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"The Entrepreneurial Church" with Mark DeYmaz · The Weight

• 0:01
  Mark DeYmaz: I'm Chris McAlilly.
• 0:02
  Eddie Rester: And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:04
  Chris McAlilly: To The Weight.
• 0:05
  Eddie Rester: There you go.
• 0:05
  Eddie Rester: Today our guest is Mark DeYmaz.
• 0:09
  Eddie Rester: Mark is a founding pastor of Mosaic Church in Little Rock, Arkansas, and he is a champion of the multi ethnic church. He's written about it. He's lived it more importantly, and he is teaching other churches and Christians, how do we become a body, the body of Christ that is able to give credibility again to the work of the gospel?
• 0:33
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, the unity of the church for the sake of the gospel, but unity that's not rooted in homogeneity, but rather people from every language, people, nation and tribe. He's doing his work in the urban center of Little Rock, Arkansas, but also helping, really, I think, reframe what it means to be in Christian leadership, not only to build a church, but also to think about economic and financial streams that would allow a church not only to be sustainable itself, but that can create economic and spiritual flourishing for the community around the church. One of the things I hear in Mark is passion. He's ery wicked smart, and he's got a quick trip, a quick twitch brain.
• 1:23
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 1:23
  Chris McAlilly: He's fast.
• 1:24
  Eddie Rester: He's fast, he's fast, but he's also patient. I mean, he's fast to think, but then willing to let the Spirit move, willing to let the work play itself out. You know, at one point he talks about this wasn't a three-year project, or I wasn't just here for three years, to say, "oh, look what happened." He's been there now for 20 years, and he talks about the fruit of this long patience of what they've done, but also how they have innovated and evolved over the course of that 20 years to maintain the mission there. So...
• 1:56
  Chris McAlilly: There's hard-won wisdom here. I mean, he talks about failures. He talks about mistakes along the way. And if you feel like you're drowning, you feel like you're just trying to survive, I think there's a lot of hope here. And then also, if you're surviving and you're in a stable place, but you really, really long to see something that would be impactful and sustainable over the course of a longer trajectory, I think you'll gain some wisdom as well. I'm energized by the conversation.
• 2:25
  Chris McAlilly: And, you know, the other thing that I hear is just a deep, deep, deep faith, a faith in God's provision and faithfulness to the church in America, even in this particular moment. And he's seeing, you know, 25, 50, 75, 100, years into the future, and is inviting you to be a part of that project.
• 2:49
  Eddie Rester: It was hopeful for me. Hopeful for me. I think that's the thing that I take away from this. Chris and I are actually fighting to ask questions and to, you know, dig deeper into his work. And I think you will, too. If you're someone who's out there thinking, I don't know if I really trust the church anymore, believe in the church anymore, or I don't know what the future of the church might be. I think he gives a vision of what Christ is calling us to be in this century, not the previous century. So I hope you enjoy the episode. Like it. Make sure you share it with somebody who may be doubting the future of the church as well, or who may need to hear a vision of the church for here and now. We're, as always, we're thankful that you're on this journey with us.
• 3:32
  Chris McAlilly: On The Weight.
• 3:33
  Eddie Rester: The Weight.
• 3:34
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] The truth is, the world is growing more angry, more bitter, and more cynical. People don't trust one another and we feel disconnected.
• 3:45
  Eddie Rester: The way forward is not more tribalism. It's more curiosity that challenges what we believe, how we live, and how we treat one another. It's more conversation that inspires wisdom, healing and hope.
• 3:57
  Chris McAlilly: So we launched The Weight podcast as a space to cultivate sacred conversations with a wide range of voices at the intersection of culture and theology, art and technology, science and mental health. And we want you to be a part of it.
• 4:12
  Eddie Rester: Join us each week for the next conversation on The Weight. [END INTRO]
• 4:20
  Chris McAlilly: We're here today with Mark DeYmaz. Mark, thanks for being on the podcast with us.
• 4:25
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, great to be with you guys. Thanks for having me.
• 4:27
  Eddie Rester: Mark, you're one state over from us in Little Rock. And what I hate is that it's taken me so long to find out about you and the work and the work that Mosaic Church does in Little Rock. Just kind of stumbled into you through one of the folks who works alongside you. And I'm so glad that I've gotten to know your work, and excited to get to talk to you a little bit about that, today.
• 4:50
  Chris McAlilly: We're trying to get Eddie out more, Mark. You know, hard to get him out to Arkansas...
• 4:55
  Eddie Rester: To meet people. I just don't like people.
• 4:56
  Chris McAlilly: So. That's right. So anyway, we're
• 4:59
  Mark DeYmaz: Likewise, Eddie.
• 4:59
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, no, yeah, that's great. In grateful.
• 5:02
  Mark DeYmaz: fact, I mean, it's been forever ago, but the United Methodist Church in Mississippi, I think it's just one conference, right?
• 5:09
  Eddie Rester: Correct.
• 5:09
  Mark DeYmaz: Or it used to be just one conference, and forever ago, they had me down for their annual meeting where I did a couple, at least one plenary talk, maybe some workshop. But again, I'm that could have been 2007, 2008 just seems like forever. But yeah, I've been down. And of course, Dr John Perkins is a very dear friend and mentor and pioneer, if you will, that I've tried to follow in his, you know, in the shadow of his wing, if you will. And so, yeah, love Mississippi in that regard, and the folks there.
• 5:38
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, let's go with Dr John Perkins for a moment, because people may or may not know his work, and I do think... I see, mentioning his name, I can see him in the background of some of the things that you've done, but maybe for folks who don't know, could you give just a sketch of who he is?
