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Can Mainline Christianity Find Its Future? | Lovett Weems · Future Christian

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  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Loren Richmond Jr (01:53) Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. am Loren Richmond Jr. and today I'm pleased to be joined by Lovett Weems. Hello, welcome to the show. Lovett Weems (02:02) Happy to be with you. Loren Richmond Jr (02:04) Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation. Before we get too deep, tell us about your faith journey.
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  What's that look like in the past and what that looks like today? Lovett Weems (02:14) Well, I grew up in a very different era than we're in today. The post-World War II era, I grew up ⁓ in a small rural Methodist church in Mississippi that was part of a free church charge that shared a pastor. ⁓ That was the era when the Sunday school was the the dominant experience with higher attendance than worship. And the church was very much a center of this rural community. So it represented the best
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  and ⁓ it was where the community united and took care of one another. And ⁓ as was often common in that era, ⁓ called a ministry, ⁓ came as a youth and ⁓ went to ⁓ denominational college and seminary and became a pastor in Mississippi, ⁓ the late 60s, 70s, early 80s. I was a seminary president in Kansas City for 18 years and then at Wesley Seminary as the founding director of the Lewis Center for Church Leadership. So the church has always been central to my life. Those pastors that served our
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  rural charge during those growing up years were very pivotal figures in my life. And again, the church just represented ⁓ the best of what you know, God's calling us to be. Loren Richmond Jr (04:12) Yeah, what are some spiritual practices that have sustained you through your life? Lovett Weems (04:17) Well, Wesleyans talk about Christian conferencing. It's the interaction with other Christians where we help work out our own ⁓ beliefs. John Wesley never insisted that people had to accept his
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  beliefs, but you were never free from the debate. You had to continue to engage one another. And I think that's been an important thing for me as I continue to ⁓ learn from other people for whom God's spoken and to them in different ways. Loren Richmond Jr (05:09) Yeah. Well, I'm we're here to talk about love its book and or of hope United Methodism's next chapter in the United States and Lovett as even before we begin on this book. I wondered because something you just said in your
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  introduction there sort of intrigued me. You talked about Sunday school being like the dominant organizing sociological model in, you know, a hundred years ago. I'm thinking of a a congregationalist church, United Church of Christ Church that I served years ago that itself was initially organized or began meeting as a Sunday school. Can you share just real quick, like I think that's such a vastly different model. Like growing up Baptist, like I studied the Sunday school movement a little bit,
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  but it's been so long. And I think that even as a model is it'll lapse from most of our thinking. Lovett Weems (06:09) Well, for Methodists in the United States, there was an era in which the key means of spiritual formation was the camp meeting. And states would have dozens of these camp meetings where people would come together for a week to two weeks. It was the original seven day a week church. There was something for children. There was a lot of music. There was fellowship. ⁓ And it ⁓ was
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  scheduled on the farming cycle. Then the Sunday school movement began, first in England and shortly after in the United States. Interestingly, its beginning was not exclusively religious. It began in England before labor laws, child labor laws, and compulsory education. And it was held on Sunday because that's the only day children were not Loren Richmond Jr (07:06) Right. Lovett Weems (07:18) required to work. And so they taught reading and writing and math ⁓ and religion. And often the
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  children would then go home and teach their parents. I think about that a lot today when you think of so many churches with so many empty Sunday school rooms and how many needs there are within the community. But Loren Richmond Jr (07:40) Yeah. Lovett Weems (07:47) As the Sunday school movement started, there was a lot of energy in communities and congregations. Denominational leaders were more worried about trying to keep the camp meetings going because they were losing them because times
