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Neurochemistry of Trust: Lessons from Molecules to Medicine - EP05 · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

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Welcome to the In Between Trust Podcast, the podcast at the
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intersection of tech and trust. What if trust isn't just a
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concept, we think, but a condition our bodies recognize?
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Today's guest is Yulia Lefla, molecular medicine researcher
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and science communicator working at the intersection of biology,
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neuroscience, and digital ecosystems at The Charity in
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Berlin. In this episode, we explore the
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biology of trust, from oxytocin to immune response, how
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slowness, repair, and ambiguity shape our newer system, and why
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tech must adapt, the role of communication and science, and
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what it takes to earn public and personal trust.
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This is a conversation about sensing, listening, and the ways
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our biology might already know what our systems have yet to
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learn. Hi Julia, welcome to the In
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Between Trust podcast. I'm so, so glad to have you.
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Hi, if I am, thank you for having me.
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It's a pleasure and honor to be here.
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And I was so much looking forward to our conversation
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because your background bridges like clinical research,
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molecular and biology and translational medicine.
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And I was wondering what first part your curiosity about how
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the body organizes, repairs and potentially also builds trust
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itself? In my professional journey, I've
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worked at the interface of molecular medicine, doing
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research that drives medical understanding and how this can
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be pushed towards clinical translation and how innovation
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really ends up in healthcare. And I guess I've always been
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fascinated about how the world works on a bigger but also
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smaller scale. But what really fascinated me,
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and as actually I think still does until this days, how many
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parts molecules interact in a perfectly orchestrated way to
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allow processes like metabolism, allow movement, allow growth.
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So life just in a nutshell. And also how I think,
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statistically speaking, how many opportunities there are for
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something to go wrong. I mean, our body works
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constantly, every second, every minute, every hour.
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And it's amazing to see how often it just works out
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perfectly fine, how strong our system and balances such giving
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the statistical chances. I find that amazing to see how
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even under stressful or depravated circumstances, we can
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or at least try to keep our balance.
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But you you ask about my so, what first sparked my interest?
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So actually during school I thought I was going into a
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languages culture and diplomatic kind of path.
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And I actually chose my high school based on that, where I
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had the chance to learn a lot of languages, although I was
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already interested in biology. So I did Spanish as a second
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foreign language and I actually went on an exchange program in
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New Zealand. And funnily enough, and this is
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where my initials Spark really ignited in biology because I had
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a really amazing teacher there and she taught us a lot about
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complex first ecosystems, which of course nearly, it's a perfect
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way to see up close. And but later on we also went
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into genetics and inheritance. And yeah, from that part on, I
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was kind of hooked. That was amazing and I was also
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wondering what trust means to you personally and what role it
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plays in like medicine and science.
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Not from a metaphorical but from a literal point of view, because
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I can also understand from what you're describing with your own
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path. I do think that is crucial to
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have this trusted relationship. Yeah, yeah.
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I think that's such an important part in medicine, but also
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medical research or science. Trust is literally everything.
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So first, I, I think, I think it's such a great way to spend
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1's time doing research because we aim to try and expand the
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understanding of how things work.
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And to me that's really beautiful, but a constant piece
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of work because what 1 is trying to do is to push boundary to
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gain more knowledge to questioning the current state of
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art. And so they're already, I think
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there must be a lot of trust in the research that we do and how
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to challenge the state-of-the-art.
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How about about your aims, about your motives that you employ
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certain methodologies and also documenting properly to create
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transparency. And also I think sharing your
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work and sharing your insights, discoveries is an essential part
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of that work, part of this principle even because all new
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discoveries somehow need to be put on the test.
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And it is really, really important in science and
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medicine that we have certain checks and balances in place so
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that we know that therapies discoveries are safe and, or, or
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as safe as they can be under respective conditions.
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And I think in the next step, applying medicine to people or
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to patients is also just such an incredible part of trust where
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those parties needs to have a good understanding and a good
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level of trust. So quite honestly, as a, as a
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young woman, when trying to decide my professional part, I
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was afraid of this aspect of trust that is put on doctors and
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medicine. I I was too debating to study
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human medicine to become a practicing Dr., But I was, I was
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really afraid on the responsibility I would
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personally have for for the people in front of me, for their
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lives And destinies can be a bit better dramatic.
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So I went in another direction. I went towards molecular
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medicine, which is basically, I think, yeah, as you know,
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everything that's happening in the human body in a
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physiological but also in a pathological state.
