Latest / The Fourcast / UN aid chief demands Israel opens Gaza border

Transcript

UN aid chief demands Israel opens Gaza border · The Fourcast

0:00
The world hasn't found a way to step up.
0:02
And I guess that's my my demand. My message really is like what
0:05
would it take? We're in a world of strong men,
0:07
aren't we? Of, of Putin and Trump.
0:10
You never hear them talk about the UN.
0:12
It's it's almost like a meaningless institution to them.
0:15
Well, there is a there is this risk that we end up feeling
0:17
slightly orphaned by the international system because in
0:20
a world of strong men, the last thing they need is an
0:22
organization coming in that opposes this sense of sort of
0:26
survival of the fittest. We seem to be in this age of
0:28
indifference, of impunity, where people aren't being held to
0:32
account. Hello and welcome to the
0:38
Forecast. My guest today was recently
0:41
described as having the toughest job in the world.
0:43
Tom Fletcher, the Under Secretary General for
0:45
Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, is
0:49
juggling humanitarian crises across the globe, from Gaza to
0:53
Sudan, from Ukraine to Yemen. He is tasked with relieving the
0:57
suffering of the displaced, the hungry and those in danger in a
1:01
world that may not have the resources or the will to
1:04
respond. Tom, thank you for joining us
1:06
from Switzerland, your headquarters.
1:10
I think we have to start with Gaza because it is such an
1:13
immediate crisis. You have been warning for weeks
1:17
now that people are starving and and they still are today, aren't
1:20
they? They certainly are, and that's
1:23
why, Christian, you know, to your introduction, I don't have
1:25
the toughest job in the world. The toughest job in the world is
1:28
sitting there watching your kid having his arm cut off in a
1:30
hospital without an anaesthetic. The toughest job in the world
1:34
is, of course, being a survivor of sexual violence somewhere
1:36
like Darfur and having to go home to your family and not tell
1:39
them what's happened because you're worried you'll be thrown
1:41
out of your town. The toughest job in the world is
1:44
being one of the 190 million lives that we need to get out
1:48
there and save right now who are not getting the funding, not
1:52
getting the support we need. And of course, the epicenter of
1:56
that need across the world right now is Gaza.
1:59
And it's why there's such a tension on this crisis, and it's
2:02
why we've been sounding the alarm for months now about this
2:06
starvation crisis. The world simply hasn't stepped
2:09
up though, has it? I mean, you.
2:10
You've been sounding that alarm in the Security Council, in the
2:13
media, and people are still today starving to death.
2:18
And that's the tragedy of this, is that we can see what's
2:21
happening and OK, you can't get in, Krishna.
2:23
The media can't get in. You need to be there telling the
2:26
story. We are there.
2:27
We're on the ground. We've got thousands of people
2:30
inside Gaza who are telling us every day.
2:32
And we're passing on that information through the Security
2:35
Council, through the briefings, through interviews like this.
2:38
And the world hasn't found a way to step up.
2:40
And I guess that's my my demand, my message really is like, what
2:44
would it take? Why aren't we seeing that
2:46
pressure that's necessary for this to stop, for the crossings
2:50
to be open. We need all of those crossings
2:52
open. We've got the means to get in
2:55
the aid needed to save these lives, hundreds of thousands of
2:59
lives at risk right now. And it we're being prevented.
3:03
Can you explain what the situation is?
3:05
Because we're getting very confused messages from both
3:07
Israel and the GHF who are suggesting that the UN is
3:10
allowed to operate. So what?
3:12
What are you allowed to do and what can't you do?
3:15
Well, I'm afraid that for much of the recent months, and I, I
3:19
was in Gaza myself in a period when things were operating more
3:21
effectively and we were getting IN600700 trucks a day.
3:25
Still not enough, but but enough to actually save lives at scale.
3:29
I'm afraid that what we've seen since then is that we've been
3:32
set up to fail. So we're getting in maybe 100
3:35
trucks on a good day out of the 600 or 700 trucks that we need
3:39
to to deal with the conditions that we face.
3:42
But it's not a question of just driving those trucks through the
3:45
borders. And these are trucks that with
3:46
baby food on, with anaesthetics on, with essential medical and
3:50
food on. And you have to go through a
3:53
hugely laborious process before you can get those trucks to the
3:57
border crossing and through that border crossing.