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  were changing. But eventually the Sunday school movement served denominations for a hundred years. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (08:02) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Lovett Weems (08:15) It was not until the late fifties, early sixties, especially in the South, that worship attendance ⁓ became larger than Sunday school attendance because the pattern was everyone goes to Sunday school and then of that group, there will be a group, most of the people, but not all, will then stay for worship. For example, Loren
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  Richmond Jr (08:31) Wow. Lovett Weems (08:47) In Mississippi in the late fifties, early sixties, a church that had 800 in Sunday school would usually have about 500 in worship. with so many circuits, the Sunday school superintendent was the ⁓ key leader. And some stayed in that position for 20, 30, 50 years. Loren Richmond Jr (09:00) Wow. Lovett Weems (09:16) So the Sunday school was especially important and especially in the sound. Loren Richmond Jr (09:26) Yes, really intriguing so I thank
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  you for taking that side track with me I think it it all sort of fits in here to this broader conversation where we're talking about here today about You know trends and changing and shifting Organizational norms, I suppose ⁓ speaking of changing and shifting organizational norms you begin the book by talking about the disaffiliation amongst the United Methodist Church. You're right that it was more a tragedy than an inevitability. ⁓ What do you think we most, what do think most gets understood
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  about that disaffiliation? Lovett Weems (10:08) Well, what happened in the United Methodist Church had previously happened in a lot of other mainline denominations. And so, but I think it was a failure. Loren Richmond Jr (10:19) Yeah. Lovett Weems (10:27) In that, ⁓ There was nothing stronger that united us than what divided us. Now in the moment, and this is not the first time, Methodism or other denominations have split over various issues, but it's interesting to consider how many other
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  issues we've not divided over. ⁓ In the United Methodist Church, we have a very clear statement against the death penalty, but we've never divided over that despite, ⁓ you don't have to look to any obscure passages to find thou shalt not kill. On war and peace in World War II, ⁓ primarily because how large Methodism was at that time, it had more soldiers fighting, ⁓ but it also had more conscientious objectors. We've never divided over that, though there are clear differences. We've never
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  divided over divorce, and the Bible says a lot more about divorce than it does about homosexuality, for example. So it's the cultural context. I mean, we see that certainly with slavery and we see it now with other social issues that the church and its faith, its unity in Christ is not strong enough to survive. I think on the issue of homosexuality that became an issue in the United Methodist Church in 1972. when on a motion from the floor, language was added to say that the practice of
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  homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. One of the wisest things said that day was by Dr. Walter Muehlder, a social ethicist from Boston University School of Theology, where he was dean. He said, our thinking on this subject has not matured sufficiently to be in a position to make a statement. But once that statement was in... It was very hard to get it out. But by the end in 2019. Loren Richmond Jr (13:13) Yeah. Lovett Weems (13:18) Two thirds of the U.S. favored what was
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  called the one church solution that would have kept the church together, would have taken out the negative language, but would not have required any pastor or any congregation or any conference to violate their own conscience on the subject. But the delegates from outside the United States and especially from Africa or those for whom there was really nothing to discuss about the issue. so the one church plan failed by a relatively small number of votes. Loren Richmond Jr (14:08) You write
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  about the term compatibilists, people with strong convictions who remain connected across disagreement. I have a good friend who I discuss this with quite often, I feel like. ⁓ He talks about Dennis Sanders in my tradition, Disciples of Christ Churches, who went through heated conversations, debates, if you will, about whether their churches should become affirming, and he would often say like the language that was often used then was we have healing to do with the idea of like our, as you
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  said, our unity in Christ ⁓ is more important than how we feel about these other things. There's this trend today, there's certainly this emphasis today that compatibilism is not okay. What do you think, is that possible today? Lovett Weems (15:06) Well, I think it is. And I think even in our situation, know, about 99 % of congregations ⁓ worked out these issues. It was the denominational leaders and advocates on either side that felt that they could not in good conscience stay together.