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So doing medical research and translation.
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But yeah, looking at it now of course tells me how silly I was.
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Because working when you create the basis for therapies and
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medical application innovation and also trying to communicate
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not only to your scientific peers, but also the outside is
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also such an important piece of work.
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And it's just as much responsibility, but also on a on
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a different scale. Yeah, I guess you somehow grow
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with your task and also the trust that is given to you.
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And if you look back like, I mean, thank you for sharing
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firstly, because I do think that it's like quite honest also and
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I can totally see that and understand it.
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But at the same time you also mentioned that it make you grow
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over time. Yeah, definitely.
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If you look back, what would you say were like one to two moments
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where you experienced the growth, but then again also the
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trust that brought it with you and moved you forward into like
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the next level of your also career or maybe personal?
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Growth, I think first, so some aspects that really made me grow
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where doing my studies when I just learned so much and found
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so much that interested me and, and people who were interested
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in the same aspects and just, you know, discussing with them
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doing projects, being able and also being interested to do
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projects, working with patient samples and, you know, clinical
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conditions. So that really getting into that
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from a theoretical part, I think that really made me grow because
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my research partners or mentors also always put a great trust in
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me doing all of this work. So I think this was one
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incredible aspect to of growth. But there was also a second
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part, which is maybe even more important that was doing my PhD
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when I, I worked on a project that basically tried to combine
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different disciplines. So I was looking at a medical
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condition, but on the other hand, also trying to use high
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throughput screening technologies.
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And so I, I tried to really combine 2 disciplines that have
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not been worked together before in that particular research,
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research question. So I was, I was the one and only
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experts in in the groups, the institute's trying to connect
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that. And that was really difficult
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from time to time because as much as you try to discuss stuff
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with other persons, being the one, you know, if I discussed,
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let's say the screening metabolic omics part with my
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molecular clinical partners, they did not have any
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understanding of this and vice versa.
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So I really needed to bridge that.
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I really needed to develop language communication in terms
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of trying to translate between all of those different parties.
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And that was really difficult from time to time.
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And from time to time I also felt lonely or I mean, but
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getting out of this somehow made me grow so much because looking
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back, I I had moments where I then found other research that
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could connected to mine or talking on conferences just, you
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know, connecting on people and seeing that, oh, it does
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actually make sense that it adds value Was so was just so much.
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It was. Yeah, it was it helped me so
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much. And it was so just a really
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wonderful experience. And I think this path of going
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through doubts really, in the end helped me to grow and to
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trust in myself and my abilities, what I've learned.
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But this, yeah, you really have to experience it in order to
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know. Yeah, I can totally see that and
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understand it from a also like environment point of view
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because yours is particularly also sensitive to exactly like
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being wrong or right or being also, you know in between all of
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those stakeholders say you were just referring to.
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So building also a platform for communication or something that
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is super important. But then again, there are so
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different kinds of views on the same topic, but bridging those
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views and also clarifying the intersections I do think is
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super important. And I guess and one of the
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topics that you also delved into is like the neuroscientific or
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the immunological point of view from a perspective on trust, but
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also biologically right. And like, is there like a
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signal, a pattern that undermines how trust is formed?
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Or is there something that you could also state how it evolves
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over time? Yeah, I think that's that's a
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tricky but also beautiful questions.
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I believe that trust is based on so many different aspects and
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it's somehow a very complex regulation state.
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So it's not just a single molecule, but it's a systemic
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interaction and pattern that doesn't develop over time.
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So for instance, you know, also connecting to my research
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background, I, I can trust my body to perform movements in
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specific ways. That's based on how muscle,
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ligaments, the skeleton, the bones are organized.
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So in a way, bio mechanic, bioengineering principle, but
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also on a molecular level, there are neurochemical signals sent
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out from my brain to through neurons to a specific place in
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my body, to in my muscles. And there are molecules shuffled
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there to react and to bright energy to actually do my muscle
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movement. And yeah, I can trust my brain
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and my body to orchestrate this intention of movement from my
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thoughts somehow. But yes, also you mentioned the
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immune system. This is also a very big part of
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why I think there is trust in your body, because I can trust
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my body to recover and to cope from infections or injuries
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since the immune system plays a pivotal role in all of these
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processes. So basically think the
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relationship and trust we have with and to our body is really,
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really special. And I think it's also a little
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bit different for every person because all bodies are somehow
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unique, even though we follow a similar principle.