• 5:57
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. Dr. John Perkins, Jackson, Mississippi, among other things, co-founder of CCDA back in, I believe it was the 1980s, the Christian Community Developers Association. But of course, a legend, if you will, and pioneer of all things multi ethnic, racial reconciliation. In part, his story was having been, you know, only a third grade graduate, son of sharecroppers, beaten nearly to death by a police officer in a Brandon jail years ago. And in that moment, as he's written about and speaks about, it was transformative for him, because everything in his flesh wanted to get up and kill that person, that police officer that beat him so badly, but the Spirit of God was just crying out with him that you're no different than him in terms of our sin, in terms of need of forgiveness, grace, mercy. And he found it somehow in the strength of the Spirit, in his own pursuit, his own will to will forgiveness upon that person, and grace and mercy, and that transformed his life.
• 7:03
  Mark DeYmaz: And he went on, I think he's probably been in ministry of 67, 68 years. He's, I'm gonna say, 92 years old at the moment. But you know, again, pursuing and advancing so-called racial reconciliation before anybody even had a term for it. Formed a church in Jackson years ago with a white pastor, intentionally to pursue that, and many, many other things.
• 7:30
  Mark DeYmaz: So I think our work, Mosaix, is certainly built, my work is certainly built on his shoulders. Mosaic's global network is in one sense, even though CCDA is still very alive and well and active. I think Mosaix, some have said a little bit more of a 21st century CCDA, pitching forward, as some day, someone will pitch it forward from here, right? So the baton passed. So, yeah, CCDA is still around doing great.
• 7:54
  Mark DeYmaz: Mosaix came around literally 20 years ago. Co-founded with Dr George Yancey, an African American sociologist, now at Baylor, but he and I started in November of 2004 when there were very few and far between people talking about building healthy, multi-ethnic churches. Didn't even have a term for it, and just done our best, really, to fan the flames of what I believe is a 100-year movement on the planet Earth, led by the Holy Spirit to bring us together as one.
• 8:21
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, I love that. And you know, Dr. Perkins, for folks in Mississippi, a lot of people don't, I find, don't know his story. He ultimately became very widely known across America and around the world for the way in which his understanding the gospel opens up a community where people who are different from one another can share in communion with one another through Christ. And I do think that there is this... You know, Mississippi, we tend to have white and... The diversity that we have in Mississippi is white and Black, and at times, Native American and Hispanic.
• 9:03
  Chris McAlilly: And, you know, Dr. Perkins work really gets picked up across the urban landscape across the United States, where people are dealing with multiple differences and seeking, I think, a language, a grammar, a set of practices, and a way of being in the world that would offer folks a way to kind of come together in our shared identity as being image bearers of God, but also, you know, the way in which Christ breaks down the barriers between us. I wonder for you, when you think about, just before we get into the networ, and kind of the larger work that you're doing, talk a little bit about Mosaic Church in Central Arkansas.
• 9:52
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, to tell that story, I had been a student ministries pastor for 18 years.
• 9:56
  Mark DeYmaz: The final eight landed me in Little Rock. I'm actually from Scottsdale, Arizona, and I was brought to an amazing church in 1993 to serve seventh through twelfth graders. The youth group, when I got there, was 150 students. Eight years later, was 600 students. My staff of one administrative assistant went to nine full-time people. The church went from two to 5,000. I built a three and a half million dollar student center with a 36-foot climbing wall, three full court gyms, you know, at a time where those types of facilities did not exist on mega churches. I was in the top 2% of paid youth pastors in America.
• 10:35
  Mark DeYmaz: I was living the dream, until one day in the late 90s, I Those two guys you're talking to have those D.Min demons as well.
• 10:39
  Mark DeYmaz: looked around this otherwise amazing church and realized the only people of color were janitors, and that began to bother me. In 1997 I didn't know why that bothered me so, but I do too. We, all three of us, have demons. I, you know, I having a master's in exegetical theology at the time, now a D.Min in that. And by the way, you know, I'd like to have been in the room when somebody decided to give pastors a demon, you know. I mean, like, where did that title come from? But..
• 11:10
  Mark DeYmaz: don't know, but, uh, but anyway, having said all that, I kind of threw out notes I'd been taught in seminary about the nature of the New Testament Church. I've been taught it was segregated--Jewish believers to Jewish churches, you know, Gentiles to Gentile churches.
• 11:22
  Mark DeYmaz: I've been taught that the homogeneous unit principle was a biblical principle. That is, namely, that the way I was taught the principle is, the church grows fastest when it's homogeneous. That's pragmatic.
• 11:35
  Mark DeYmaz: Yes, that's true, but it's not biblical.
• 11:38
  Mark DeYmaz: And when I did my own research on Donald McGavran. I realized--the founder of modern Church Growth Movement--the principle was actually people come to Christ fastest. It had nothing to do with the church.
• 11:38
  Mark DeYmaz: So in other words, what's the fastest human way to see people of varying ethnicity come to Christ? It's to connect them in terms of linguistics and culture, to people like them. In other words, the first Chinese generation believer with a Chinese person, right? From a human perspective, that's the fastest way to evangelize. But in 1972 that principle got mangled out of fuller and ultimately became the church grows fastest, which further Birds of a feather flock together, so that's already fanned the flames of systemic segregation and separation that is otherwise natural, right?
• 11:41
  Mark DeYmaz: And so in 2001, I set off from that church. I felt called to stay in Little Rock. And much like some of the cities or towns natural. But when we signed up for this Christian thing, we're like Jackson, very segregated and separated, even 15, 20 minutes in our town, is a very different world. And so I stayed And ultimately, by 2001, I began to realize all of that was to live in the supernatural, right? And we're beyond that's in Little Rock, but went to the urban center and brought this idea. Could, to pursue, really, what Christianity Today called, natural. But that natural man, coupled with this mangling of three years later, a big dream in Little Rock, could diverse men and women will themselves, as we say, to walk, work, unintentionally but very significantly undermining the the principle in 1972 essentially gave every white credibility of the gospel. You cannot continue to preach a message of God's love for all people from segregated pulpits worship God together as one? And relocated, if you will, my and pews. The message is unbelievable if you, in fact, are not seen as loving all people, not just people who pastor in America a reason to build, you know, white churches ministry as a church planter in the urban center. 67% of kids look, think, act like you, if you're not seen in a demonstrative way to be doing that, your words fall short in the 21st century. No one's listening.