3:59
Then you have to unload those trucks onto pallets next to the
4:03
crossing in those Israeli controlled areas.
4:06
You then need to get a different set of permissions for a
4:09
different set of trucks, a different set of drivers to come
4:12
and pick those up. On a good day, we might get half
4:15
of those permissions. The rest are denied.
4:18
You then have to hit a series of Israeli checkpoints.
4:22
Often the trucks turn around because it's nightfall and they
4:24
tell us we have to go back. Or they say the battle lines
4:27
have moved and it's not safe for us to move.
4:29
And even then, when we get through, we then have to cross
4:32
these areas where desperate, starving, hungry civilians will
4:38
hit those trucks, understandably because they will do anything to
4:41
feed their families. So when Israel says there are
4:45
hundreds of trucks waiting to be, you know, driven into people
4:49
and the UN is just not doing it, and we've offered to help,
4:53
that's not true. It's just not true.
4:55
And you know, we, we have to soak up a certain amount of
4:58
this, but you know, we are humanitarians.
5:00
This is our day job. Our work is to move those
5:03
trucks. We've got the distribution
5:04
networks, we've got the community relationships to get
5:07
them to where they're needed to flood the market with aid, which
5:10
is the only way you'll deal with the starvation crisis.
5:13
It's the only way to deal with the looting, with the fact that
5:16
there is that food is being sold on the in the on the black
5:18
market because there's so little getting in.
5:21
We can do all that. The idea that we'd be sat there
5:24
refusing to move aid, you know, it's just offensive.
5:28
Well, I mean, you know, as you know, the Israel says that the
5:31
reason that they, you know, replaced the previous operation
5:35
was because all, you know, most of the aid was being stolen by
5:38
Hamas. How how much aid was being
5:42
stolen by Hamas? How much was were you just
5:44
getting through normal normal channels?
5:47
I'm afraid, you know, as as the people we work with at a
5:49
technical level understand on the ground, you know, this is
5:52
just nonsense. The idea that that Hamas were
5:55
stealing his aid at scale. If there was evidence of that,
5:58
do you not think with that immense communications machine
6:01
out there trying to discredit our work, we wouldn't have seen
6:03
more of that evidence? The vast, vast majority of the
6:07
aid we were getting through when we were allowed to deliver
6:09
without these impediments, without these obstacles, was
6:12
getting to the civilians who so badly, badly need it.
6:15
Now. Does that mean that there isn't
6:17
a grain of rice or a sack of wheat that gets stolen, sold on
6:22
the market, on the black market and that Hamas get some of that?
6:25
It's impossible to guarantee that that doesn't happen in a in
6:28
such a chaotic environment when Hamas have a lot of the power
6:32
and the weapons on the ground. But this is a tiny fraction of
6:35
what we were able to get through to civilians, and that we would
6:39
be able to get through again if we were allowed to genuinely
6:42
operate. If a fraction of the energy and
6:47
money that was being spent on perpetuating this conflict was
6:51
actually spent on allowing us to save lives, we could do this at
6:54
scale. What is really at stake here
6:57
though? Because I can't really remember
7:00
a time in my career where the UN has been so undermined openly by
7:06
governments and you really thought well is this the is this
7:11
the beginning of the end of these big international rules
7:14
and international organisations having any authority?
7:18
So there is a broader sustained attack actually on our values
7:21
and principles, on this whole international system.
7:24
And look, take it from me, I've been doing this job 8-9 months
7:27
now. This is not a perfect system.
7:30
It has its flaws, but we have the most committed people in the
7:34
world, the experts. People are busting a gut,
7:36
working around the clock. Our own people are starving
7:39
inside Gaza. We will do everything to get
7:43
that aid through, but we are facing this much more sustained
7:47
public attack. Now.
7:48
Some of that is just to distract from what's going on.
7:51
Some of it is also because we have a dual mandate here.
7:54
We have a mandate to deliver aid and we also have a mandate to
7:58
come and talk to people like you and the Security Council and
8:00
tell you what we're seeing to bear testimony to what is
8:03
happening in Gaza, just as we bear testimony in Sudan, in
8:07
Afghanistan, in Haiti and Yemen, in all of these conflicts.
8:11
And it's that role which is really under attack.
8:14
And I get told explicitly that unless we dial down the
8:19
reporting, unless we dial down the conversations with people
8:22
like you, that we will face further restrictions.