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But how we are made-up is unique because biology comes to
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variation. And I think over time we we
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learn to evolve this relationship and trust with our
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bodies, but also trust between persons.
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Like social trust is highly driven on interactions and on,
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Yep, somehow building connections which are on a
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molecular level driven by hormones and neurological
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patterns like a sympathetic system.
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I think this just evolves step by step, by adaptive learning as
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we go through situations and learn from those.
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But what about, like, those hormones or, like, immune
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responses that tell us whether the system is safe or unlike
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maybe also even threatened? Yeah.
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But then again, also like simulations or something.
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Like, there's a statement that I love to say it's like a lot of
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things are only in my head, like the way that my brain works, but
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they're not, like, actual reality.
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But due to several circumstances, I experience it
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in my head but not in my body, my surroundings.
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And then again, it also impacts the way that my body feels and I
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Do you have an explanation on it and why that is?
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But would you say that things that are in your head, which are
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like neurochemical and neurological processes, are you
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saying that those are not real? Because I would say that it is
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real. It's not just in your head.
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I mean, it is in your head, but it's the process in your head.
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So it's reality, right? Now we could dive into the whole
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conversation about what reality really is.
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But yeah, there will be a whole nother episode though.
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No, I mean, for sure they're, they're real.
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They're just like, I mean, they're real in a sense that I
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form it exactly as you described from a near silo neuroscience
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perspective. But then again, maybe it's also
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something that I experienced either based on like my past or
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something that I experienced based on anticipation that I
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have towards something. But in the actual moment, it's
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like just a thought that I have. OK, see where you're going.
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Yeah. So I think trust.
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So you asked about the connection of trust and hormonal
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and neurological states. So yeah, hormones for instance,
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I mean they regulate relationships and all levels of
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trust between humans or humans and pets.
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One hormone which many of us probably have already heard
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about is oxytocin, which plays a crucial role in bonding and thus
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trust formation. And so there are, there are a
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lot of studies where positive certain directions were
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experienced by the study participants and one could
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actually measure elevated levels of oxytocin in comparison to
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controlled. But you also said about or you
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also questions about stress, stress for situations.
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So we have for instance, cortisol on the other hand,
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which is often called a stress hormone.
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And yeah, increased level can be really associated with
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situations of threat or uncertainty.
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But I also want to, yeah, I also want to say that because I've
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seen it so, so many times on social media recently that there
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is real tips for cortisol detox. Still.
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It's not perceived that it's so important to be there for our
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regulatory system to be able to cope with different situations
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and also stressing situations. And cortisol can really help us
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to to perform for instance, in stressful situations.
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So yeah, I think, I think this is it's, it's an important part
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for our body to create balance and also coming to immune
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responses and the immune systems, there is also knowledge
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about constant stress or uncertainty and distrust.
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So social stresses can really lead to elevated inflammatory
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markers which then also react in your whole body and in terms of
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stress and processes. That is like, it's so
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fascinating because especially as you mentioned on social media
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or like also in digital ecosystem, we talk a lot about
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like those home or hormones or also the impact of inflammation
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in the body. And I do also experience that
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there are like, you know, experts that have so many
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opinions of how you could actually impact it or maybe even
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not. And from your point of view,
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what's missing and how we like think, think about the way that
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these hormones impact trust and but also how we basically
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experience it in the body based on the nervous system or based
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on the sensing part of us as humans?
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I, I believe in what we must not forget in our current society,
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in our current digital media, digital ecosystems, is that we
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are all humans and humans are essentially or essentially work
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with or within relationships which are a part of trust or
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trust is a part of relationships.
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And I think both of these aspects are installed and
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maintained by valuable interactions and also emotions.
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And I think there are, there are basically 2 dimensions here.
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So there's cognitive and there's also somatic trust.
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And for something to trust, I believe we must find X aspects
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which we can relate and understand.
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So that's somehow the cognitive agreement and part of the
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cognitive trust. And maybe at least when it comes
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to, you know, digital media, social media innovation and
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digital ecosystems, we yeah, we really need to connect dots and
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points which we have experienced before.
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So therefore we can trust it. This might be actually just a
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just a thought on that. This might be totally different
19:34
for a young generations since they've been born into different
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systems then maybe I am because I've when when I was younger,
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social media was not part of my part of my identity because it's
19:44
already part of their reality and part of their ecosystem.