• 13:20
  Chris McAlilly: One of the things that I've been doing without dads in the home, highest violent crime in the recently is this study in Romans on what is Paul's language full of people just like them, who think like them, talk like city. At that time, 30% poverty, at or belowpoverty. And you around what's natural. And this, one of the things I hear you say know, literally, by the grace, mercy, forgiveness of God, along them. It led to an explosion of mega churches, but they were with just our dogged, you know, refusing to quit on ourselves or that there was this principle that emerges in 1972 around on on the stream, here we are, you know, 23 years later. And church growth, and the fastest way to bring people to Christ is segregated along the lines of color, class, and culture.
• 14:11
  Chris McAlilly: you know, I'm as excited about where we are and what's ahead as by using the tribes for which they are natural. And a lot of I've ever been.
• 14:28
  Chris McAlilly: times when people are thinking about these categories of what's natural and unnatural, it comes up in a human sexuality debate in Romans chapter one.
• 14:56
  Chris McAlilly: One of the interesting things that I found out yesterday is I had never really thought about that before. You know, I do that when Paul's talking about the expansion of the church from think that God's grace is...
• 15:06
  Chris McAlilly: It's a moment where we need to a Jewish-centric church to a Gentile and Jewish church, he kind of recover that, like for all kinds of reasons, that God uses the word "contrary to nature" in Romans 11 as a grafting onto the olive tree of the Jewish people, that the might be... You know, so many of the forces in the culture today Gentiles were grafted on. It was contrary to nature, but it was are really just kind of expressions of what we would according to God's plan. It's this incredibly powerful idea to naturally do if the gospel wasn't there. We're going to all me, that, you know, these birds of a feather flock together, but go in our different directions.
• 15:53
  Chris McAlilly: And yet, what God's Spirit, it what God's Spirit might be doing in the first century, in this explosive, kind of post-Pentecost moment, is doing seems to me, is trying to do in the early church, that you see something that is contrary to nature, but is very much in in the New Testament, is bringing people together in a keeping with the grace of God, to pull together people of every way that is contrary to nature.
• 16:22
  Chris McAlilly: I wonder what you think about that.
• 16:24
  Chris McAlilly: language, nation, people and tribe, into one family, into one
• 16:32
  Mark DeYmaz: Well, you're 100% right. There's so much there, body.
• 16:36
  Mark DeYmaz: and so much I could comment on.
• 16:36
  Mark DeYmaz: But it's not just that he might be doing that in the first century, he was doing that.
• 16:43
  Mark DeYmaz: That's, what advanced the gospel was not the words and the explanation of the gospel. It was the demonstration of the power of Christ to be lifted up and to draw all people, not just summon to himself. A word picture for that, we're on a podcast. So think about Christ with his arms outstretched, right. On the right hand, he's got Republicans. On the left hand, he's got Democrats. He's got Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, rich, poor. He's holding everyone together as one intention.
• 17:08
  Mark DeYmaz: And certainly in the 20th century, even still today, most pastors are trying to get everybody comfortable in the church. That's not where the unity is. The unity is actually in the tension. And you run to the tension, not from it. I'm not talking about a fighting tension. I'm talking about a tension in which Christ is lifted up and we draw to him, set aside past experience, personality, and preferences that would otherwise keep us living, Ephesians chapter six, in the division of the devil, to come together as one to advance a credible gospel for the glory of God.
• 17:38
  Mark DeYmaz: And you get me on the book of Romans. Yeah, this is really, in fact, we just started the series yesterday or two days ago. I kicked it off for our church, on putting on the armor of God, looking ahead to the election.
• 17:46
  Mark DeYmaz: This is a collective expression, right? Paul's telling the diverse church at Ephesus, you've got to put on the armor of God to resist the schemes of the devil, which is essentially division. But having said all that, if you're reading Paul, you're reading one theme, and this, again, I didn't learn this in seminary. They try to chop these books up as if they all have unique themes. They don't.
• 18:07
  Mark DeYmaz: There's one theme, and that's the unity of the church for the sake of the gospel.
• 18:11
  Mark DeYmaz: If you're listening to Mark DeYmaz, wherever I am in America, if I'm writing, if I'm speaking, whatever, sure I'll get some contextual stuff in there at a certain level, but you are always going to hear the same message. And that's the way Paul is. And so every letter he writes, it's all themed around the unity of the church for the sake of the gospel. And that church, men and women, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, Galatians, you know, tells us that this is what he talked
• 18:35
  about, 5: 22.
• 18:37
  about, 5: And then when you get to the book of Romans. Yeah, if I ask most pastors, everybody on the street, hey, what's the theme?
• 18:43
  about, 5: What's the primary reason Paul wrote Romans? Everybody's going to say the gospel. Then I say which gospel? And I love that
• 18:50
  because Romans 16: 25, in his concluding remarks, when he is restating his thesis statement from 1:16 he says, "Now May God establish you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ." The proclamation of Jesus Christ is what you and I would consider or think about the gospel. I call that the capital G gospel. There's only one salvific gospel, salvation by faith, grace through faith.
• 19:12
  because Romans 16: There's not a different gospel in terms of salvation. But as you both know, the word gospel just means good news.
• 19:20
  because Romans 16: That is the gospel of Paul, and that's what he's preaching. And If Eddie's drowning in a river and I pulled him out, that's gospel to Eddie, right? It means good news. So Paul is called to, specifically the Gentiles, but really to bring the church together as one. This is good news. He specifically defines that is why this movement in the 21st century is reformative.
