Latest / Wander the World with Pippa Hudson / Wander the World: Founder of Bradt Travel Guides on her autobiography

Transcript

Wander the World: Founder of Bradt Travel Guides on her autobiography · Wander the World with Pippa Hudson

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: You're with Cape Talk. Listen is Papa Hutton on lunch.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Let's go and do some armchair travel and in wonder
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: the world today. We are really privileged to have an
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: absolute legend of travel publishing with us in studio, Hillary Brutt.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: If you ever found yourself somewhere off the beaten path
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: and in the days before the internet particularly reached for
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: a guide book to help you, the chances are it
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: might have been one of Hillary's that you used, because
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: just over fifty years ago she and her then husband
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: George wrote their first guide book, A Little Typewritten Guide
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: to Trekking in Peru and Bolivia, And all these years later,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Bratt travel guides are known around the world. It is,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: in fact the biggest independently owned travel publishing outfit in
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: the UK and US in particular. And Hillary has had
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: an extraordinary life that has taken her to every nook
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and cranny of this planet. Just about She's just released
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: her own autobiography called Taking the Risk My Adventures in
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Travel and Publishing, and she is he with us in
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: studio today. What a privilege, and welcome to Cape Talk.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Peppa.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Obviously, the book is full of incredible stories from the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: jungle journeys to the early days of publishing, to places
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: that many people won't even have heard of. So there's
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of grant for us to cover today. So
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: if listeners have questions, by the way, you are welcome
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: to ask them on the WhatsApp line O seven two
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: five six seven one five six seven or to call
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: in on two one four four six five six seven. Hell,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: we take us back to that first book in nineteen
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: seventy four. I don't even know if book is the
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: right word. I believed it was a hand stapled guide book.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Is that true it was?
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I mean people called it a pamphlet, which we thought
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: was very rude because we thought it was a proper book.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: But we we wrote it because we've been trekking in
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: uh well, backpacking in Peru and Bolivia, and no one
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: else was knew where to go. There was no information then.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And it was really prompted because we found this trail,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: this faint trail from near Cusco to machu Picchu which
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: is now the Inca Trail and very famous, and we
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: walked it and people we met said, you really must
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: describe this in print, and so we wrote this little
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: book we described, I think it was five different tracks,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: and we wrote it on a river barge going down
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: at Trevitary of the Amazon. And George, my husband is dyslexic,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: my ben husband, and so he sent it to his
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: mother to retype with proper spelling. Actually she didn't do
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: a particularly good job with ther spelling and pretty bad
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: spelling mistakes. But it's sold because and actually as she
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: it was stabled, and that she had it printed in
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Boston because George's Americans. She lived in Boston, and people
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: wanted more. So it started the publishing company Amazing.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, obviously there was a demand for the
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: product that you spotted, and your whole life trajectory got
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: changed in that moment because Hillary, I know you were
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: an eager traveler and an enthusiastic traveler, but I think
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: somebody told me you were going to be an occupational
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: therapist or something like that.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: Initially I was.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: That's what took me to South Africa to Cape Town
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four because I needed to work, you know,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: I needed a job, and I worked at a hospital
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: called CONRADI that dealt with spinal cord gentry and it
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: was honestly, I can say, truthly the most rewarding job
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I've ever had an occupational therapy. It was absolutely terrific.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And so I was a year and a half in
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Cape Town, which obviously was very different. You know, that
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: was the height of aparthe eight, but I must say
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: we absolutely loved it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Fantastic.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of the snippet of the
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: story that has a South African connection to it. It'll
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: be one thing to go from having one successful to
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: a guide based on the trick that you've done, but
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: quite another to build the travel publishing empire that followed
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and the string of guidebooks that have helped people on
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: just about every continent ever since. Did it sort of
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: happen organically? Did you say, well, the first one worked,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: let's go somewhere else and try it again, or did
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: you realize early on that this was something you were
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: going to expand into a major organization and a sort
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: of a planet spreading span of books. Well, certainly not
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: the latter. Everything happened accidentally. We did know we'd do
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: a second book. The first one was about hiking in
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: South America, so we're very keen to do a similar one.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: On Africa. After our stay in Cape Town, we traveled
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: from Cape Town Takaro over land with quite a few zigzags,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: always looking for new hiking routes and new places to
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: walk that obviously also seeing what we could, you know,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: a wonderful wildlife and just everything about Africa in those days.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: And it was only we then did another very simple