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  Loren Richmond Jr (15:22) Mm-hmm. Lovett Weems (15:36) For instance, in those 99 % of congregations, people know that in their Sunday school class, in their congregation, there are people who don't vote like them. There are people who don't think like them on issues, but they're not interested in pushing them out of their class or pushing them out of the church. They're certainly not interested in telling another church down the road how to run. their business or who they can have as members
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  or things like that. ⁓ That's what real compatible ism is. ⁓ It's where sure you have your ideas, ⁓ but you're not anxious to punish someone who doesn't. It's like in a family, you know, that everybody in the family doesn't agree. But if you said, By a certain date, everyone in our family will have to declare themselves one way or the other. And that's what happened with this affiliation. And sides ⁓ divided. And many times, it was 20 % or less of a church that would force a vote. And once the
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  vote was forced, the churches didn't have to vote. But if there was a vote, you were going to lose people no matter how it turned out because of the acrimony that caused. Loren Richmond Jr (17:19) Yeah, it's quite painful and unfortunate to think about. And with this, I think you talk a lot about renewal of identity and rediscovery of identity and purpose. I wonder how much of this sort of trend, and this is where I think your book is so applicable, not just to Methodist churches and leaders,
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  but also even more broadly to mainline churches of all stripes. I mean, the church as a whole, right? So many churches have lost their identity and purpose. How do you think like that affected, how do think that has affected Methodism over the last, you know, decade, decade, 20 years, even further back? And what do you think needs to happen? Lovett Weems (18:07) Well, I think it is applicable across churches. Take any congregation, for example. If you go back to their beginning, they were in
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  essence saying, we will begin a church where there is no church, so that, and they would have completed it, ⁓ so that we can reach people who've not. previously been reached for Christ or so we could be God's presence in the community. But after all these years, we've forgotten that so that what is the fruit that God's asking us to produce? So I think of it in terms of in a given week, Loren Richmond Jr (18:35) Mm-hmm. Lovett Weems (18:59) how pastors and staff and laity spend their time. In
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  the early days of a congregation and a denomination, almost all that time and energy is spent outwardly, making connections, developing relationships, strengthening relationships, holding relationships together. Whereas now, it is focused so much inwardly. So a term that I use a lot in the book is the people God has given us. that there are different ways of beginning our search for what we should be doing. For John Wesley, churches were not the beginning point, neither were clergy, and not
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  even doctrine. Wesley said, don't know what doctrine to begin with until you know the people. So he would often preach five times on a Sunday. and sometimes preach five different sermons, not because he was changing his mind, but because the congregations were different. So that well-to-do group, he would have one message to the very poor and suffering another message. So you begin with the people. So if you view your community the way we tend to view them, we'll view our church in terms of
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  its members, its leaders, but if you view it the way God does, it will see all the people. And so what would it mean for us to see our parish as the people God has given us. And that becomes then the focus of all the members to serve the people God's given us. Loren Richmond Jr (21:20) Let's lead into that for a moment because I think this is something I confess. I have been guilty of this for sure thinking about times where I was leading a local church and I had a bit of, I don't know if
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  disdain is too strong a word, but I think this is a tendency throughout the main line where clergy are like, boy, if only my people were more this, that or the other. certainly, broadly speaking within the main line. clergy tend to be more liberal and there's this sort of like, my people are so backwards, so conservative. And certainly I've been, it's hit me like how much, how might things, how might my own ministry and past context been different if I really like loved the people, like as you
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  say, the people God has given me, given us. Lovett Weems (22:15) Well, I like to say that you always begin with the presumption of grace, that you don't assume that you are less racist than the congregation or that you care more for the poor. ⁓ That may very well be the case, but you're not there as an anthropologist or consultant or you're there as the pastor. And so Loren Richmond Jr (22:21) Hmm. Hmm. Lovett Weems (22:42) The two phrases that I encourage students to memorize is, am so
