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Is Jordan Walker back..? Can Gorman get going? ABS, Leahy, and bullpen · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
0:12
Speaker 1: And guess what, it's media Day. No professional athletes with
0:17
Speaker 1: me today. Fan favorite John Dennon of Roundtable Sports. I
0:24
Speaker 1: always say fan favorite because people love that Johnny. They
0:27
Speaker 1: love Jeff Jones too. Jeff of Thebelleville News Democrat also
0:31
Speaker 1: has a new blog called Words about Birds, and if
0:35
Speaker 1: you haven't seen, you should check it out because it's
0:37
Speaker 1: a really good thing. Now here's the thing, guys, if
0:40
Speaker 1: you like Cardinal Territory, maybe you want some merch, right
0:45
Speaker 1: and we have plenty of merch we're talking about We're
0:49
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0:51
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1:03
Speaker 1: of a little business right there, fellas. All right, before we
1:06
Speaker 1: start pushing more product, let's talk baseball. So, John, we're
1:11
Speaker 1: four games into the season in terms of the Cardinals.
1:15
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you can glean from this small
1:19
Speaker 1: sample size?
1:21
Speaker 2: First off, I want to know why there's not a
1:23
Speaker 2: Jim Katayes T shirt in the merchandise. I mean, that's
1:26
Speaker 2: that that would be a fan favorite. Definitely that a
1:29
Speaker 2: lot of people would be buying that lining up for it, Jim.
1:32
Speaker 2: What I've gleaned from these first four games. Finally, after
1:36
Speaker 2: long last four years of waiting, the Cardinals have Jordan
1:39
Speaker 2: Walker and Nolan Gorman hitting at the same time. For
1:43
Speaker 2: three and a half years, the franchise has said, if
1:45
Speaker 2: Walker hits, if Gorman hits, they can be back in
1:48
Speaker 2: the playoff hunt. They can be that team that can
1:51
Speaker 2: be to have a dynamic offense.
1:52
Speaker 3: Again.
1:53
Speaker 2: Both those guys are mashing the ball right now. Give
1:56
Speaker 2: Casey Chinnaw and Brent Brown, Brandon Allen, give those guys
1:59
Speaker 2: credit because they have them both. They're not overswinging, they're
2:02
Speaker 2: not pulling off the balls. Jordan Walker hitting a change
2:06
Speaker 2: up on the outside corner for a home run was
2:08
Speaker 2: a huge sign of growth. He wasn't flying open, he
2:11
Speaker 2: stayed on the pitch. He drove it over the wall.
2:15
Speaker 2: Nolan Gorman is not swinging from the heels. He's cut
2:18
Speaker 2: down on his swing and miss. That's the overriding thing
2:21
Speaker 2: that I've taken out of these first four games. Those
2:23
Speaker 2: two guys are mashing the baseball at the same time, that's.
2:27
Speaker 1: A good place to start. So, Jeff, when I talked
2:29
Speaker 1: to Brian Brown about Jordan Walker, who's off to a
2:32
Speaker 1: three eighty five start. Everything the Denton said plus just
2:35
Speaker 1: one strikeout so far this season, pretty pretty good. So
2:40
Speaker 1: Brand said, it's the great compromise, right. They let him
2:43
Speaker 1: go back to the swing that he was comfortable with,
2:47
Speaker 1: with some slight body changes that the data has said,
2:53
Speaker 1: we'll put him in a better position to see the baseball.
2:57
Speaker 1: So what do you know about this great compromise? What
3:00
Speaker 1: are you seeing from Jordan Walker?
3:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think that the way that you
3:04
Speaker 4: should kind of look at how the process is manifesting.
3:07
Speaker 4: And I guess the first thing to say is that
3:09
Speaker 4: it's not going to be linear.
3:10
Speaker 3: Right.
3:10
Speaker 4: They're gonna be at bats where Jordan Walker is going
3:13
Speaker 4: to look a little more like his old self. There
3:14
Speaker 4: are going to be times where the old habits kind
3:16
Speaker 4: of sink in. That's how it works. But when you
3:18
Speaker 4: look at the home run that he hit against the
3:20
Speaker 4: Raised over the weekend, the change up with John is
3:22
Speaker 4: talking about from Steven Mattz. Obviously, Stephen mats is a
3:24
Speaker 4: guy who knows Jordan Walker pretty well, right, former teammate
3:27
Speaker 4: has been around for the duration of Walker's career understands
3:30
Speaker 4: sort of the challenges he's had in his swing. And
3:32
Speaker 4: you look at the way that Matt's pitched him. It
3:34
Speaker 4: was change ups, it was soft away, and then it
3:37
Speaker 4: was sinkers in underneath fans, which is pretty much exactly
3:41
Speaker 4: the way that you would approach Jordan Walker over the
3:44
Speaker 4: course of his career thus far. And you know, the
3:47
Speaker 4: thing has always been with him whether or not the
3:50
Speaker 4: pitch recognition improves. If he doesn't have tools to force
3:54
Speaker 4: pitchers to get back into the zone, then he's not
3:57
Speaker 4: going to see fastballs on the inter half. He's not
3:59
Speaker 4: going to see balls, and he's going to be able
4:00
Speaker 4: to do more damage. With the fact that he was
4:02
Speaker 4: able to take that change up from Mass and deposit
4:05
Speaker 4: it where he did to the pole side, even in
4:08
Speaker 4: the air, hit for a home run, that is at
4:10
Speaker 4: least a signal to the rest of the league that
4:13
Speaker 4: maybe he is not going to be quite so exploitable
4:16
Speaker 4: in that part of the pain, in that part of
4:17
Speaker 4: the plate rather because ultimately it's not like Jordan Walker
4:20
Speaker 4: has to hit every breaking pitch down and away for
4:23
Speaker 4: a Homer. What needs to happen is that he needs
4:25
Speaker 4: to be capable enough of doing that that it keeps
4:28
Speaker 4: pitchers off of that spot and gets him more fastballs
4:32
Speaker 4: closer to the heart of the plate that he can drive.