• 19:32
  because Romans 16: it, or calls it a mystery.
• 19:32
  because Romans 16: Romans 16, Ephesians chapter three, Colossians chapter one, even First Corinthians two, four times he refers to a mystery revealed, a mystery of Christ, the will of God. And again, the casual reader of Scripture thinks he's talking about redemption through Christ.
• 19:47
  because Romans 16: That's not the mystery. He defines it in all those places,
• 19:50
  but specifically, Ephesians 3: 6 that not just Gentile but... Not just Jews, but Gentiles can be saved. Not just Jews, but Gentiles are to be an equitable part of the local church. And not just Jews, but Gentiles, will one day inherit the kingdom It's nothing new. It's getting back to the demonstration of the of God.
• 20:15
  but specifically, Ephesians 3: gospel and the power of that capital G gospel to draw all people, not just some, unto God, and to one another.
• 20:21
  Eddie Rester: I think that's so critical for us to hear that it's reformative for us. We are forming again around what we were from the, at the beginning.
• 20:30
  Eddie Rester: Maybe not from the beginning, but at the beginning. You know, I remember the first time in seminary when my professor really started talking about all the people in Corinth, this crossroads of the world, who came to Jesus. And it was people who, under no circumstances, should have ever been together in their culture. The normal thing would have been for them to stay apart. In fact, there were cultural rules and norms that kept them apart, but it was the gospel that drew them together.
• 21:02
  Eddie Rester: Let me ask. I want to push into kind of how Mosaic Church came together. You have this dream of, kind of, this reformation
• 21:08
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually wrote moment in Little Rock. What were some of the early challenges when you set out to do this? I remember reading, I think it was 2021, where you and your wife were praying, and this was truly on your heart, and then it took a bit to get going. What were some of those early moments that were either unexpected or that you did anticipate as you began to intentionally put this church I always reflect on that as a passion that God gave to us, a together?
• 21:45
  Mark DeYmaz: passion. Some call it a calling, right? And there's different my second book, "Leading a Healthy Multi-Ethnic Church" seasons of calling, right? So for 18 years, I was called, if you will, to be a youth pastor.
• 22:13
  Mark DeYmaz: Now I'm called to be a church planter, as I was, you know, 23 years ago. So my profession didn't change, but there was a calling within that calling that changed. And so we received, we heard the voice of God. Think about it, like a man perhaps proposing to a woman, right?
• 22:30
  Mark DeYmaz: Gets on his knees, said, "Hey, will you marry me?" So we heard answers that very question. What are all the challenges, and how that invitation from God to do this.
• 22:35
  Mark DeYmaz: But just like a wife or a woman, you don't have to accept that, right? So then I think about that as prayer. We accepted that. We put the ring on and we got engaged with God in a very specific calling to pursue this church. And just like in a marriage, I mean, sometimes, yeah, the ring comes off, and people get divorced. It happens.
• 22:51
  Mark DeYmaz: But in a perfect world, of course, and all things considered, when you get sideways with your spouse, you look down at a ring, and you're reminded that you made a commitment. And it's because of that commitment and that love that you expressed, that you had, that you know, hopefully, you keep the ring on and you press through those challenges, and you stay patient and you stay persistent with one another, and ultimately, that's where the power of unity comes from for somebody's been married 40 or 50 years. Itt's because, it's not that there weren't challenges, it's that they pressed through them in patience do you overcome them? But specifically, as you referenced, and persistence.
• 23:28
  Mark DeYmaz: And so that's very much what my wife and I have done, and that's not only been on the challenging side of the church, but just our own lives as human beings, my own sin and, you know, a season of midlife crisis that I went through, and my wife just stuck it out with me, and, you know, really called me to step up and be something more than I wanted to be in that moment. And so I'm not just talking about the overcoming those. And like in the book, "Leading a Healthy Multi-Ethnic Church," there's personal challenges, there's cross cultural challenges, there's spiritual challenges and financial challenges, right? So all those types of challenges, how you overcome? But I think at the root of it is that you just refuse to quit. You know, you stay patient and persistent.
• 24:08
  Mark DeYmaz: Learn from your mistakes, of course, and try to avoid them on the front end, but inevitably, my wife and I, after a season of prayer, and, you know, pursuit they're going to happen, and you have to learn from it.
• 24:15
  Mark DeYmaz: In the first ten years, to be a lot more specific, in the first ten years, there were probably three times, at least in the first, maybe even seven years, where it felt like there was a large exodus from our church, a mass exodus. And because, you know when you're starting, we started with about 40 people, and you know, eventually got 150 maybe 200 people. But you know when someone gets sideways over something that the leadership, that we are doing as the pastors, whatever, that you know, in that size church, they start talking, and all of a sudden, 30 people have left in two months, you know. And that happened at least three times.
• 24:53
  Mark DeYmaz: In fact, by the third time, both my colleague Harry and I, senior pastor, Harry Lee. We've been together 22 years. We were literally afraid to answer the phone. Every single phone call with somebody leaving for some of what's next for us, definitely heard the voice of reason. And that happened again over three times.
• 25:11
  Mark DeYmaz: they said, we really think it's time for you to take over, and we'll back you if you if you try to get rid of Mark." And, I mean, you've got all kinds of drama like that. Well, the point is, it felt like, in a metaphor, a boat going around a curb pulling an inner tube, someone on inner tube. You know, sometimes you go fast and that inner tube gets up on its side, and you're hanging on by a fingernail, thinking, "I'm gonna go flying into the trees in the woods, any second. I'm dead, I'm done." And that's how that felt for us, in those first seven to 10 years. We were clearly trying to survive. And we were God in our spirits. We were aligned. We are to stay in surviving coup attempts, if you will, surviving, you know, all kinds of things--where the church would ultimately be, financial challenges.