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  proud and I'm so honored. And I tell them they need to practice it in front of a mirror until they can say it with a straight face. So I have never been so proud ⁓ to be pastor of this church as I was when Loren Richmond Jr (23:03) Yeah. Lovett Weems (23:11) We reached out to in such a way. Now that is true and you'd like to see more of it. It may not be representative, ⁓ but that's what you do. And if you do that, there'll be times when people do prove you wrong. And then you can say, we need
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  to talk. Loren Richmond Jr (23:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lovett Weems (23:39) When you do that, they'll say, when? Because that's not all they hear from you. So you've got to begin that this church, this church exists to serve you, not for you to serve it. We want to help every one of you take your next fateful step on your discipleship journey. And we also... Loren Richmond Jr (23:43) Hmm. Hmm. Lovett Weems (24:07) want to help you discover your ministry and be in ministry to the people God
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  has given us in our community. And I know they're on your hearts. and I look forward to our working together. Loren Richmond Jr (24:28) Yeah, what a different approach that is. Wow. I want to go back to something you said. You use the phrase. So that that's a phrase that I remember from your book with Doug Poe. Sustaining while disrupting. And I remember that y'all write in that book about, making sure the right. So that, know, so Lovett Weems (24:39) sustaining without disrupting. Loren
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  Richmond Jr (24:49) For instance you write in this book like the diversity is always an ad but it's not the end itself Like I was thinking about that in terms of your old your your past book about the so that Do you think that's been a challenge for you know the Methodism or mainline churches more broadly as we've sort of confused what the end game is that the so that is Lovett Weems (25:13) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the challenge is you can be diverse and unfaithful. You can be inclusive and
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  unfaithful. you have to, diversity and inclusion need to be the fruit of the way you're doing, ⁓ your mission. ⁓ all the mainline churches have wonderful statements on diversity and inclusion. ⁓ but a church like the assemblies of God is a far more diverse church and probably have no resolutions on the subject. ⁓ Because I think in that case, there's something that people have come to see that's more important that unites them than something that ⁓ divides them. So, ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (25:49)
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  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Lovett Weems (26:17) If you... The mainline denominations have always had a degree of diversity and Methodism more than some. But the nation has so changed. The mid, the mainline churches started declining in the mid 1960s in membership. 1965 was the passage of the immigration act of 1965. And it radically changed who is able to come into the country. And it opened up parts of the world for immigration. such as Latin America and Asia and Africa that had not been available
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  before. So we were at maybe 16%, maybe less diversity of people of color in this nation when that passed. Now it's over 40 % probably, and yet the churches have not changed. The world has changed and yet we haven't. The people God's given us have changed, but we haven't. I said many years ago that there is no future for any denomination in the United States that cannot demonstrate that it can reach more people, younger people, and more diverse people. And I also added... that while some may be
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  likely to choose one of those groups as where they would like to focus, the reality is we will either achieve all three or no one of them. Because if we reach more people, they will be younger. There are not any older cohorts than regular church attenders these days. If we reach more diverse people, they will be younger. If we reach younger people, they will be more diverse because the population age 65 and above is overwhelmingly white. The population age 18 and below is predominantly people
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  of color. Loren Richmond Jr (29:00) Yeah. Yeah, I think this is a really interesting part of your book you write about, which I think relates here about the challenge of Methodism in its early days was so many of those churches were planted in rural areas where the population was, right? And now population centers have shifted towards urban areas and the population or the Methodist churches are, you know, they're They're built in these rural areas and you can't pick up a church and move it.