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: book and actually we couldn't We never had any money,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: so we couldn't afford to print the books because it's
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: very expensive printing books, and so George went to work
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: for a printer. He was a very bad employee, I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: seem to think, I seem to remember him being ending
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: up on the pavement with several boxes of books. Yeah,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: but he was paid in books, not money. So we
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: got our backpack of Africa and the second edition of
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Peru and Bolivia.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Did you stick with the approach of very simple travel,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: of doing a lot on foot, of backpacking and hiking
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: and sort of do it to yourself travel or over
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: the years, did you start allowing yourselves a little bit
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: more luxury as you established the business and the brand
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: grew luxury?
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: No, never, Oka, we did.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: We stuck to our guns. I mean not very profitable
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: guns of always doing hiking guides. So after after Africa,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: we did North America and then all the rest of
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: not all the rest of South America, but four other
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: South American guides, and then we started a branch out.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: We realized that actually, you know, if we wanted to
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: make a living, it had to be more general guides.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: And also we started recruiting other writers and commissioning other writers,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: and just gradually it's expanded. We've now got more than
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: two hundred books on the oil list, and obviously I'm
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: now semi retard. I'm still involved, but semi retard.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I bet there are listeners who have those books on
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: their shelves, and I would love to hear from anybody
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: who has traveled with a Brack travel guide. Which one
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: did you take with you where? And what was invaluable
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: about the advice contained in that book that changed the
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: way you experienced that holiday or expedition. If you would
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: like to share with us, please do you send a
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: WhatsApp to seven two five six seven one five six
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: seven Hilary. I don't want to preempt the book because
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: listeners was going by copy for themselves to read all
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: the spectacular adventures contained therein. But let's just share one
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: or two anecdotes with the audience. I mean, are there
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: any adventures or particular trips that either went wrong in
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: some way or which completely surprised you that turned out
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: to be something you really weren't expecting them to be
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: When you look back on all the places you've been to.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you keep account on
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: the number of countries visited or anything like that, but
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: which ones stand out for the unexpected or the strange
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: things that happened on the way.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Well, an awful lot went wrong just traveling through Africa
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: in the seventies. It was a very different continent. We
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: were arrested three times, which was irritating, and that two
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I think the stories are a bit too long to
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: tell here, but we made the mistake of trying to
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: go to a botanical garden in n Tebbe in Uganda
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six, and older listeners will remember the
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Untee Ra. Yes, we were arrested, were held. It was
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: very frightening. Actually we were held under machine gun guard
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: for three hours and I really did wonder what was
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: going to happen to us. But the chap was supposed
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: to come and interview us had run out of petrol,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: and so the guard said, William must turn yourselves into
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: the police station. This is how you walk to it,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and they'll interview you. But we didn't. We went back
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: to our hotel and we packed up very quickly, and
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: then we left the country enough.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't ask you to name a favorite destination,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: because I'm sure that would be like asking somebody to
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: choose between their favorite children. But of all the places
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: that you have been, are there a couple that you
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: have wanted to go back to multiple times because either
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: you felt you didn't have a chance to explore everything
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: theyre offered, or because they just captured your heart in somewhere.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: The one that's really captured my heart is Madagascar. And
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: I did the first Guide to Madoascar it's now in
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: it's thirteenth edition, and I led tours to Madagascar for
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: several years and I do absolutely love it.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: It's the most gorgeous country. It's one of my favorite
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: sister destinations as well, and take a little bit of it,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: but it was extraordinary. Just for anybody who's come into
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: this conversation midway, Hillary Bratt with me, who is the
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: co founder of the Brat Travel Guides. And if you
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: have traveled in the last how many years is it
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: more than fifty years, you might well have taken along
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: one of their guides to help you in that process.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: And I do hope we'll hear from anybody who has
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: done so about where they went and what they saw.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: In terms of general travel advice, I mean, everybody has
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: their own way of doing it, and their own degree
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: of luxury that they look for and the kind of destination.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Some people like the city scape, some like to be
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: in the bush away from it all. But are there
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: common threads in terms of things that you feel make
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: travel easier. Are there sort of golden rules in terms
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: of how you pack and what you take or what
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: you don't take with you?