4:34
Speaker 4: And as long as he can be you know, he
4:36
Speaker 4: doesn't have to be a guy who hits four hundred
4:39
Speaker 4: and slugs seven hundred on pitches down and away. He
4:43
Speaker 4: has to be a guy who's representative there to get
4:45
Speaker 4: himself into a better hitting position.
4:47
Speaker 3: And so far you've seen that.
4:50
Speaker 1: What do we know about Jordan Walker? We know he's young,
4:54
Speaker 1: and we know he can hit because we saw it
4:55
Speaker 1: in this first year. Like I don't care what they
4:58
Speaker 1: say on Twitter, right we we saw a young guy
5:01
Speaker 1: who has a ton of upside what he could do
5:04
Speaker 1: when he was scratching the service. We also saw last
5:07
Speaker 1: year after he was at Double A working with the
5:09
Speaker 1: hitting coach there who's now on the major league staff,
5:12
Speaker 1: that he came up and hit for a while and
5:15
Speaker 1: then sort of regrets. So what does he have to
5:19
Speaker 1: do to stay where he is right now? Again, it's
5:21
Speaker 1: only four games, but he looks like a more confident
5:24
Speaker 1: and his swing certainly looks a lot smooth.
5:28
Speaker 2: He's got to not be stubborn like and Jordan is
5:30
Speaker 2: admitted in the past, like I've been stubborn. I've fought
5:33
Speaker 2: some of the things that they're saying because I don't
5:35
Speaker 2: feel comfortable. Listen to Brent Brown, like he's had a
5:38
Speaker 2: lot of success in this league knowing how to teach hitting.
5:42
Speaker 2: You mentioned Casey Chenniwe when the Cardinal sent him down
5:45
Speaker 2: last year. They didn't send him to Triple A. They
5:47
Speaker 2: send him to Double A so that he could work
5:49
Speaker 2: with Casey Chenniwe, who's in the big leagues now. So
5:52
Speaker 2: you know, like you said, it takes some give and take. Yes,
5:55
Speaker 2: Jordan wants to feel comfortable. He wants to feel instinct
5:58
Speaker 2: show in the box. He doesn't want to be thinking
6:00
Speaker 2: about all these mechanics. But you also have to listen
6:02
Speaker 2: to these guys because they know what they're talking about.
6:05
Speaker 2: And as long as there's a compromise there, good things
6:07
Speaker 2: can come out of this.
6:09
Speaker 1: That's a life lesson fellows. Right, Sometimes we got a compromise.
6:15
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Nolan Gorman, two homers, Jeff already and
6:20
Speaker 1: we see him kind of tapping into the power that
6:23
Speaker 1: we've seen before. Looks to be a lot more confident
6:28
Speaker 1: at the plate now, he told me. And I'm certainly
6:31
Speaker 1: not any sort of hitting guru, but he said the
6:33
Speaker 1: key for him is getting his plant foot down early.
6:37
Speaker 1: And he said early for me is never too early.
6:41
Speaker 1: Like that's the thing that he says puts his body
6:44
Speaker 1: in a position where he can drive the ball. And
6:47
Speaker 1: we're seeing it now. So what are you seeing in
6:49
Speaker 1: terms of his mechanics as he's driving the ball?
6:54
Speaker 4: Jeff, Yeah, you know the thing that stands out to
6:56
Speaker 4: me watching him last night, especially right before he read
6:59
Speaker 4: before where he hit the home run. We have all
7:02
Speaker 4: seen sort of from that high home view right what
7:04
Speaker 4: the swing looks like with Nolan Gorman.
7:06
Speaker 3: When it doesn't look good.
7:07
Speaker 4: You can sort of see what he's stepping way into
7:09
Speaker 4: the bucket way almost past the first baseline on that
7:13
Speaker 4: pull side. For him, the foot doesn't look quite comfortable
7:16
Speaker 4: and he comes flying open, flying off of stuff low
7:19
Speaker 4: on the zone, off of breaking pitches, off the change ups.
