Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 172 - An New Republic?
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle's waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:57 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G Dr Rad 1:04 And I am Dr Rad, and we are Dr G 1:06 Currently in the very, very edges of time, the end the liminal space of 390 BCE Dr Rad 1:16 Yes. Dr G, boy, has this been an epic year! Gauls marauding around Rome itself, the Romans almost starving to death. Camillus. Was he there? Was he not? Lots of debate there in our last episode on the Gallic sack of Rome, and we've been barreling our way through 390 BCE, my account was basically just a gigantic speech from Camillus where he was trying very, very hard to convince the Romans that they did not want to just pick up sticks and move to ve because it was just, quite frankly, easier than trying to rebuild The damage to Rome the Gauls had allegedly been responsible for, and at the end of all of that, he managed to convince them, and the Romans did indeed start rebuilding, which apparently all happened in a year. And that's why Rome is the way that it is today, a higgledy, piggledy, confusing layout. Dr G 2:20 Yes. I mean, there's reasons to poke holes in most of those stories. Dr Rad 2:25 Poke holes? We do that at the partial historians? Dr G 2:32 Not usually, but I'm gonna take this rare occasion to suggest that we've got some issues here. First of all, if a city has been destroyed, as they claim, that Rome has on some level, then surely the real building process is a great time to lay down some order, some straight lines, some roads that intersect with each other, but no chaotic. Rebuilding commences, and everybody gets their own public tile to stick in their house. It's like they prioritize the pottery aspect, but not the planning aspect, Dr Rad 3:05 which seems very un roman, I have to say. I mean, the Romans of the popular imagination are quite orderly folk. Dr G 3:12 This is true, and I think Rome is trying to now explain to itself why their main city, their personal stronghold, does not replicate the Roman camp system and the Roman colony system that develops later on. It's like they only get into straight lines in the future, and they have to kind of backtrack on this. Dr Rad 3:31 It's like when someone really immaculate invites you to their home, and it's like, disgusting, and they're like, oh yes, sorry. It's just been a really chaotic way. Dr G 3:41 It's been tough. I haven't had a chance to clean up. And you're like, what? Dr Rad 3:45 But why? How? How does this happen? You're so put together. How is this where you live? Dr G 3:50 Like every time I see you out, you're looking great, and it's like, oh yeah, I just threw that on. But at home, I'm just like a little gremlin. So that is how the Romans seem to be treating the story of their origins, and how the topography of the city really looks in later periods of history. And so for to some extent, I think I've mostly done with 390 BCE, and I know that in the previous episode, we talked about a whole bunch of things, or I talked about a whole bunch of things that the Romans were supposed to have done, particularly Camillus in the latter part of this year, which you assure me he could not possibly have done, because that is all still to come in Livy, Dr Rad 4:33 he was too busy giving speeches. Dr G he had some convincing to do. There was some serious rhetoric happening. Dr G 4:39 It was a lot. This was reminiscent of the moment maybe 20 or 30 episodes ago where I was deep in the bowels of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and every single person in the Senate gave an epic speech, and you just have to wade through it and listen. And I've got my chance now, because Camilla's boy can he talk. Dr Rad 4:55 I know, like you know, it's actually making me quite nostalgic for our old Dr Rad 4:59 episodes. Words, where it would just be basically a speechifying Dr G 5:03 back and forth, having an argument. So before we move on from this year and the general chaos that may be some of the events that cover more years than just 390 there is some detail that I'd like to bring in, which is kind of like my side series from Diodorus Siculus, which is Meanwhile in Sicily. Dr Rad 5:27 Yeah, yes. Dr G's side hustle, Dr Rad 5:28 My side branching out from Rome, I know, like, let's check out what the Greek colonies are doing greater I know well, I feel like it's going to become important later on to appreciate what's happening here. But also we have this supposed connection between Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse, and the imputation that he might be involved with the Gaulish force as well. And some of our sources suggest that maybe he had paid the Gauls to like swing around further into Italy than they were planning to initially and to do something about Rome. Now, why he would care about that is anyone's guess, because he himself is really bogged down in minucii, in the toe Dr Rad 6:13 of Italy. We see one of my accounts, I can't remember, which did suggest that he had hired the Gauls to serve as auxiliaries in his own little shenanigans, so in the in the conflicts that he was caught up in. And it was just that the Gauls happened to be passing by see Rome and say, Hey, that looks like a nice place to raid. And so it was kind of an accidental sacking Dr G 6:41 well to rub salt into Rome's wound, we weren't even planning on stopping here. Yeah, this wasn't our game at all. We were just passing through and you looked pretty so another account. And again, because there's so many sources for this, I legitimately cannot remember which source told me this, but the idea was that after the Gauls left Rome, one of the accounts has them heading south rather than North, and they get all the way down into the Calabrian region, and they do have contact with Dionysius of Syracuse's forces as well, before they decide to swing back and head north and leave Italy all together, apparently. So there's a lot going on that suggests that this potential interconnection, it sounds a little bit like a conspiracy to me, where people are like, doing the red string everywhere, being like they're all connected. And whether that's the case or not, I'm not sure that we're ever really going to be able to solve but it is certainly the case that in this moment of time, Diodorus Siculus tells us that the tyrant of Syracuse has taken a whole bunch of his forces across to the toe of Italy and has been engaging in a very long siege of rhegium. And Rhegium is you can see it from Sicily. It's on the west coast of Italy, and he has managed to cut off all of the supplies into Rhegium. So this siege has been going on for quite some time. This whole process has led to substantial problems for the population of Rhegium, apparently, obviously, they've eaten through their food supplies. First of all, then they start to eat their animals, beasts of burden. They also then start boiling up the skins and the leathers in order to get nutrients out of them. Yeah. Yeah. And eventually they're forced into a situation where they feel like there is legitimately nothing left for them to eat inside the walls of the city. So they go out of the city and