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So I think this might be a whole different level of trust they
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have towards digital innovations and social media.
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And I think the somatic trust, so the sensing part of us must
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not be forgotten. Because what the nervous system
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somehow perceives as safe is, as I mentioned before, when we have
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experienced something before and it was a good beneficial,
20:12
pleasant interaction. And what I found really
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interesting, I don't know if that somehow fits.
20:16
Here is for instance, large language models or chat ports,
20:21
which are currently so popular. They have, in my eyes, reached a
20:24
level of maturity and design in their way of interacting with us
20:28
that is perceived human, which we then somehow perceive as
20:33
trustworthy. So for instance, when when I
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don't know, chat to PT or perplexity or so, when they
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pause or ask your questions back, I think this is so this is
20:42
built on human, on human behaviour.
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And I find that really interesting.
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So yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so taking it all together, I
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think trust is built on living and dynamic relationships.
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And I think this is such an important part which we need to
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incorporate in our digital ecosystems.
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What a beautiful capture like and dynamic like relationships.
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I love it. And yeah, but but again, like
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also the topic that you touch up on in regards to AI and like
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digital health, we often aim to optimize, right?
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And also that there's like a lot of data points that we can
21:20
actually optimize against, but the actual body is like full of
21:24
ambiguity and tolerance, but also slow repair, like the
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slowness or some slowness or something that I embrace these
21:32
days. Also a try, at least try.
21:34
And what happens when we when when speed focused systems meet
21:39
slowness of biology and how can we balance it or embrace the
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balance of both of those worlds? Yeah, what a what a beautiful
21:49
and important question. So for CI would not say that
21:52
biology is low, since you know, when something happens to our
21:55
body, when you have an infection or an injury, we like processes
21:58
happen immediately. But of course in relating to
22:02
technology, it is really, really slow.
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Yes. So I think in general, with the
22:09
help of AI or increased data processing capacities, computing
22:14
simulations, we can, for instance, accelerate analysis or
22:19
analyze more complex data sets, even ask questions we could not
22:23
ask before in medicine just due to the advance in technology.
22:27
So, for instance, some drug discovery and target
22:30
identification can now be done using AI, which in earlier years
22:35
would be done simply running arrays and testing different
22:38
compounds manually. Or we can increase time to
22:41
diagnosis, for instance, with the help of algorithms searching
22:45
for patterns, for instance, in images, so in radio, radio
22:49
images. But we what we cannot really
22:52
speed up really is the processes of biology or the time it takes
22:59
for healing, for instance. I mean, you just, you just touch
23:02
upon that, you try to somehow also incorporate the slowness of
23:06
some biological processes like some, some healing, detoxing in
23:11
your life, which I think is so important because we might find
23:13
ways to trigger or even 8 biological processes or to even
23:19
block others. But biological systems somehow
23:22
run on their time, at least until now.
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I don't know what happens in the future.
23:26
But yeah, let's say immune modulation, metabolism are also
23:31
cellular migration or cell proliferation.
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Take the time they need. And I think what's really
23:38
important on the interface of digital innovation and biology
23:43
and medicine is that we need to bridge expectation.
23:47
So we need to bridge expectations of those very
23:51
fast-paced technological advances, for instance,
23:55
immediate results by AI powered tools for very early diagnosis.
23:59
And we need to bridge that expectations and map that to
24:02
biological outcome, for instance, tumor shrinkage after
24:06
therapy or complete remission. So I believe that those digital
24:09
innovations, medical data usage, AI supported tools can really
24:15
make a difference in modern medicine and improve diagnosis,
24:19
improve predictions. So just purely enhance and build
24:23
support structures, reorganize workflows, so we can really have
24:27
again, more quality time between patients and medical health
24:33
professionals. And yeah.
24:35
I can and I, I love that you like highlight those
24:39
intersections because I do think that this is well.
24:42
So like innovation happens, right?
24:44
This is also where you combine like different aspects of
24:47
research, but then again, also from the actual happenings that
24:50
we currently witness, umm, in terms of speed of technology,
24:54
uh, technological evolvement, umm, or also discovery of what
24:59
we potentially also learn else, umm, or on top of facts that are
25:04
al already available. And if we dive a bit into your
25:08
UMM research area, you've worked inside some of the Germany's
25:11
most respective medical research institu institutions.