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: Hillary that over the years you have refined to a
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: fine art. Not really.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I always say, you know, if you're traveling, if you're backpack,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: if you're traveling adventurously, the most useful thing is a
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: strong legal and dental floss, because you can mend anything
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: from the tent to your boots to clothes may not
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: look very beautiful. I think just travel with an open mind.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: You know, try not to compare it with your own culture,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: with your own way of life, and be open minded.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: And you know, there's no point in traveling unless you're
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: open minded, because otherwise you're looking for home in another
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: country and that's not what's the point.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, South Africa.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: You also trying not to think about the exchange rate
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: too much while you're out there on the brand.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: I'll add to that.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Any destinations you think are completely underrated that really people
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: should go and visit. I mean, you've already mentioned Madagascar,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: but are there others that almost hesitate to say this
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: because sometimes those lovely undiscovered places are beautiful because they're undiscovered.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: But are there any that you would flag that you
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: really think should have become a bigger travel destination than
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: they have.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's more the less known places in well
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: known countries. I mean, you know, Peru, for instance, which
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I've been back many, many times, something like twenty five
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: times as a tour leader. Everyone goes to Costco and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: natchal Fezu. Very few people go to the north of Peru,
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: which is actually astoning with some wonderful pre and ca
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: ruins quae Lap, fantastic wildlife and my person now is
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: wildlife because it's so chancey. And I told you earlier,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: I hope that I'm seeing pangolins on this trip in
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: the Kalaharis.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: You will be so lucky if you do, because they
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: are incredibly elusive.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: But I really really wish for you that.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: You might hillary And if you do, it'll be just
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: an enormous privilege because they are so rare to see.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: In all of my years of travel, I've never ever
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: seen one. I was talking about this at a panglin
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: conservation roundtable just last week, and it's a good segue
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: into the conversation about responsible travel because one of the
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: things we were talking about that evening was how do
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: you manage the visitor imprint on the place that they
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: are visiting, And when it comes to panglism Langulan tourism,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: it's about very careful management of how you engage the
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: distance you keep discouraging people wanted to pick up the
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: panglins and take selfies with them is apparently a big problem.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, have you come across places or examples, let's say,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: either way, places that have handled the idea of responsible
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: visitor experiences particularly well or particularly badly for that matter.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: No, that's a very good question. I think that the
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: key thing in responsible travel is vulnerable people, vulnerable tribal
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: groups or whatever, are much more in danger of irresponsible
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: tourism than most wildlife because wildlife, and this is a
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: very general statement, in national parks or reserves tends to
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: become used to used to tourists, used to visitors, whereas
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: people are so vulnerable to tourists will meaning tourists giving
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: them presents, you know, giving them money, giving them sweets
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: or whatever. But the point about wildlife is everyone now
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: is so pushy in the way they want to see wildlife.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And I subscribe to Africa Geographic, which is a wonderful publication,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and they did a piece recently about the Masai Maara
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: migration with the wilderby's and how cars are blocking the
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: river there, you know, so that the wilder bees can't
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: cross and their usual crossing place, and it's irresponsible tour
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: operators perhaps and guides who are letting tourists do that,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: and sometimes the tourists will do a bigger tip. You know.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Walthy tourism is now much more happening, much more than
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: it was in my.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Sure yeah, I mean it's a huge I know, the
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: management of whale watching tourism in South Africa, for example,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: there's something that's got to be monitored so carefully and
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: managed so careful. We have strict rules in place about
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: the distance that is meant to be kept, and yet
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: how often have I seen those photographs of Look, there
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: was a whale right next to our boat. I'm thinking
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: that's not anywhere near the one hundred meters it was
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: meant to be, for example. So I take your point.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Hillary.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Michelle has written in to say I used Hillary's book
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: on Madagascar, loved the country, and the book is full
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: of hilarious notes from leeches to local taxis. You could
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: write a book about the local taxis in Madagascar. Just
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: them alone, Michelle would be enough to fill a book.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I can take your point on that one, So thank
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: you for that. What advice would you give Hillary to
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: somebody who's always dreamt of packing a bag and heading
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: off to do something exciting, but it's just.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Never found the courage to do it. Do you think
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: it's ever too late to start?