they start eating the grass. Yes. So this is a horrifying siege situation, much more devastating it sounds than the sorts of descriptions we had of the Gallic siege of Rome, and potentially because it's just been going on for months longer, some of the suggestions in our sources about the Gallic sack of Rome is that the siege went on for about six or seven months. The siege of Rhegium has been going on for almost double that amount of time, and it has led to some really tragic consequences. So there is no way for Dionysus of Syracuse's forces to find out what is happening. They're clearly besieging this city. They have been for a long time. You would notice people in a really weak physical condition leaving the city in order to eat the grass surrounding the city. There is no sense of compassion that comes from the Syracusan forces. When Dionysius learns that this is happening, he basically brings out his own cattle to eat all of the grass in front of the city walls. Dr Rad 9:59 Oh. My God, and see this is why he's called the tyrant of Syracuse, not the cuddly wuddly Teddy Bear of Syracuse. Dr G 10:06 Exactly. This is not a nice guy, and it is so grim what he is up to here, but he ensures that all of the surrounding land of the city is stripped of anything that could be edible, and as a result, the people of regium have no choice but to surrender. Dr Rad 10:28 Sad after going to all those lengths to try and hold out against him. Dr G 10:33 Yes, they tried to hold out as long as they could. They weren't able to do it. When the Syracusan forces enter into Rhegium, they find heaped up dead bodies in the streets. People have just been starving to death, and the people that he does capture are completely weakened, very emaciated. He takes 6000 captives, and he sends most of them back to Syracuse, and they're obviously going to become enslaved, that is, if they survive the whole process of becoming re nutritioned. Because that is a real issue as well when you've really nutritioned, yeah, so if you go into a period of starvation, there is a point where your body cannot handle taking in nutrition. Dr Rad 11:23 I know I was just, I was just enjoying your word play re nutrition. Dr G 11:27 I mean, it's pretty horrific. And I suppose the contemporary example that is worth mentioning is what is happening to Palestinians in Gaza and the challenges that are there, and we're seeing a very similar situation in the ancient world, in terms of people who have been so starved that it's going to be very difficult to bring them back to a good, healthy condition, even if you were to enslave them, which seems to be The intent so beyond that, which is the horrifying nature of siege warfare and the devastation that wreaks upon people. The general of the regians, a guy called Photon, is also captured. Dr Rad 12:14 Ooh, I remember this guy. Dr Rad 12:15 This guy, and Dionysius, first of all, takes Photon's son and drowns him in the sea. Bloody hell yes. And Photon himself is then bound to the siege engines and sort of driven around by the Syracusan forces so he can look upon the devastation of the city treated pretty terribly. And Photon says to Dionysius, reputedly, according to Diodorus Siculus, that he had been more fortunate than his father in one day about the drowning of his son, that his son had received a greater sense of peace and closure by being drowned in the sea than what was happening to him, and Dionysius then leads him around the city, flogging him in front of everybody with a herald announcing the vengeance of the Syracusans, and particularly against Photon for having lead, led the resistance movement against the Syracusans. And the Syracusans have turned up from a different island. They come from Sicily. What are they even doing in Italy? So it seems really legitimate that the regians would be like, This is our place. You cannot have it. So Photon really pays the biggest price for that in terms of his treatment by the Syracusan forces and particularly by Dionysius. So he's now his legacy in terms of the historical record, is that he is recognized as a hugely brave General has endured a lot of pain and suffering, and this is suggestive of his high courage and spirit, and this doesn't leave a good reputation for Dionysius of Syracuse, obviously, but he is gaining a reputation that people are going to fear, for sure. Dr Rad 14:15 Well, thanks for that peppy little episode to kick off. Dr G 14:21 Just in case we thought the galaxy of Rome was was bad. It seems it's a time of sieges in Italy in general, and some of them are going pretty terribly. Yeah, all of a sudden Dr Rad 14:34 it seems like the Romans were more having a pleasant vacation when it came to the Gauls, rather than what they could have been enduring Exactly. Dr G 14:41 They still had their jewelry. They still had their sacred geese that they hadn't eaten yet. Dr Rad 14:45 You know, hey, gold stashed away somehow. Dr G 14:47 Exactly. So there is what seems to be. The larger issue at play is that Italy seems to be increasingly unstable. Places are not able necessarily, to defend themselves. Themselves against invading forces, and we've got two examples in 390 or thereabouts, of foreign invaders coming into mainland Italy and making a real dent in local populations, which gels with what we've been talking about probably for the last decade or so, where it seems like Italy's not doing great. There's been a lot of pestilence, there's been poor harvests, and it seems like trade is not at its greatest extent either. And we're now seeing what could be some of the opportunistic moments that emerge from that process, which is people being like, now's my chance to get in on Italy, and definitely what we get from Dionysius of Syracuse is a very mean and uncompassionate approach to siege warfare. This is probably of the descriptions of sieges that we've encountered so far in broader Roman history up until this point, this one sounds like the worst to me in terms of the nature of the suffering of the people and how the generals are treated in the aftermath of their defeat. So that that concludes 390 BCE, from me. Dr Rad 16:24 What a note to end on. Dr, G, thank you so much for that. That will haunt me in my dreams later tonight. Dr G 16:30 You're most welcome. Dr Rad 16:32 But I think what you said is really interesting. If we look at that wider view of you know what's been happening in the period that we've been talking about, probably for us, over the course of a couple of years. But you know, in terms of Roman history and the history of Italy and this region, you know talking about the last sort of 10-20, years, if we are seeing hardship brought about by things like, as you say, poor harvest and pestilence and that sort of thing, these are exactly the kinds of trends that people who are trying to understand what history can teach us about what our future holds are studying. The idea is, obviously that in times of hardship, it would often be easier if humans could pool resources and also pool ideas, band together and work as a community in order to solve these problems and deal with hardships, you know, spread resources out and that sort of thing. But realistically, if we look at what humans have done in the past, generally, it's