Latest / Inside Politics / Albanese’s warning on tyranny, dictators, and his selfie with Trump

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Albanese’s warning on tyranny, dictators, and his selfie with Trump · Inside Politics

0:01
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:04
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, September 26th.
0:12
S1: Today we're bringing you a special international episode of The Pod.
0:15
S1: The Prime Minister has spent the week in New York
0:17
S1: addressing the United Nations, recognising Palestinian statehood and chasing Donald
0:23
S1: Trump around Manhattan, trying to get a meeting. Here to
0:26
S1: tell us all about these capers. We have our chief
0:28
S1: political correspondent, Paul Satchell, as usual, and live from New York.
0:32
S1: We have foreign affairs and national security correspondent Matthew Knott. Hi, guys.
0:36
S2: Hi, Jack. Hi.
0:38
S3: Hi. Nice to be here.
0:47
S1: Now, I want to go straight to you in New York.
0:49
S1: Anthony Albanese had a lot on his schedule this week,
0:52
S1: but his big sort of ticket event, I suppose, was
0:54
S1: that he spoke to the UN General Assembly as a
0:58
S1: debut speaker. It was kind of the first time he'd
1:00
S1: done that. It was probably the biggest deal for him
1:03
S1: as a leader to address the UN. What did he
1:05
S1: sort of try to convey in that speech? What was
1:07
S1: the what was the job of that speech?
1:09
S3: Yeah, this was a significant moment for the Prime Minister,
1:12
S3: as you say, since he was elected in, uh, 2022.
1:16
S3: He hasn't appeared at the UN, he hasn't spoken. He
1:20
S3: hasn't been a part of this world. So. So this
1:23
S3: was a significant moment for him.
1:26
S4: Shared mission and purpose of the United Nations is not
1:29
S4: merely to contain the threat of war. It is to
1:32
S4: create the conditions for peace, to provide a framework for
1:37
S4: settling our disputes. To foster the dialogue that enables us
1:42
S4: to manage our differences and deepen our understanding.
1:47
S3: And to his speech, ah contained some newsy elements, I think,
1:51
S3: particularly the fact that Australia is going to make a
1:54
S3: serious bid for a non-permanent seat on the United Nations
2:00
S3: Security Council.
2:01
S4: Colleagues. It is not the Australian way to try and
2:04
S4: impose our values on other nations, but when we deal
2:08
S4: with the world, we bring our values with us and
2:11
S4: we strive to back our words with actions. Australia.
2:15
S3: He was also pitching Australia's bid for the Cop climate summit.
2:20
S4: Australia is acting to meet the environmental challenge of climate change,
2:26
S4: while working to seize and share the economic opportunities of
2:30
S4: renewable energy.
2:32
S3: So I think when you put those two together, what
2:34
S3: you can see is that he wants Australia to have
2:38
S3: a more influential role in these big global forums. He
2:42
S3: believes that the United Nations needs to be reformed and improved,
2:46
S3: but he believes in it. You know, he's coming at
2:49
S3: it from a place of someone who believes in multilateralism.
2:52
S3: His speech was very much about the UN as an
2:56
S3: important body that needs to be made better, particularly for
2:59
S3: a country like Australia. That's not a superpower. And also
3:03
S3: thinking about countries in our region like the Pacific, we
3:06
S3: need the United Nations to be working. So it was
3:11
S3: quite a dark speech in some ways about the times
3:13
S3: we live in, uh, in which, uh, dictators are on
3:17
S3: the rise. Uh, there's terrible wars happening around the world. Uh,
3:21
S3: we're battling, uh, disinformation. Uh, so, so he was really
3:26
S3: pitching Australia as a progressive middle power that's that can
3:30
S3: play a constructive, productive role in the world. And there
3:34
S3: was a big focus on climate change in this speech,
3:37
S3: which is noticeable because it's a very different, uh, take
3:41
S3: than Donald Trump's speech the day before.
3:44
S1: Yeah. Look, it was an interesting speech, wasn't it, because
3:46
S1: he did make references, very non-specific references to tyranny and
3:50
S1: sort of the rise of anti-democratic forces.
3:53
S4: In 2025, 25. We are confronted by all manner of
3:58
S4: these challenges in old forms and new. Dictators whose hold
4:03
S4: on power derive solely from their capacity for cruelty to.