• 25:57
  Mark DeYmaz: Because in the inner city, for instance, you know, people take money out of the plate. They don't put money in the plate.
• 26:03
  Mark DeYmaz: That's kind of a pejorative, but a joke that we say because I came from a large church, and the more people that joined your church, that church, you made money, so to speak, through increased tithes and offerings.
• 26:11
  Mark DeYmaz: But in the inner city, very quickly, we realized, man, the more people come to our church, it cost us money, and so there were financial challenges.
• 26:20
  Mark DeYmaz: But I say to anybody that gets into this game, so to speak, So you've got to put the ring on and play the long game if you you've got to be called. Now, I would argue, if you're a pastor, you're called, whether you know it or not. Read the New Little Rock, go to the inner city and, you know, pursue this dream.
• 26:33
  Mark DeYmaz: Testament. But if that's not enough, you've got to get before the Lord and get it in your belly, because it's only once it's in your bones and your belly, like I said, and you embrace it like an engagement.
• 26:46
  Mark DeYmaz: That's the only thing that's going to give you the willpower to press on through those challenges, learn from mistakes, make course corrections, be adapted and adaptive. And if you're planting particularly churches like this, or even transitioning dead or dying or stagnant churches, I tell people it's not two to three years to sustainability. That's a whole nother subject. It's seven to 10 want to have more than just, you know, hey, I did this three years to go from survival to stability in this vision, and years. It was really cool, but actually substantive to show in terms of community engagement, transformation, and really, to another seven to 10 to go from stability to sustainability.
• 27:24
  Mark DeYmaz: put points on the board for a win.
• 27:27
  Chris McAlilly: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I want to ask you about two specific challenges, and maybe go a little bit deeper, because one of the things I hear is financial challenges. And then I've got another set of challenges I want to ask you about. So let's talk about the finances. Because I do think in the American church, basically at every level, it doesn't matter, you know, who is leading a church, people worry about kind of where the church is going to be for any number of levels.
• 27:57
  Chris McAlilly: I do think that's one of the things that I found interesting about the John Perkins model initially was, he was working in working class and working poor environments, and he was always, I mean, really hustling, trying to find different ways to bring in economic influx of money so that not just the church would flourish, but that the whole community would flourish. And so I wonder what you, some of the wisdom, some of the lessons that you've learned about different ways of thinking about economics, beyond tithes and offerings, and how you met those challenges.
• 28:35
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. And likewise, I've written a couple books on that, the latest "The Coming Revolution in Church Economics," Baker Publishing in 2019, but as I mentioned, we, you know, when we started this church, and we're renting a facility, we're in the space we're in. You know, people are coming all day, every
• 28:53
  day: "I need prescription medicines." I need my car. It got impounded last night." "I need," you know, "help for the bus ticket," and man, back in those days, we just stopped everything, got all the money out of our pockets, gave it to them. There was just no plan except just to serve and meet needs.
• 29:09
  day: But all those needs were coming so very quickly, we began to experience and understand the needs of the community, not just survey it or look on Google, but felt it. We saw it every day, face-to-face. And we're still in that environment. Real quick an aside, in the last three and a half years, we've had 17 deaths on or adjacent to our property, most related to opioid, you know, etc. So we're still in that environment Now, having said that, we realized very quickly that we could have a nice little church here 70, 100 people and take a paycheck home to my house in the suburbs or wherever I'm living, and, you know, pat myself on the back for being, doing good. But you know, my colleagues that we started with, we're like, "No, we don't want to be that kind of church." Like, we actually want to meet these needs. We want to bring actual, real community transformation and engagement.
• 29:57
  day: And we realized, as you alluded, Christopher, yeah, tithes and offerings weren't going to get that done.
• 30:04
  day: So again, this is evolution to the next iteration of understanding what it means to hustle, but structurally, how do you hustle? Not just you as a person or a pastor, but structurally, how do you hustle?
• 30:15
  day: And that's where probably by 2007 or so we you know, I came up and our elders bought in, and everybody got on board with structuring the church like an American football team. So an American football team, we talked about the Atlanta Falcons or the Dallas Cowboys, as if they're one team. And of course, they are, but when you break it down, it's a team of three teams, offense, defense, special teams. Those are three separate teams, three separate groups of players that don't cross over.
• 30:43
  day: They only play those, you know, offense, defense, special teams.
• 30:47
  day: Separate coaches, separate playbooks, separate metrics. You don't ask the defense, how many points did you score when they come off the field? And to win a big game, you have to have all three of those teams in place and functioning at a high level, you don't win.
• 31:01
  day: And at the time, I was conceiving this transferable model at an aggregate level, at a structural level, to address the financial challenges, I put that on a three legged stool. So it's offense, defense, special teams, like three legs. But in the church world, we call that spiritual, social, financial.
• 31:22
  day: And so the team is Mosaic, but it consists of three different teams, and with different players playing the game, specializing in it. And among other things, three separate income streams in big, large buckets, right?
• 31:35
  day: So on the spiritual side, that's your church side, right? And by the way, it's all spiritual, of course, but just breaking it down. The spiritual side is the church. So the plays are visit people in the hospital, provide for worship, children's ministry, all the spiritual things. That's the spiritual playbook, led by pastoral types, senior pastors, executive pastors, children's pastors, etc. They're your leadership.
• 31:56
  day: But that leg generates income for the church through tithes and offerings, through the giving of our members.
• 32:01
  day: But then we set up the social leg as a separate 501(c)(3), non profit. In our case, it's called Vine and Village. Christ is the vine intersecting the village.
• 32:09
  day: And under Vine and Village, legally as well as practically, we advance, that's how we advance justice, compassion, and merciful work in the community.