7:21
Speaker 4: And last night it struck me because he had one
7:24
Speaker 4: of those, He had one of those ugly looking swings
7:26
Speaker 4: where the plant was kind of early, the body flew open,
7:29
Speaker 4: he was over the top of a breaking pitch, and
7:32
Speaker 4: it was like, oh, that was a bad swing. But
7:34
Speaker 4: also it stood out to me that I hadn't seen
7:37
Speaker 4: that many of them, right, that was one of the
7:39
Speaker 4: very very few here in the first four games that
7:42
Speaker 4: I had seen. And so, you know, when we talk
7:44
Speaker 4: about Gorman being a guy who goes in streaks, part
7:47
Speaker 4: of the reason that that hitters go in streaks. It's
7:49
Speaker 4: not all bat and ball luck all the time. Part
7:52
Speaker 4: of the reason is that guys get either out of
7:54
Speaker 4: their mechanics or they get a little bit uncomfortable and
7:56
Speaker 4: they start relying on older bad habits. And so if Orman,
8:00
Speaker 4: like Walker, can sort of stack up those small mechanical
8:04
Speaker 4: changes to get him in just a slightly better hitting position,
8:07
Speaker 4: he gets to be a more consistent hitter, He gets
8:09
Speaker 4: to get to his his a swing more often, he
8:11
Speaker 4: gets to cover more of the zone. And you know,
8:14
Speaker 4: the footwork I think is a really interesting way for
8:17
Speaker 4: him to talk about that trigger, because that is what
8:19
Speaker 4: stands out to me just watching him from you know,
8:22
Speaker 4: from the fourth level up there where the press boxes
8:25
Speaker 4: added bush Stadium, directly above home plate, you can really
8:28
Speaker 4: see in his lower half when the swing is not
8:30
Speaker 4: pointed the right direction, and it stood out to me
8:33
Speaker 4: in its absence in the first few games of the season.
8:36
Speaker 4: When he saw one bad one, it really drew contrast
8:38
Speaker 4: with all the good ones.
8:40
Speaker 1: What do you think, Dan, you're watching him too.
8:43
Speaker 2: Unless don't discount maturity in this, like people forget he's
8:47
Speaker 2: still only twenty five years old. And Nolan Gorman said
8:50
Speaker 2: last night, he's like, I was studying the way that
8:53
Speaker 2: he attacked Alec Berlson. He was in the hole, he
8:56
Speaker 2: wasn't an on deck circle, but he was the next
8:58
Speaker 2: guy the Alec Burlison fastball, fastball change up. So Gorman
9:04
Speaker 2: gets fastball, fastball and he's like, okay, get ready for
9:07
Speaker 2: the changeup. Well, he threw him a cutter and he
9:11
Speaker 2: was able to react with his hands and hit that
9:13
Speaker 2: ball a long way. Don't let's not discount maturity in this.
9:16
Speaker 2: Like Nolan Gorman was a young guy, he's still only
9:19
Speaker 2: twenty five years old, and that says something about his maturity.
9:22
Speaker 2: That says something about his baseball IQ studying the bat
9:26
Speaker 2: two advats before him, the pattern that Clay Holmes got into,
9:30
Speaker 2: and then he got the same pattern and he hit
9:32
Speaker 2: it a mile. So you know, again he's had his struggles.
9:36
Speaker 2: He's gonna be super hot, sometimes a cold. Sometimes he's
9:40
Speaker 2: gonna fall out of his mechanics. But he's only twenty
9:43
Speaker 2: five and he's he's maturing as a hitter. He's coming
9:46
Speaker 2: into his body, and we all know if he can
9:48
Speaker 2: just make contact with the ball, there is raw power there.
9:51
Speaker 2: The ball flies. So cut down on that swing and
9:54
Speaker 2: miss and make more contact and the ball's gonna fly
9:56
Speaker 2: like this, flying like this.
9:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, JD.
9:59
Speaker 4: I'm really glad that you mention that about Burlison because
10:01
Speaker 4: I actually I wrote this morning for the paper about
10:04
Speaker 4: Gorman and about Walker and what they're doing in the
10:06
Speaker 4: early on, and that also really stood out to me too,
10:09
Speaker 4: the way he was talking about that only his hit that,
10:11
Speaker 4: but Burlison's at that right and that's the thing where
10:13
Speaker 4: whether or not he was doing it before, it was
10:15
Speaker 4: not a process he was necessarily sharing with us all
10:18
Speaker 4: the time. And so to hear him have that conversation
10:21
Speaker 4: and to consider sort of the construction of the lineup
10:23
Speaker 4: that allows him to do that, because Burlisson and Gorman
10:25
Speaker 4: are very different hitters and they're going to be pitched
10:27
Speaker 4: in pretty different ways. But if he can take away
10:31
Speaker 4: from the things that they're going to do to Burlis,
10:32
Speaker 4: especially in that spot right where Holmes is working third
10:35
Speaker 4: time through a lineup, so he's kind of reaching deeper
10:37
Speaker 4: into the bag of tricks, and he is showing things
10:40
Speaker 4: that maybe he hadn't shown the first two times through.
10:42
Speaker 4: But if he shows it to Burlson, he only has
10:44
Speaker 4: so much bag to reach into, right, And so Gorman
10:46
Speaker 4: can draw some some some really fair conclusions from that,
10:50
Speaker 4: And I agree that was a really interesting and really
10:52
Speaker 4: positive way to hear him describe his approach last night.
10:56
Speaker 1: Yes, and g by the way they called Gorman g right.
11:00
Speaker 1: I think sometimes he can look aloof because he doesn't
11:05
Speaker 1: really like to talk about the nuts and bolts in
11:08
Speaker 1: front of cameras, microphones, writers. But John, he's a good guy,
11:12
Speaker 1: like you talk to him. He likes to have a
11:14
Speaker 1: good time, he's lighthearted. Teammates love him. Sometimes. I think
11:18
Speaker 1: when guys shy away from the media that maybe there's
11:23
Speaker 1: a stigma attached to but talk about him as a
11:25
Speaker 1: guy that at least the Gorman.
11:27
Speaker 2: That you know, Yeah, I mean, teammates absolutely love him.