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  So, you know, we don't have churches in those areas. Methodists don't. You know, I'm thinking of like I, my tradition, the disciples of Christ, very similar dynamic as you have data in the book saying a lot of the disciples churches are in again, rural areas and not in the urban areas. But as you know, in the book, like, If we enter those urban areas where most of the population is, there are by nature those populations are younger and more diverse. Right? Lovett Weems (30:15) Absolutely. The
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  rural strategy developed by Bishop Francis Asbury. served the church well for a hundred years. Bishop Asbury came to realize in the late 1700s that left to their own devices, the clergy were going to hang around the cities of New York and Philadelphia because life was easier there. So he developed a scent ministry instead of a called ministry. You are sent where there's the need. Loren Richmond Jr (30:42) Yeah. Lovett Weems (30:48) And so clergy were sent West and continued that and the
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  denominations that today form the United Methodist Church at one time had over 50,000 congregations in the country. And so that expansion continued through the 1920s, 1930s, membership growing faster than the population for many of those years. But then there started this movement of concentration of population. So then in the twenties and thirties, 80 % of the population lived in rural areas. And by now it's just reversed and about 20 % of the population live in the rural areas. So of almost
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  4,000 counties in the country, two thirds of the population live in just over 300 counties. And We are often not represented as well there. But even within states, ⁓ there's the concentration of population. Even in states where there's no large metropolitan area, the population has shifted toward the larger communities around interstates. and where doctors and hospitals tend to be. So in some states, for instance, two that I've studied are Kansas and Nebraska. There are more counties today
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  that would be classified frontier. That is in the early American notion that you had to have six people or more per square mile to become a settlement. So counties with fewer than six people per square mile, there are more of those counties today that would be frontier than a hundred years ago. But that doesn't mean those states have lost population. Loren Richmond Jr (33:11) Wow. Lovett Weems (33:16) Those states have gained in population, but it has been concentrated and it shifted in other
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  areas. Loren Richmond Jr (33:28) So practically speaking, think this is something that was interesting. Practically speaking, we obviously can't pick up churches and truck them across the country or states to more urban centers, dense counties, as you talk about. What are some practical things that can be done to account for this population shift? Lovett Weems (33:55) Well, in, in connectional churches such as United Methodism, it should be much easier than in more congregationally based
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  polities. ⁓ That's why I would encourage conference leaders, often synonymous with the state, to identify where are the two thirds of the counties where people live. And then. Loren Richmond Jr (34:07) Yeah. Lovett Weems (34:25) Where are the churches with 251 or more in attendance in those counties, especially? Because at least in recent years in the United Methodist Church, only the only cohorts of churches by size where they've had more new believers, professions of faith, call them, than
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  deaths are the 251 or more. So I would begin by seeing where we are. And if you're going to do better, you need to look at places where that's happening. And also to remind those clergy to who much is given, much is expected. ⁓ In all of those conferences, there are hundreds of clergy who'd give anything to be in a place where the population is denser and growing. But these few clergy have that opportunity. Now, but the same thing should be true with every congregation, even in the most rural
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  areas. First of all, you begin by looking at your community in terms of the people God's given us. And what are their needs? What are their... interest. And so in one community, a church realized that a high percentage of children were being reared by their grandparents. So they started a community-wide support group for those grandparents to come together. And they were able to help each other ⁓ face because they were facing common ⁓ challenges. There are other examples of that. So once you
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  begin thinking in that outside perspective, once you see that God's calling is not just to take care of members, but it's the calling of all those members and pastor and staff. to... care for their mission field for the people God has given them. Then that opens new worlds. It's not uncommon for United Methodist churches today to think of themselves as stable, but they no longer have children. They no longer have youth. Loren Richmond Jr (37:20) Yeah. Lovett Weems (37:23) They're stapled
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  because they have money. They're a population, their membership is older. People have more assets from age 70 and above than ever in their lives. And ⁓ so it's not unusual for those churches also to have a great school within sight of the church. and to have a middle school and a high school and yet no children. There was a time when the regular attenders of a congregation tended to match pretty well the demographics of their community. Today they don't. Regular attenders tend to be older,