actually kind of easier. It's the easy road to just take, to just steal what you need and what resources you feel like you want, rather than to work towards a solution. And that's kind of what we're seeing with the impact of climate change. So often humans are taking that easy but incredibly slippery route, you know, and also giving money towards band aiding the damage, rather than investing in the solutions to prevent those kinds of things from happening in the first place, and and that's the real concern, as climate change starts have more and more of an impact on resource shortage, particularly things like food and water, which is so crucial. Are we going to see more war as people are fighting for access to those resources because it's easier to take than to work towards a solution, or are we going to take the other path, which probably is harder because it requires patience and dedication and and maybe a bit of self denial and those sorts of things, and, you know, hardship in the in the short moment, but in the long term, hopefully it would lead to a better solution. Now the good news is, obviously that the history of the future isn't written. We can decide what path it is we want to take. But I do find it interesting to sort of look at these examples from ancient history, because I feel like they actually do have some bearing on our present moment, even though, for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in wealthy parts of the world. We might not be feeling it right now. It is something that I think in our in our lifetimes, we'll probably have to Dr G 19:08 start thinking about, yeah, definitely. And I think one of the great benefits of history as you know, is this, it gives us a whole bunch of exemplar where be like if this was the situation, and these are the ways that it played out. This is potentially a way that we could anticipate that this would play out as well. It seems a reasonable expectation that if we don't make systems change, that people will be forced into a situation of reactionary change, where warfare and theft the predominant drivers in order to continue survival, rather than a slow implementation of systems change which will allow a more equitable distribution of resources for everybody. And so I think there is a sense in which being a historian is also tied very much into. To your political activism in the sense that you can see where these things have gone in the past, you have a potential to be an influence on what the future is like, knowing what those consequences look like if they play out in a certain way rather than another. And then you can think about how you're going to push your personal energy and think about how that looks to create that systems change that you're really interested in for that equality later down the track. So dear listeners, whip out your political activism. Stay strong. Dr Rad 20:36 Stay strong. I've never been political in my life. Dr G 20:43 We are an apolitical podcast. Dr Rad 20:45 Absolutely never had an opinion. You know, objective, objective history. That's what we're all about here. Dr G 20:51 It's all about the facts, and only the facts. Dr Rad 20:54 That's why we're called the objective historians. Exactly, exactly. All right? Dr, G, well, it gives me great pleasure to announce that I think that this means that we might be moving into 389, BCE, no, it can't be possible. Did this day come? Were my prayers answered? Dr G 21:15 I refuse to believe there must be so many more things that happened in that year. In fact, all of Roman history happens in 390 BCE, and I refuse to leave that year until we've done it all. Dr Rad 21:26 All right, let's do it. Dr, G, let's go into the future. You. Dr Rad 21:53 All right. Dr, G, it feels like way too long since I have asked you this question. But can you tell me who were the magistrates for 389 BCE? Dr G 22:02 Oh, I'm so glad you've asked. I have a pretty long laundry list of people to get through. It is long. Yeah, it is so long. All right, we have military tribunes with consular power. First of all. And excuse me, dear listeners, it's been so long since I've had to pronounce so much Latin one after the other that this might go terribly, terribly wrong. Dr Rad 22:24 Doing our transcriptions, I must admit, has been a lot easier in some ways, for the Gallic sack of Rome, because without the magistrates, there's been far fewer corrections from the generative AI Exactly. Dr G 22:36 Well, first off the ranks is Lucius Valerius, son of Lucius, grandson of Lucius Publicola. He is a patrician. No surprises there the great Valerii Publicii. Dr Rad 22:51 Yes. This is Dr G 22:53 a very old name. This is a very old name at this point. Now, he was also a military tribune with consular power in 394, and he's also going to hold the same role in the future. But I won't spoil that for you by telling you those years yet. Dr Rad 23:06 Please don't Dr G 23:08 We also have Lucius Verginius Tricostus. Now we think he might have been previously military tribune in 402, but frankly, in my mind, that was so long ago that I can't recall well, Dr Rad 23:21 Even Broughton has a question mark there. So I think you're entitled to your lack of certainty. Dr G 23:26 I have questions. Publius Cornelius, and we think he has a third name, but we don't know what it is. Dr Rad 23:35 Well, I mean, if he's a patrician, he probably does. Dr G 23:37 He probably does, but we're not sure about it. Aulius Manlius Capitolinius, and we've seen some Manlii before, so I think none of these names are going to be surprising, but it is confusing because they all sound kind of the same. Yeah. Lucius Aemilius Mamercinus, Lucius Postumius Albinus Regillensis. So that gives us what 123456, military tribunes with consular power, which is kind of like the upper limit of what we've seen in terms of this cohort. Nevertheless, our trusty friend Broughton also has another couple of possibilities on this list a guy called Lucius Papirius Mugillanus. Dr Rad 24:25 I remember that horrible Latin name - Mugillanus. Dr G 24:32 And also big question marks are Marcus Furius, which sounds like maybe it would be Camillus, but maybe we're not really sure anyway. Suffice it to say that Camillus seems to still be the dictator, or is reinstated as the dictator of Rome. So Marcus Furius Camillus is back in the role as dictator, but he does have a new master of the horse, which suggest that he's come out of the role and then gone back into the role because he's appointed a new guy to be his second in charge. Dr Rad 25:08 He's just your side kick Robin to his Batman, indeed. Dr G 25:12 Indeed, And the Robin to his Batman is a guy called Gaius Servilius Ahala. Dr Rad 25:19 We know this name. They so often crop up as master of the horse. I mean, one might be suspicious of what the historians are doing. Dr G 25:27 I am concerned about the list of names that we have, yeah, but he is a new guy. Last year's master of the horse was a guy called Lucius Valerius, either Publicola or Potitus. I'm not really entirely sure there. So there's some confusion, but this guy has a sufficiently different name that we're pretty sure it must be a different guy, right? We also have some really large question marks about censors. It's been