11:30
Speaker 2: There's a reason that Brendan Donovan and Alec Burlson and
11:34
Speaker 2: those guys went to his wedding like they were out
11:36
Speaker 2: there because they are really really tight. Talk to his teammates.
11:40
Speaker 2: They know he's the strongest guy on the team, like
11:43
Speaker 2: Jordan Walker's bigger, but Nolan Gorman when the ball hits
11:47
Speaker 2: his bat, I mean, this is a kid who won
11:49
Speaker 2: two Major League home run Derbys in high school. So
11:53
Speaker 2: when if he can just cut down on that swing
11:55
Speaker 2: and miss, you know, the ball's gonna fly. And like
11:58
Speaker 2: I said, he's only twenty five, he's gonna mature. He's
12:01
Speaker 2: gonna come out of his shell a little more. We're
12:03
Speaker 2: seeing it now. Like he he mentioned that thing about
12:05
Speaker 2: studying Burlson's at Bad last night. He would have never
12:08
Speaker 2: mentioned that two or three years ago. He's a guy
12:10
Speaker 2: who's more comfortable, and he's in the lineup every day.
12:14
Speaker 2: You know, we all know Nolan Arnotto's not here anymore.
12:16
Speaker 2: He knows he's gonna play every day other than maybe
12:19
Speaker 2: against lefties. But that gives a guy a lot of comfort.
12:21
Speaker 2: I think he's coming out of his shell. I think
12:23
Speaker 2: he's mature and we can see some potential.
12:26
Speaker 3: You get.
12:27
Speaker 1: You mentioned the word maturity, and you talk about maturity
12:30
Speaker 1: and then you look at JJ Weatherold four games into
12:33
Speaker 1: his big league career, and Jeff, I'll ask you this,
12:36
Speaker 1: like he's been described by Ali as one of those
12:39
Speaker 1: guys that has zero heart rate, right, but JJ Weatherhold
12:44
Speaker 1: already had his ton of first. You know, the first
12:46
Speaker 1: game first was a homer, first walk off, all the things.
12:51
Speaker 1: I just watch that guy and he does not look
12:54
Speaker 1: at all like a guy who's got four games as well.
12:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, it's interesting when you talk about
13:01
Speaker 4: guys who are in that stage in their career. A
13:03
Speaker 4: lot of times we hear coaches talk about a desire
13:06
Speaker 4: to see a guy fail to see how they react
13:08
Speaker 4: to it right now because they don't want to even
13:10
Speaker 4: do well, but because they want to know what the
13:11
Speaker 4: bounce back is going to be. There have been a
13:13
Speaker 4: couple of plays. There were some kind of early in
13:15
Speaker 4: spring and even here in the early going where weather
13:18
Speaker 4: Hold has had some small like less than ideal moment
13:21
Speaker 4: a second at second base. There was a ground ball
13:23
Speaker 4: in the first ending last night where maybe he could
13:25
Speaker 4: have gone home to get lind door at the play,
13:26
Speaker 4: couldn't get the ball out of his glove, calmed down, settled,
13:29
Speaker 4: got the outer first. There was a play later in
13:31
Speaker 4: the game where there was a ground ball up the middle.
13:33
Speaker 4: He's going toward the short step, toward toward the bag,
13:36
Speaker 4: toward toward Mason Whin and the toss was overhand instead
13:39
Speaker 4: of underhand, and it looked awkward. It looked a little clunky.
13:41
Speaker 4: But it's little things like that that are going to
13:44
Speaker 4: improve as the season goes on and he gets more
13:46
Speaker 4: comfortable when he readjusted that position. And also, by the way,
13:50
Speaker 4: those were positive plays he got out some both of
13:52
Speaker 4: those plays, right, those were plays where he could have
13:54
Speaker 4: gotten a little tangled up, a little tied up, and
13:56
Speaker 4: could have turned what should have been and out into
13:58
Speaker 4: a bigger problem. But he said that old collected that
14:01
Speaker 4: got the out that he had to get and work
14:03
Speaker 4: through it. And you know, we say all of that,
14:05
Speaker 4: and then the approach at the plate is what is
14:07
Speaker 4: there even to worry about. We'll see what it looks
14:09
Speaker 4: like in a week or in two weeks once the
14:11
Speaker 4: league has had a chance to adjust to him, and
14:13
Speaker 4: then he can adjust back. But the advats look like
14:16
Speaker 4: a five year pro at this point, right Like you
14:18
Speaker 4: wouldn't you wouldn't even blink, wouldn't hesitate to see him
14:21
Speaker 4: at the plate, and so he has been as advertised,
14:24
Speaker 4: he has been just about everything they could possibly have
14:27
Speaker 4: asked for him to be.
14:28
Speaker 3: And I think they would have to be thrilled.
14:30
Speaker 4: I think if anything, they're looking around at the extension
14:33
Speaker 4: that Cooper practis signed in Milwaukee and the Colt emerges
14:36
Speaker 4: and Emerson just signed in Seattle, and get a little
14:39
Speaker 4: curious about what that looks like here?
14:41
Speaker 1: What is what has weather Hop done that's most impressive
14:46
Speaker 1: to you, John Denn.
14:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim, I mean the first thing you look for
14:50
Speaker 2: with a rookie years like, is this stage too big
14:52
Speaker 2: for him? You know, this kid is comfortable in his
14:55
Speaker 2: own skin. He knows he can hit. He knows he
14:57
Speaker 2: can hit it double A, triple A. He can hit
14:59
Speaker 2: in the big leagues. I'm still waiting on that first
15:01
Speaker 2: time he drives the ball to left field, over the wall.