• 32:18
  day: So that type of work is not operative under the church. It's operative under our nonprofit, and among other reasons that we did that led by MSW types and social workers, but that's how we get grants and donations, because in most cases, a church isn't going to qualify for local, state, and federal grants because of religious exemption, religious affiliation, and also donations are given by people outside your church. It could be other churches. It could be other Christians, or just generally people in the community.
• 32:50
  day: Andnd typically, certainly churches and Christians typically don't write checks to other churches, but they will write a check to support your food distribution. They will write a check or send some people to work in your medical clinic or your immigration service. So we pick up human and financial resources by aggregating works of justice, compassion, and mercy under that nonprofit and those two organizations live in the same house. So think two sisters in the same house, same family, but different personalities. In the football analogy, playing different games.
• 33:21
  day: And then finally, we have a for profit side. That's the financial side. So that's, on that side, we're leveraging the assets of the church, the big three being people, money, and facilities, to not only advance mission, bless the community, but to generate for-profit, business revenue, ROI, return on investment. And so from a financial--and that's led by business types. So at a structural level, to overcome the financial challenge, we came up with this model and at the financial level, tithes and offerings from your church membership, grants and donations given to the nonprofit from outside the church, as well as for-profit income, by leveraging our facility, for instance, or creating business opportunities, the aggregate of those three large income streams equals the one income stream for the entire church, which makes us not only... We're not only surviving then, but ultimately thriving.
• 34:18
  day: Very quickly, what does that look like? When I'm working with churches and consulting and helping along these lines, often they have a mortgage, and that becomes your first target. So on the financial leg, the first target is, can we leverage our people, our money, and facilities, enough to pay the mortgage? So that the tithes and offerings are not going to bricks and mortar. But using good principles of good stewardship, you gave me five.
• 34:38
  day: Here's your five. I made you five. How can we pay our mortgage? In our case, our mortgage is $17,000 or so a month, and we're up to about$15,000 in business income.
• 34:47
  day: That's $15,000 a month less in tithes and offerings going to a bank. $15,000 more going to the community and to advance the common good, the mission of the church.
• 34:57
  day: And literally, we're in the process of starting a for-profit business under our nonprofit, which is an event center. And we just spent a half a million dollars to ready the facility to compete with mid sized hotels.
• 35:07
  day: And by the time that comes online, sometime in 2025, we will press the $17,000 mark and finally hit that goal.
• 35:16
  day: So that's the structural way that we encourage churches to set up. So it's not just hustling as an individual, and I think that's where we created a way for a church to hustle in the 21st century, structurally and to get beyond the challenge of finance and pursuing this dream.
• 35:31
  Chris McAlilly: Yes, I know Eddie has another question. I just want to say I appreciate that insight. I do think that what I hear is just a transition from a managerial mindset to more of an entrepreneurial mindset in pastoral leadership, and for the sake of not only the unity of the church, but the church wouldn't just survive, but would move from surviving to stability to sustainability, kind of not only spiritually, but financially. And so I appreciate that. I'll pass it to Eddie.
• 36:01
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, I was just thinking, you know, of church's struggle with what you just talked about, that the idea that we could have a for-profit piece, or the idea that we could break a lot of our mission, ministry off here to invite outside funding for that.
• 36:16
  Eddie Rester: Churches have had this kind of... Is it pride that churches have, that we can do these things all on our own? But what, in the churches that you've worked with, if a church says, look, "It's just tithes. We just have to increase our tithes and offerings." How do you begin to move them to see that more entrepreneurial, that more, that broader vision for how we fund the good work of the of ministry?
• 36:49
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, in my book, co-written with my colleague, Harry Lee, but there's two basic ways, sociology and theology, right? So you've got to make the case like Simon Sinek, why, how and what. Everybody wants to know what to do, but if you don't know why and how to do it, you're wasting your time. So the why always gets back to theology and sociology. For instance, I just mentioned stewardship. Most of the American church and pastors think that stewardship is management, but the guy who managed the funds in the story of a good steward is the guy who sat on his asset, right? So you want to get off your assets.
• 37:24
  Mark DeYmaz: That is not good stewardship.
• 37:24
  Mark DeYmaz: That's management. And Jesus, in that story, the master calls him a wicked, lazy slave, and the American church is literally sitting on billions of dollars of unused, buried assets. So good stewardship is you gave me five, I gave you five.
• 37:38
  Mark DeYmaz: We're always making more. With our intellectual capital, our financial, it's all to advance the Kingdom of God and make more disciples, to see more people come to Christ, to do more good,
• 37:42
  Matthew 5: 16, so the light is shown on Jesus. So stewardship in the theology side. Things like, on the sociological side, you know, generational shifts and attitudes and approaches to giving, changing demographics in America. Most pastors still believe if I lose one giver and I pick up one giver, I'm fine.
• 38:06
  Matthew 5: But it will likely take as low as four and as high as 10 additional givers for every person over 50 or 60 years old that walks out of your church with a paycheck, drops dead, whatever. You're going to need minimum of four and as high as maybe 10 givers to replace that one giving, and nobody's thinking about that. And that's a whole nother subject. I wrote an article recently for Outreach. I'm a columnist. You could read about that.
• 38:29
  Matthew 5: But all this to say, we've got to lay the why from a theological, sociological perspective. Then people get that. Then there's some basic hows, as we go into the book, like become a benevolent owner with your space, or monetize existing services, or start new businesses. I, Christopher, like you said, yeah, it's very entrepreneurial, all of that.
• 38:47
  Matthew 5: And that's generally the same.
• 38:47
  Matthew 5: The why and the how is the same for everybody.
• 38:50
  Matthew 5: Then it gets down to context, right? And so what do we do in Jackson, Mississippi, versus the suburbs of LA orSanta Barbara, or whatever, Huntington Beach?
• 39:00
  Matthew 5: And so yeah, then we got to apply all that at a contextual level in terms of what to do.
