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The Odyssey -- Movie Review | Yaron Brook Show · Yaron Brook Show

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  Speaker 1: M fundamental principles about freedom, national self interest, and individual wats.
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  Speaker 1: This is the Uran Brooks show. All right, everybody, welcome
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  Speaker 1: to yourn group show on this all the fundamental principles today.
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  Speaker 1: I wanted to see the audisty itselfish and Orleans and
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  Speaker 1: visual watch rockbusting movie. It's doing this from what Love
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  Speaker 1: theater in there's been what you go on? Have everybody
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  Speaker 1: walking on this? Yes, let's get rid of that. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: let's see super chatters. Let me know if everything's okay,
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  Speaker 1: if you can hear, if you can see, if the
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  Speaker 1: particularly the audio is being is being a challenge well
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  Speaker 1: on the road, so let me know if that is.
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  Speaker 1: That is all good. So today we're going to talk
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  Speaker 1: about Odissey. We'll talk about the movie and we'll talk about, uh,
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  Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of the comparison between the movie
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  Speaker 1: and Homer's Odyssey and and what the differences mean and
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  Speaker 1: what they signify. We'll talk about a little bit about
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  Speaker 1: the aesthetics of the movie well, but we'll also talk
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  Speaker 1: about the philosophical move meaning as I see it, of
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  Speaker 1: the movie, and particularly the philosophical significance of the changes,
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  Speaker 1: the changes that Nolan made to the story and and
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  Speaker 1: to what extent those mean something have have have some
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  Speaker 1: kind of significance, because I think they all they all do.
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  Speaker 1: But let me let me say a few things about
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  Speaker 1: movie reviews and uh and then also about yeah, about
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  Speaker 1: movie reviews and about the uh uh kind of this
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  Speaker 1: this particular movie and adaptations of works. So with a
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  Speaker 1: lot of movie reviews, I think it's important to note
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  Speaker 1: that I'm not here going to say this is a good, great,
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  Speaker 1: bad movie from an esthetic perspective. I really think you
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  Speaker 1: have to be an expert in the aesthetic of movie making.
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  Speaker 1: You have to really know movies. You have to be
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  Speaker 1: able to really analyze the movie. You have to you
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  Speaker 1: know the and movies are the most complex of all
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  Speaker 1: art forms. To say a painting is good or bad
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  Speaker 1: from an aesthetic perspective, it's hard. Uh is the use
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  Speaker 1: of light? Is the use of color? Is the anatomy? Right?
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  Speaker 1: Is other different components in the painting? Uh? You know,
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  Speaker 1: adding up to a theme? Do they do they actually do?
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  Speaker 1: Do they correspond to the theme that is coming through?
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  Speaker 1: Or are they contradicting that theme? So you know, how
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  Speaker 1: well is the work integrated? That is really hard. Expressions
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  Speaker 1: the hand movements, the positioning of the bodies. You know,
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  Speaker 1: all of that goes into an aesthetic analysis of painting,
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  Speaker 1: above and beyond a philosophical analysis or just a question
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  Speaker 1: of beauty or not, and that owise, you know, real
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  Speaker 1: knowledge of the arts of painting. Movies are more complicated
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  Speaker 1: because movies have many, many dimensions. Movies are primarily a
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  Speaker 1: visual art form, you know, so cinematography and the positioning
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  Speaker 1: on the screen and lighting and everything that goes into painting.
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  Speaker 1: The analysis of painting happens in a movie as well.
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  Speaker 1: But then add to that a story and the the
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  Speaker 1: ability to tell a story and how well it's told.
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  Speaker 1: And again, does the visuals contradict the story do they
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  Speaker 1: support the story? And then there's the question of acting.
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  Speaker 1: Is acting good? Is the acting bad? Is the dialogue good?
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  Speaker 1: Is the dialogue bad? Is the music supportive of the
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  Speaker 1: theme or not supportive of the theme. It's really really hard,
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  Speaker 1: and I think that most people I know tend to
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  Speaker 1: be potentious when it comes to the knowledge of these
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  Speaker 1: things and tend to make big, grantiose statements about movies
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  Speaker 1: that are not founded on the level of knowledge that
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  Speaker 1: they have about movies. About just the straightforward aesthetic element,
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  Speaker 1: artistic element of a movie, and what it takes, what
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  Speaker 1: it takes to make a movie. So you know, I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to tell you whether I liked it or didn't
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  Speaker 1: like it. I'm going to make a recommendation about whether
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  Speaker 1: you go and see it or not. But Quab, is
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  Speaker 1: this a great movie or is this a horrible movie?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I can speculate, but I can't give you
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  Speaker 1: a definitive I'm not going to give you a definitive
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  Speaker 1: answer about it. And you know that doesn't mean you
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  Speaker 1: cannot make a judgment like that. It just means that
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  Speaker 1: you better be objective about the knowledge that you have
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  Speaker 1: in making that judgment. And my view is most people
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  Speaker 1: don't have that. And I know more about movies than
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  Speaker 1: most of the people I know, and I don't feel
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  Speaker 1: like I have enough knowledge to be able to make
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  Speaker 1: that kind of judgment. And I do know some people
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  Speaker 1: who know even more than I do about movies and
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  Speaker 1: probably more qualified than me to make that kind of judgment.
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  Speaker 1: You also have to really analyze it. You have to
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  Speaker 1: spend a lot of time with the movie. You'd have
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  Speaker 1: to think about it, you'd have to watch it more
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  Speaker 1: than once. I think to really give it a grade,
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  Speaker 1: not in terms of your enjoyment, but in terms of
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  Speaker 1: how great it is as compared to all other movies.
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  Speaker 1: So that's the first thing. The second thing is adaptation.
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  Speaker 1: I do not judge a movie based on how faithful
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  Speaker 1: it is to the social material. I judge it as
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  Speaker 1: a work of art standing alone. And I think you
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  Speaker 1: have to start off like that, how does this work
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  Speaker 1: of art work that you know, again is that does
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  Speaker 1: the story work as it's told in the movie, not
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  Speaker 1: as it's told for example here in camparison to Homer
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  Speaker 1: will get to that, And I think it's interesting to
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  Speaker 1: look at that, but that is not essentially essential to
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  Speaker 1: analyzing a movie. Into figuring out what the philosophical theme
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  Speaker 1: of the movie is, and even to evaluating whether that
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  Speaker 1: philosophical theme is consistent with the music, the dialogue, the
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  Speaker 1: the cinematography, the acting, all the other aesthetic elements. For
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  Speaker 1: that the movie stands on its own, and it could.
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  Speaker 1: It could be a great movie in theory and still
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  Speaker 1: completely be the opposite of the source material. It just
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  Speaker 1: needs you know, you need to you need to be
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  Speaker 1: clear on that in terms of its philosophical for example, message.
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  Speaker 1: But if that philosophical message is well concutized, is well made,
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  Speaker 1: then you know it's still a good work of art.
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  Speaker 1: And remember also Ran talks about the fact that art
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  Speaker 1: is a a you know, recreation, a selective recreation of
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  Speaker 1: an artist metaphysical value judgments, and I think I think
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  Speaker 1: that's important. We'll talk about metaphysical value judgments. What they are,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the fundamental judgments you make about the world
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  Speaker 1: and about man, the fundamental judgments you make about what
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  Speaker 1: kind of a world we live in and what kind
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  Speaker 1: of being man is and whether he is competent to
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  Speaker 1: live in this world. And any good work of art
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  Speaker 1: has a particular view on that. And I think, as
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  Speaker 1: you'll see, I definitely think Christopher Nolan has a view on,
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  Speaker 1: you know, in what kind of a world we live in,
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  Speaker 1: at least as projected in this movie. But I think
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  Speaker 1: I think if you look at Crosses movies, there's a
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  Speaker 1: certain I mean, you know, I think the one exception,
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  Speaker 1: but even there, there's elements of this. Certainly, Oppenheim in
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  Speaker 1: this movie share a lot in common in terms of
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  Speaker 1: the kind of hero they both present and the kind
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  Speaker 1: of world in which we live. So we'll consider that
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  Speaker 1: as well. Okay, so I'm not about oh, he cut
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  Speaker 1: this scene, he cut that character, he didn't include this,
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  Speaker 1: he didn't include that. Therefore it's crap. But I think
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  Speaker 1: that's nonsense. I think an adaptation is an adaptation, and
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  Speaker 1: particularly when you're shifting mediums, it's going to be different.
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  Speaker 1: And of course Homer's Odyssey has had many adaptations, particularly
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  Speaker 1: in writing from you know, all the way from Greek
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  Speaker 1: class Go Greece, all the way through Rome and uh
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  Speaker 1: and all the way to the Romantics and modern times.
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  Speaker 1: You've had different people interpreting this and presenting their own
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  Speaker 1: vision of what Odyssey is. And Christopher nolan Odyssey is
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  Speaker 1: not Homer's Odyssey. It is different. It is different philosophically,
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  Speaker 1: it's different in the in the metaphysical value judgments that
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  Speaker 1: he makes about the nature of man and about you know,
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  Speaker 1: I think even kind of the nature of reality, although
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  Speaker 1: I think Nolan is more confused about that than maybe Homer's.
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  Speaker 1: And it's it's definitely, it's very different. It's very different.
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  Speaker 1: But that is not a slam on Christopher Nolan necessarily,
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  Speaker 1: because he's making his own vision. He's making something uniquely his.
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  Speaker 1: That's what o it is. You cannot reproduce an artwork
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  Speaker 1: as an artwork and not change it, right, you're a
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  Speaker 1: pla your selective selectivity, and you're applying your metaphysical value
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  Speaker 1: judgments to the particular work. All right. So with all
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  Speaker 1: of that introduction, let's get into this. I watched we
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  Speaker 1: watched The Odyssey on an imax here in Lisbon. It's
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  Speaker 1: a laser imax and not the I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: is it, the seventy foot or seventy you know whatever,
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  Speaker 1: the really original big screen way it's supposed to be
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  Speaker 1: watched imax. There are very few screens like that in
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  Speaker 1: the entire world. If you can get to one like that,
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  Speaker 1: you should get to it. This is a This is
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  Speaker 1: a pretty spectacular movie. It's it's fun to watch. It's
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  Speaker 1: it's big, it's granduose, and probably the strongest thing about
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  Speaker 1: the movie is other visual elements. It's and and I
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  Speaker 1: think the size gives you a certain level of emotion
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  Speaker 1: in it, and an emotional connection, which actually think the
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  Speaker 1: characters don't do very much of. But but the the
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  Speaker 1: cinematography and the and and the scale and the way
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  Speaker 1: it's done, I think suck you into it. And it's
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  Speaker 1: it's spectacle and it's worth watching. It's it's uh, it's impressive.