15:05
Speaker 2: He can hit to all fields. He can hit for power,
15:08
Speaker 2: he can hit for average, he can run, he can
15:11
Speaker 2: do it all. I go back to this with him, Jim.
15:14
Speaker 2: His youth baseball coach was David Bednar's brother in Pittsburgh.
15:17
Speaker 2: He was on the same team with Jack Wilson's son.
15:20
Speaker 2: He was on the same team with Neil Walker's son.
15:22
Speaker 2: He's been around big leaguers his whole life. You can't
15:25
Speaker 2: tell me that didn't impact him. He's not blown away
15:28
Speaker 2: by being around other big leaguers. He's not, you know,
15:32
Speaker 2: scared of seeing you know, Juan Soto because he's been
15:37
Speaker 2: around major league players.
15:39
Speaker 3: He grew up in the.
15:39
Speaker 2: Pirates clubhouse, like he had access to that when he
15:42
Speaker 2: was a kid. So I think that really has helped
15:44
Speaker 2: his maturity at this level. And he's a guy who's
15:46
Speaker 2: comfortable in his own skin and he's not scared on
15:49
Speaker 2: the big stage.
15:50
Speaker 1: So lots of goods so far in the season.
15:53
Speaker 3: Some not so good.
15:54
Speaker 1: We'll get to that after the break. You're watching Cardinal
15:57
Speaker 1: Territory on the Foul Territory Network.
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16:57
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16:59
Speaker 3: It's blue Choo.
17:02
Speaker 1: I'm excited to have John Denton and Jeff Jones on
17:05
Speaker 1: the podcast today. Before we get into the uh the bullpen,
17:09
Speaker 1: which is not being great ABS right. Jeff told me
17:14
Speaker 1: before we started Cardinals only one to have an unsuccess
17:17
Speaker 1: or have a successful ABS challenge, but then said he
17:20
Speaker 1: had a rant, and I'm like, all right, let's get
17:23
Speaker 1: to it. John, what's your rant?
17:26
Speaker 3: Hey, Jim, it's great. Uh. C B. Buckner had a
17:28
Speaker 3: rough game the other night. We all know.
17:29
Speaker 2: I think there were twenty five missed calls is what
17:31
Speaker 2: it showed in the afterwards, but he had eight calls
17:35
Speaker 2: challenged and he was wrong six times. I mean, that's you.
17:37
Speaker 2: You want to get the call right. But here's my idea.
17:40
Speaker 2: Well it's not my idea. I stole it from comedian
17:42
Speaker 2: John Christ Jim. We need to bring abs into real life.
17:47
Speaker 2: When when Jeff tells me that he could have been
17:49
Speaker 2: a major leaguer if he hadn't hurt his knee, I
17:51
Speaker 2: would tap my head and say, I gotta you know,
17:53
Speaker 2: we got to review that. When when Jim tells people
17:56
Speaker 2: that he's over paying us, I would tap my head
17:58
Speaker 2: and say, hey, that's not true. Let's go you know, so.
18:02
Speaker 3: We didn't bring that in everyday life.
18:03
Speaker 2: When your buddy tells you he made two hundred thousand cryptocurrency,
18:07
Speaker 2: I'm gonna tap my head and say it, let's challenge that.
18:10
Speaker 1: So that's my like it so diff Let me ask
18:14
Speaker 1: you this because I know we just had the bluechoo add.
18:17
Speaker 1: I don't mean to, but I think it could be
18:18
Speaker 1: e masculating for a home plate umpire to have to
18:23
Speaker 1: stand there after a challenge goes against him and goes
18:27
Speaker 1: against him, and goes against him.
18:29
Speaker 3: But so far, so.
18:30
Speaker 1: Good, because everyone wants the right call, and we're getting
18:33
Speaker 1: that just your thoughts and how it's gone so far.
18:36
Speaker 4: You know, in the early days of spring trading, I
18:39
Speaker 4: had a thought about something, and I was asking around
18:41
Speaker 4: about it, and both of you have been there is
18:42
Speaker 4: sort of seeing the face that Oliver will make when
18:45
Speaker 4: occasionally I get off on a little bit of the
18:47
Speaker 4: jag and don't maybe have not centered Babe in the
18:49
Speaker 4: right place. But I was asking around one day about
18:53
Speaker 4: what's going to happen the first time an umpire gets
18:58
Speaker 4: a bur in their saddle, about whether it's I can't
19:00
Speaker 4: believe this rookie is challenge in these pitches, or I
19:02
Speaker 4: can't believe they're challenging five pitches in this inning. There's
19:06
Speaker 4: gonna be something. I had this thought in spring. There
19:08
Speaker 4: is bound to be something that's gonna occur with this
19:11
Speaker 4: and blow and behold. Derek Sheldon gets chucked out the
19:13
Speaker 4: first Sunday of the season because he felt like Ryan
19:16
Speaker 4: Helsley didn't challenge quickly enough.
19:18
Speaker 3: I guess at the end of the game.
19:19
Speaker 4: In the meantime, there's noise in the stadium and you
19:21
Speaker 4: can see on the video Helsley's like reaching for his hat.
19:24
Speaker 4: He's trying to make sure the catcher hadn't challenge, but
19:26
Speaker 4: where he's also doing it because they're trying not to
19:28
Speaker 4: show up an umpire.
19:29
Speaker 3: Right. All of that is to say, there is all
19:32
Speaker 3: this weird social.