maybe a hot minute since Rome has decided to count its population. Dr Rad 25:59 Well, they were, they were spread out everywhere. Dr, G, and then they weren't there. They were. Dr G 26:04 Some of them were hanging out in Veii. Some of them wanted to leave for they. Some of them were in the countryside, hiding from the Gauls in a tree. Dr Rad 26:11 Yeah, don't get any way. This is my tree house, mine. Dr G 26:14 I'm pretending to be a statue, like, so realistic. And I say, like the statues. And so we have some question marks, one, because we don't know whether there are later things that happen a few years from now that mean that they needed to have senses in this year for those things to be true, or whether those things that happen in the future could have been done without the senses and they just got around it some other way. So there's a high level of doubt, but we have potentially Marcus Furius and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus again, because he was question mark, one of the military tribunes with consular power, and this Marcus Furius is obviously the other question mark on military tribune with consular power. So these two guys might have been the censors, but we're not entirely sure. And we also have some interreges, Dr Rad 27:13 oh yes, which Dr G 27:15 it's like stepping back in time, because I think to myself, the interreges are kind of like this lingering role from the kingship period of Rome's history and interreges is the guy who fills in when you don't have the king, but he must have a slightly different role at this point, because it does not make any sense whatsoever to be like we just got the interim King Dr Rad 27:37 hanging around, right? I think it's just about the transfer of power, because they have been cropping up all throughout this Republican period. So I think it's just about those times when Rome needs a placeholder. Every now and then you need a placeholder. Dr, G, yeah, and they just Dr G 27:51 haven't updated the name. Yeah, they're never going to have kings, but they're they don't mind having interim guys. That's right. Dr Rad 27:58 We'll never have kings again, except temporarily in this weird shift system that we've got going every now and then. Dr G 28:04 So there may have been a moment where they've yet to hold elections, which would make sense. They've had a pretty devastating year. They might not have gotten organized in time, and the previous magistrates have exited a role, and they just need somebody to cover the reins of power while they get the next election organized. Something like that would make sense to have interreges for. And according to our list, we have Pubilius Cornelius Scipio and Marcus Furius Camillus. Well, who else this guy's everywhere. There's not a role this man doesn't hold. And so these two, apparently, are sort of getting things organized for a transfer of power, which I don't know, conveniently ends with Camillus being the dictator. Dr Rad 28:50 I was gonna say, from Camillus to Camillus as interreges, and then to Camillus again as dictator. On the other side. Dr G 28:55 This man has sticky fingers, and we also finally, oh, no, not finally. Correction, I've got more to go. There is a named tribune of the plebs. Yay, Power to the People. Hey, yes, up until now, I haven't emphasized this, but up until now, every name has been a patrician name, and the tribune of the plebs is Gnaeus Marcius, so we'll see how he goes in the role. And we also have the name of a prefect who just so happens to be the son of Camillus, yes, it seems. And this prefect is Lucius Furius Camillus, so we suspect that he wouldn't be the first son, because the first son would definitely be called Marcus, if this family has held on to the Roman traditions of always naming the first son after the dad, so he might be the second kid. Dr Rad 29:54 It's definitely evidence of a conspiracy against the Romans to make things difficult for. Of the people that would study them. Yeah, we'll have these really complicated names, and then we'll force the first son to always have the same name as the father, just to really confuse them. Dr G 30:12 Which Marcus are you talking about? And this is why I suspect greatly that the Romans mostly operated in their day to day life on nicknames, because otherwise you would just spend your whole time being like Lucius and 20 guys turn around. It's not okay. Everyone would have to have a nickname for their day to day life, even if it doesn't make it into the inscription, I think all right, so that is my really long list of our players for 389, BCE, oh, it just, it doesn't even roll off the tongue properly. Dr Rad 30:48 I think you did very well. Dr G, it was hard to go back to and then to have such a long list as your first time in a while. Oh, it's tough. Dr G 30:55 So what's happening in this year? That's my big question. Dr Rad 30:59 Well. Dr G, this is the big question, isn't it? Because Livy, in this moment, I think, wants to paint the transition from 390 to 389 as somewhat of a turning point, as you shall see, historians do question the nature of the turning point that he highlights. However, there is no denying that there are some notable changes that we start to see in terms of Roman history after the Gallic sack of Rome, whether it happened in exactly 390 or maybe a few years later, who knows. But around this time, we do start to see a shift. And for some historians, this is really kind of the true beginning of the Roman Republic as we understand it, because so many of our sources come from later in the Roman Republic. By that, I mean we start to see Rome truly embark upon a period of expansionism, where conquest, conquest, conquest is the name of the day. They're going to be engaged in a lot of warfare, as we will see. And by the time we're getting towards the end of this century, we will start to see more of Central Italy under Roman control. Sorry, everyone, spoilers. Dr G 32:17 Oh my No, goodness, Dr Rad 32:19 I know I always forget to say spoilers before I say the spoiler. Dr G 32:23 Can I just note as well is that we've talked a little bit about how Livy book one to book five is kind of like his setup for the rest of his history. And 389 I'm not personally reading Livy, but 389 sort of marks his shift into book six. Yes, which is so we've got this narrative turning point that we see for Livy as well, which is where we start to feel like we're going to get more solid Roman history before. Up until now, we feel like we've been wading through a lot of question marks, and I'm sure we'll still have a lot of questions. But the history of the fifth century, of the Republic and this early fourth century, has been tricky in terms of, how do we know what we know? We don't have a lot of archeological evidence to sort of support one way or the other, the way that these things are operating. We're not sure about the Gaelic sack at all in terms of stratification layers and things like that. So we end up in a situation where the literature is fundamental to our appreciation of what might be going on, but this means that we're also limited by the narrative frameworks that our writers are interested in using. How do they want to see Rome themselves? And what does that also tell us about