4:08
S4: Their own citizens. Tyrants who invade sovereign nations to further
4:13
S4: their own ambitions. Regimes willing to crush their own people
4:18
S4: beneath the weight of oppression.
4:21
S1: Or, you know, all the stuff that we're really worried
4:23
S1: about coming out of America. Let's be honest. Was that
4:26
S1: a bit of a sort of controversial thing to do,
4:28
S1: right in the home of Donald Trump himself?
4:31
S3: I must say, I read those passages more, thinking about
4:34
S3: Vladimir Putin. That's how I was interpreting them. Uh, perhaps even, uh, Jinping.
4:41
S3: I think it's clearly in the recent days, the climate
4:45
S3: issue where there's this big difference with Donald Trump. I mean,
4:49
S3: Donald Trump has never believed in climate change at all.
4:53
S3: He hasn't changed his view, but he was really passionate
4:56
S3: about it in his speech. For example, Australia and the
5:00
S3: US also disagree on recognition of Palestine, but Trump spent
5:04
S3: much more time just berating nations who believe in climate change,
5:09
S3: who think renewable renewable energy is a good thing. Just
5:12
S3: speaking about it as a complete joke.
5:14
S5: It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world,
5:18
S5: in my opinion. Climate change, no matter what happens, you're
5:22
S5: involved in that. No more global warming, no more global cooling.
5:26
S5: All of these predictions made by the United Nations and
5:30
S5: many others, often for bad reasons, were wrong. They were
5:35
S5: made by stupid people that have lost their country.
5:38
S3: Now, that's such a big contrast with Albanese, who's arrived
5:42
S3: here with new ambitious climate targets, and a lot of
5:46
S3: his time has been taken up with meetings about climate change.
5:49
S3: You went to speak to a New York Times event
5:52
S3: today on climate change. This has been his focus. So
5:56
S3: I think that's where we're seeing such a big difference
5:58
S3: with the US and a big difference between the Trump
6:01
S3: administration and the Biden administration, which just a year ago,
6:05
S3: you know, there was an administration in power in Washington
6:08
S3: that really believed in climate change and was willing to
6:10
S3: make something happen.
6:11
S1: Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned Palestine. Obviously, the other major
6:14
S1: thing that happened this week was that Albanese joined in
6:18
S1: this conference, which was co-hosted by French President Emmanuel Macron,
6:21
S1: and they officially recognized Palestine.
6:24
S4: Recognizing the aspirations of the Palestinian people is about more
6:28
S4: than a seat, a voice and a vote in the
6:31
S4: councils of the world. It is about real hope for
6:34
S4: a place to call home. This is the same hope.
6:38
S1: Paul, I want to go to you. Um, down to
6:40
S1: the nitty gritty, real politic in Canberra. Do you think
6:43
S1: that active diplomacy, what will it do for the government's
6:47
S1: sort of domestic standing to people care? Will they give
6:49
S1: him credit for it? Will they deduct credit for it?
6:53
S2: Well, I think it's worth asking. Would the Prime Minister
6:55
S2: have spent a week in New York talking about the
6:58
S2: Palestinian question before the last election? The answer's probably not.
7:02
S2: He's more unencumbered. There's a totally different dynamic with the
7:05
S2: federal opposition now. Peter Dutton was much more fierce on
7:08
S2: this issue. He set the Palestine question up as a
7:11
S2: test of Albanese's Medal on National Security and Social Cohesion.
7:16
S2: The politics around that have largely been stripped away. Also
7:20
S2: worth noting that the international wins on this issue have
7:22
S2: changed significantly over recent months. Albanese is now freer with
7:27
S2: his big win and big mandate to reflect the kind
7:30
S2: of mainstream position among Western democracies now, which is that
7:33
S2: what's going on in Gaza should come to an end.
7:36
S2: The atrocities are have been in our faces for a
7:38
S2: long time, and he feels freer to go and do that,
7:41
S2: I think could easily be pitched by his opponents as
7:45
S2: a little bit of virtue signalling on the Palestine issue.
7:47
S2: On the more pragmatic side, as not-I mentioned, the climate
7:51
S2: change question is something that the government sees as a real,
7:54
S2: tangible win they can extract from this trip. Climate change
7:58
S2: is not pitched as a solely environmental issue. When the
8:01
S2: government speaks about it on the world stage, it's pitched
8:03
S2: as an economic issue. And to meet those climate targets,
8:07
S2: which we've announced last week, which are quite ambitious, despite
8:10
S2: some critics saying otherwise, we need a huge amount of
8:13
S2: private capital to be invested in Australia, and the green
8:16
S2: transition is really the biggest game in town in financial markets.