19:33
Speaker 4: Expectation and interaction that goes in between hitters and catchers
19:36
Speaker 4: and pitchers and umpires and when is a good time
19:38
Speaker 4: to challenge and when it's a good time to not.
19:40
Speaker 4: I think it is really interesting that teams by and
19:43
Speaker 4: large have been really conservative thus far, that there are
19:46
Speaker 4: a lot of teams that are trying to hold these
19:49
Speaker 4: for later in games that you are really seeing almost
19:52
Speaker 4: no hitters. No Granted, I'm watching a lot of Cardinals
19:54
Speaker 4: games and haven't had a lot of time to watch
19:56
Speaker 4: as much other baseball as maybe I would like to,
19:58
Speaker 4: but almost no hitter challenges before maybe the sixth or
20:02
Speaker 4: seventh inning of a ballgame because teams are so convinced
20:05
Speaker 4: that the leverage moments for these are going to happen
20:07
Speaker 4: later and they have to have access to ball. But
20:10
Speaker 4: then I understand that thought. You know, as I've asked
20:12
Speaker 4: around about this over the last couple of days, a
20:16
Speaker 4: lot of people around the game have said, yeah, it's important.
20:19
Speaker 4: Over the course of the season, it probably isn't worth
20:21
Speaker 4: even as much as ten runs, but if you distribute
20:24
Speaker 4: them in the right way in this, that and the
20:26
Speaker 4: other things. So they are going to be kinks to workout.
20:29
Speaker 4: There are going to be strategic things to work out.
20:31
Speaker 4: But I think undoubtedly the thing that a lot of
20:34
Speaker 4: people may be suspected would be the case, and Ali
20:37
Speaker 4: Marmle has said that he was sure this would be
20:39
Speaker 4: the case and he felt a little vindicated by it.
20:41
Speaker 3: It is a really good fan experience.
20:44
Speaker 4: It's a little moment in a stadium where everyone can
20:48
Speaker 4: root for the same thing, right Because you go to
20:51
Speaker 4: a ballpark eighty percent home fans, twenty percent road fans.
20:55
Speaker 3: Some people are just there to hang out, drink whatever.
20:58
Speaker 4: But let me tell you, when the challenge system goes
21:01
Speaker 4: up on the board, everybody likes to root against an
21:04
Speaker 4: umpire and so it creates a nice little fun collection
21:08
Speaker 4: of the crowd, everybody getting to come together and it's
21:11
Speaker 4: here for the red desired outcome at the same time.
21:13
Speaker 4: So it sincerely does, I think add a lot to
21:16
Speaker 4: the fan experience. And you know whether or not it's
21:19
Speaker 4: great for hitters, great for pictures, how it changes the
21:21
Speaker 4: strike zone all fair questions, But it's an entertainment product,
21:25
Speaker 4: and that's an entertaining process.
21:27
Speaker 1: And it also kind of backs up where based on
21:31
Speaker 1: the ratings and fans who watch games know who the
21:33
Speaker 1: umpires to blow a lot of conflict Buckner, and then
21:37
Speaker 1: you see it in real life and real time riting
21:39
Speaker 1: fun of it. It's something that everyone can cheer about.
21:42
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk Cardinals bullpen pretty good on Monday.
21:46
Speaker 1: There's Roycroft in the mix who's given up a lot
21:49
Speaker 1: of really soft content. He's been victimized a little bit.
21:52
Speaker 1: But the bullpen numbers are not good. So John, let's
21:57
Speaker 1: start with you, because I thought, and I still think
21:59
Speaker 1: the bullpen can be a strong point for the Cardinals
22:02
Speaker 1: because I like some of the arms out there. They're
22:04
Speaker 1: going to sort of have a closer by committee at
22:07
Speaker 1: least at this point. I think they're going to settle
22:08
Speaker 1: in on a closer But just your thoughts on the
22:11
Speaker 1: Cardinal bullpen.
22:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim, it's been rocky so far, but some of it,
22:15
Speaker 2: like we talked about, I think Jeff wrote about this
22:17
Speaker 2: as Matt Swhonson has been victimized by these little seventy
22:21
Speaker 2: milin hoar flares. Chris Roycroft is the captain of the
22:25
Speaker 2: swinging bunt that ends up in kind of that Bermuda
22:27
Speaker 2: triangle between the third basement, shortstop and pitcher where you
22:31
Speaker 2: know it just it kind of goes in the middle
22:33
Speaker 2: of nowhere and those become hits. I think, like you said,
22:37
Speaker 2: I think eventually this bullpen will stabilize. We all need
22:40
Speaker 2: to take under consideration. Riley O'Brien missed two and a
22:43
Speaker 2: half weeks of spring training. The Cardinals are bringing him
22:46
Speaker 2: along slowly. I think eventually he will be their closer.
22:50
Speaker 2: You know, they don't want to overextend him right now.
22:52
Speaker 2: He has a history of forearm injuries. They want to
22:55
Speaker 2: keep him at one inning. Right now, he's pitched in
22:58
Speaker 2: the sixth inning, he's pitching the seventh inning. I think
23:00
Speaker 2: as we go along, maybe next week that becomes the
23:03
Speaker 2: eighth and end of the next week that becomes the
23:05
Speaker 2: ninth in and he's the closer. SoJ Jojo Romero and
23:10
Speaker 2: Rley O'Brien will eventually get to where they're pitching that
23:13
Speaker 2: eighth and ninth and I think that will solve a
23:14
Speaker 2: lot of the bullpen's issues.