the history? Dr Rad 33:50 Absolutely, and so we're also going to see some changes for the conflict of the orders. I'm not going to spoil that. I'll just say plebeian and patricians. There's some big things that are going to happen in this century. So that's going to change a little bit. And perhaps we also as a result of the expansion that Rome is going to undergo over the next sort of, you know, 50 to 70 years or so, we're going to see a bit of a change in terms of the way that the Romans conceive of their government, things like citizenship. And we're also going to see some military changes. It seems to be in this century that we start to see the inclusion of the Scutum and the pilum in, yeah, as weaponry. And we also see the transition from the hoplite phalanx to the manipular Legion. Oh, hello. Dr G 34:41 Okay, so the Scutum is the fancy shield. It is the rectangular one. I believe. Dr Rad 34:47 I believe so. Dr G 34:48 And the pilum is the little javelin, which you can also, you can throw it, but you can also stab somebody with Dr Rad 34:54 it, bop it, switch it, change it. Dr G 34:58 It's universal. Yeah, got a problem. Hit it with your pilum. Dr Rad 35:04 Hit it with your pilum stick. And so, yes, it is that kind of shift to what most people probably think of like the as the Republican Army. You know, a lot of the things that most people would sort of know about. And so, yeah, it's kind of an interesting phase that we're getting into. So now I'm going to actually that was something I was borrowing from. Jeremy Armstrong, Thanks, Jeremy. I'm now gonna get into Livy Dr G 35:26 himself also, Jeremy, come on the show. Dr Rad 35:29 Let's chat. I was, you know, we should ask him to come on the show. I was thinking that when I was reading this chapter, I was like, Yeah, this guy, he is on the same wavelength. So Livy, he starts book six with his big sort of transition speech where he's like, Look, guys, I'm going to be real with you. It's been tough to write rooms history up to this point. I know I've been doing it for a really long time, but I'm not going to lie. Didn't really have great source material, not really sure how true. What I've told you is Dr G 36:03 disclaimer, the last five books may have been entirely made up. Dr Rad 36:07 And he says, you know, really, it's because early in Rome, people just didn't write things down enough those archaic knob heads rude and so that's an issue. But also the sack of Rome. The sack of Rome meant that whatever little records he had, like, you know, things that priests were keeping track of, and, you know, recording their commentaries, all of that had been burned when the Gauls had attacked and sacked the city, but now everything is going to be different. Dr G Livy assures you that he has 100% reliable records from this point on. Did you say 100% I'm bringing in my Australian vernacular to our show. Dr G 37:01 This is not a good sign. Livy, not a good sign. Yeah, look, I'm Dr Rad 37:07 going to then immediately swell that by saying most historians think this is total bullshit. Dr G 37:12 Well, exactly. I mean, if the city has been sacked, as you say, and things like the linen scrolls haven't made Dr Rad 37:18 it through the fires, well, they're made of linen. Dr, G, I mean, it's one of the most lovely materials. But delight, Dr G 37:25 not sturdy, not fire proof, yeah. So the idea that somehow, from this point onwards, there would be immediately a great profusion of written material surprises. Dr Rad 37:38 They're writing everything down now they've learned they left. Dr G 37:41 It's got to be documented, and you've got to put it in the filing cabinet, and there needs to be a backup. Dr Rad 37:47 Well, I do like the way that my translator has put this little quotation from Livy. He talks about writing as being the sole, trustworthy guardian of the memory of past events. Dr G 37:59 Oh, that's actually really beautiful. I don't know if I 100% agree with that, but certainly it's very useful when people write stuff down and it lasts and we Dr Rad 38:08 can read it later, precisely, yeah. Look, most people don't think as we know, because we've been through this in enough detail that Rome was set on fire, to the extent that Livy would like us to believe. So the idea that all written records in the city were destroyed questionable, but also probably not true, that Livy has really reliable records. There's definitely still some development. I think that needs to happen before we can safely say that what he is reporting is probably really reliable. Dr G 38:50 And you'll see why, yes, and look and that's okay, I think yeah, our doubt about the source material and where it comes from is going to continue for a little while, and I think this is where having alternative sources becomes really useful, because we can see to a certain extent, where they might have taken a piece of information from a similar place, or they've consulted a similar source, or whether they're just operating in a sort of rogue fashion, or maybe have access to sources that other writers aren't getting their hands on. So it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Dr Rad 39:29 Yeah, look and humans do look for turning points in their histories. That's kind of natural. So I can understand how, in the way that Livy's conceived of everything, particularly with his seeming obsession with Camillus, that he wants to see the Gallic sack of Rome, I think, as a real transition point. And he obviously has a sense that his records get better from around this time. And so, you know, when you're writing things down, it's nice to make a grand statement that, you know, we're starting fresh guys, everything's. To be different after the Gallic sack of Rome. Except it's not because Camillus is still everywhere. Dr G 40:07 Yeah. So Well, I mean, Camillus has a lot of places to be, and my sources went through them and thought that they all happened in 390 but Livy seems to think that he was a bit slower off the bat. Dr Rad 40:19 I assure you, that is not the guess so okay, where we're at at the beginning of 389 so Rome has obviously been heavily reliant upon Camillus. In my account, as we have seen, he's a big deal in 390 they're very reliant on him during this rebuilding period. And they basically say, No, Camillus, you can't put down your dictatorship until you've held it for a full year, because we need you, buddy. We need your power. Now this is unusual. Perhaps it doesn't sound crazy because of what we know of dictatorships that happen later in Rome's history, but up until this point, even though we have had quite a lot of dictatorships, when you actually step back and look at what's happened during those dictatorships, you realize that, like two weeks have passed. It's not something that people have necessarily helped for a really long time. I haven't actually added up the statistics, and I now I'm regretting that, but I reckon that the longest dictatorship we've generally seen, pre Camillus' time, I reckon at most was probably a couple of months. Dr G 41:22 Yeah, we've got this sense, and this comes from later history than where we're at now that the dictatorship is something that you hold for six months. But what we've tended to see in these very early versions