8:25
And just recently, the head of office for my team, the person
8:29
coordinating this aid delivery, was basically told he no longer
8:33
had access because he's been out there reporting on what he's
8:36
seeing. And told by by the.
8:39
Israeli government, that's right.
8:40
So they control the visas and there is always a back and forth
8:44
over the visas for our aid workers.
8:46
And he was basically told that's it, you won't get a visa from
8:49
now on because you've been speaking out about the
8:51
humanitarian situation, the crisis that you're witnessing.
8:55
Israel says you're biased. You know that you are basically
8:57
against them, that you spell Hamas propaganda.
9:01
I will not buy it. We it is in our DNA.
9:04
It's in our charter, it's at the heart of what we do, that we
9:08
must be independent, impartial, neutral.
9:12
We cannot be biased. It would completely undermine
9:14
everything we do everywhere if we were to show that bias.
9:18
And I've, you know, from the start of this crisis, from my
9:21
first day in this job, I've been calling for the hostages to be
9:26
released. That call should be unequivocal,
9:31
unconditional. We've got to get the hostages
9:32
home. I visited near Oz, one of the
9:35
kibbutz that was hit on October the 7th, where one in four
9:38
people were either killed or taken hostage.
9:41
I'm in regular contact with the families there, desperate to get
9:44
their loved ones home. Desperate, by the way, they tell
9:47
me for a ceasefire as well. And also desperate, importantly,
9:50
because it this isn't a key message to get out as well.
9:53
They tell me that they want the aid to get in.
9:55
They do not want to see people starving on the other side of
9:58
that of that fence. So we will always be neutral.
10:01
We will be independent. You know, we will fight to
10:03
defend the values of the UN Charter and that means we'll be
10:07
neutral. So again, absolute nonsense.
10:09
And I just will not take it that when we're accused of not being
10:13
neutral. You see around 100 aid agencies
10:18
have come out and been fiercely critical of the Gaza
10:23
Humanitarian Foundation, this new organization that is handing
10:26
out aid in Israel and is accused of sort of being an instrument
10:31
of Israeli policy now in Gaza because people are being killed
10:35
either going there or leaving it, but mostly by Israeli
10:40
forces. Now they they say that these GHF
10:43
distribution points are effectively, you know, sort of
10:48
the bait in a, in a death trap for people in Gaza.
10:54
Are they right? So I've I've seen that
10:55
statement, it's a very powerful statement from our our allies in
10:58
the humanitarian movement, in the humanitarian community who
11:00
know the situation incredibly well on the ground and who stand
11:04
for the principles and values as as we do of impartiality and
11:07
independence and neutrality in the delivery of aid.
11:11
The key thing for us here is that aid has to be delivered in
11:13
a in line with those principles. We have real concerns about
11:17
militarized hubs, about security contractors.
11:20
We have concerns, as I've said out in the Security Council
11:23
consistently, about anything which displaces people and which
11:27
risks dehumanizing people. Now we want aid to get through.
11:30
We want starving people to get food, but we desperately want
11:34
that to be done in line with these principles and in ways
11:37
that protects civilians and doesn't harm them.
11:41
Is there, is there some disagreements in the UN around
11:43
this? Because it's being reported that
11:46
some of your staff have met the GHF.
11:48
In fact, the GHF told us that today that they've had meetings
11:51
with UN staff. They didn't say from which UN
11:54
organization. And there is this leaked letter
11:57
from UNRWA, the the, the, the Palestinian Refugees
11:59
Organization chief, you know, sort of basically saying they
12:05
want you to take a harder line. So there have been meetings with
12:08
GHF on the ground, but also in in New York there was a meeting
12:12
last week with several UN agencies present.
12:16
For us, we'll go anywhere. It's the nature of our job.
12:19
I've been recently in Afghanistan talking to the
12:21
Taliban. I was in DRC recently talking to
12:25
M23. When I was in Israel, I was
12:27
talking to the Israeli authorities.
12:29
We go anywhere, talk to anyone in order to try to get
12:32
humanitarian aid through. That doesn't mean that we are
12:35
working together some somehow or that we align ourselves with the
12:38
approach of any of those organisations, including the
12:41
contractors that you mentioned. We have to have this principled
12:45
approach, but we also need to talk to anyone.