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  Speaker 1: It's impressively done. Uh and uh so so in that sense,
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  Speaker 1: I I I definitely recommend if you, you know, going
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  Speaker 1: to see the movie. I do recommend seeing the movie,
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  Speaker 1: and I recommend seeing it on Imax if you can,
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  Speaker 1: and the beginning the screen the bed right if you
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  Speaker 1: can get the original Amex H. Nolan filmed this movie
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  Speaker 1: with a IMAX camera, so uh, you know, so it's
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  Speaker 1: a special camera. It's a very big camera, which made
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  Speaker 1: shooting this movie particularly difficult. Given all the scenes that
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  Speaker 1: are being shot. There's very little special effects in a
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  Speaker 1: sense of this very little c g I here. Even
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: when you you're dealing with monsters and things like that,
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of puppetree and things like that. But
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  Speaker 1: it's it's it's not just c g I. So uh.
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  Speaker 1: And again everything had to be filmed with these massive cameras. Uh.
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  Speaker 1: They had a design. The cameras were very noisy, so
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  Speaker 1: they had to design all kinds of audio tricks in
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  Speaker 1: order to be able to recorde the dialogue and and
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  Speaker 1: and give us a soundtrack that is manageable and that
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  Speaker 1: is uh, you know that you can hear and you
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  Speaker 1: can understand the dialogue, and and I think they do
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  Speaker 1: a good job with that. Imax is notoriously very very
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: difficult when it comes to actually hearing dialogue. And here
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  Speaker 1: I had no problem the subtitles who in Portuguese. I
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  Speaker 1: couldn't read them anyway. Uh So and and and I
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  Speaker 1: think I got almost all the dialogue in it. So
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  Speaker 1: you know, it's it's uh, it's definitely uh, it's definitely
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  Speaker 1: well done. You know, it's it's well done in I
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  Speaker 1: think the visual scape. It's also very well done in
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  Speaker 1: terms of storytelling. So Homer's tale is a complicated tale.
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  Speaker 1: There are lots of things going on, and they have
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  Speaker 1: a variety of different times, you know, periods where things
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  Speaker 1: are going on, the flashbacks, the flashbacks within flashbacks, the
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  Speaker 1: different geographic areas where things are happening. Uh. And and
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  Speaker 1: it's it's hard to tell in the poem itself. You know,
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  Speaker 1: a lot of what we know about what happens to
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  Speaker 1: to Odysseus is he tells it. He's telling the story
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  Speaker 1: to a particular people that that you know, very hospitable.
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  Speaker 1: They have an ideal society, and you know they want
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  Speaker 1: him to marry his daughter and their daughter, and he's
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  Speaker 1: telling them about his adventures. He so a lot of
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  Speaker 1: it comes through storytelling like that, but but there's a
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  Speaker 1: lot again, there's a lot of inside, you know, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of what we learn about some of what we
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  Speaker 1: learn about what happens to Troy. And the movie is
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  Speaker 1: is told by Menelaos. I think his name is Menelaus.
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  Speaker 1: I'm timped the same Anaos. But that's a city in Brazil, Madonelaos,
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  Speaker 1: and Menilos tells it to Melicus, and you know, and
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  Speaker 1: he's and there's a flashback there, but they're constant flashbacks,
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  Speaker 1: and I think, you know, Nolan is very good at this, right.
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  Speaker 1: His his movies, all of his movies, all of his
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  Speaker 1: movies are play with time and geography. Uh, from Momento,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: which is kind of a movie that's played backwards with
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  Speaker 1: somebody with amnesia, to even his his movie about oh God,
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  Speaker 1: World War two anyway, where different different storylines are happening
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  Speaker 1: at a different rate of speed and they all merge
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  Speaker 1: at the end, but they're happening at different at different
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  Speaker 1: rates of speed. So he he plays with time, he
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  Speaker 1: plays with flashbacks, and I think in this case, here
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  Speaker 1: with the Odyssey. He does a really good job. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: the story is you can you can you can you
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  Speaker 1: know the story? You follow the story really really well
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  Speaker 1: and it's completely understandable. And I think that's true even
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  Speaker 1: if somebody who doesn't really know the homeless story, I
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  Speaker 1: think can follow it and and uh and and enjoy
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  Speaker 1: enjoy the sequencing. Uh, let's see some other things. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I think most of the acting. The acting generally is
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  Speaker 1: pretty good. I mean, I'm I think Matt Damien is good.
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  Speaker 1: But we'll get to Homer's character, the or the or
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  Speaker 1: the Nolan's Odysseus. Uh. You know, I don't particularly like
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  Speaker 1: Odysseus has played by Matt Damon, but I think he
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  Speaker 1: does a good job given what Nolan is asking him
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  Speaker 1: to do. I mean, everybody's everybody's good and and all
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  Speaker 1: the all the dunkok is the movie. I yeah, the
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: World War Two movies, don cook all the you know,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: craziness and nonsense about the casting turned out to be
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: crazy and complete nonsense, as I predicted when I talked
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: about that. So Elon Musk's nonsense about they cast a
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  Speaker 1: black actress as Helen of Troy. Now I think she
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: is an extraordinarily beautiful woman. I know some people don't
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: think she's very beautiful. I think she is. But put
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  Speaker 1: that aside. It's such a small role here, and I
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  Speaker 1: think she does a really good job with it. She's convincing.
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  Speaker 1: I don't think there's any point at which you go, know,
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  Speaker 1: what's this all about? As we'll see, the war in
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Nolan's movie is not about really Helen. Right. In Homer,
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  Speaker 1: there was about Helen. Right, there was to get Helen back.
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  Speaker 1: You know, she is Manelaus's wife, and he has gotten
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  Speaker 1: all his brother and all the other kind of kings
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: who allied to him to join him in this war
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to get Helen and to punish her, you know, the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: people who took her. But here, the whole positioning of it,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: there's a line in it which position there was not
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: really about that. That's kind of an excuse. There was
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: really about trade. Right, gives it kind of a modern twist, right,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: like a Memnon is eager to go to war in
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: order to protect the trading roots. Troy is coming to
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: dominate trade. And you know the Greek city states or
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the Greek cities, they know, Greek city states really whatever
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: they are in the Bronze Age want to assert their
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: own you know, assert trade and penalized Troy for disrupting
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: their trade something like that. That is what suggested by
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the movie. So you know, I saw you know, there's
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: literally not only no problem with her, but since she's
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: a good actress, she did a good job. She plays
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: a you know what Nolan presents as the twin sister
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: who they're going to be a lot of spoilers, So
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: you know, I assume you know the story of Home anyway,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: but they are going to be They're going to be
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of spoilers, So I guess tough take that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: into account. If you haven't seen the movie, maybe you
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: want to listen to this later on. But you know,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: her sister who kills Agamemnon. You know, she has a
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: tiny what a one minute two minute screen time? It
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: goes by very quickly. I don't see any problem with that.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I you know, I don't think anybody wins the what's
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: a black woman doing there? I mean, it's it really
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: makes no difference in in this telling. And then you know,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: there's a big deal about the transactor whose name I
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: can't remember, but the trans actor. And again, if you
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: didn't tell me it was trans I wouldn't know. The
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: fact that he's you know, not muscular and manly is
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: irrelevant because he's playing somebody very young and and not
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: a warrior in the movie. Again, this is not a
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: this is not a figure that actually plays any role
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: in Homer's the Odyssey. But but here plays a role
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: and has a significance in tying it back to home
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: and to to Ithaca. And there's a there's a story
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: that kind of uh ties one of the chief Suita
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  Speaker 1: to him. And so that's kind of a Nolan story
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  Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with Homer. But it's a
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  Speaker 1: good story, you know, it's a good story about about
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: the character, and it establishes the character and gives more
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: justification for the revenge taken on that character, not just
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: because he's a he's you know, he's a suitor exploiting
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: the hospitality of Penelope and and and trying to trying
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: to get her to marry him, and at the same
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: time deceiving her and deceiving everybody else, and trying to
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: kill Telemachus, who is the son of Odysseus. But he's
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: also a creat pooh who got out of going to
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: the army, keeps saying he wanted to go and join
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: he wanted to join o Disseus on the voids of Troy.