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: No, it is a just do it. We published an
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: anthology Unfortunate. It's a to print though but it might
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: be available second hand. In fact, I think it is
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: called Rome Alone, and it was written specifically for people
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: who've been nervous about traveling on their own, but maybe
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: they're widowed or they split up with their partner or
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: whatever reason. And it's different stories of different travelers who've
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: been nervous. You know, sat in the ladies in Heathrow
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: just crying with nerves and then had an absolutely fabulous trip.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And one of the best quotes from there that someone
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: told me was feel the fear and do it anyway.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: And I think that's perfect because it is. You know,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: we're all nervous traveling, you know. I'm certainly still never
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: especially airports, you know, and what stupid thing will I do?
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: And will I lose my passport? But on the whole
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: it's always more exciting than better than you could ever imagine.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I love that, feel the fear and do it anyway.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And I have quoted this before, but one of the
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: fastest growing categories of tourism globally is solo female travelers,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: right it is, which is so exciting. I've done it
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: a couple of times myself. I'm planning my next solo
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: trip and as much as I love traveling with my
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: husband and my kids, there is something very very special
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: about doing it alone. And as you say, finding the
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: courage to just go out there and do it just
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: adds another dimension to the trip. I highly highly recommended.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Also, I think just just butting in. We always think
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: we're more vulnerable and more riskless women. I don't think
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: that's true, because sometimes you can play the vulnerability card.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And you know that, I was traveling alone in Colombia
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: on quite a lot of Latin America, and people wanted
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: to look after me, you know, and they were lovely people.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I met the most terrific people who just, oh no,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: you know, you must come and stay with me. Oh no,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: it's much to risk of you to find a hotel
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: on your own. So you can either be I can
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: be very tough and look after myself, or I can
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: be a little bit vulnerable if it.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: If it sits the right thing, and I bet in
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: cases like that, as you say, you're opening yourself to
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: another layer of experience when you let other people in
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: in that way. Let's talk a little bit about that,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: about the experience of the ordinary person in a place
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: that you go to visit, because absolutely, you can go
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and stay in a hotel and do a guided tour
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: and see the sights of a place. But often it
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: is the small It's the cup of coffee you share
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: with somebody in a cafe, or the person that you
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: meet who changes the experience and just add another layer
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: to that travel.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: How much of your.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Enjoyment of travel over the years hillary has been about
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: the people you've engaged with versus the places that you
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: have been to.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: It's been very much the people. I'm quite naturally shy,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: and actually George was such an extra art. We traveled
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: beautifully together because he would make the friends. You know,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I would value these new friends enormously, but I held
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: back a little with the social engagement, whereas he always
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: reached out. And I mean the book is full of
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: an of just you know, wonderful, surprising people that we met.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: And yeah, you know there's one thing and I described
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: in the book, but one meeting which is was just
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: so special because we were having a really horrible trip
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: through the night in I can't even remember. I think
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: it was what's now Congo was then Zaire, and the
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: driver was really horrid. He wanted to put us off
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: in the middle of a wilderness, so we paid more money,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: you know, all the usual thing. And so we were
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: having a really unpleasant trip and we were very cold
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: in the back of a pickup truck. And then he
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: stopped for a long time, but half an hour outside
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: a house. We're sure he was seeing his girlfriend. But
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I remember, and I described in the book, I saw
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: him silhouetted in the doorway carrying two mugs and they
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: were full of hot milk that he handed the George
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: and me a and that's you know, it makes me
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: choke up just thinking of it, because he'd been so
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: unpleasant and it was his It's all all right, we're friends.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: And those are the moments you remember for the rest
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: of your life, even if you can't necessarily remember which
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: which temple you visited or sight you saw, it's those
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: moments of contact. Having said that, one of our listeners
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: would like to know, is there anyway you would never
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: go again, that you had such a terrible experience you've
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: had never to go back?