25:15
According to your experience, what builds trust and science
25:18
inside teams with patients, with the public, but also for
25:23
yourself, like in your work or end at the intersection that you
25:29
embrace? Thank you for that question.
25:32
I think that's a really big 1 and I think that we could make a
25:37
whole episode just on this aspect again.
25:40
Yeah, but that's still a brief and turn focus.
25:43
So I believe that some parts we have touched upon already when I
25:48
talked about how research and how medicine is built on
25:53
principles of trust and literally could not work without
25:57
trust or would be way less effective because it builds on
26:01
transparency and trust. And that really circles back to
26:05
some of the principles I've mentioned on how good scientific
26:07
practice, how good clinical practice is performance, which
26:11
that includes open discussions, proper documentation,
26:14
validation, submitting your work to also peer reviews, other
26:19
people looking at it. Being able also, I think we've
26:22
already briefly mentioned that being able to see when some work
26:26
you did did not work out the way you thought it would be, which
26:29
is also really crucial and important aspect.
26:32
And also being able to accept that and to accept things you
26:35
thought you understood by change since this is the core of
26:39
science. So to never stop asking.
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I think it's really beautiful to do that, but also a piece of
26:46
work. But I think to maybe drive
26:48
towards a more critical aspect. What is nearly not really taught
26:52
in science and medicine in Germany currently, or at least
26:57
previously, is communication. The ability to tell a story, to
27:02
take your knowledge and make it available to others outside of
27:05
your sciency medical bubble. And I have to say this is this
27:10
is something I really would like to address and maybe even
27:12
criticize because I believe that communication and understanding,
27:16
sharing knowledge, building on this is basically the key of
27:20
humankind. But I sometimes have the feeling
27:22
that particular in scientific lead in Germany, it is
27:26
communication is not seen as a skill and not always a favorable
27:30
thing. If you can or could communicate,
27:34
if you are creative and maybe have a way of connecting to
27:38
other disciplines, even outside of science, the things that
27:41
somehow changed when the COVID pandemic hit because we were
27:45
forced to communicate scientific medical principles to
27:50
politicians, to the public, so basically to everybody.
27:53
And also the interest in science and medicine completely change.
27:57
And I really like that because it forces science to step
28:01
outside of its comfort zone. Yeah, I do believe that we need
28:05
to be able to convey important aspects of our findings of
28:09
knowledge to the media, to politics and to the public or
28:14
even in the era of, you know, connecting again to AI and
28:17
digital ecosystems, to info attentions to engineers.
28:21
Yeah. And I think it also goes without
28:23
saying that the skill for communication and even
28:27
translation is even more important between patients and
28:31
their health professionals. Yeah.
28:33
So yeah, I believe there is strong for improvement because
28:36
not all of us are natural communicators, but this is
28:39
definitely a skill we can teach in Europe.
28:41
Yeah, I completely agree. But interestingly and and as we
28:45
come to an end also of our episode, there are some moments
28:49
that I would love to have with you.
28:51
The so-called in between moments.
28:54
These are short questions that I would love one answer from you
28:58
in in one word. And to start with, is there or
29:01
has there been a moment you felt where like real trust was
29:05
visible for you? Like was it in science,
29:07
medicine, or maybe I also in life?
29:10
What were the difficult I believe in science and medicine
29:13
zone work when I'm asked for support in medical decision
29:16
making in life? Every time I'm entrusted with
29:19
emotions or thoughts from people when they feel vulnerable.
29:25
And is there one principle from biology you wish more
29:29
technologists would understood? That communication works on many
29:34
different levels. Great.
29:36
And is there a value that guides you when evidence feels
29:41
incomplete? I think that advancing knowledge
29:46
does not always translate into immediate understanding.
29:50
Such a great observation. Thank you so much Julia, for all
29:54
the insights, for also being vulnerable with us and sharing
29:59
your personal experiences. I appreciate our conversation so
30:02
much and I'm sure our listeners will as well.
30:06
And yeah, I mean, I thank you. Thank you for having me.
30:09
I think it was, it was such an yeah, such an honorable
30:12
experience. And yeah, thanks.
30:15
Your questions really I think also pushed me from time the
30:20
time to think about daily work, to think about yeah, how it
30:23
connects to other disciplines and areas.
30:26
So thank you for having me. Bye, Julia.
30:29
Bye bye.