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  Speaker 1: It turns out that he know that he got this
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: young kid to go instead of him. And so the
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: young kid is the Eliot Page is the name of
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: the actor. And Elliot Page. I mean, if you, if,
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  Speaker 1: if you, if nobody had said anything about the sexuality
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: of Elliot Page or the agenda, whatever you want to
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: call it, Earliot Page, nobody would have known. And he
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: does a fine, fine acting performance, particularly in the Afterlife
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: when he accuses Odysseus of lying to him and blames
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: him flying to him, and and and and really makes
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: a big deal out of that, and and and you know,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I think weighs on Odysseus is conscious adds to the
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: weight on Odysseus conscious that he already carries with him.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: So the fact that Elliott Page is trans really is irrelevant.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: He does a fine job for the role that he
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: was asked to do. Now, now there were rumors that
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: he was going to play Achilles. Achilles is not in
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: the movie. Achilles is in another movie called Troy, Right,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: He's not in the Odyssey. He is in the Odyssey
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: by Homer. He plays an important role, a very short role,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: but important role in Homer's Odyssey, but he doesn't play
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: role here. And yeah, I mean, Elliott Page playing Achilles
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, and Nolan's a good enough director and
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: a good enough caster of actors to know that, so
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: he cast Elliot Page in an appropriate role and it worked.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: So it's it really is. The whole thing is. The
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: whole right wing hysteria over the wokeness of this movie
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: was ridiculous and stupid. I mean, as we'll see, the
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: philosophical issues with this movie that have nothing to do
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: with woke they have to they have to do with
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: much more conventional philosophical ideas. So yeah, none of that
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: stuff was relevant. It turned out, you know, shame on
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: a lone Mosk, Shame on Matt Walsh, shame on everybody
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: who who on Twitter and elsewhere, and including some of
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: my followers, I know, reinforced that and doubled up on
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: that and kept stating that and kept it's just it's
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: just irrelevant. It's just you know, and and the movie, uh,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: you know, the problems with the movie have nothing to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: do with that. Uh. And I think the main problem
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: with the movie qual movie. The problem with the movie
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Qua movie is that it is is the dialogue. I
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: found the dialogue to be. I don't know. Maybe it
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: was it was the fact that it was modern and
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: said in this background, but I don't think it's just
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: that I just didn't find it particularly convincing and particularly interesting.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I found a lot of stuff repetitive and little not speeches,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: but like mobile finger wagging. You know, how many times
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: do you have to say in a movie Zeus's Law,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Like we get it, Like, but Zeus's Law keeps coming up,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: but over and over again. Now, maybe I already knew
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: that they were going to talk a lot about Zeus's Law,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: and maybe I was sensitized to that, but it's like
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: it keeps coming up, and it keeps being told, and
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: then the little things like you know, uh, Mad Damen
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: talking about the fall of the Bronze Age, I mean,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: really the bond I mean he's talking about the fall
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: of the Bonze Age. The Bonje's is a name given
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: to the age he's in by nineteenth century historians. He
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have thought of his own age as a Bonzie.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: It's just things like that. That's just all the fact
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: that at the end of the movie, at the very
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: end of the movie, Man Damon says something like something
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: implying that we're going to lose the ability to write. Now,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: it's true, they will lose the ability to write. But
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: it's like he doesn't know that. And it's in what
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: sense is he predicting the future? How is this essential
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to the I mean, there's a sense in which it
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: fits into the movie, not the writing, but the collapse
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: of the civilization. He keeps talking about the collapse of civilization.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Does he really know the people while civilization collapsing or
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: about the collapse, really know it's collapsing, and do they
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: know the consequences losing writing? It just seemed that seemed
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: like plastered onto it in order to make a point.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: I'm making a point to you people out there, civilizations
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: can be lost when Zeus's Law or as you know
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: as because the Nolan interprets it as one of the
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: actors again he spells it out, you know, one of
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the characters actually spells it out as what Zeus's Law
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: means is the golden rule? Right, they and they mentioned
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the Golden rule. There's no golden rule in Greece. But
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's it's a little hitting you
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: over the head with this a little bit too much.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And you know, if this is broken, this is going
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: to lead to the decline of civilization. And and and
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Troy is the end of civilizes, is the beginning of
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the end. It leads to and the and the the
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: destruction is from within. Now, there's a lot of interesting
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: history that is associated with the actual Dark Age. It
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: happens with the destruction of civilization. Actually literally does happen
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: sometime after the fall of Troy. Historians believe that the
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Battle for Troy was real. I mean, the characters weren't real,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: but that and they were more than probably more than
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: one war was regarding Troy and and and you know
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: that civilization, the Greek civilization, or the civilization that existed
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: in the Greek islands, but really in the entire Eastern Mediterranean,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: including Egypt and and and and what is today Israel
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: that you know, in Lebanon, that entire area of the
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Eastern Mediterranean, which was thriving relatively speaking, of course during
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: the Bronze Age, literally descends into real Dark Ages. And
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: one of the expressions of that is that the Greeks
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: have a kind of a writing, have written text in
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the Bronze Age, and then lose it completely and then
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: have to rediscover writing in the in the area leading
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: up to the Classical period, and then and the writing
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: that they rediscover is actually based not on the original,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: not on the Greek writing from the Bronze Age, but
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: the writing they introduce is actually based on Phoenician writing
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: from the Uh, you know, from the Phoenicians who live
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: And where is today Lebanon? Or is so so? Yes?
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: So it is? It is? Uh, it's interesting. The history
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: is interesting. And to the extent that Nolan is opening
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: up here a discussion about the history, I guess it's interesting,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: but it's not relevant to the plot. It's not really
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: relevant except in one sense, and I'll get to it,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: and he doesn't have to keep repeating it so often.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the dialogue I just found
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: forced and and not really h you know, natural is
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: the whole sc trying to get him SSS in the
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: movie has been giving him the lotus flower for him
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: to lose his memory as in a sense kind of
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: a healing process. He's Calypso not so she sorry, Calypso
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: So she is the other one. Calypso is giving him
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the lotus flower and as a healing process. He's suffering
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: in a sense from PTSD, from post traumatic stress syndrome.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: He's he feels guilty. We'll get to that about what
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: happened to Troy. And he's he's struggling and does he
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: deserve to go home? And he's struggling with all this,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: and he and and she feeds him the Lord's Flower,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: and then he embraces eating the Lord's Flower pretty pretty
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: passionately as kind of a healing process. And then at
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: some point she stops. It's not clear why exactly she stops.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: He might start be starting to remember things and or
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: maybe Athena has asked us to stop, and at that
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: point she kind of starts teasing the memories out of him. Again,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't find it particularly convincing. His whole relationship with
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Calypso is ambiguous, right, I mean, in the you know,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: is she's in love with him? You know there was
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: a Again, you compare it to Homer, I guess So's
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: it's hard to not continuously compassing so Homa but in Homer,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: you know, part of it is they're having a sexual
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: relationship and it's quite passionate, and he feels guilty about it.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: And he hasn't lost in memory in Homer, but she's
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: a goddess and she's put a spell on him and
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: he can't leave, and and you know here, once he
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: gets his memories back, he leaves. And one of the
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: powerful things about Homer is that he has her offer
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: him this deal where he could stay with her in
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: this blissful existence and live forever, or remain immortal and
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: head home, and he chooses to go home, which is
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: incredibly powerful given the theme. I think that Homer is
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: emphasizing the re term home. You're claiming your place, but
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: it is unnecessary, not as necessary for Nolan's theme. Nolan's
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: theme is really and he will get to the more
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: philosophical stuff. So so before we get to that, let
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: me just say, yeah, Beautifuy made exciting fun, I would
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: definitely go see it. And overall, I think that the
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: movie represents its theme well. I don't like the theme,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: which is a problem, and as a consequence, I don't
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: really like Matt Damon and I don't particularly like Odysseus.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: He's too brooding, he's too dark, he's not in particularly
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: interesting character. He is you know, this said the relationship
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: with the gods, which is which is interesting how Nolan
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: treats it but doesn't treat it so it stays ambiguous.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about the gods first and then we'll
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: talk about the theme, although again they related. But so
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Nolan doesn't show the gods except for Tina. But it's
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: not even clear if she really is a goddess or
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: you know, only Odysseus can see her. Is she a goddess?
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Is she just a figment of his imagination and his conscience.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Is she a murdered trojan woman who is embedded in
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Odyseus's memory. Somehow, it's ambiguous what she is, and I
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: don't think it's that important what she is. But the
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: point is that the gods don't explicitly play a role,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: that is, they don't show up, whereas in Homer's a Disease,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: they're all over the place, and they play an active
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: role in the things that are going on, in the
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: things that are happening. So there's a sense in which
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: that's great, It's it's a it's a secular interpretation. But
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and yeah, but in spite of that, the gods are there, right,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: So it's Poseidon Odysseus, and I think his man believed
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: that Poseidon is punishing him for the way he treated
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the one eyed monster. I can't hold names, so I I, uh,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you know, I apologize for that. So I'm not going
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: to remember everybody's name, and I'm not going to remember
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: the names of the particular creatures. And you know that
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: his men are doomed to all die, not because of
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: what they did in Troy, but because they ate the
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: sacred cows of the god Apollo. So the gods are there,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you know, and and and you know they Yeah, Odysseus
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: is told that if he takes a particular he wrote,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: six of his men will die. If he takes another
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: out there all die. And six of men do die.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, so the gods are predicting things that actually happen.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: All those men do die as the gods predict. And
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: one of the scenes, which I thought was, I mean,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: this was I think, to me, again, philosophically, the most
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe the most disappointing scene. So after he's leaving,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: after he's leaving Calypso Calypsos Island. She's lets him go, right,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: and he's on a raft, And basically the idea is
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: he just has to trust the gods. He needs to
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: let go. He needs to just hold on to the
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: raft and let the gods take it, take him home.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's in Homer as well.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: But again Homer, the gods have played a whole role
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: in it. There's a battle between the gods about Odysseus Zeus.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Odysseus is athenus favorite and and and Zeus likes him,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and Zeus won't let Poseidon actually kill uh kill Odysseus.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: So then when he's kind of left the drift to
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: to to to go to the island, is Zeus is
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: guiding him. Zus kind to force Poseidon to let him
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: to guide him to it to get it. So it
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: don't make sense. Kind of the gods have been there,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: they played it role. Yeah, the gods are there and
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: they're not there. And and you know, there's a when
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: he when he got on the raft, and I think
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: there's a line saying he just needs to let go
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: and let drift to know, you know what a line
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: from a song came into my mind. It's God, how
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: do you go? Jesus take the wheel? Jesus take the wheel.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: There's a song where she's driving. She's skidding, she's skidding
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: off the roll, and it's like, Jesus, take the wheel.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I trust you, you know I I can't control this.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: So this is? This is? That was a disappointing little
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: moment there. You know, Nolan doesn't know all of their
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: lives kind of predetermined? Is at all? Kind of the
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: gods playing with you? Or not? What is? What isn't?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Are the gods involved in the story? Are they not?