• 39:07
  Matthew 5: Looking at that question from a different angle, is to say, what prevents it from happening, right? And so, what prevents it from happening is several things.
• 39:15
  Matthew 5: One is well-meaning pastors who try to coach offense, defense, and special teams. Think about it from a football perspective.
• 39:22
  Matthew 5: There's not a head coach anywhere that, except maybe peewee football,that that is not only the head coach, but coaches all three aspects of the game.
• 39:30
  Matthew 5: So sometimes a head coach might, let's say they played quarterback in college. So yeah, I'll be the head coach and I will also be the offensive coordinator. But they hire a defensive and a special teams coordinator. So nobody coaches it all. So you can have well-meaning pastors that become a bottleneck, and they're like,"How can I do all this? I don't have time to do what I'm doing." I'm like, "You don't have to do it all." You got to pick your strength. Be the head coach and hire others, or be the head coach and pick an area and then hire others.
• 39:57
  Matthew 5: So some of it can just be not really understanding how to coach the game, how to coach it out and bring others up. A lot of it is insecurity, right?
• 40:03
  Matthew 5: Because if you empower others, what does that mean for me? So many pastors are insecure. Their identity is wrapped up in what they do. They don't want to empower others, and they'd rather fail and go down with a ship, out of their own insecurities, than read the tea leaves and empower others to come alongside and to work in the strength of their gifting.
• 40:24
  Matthew 5: If you're a pastor or a ministry leader listening to this, I often tell people, it's as important, if not more important, to know who you're not than it is to know who you are. Because when I know who I'm not, I can staff to my weakness, and that's what you want to do.
• 40:36
  Matthew 5: But insecure people don't do that, and so insecurity is a problem for realizing the real gains that come out of this. And again, also still chasing 20th century metrics. You have to realize we're nearly 25 years into an entirely new century, and in the past, it may have worked, tithes and offerings, you have to realize, but today it's multiple streams of income.
• 40:59
  Matthew 5: Just like in the past, homogeneity. Today, it's multi ethnicity. So, you know, upgrading your operating system.
• 41:06
  Matthew 5: My wife told me about that years ago. You know, it's a great But if you think times are going to return to the 20th, you're thing. Go online and Google what happens when you don't keep your operating system upgraded. And there's all these things. Your machine runs slower. It's more susceptible to security hacks.
• 41:18
  Matthew 5: sorely mistaken, I think. And I'll just finish this little It's not compatible with other machines. That'll preach. You know what I'm saying? Like, you can do a whole message on that, and that's the American church.
• 41:27
  Matthew 5: Like, even just from 20th to 21st, we haven't upgraded the operating system. And what we're part with this. We did a conference, one of our talking about today, Christopher, entrepreneurial leadership, and you know is, understanding, like the men of conferences, in 2022 the theme was "Tacked to the Wind," and Issachar, our times, and knowing what is the best course of action to take.
• 41:48
  Matthew 5: it's a sailing metaphor. Because in the 20th century, if you think about it, the church, the Gospel boat, is sailing along.
• 42:05
  Matthew 5: The sails are unfurled, and the winds at our back, and we're just getting blown, blown along.
• 42:07
  Matthew 5: We have momentum.
• 42:10
  Eddie Rester: Don't have too much work.
• 42:11
  Eddie Rester: I've been taking so many notes, and Chris and I,
• 42:11
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. There's a Bible on every coffee table in America. And kids know, you know, blah blah blah. Well, in our lifetime, those winds have shifted, and they're no longer we do hand signals for who's going to ask the next question, at our back. We are sailing into the wind, into headwinds, and tacking is the only maneuver.
• 42:24
  Mark DeYmaz: It's very quick, adaptive and we're just fighting over here. So I've won this one for shortcuts. But the question becomes, how do you keep the gospel boat? How do you keep the church making forward progress right now.
• 42:30
  Chris McAlilly: You better get to your question.
• 42:33
  Chris McAlilly: into headwinds? And I would suggest to you many pastors,
• 42:35
  Eddie Rester: Better get to my question. So I'm going to ask well-meaning pastors are literally just managing the boat at the moment, hoping the winds are going to shift and come to your back again. But they're not. Those winds are gone forever. And if you don't adjust and learn how to tack your organization and make forward progress, all you're doing is managing the stagnation or ultimate decline of your church.
• 42:55
  Eddie Rester: No matter how good hearted you are. You have to adapt yourself you two questions, and it's going to go back to our earlier as the men of Issachar for the times, and begin to tack and learn how to sail a boat in the headwinds, because those wins are not coming back. I've conversation. You talked about credibility earlier, that the church has lost its credibility.
• 43:27
  Eddie Rester: I have two Gen Z daughters. The church has lost its credibility with their generation, for sure.
• 43:37
  Eddie Rester: And so where, my first question is, where have you seen Mosaic begin to restore that credibility with the people in Little Rock where you're ministering? And two, is there anything that you would say to a local church that maybe it's time for them to have this conversation? What's a first step to begin so they can start that journey of restoring credibility?
• 44:02
  Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, probably just a simple, fundamental principle in our standard. So Matthew 5:16, century. In Matthew 5:16 Jesus didn't say, "let them hear your good words." He said, "Let them see your good works." And if you're not advancing. You know, in the 20th century, we sent people and resources across the ocean, money, financial. But people across the street don't even know who you are. That has to change. So the community engagement piece, the local demonstrative works that shine a light on the glory of who God is, how big is his love for us.
• 44:34
  Mark DeYmaz: Ephesians, chapter two, verse 10, the greatest work that we were created for is to be the church, Jew and Gentile, men and women, rich and poor. You've got to get beyond homogeneity into healthy, accommodated diversity.
• 44:43
  Mark DeYmaz: So in other words, not like a all Black leadership and Black structured church with a bunch of diverse people in the pews, or likewise, all white-structured church with a bunch of diversity. That's assimilated diversity. You have to accommodate for diversity, share leadership, etc.