8:20
S2: So Chris Bowen going over there, meeting with investors, Albanese
8:24
S2: spruiking Australia's transition and our intent in that space is
8:30
S2: as much about attracting capital and making Australia an attractive
8:34
S2: place to invest as it is about any environmental concern.
8:37
S1: Sussan Ley also put her $0.02 in on the Palestine question,
8:41
S1: so she wrote to a bunch of Republicans and said, basically,
8:46
S1: this is not the bipartisan partisan position in Australia to
8:49
S1: recognise Palestine, and I think she even said that it
8:52
S1: was not. It didn't necessarily reflect the will of the
8:55
S1: Australian people. Penny Wong was really cross about that. She
8:59
S1: was evidently very annoyed. She almost tried to make out
9:01
S1: that it was somehow seditious of Susan Lee to to
9:04
S1: go against the official foreign policy. Knotty, what did you
9:07
S1: make of that? Was it was it really that big
9:08
S1: of a deal?
9:09
S3: It is extremely unusual. It was a little strange to
9:13
S3: be here at the UN headquarters, with all these heads
9:17
S3: of state and leaders weighing in on the big issues
9:20
S3: of our time, and then hearing about what an opposition
9:23
S3: leader who has incredibly little power or influence or prospect
9:27
S3: of being elected anytime soon, and a tenuous grip on
9:31
S3: power in an old party, are giving her and the
9:35
S3: coalition's view on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But Penny Wong is
9:41
S3: annoyed because this isn't the way foreign policy usually operates.
9:45
S3: You know, sometimes there are disagreements. But for Susan Lee
9:49
S3: to be writing to Republican members of Congress to undercut
9:55
S3: and undermine the government's official position is really unusual. But
10:01
S3: the government and Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, yeah, they've appeared
10:04
S3: very confident in their position. I was thinking as we
10:08
S3: saw them. Penny Wong and Albanese standing at a press
10:11
S3: conference and confirmed that this change, which was really announced
10:14
S3: a month ago, was going into official effect. Just how
10:18
S3: much they presented this as a totally common sense, unremarkable
10:23
S3: move that anyone would approve of. He was talking about,
10:28
S3: you know, there's Israel and Palestine. It's not Israel and Marrickville,
10:31
S3: of course we're going to recognise them both, whereas this
10:34
S3: has been an issue that has been agonised over and
10:38
S3: and the government has agonised how to do this and
10:40
S3: when and how to make a difference. And will it
10:42
S3: just be a gesture or will it not? All those
10:44
S3: doubts have been washed away, and I think of it
10:47
S3: in the same way the government talks about, uh, taking
10:51
S3: climate change seriously as the price of admission in the Pacific.
10:55
S3: I think they now see recognising Palestine as the price
10:58
S3: of admission, really, to play a productive role in that
11:01
S3: part of the world, in the Middle East that so
11:03
S3: many countries now are moving. We're not doing this in
11:07
S3: an isolated way. Canada, France, the UK, uh, there's talk
11:12
S3: about what is going to happen in Gaza after the war.
11:15
S3: Emmanuel Macron is talking about an international Stabilisation Force. There's
11:20
S3: a lot of discussion about how the world will help Gaza.
11:23
S3: And Anthony Albanese is putting Australia in a position where
11:26
S3: we can play some role while as they always come
11:29
S3: back to we're not a central player in that part
11:32
S3: of the world.
11:33
S1: So, Paul, I want to ask you about that, because
11:35
S1: when we were talking earlier this week, you sort of
11:38
S1: made the point that for the better part of two years,
11:40
S1: Albanese has fended off both left and right on this
11:43
S1: question of Palestine by basically saying that whatever we do,
11:46
S1: recognizing Palestinian statehood or not, it won't make much difference
11:50
S1: because we're not a major player. So has he. Why
11:52
S1: has he changed his tune? Has he changed his tune?
11:54
S1: What's going on?