23:17
Speaker 1: Sorry, onnall looked really good last night. What do you
23:20
Speaker 1: think the Cardinals have with the arms in the bullpen?
23:25
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think that there are a lot
23:27
Speaker 4: of ways you can kind of look at the way
23:28
Speaker 4: guys are slotted in how that affects the rest of
23:30
Speaker 4: the bullpen, right. I think that the ideal version of
23:34
Speaker 4: this Cardinal's bullpen is one where the second left to
23:36
Speaker 4: you right now, that's justin Brule is able to handle
23:39
Speaker 4: some of those matchup lanes in the sixth and seventh,
23:41
Speaker 4: and so they're able to use Romero as a more
23:43
Speaker 4: like split neutral setup man in the eighth inning, which
23:47
Speaker 4: leaves them with O'Brien and potentially standic to use in
23:50
Speaker 4: those higher leverage spots in the seventh and the ninth.
23:53
Speaker 4: You know, when you kind of look at the group
23:54
Speaker 4: of guys so far, Shards had won out and it
23:56
Speaker 4: was his big league debut, it did not go well,
23:58
Speaker 4: got hit hard, looked to get sped off on him
24:01
Speaker 4: a little bit. That's probably gonna happen for a guy
24:03
Speaker 4: who was a Rule five pick, who'd never been never
24:06
Speaker 4: been above double A before this season, who maybe didn't
24:09
Speaker 4: necessarily expect to be on the roster. I think that,
24:11
Speaker 4: you know, in an alternate universe where the Cardinals have
24:15
Speaker 4: the ability to send him to Memphis, that probably is
24:17
Speaker 4: more likely where he ends up at the end of spring.
24:19
Speaker 4: But this is where they're at now with the rule
24:21
Speaker 4: five situation. I think that Soriano has for sure been
24:25
Speaker 4: a really nice surprise. He saw him throw one strong inning,
24:28
Speaker 4: then he had last night the two winnings of shut
24:30
Speaker 4: out ball. That's a guy who I would not be
24:31
Speaker 4: surprised as he trusted with a little more, a little more, you.
24:34
Speaker 3: Know, when you think about the way, for instance, that.
24:36
Speaker 4: Ryan Fernandez, when he was really good in twenty twenty four,
24:39
Speaker 4: did not pitch at all the first series of the
24:40
Speaker 4: season at Dodger Stadium. There was clearly some hesitance to
24:43
Speaker 4: kind of work him into that rotation.
24:45
Speaker 3: Eventually reached the point in.
24:46
Speaker 4: San Diego where they were just out of guys and
24:48
Speaker 4: Fernandez had to pitch, and he pitched well and then
24:51
Speaker 4: earned it and earned it and earned it. Soriano in
24:53
Speaker 4: a similar way, it was one of the last guys
24:54
Speaker 4: to get into a game.
24:55
Speaker 3: Has now pitched well twice.
24:56
Speaker 4: If he stacks up a third one, a fourth one,
24:58
Speaker 4: then you're going to see that kind of expand O'Brien's
25:02
Speaker 4: been fine, Romero has been frying. Stanik has not been
25:06
Speaker 4: maybe exactly what you want. The walks are a little high,
25:10
Speaker 4: the velocity is.
25:10
Speaker 3: Maybe not quite exactly where you want it.
25:13
Speaker 4: As a veteran who you would hope understands himself, understands
25:16
Speaker 4: his body well enough that he's going to get himself
25:17
Speaker 4: into a spot or he's able to compete the way
25:20
Speaker 4: that he wants to compete.
25:21
Speaker 3: But you know, the really interesting trick here, and JD.
25:24
Speaker 4: Talks talking about Sponson and talking about Roycroft, a little
25:30
Speaker 4: bit of a challenge the Cardinals have here is that
25:32
Speaker 4: they don't really have a lot of moving parts, right
25:35
Speaker 4: like when you think about Shard with the forty man restriction,
25:38
Speaker 4: and you think about with with the World five restriction, sorry,
25:41
Speaker 4: and you think about Soriano being a guy who doesn't
25:45
Speaker 4: have any options, that kind of only leaves you with
25:47
Speaker 4: Sponson and and and Roycroft as the guys who can
25:50
Speaker 4: go up and down and sponson. You know, through sixty
25:53
Speaker 4: innings for this team last year, wasn't just like a
25:54
Speaker 4: two week guy who through Lee was one of the
25:56
Speaker 4: leaders innnings out of the bullpen last year and had
25:58
Speaker 4: an era under two. So it's really hard to think
26:01
Speaker 4: that he would be a guy who they would want
26:03
Speaker 4: to send up and down unless that became a thing.
26:06
Speaker 4: And so there's going to be a trick to kind
26:08
Speaker 4: of managing rest and and and and innings for all
26:12
Speaker 4: these guys. The Cardinals are helped that they're off every
26:15
Speaker 4: Thursday at April, so they get a little bit of
26:17
Speaker 4: a reset, hoping the weekend series all the times to
26:19
Speaker 4: get these things together. But there, you know, there are
26:22
Speaker 4: a lot of options maybe available of Memphis, but not
26:25
Speaker 4: quite as easy to move those pieces around as they
26:27
Speaker 4: might hope.