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I think it's a one esthetic weakness in the story
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: because the gods are there moving the story along, but
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: they're not really there and you don't know what their
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: motivation is and you don't know why, and you don't
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: know why they even want to save Odysseus and why
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: he's being saved. What is this really about? Again? In
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Homer's story, we have the backdrop. We know what's going on.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: We know what's going on in a sense a Mount Olympus.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: We know the gods are thinking, so we know why
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: this is a safe here. We don't know why he's
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: saved it's it's somewhat arbitrary, and that esthetically kind of
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: doesn't fit in with everything else. It's not there, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: it's certainly not the hero driving the action. And you know,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: here is here is the the challenge hire you know,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Nolan's Odysseus is a man bereft of guilt. He feels
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: guilty for having won the Trojan war by building the horse,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: coming up with the idea of building the horse, tricking
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: the Trojans into taking the horse in, and then letting
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: his learning the men in, and the slaughter and destruction
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: and rape and pillage that happens as a consequence, and
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: he feels guilty. He has caused this, and he connects
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: it to Zeus's law. He has violated Zeus's law. He
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: is I mean, there's a it's not really clear why
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: this is Zeus's law, because the Trojans of not invite
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: him in as a guest. He has not come to
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Troy as a guest. He has come as a warrior
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: for war. So I'm not sure why Zeus's law applies here.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's the broader Zeus's law. By the way, Zeus's
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: law is the idea that you want to treat a
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: stranger well. Why right not? Because your life is not
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: valuable and the stranger's life is valuable. So there's no altruism.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: You want to treat a stranger well because the stranger
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: might turn out to be a god. And therefore you
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: don't want to treat a god badly because that I'll
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: come back to bite you. Right, So you want to
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: treat a stranger world just in case he's a god
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: in disguise. And if you think about Greek mythology, you
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: think about all this theory, the stories of mythology. There's
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of gods taking on lots of different disguises
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: in Greek mythology. So this is how this is how
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: they rationalize this idea of treating strange as well. Now,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: of course it makes complete sense, particularly in a trading
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: society where you're traveling and you're trading, and trust is
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: important and hospitality is important, and knowing that you can
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: survive the trip and you can survive interacting with strangers,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: you know, is essential for the trading that something like
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: this arises. But I think Zeus's law in Nolan's hands
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: becomes kind of a golden rule. Treat others as you
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: would have them treat you. And clearly the Trojan horse
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: violates that right because there's rape and pillage and slaughter
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and destruction, and that's not treating other people the way
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: you would want to be treated. So there is now
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: a real guilt associated with you know, with Odysseus. He
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: made that happen. He is responsible for the destruction that ensued,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: and he is taking on that moral responsibility and he's,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: in a sense his traveled home. He is. He is
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: burdened by the guilt. He's burdened by the idea that
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: he maybe doesn't deserve to go home, maybe doesn't deserve
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: to be king, and that's reinforced in the ending where
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: he's not king. He has his son become king, which
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: is not the way again Homer ends it. So for Nolan,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Odysseus has this kind of original sin. He is. He
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: is flawed. He is pretty miserable throughout. And he's not
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: just miserable because he's seeking home. He's miserable because he
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: knows all the bad stuff that he's done and he's
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: blaming himself. You know, there's a lot there's talk in
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: the movie. Again, none of it is in Homer about
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: the people of the sea causing destruction everywhere, and it
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: could be that the people of the sea are homeless
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: people who are at the beginning, it's told eluding villages
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and taking stuff again in violation of Zuzus his law
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: and reinforcement kind of of his guilt, building up his guilt,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: and then as his man of dying, he feels guilty
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: for that. So he's very brooding and very guilt ridden
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: and seeking redemption more than anything else. He's seeking redemption.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: And it's only kind of when he fully recognizes that
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: and he recognizes what happened to Troy. And this is
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: a scene where he's speaking to Penelope towards the end
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: of the movie, but she doesn't know it's him, but
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Athena is there and he's telling the story of what
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: happened to Troy, and Athena starts crying. And it's only
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: then that it's almost like Athena says, Okay, now I'm
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: going to help you. Now I'm gonna you know. Now
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: I'm completely on your side because now you have fully
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: realized the extent of the evil you brought onto the world.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: And it's barterer than that. There's a sense in which
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Odysseus takes on himself the idea that he, by leading
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: to the fall of Troy, he has brought about the
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: end of civilization. He is responsible for the end of
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: the world as he knows it. And you know, he
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: sails into the West. He's not going to come back
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: to Ithaca at the end with with Penelope. He sails
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: away with Penelope, leaving to Telemachus as king again, not
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: in Homer. In Homer, Odysseus comes back and becomes king.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: He re establishes his domain here he sells away again.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: It's an active redemption. He's giving something up, He's giving
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: something of value up. He's going to do something to
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: commemorate his fallen the fallen troops. You know, he's gonna
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: he's gonna make sacrifices, I guess for them. But it's
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: more than that. I think he's really trying. He's going
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: to the West to find redemption for everything that he's done,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: not just for his own troops, but also follow the
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: people at Troy that have died, and maybe really for
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: the bringing about the fall of civilization, the unleashing a
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: barbarism on the world. At least that's kind of the
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: weight that seems to be on his shoulders as as
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: he travels away. So this is this is kind of
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: a nol and Christopher Nolan hero, because step a Nolan
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: hero is a flawed hero, a hero that brings about
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: or has the potential to bring about the world destruction
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: and feel guilty about it. Think of Oppenheima, which is
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: very similar. Interstella is maybe the only movie that doesn't
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: have a hero that carries guilt around. I think the
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: hero and Interstellar is pretty guilt free. And and it's
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: it's Estella, I think is his best movie from that respect,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: suddenly the most benevolent of his movies and the most
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: the movie the I think they're also the movie that
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: you can connect with emotional the most. If you think
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: about Oppenheimer, he keeps you at a distance constantly emotionally,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: He's running three different stories at you. It doesn't really
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: have a theme. What are you supposed to think that
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: building an atomic bomb was not a good idea? It was
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: a good idea. The fact that Oppenheim was a communist
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: was a was was was really really horrific or it
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: wasn't really horrific. It's completely ambiguous. And and again with
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: with here, he's clearer that he thinks that Homer, he
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: thinks that Odysseus is guilty of what happened to Troy,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: and that his redemption is not enough at the end
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: of the day, because he is pretending he is, you know,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: saying civilization is not going to end, and Odysseus is
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: taking that responsibility himself. So it's a it's a it's
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: a fraud hero of a hero that is constantly looking
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: at redemption. I couldn't connect emotionally with him. This is
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: part of my problem with Odysseus. I couldn't connect with him.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like I was kind of was rooting for him,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: but you know, I knew that I knew the ending,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: So it's hard when you know the ending. But it's
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: maybe if I saw at a second time, maybe I'd
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: root for him more, maybe I'd connect with him more.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: But it's emotionally cold. The movie is emotionally cold. I
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: don't think you really get really that connected to the
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, telemach Has probably is the most sympathetic character
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: in the movie. Penelope is a little removed emotionally, and
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I think, certainly, I think Odysseus Odysseus is Odysseus is
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: also I mean, it's hard not to compete a home.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: But Odysseus is presented as he was really smart in
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: what he did with Troy. He was really smart to
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: come up with a trick to fool the Trojans into
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: letting them in the in the But beyond that, his
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: intelligence is not really highlighted by Nolan. There's nothing of
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: his intelligence really in the movie. He's he's trying to
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: get his men to do what he wants him to do,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: and they they under they they undermine him, and they
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: they rebel against him. Uh and and uh. But more broadly,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: there's just there's nothing that he uh that expresses his
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: intelligence that this movie presents a hero who used his
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: intelligence to feed an enemy and now is on this
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: you know, adventure, And the adventure is exciting, but it's
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: mainly physical. It's many physical tribulations. He's struggling psychologically, so
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: it's a psychological drama to come to terms with what
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: he did and and and to feel like he deserves
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: to go home and and to regain his memory. But
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: there's no sense of that intelligence. Again, contrast is with Homer.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Homer's whole point is that Odysseus is an extremely intelligent
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: man that he uses reason or in ancient Greek kind
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: of trickery. Right, let me see if I can find
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I have the word. I had
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: the word down here at some point. But he has this,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: you know, this ability to to come up with tricks,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: to come up with innovations. Oh, here it is polymetus.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I'm probably I know you Greeks are freaking out now
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: because I mispronounced that, But it's pr l y m
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: e t I s with a little scribbling thing about
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the e. And what that translates into is great cunning
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: or poly foreign something like that, which means having many
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: kinds of intelligence polymkoanos, able to contrive many solutions, poly
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: delomtis of many multifaceted wiles. In other words, he's a
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: smart guy who uses reason to solve problems. Call it cunning,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: call it, you know, contriving, But that's what it is.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: It's using reason to solve problems. And throughout Odyssey by Homer,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: we see that, we see that there's no guilt in Homer.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Homer's Odysseus never thinks back about Troy and thinks that
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: he made some kind of mistake. He's proud of what
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: he did in Troy. His weakness, his weakness, as I
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: think often in Greek tragedies, this isn't a Greek tragedy
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: quite not at all, but often in greed is this pride.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: It's the fact that you know, after he gets away
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: from the cyclop which is not in Nolan's version. Again
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: because Nolan's version doesn't emphasize So when when when Odysseus
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: meets it deals with the cyclop he uses his intelligence
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: to overcome the Cyclope. He gets him drunk, He gives
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: them a false name. He says his name is nobody.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: The fact that it's nobody who in the Cyclopes calls
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: for help to the Cyclops, which don't exist in the movie.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: They ask him who is attacking you and he says nobody.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: So they don't come because nobody's atacking him, so you know,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: so that's clever. But then as he's sailing away, he
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: goes back and says, Odysseus did this to you. And
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: then the Cyclops have a name, and he praised his
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: father to Poseidon is the Cyclopsis father. He plays the
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Poseidon the father and says you know, Odysseus did this.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Get it? This is blinded me get it? This is
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: all of that is is out is caught here he
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: he he shoots an extra arrow into the cyclopes towards
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: the end out of spite or out of a sense
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: of revenge for the the soldiers or his his uh,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: his soldiers that the cyclope has eaten. Right, So so
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: there's there's that prightfulness that he has. He Al says,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: is much more tempted in in Homer. He's much more
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: of a he's he's much more easily tempted. So the
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: woman it turns them into pigs his name, her name
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: is the one I did before anyway, you know, the
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: one that turns them into pigs. He he he has
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: you know, he stays with her for a year and
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: uh and has an affair with her. So and he
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: spends a year with her, so he he freeses man
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: and again the gods have a big role there in
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: the actual story. So he is much more you know,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: tempted in Homer's story. Uh. He is kind of a
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Bronze age type of heroic man that slaughters and a
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: fighter but is smart, but is also attempted by uh,
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: you know, by women, and and is is seduced by her.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: So that is all missing from because again he is
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: so all consumed with guilt and uh and and is
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: brooding all the time that none of that would make
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: sense for him to be engaged in. Plus, the whole
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: theme becomes going for Christian and Christopher Nolan's telling right says,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: a Christian element here of of sin and guilt and redemption. Sin,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: guilt and redemption doesn't exist in Homer. If you if
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: you've sinned, and if feel guilty and you're about to
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: be redeemed, you're not you know that doesn't you know?