of the dictatorship that it's about just getting a single job done, yeah, and as soon as that job is done, and it's this emergency power, then the dictator steps back down. And we've got this really unusual situation now, because it seems like Camillus is being asked to continue well beyond a strict time frame. And they're kind of saying you need to hold it until X amount of time, which is very different from the idea that as soon as the job is done, you step down, they're anticipating that he will have to keep going, and they're not letting him step down to a certain extent, or they're reinstating him in a way that's going to force the role to continue. Dr Rad 42:15 Well, really, he got everything done he needed to in six months, but then that speech he gave lasted for six months, and that's why they were just factoring in time for the Dr G 42:25 speech. Yeah, look, that speech Dr Rad 42:27 was a whopper. Now, eventually, obviously, camilius dictatorship has to come to an end, and this is when Rome decides it's time to have an interregnum. Dr, G, now, the reason being was that it had been under military tribunes at Rome had been captured, and so they think, you know what, let's just, let's take a beat. We need to refresh, and let's just have an interregnum and not hold the elections straight away. So the Roman citizens are completely oblivious to this, apparently, and just working away at doing their rebuilding. Chip, chip, chip. Dig, dig, brick, Dr G 43:01 brick, brick. And I assume that Romans are trickling in from the countryside, returning to the city. They've heard the news people are randomly turning up being like, do we still live here? Dr Rad 43:11 And so I'm told that Publius Cornelius Scipio and then Marcus Furius Camillus, are holders of the interregnum, and that eventually Camillus will arrange the elections. So, I mean, I'm like, Come on, guys, is this really necessary? Dr G 43:27 I'm the guy, and then I'm the guy, yeah, and then I'm gonna be Dr Rad 43:31 the guy again. Yeah, you thought I was joking when I said it goes from Camillus to Camillus to Camillus. I'm not joking. Dr G 43:36 No, I can see it in in the list of people for the year. He's in every Dr Rad 43:40 role, yeah. But meanwhile, whilst all this election stuff is going on in the background, we have a trial on the horizon. So Quintus Fabius is no longer a military Tribune, one of the foolish Fabii, after the whole Gallic sack, helped to contribute to that whole shimozle, and he is indicted by a tribune of the pleb, one, Gnaeus Marcius. So he's basically indicting him because he says, Look, you violated a Roman law because you got into a fight with one of the goals when you were just meant to be there as a representative, as an envoy. You really screwed the pooch, man. And so he was 100% going to be put on trial, but he died suspicious. Dr G 44:33 Question mark, Dr Rad 44:35 yeah, I think that even Livy believes this is far too convenient and that it might have been a suicide or something like that, because I think he knew he wasn't going to be able to get out of this one. Yeah, he Dr G 44:46 definitely stabbed somebody he shouldn't have. Dr Rad 44:50 Yeah, and this, this, I kind of love going back to that moment in the sense that this, I think, shows this transitional period where we're perhaps starting to see Rome. Come out of that more sort of archaic Republican period and into maybe a new phase, perhaps, because it does seem like the fabii were maybe behaving like these sort of elite war leaders, and that's maybe how all this began, in the way that they were conducting themselves with the Gauls and the Romans when they were writing the history, there's hints of that behavior, but they're not conceiving of it that way, and that's where perhaps the confusion arises. Dr G 45:28 Yeah, I do like this idea that we're seeing what is potentially the start of a slow transition from Warband leaders doing what they want to heading up their family and Rome is their second consideration and maybe a small increase in understanding that Rome is the thing that has to come first, and your family is part of Rome, and that's why you can't just go out and stab somebody when you're supposed to be a Roman ambassador. Yeah, yeah, stabbing Dr Rad 45:56 someone when you're meant to be an ambassador is not a good idea. I mean, Dr G 46:00 it seems risky at best. Dr Rad 46:03 All right, so back to our elections. Dr, G, so there are question marks around this because of Camillus repeated involvement in this whole process. As we know, Camillus seems to have been inserted into events where maybe he wasn't originally involved, so not entirely sure if there was actually an interregnum or not. However, given that the Romans definitely have been through something traumatic, it wouldn't be the craziest thing for them to be thinking about, like the renewing the auspices, trying to make sure they're on, you know, the right path with the gods. So it's possible that there was an interregnum of sorts at this time period to ease with the transition and sort of, you know, start afresh, basically, now our military tribunes, as you've highlighted, we've got Lucius Valerius Publicola in Livy's account, Lucius Verginius, Publius Cornelius, Aulus Manlius, Lucius Aemilius, and Lucius Postumius in Livy's account, the new military tribunes asked the Senate immediately about some matters concerning religion, because they also are on the Camillus campaign trail. It's all about doing right by the gods. And so one of their first decrees is, all right, everyone, get your Sherlock Holmes outfits out. We need to find the Twelve Tables and some of the laws that were made by the kings, if it's even possible, after our city's been burned to the ground, Dr G 47:29 somebody find the tablets we need to have law and order around here. They do, Dr Rad 47:34 apparently, do this investigation, uncover some of the laws, and then some of the laws are even made public so that your average Roman citizen knows what they are. This is Dr G 47:47 incredible stuff. This is a huge development in Roman history. Everybody, Alert, alert. People can read the laws for themselves. Dr Rad 47:54 They actually know the rules that they're supposed to be playing by. It's outrageous, shocking. However, there is a very deliberate decision made that anything that touches on the sacred rights, and I'm directly quoting my translation there, is only allowed to be known by the pontiffs, basically because, and again, I'm going to directly quote this, they want to hold the minds of the populace in subjection through religious fear. Dr G 48:29 Look, you win a point and you lose a point, these patricians really okay. So this, unfortunately, makes a good deal of sense for the ancient Roman mindset, particularly the patricians. Dr Rad 48:43 Oh, look, it's what we've seen time and time again. Dr, G, they really want to keep a stranglehold on that religious aspect. They do, Dr G 48:50 and we know that religious positions tend to be filled almost exclusively by very elite patrician families. So there's a sense in which they are holding those secrets very close, and they can decide in the moment what might be best, either according to the things that they've kept hidden, or potentially