yeah to make sure like
41:05
if if something happens to me of course everyone will be
41:09
already in a terrible you
41:12
SPEAKER_01: know emotional challenge they might as well not have to worry about
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Covering for what I would have brought for a certain amount of time.
41:24
You know,
41:24
I'm talking here for people who have families and even
41:28
partners.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really,
41:29
SPEAKER_01: it really,
41:30
SPEAKER_01: this is my way of like,
41:31
SPEAKER_01: okay,
41:31
SPEAKER_01: I can't control if I'm gone or not,
41:33
SPEAKER_01: but I'm doing this for my family in case something happens.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: I love the idea of like, one, I love the fact that that worked for you.
41:39
Like this is the thing about healing,
41:43
grieving,
41:44
just being like finding if it works for you,
41:48
Don't question it right if it's healthy like if it's a form of
41:50
coping and it helps
41:52
you like that's amazing I love that and that's definitely
41:55
that's kind of the stuff
41:56
that I would do and secondly I love the fact you found like it
41:59
gave you a purpose
42:00
and I think sometimes that's what we do need and that is
42:03
literally what I did do at
42:04
the end of I was in such this state of like everything was
42:07
burning to the ground in
42:08
2023 and I was like this makes a perfect time I don't I had a
42:12
grief a loss of
42:13
SPEAKER_00: identity as well and actually I took a very well-established
42:17
consultancy with lots you know 20 odd people everyone went
42:22
business really changed
42:23
its name and my friend actually saw a friend last week for
42:25
lunch I haven't seen for
42:26
about a year and she said that was the bravest thing she's so
42:29
many people wouldn't
42:30
have done that like literally went to all my major clients and
42:32
said look I'm gonna
42:34
rebrand it's just gonna be me from for a bit if you want to
42:37
leave leave and these
42:38
are big corporates and they were all like it's all you know no
42:41
it's fine don't
42:42
SPEAKER_00: worry we've got your back and
42:44
started 2024 first of Jan was just me and um that was like huge
42:49
but if you like I
42:51
don't know I just felt that was everything else you know the
42:54
the phoenix and the
42:55
ashes I just had that image it was very much like it was like
42:58
everything's just on
42:59
fire let's just set the whole you know you just think oh you
43:01
don't have a choice
43:02
SPEAKER_01: yeah from you can't go down anymore so let's just go for it
43:08
and actually that made sense to me and I think but that gave me
43:12
it really ignited
43:13
SPEAKER_00: my sense of like and but then the 2024 to 2026 has been very much like
43:19
an embryonic kind of figuring out what's next and still in that
43:23
phase that took two
43:25
it's taken two years for me to really feel like this year was
43:28
okay I'm back like
43:29
this feels good I feel good like it doesn't happen overnight
43:33
right of course we
43:34
just we want the quick fix it just doesn't it doesn't exist
43:37
like no and we
43:38
shouldn't wait for it let's just walk imperfectly forward
43:42
you'll figure it out at
43:43
some point and and when you figure it out for me that's that's
43:46
my life pattern you
43:47
SPEAKER_01: figure it out and then you're like
43:48
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
43:49
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm going to do something.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: But that's another topic.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: I've loved this conversation.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: It's been so much fun.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: We were like, it's going to be 25 minutes.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: In the end, we just chatted.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: But it's also part of the vibe I want for this podcast as well.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: It's conversations more than just like,
44:09
SPEAKER_01: oh,
44:09
SPEAKER_01: it's an interview and it's so polished and everything.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: No, it's like we're having a coffee chat and people can...
44:15
SPEAKER_01: can listen to that.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: And I really felt like we've connected today.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's been so lovely.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: No, I just really enjoyed it.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
44:23
Thank you for your time,
44:24
for your wisdom,
44:25
for all your heart that you brought to the table.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: I'll put all of your links in the replay description.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: If you're listening to the podcast,
44:33
SPEAKER_01: you can find Ruth's links in the description of the podcast as well.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: And well, have a wonderful rest of your day.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: yes you too thank you so much for having me my pleasure bye