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Having affairs on the way home doesn't play well into
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: a Christian hero who's trying to redeem himself. So c
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: is the name is the name of the woman that
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: turns his man into pigs. And so there's uh, there's
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: definitely the theme here is much more about redemption. The
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: theme here is much more a Christian theme, an anti
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: violence theme, a love that neighbor like yourself or or
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: or what do you call it, do onto others as
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: you do on if you would have them do onto
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: you theme than a then the kind of Homer uh,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: you know heroic heroism of a bronze age. You remember,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: it's a bronze age. But what's what's interesting about Homer's
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: hero and what makes Odysseus such a classic and why
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: it's considered, you know, one of the founding texts of
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Western civilization and why it's so central to Greece and
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: understanding of Greece. And I think how Greece evolves is
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: the centrality of the mind in the Odyssey, and that
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: is gone from Nolan. That is gone. So you know, uh,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: you know, the the Nolan's theme is powerful, and I
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: think he integrates it well throughout. Uh. And but it's
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: not a it's it's it's not a it's not a
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Greek theme. It's it's very much a Christian theme. And
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I think he does a good job. So
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: in that sense, if I wanted to make a statement
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: about the movie, I think that the theme is integrated
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: well with the action and the acting and everything else
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: that's going on. I think one of the flaws is
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: the kind of the place of the gods and and
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: and what the relationship man to the gods is, and
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: that is that is that is very very difference. Right,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: So this is this is much more. You know, it's
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: not exactly Oppenheimer, but but in terms of characterization, there's
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of Oppenheimer in Odysseus in the Bronze Age,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: and again he's leading to the death of civilization, which
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: arguably Oppenheimer potentially is doing right or believes that he
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: might be doing so. The Nolan's intertteration is a major
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: departure from Homer. You know, in in Homer, Odysseus is
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: defining characteristics, is not his strength but his mind. Homer
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: describes him repeatedly as the man of many forms of intelligence.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: We talked about some of the forms before. He survives
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: by observing, by calculating, by disguising himself, by controlling his reactions,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: and adapting to the circumstances. And it's a it's a
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: it's a dramatization by by Homer of in a very early,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: very primitive form, in a in a very violent environment
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: of reasons, efficaciousness and its role in human surviving. Yeah,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: and his now Homos has God's playing around and the
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: fate of man is ultimately ultimately determined by the Gods.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: So add that. So it's not like Homer wrote this, Uh,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: uh you know, perfect uh uh hero that romantic hero.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: This is not romantic. This is romantic about the the odyssey.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: The gods are playing with men and they're in the
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: background and they're dictating much of the action. Right, but hey,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: at least there's a man of reason and a hero. Again.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Nolan turns the hero into into a kind of a
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a secondarized Christian redemption story. I mean,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: and this is why, For example, Ben Shapiro, he originally
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: condemned a movie for all the woke reasons that are
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: stupid that he did, but then when he saw it,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: he said, oh no, wait a minute, all you people
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: on the way, you should all go see this movie
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: because it's a Christian movie. So basically we saw it.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: It's about redemption guilt, but it's just about the importance
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: of family and return to family. It's about giving up stuff, right,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: giving up the kingdom, giving up your palace, and sailing
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: to no whay. I mean, think about the story. Right,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: You've just gone island hopping in the Mediterranean, and every
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: island you've encountered a monster. People are poisoning you, turn
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: you men into pigs. I mean, horrible stuff, right, on
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: every single I learn that you've been too some thing
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: just horrific has happened to you, and now you're taking
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: your wife and you're sailing west into the unknown. I mean,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: it's there's a little bit of the ridiculous in it.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, where's he going? Is he going to one
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: of those you know, is it going to see so
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Se again or Calypso again, or one of the monsters again,
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: or some new It just doesn't make sense. I mean,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: maybe he's going somewhere where he knows where he's going.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: But the idea is we're going towards the sun and
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: we don't know where we're going. The whole thing is
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: an adventure, right again as part of this redemption. So,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to overemphasize this Christian thing.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like there's original sin here. It's
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: not that he was one sinful. It's that he commits
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: a sin any and he has he has particular guilt
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: concerning a particular action. It's not there's no inherited inherent
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: human condition, you know, human depravity necessarily, there's none of that.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Although his men, you know, die because they they act
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: short term and they act based on kind of whomen
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: They act based on kind of material urges, but there's
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: no there's no general statement about the nature of man.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: So I don't want to overstate kind of the I
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: think the Christian side of this. But Odysseus definitely has sin, guilt, suffering, atonement,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: and renunciation. He atones through renunciation, renouncing his claim to
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: the throne, so he can't just win outright. There's also
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: a toning down a violence at the end as part
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: of this. Right. So in Homer, when Odysseus comes back,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: he kills all the suitors, and he kills some of
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: the maids who had cooperated with the suitors. They hang
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: I think nine maids they hang here. He doesn't kill
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: all the suitors, and he doesn't kill any of the
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: maids in the story. So again it's a it's a
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: it's a toned down, more modern appropriate for somebody who's
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: feeling guilty for kind of the destruction of a city,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: somebody feeling guilty for the death of a lot of people.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: So in that sense, it's appropriate that he doesn't kill everybody.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: Would be weird that he would kill everybody, even though
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: from the perspective of justice as certainly as viewed from
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Zeus's law, from the perspective of Zeus's law, and from
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the perspective of the bondze Age, he's completely justified and
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: killing everybody everybody there. So you know, remember he is
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: when he when he walks away, he's renounced. He's walking
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: away from everything that you know makes it this his life,
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: his life, right, he's walking away. He's not walking of Penelope,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: but he's walking with Telemachus, his son, his home, his island,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: his lands, his people, his kingdom, his memories. You know,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: he is starting over in a sense, and that's what
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: it takes to chief redemption. Now, uh Homa's honestly, this
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: is you know, there's a bunch of other examples of
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: things that are not included, that are kind of that
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: are kind of interesting and worth mentioning in the underworld.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: When Diseus goes to underworld in Homer, he meets his mother,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: who has died in Idika while he was away, which
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: kind of is there to conquatize the loss of being away,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: of not being home, of of not being with your
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: mother before she died, and he in the in the story.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: In the poem, he tries to hug her, but she's
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: of course a ghost, so he just he can't grab him,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: he can't get hold of her. And that gives it
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: gives it a certain a strong emotional power. And it's
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: exactly that kind of emotional power that's missing in the movie.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: It's that emotional connection, that that grieving, that sense of
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: you know, that sense of loss is not I didn't
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: find it there. And then he meets in another interesting
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: statement from Homer, I guess he meets Achilles, and Achilles,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: of course has died a heroic death, a legendary death.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: He'll be you know, sung about forever. Right, we still
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: sing about about Achilles, we still read dailiad and and
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: Achilles tells him that he would rather be you know,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: a slave in somebody's house and alive in the world,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: then to and noble death and be sung about forever
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: and be king of the underworld, King of the underworld. Uh.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: And again that's a powerful statement about you know, maybe
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: this is the Homer saying something about that bonde age.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Homer is Homer is reciting this. Homan never wrote it down.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Homa is telling this story through a cetacean, is aciting this.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Hundreds of years after the events. So again, maybe that's
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: a criticism of the kind of life that these people
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: in the Bonze Age lived, where noble death was so important,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: and maybe a foreshadowing of a classic Greece that values life,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: values a well lived life, you know, and and in
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: the kind of world of that that is rising is
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: beginning to rise in homes in Homer's period. So uh,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, the history here is is again it is interesting.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, the Dark Ages, the Greek Dark Ages, are
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: really interesting. The fact that they lasted for hundreds of years.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: Nobody knows, really, nobody knows what happened, what caused it.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: A lot of the older ideas about speculation about the
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: volcano in Santorini imploding and causing weather changes that caused
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: that whole region to suddenly collapse, civilization to collapse, probably
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: all probably wrong. It's not clear if there was some
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: the sea people, some foreign invader who came in and
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: destroyed these civilizations. The most likely story is that they
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: collapse on within, that they rotted from within, that people
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: rebelled against their own civilizations. And that's kind of what
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Noeln is hinting at. It's the abandonment of Zeus's law,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: which is causing all of this everything to collapse and
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: the world to go into Barbourism. So I mean Nolan's
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: trying to show us what happens when norms collapse. Right. Uh,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: you know, the Ellipses in his story is not just
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: a monster because of size and appetite, but it's in
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: existence without law. He's got guests and he eats them.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Instead of being hospitable towards them, he doesn't welcome them,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: he devours them. Uh. The suitors violate hospitality from the
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: other direction. They enters odysseus House's guests and they're let
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: in by tell Malicus and Penelope because they guessed. But
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: then they exploit that. They consume his wealth, they intimidate
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: his wife, they coo upt his household, they plot them
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: out of his son. They use the conventions of civilization
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: to destroy the substance of that civilization. So the theme
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: of you know, the banning Zeus's law is leads to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: anarchy and collapse. I mean, looks if you interpret Zeus,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: if you somehow can rope Troy into it, And again
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: I think you can only rope the collapse of Troy
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: into it by expanding Zeus's law to mean, treat others
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: as you would have them treat you right. So anyway,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: so uh, that is my evaluation. It's it's it's a
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: it's a really good movie of a flawed hero. Nolan,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: by the way, interviewed in interviews. There's an interview, especially
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: this interview I recommend, interviewed by Chinese PhD student. I'm
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: not sure exactly what she was getting at Peach. Maybe
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: in classics, but I'm not sure. I was interviewed by her,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: and she asked the best questions I've heard of any
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: interviewer interviewing Nolan, and she pushed him on the idea
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: of heroes, and he basically admitted that heroes have to
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: be flawed, they have to be undermined, and they have
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: to be flawed and undermined for the audience to accept them.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: That he's not even saying I believe in flawed heroes.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: I want to project. He's saying if I projected an
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: ideal here, the audience wouldn't accept it. So I project
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: flawed heroes because that's what the audience can relate to,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: can accept, which is a telling about him. It's as
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: a telling about the culture and the kind of culture
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: we live in where that might be true. And so
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: Odysseus is a flawed hero. He has been christianized, if
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: you will, modernized in a kind of in that sense,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: he's with guilt and riddled with with a bad conscious,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: and in seeking redemption and willing to give up everything
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: in order to achieve that redemption. I'm I think that
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: Nolan shouldn't have written the script to this. I think
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: he could, he could have had somebody write a better
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: script even given this theme. I just think I just
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: think some of it didn't work, it didn't connect. But
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you know, I still
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: recommend going to see it. It's just it's it's it's
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: an adult movie. I mean, young kids will enjoy the
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: monsters and stuff like that. It's not that violent. It's
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: a little scary. It's scary, but it's not that violent.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's no goal, right if you think about