11:55
S2: I think there is an inherent contradiction in what's happened
11:58
S2: this week, in terms of how he's put this at
12:00
S2: the center of his travel to New York. As you
12:03
S2: said from our conversation earlier in the week, he's his
12:06
S2: key line to critics on the left and right, both
12:09
S2: of which were very vociferous in their criticism of him
12:11
S2: for the past 18 months, was that, no, we're not
12:13
S2: going to to to do more to support Israel. Peter Dutton,
12:17
S2: because we're not a central player there. We can support
12:20
S2: the Jewish community in Australia without making noises internationally to
12:24
S2: do more on the Israeli side and to the Greens
12:27
S2: on the left, who wanted greater sanctions, who have made
12:30
S2: all kinds of calls for Australia to make tangible action
12:34
S2: to end the war effort in Gaza. His argument is
12:37
S2: that we have no economic ties to Israel and an
12:41
S2: important but not hugely influential voice diplomatically in the Middle
12:45
S2: East as well. So that's been his key retort. Back
12:48
S2: to arguments to do more here this week, putting at
12:52
S2: the center of his travel this, uh, Australian role in
12:56
S2: this emerging peace plan, I think contradicts that political line
13:01
S2: that he used. It perhaps shows that that political line
13:05
S2: was nothing more than a political line, that there actually
13:08
S2: was potentially more Australia could have been doing the whole
13:10
S2: way through. It also probably reflects what I mentioned earlier,
13:13
S2: that the international winds have changed. There is now nearly
13:17
S2: global consensus in the West, putting the US to one
13:21
S2: side that the only way to get Netanyahu to change
13:25
S2: course is to put maximum pressure on. So the circumstances
13:28
S2: have changed. I think the Prime Minister's probably also searching
13:31
S2: for in his second term, a way to boost his
13:36
S2: image as a bit of a statesman, to make a
13:38
S2: big international pitch that elevates himself from just purely a
13:43
S2: domestic politician. And I think he sees what Macron and
13:46
S2: Starmer are doing on the world stage as attractive. There
13:49
S2: are really different circumstances for Macron and Starmer, though. They're
13:51
S2: both facing terrible turmoil domestically and are in very parlous positions,
13:56
S2: the two of them. Whereas Albanese is in a terrific
13:59
S2: position domestically and as he has made the point many times,
14:04
S2: privately and publicly, most Australian people, even though there is
14:07
S2: a significant group of people who are worried about what's
14:09
S2: happening in Gaza, his judgment has been that most Australians
14:12
S2: don't want to see an active Australian role here. Uh,
14:16
S2: yet in spite of that, he's now tied himself rhetorically
14:20
S2: and in a in a potentially tangible way through what
14:23
S2: not he mentions about this peacekeeping role. He's tied himself
14:26
S2: to this potentially doomed process that may not succeed given
14:30
S2: the circumstances on the ground are going in the other direction.
14:33
S2: Potential annexation of the West Bank, escalation in Gaza. So
14:37
S2: I think there is risk there and also contradiction there.
14:40
S3: Yeah, we've even seen a penny. reminiscing about how Australia's
14:42
S3: going to partner with Indonesia? Really to help rewrite the
14:46
S3: curriculum in Palestine. So we're getting involved to that level
14:51
S3: of detail. And this also comes on the back of some, uh,
14:56
S3: at least short term failures in the Pacific, in our
14:59
S3: very own part of the world to strike agreements. So
15:03
S3: that's been very obvious that we're getting very involved in
15:07
S3: the Middle East while things aren't going so well in
15:10
S3: our region. And just when you're talking about Susan, uh,
15:13
S3: so the most recent polling we did, which was a
15:15
S3: straightforward question, you get different results depending how you ask it.
15:18
S3: But our polling found that around 30% of Australians supported recognition,
15:23
S3: around 30% opposed, and the rest were undecided or didn't
15:28
S3: have a strong view. So that really shows, I think,
15:30
S3: a split population. It doesn't show that there's overwhelming opposition
15:35
S3: to it, like Susan might be suggesting.
15:38
S1: I felt that she misrepresented that polling, because the way
15:40
S1: that I read it was, yeah, that 30%, as you
15:43
S1: just said. But the group in the middle were sort
15:44
S1: of like open to Palestinian recognition.
15:47
S3: Interest in it. It's not the main issue for them.
15:50
S3: For them.