12:49
So. So could you imagine UN staff
12:51
working with the GHF? No, I can't imagine that.
12:54
I mean, we, we couldn't work through a militarized system in
12:58
that way. We have to have a system which
13:00
is independent and impartial. That's in our DNA as, as, as
13:05
humanitarians. I don't wish them to fail.
13:09
If they can get food through, that's a good thing.
13:12
But I just wish they would do it in a principle humanitarian way.
13:15
And that that's a view shared, by the way, across the the UN
13:19
system. There isn't a division among UN
13:21
agencies on this. We're speaking as one.
13:24
There's also a report that there is a, there's a plan to possibly
13:29
move Palestinians in Gaza to South Sudan, another area where
13:34
your organization has been very active in tackling Humanitarian
13:38
Affairs. I mean, you know, it's not been
13:42
confirmed, but if this were to be a real plan as part of sort
13:47
of either as the temporary reconstruction of Gaza and
13:51
temporary emptying or something more permanent, what would your
13:55
view of it be? Anything that involves forced
13:59
displacement, ethnic cleansing of a civilian population breaks
14:02
all the rules. And, you know, you hear a lot of
14:05
preposterous, atrocious ideas again and again coming out of
14:11
this conflict. And I'm afraid this is just one
14:13
more of those, you know, Christian, you know, South
14:16
Sudan, you know, the conditions there.
14:20
You know, we operate there. We try to deliver civilian for
14:24
civilians there, humanitarian aid to support those
14:27
populations. Displacing the Palestinians
14:30
somewhere else is not the answer.
14:32
I was in Gaza recently. They want to stay, and they have
14:34
a right to stay in their homeland, in their homes, which
14:37
have been reduced to rubble. But everyone I spoke to there
14:42
said that when the guns fell silent, and as we must hope that
14:44
they will, they would rebuild, that they would stay and rebuild
14:47
their communities again in Gaza. I mean, a big part of your job,
14:52
as you say, is going to these places yourself, seeing it and
14:55
then reporting back on it. How, how do you, how do you cope
14:59
with that? I mean, I, I read, I think an
15:02
interview with you in which you talked about having taken on a
15:05
therapist because of this job. So, you know, as you started, I
15:09
mean, this is a very tough job in terms of the, the travel
15:11
schedule, but, but more in terms of, of, of what you're seeing
15:14
and experiencing and the, and the sense of responsibility you
15:19
have to come out and tell those stories from people who
15:21
otherwise aren't being heard. Because often this will be in
15:24
places. And I went to Darfur in my first
15:26
week, places where the international media can't
15:29
necessarily get. Gaza was another classic example
15:32
of that. But also I got across, I went, I
15:34
travelled across Syria just after the fall of the Assad
15:37
regime and met many communities there, you know, who, who were
15:40
telling their stories for the first time.
15:42
So, you know, my job does feel hard at times, but it's much,
15:47
much easier than being one of those civilians who we serve.
15:50
And, and my job, your job, our collective job, is to make sure
15:53
their stories are heard and that the world responds with much
15:57
greater compassion and kindness to those realities for those
16:01
people. Because the reality at the
16:02
moment is that we seem to be in this age of indifference, of
16:07
impunity, where people aren't being held to account for what's
16:10
happening to these civilians and where this less generous
16:13
approach is becoming somehow fine to say we should cut aid
16:17
budgets at a moment when the needs are actually going in the
16:20
opposite direction. All I'm asking for here is 1% of
16:24
what the world spends on defence and we could save over 100
16:27
million lives. I can't believe, I mean, Can you
16:30
believe? I can't believe that's too much
16:32
to ask. Britain is cutting its
16:34
international aid budget and transferring the money into
16:36
defence. America has slashed USAID.
16:41
What kind of effect are these cuts having?
16:44
The effect of these cuts internationally, it's not just
16:47
the Americans and the Brits, many others, is brutal choices.
16:51
And my teams are every day making the toughest choices you
16:56
can imagine. Life and death decisions, which
16:58
program to shut down, which program to save, which basically
17:01
means which lives to save and which lives not to save.
17:05
And I see that all the time on my missions.
17:07
I mean, recently in Afghanistan, I saw just after the funding
17:10
cuts there started to really bite.
17:13
I sat with Afghan mothers who'd lost their children because
17:16
they'd had to cycle 3 hours on bumpy roads to get to the
17:20
nearest clinic to try to give birth.