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: modern movies and chopped limbs and blood splurging all over
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: the place, and you know, modern modern violent movies. It
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: has none of that, but it is it is scary.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: It's not glory, but scary, but you know it Certainly
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: teenagers will enjoy this. But it's a it's a it's
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: a movie about adult for adults, and it's a movie
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: about ideas, and it's a movie about character, and you
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: might not be able to identify with a character because
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: of the way Nolan is presenting him. But this is
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: a real thing, a real a real film, a real movie,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: and he's you know, Christophe Nolan is a real filmmaker,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: and he's it's it's worthwhile going to see Christopher nolan movies,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: even if you don't like the the the the theme,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: even if sometimes his movies are really confusing. This is
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: not confusing. This is pretty straightforward. It's incredibly ambitious. It's
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: the chronologically innovative. It took clearly years to plan coordinations,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: thousands of people. The sets must have been, you know, amazing,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: given that he was shooting this with very little CGI.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: And Nolan is a calculating, resourceful, uncompromising creator. He makes
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: he makes interesting, good movies and you know, he he
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: it's an achievement. The movie is an achievement. So again
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: it's worth saying. You can be I mean, if you're
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: like me, you're gonna be frustrated because you want to
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: see a hero and imagine Nolan's skill and talents deployed
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: projecting a real hero, a Harmeric hero. And I think
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: this undermines Homer's hero. It gives us a flawed hero,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: a modern hero, flawed in a modern sense. So it's
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: disappointing in that sense. It's frustrating in that sense. But
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: you got to give the credit to the movie maker.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: He makes He made a pretty he made a good
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: movie and again enjoyable and entertaining. Nolan's odyssey is not
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Homer and it's on Homer's odyssey. He's using Homer's platform
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: to tell his own story. And that is fine, and
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: that is fine. You know Homer's Homer's story is a
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: story of achievement, justice again, justice as you would see
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: it in the Bronze Age, and restoration, a return home
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: and restored position. You know. Nolan's story is a story
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: of guilt, purification, renunciation. And he did a good job
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: presenting that. He did a god good job presenting that.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: I mean again, I think the position of the gods
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: should have could have been clarified. I think the dialogue
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: could have been better. I think something to make us
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: care more about Odysseus would have helped. But yeah, go
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: watch it on a big screen. Bigger the better and
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: have fun. All right, that is my review. Don't forget
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: super check questions to ask a super chet questions, you know,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: and you can also do stickers to support the show.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Just you know, today's show is like every other show.
• 1:10:12
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• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: in every hour that I'm on, So please consider helping
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: me reach the targets. We're a little short right now.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe you can help get us there faster. Let's see
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: what else I want to tell you. Yes, just a
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: few go through some of our sponsors, and then I'll
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: go to your questions and I'll put a priority for
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: those questions relating to Odysseus, and then we will go
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: from there. I know an institute has a conference in Austin,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Texas September eleventh or thirteenth, so it's coming up really quickly. Here.
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• 1:10:58
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  Speaker 1: a lot of questions. It's Austin, Texas. It's going to
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• 1:11:18
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• 1:11:35
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• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: ideas to people out there about contentiousness issues like climate
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: change and environmentalism and things like that. Alex Epstein dot
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: substack dot com and Defenders of Capitalism Defenders of Capitalism
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: dot com. Defensive of Capitalism is a program that is
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: part of It's not exclusively part of, but it's part
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: of the leadership program of the Rockies and uh, this
• 1:12:25
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• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: people to be better defenders of capitalism and better defenders
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• 1:12:40
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• 1:12:43
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• 1:13:00
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• 1:14:03
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  Speaker 1: for you to take the time and participate participate in this.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: All right, let's see what else. Yep, let's reind you, oh, Patreon,
• 1:14:31
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• 1:14:33
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• 1:14:35
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• 1:14:40
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• 1:14:45
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• 1:14:48
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• 1:14:55
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• 1:14:57
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• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Let's turn now to our oh super chat questions we
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: have We have a few, not many, so there's there's
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: plenty of time for you to come in with a
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: super check question. We made our first our goals, so
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: thank you guys. That that's great. We're now working towards
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: our second hour goal. So keep it coming. Uh. Let
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: me see, Andrew has questions, but they're not related to
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: the Odyssey, and uh all right, let's so let's uh,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: let's take John's question. I like the Odyssey. It's better
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: made and acted. But Ray Harry Housen's Jason and the
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: Argonauts or Clash of the Titans has heroes and shows
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: the Greek gods actively involved in moving the humans down
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: below like their chest pawns. Yeah, I mean those are
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: god I saw those movies years ago and they're not
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: very well made. The Odyssey's, you know, a really well
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: crafted movie. So you have to give that to Christopher Nolan.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: He knows how to make movies. So The Odyssey is
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: a really well crafted movie. The Argonauts and Clash of
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: the Titans I thought were not very well made. But
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: you're right in the sense that they the heroes. The
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: heroes are heroes, although the one dimensional heroes the you know,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: they're brave and they're physically able. The thing about the
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: story of Odysseus is that he is a man of intelligence,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: and his heroism is reflected in his intelligence, and that's
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: the missed opportunity. That's what Nolan doesn't do. He doesn't
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: portray a man of intelligence as a hero, and you know,
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: I think that's too bad. All right, let's see Mary
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: Ellen says, what do you think of Tennyson's poem or
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: Tennis is form Ulysses. It's different from both The Odyssey
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: and Nolan's movie. It's one of my favorite poems, so
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I've read Ulysses, I've read some Tennyson,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: and I generally I think Tennyson is amazing. I find
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: poetry really, really difficult. I love to hear poetry performed.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: I love it when somebody else is reading poetry. I
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: find it very difficult to read it to myself. So
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: but I remember it as being inspiring, but I don't
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: remember the details enough, so unfortunately I can't really reflect.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: But yes, you'll find that almost all the different Odissees
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: or Ulysses in history are all different. And Tennyson's, of course,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: brings kind of a romanticism to it. You know, Tennis
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: is an romantic poet, and he brings kind of a
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: nineteenth century romantic element to it. And my guess is
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: it's probably really, really good. I just don't remember it
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: well enough to really comment on her Tennyson writes beautifully
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: sayre's always that all right, John says, My fifteen year
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: old grandson studied The Odyssey this past year and was
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: waiting for months to see the movie. He loved it
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: and said things were left out and or made up,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: but he didn't care. He particularly liked the blind guy.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: You may ask, yeah, I mean again, there's much the like.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: But and the thing that's most changed is the theme.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: But yeah, a lot of the stories are left out,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: and that's fine, you expect them to be left out.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: The sad things is that he the Nolan chooses and
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: I think is because it fits his theme to de
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: emphasize the intelligence, to de emphasize the intelligence, because it's
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: the intelligence who remember, they got Odysseus into trouble according
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: to Nolan by by, you know, coming up with the
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: idea of the host. So it's not that he's that
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: he's left scenes out and he's put scenes in. It's
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: what he's chosen, the particular elements he's chosen to leave out,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: and that he's dramatically changed the theme. And that is
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: worth pointing out to your fifteen year old and have
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: fifteen year old's that's a great it's a it's a
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: it's a great lesson for them, you know, try to
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: dig in with your with your grandson what he thinks
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: the theme the message of Homer's Odyssey is, and what
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: he thinks the theme and the message of Nolan's movie.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Try to get him to go deeper than just the
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: action and the funny element of it and the characters
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: that are kind of interesting and fun, but to go
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: to actually, what what is the what is the what
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: is the message? What is Christopher Nolan telling you? What
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: is Homer telling you? How are they different? Without judging,
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: just just so get beyond they cut scenes out and
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: they added scenes, They cut characters out, and they added characters.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: Get beyond that and go to the y in a
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: sense which goes deeper into what is what is Nolan's
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: setting up versus what it Homer set up? And I
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: think that'll help your son, your grandson also start looking
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: at movies differently. Movies have themes, there's ideas behind them,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: There's that, you know, the judgments being made. I mean
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: I didn't talk about metaphysical value judgements. What are the
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: metaphysical value judgements being made? I mean, there's something really
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: about about intelligence leading to guilts, which which undermines kind
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: of humanificaciousness. If we live by our reason, but if
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: our reason leads us somehow to do things that we
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: that are horrific and to lead to horrific consequences, that
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: we need to be careful of our reason. We need
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: to we need to be wary of our reason, of
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: our intelligence. You know, that's a meta physical value judgment.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: There's a sense which that's a metaphysical value judgment about
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: the nature of man. Reality. I think, both for Homer
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: and for Nolan is scary. There monsters out there and
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: their gods to manipulate things. Even in Nolan's world, they
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: are gods to manipulate things. So reality is not completely knowable.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: Reality is not planable, you know. So there's a there's
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: a there's a everything's moving and it's not. You're not
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: the one who's moving it. It lacks you know, a
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: human agency in a sense is limited. It can only
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: get you so far. So Odysseus cannot get home without
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: the help of the gods, without putting himself on the
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: raft and let Jesus take the wheel and letting the
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: gods steer him home. His sailing, his his his leadership,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: his skill with boats, his skill with men, his his intelligence,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: does not getting home. What gets him home in the
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: end is trusting the gods. That's a metaphysical statement about
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: the world that you can understand Homer making in you know,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: almost maybe three thousand years ago. But not a good
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: not a good theme in the modern world. But that's
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: part of the part of the story of the Odyssey.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: It's part of what under minds I think the the
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: hero in the Odyssey. All right, oh, Kim asked, should
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: I watch this if I haven't seen the movie yet?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: Probably not, but you asked that I didn't see it
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: too late. I guess. Let's see. Lincoln says, glad to
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: see a high budget original movie do really well after
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: seemingly decades of franchise movies getting all the big budgets
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: and summer releases. Yes, and look, Oppenheimo was the same way.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: It was fun to see. It was a flawed movie,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: I thought, But an adult movie with adult themes and
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: adult characters. And it's not a superhero movie, and it's
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: not an action movie. It's actually a drama about somebody
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: interesting and something interesting and the same thing here. So yeah, absolutely,
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: absolutely Ali Salsa, Ali, Ali, Ali, Islam, Ali Islam. When
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: watching a film, are you actively analyzing it in the
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: moment or letting it impose itself and thinking afterwards love
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: the show? I try to let the movie just impose itself, right,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: and not actively analyze it. I have to admit that
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: in watching The Odyssey, I was actively analyzing, and partially
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: because I'd read so many reviews of it. I'd seen
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: so many people commenting on it online that it was
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: hard not to write. It was hard not to now
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: connect it to those analysis and so on. And I
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: also knew I was doing the show. So But ideally,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: a movie draws you in and you immerse yourself in
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: the movie, and you you you do some thinking because
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: you have to why is this happening? What's going on?