15:50
S1: Yeah. Which is, you know, as, as the government has
15:53
S1: judged it, I suppose. So basically you're saying with, with Albanese, he's,
15:57
S1: he's trying to sort of evolve or grow into this
15:59
S1: role where he takes a greater interest or a greater,
16:02
S1: a greater role in international affairs and take up some
16:05
S1: of these huge international issues that we're dealing with, like Palestine,
16:08
S1: like climate change. So there's a risk and a reward
16:11
S1: there for him, I suppose. But how has he seemed
16:14
S1: this week being in the United Nations? Like you will
16:17
S1: have seen him at close quarters. Can you just set
16:19
S1: the scene for us a little bit? Does he seem relaxed?
16:22
S1: It must be very daunting. I would have thought, for
16:24
S1: most people to meet these huge world leaders like Macron,
16:28
S1: and even not to mention Trump. He got a selfie
16:31
S1: with Trump, which was interesting. Yeah. How's his demeanour been?
16:36
S3: Well, yes. And I think to understand what it's been
16:38
S3: like being on this trip and covering it is that
16:40
S3: there's two parallel universes operating at once. The reality of
16:46
S3: being here in the United Nations and what's actually happening
16:49
S3: in terms of those meetings and and the conference. Then
16:52
S3: there's been the story of whether he's going to meet
16:56
S3: Donald Trump and when that's going to happen. So the
17:00
S3: two things have been running at the same time and
17:03
S3: interacting with each other. So a big story has been
17:07
S3: will he get a meeting with Trump or will he not?
17:09
S3: Will that make the trip a failure or not? Uh,
17:12
S3: is it going to happen now or is it going
17:14
S3: to happen at the white House? We had confirmation yesterday
17:17
S3: that there's going to be a separate, uh, trip in
17:19
S3: October to the white House. And so even throughout all that, uh,
17:24
S3: the Prime Minister has appeared really relaxed. Uh, and really,
17:28
S3: it is really comfortable in, uh, what he's been saying.
17:34
S3: He hasn't seemed under pressure. And that was interesting to
17:36
S3: several of us When it was unclear what was going
17:39
S3: on with this Trump meeting. He didn't seem anxious about that.
17:42
S3: And I think that's because they knew, obviously working on
17:44
S3: it behind the scenes, that this was probably going to
17:48
S3: come off. But he does have a meeting locked in.
17:51
S3: So he's yeah, I think he's happy. He's he's happy
17:54
S3: about that.
17:54
S1: Yeah. He's feeling he's feeling relaxed about that. I mean
17:57
S1: it could go either way for him I suppose on
17:58
S1: October 20th when he goes to the white House to
18:00
S1: meet Trump, that's.
18:01
S3: An issue for them. Yeah.
18:02
S1: Yeah. That's that's tomorrow Elbow's problem.
18:05
S2: I think the, the political calculus on how he sees
18:09
S2: the US relationship is probably revealed by the decision to post.
18:12
S1: Let's talk about the selfie. I'm sure a lot of
18:14
S1: our listeners would have would have seen it. But but
18:15
S1: Albanese you know amid all this speculation, is he going
18:18
S1: to get a meeting. Is he not. He posted, yeah.
18:20
S1: On his social media. A selfie of him with Trump.
18:22
S1: Trump has this startling white teeth. And how did you
18:26
S1: see that selfie as a kind of image.
18:28
S2: Well, so the Prime Minister might be grumpy in public
18:33
S2: when asked about this meeting with Trump. He's clearly sick
18:35
S2: of the line of questioning. There's no doubt that at
18:37
S2: some points the media have looked a bit obsessed with it.
18:40
S2: It is. It is important. His view is that there's
18:42
S2: hysteria around it. Okay. That's understandable. He likes to criticise
18:46
S2: the media. He's been comfortable, as you say, Naughtie this week,
18:49
S2: knowing that there probably is a white House meeting down
18:51
S2: the track and that this week in New York has
18:53
S2: not been crucial. Yet despite that, he still feels the
18:56
S2: need to get into this room with dozens of other
18:59
S2: world leaders where journalists and and photographers were not allowed.
19:02
S2: Wait for this selfie and post this selfie on social media.