17:22
So these are really biting right now, these cuts, and they have a
17:27
a life and death impact and it's why we have to get out there and
17:30
make the case as effectively as we can that 1% of what we're
17:34
spending on defence would actually save 100 million lives.
17:37
Surely that is a mission that we can all get behind.
17:41
How, how do you persuade a public at home that is
17:44
skeptical, that is struggling, that they do need to spend more
17:50
on the crises that you go to? Well, that's the $1,000,000
17:54
question, Christian. In fact, you know, it's the $20
17:55
billion question because that's what it would take to, to reach
17:58
these 100 million lives that we need to, to save.
18:01
I think, you know, it starts with empathy.
18:03
I think we've got to understand that people are anxious at home.
18:05
They're worried about their own families getting hospital
18:08
appointments, about their their kids education.
18:10
This is a moment of anxiety and distraction.
18:13
And that doesn't mean that people are somehow lacking
18:16
compassion for those on the other side of the world.
18:19
I think then there's a set of arguments around self-interest.
18:21
And it's, I'm sorry to put it in that more cynical, crude way
18:24
that will upset a lot of people who, like me, are driven by this
18:27
sort of humanitarian mission. But there is a self-interest
18:30
point, a pragmatic point here, that unless we deal with
18:34
epidemics, conflicts, inequality, poverty on the other
18:38
side of the world, then actually these problems will come in our
18:40
direction. You can't put a tariff on a
18:43
pandemic and you can't stop the migration that will be caused by
18:48
an explosion of these conflicts and actually will be driven by
18:51
climate change in the next 5-10 years as well.
18:55
And then I think perhaps most importantly, we've got to get
18:58
back to the human story at the heart of this.
19:00
We probably don't win the argument by just talking about
19:03
the defence of institutions. And here I am standing in front
19:05
of this picture of of flags. We probably don't win the
19:09
argument by just talking about our values and principles.
19:13
We've got to be talking about those individuals and those
19:15
lives, people who are just like us but are facing these immense,
19:19
immense obstacles and for whom this small amount of support can
19:24
be life changing. We've got to get their stories
19:26
told. Now, obviously Gaza has been
19:30
getting a huge amount of attention, but in terms of lives
19:33
and suffering, you know, Sudan is absolutely terrible.
19:36
There are, you know, Yemen is still very, very difficult.
19:40
There are lots of places around the world where there is
19:42
terrible human suffering that doesn't get the attention and
19:45
therefore doesn't get that cut through.
19:47
How, how do you decide, you know, where you try and shine
19:50
the light? Or are you just, you know, do
19:52
you just have to go where the media attention goes
19:54
effectively? This is a really difficult
19:58
challenge for us. We're desperate to get more
20:00
attention for Sudan, for Yemen, for DRC, and for many of these
20:04
conflicts which which seem to be forgotten by the mainstream
20:08
media. A big part of this, I think, is
20:10
to get journalists in. And I know you, Christian, that
20:12
you do this as well, to get them in behind the battle lines,
20:16
telling the story way more effectively than we can.
20:19
But we've also had to massively prioritize among these different
20:22
crises. When I came into office, we
20:24
prioritised 28 country crises and one of the very, very tough
20:28
decisions as part of our, what we call the hyper
20:31
prioritisation, we've had to do is now to focus on just 21.
20:34
So that means there are country crises which just won't be
20:37
getting the same attention, the same resources that they need.
20:40
It doesn't mean these needs have gone away.
20:42
It's just mean. It just means that we've had to
20:44
take these brutal, brutal choices about where to
20:46
prioritise. Yeah.
20:47
I mean, particularly in the Western world as well, though
20:49
obviously the whole question of waste and, you know, lavish
20:54
headquarters and expenses and highly paid officials and all
20:57
the rest of it is also a big political issue.
20:59
I mean, as you say, you're standing there in front of an
21:01
image of a very lavish looking UN building.
21:04
I mean, how much does the UN need to reform and cut its cloth
21:09
do you think? It's a big part of the answer to
21:12
this. And so as part of what what I
21:14
call the humanitarian reset, we're doing 4 big things.