26:29
Speaker 1: One of the pieces from the bullpen last year really
26:33
Speaker 1: good lay Hey and I've been talking about it for
26:35
Speaker 1: a while because he's a guy with six pitches, is
26:39
Speaker 1: in the rotation. He started Monday night, he started at
26:43
Speaker 1: the end of the season. I consider that sort of
26:45
Speaker 1: a bullpen game. This is sort of his first real start,
26:48
Speaker 1: and there was some good and not so good. I'm
26:51
Speaker 1: a Lahy believer, John, What are your thoughts on Leahy,
26:55
Speaker 1: because I think this guy is going to be a
26:57
Speaker 1: good start.
26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim, I I'm a big believer in him. But
27:01
Speaker 2: like I love guys who are smart, who analyze the game.
27:04
Speaker 2: And when you talk to Dusty Blake, when you talk
27:06
Speaker 2: to Oliver Marmaal, they will tell you he is the
27:09
Speaker 2: smartest guy in that room.
27:11
Speaker 3: You know.
27:11
Speaker 2: Yes, his first outing he pitched well for five innings,
27:14
Speaker 2: he kind of hit the wall, didn't get it out
27:16
Speaker 2: in the sixth. Look at his next outing, look at
27:18
Speaker 2: the work he does in between. He's a guy who's
27:21
Speaker 2: going to go back and break down the film and
27:24
Speaker 2: study every pitch. You know, he has a pitch that
27:27
Speaker 2: goes one way, he has a pitch that goes this way.
27:29
Speaker 2: He's got a you know, a sinker. He's got a
27:32
Speaker 2: good curveball he's got He's going to figure out how
27:35
Speaker 2: to use that arsenal better. And he's talked about I
27:38
Speaker 2: want to be more like McGreevy where you know McGreevy
27:40
Speaker 2: kept the Rays off balance by throwing the unexpected pitch.
27:45
Speaker 2: H you know, I think we'll know more about Cala
27:47
Speaker 2: Lay on his second start. Look at the work he
27:50
Speaker 2: does the five days in between. He uses that aptitude,
27:53
Speaker 2: he comes up with a better plan. I think that'll
27:55
Speaker 2: tell you more about where Kala Lay is headed than
27:58
Speaker 2: a first outing where he pay twelve for five minutes
28:01
Speaker 2: against the Mets. Look at what he look at the
28:03
Speaker 2: improvements he makes between now in the next five days.
28:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jeff, he built up his body during spring training
28:09
Speaker 1: to go five innings. He went five and then he
28:12
Speaker 1: had some trouble. But to me, it seems like a
28:14
Speaker 1: pretty good jumping off.
28:15
Speaker 3: Point for him.
28:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:17
Speaker 4: I think when you look at sort of the shape
28:19
Speaker 4: of that outing, the line doesn't look the way maybe
28:21
Speaker 4: he would have wanted to look at the end. But
28:23
Speaker 4: other than Lindor jumping him as the first hitter of
28:26
Speaker 4: the game, had four really strong endings, started to waiver
28:29
Speaker 4: a little bit in the fifth and then and then
28:31
Speaker 4: just kind of didn't have it going out for the sixth.
28:33
Speaker 4: And for all the work that he's done and all
28:35
Speaker 4: the work he does, you know, on the body and
28:37
Speaker 4: prep to make himself ready to go, it's real to
28:40
Speaker 4: have not, you know, to have not really gone deep
28:42
Speaker 4: in a start since and I had top of my head,
28:44
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure was twenty twenty three was the last
28:47
Speaker 4: time he pitched that deep into a game. It's something
28:49
Speaker 4: that he's going to have to adjust to that he's
28:51
Speaker 4: gonna have to learn how it feels, and he's going
28:53
Speaker 4: to learn how he's gonna respond to it to maintain
28:55
Speaker 4: his strength and maintain his stuff throughout a start. So
28:57
Speaker 4: as a as a first start goes, I you know
29:00
Speaker 4: would call that one. Probably it a B minus to
29:02
Speaker 4: a C plus kind of right about what you would expect.
29:05
Speaker 4: The why needs to clean up a little. He needs
29:07
Speaker 4: to hold it a little more at least all the
29:09
Speaker 4: way through the fifth and hopefully into the sixth to
29:12
Speaker 4: put them in a better position to win. But all
29:15
Speaker 4: in all, I think you know looked like himself. I
29:17
Speaker 4: wrote about this during spring, like, how do you evaluate
29:21
Speaker 4: whether it's working when he just looks like Kyle Lahy?
29:24
Speaker 1: Right?
29:24
Speaker 3: Like, when he looks pretty good? The mix is good,
29:26
Speaker 3: the stuff is good.
29:27
Speaker 4: He's able to get through and navigate hitters and handle
29:29
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of kinds of hitters. And the answer
29:32
Speaker 4: is does it sustain? Does he maintain velocity? Does he
29:34
Speaker 4: maintain location throughout the game? That drifted a little last night?
29:38
Speaker 4: Great it was March thirtieth. Let's see what it looks
29:40
Speaker 4: like start two, Start three, Start four, and if there's
29:43
Speaker 4: progress being made there.
29:45
Speaker 1: See media day is fun. Gentlemen. I think you guys
29:48
Speaker 1: knocked it out of the park. I appreciate you spending
29:51
Speaker 1: some time with us. That's gonna do it for this
29:53
Speaker 1: edition of Cardinal Territory.
29:55
Speaker 3: We'll see you next time.
29:56
Speaker 1: Hopefully that episode won't suck