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: But you don't do the analysis until afterwards. Ideally, so
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: I didn't. I don't think it was this was an
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: ideal for me in the way I watched this time,
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: I do A D A A A D U R
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: C A R E T. They also removed the o
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: Disseus's wonder of the world and his brain ulysses polytropos.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: Isn't there? Yes, yes, I mean he again, the mind
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: isn't there other than coming up with the idea of
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: the host. There's no Odysseus. His mind is not there.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: That is his appreciation of the world is, yes, the
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: wonder of the world, and really the wonder of his
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: own intelligence. His ability to control his fate, at least
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: up to one point, as long as the gods are
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: letting him get away with it, that is not there.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: It isn't Homer Homa. Homa is a real ode to
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: a hero. We might from a modern perspective think of him. Yeah,
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: he's slaughtering people, They're doing all these horrible things. But
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: that's again the context is the Bronze Age. The context
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: there is a world of warloads and Odysseus as a
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: hero and what's unusual, and again what makes the Odyssey
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: I think more important than the Iliad and and and
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: kind of a founding, a founding, you know, work of
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: Western civilization, of civilization, No Western civil of civilization is
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: the world of the intelligence, is the world of reason,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: which for that early is really cool, really really really cool,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: and really really profound. Right again, we're talking about pre
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: classical Greece, pre classical Greece, that's when Homer would have
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: cited these long poems. Matt. This anti war messaging in
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: the movie made it impossible for me to enjoy. There
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: were other modern subversions of the original poem, but that
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: was too much. I didn't take it as a as
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: a as a anti war. Oh, it was an anti
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: slaughter and an anti destruction, an anti rape and pillage.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: But I don't think there was an anti war message.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: And also, if you think about the Trojan War, if
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: you think about it rationally, what was the logic of
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: that war? It was not a warf self defense? You know, again,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: the whole story with Helen, and I don't remember the
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: details of the story with Helen, and you'd have to.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's all in the Iliad, isn't it just
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: like the gods uh, playing around and fooling around, trying
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: to who's the most beautiful woman in the world. And
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: I mean it's all convoluted and uh and and and
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: perverse anyway, So I don't think it's I don't think
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: it's it's really anti war. What he's horrified by is
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: what happens when they when they enter Troy, and and
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: how kind of the horrors of of what what goes on?
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: And if you were convinced, and the movie doesn't make
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: the point, but you know it makes it seems like
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: in Odysseus's Mine, there's ambiguity about who the good guys
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: and the bad guys are as they really is in
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: they start till account. So I don't see it. Yeah,
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: and so I don't see it as an anti Wars again,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: as a story of sin and of guilt. And again
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed it less because of that, because because of
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: that's what it was about, rather than a story of hero.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: Roland says, sounds like a movie I'm going to pass
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: on for the same reasons I'm passing on the Atlas
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: Mini series. No, no, no, no, no, Roland, don't do that.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: That is so wrong. The Atlas Mini series, the Atlas
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: Mini series, or the three movies made from Atlas Shrugged
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: were horrible movies. And it wasn't even there was no
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: it wasn't that they were horrible philosophically. It's they were
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: horrible aesthetically. They were terrible, unenjoyable, badly acted, badly written, bad, cinematography,
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: bad bad, bad. There was literally nothing of value there.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: But if somebody makes a good movie of Atlas Shrugged.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: He's going to change the story. If you make a
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: three hour movie, you can't include all of it. Some
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: of the characters are going to have to be gone,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of the story lines is have to be changed.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: Hopefully the theme hasn't changed. That would be terrible. But
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: of course the theme of Homer odesty is not as
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: important as the theme of Adlas Shugg. So no, uh,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: there's a huge difference between this movie and the movies
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: of Atlas Shrugged, which were truly horrific and had no value.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: Could on remake Rand's work like Nolan with Homer, No,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: you know, no, because Rand has very very clear themes
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: that is that are crucial to the very essence of
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: what she is, you would have to call it something
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: completely different. I don't think the theme in Homer is
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: as important to the story, the story being told, the adventure,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: the action as it is in nine Ran. There's no
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: Actla Shrug without the theme of Adler Shrug. But Adlas
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: Shug has one main theme, but it has lots of
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: different themes. Some of those themes would go away in
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: a movie just to some of the you know, So,
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: you know, I think anyway. You know, for example, imagine
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: Als Shrug without Francisco. But you might have to exclude
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: Francisco from an Avis Struck movie if it's only two
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: hours or three hours. It's hard to tell the whole backstory.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: It's hard to create all the context for Francisco's involvement.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: Is we're meant to involve with Agne, his relationship with Golds,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: his superior abilities, you might have to cut him. I
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: mean a lot of you are going to say I'm
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: never going to see a movie without Francisco about the
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: show that's not I Ran. But that would be necessary
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: if you're going to make a movie. So yes, in
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: a sense that remaking Rand's work would require changing the story,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: cutting out big chunks of it, cutting out big main
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: characters in it. But Rand's novels, the theme is so
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: integrated and so crucial to everything the novel is. If
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: you did what Nolan did to the theme to Ran novel,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: you know, be you would destroyed. It would be completely destroyed.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: It would be nothing left that that the plot makes
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: no sense if you change the theme. Yeah, Nolan can
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: still create a plot that makes sense even though he
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: changed the theme. John People from michigan are called Michiganders.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: I hear you call us Michiganians. I'm kidding, guys. I've
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: got a number of comments on this Michiganians, I really
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: call you Michugans. But I'm just kidding with you, guys.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: I know some of the some of the Mischians on
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: the chat understand that I'm kidding. I'm making fun of you.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: Don't take it so seriously. I'm playing around with them Sugans, Michigan,
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: Michigans is crazy and Yiddish right to be a my
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: sugarnis to be crazy in Yiddish. So I'm playing with
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: that wood and the Michiganians and the Michiganis and Michigander
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: Gander's so loosen up, guys, loosen up. I know I
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: mispronounced a lot of stuff, so maybe I'm mispronouncing here
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: as well. No, here, I'm doing on purpose. Steve Steven
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: didn't the movie involve regret about over war crimes? But
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: they're not a What is a war crime? I mean,
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: what is a war crime? Who defines what a war
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: crime is? And does that definition involve context? We're talking
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: about the Bronze Age where they wore crimes in the
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: Bronze Age. What does that even mean? In whose context
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: of their war crimes? Is their tribunal is somebody try them?