19:06
S2: Donald Trump is one of the most unpopular politicians among
19:09
S2: Australians of any global leader, so there's no domestic benefit
19:14
S2: for him in being seen posing in a kind of superficial,
19:19
S2: slightly odd looking selfie with Donald Trump. But he clearly
19:22
S2: sees some benefit in proving to both his critics in
19:26
S2: Australia to potentially sceptical Republicans and people in the Trump
19:30
S2: orbit who Kevin Rudd is dealing with over there, that
19:33
S2: a he's comfortable being with Donald Trump and the Bay,
19:36
S2: he secured the meeting that was deemed of greater significance
19:39
S2: than any downside of being in a smiley photo with
19:42
S2: Donald Trump, and I think that's revealing.
19:44
S3: We don't know exactly what went on in that room.
19:47
S3: As you said, there was no access to journalists. But
19:49
S3: the relationship has begun from that moment, as if they'd
19:53
S3: never met in person before. And Donald Trump is clearly
19:55
S3: a big believer in first impressions, this instant idea of
19:59
S3: whether he likes someone or not. He spoke about this
20:01
S3: in his very long speech to the UN General Assembly.
20:05
S3: He followed the president of Brazil, who always starts, and
20:09
S3: Trump has imposed huge tariffs on Brazil. He's really furious
20:13
S3: at the current Socialist president of Brazil because Donald Trump's
20:18
S3: friend and the former leader of Brazil, who was a
20:21
S3: right wing populist, just like Trump, is going to go
20:23
S3: to jail for trying to subvert the election. There's a
20:26
S3: lot of parallels between Trump and Bolsonaro, so he's not
20:30
S3: been a fan of the current president of Brazil. But
20:32
S3: then they had a brief handshake. And Donald Trump said
20:35
S3: in his speech, oh, we only spoke for 50s, but
20:37
S3: I think this guy is actually great. We got along
20:39
S3: really well. We had this instant rapport, and I want
20:42
S3: him to come and have a meeting next week. This
20:45
S3: was all just in the space of less than a minute.
20:47
S3: So that's the way he sees people as so. It
20:50
S3: seemed to be a friendly photo with Albanese. He said
20:53
S3: before that he thinks he's a good man and he's
20:56
S3: described him as a good guy.
20:58
S1: So yeah, they've chatted on the phone.
21:00
S3: So they're clearly huge ideological differences between them. Just they
21:04
S3: view the world in such different ways. They don't seem
21:08
S3: like people who would naturally go along. But Albanese has
21:11
S3: had a good record of having good interpersonal style with
21:16
S3: fellow world leaders, and he'll be hoping that he can, uh,
21:20
S3: you know, subtly, uh, flatter Trump in some ways.
21:24
S1: I wonder if that's what the selfie was about was
21:26
S1: I mean, it was a little bit of a fu
21:28
S1: to I think you're right. The Australian press corps and
21:31
S1: all his critics at home like, you know, look, here
21:34
S1: I am rubbing shoulders literally with this guy that you
21:36
S1: all said was shunning me. But wasn't it also like
21:40
S1: showing to Trump and Trump's inner circle that he's a fan?
21:44
S1: You know, he's a fan boy. And so, you know.
21:47
S2: Yeah we're comfortable.
21:47
S1: Yeah. So you should treat me well when I come
21:49
S1: to greet you and meet you and, you know, kiss
21:52
S1: your ring. Um, at on October 20th at the white House.
21:56
S2: And the PM's got a got a. If you talk
21:58
S2: to the people who've known him for a long time,
22:00
S2: who've served with him in Parliament and some of his friends,
22:02
S2: he's one of his great abilities is to strike up
22:04
S2: rapport with characters who he doesn't necessarily get along with politically.
22:09
S2: He's had a lot of long, long lasting relationships with
22:11
S2: News Corp executives in Australia, with conservative politicians. He actually
22:16
S2: had a good personal relationship with Peter Dutton, despite obviously
22:19
S2: not seeing eye to eye at all. It's one of
22:21
S2: his skills as a politician.
22:23
S1: Yeah, and he was. That's why he resoundingly outcampaigned Peter Dutton,
22:27
S1: because he is one of those politicians who's able to
22:29
S1: walk into any room, I think, and and pretty much
22:31
S1: make friends and be warm and affable with most people.
22:35
S1: All right, guys, thanks so much. And we'll talk to
22:38
S1: you both again soon.
22:39
S2: Talk to you soon.
22:40
S3: Thank you.
22:47
S1: Today's episode was produced by Kea Wong with technical assistance
22:51
S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and
22:55
S1: Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to
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S1: you for listening.