the things that they've decided not to reveal to the people. Yeah, so I Dr Rad 49:16 like that they also start discussing which were going to be the days of evil omen? Dr G 49:24 Oh, okay, so we're starting to see the emergence of some calendar details. Which days will be fast, suitable for business, and which days will be nefas, unsuitable for business, Dr Rad 49:36 unsuitable for business. So the 18th of July. No shock. This is known as a particularly awful day, because not only is it the day where the Romans were defeated by the Gauls at the Alia, but it also was coincidentally, the same exact day of that huge Fabian loss at the Cremera, like way back in the early republic. Hmm. Yeah, they decided to call it the day of the Alia. No public or private business to be conducted on the day of the Alia. Dr G 50:07 Dr, G, yeah, terribly nefast will have none of that around here. Dr Rad 50:11 Now, there are also some days that fell out of favor because of the conduct of Sulpicius during this campaign. So basically, on a day after the Ides of July. So like a full moon, sort of period, he had made a dodgy sacrifice, and then, without the divine approval to do so, had led the Romans against the goals. We all know how that turned out. Dr G 50:35 Oh no, dodgy sacrifices. Dr Rad 50:38 Good. Yes. Me, not good, not good. So it means that, and I am just going to read this part out, because I think it's just easier afterwards, it became traditional that the morrow after the Kalends so after the first day of the month and the nones, actually, is it knowns or nones? Dr G 50:58 I say nones, but don't let that stop you. Dr Rad 51:01 Okay, and nones that these should also be avoided because of the issues around the conduct of Sulpicius. Wow. Okay, so, yeah, it all is basically, I think, to do with like, moon cycles and whatnot. Dr G 51:18 Yeah, interesting. Very interesting. The Romans Dr Rad 51:23 are now, obviously interested. Now they've dealt with all this, the Romans are trying to get themselves back together, back on track, when the Volscians decide to kick off. Because what better time to attack the Romans than now, when they're still down, and I think that they had come into your account last episode, I see that Dr G 51:45 Livy is falling behind on the narrative history of Rome. This has already happened, Livy, this all happened in 390 BCE, yeah. Dr Rad 51:55 And it gets way more sinister, because the Romans also hear through the trade grapevine that the elite from all the major Etruscan cities had met up at the old shrine of Voltumna, which we actually think was more a place of sort of, you know, religious and social and cultural importance, but it pretty much exclusively turns up in Livy's account as a place of evil plotting against the Romans. They get together and they decide it is time to wage war against the Romans. There's a lot of evil now we're not even entirely sure. I'm just going to remind you exactly who Livy's talking about with the major Etruscan cities. We can be fairly certain of some of them, so probably places like Kari, which is featured very prominently in our account, Clusium, Cortona and that sort of thing. But we're not entirely sure exactly who would be included in this fabled Twelve. We're not even sure exactly where this shrine of Voltumna is. Well, I hope it's in Dr G 53:01 Etruscan territory for what it's called. What it's worth. Dr Rad 53:04 I think we can say that. I think we can say that. And while we used Dr G 53:07 to be able to say that they was part of the Twelve, they no longer exists as an Etruscan. I was gonna Dr Rad 53:12 say he's on my list, but obviously it does Dr G 53:14 not exist anymore. Does not count. So if there's 12, it turned out that there was 11, and they immediately opened up an additional spot for another Etruscan city who was just on the outskirts, being like, why can't I be part of the 12? And they're like, No, we have 12. They lose Veii. And they're like, a place has opened for another city to Dr Rad 53:34 join us. Yes, only my opportunity. Finally I'm in and then to really cut things off and make 389 a terrible year when Rome really just needed some good news. Dr G the Latins and Hernicians also decide to revolt, which is bizarre, because they have been very loyal allies of Rome for almost a century at this point, Dr G 53:59 wow, this is where you really find out who your friends are. First you get sacked, and then your friends decide that they're going to attack you, frenemies at best, as it turns out. Dr Rad 54:09 And look, there is confusion about exactly what was going on here. And there are a couple of different accounts. I believe Plutarch gives a different reason. It's possible that there is kind of something else going on in the background here between the Latins and Hernicians, and it's not really to do with, say, the sack of Rome. Plutarch gives some story about the Latins asking for Roman virgins from the their elite families, and they want to, like, intermarry with the Latins as a way of symbolizing the renewal of their alliance, but the Romans see this as well. If we give you some of our women, it kind of makes it seems like maybe you're holding them hostage. I'm not sure about this whole scenario Dr G 54:53 sounds a bit too much like what we did to the Sabines. Dr Rad 54:57 Yeah. And then there is apparently a servant girl called Tutula, who says that the Romans should pretend like they're agreeing, but really they're going to trick them and teach them a lesson. How so the Romans are going to get together some somewhat attractive women of low birth, if such people even exist in the lower classes? Dr, G, I mean, but they dress them up, give them a pretty woman makeover, make them appear like women of high status, and then hand them over to the Latins. Be like, Dr G 55:36 No, never. We found these women in a swamp. Dr Rad 55:41 Yeah. And then it does become a bit Trojan War. I'm not gonna lie, the Latins are obviously partying. Be like we've got Roman virgins, we've got Roman virgins, and so they're going to get drunk, they're going to eat a lot, and then they're going to sleep very deeply because of all of this. And then that's when the girls steal their Latins. Tutula climbs up a large tree, she lights a torch to send a signal to the Roman leaders that it's time for the Romans there and their soldiers to leave the city and they enter the Latin camp and slaughter them all and capture the camp. Wow. Dr G 56:16 Okay, well, that is hugely dramatic. So we've got the volscian threat. We've got the Etruscans meeting at their secret shrine of evil plotting. And we've got the Latin and Hernicians, who have been sort of meek as mice for quite some time, being like it's our time. Our time has arrived, and almost instantly Dr Rad 56:36 regretting that decision. Look, even Plutarch says, I'm not sure that this really happened. Dr G 56:42 Well, thanks Plutarch. I mean me neither. Dr Rad 56:45 So regardless of whether we think there was indeed a savvy little servant girl called Tutula who managed to devise an ingenious plot based entirely upon the Trojan War to get back at the latinians, it is probably true that there are some issues about the alliance between the Romans and their allies, not that anything's necessarily