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  less diverse, more well-to-do, better educated. Loren Richmond Jr (38:10) Mm-hmm. Lovett Weems (38:20) and more likely to be married or are formally married. Loren Richmond Jr (38:30) What do you think, like, what do think when you talk about that church size dynamic of bigger churches tend to be more likely to grow or attract people? What do you think is like, there a secret sauce? If you will, that is it just like size attracts? What is it? Is it something they're doing that is enabling
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  them to reach more people that other churches that are smaller, for instance, are not, are not doing? Lovett Weems (38:58) Well, that's the reason to begin, not to end, but to begin with those churches, because what you'll find is that about half of them will be growing. ⁓ About half of them will be reaching ⁓ more new adherents versus their deaths. And that's when you want to say, what do these churches have? Loren Richmond Jr (39:13) Hmm. Lovett Weems (39:27) in common. And of those that
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  are growing, what can we learn? What are they doing differently, even from churches the same size and the same areas? And number one, you want to affirm what you want to see more of. So if you can say your church had more professions of faith per capita, than any church in our denomination in this conference. They probably don't realize that. And I guarantee you they'll pay attention to how they're doing the next year. So you want to lift them up, but you also want to learn from them and invite
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  them to be a part of helping to share things. ⁓ that can be adapted for other situations. Also, it will help you identify places in those more densely populated areas where you have no presence. And what might that mean? Would it be a second site for a church? Or would it mean a partnership? with a smaller church and a larger church. When population grows, it doesn't mean that churches are going to grow. ⁓ We did an analysis one time of a part of a state and found that 80 % of the churches in
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  a three mile radius had a population increase in the last five years. But only about a third of them grew. And one of the reasons was that many of those churches had attendance of 15 or 20 or 18, and they were not in a position to reach the other people. The reasons... Loren Richmond Jr (41:46) Yeah. Lovett Weems (41:48) The larger churches have some things that make it more likely that they will grow. By the same token, as churches get smaller, there are things that cause them to be less
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  likely to grow. They ⁓ tend to have less resources, although the per capita giving... will be greater among the smaller churches. members tend to be older. That means they have a higher death rate. ⁓ Sometimes ⁓ their facilities are not up to date. So there are a number of things, including many have just given up on the idea that Loren Richmond Jr (42:16) Right. Lovett Weems (42:43) they will grow. Loren Richmond Jr (42:46) Yeah. I'm thinking again, I want to ask this one more question
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  more broadly before we take a break, thinking about again how your work I think is applicable to more broadly speaking mainline congregations and even churches in America. What are one or two you think examples, learnings, other traditions, denominations in the mainline could learn from Methodism or? the challenges even that Methodism is facing that they might implement in their own context. Lovett Weems (43:22) Well, I think all of the denominations you're referencing have a real gap between
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  those that they reach and those that God has given us. And you've talked about one of those being geographic. There's also the racial gap, there's the age gap, and one that's maybe it's significant or more so than all, and that's the economic gap. As time has gone by, the mainline denominations have attracted more and more people, not only middle class, but just above middle class. At the same time, denominations that often thought of themselves as middle-class churches have, they did very
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  well after World War II until the 1970s. But since the 1970s, the middle-class has shrunk and the poor have gotten a bit larger. But that upper middle-class, that's the one that's... grown the most. And today, 10 % of the population is responsible for about 45 % of the spending. And that's why you find so many places, even like a discount airline like Southwest now, is appealing to those who will pay more. Disney World and Disneyland, ⁓ their most Much of their profit is coming from those that
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  will pay extra not to stand in the lines or pay extra for this or that because there are people who can do that. so increasingly the mainline churches are not able to reach people even sometimes in the middle class, but lower middle class. working people and it's as much cultural and social as it is theological. It's more so. ⁓ And some are noting that many of the less well-to-do people who are not involved in church have fairly traditional Orthodox Christian beliefs. It's not that they're
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  leaving beliefs behind, but once they go to that church, they pretty well see, I don't fit here. And the people who are already there, they get a sense that maybe these folks don't fit either. Loren Richmond Jr (46:27) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, important conversations here. Again, the book is An Or of Hope, United Methodism's next chapter in the United States. I certainly recommend it for anybody who's a part of the Methodist tradition, but I think as I've, as I hope I've made clear in our