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I I three years ago. I would have said Egypt,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: because it was right at the end of our trip,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and it was the Egyptians were very lustful, let's say,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and we were traveling third class trains and they'd literally
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: come pouring in through the windows, through the doors and
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: try and grab any part of me. It was really unpleasant,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: and we'd almost run out of money by then. We've
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: been traveling for eleven months, and so I hated the Egyptians.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Actually I loved Egypt. I loved the ancient Egypt. But
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I went back to go to the island of Socotra,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: which is absolutely, you know, my number one super place
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: to go, which we can talk about a minute, and
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: stayed in Caro. Absolutely love the Egyptians, love Caro, loved everything.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: But it it's so good getting older. You know, this
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is something I keep stressing. You know, you're not a
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: target for all the sexual advances, and that does make
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: things so much easier.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Sartah writ again to say, my daughter traveled on her
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: own to South America and North America when she was
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: just eighteen. It was me who was nervous rather than her.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Sandra just saying, what a lovely guest you have today
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: and enjoying the conversation with you, Hillary, Sandra, thank you
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: for that. And I hope your daughter keeps on traveling
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: and enjoying the adventure. Okay, so just before we must
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: wrap up, Hillary, that island or for Egypt I'd never
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: heard of. Please tell us where to add to our
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: travel bucket list.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Just before we wrap up, in case we don't fit
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: it in, I am giving a talk at at Exclusive
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Books Cavendish at five point thirty today today. So I
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: want all the people who are enjoying the talking now
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: come come to that talk.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Please please do because then okay, well we will leave
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: it to you to go into detail about the island.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: It was it?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Sicatra, you Sicatra, You'll have to go to Cavendish tonight
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: to find out, or to go and get hold of
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: a copy of Hillary's autobiography called Taking the Risk My
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Adventures in Travel and publishing. Well from all of the
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: travelers that you have helped to guide through the experience,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: to get them there safely, to make sure they didn't
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: miss all the amazing spaces and people. I think that's
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: fifty years worth of thank yous to you. But my
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: last question, which we must wrap up our Hillary, is
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: way too Next you're still traveling.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Do you have the next destination already in sight?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Not? Really? You know, seeing pangolins and it is a
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: rescue operation. So that's why I'm optimistic. That has been
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: my before I die thing. It's the only thing on
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: my bucket list. Who knows, you know, Soicotra I didn't
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: expect to go to, and then I suddenly thought, must
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: do that before I die. So you know, as long
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: as I don't die too soon, I probably will go
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to other places.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: And please keep on telling the rest of us about
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: them once you've done the initial expiration for us, Hillary Brite,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: a real pleasure to have.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: You on the show today.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, and may you continue to wander
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: the world with joy and a sense of adventure.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: It's been a real delight chatting to you on the show.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Pepper