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: Has anybody articulated them all code that would exclude rape
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: and pillage in the Bronze Age? No, this is three thousand,
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: five hundred earth almost four thousand years ago, right, I
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: mean you haven't. You haven't had philosophy. You don't really
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: have morality, have very primitive forms of morality, like this
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: is law standing in for morality, and violence is the
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: norm it might makes right, So there's no context in
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: the world of the Odyssey to think about war crimes.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: You know, is is the fact that the gods kill
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: all of Odysseus's men a war crime? I mean they
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: did nothing. So no, you can't think about that now. Again,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: you can bring modern conceptions of morality and bring them
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: into that world like Nolan did, but it's flawed because
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: it's not real to that. I mean, there's a challenge
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: in in making it real in that world, right U.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: Philosophy is only discovered really, you know, towards a classical era,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: so hundreds of years after the fall of Troy, I think,
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: so it's you know, it's it's around Troy is somewhere
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: around one thousand BC, maybe twelve hundred BC something like that. Again,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: there's archaeology suggests there's more than one war that sacks Troy.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: Troy is us are the founding myth of Rome, the
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: what is it the brothers who escape Troy go and
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: found Rome and which becomes the Roman Empire that then
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: vanquishes the Greeks. So there's a whole mythological kind of
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: historical suggestion there. But yeah, this is this is a
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: long time ago, and you know, you can bring again
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: Nolan Dues being his molo code to that. But you know,
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: does do the do the suitors deserve to die for
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: extending the hospitality and and mooching off of Odysseus In
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: our world today we would say no. But in that
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: world absolutely, So the whole conception of justice is different,
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: all right. Roland says, in my interpretation, the gods favor
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: and help Odysseus because of his intelligence, kind of like
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: a metaphor for nature to be command and must be obayed.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: I mean that is that's true. I mean Athena, who
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: is the goddess of wisdom and war. By the way, right,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: She's just the goddess of war, which makes it doubly
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: weird that she's the one that's so upset about what
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: happens in Troy. Athena would not be upset at all
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: about what happened to Toy. She'd be proud of Odysseus
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: for what he did in the Troy. Uh. But yeah, yeah,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: she loves Odysseus because of his intelligence, and I think
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: that's explicit in the Odyssey. In Homer's Odyssey, it's explicit
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: that she loves him because of his intelligence, and the
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: gods generally love him because of that, and this is
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: why Zeus agrees with Athena and saves Odysseus in spite
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: of Poseidon wanting to kill him. So it's absolutely explicitly
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: in the Odyssey that it is the intelligence that is
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: what the gods like about Odysseus. Christopher says, did you
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: see Athena was also a girl killed de Troy? I
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: saw that. I didn't see it in the movie, so
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: I didn't register that. I read it in some of
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: the reviews that they suggested that that it's ambiguous. Is
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: she the goal killed in Troy and therefore she's you know,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: haunting Odysseus. Is she Athena? Is she just figurment of
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: his imagination and his conscience? Maybe all three, but I
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: mean it's purposefully left ambiguous. It seems to me by
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: Christopher Nolan. ADU correct any views of Agamemnon. I mean,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: Agamemnon has this dramatic presence, but he's just a warlord.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: He's presented there, he's just, you know, in the gates
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: of Troy open, He's just this armored thing they're standing,
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: you know, imposing. He has no role. Then we see
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: him getting killed when he goes back home. So I
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: have no views on Agamemnon in this context. He is
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: a warlord, and the reason given for the war on
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: Troy in Nolan's movie is that Agamemnon wants to preserve
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: the trade routes that somehow Troy is obstructing. Andrew I
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: don't know any modern director who does better movies quadrama
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: than Nolan. But is that a low bar and a
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: sad statement about modern cinema. Yeah, I mean I think
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: it is. I think that they're just not enough good
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: dramas quadramas. There's a lot of action, there's a lot
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: of comedy and which is mostly bad. And there's a
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: lot of superhero moves but very little adult drama. And
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know of a director who's clearly better than
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: Nolan at adult dramas right now. But I'm not following
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: directors as much, I guess since the nineteen eighties. I'm
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: dating myself. So if there was one, I couldn't tell you.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: But I'm trying to think of dramas that I've seen
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: did really stand out that exceptional. And again, Nolan's all flawed.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: They're all flawed. Oppenheimo is very flawed, I thought, particularly
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: in terms of not really having a theme and not
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: having a point of view, just laying it out there
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: for us, but really well done, really well made, and
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: having the audacity to make adult movies with big budgets,
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: taking on risks, not knowing if they'll be successful, and
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: doing it, and Hollywood will support him doing that. I mean,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: this movie costs two and fifty million dollars to make
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: and it'll make a huge profit. Hollywood supporting that because
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: they know he's good at it, he can pull it off.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: But it is a little bar if you go back
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: to the fifties, is so many good or the fifties, forties, thirties,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: they're just so many good dramas. You know, it's you know,
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: you're a wash with him, if you will, all right, Andrew,
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: this is not related to the Odyssey. Somebody says, what
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: is this remem when it was one part of the movie.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: I didn't like at all. You never see his face,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: which is interesting. Yeah, I mean I I thought he represented,
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: he represented brute force. He's got. He's just an imposing figure,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: a brute force. And I think and I think that's
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: he represents what happens to Troy. And in a sense,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: he he died. He dies first. He is the first
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: one to suffer the consequences, if you will, of what
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: he's unleashed. He's also kind of the barbarian who sacrifices
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: his own daughter to the gods in order to gain
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: the victory and Troy any and he pays the price
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: for it as he should. All right, Ian says Dennis
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: villen Nive is interesting. I don't know how to announce
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: his name. Uh. When I said that he'd had a
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: preview of part of Doing three, I'd be interested to
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: see the preview of Doing three. I'm curious to see
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: how they do doing three Dunes. The Doo movies are
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: very good. They are very good, and they're very interesting.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: The second one is very interesting. It's going to be
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: interesting to see what happens in the third one, and
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: and and and how he does it. But I don't
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: know his other movies, so I don't know of what
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: other movies he's made and how interesting those movies are.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: So other than Dune is the the only movies I'm
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: familiar with. I guess he made a sequel to Blade Runner.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that. I don't know if it's any good.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: He made a Rival which I thought was mixed. Caio
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: did he was he the director of Sicario? Because I
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: thought I thought that was somebody else. Yeah, he directed Cicario.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: Scario is very good action movie, really good action movie,
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: a smart action movie, and and very well made and interesting,
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: interesting in the way it was made. So yeah, I
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: think he is a good just looking. I haven't seen
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of his movies. Maybe I should go back
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: and see more of his movies. But the movies that
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: have seen of his have been good. Yeah, I should
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: check out some of his other movies. All right, Andrew
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: some follow ups to fortify the connection between morality and economics. Ay,
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: is this correct? The value of economics objectivism is the
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: study of production and trade for the purpose of maximizing
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: an individual's pursuit of his values, which only by effect,
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: optimizes and nation's potential values. I'm not sure I understand
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: what do you mean by the value of economics? Right?
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: So the value economics to whom that can a free society?
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: Would you need to study economics? I mean some people would.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: It would be interesting. They enjoy it and they find
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: it interesting, and they could contribute to production by helping
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: guide businessmen. But what everybody needs to study economics would
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: be a value to everybody? No, I mean they just
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: go about their business. They'd go about their lives. They
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: might find it interesting. But so it's not clear that
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: the value economics to whom and to objectivism as a
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: philosophy is that it is in a sense of concretization
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: and application of the objective's ethics. Right, So, not the
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: objective's ethics, the objective's politics. It's an application of the
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: objective's politics. So it says, in a world in which
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: the government is limited to the protection of individual rights,
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: how do things work. That's the study of production and trade,
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: because that's what's working. So it's interesting in that respect,
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: and it's interesting and it's valuable for us to be
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: able to argue and convince people of the efficaciousness of
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: capitalism so that we move towards capitalism. But you don't
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: need economics to be a great businessman. Most businessmen don't
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: know anything about economics, for example, or to be a
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: great producer, or to be a great trader. B is
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: the selfish nature of economics. Economics purpose the key different
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: screen objectivism other approaches. Well, no, because Adam Smith recognizes
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: that people are selfish under capitalism, under free market, but
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: he views the device the differences that objectivism views it
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: as a virtue, and that's the difference Betreen objectivism and
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: other approaches. But objectivism doesn't have an approach to economics.
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have an economic theory. Objectivism is a philosophy.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: So objectivism has no economics. Let the economists figure out economics.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 1: What objectivism says is the purpose of economics is to
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: study production and trade for the purpose of human flourishing,
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: of individual human flourishing, and that the motivation of the
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: individual to flourish the selfish motivation is a good is
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: a good thing. That's what objectivism contributes. See do object
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: to scarcity as an action of economics based on metaphysics
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: or some morality well based primarion metaphysics based on the
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: idea that economics is about production and trade and scarcity
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: is about redistribution. Scarcity is about the existence of things,
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: and I'll desire for them, And there's scarcity in what exists.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: But you know, objectivesm goes beyond that and says, what's
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: interesting is not what exists. What's interesting is what man
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: can create. What's interesting is how man can manipulate reality
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: to fit his purpose. And that's metaphysics. It's a pistemology,
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: it's a bit of morality, it's all of the above,
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: but it's it's it's a completely different orientation, all right,
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: Keith thoughts of Mildred Pierce God. It sounds a nineteen
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: forty five movie. It sounds familiar, but I can't if
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: I've watched it. I can't remember, and I'm not sure
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: I have watched it. Sorry, Okay, Jacob can't let go
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: of the vax issue. Every vax fact I presented triple
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: checked you on, says I'm wrong, then proceeds to regurgitate
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: a mainstream media talking point. He just googled pathetic evasion. No,
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: every fact, every vax fact you present, you know I
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: have triple checked, and they're wrong. And it's not just
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: me thinks they're wrong. Ninety five percent of doctors and
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: sign and people who studied it in vaccine experts and
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: the people who actually care you know, treat children, who
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: actually care for children. The people there pediatricians. The vast
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: majority are pediatricians. So the experts, people who actually know
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: what they're talking about, they all think you're wrong. So
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: you triple check it with sources that you know that
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: that are predestined to be biased because you've picked them,
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: and you're not open to opposing facts, and you're not.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: You don't have See if I if I took a
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: position we're in science, we're pretty much all the people
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: doing that science disagreed with me. You know, I would
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: have doubts. You don't have doubts. And that suggests to
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: me that you know, you've accepted stuff on faith from
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: people who are haven't. I don't think you have a
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: bad intention here, but from people who have bad intentions,
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: and you that have have written about this and conveyed
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: this information to everybody with bad intentions. Again, almost all
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: the almost all the people that I know, and I
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: know a lot of doctors. You know, there's one doctor
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: I know of all the doctors I know personally who
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: who agrees with you in vax and that's one in
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: you know, several hundred, So you know it's it's so
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: not only have I triple checked, I've checked it with
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: all these doctors, which is you know, and they're experts
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: and they have an incentive. So you think, you must
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 1: think that most pediatricians don't care about children. Most pediatricians
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: are fine poisoning children. Most pediatricians don't think about what
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: they're doing. Now, granted, they could make mistakes, but the
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: science is where the science is, and the science is
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: clearly on the side of vaccines are great. And the
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: way you described the polio vaccination trials is an example
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: of that. There was clearly a placebo, two types of placebos,
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: and you know, if you don't get that, then you know,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: and that's so well documented. Beware of people who only
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: resources are resources that are not the mainstream media. Could
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: God forbid and anybody who accuses you of being wrong
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: because you look at the mainstream media. There's something wrong
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: about that, very wrong about that. All right, guys. Not
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 1: that the mainstream media is not biased, but to ignore
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: the mainstream media is really perverse. Thank you everybody for
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: being here. Thank you to all the super chat so
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: supporting the show. Don't forget Patreon and PayPal support the
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: show on a monthly basis. Tomorrow, Nicos, Nicos and I
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: will be talking about Inside the Mind of JD. Vance.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: Inside the Mind of Jdvans. Nicos has read Jdvance's book,
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: I've read a number of his articles, watched a bunch
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: of his interviews, and we'll be talking about JD then
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: maybe potentially the next president of the United States. See
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: you tomorrow with Nicos three pm East Coast time. Bye, everybody,