• 44:59
  Mark DeYmaz: So, understanding it's a Matthew 5:16, century, bringing the church together to walk, work, worship God together as one beyond distinctions of this world, as well as then doing the good work of community engagement in a demonstrative way. Feeding the poor. You know, working with the immigrant, etc., justice, compassion, mercy. Those two things at a fundamental level is what will change the game.
• 45:20
  Mark DeYmaz: Now, of course, there's many nuances once you get down that path, but in a very simple way, we've got to bring diverse people together to walk, work, worship God together as one. The church is to be an embassy, and we're to be ambassadors. And you think about that metaphor when you're in, I don't know where the embassy is in France, but if you're there and you set foot in the American Embassy, it feels like America. The flag, the food, the people talk English, and by international law, you just set foot in America.
• 45:48
  Mark DeYmaz: But the church doesn't feel like that, because our kingdom is
• 45:50
  Revelation 7: 9, every nation, tribe, people, and tongue. Like the "he gets us" campaign, those commercials. I'm all in. I got a sticker on my computer. I love, I know those people. I'm all in on it. But the problem is, when people watch those commercials then show up at the church, the church doesn't look like the commercials. No different than the church doesn't look like So this is a huge disconnect, when young people are growing up heaven.
• 46:12
  Revelation 7: in a diverse society, but then they get to the church, and it's systemically segregated, you know, whether intentionally or unintentionally. And so that's dealing with that. And then, like I said in the Demonstrator, organizing to... You know, we just opened, just recently, built showers for the homeless.
• 46:28
  Revelation 7: We got a 2400 square foot medical clinic we're about to open in partnership with Catholic doctors and nurses.
• 46:33
  Revelation 7: That's the stuff that excites everybody. I mean, we got older people that just love our church for that stuff, as well as young.
• 46:39
  Revelation 7: But I think those are the two.
• 46:39
  Revelation 7: If you solve that, you're like 90% to changing the trajectory for younger people, seeing the church become a reflection of the kingdom of God on earth, as well as doing good works across the street, not merely out of sight or across the ocean.
• 46:54
  Chris McAlilly: What gives you hope? What sustains you? What gives you hope?
• 47:00
  Mark DeYmaz: Oh gosh, man, well, number one, the fact that he didn't bring us this far to leave us. First Thessalonians
• 47:09
  5: 24, "faithfully, as he called you, he will do it," just like we see in the Old Testament.
• 47:12
  5: There are so many markers in my own personal life, my marriage,, as well as with our church, where I have failed God. Let God down, let my wife down, let our church down, etc, or vice versa.
• 47:25
  5: But God, like they say. But God.
• 47:30
  5: Right? So that we have these milestones and memorial stones at different parts of our journey, personally and corporately, that we see that God kept us together, kept us advancing.
• 47:42
  5: And I have no doubt, like, if he's done it in the past, why isn't he going to do in the future? So that. You know, at my age, 62 years old, now, over 40 years of ministry, in particular, I have at 23 in this church, you know. Like the guy on the farmer's commercial. I know a thing or two, because I've seen a thing or two. And my confidence is in the Lord. He's brought us this far. He's got more intended. And beyond that from a spiritual side. I mean, it's all spiritual, but very practically. I mean, just in this last year through grants, donations, etc, and we've never had a season like this in the history of our church, but we've had a two and a half million dollars gifted, donated, etc, to the church in a, you know, by the end of this year, two and a half million in infrastructure.
• 48:28
  5: So now a commercial kitchen, showers for the homeless, laundry for the homeless, 2400 square foot medical clinic, as I mentioned, etc. So there's been all this infrastructural development because of opioid grants and all that.
• 48:41
  5: And just like that old adage of the snowball, it takes a while to get rolling. So there's no way God has done this and allowed for this to happen, moved in people's hearts to give, or for us to get grants and receive donations like we have, if he doesn't intend something well beyond what we've ever seen. Like as we told our church, we're not building a commercial kitchen for a potluck. I'll guarantee you that. And so the first use of it is we have hot meals. We already have the largest food distribution the city of Little Rock every Tuesday, affecting 85% of our zip code. But now on Friday, just our first step in, we have showers and a hot meal for the homeless. So that kitchen is going to be used for a variety of ways, to make money, to serve the community.
• 49:22
  5: So again, that gives me hope as well, because most of that money came not from our own efforts, but God moving in the hearts of people and individuals.
• 49:32
  5: And you're like, why is God doing this? So there must be a reason there. There must be something and that also gives me hope. So God's been there in the past. He's here in the present.
• 49:43
  5: I guarantee he's gonna be there in the future, whether I'm there or not. I think God is still there and doing his thing, and I've just been very thankful to be a part of it.
• 49:50
  Chris McAlilly: Mark, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your witness and for sharing some of your wisdom with us along the way. Today, we are so thankful. I'm going to take away
• 50:00
  Matthew 5: 16, "Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 50:09
  Eddie Rester: And if you're interested, let me give some websites and some books right quick. Mark offers a lot of courses. You can go to Mosaix.
• 50:15
  Eddie Rester: It's M-O-S-A-I-X dot info and find out all sorts of information about this larger network of the multi-ethnic church. Ways to engage in that and learn from that as well. A couple of his great books, "The Coming Revolution in Church Economics" is a great one, but also "Building a Healthy Multi-Ethnic Church." So Mark, thank you so much for your time today. It's just been awesome.
• 50:42
  Eddie Rester: Thank you.
• 50:43
  Mark DeYmaz: Oh yeah. Likewise, guys, thanks for having me. And, man I appreciate what you guys are doing your podcast and your work in the local church.
• 50:49
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 50:57
  Chris McAlilly: If you would like to support this work financially, or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]