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  conversation here more broadly, I really think it's a, I think it's a helpful for anyone in any church context in America. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions. We're back with Lovett Weems and Lovett, really appreciate your time. Appreciate this conversation. Some closing questions. We always tell folks you're welcome to take as seriously or not as you'd like. If you're Pope for a day, what might you want to do with that day? I suppose I could also ask
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  you this question. Feel free to respond to this if you would like. The head of the Methodist Church, if you have that decision-making power for a day, is there one thing you would institute? Lovett Weems (47:38) issue for us for mainline denominations or any congregations is the issue of focus. We've not been able to focus. I mean, if leaders of denominations could come together, I'd say, what is that one thing that's necessary? We're doing so many things. And it's not that we're going to give
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  up on other things. Loren Richmond Jr (47:46) Hmm. Lovett Weems (48:07) But what's the one thing that will be the leverage point that if we succeed at this, many, many other things will come in its wake. And then we will use this as a lens through which to look at these other values and these other commitments that we have. And so I would say there has to be focus. I, ⁓ we talk about in their books of staining while disrupting the sew that concept. There's a chapter on it also in a book that
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  I did with Tom Berlin. And, but it's how you use sew that to focus. We will do X so that Y happens because without that we have no standard. In the church, we focus so much on our intentions and our hopes and our values, but God is calling us to be fruitful. ⁓ Success is not a biblical concept, but fruitfulness is. But we have to get clear on that. And leaders have to be able to help frame that in such a way. Loren Richmond Jr (49:25) Yeah. Lovett Weems (49:36) that then everyone can look at
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  their interest through the lens of that vision or that focus. If leaders aren't providing that, then whatever comes along, everybody will look at it in terms of their own special interest. Now, these special interests are not bad, but they are too narrow. What you want to do is to help people look at their special interests through the lens of the larger goal that we all need. focus, I think, is the challenge. Loren Richmond Jr (50:25) Yeah, yeah. So let me ask this perhaps too then. Is there
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  a Methodist figure, historical figure that you'd most want to meet or bring back to life? Lovett Weems (50:41) Well, you know, I've done a good bit of reading in the 19th century Methodism where a lot of wonderful things, lot of terrible things happen. The historian Nathan Hatch has said that by the 1840s, Methodism had begun its pilgrimage to respectability. And a few forces in that, the 19th century would be interesting to talk with. Peter Cartwright would be one. He actually was the
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  Democratic candidate against Abraham Lincoln for Congress when Lincoln was elected. And Cartwright represented just the opposite of the respectability movement. He was an advocate of the less educated and more populous kind of tradition. ⁓ but at the same time you had people like Nathan Bangs or Bishop Matthew Simpson, who really represented the more education, better churches, better organs, better, and it was reached its height with Bishop Matthew Simpson cultivating that relationship with
• 4:28
  Abraham Lincoln so that he spoke at his his burial. ⁓ it's, we are not, the pilgrimage to respectability brought a lot of, of standing and a lot of influence. The task today is to go back to those original dreams. that God has called us to particular place at a particular moment. And the world is different today. And so we can celebrate all the wonderful things for the past. We can ask forgiveness for all the mistakes. But the main thing is we need to unify in saying, God, show us that next
• 4:32
  fateful step. We will follow. Loren Richmond Jr (52:47) Hmm. Yeah. I'm thinking I suppose in this respectability conversation certainly comes to mind, know, the Azusa Street revival and how that was not respectable at all. that's sort of how, you know, these things happen. I want to ask too, what would you be your hope then for the future of whether it's Christianity, America or Methodism? We've kind of made this Methodist focused. What would be your overarching hope? Lovett Weems (53:43)
• 4:36
  Well, I would hope that we could rediscover the commitment to the common good. The very word Christian has come to have some really negative connotations, especially with younger people. And part of that is the deliberate strategy of evangelicals to define something as Christian when they are actually referring to their interpretation. a Christian Loren Richmond Jr (54:20) Mmm. Lovett Weems (54:22) worldview or a Christian view of marriage or a Christian view of this or that. When they're
• 4:40
  talking about their own particular narrow view, we've not had as articulate spokespersons, so for another view. So, ⁓ it's almost like People will see, we the Catholics with the Pope, and then we have these other Christians, the right-wing group. Well, that's not the case. But we have to unite around the common good. And that's one thing that would separate mainline churches and a lot of others from some that are going today. I think again, John Wesley has something to offer. When John Wesley
• 4:44
  was speaking to members of the Methodist societies, he would give spiritual reasons and biblical reasons for why they should act in a certain way or do certain things. But when he went before public officials, he didn't use those arguments. He knew that they were there to serve the common good. And so, for instance, with alcohol abuse, which was so rampant in Wesley's time in England, he thought it was an abomination to God, but that's not what he would, and that's what he said to Methodists.
• 4:48
  But to public officials, he talked about the amount of grain that was being taken away from ⁓ food. He talked about how ⁓ alcoholism was taking money away from spouses and children. He talked about how many days of work were missed every year because of alcoholism and because his commitment was common good. What if everyone in our community even if they never attended a church, would look at our church and say, that's a good church because they know how it is serving. A Korean pastor told me
• 4:52
  one time that his church was in a part of Korea where there were very, very few Christians and many of other religions. Loren Richmond Jr (56:55) Yeah. Lovett Weems (57:16) But he said that their focus as a church was to say, everyone has an idea of what a good church looks like. He said an atheist has an idea of what a good church looks like. And so that's what we want people to say, to look at us and say, that's a good church. So they tailored their ministries. Loren Richmond Jr (57:31)
• 4:56
  Yeah. Lovett Weems (57:46) to do those things, to be a witness in their community for things that people knew were needed for the common good. The last thing we need is for churches to join the political polarization. We need to clearly say we're not aligned with any political group, but we are aligned with God's values as demonstrated. Loren Richmond Jr (58:05) Yeah. Lovett Weems (58:16) But Jesus Christ, and one of those is, and that's what we're calling you to. I used to have church
• 5:00
  members in Mississippi come up to me and say, Lovett I'm a conservative. And occasionally I'd have some come up to me and kind of look around and say, Lovett. I'm a liberal. And to both, I, I, to. Those that say conservative, I say great. Loren Richmond Jr (58:50) Yeah. Lovett Weems (58:50) I hope you're a good conservative. I hope you're a good liberal. And they would always say, what do you mean? I said, well, I have known some people that were more conservative than they were Christian or
• 5:04
  liberal than they were Christian. That is when push came to shove and it was between their favorite politician and the clear teachings of Jesus, they would go with their politician. or their newspaper columnist. And that's where trouble begins. But I've also known people who may be very conservative or very liberal, but they're able to join with others that may not agree with them on everything because they become convinced this is important for the common good. Loren Richmond Jr (59:24) Yeah.
• 5:08
  Yeah. Lovett Weems (59:52) That's what we need most of, not to just become more partisan advocates. Loren Richmond Jr (1:00:01) Yeah. Well, how can folks connect with you? I assume the book is available from Aberdeen Press and wherever books are sold. Do you have a way folks can connect with you if they'd like to? Lovett Weems (1:00:14) Well, I have a sub stack newsletter called United Methodist Focus. And much of my writing in terms of articles can be found at the website for the Lewis
• 5:12
  Center for Church Leadership. That's churchleadership.com. They have an online weekly free newsletter called Leading Ideas that people ⁓ could subscribe to and ⁓ as you said my book is an R of Hope United Methodism's next chapter in the United States a podcaster misspoke recently and called it the subtitle United Methodism's last chapter in the United States so I hope that is not something that ⁓ turns out to be Loren Richmond Jr (1:01:04) ⁓ Lovett Weems (1:01:11) the case, but as I told a
• 5:16
  group of bishops not long ago, I said, you're not going to be the ones that have to turn out the lights, but it's within sight. So you need to do some things a little different. Loren Richmond Jr (1:01:27) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, I appreciate your time and I really appreciate this conversation. Recommend the book again, but thank you. We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. Lovett Weems (1:01:42) and with you.