21:17
One is to define much more clearly the mission around those
21:19
hundred 114 million lives that we know we can save this year if
21:23
we get the resource. The second thing is to devolve
21:25
much more power in this system to give power away to local
21:29
communities. Power shouldn't be with people
21:31
like me standing in front of flags in a, in a suit and tie in
21:34
Geneva. It should be with those local
21:36
community organizations that really know what the needs are,
21:39
so pushing more resource, more authority to them.
21:42
And then thirdly, you're right, this massive area around
21:45
delivery and efficiency. And I've been doing this since
21:48
the first day when I came into office before Elon Musk started
21:51
waving a chainsaw around, finding ways, very practical
21:54
ways, to make sure that we are delivering in the most efficient
21:57
way possible. And we're really driving that
22:00
program of reform and efficiency right now.
22:03
The 4th area that's really important is then defend
22:06
defending international law. As you said earlier, these are
22:09
the values and principles which are under sustained attack right
22:13
now. And we've got to hold the line
22:15
here. We've got to defend this hill.
22:17
We've got to defend the Charter. We've got to defend the United
22:20
Nations. It's imperfect, but it is the
22:23
best idea we've had in our history for promoting global
22:27
coexistence. And if anyone can tell me that a
22:30
world without the United Nations is a better world than bring on
22:32
that argument because we're out there trying to stop those
22:36
conflicts, trying to save those lives.
22:38
And I, you know, that to me feels like a pretty important
22:41
mission. I mean, The thing is, we're,
22:43
we're in a world of strong men, aren't we?
22:44
Of, of Putin and Trump and you know, in different ways, Modi
22:48
and India and XI in China, you know, they, they, you never hear
22:54
them talk about the UN. It's it's almost like a
22:57
meaningless institution to them. Well, there is, there is this
23:00
risk that we end up feeling slightly orphaned by the
23:03
international system because in a world of strong men, the last
23:06
thing they need is an organization coming in that
23:09
opposes this sense of sort of survival of the fittest.
23:12
You know, I've always read, written and and said that, you
23:15
know, we have these two human instincts. 1 is to compete for
23:17
resource and one is to collaborate and work together
23:20
for resource. And the UN is unequivocally
23:23
looking for that collaboration, looking for that cooperation.
23:25
And that doesn't suit strong men who want a more transactional
23:31
might is right approach to the world.
23:33
But that's where you need us as, as humanity, because we were
23:38
invented, remember, because of an age of strong men, because
23:41
we'd seen what happened to the world when we went too far down
23:45
that track of the strongman, of the autocrat, of fighting for
23:49
resource in that way. And we've learnt a lot over
23:52
those 80 years. We're just coming up to that
23:54
80th anniversary. We're constantly reforming.
23:57
But at the heart of all this must be our charter and this
24:01
work we do to, to stop those wars and to to save lives.
24:05
And as I say, there cannot be a more important mission.
24:08
So, so who, who can stand up to them?
24:10
I mean, I guess it's quite hard for you, you know, you're, you
24:13
know, a senior official in a, in a organization that's supposed
24:16
to be impartial, as you say. Is it for the is it for the
24:20
secretary general to stand up to Donald Trump and say you need to
24:23
respect the rules based order? Well, an organization which I'd
24:28
stress is impartial, not just supposed to be impartial, but we
24:30
are impartial. I think what you're seeing in
24:32
this moment actually where some of the more traditional
24:35
supporters of the UN are being a bit more critical, a bit more
24:39
sceptical. You are seeing other countries
24:42
step forward and say, look, this is not AUS LED organization.
24:45
This is not just about the big powers, about the permanent
24:48
members of the Security Council. This is our organization.
24:52
It belongs to all of us. And so many of those smaller
24:54
states, medium sized states, emerging economies, they're the
24:59
ones right now who are saying we've got to defend the values
25:02
and the institution of the UN. And of course, then it is also
25:05
for the SG, as he does to go out there and make the case
25:08
repeatedly, consistently, powerfully, as he, as he does,
25:13
always saying that we can be better.
25:14
And he's launched the UNAT Reform program, which is all
25:17
about making sure that we really are fit for purpose and that
25:20
we're constantly improving, but defending those values that that
25:23
are at the heart of what we do. We must.
25:27
Leave it there. Tom Fletcher, thank you very
25:28
much indeed for your time. Many thanks, Christian.
25:31
Thank you. Well, that's it for this episode
25:33
of The Forecast. Until next time, bye bye.