going hugely wrong. It's more just the fact, perhaps, that it's time, it is time to renew and maybe renegotiate this arrangement which has been in place for some time. So that's probably what this whole thing is about. It's actually probably not really to do with the Gallic sack, per se, although Dr G 57:29 potentially the Gallic sack, having placed Rome in a slightly defensive position, sure means that maybe the Latin and Hernicians feel like now is a good time to renegotiate the treaty in order to get a better favorable deal than what they've previously had. Dr Rad 57:43 Absolutely yes. So Rome is feeling incredibly sorry for itself. Dr, G, it's sitting there with its head in its hands, saying, Does Dr Rad 57:52 nobody like me? Do I have no friends, just enemies. I don't know what I've done to deserve this? Dr G 58:04 Yeah, look, I feel for them to a certain degree, and on the other hand, they did just send a whole bunch of low born women as a trick to their only allies that they have left. But did they don't you? Well, apparently, look, Dr Rad 58:23 Plutarch is writing much later than Livy. Dr G 58:25 That's true. That's true. So, yes, it is a shocking time for Rome. They've had their city sacked, and it turns out that everybody around them sees this as an opportunity to take them down a peg, rather than lift them back up, and I can imagine that they're feeling a little bit bereft, Dr Rad 58:45 yes, and I think that even if we put aside evil plotting and Trixie servant girls, we can definitely see that the Gallic sack might have taken roam down a peg in everyone's estimation, and that's why there's some room for movement, in Some people's opinion at this moment in time. And it's because of all of this that the Romans say, You know what, if I only have enemies, then it's time to use my knowledge from history and go back to the plan that has always worked to put me back in the number one spot, and that is to make Camillus dictator. Dr G 59:26 You know? What will solve our woes that man? And he's like, yep. Dr Rad 59:30 And I think that's probably a really good moment to wrap up this episode, because, believe it or not, listeners 389 still has a long way to go in my account. Dr G 59:39 Oh, goodness me. All right. Well, that means it is time for the partial pick. Dr Rad 59:53 All right. Dr, G, tell us, how does the partial pick work? Dr G 59:56 Please. Well, the partial pick the Romans, they're really trying. Thing to win 50 Golden Eagles from us according to the categories that we made up. Dr Rad 1:00:06 Hey, if look like and Livy are making up things, I don't see why we should stop. Dr G 1:00:11 It's a great barometer of how they're going. So they can potentially get up to 10 golden eagles in each of the five categories. And let's see how they do based on what we've talked about in this episode. Dr Rad 1:00:25 All right. Dr, G, what is our first category, please, military clout. Hmm, well, not really. There's not really. I mean, there will be, there will be a lot of military action in this year, but at this point, Dr G 1:00:40 no, no, I suppose we could count their sacking of the Latin and Hernician camp Dr G 1:00:49 as true. If we think it is real, let's, Dr G 1:00:53 let's say for a moment that it's something that they might have done that probably gives them a two at the very most, Dr Rad 1:01:01 yeah, yeah, I think so yeah, top those Latins lessons, Dr G 1:01:05 yeah, all right. Our second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 1:01:10 Well, again, Latin camp, probably not a great example. Dr G 1:01:15 Well, and that's that too lost. So who do they negotiate with almost nobody, yeah, not really. Dr Rad 1:01:22 I mean, everyone is kind of turning on them, I think, and they have yet Dr G 1:01:27 to figure out what they do in response to that. So that's a zero, yeah? Dr Rad 1:01:31 Expansion, definitely not. They're still just hanging on to their own city and trying to rebuild it. Quite frankly, yes, it Dr G 1:01:39 is a shattered moment for Rome. We're to Dr Rad 1:01:42 us, definitely no opportunity for that. Dr G 1:01:45 All right, another zero citizen Dr Rad 1:01:49 score, okay? I mean, they know some of the laws now. Camillus is basically been in power the entire time somehow, which they like, apparently, Dr G 1:02:01 yeah, they're into that. And they are in this, what is, what we think is a rebuilding phase, yes. So that's better than being in a destruction phase. Dr Rad 1:02:11 Yeah, they're in their rebuilding era, building maybe like a five, yeah? Dr G 1:02:17 I mean, it's not terrible yet, although there are a lot of threats that are now clearly on the horizon. Dr Rad 1:02:23 Look, there are, and I feel kind of bad rating Rome on just the first bit of 389 to be honest, because there's just so much to come. But for now, for now, I feel like, you know, we're not seeing the persecution of plebeians or anything like that. We're seeing we're seeing a clever lower class women at work, which is unusual. Dr G 1:02:45 Yeah, that's true. Dr Rad 1:02:47 We know probably fictional. Dr G 1:02:48 It is very unusual for us to get named women in Roman history in this period, so the fact that we have one is pretty impressive. We have a citizen who was not a patrician, who was also a woman who has a name, and came up with an idea that made it into somebody's version of history? Dr Rad 1:03:07 Absolutely, yeah, even though Plutarch might be like, Hmm, at the same time, somebody's talking about it, if it survived down to plutarch's time. I mean, he's writing, God, what the second century? Dr G 1:03:18 CE, he's a lot. I'm so used to saying BC, Dr Rad 1:03:21 I had to stop myself for a moment. There. Moment. He's writing so much later. Dr G 1:03:24 Yeah, yeah. So whatever this story is, and whenever it cropped up, it's, it's come up in such a way that Plutarch is, like, it's worth mentioning, even if I have doubts about it, which I think is quite interesting. So it is and, Dr Rad 1:03:40 oh, I always almost forgot foolish Fabians to account for all the damage that they unleashed. I mean, it's basically all their fault. I don't want to point fingers. Dr G 1:03:53 Finally, there shall be justice for the people. Yeah, all right, five. I think five is good based on that? Dr Rad 1:04:00 Well, I'm afraid that that still only gives the Romans seven golden eagles. And to be honest, they're very shaky. They're not on solid source material. But we have to keep in mind that's just the first part of 389. Dr G 1:04:16 There shall be more, dear listeners, shall be blood. Well, unsurprising to me. Dr Rad 1:04:26 All right. Dr, G, thank you so much for joining me in a new era. It's exciting. Dr G 1:04:31 I'm glad to be here. I'm looking forward to Livy retelling the things that have already happened. Frankly, what Livy does best. I'll catch you next time. Dr Rad 1:04:50 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, the Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi, but you can also support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to say somewhere to some of our newest Patreons, Meryl, Jacob, Cindy and Vivek. Welcome to our Partial band. However, if you are surrounded by enemies on all sides, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai