Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Bitcoin OG Predicts $1,000,000 in 2025 | EP 1121

Transcript

Bitcoin OG Predicts $1,000,000 in 2025 | EP 1121 · Simply Bitcoin

• 0:00
  Yo, a Bitcoin OG predicted $1 million Bitcoin by 2025.
• 0:08
  No, this isn't, this isn't click bait whatsoever.
• 0:11
  Something needs to happen in order for that to happen, and
• 0:14
  we're going to talk about that today. 35% odds on the betting
• 0:19
  market, Poly market that the United States makes Bitcoin a
• 0:23
  strategic reserve asset. And this Bitcoin OG, also known
• 0:27
  as Adam Back said that if that were to happen, Bitcoin will hit
• 0:32
  seven figures, which is absolutely bonkers, but it makes
• 0:35
  sense as well. States, according to Dennis
• 0:38
  Porter, breaking news earlier on today, are racing to make
• 0:42
  Bitcoin strategic reserve on a state level.
• 0:45
  So it seems like there's like the game theory is playing out.
• 0:48
  And by the way, this isn't just a theory.
• 0:50
  This isn't just as a hypothesis. Pennsylvania State
• 0:54
  representative already introduced a bill that said,
• 0:57
  hey, listen, we should make Bitcoin a strategic reserve
• 1:01
  asset on the state level in Pennsylvania.
• 1:04
  And what we found out from Dennis at the adopting Bitcoin
• 1:07
  conference, when we interviewed him for about a six to seven
• 1:09
  minute interview, he said that 10 other states are considering
• 1:13
  to follow suit. Also earlier today on Dennis's
• 1:17
  tweets, Senator Cynthia Lummis confirmed that, hey, on the
• 1:21
  federal level, you know, we shouldn't get left behind.
• 1:25
  So it seems like all, you know, the, the states are FOMO ING in
• 1:28
  on the federal level. They're FOMO ING in what happens
• 1:32
  if a if a strategic reserve happens in the United States on
• 1:36
  an international level, all these other countries are going
• 1:40
  to look at the US and say, hey, listen, if we don't buy Bitcoin,
• 1:44
  we're going to get left behind. And you think that Michael
• 1:47
  Saylor buying $4.6 billion worth of Bitcoin is a lot?
• 1:51
  I mean, imagine when the federal government steps in when they're
• 1:55
  with with their unlimited money printer, it's going to be
• 1:58
  absolute bananas. Anyways, guys, it's going to be
• 2:00
  a great show. I want to introduce my legendary
• 2:02
  Co host Optimus Fields and our guest for today, Seth for
• 2:06
  privacy, Seth is with Cake wallet.
• 2:09
  Seth, welcome back to the show. I want to get your thoughts on
• 2:12
  this before I pull up the tweets and the articles.
• 2:15
  The strategic reserve asset, I mean, you know, it's been going
• 2:19
  up. Initially, the Poly market odds
• 2:21
  when Trump announced it in Nashville was around 20%.
• 2:25
  It's up to 35%. I mean, it's still not, you know
• 2:29
  what, 50 or 60%, but it continues to grow up.
• 2:32
  It continues to go up. And you know, thinking about
• 2:35
  this two years ago when our industry was being attacked left
• 2:38
  and right by the current administration that is going out
• 2:42
  of power in on January 20th when Trump gets inaugurated, we would
• 2:47
  have never have imagined this in a million years, right?
• 2:51
  And then Fast forward two years later, you have the president
• 2:54
  wishing a Satoshi happy birthday.
• 2:56
  You know, on on tweets, he's saying, I'm going to free Ross.
• 2:59
  And now he's floating this idea of a, a strategic Bitcoin
• 3:03
  reserve. States are saying, no, we want
• 3:05
  to make St. strategic Bitcoin reserves on a state level,
• 3:08
  nation states are saying, you know what, if the US does it,
• 3:11
  we're going to do it. Could you have ever have
• 3:12
  imagined this, Seth? I feel like we've made a lot of
• 3:15
  progress as an industry, at least on the price level.
• 3:18
  I think from a revolutionary aspect, obviously we want
• 3:21
  Bitcoin in the hands of individuals.
• 3:23
  We don't want Bitcoin in the hands of government.
• 3:26
  Yeah, I mean, that's the that's the tricky thing for me is
• 3:29
  trying to like balance this with how how we view Bitcoin as
• 3:34
  freedom money because like the financial sense for a government
• 3:36
  to jump in on Bitcoin and use it as a strategic reserve.
• 3:40
  It's pretty clear. I like, I don't think anyone
• 3:42
  would argue that cypherpunk or kind of number go up normally.
• 3:45
  There's no real argument there that Bitcoin has proven itself.
• 3:48
  So the financial sense for governments to jump in and do
• 3:50
  this are, are clear because the, the scarcity and the the
• 3:56
  benefits of it being digital are huge for governments because
• 3:59
  it's, it's much simpler than physical gold.
• 4:01
  It it's proven itself as a story value.
• 4:03
  So like, I think all of that makes sense.
• 4:05
  I think just a thing that keeps coming back to my mind is like
• 4:08
  his, how is this going to impact the freedom money side of
• 4:12
  Bitcoin? And, and hopefully it doesn't
• 4:14
  it, it doesn't necessarily have to.
• 4:16
  And like you said, I mean, they, they have the money printer.
• 4:18
  They don't need to necessarily resort to any more extravagant
• 4:21
  means to to get the Bitcoin that they want for strategic reserve
• 4:25
  down the line. But that's kind of the thing
• 4:27
  that that is in the back of my mind is, is what will this mean
• 4:31
  as far as the government's attacks or support of Bitcoin?
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  Like you said, these, these last four years have been rough, very
• 4:39
  rough, especially the last like 18 months where it's been clear
• 4:42
  that governments are trying to prevent self custody, prevent
• 4:45
  privacy. But now we have the US
• 4:47
  government leading the way and saying that at least as a
• 4:50
  financial asset, Bitcoin is a valuable tool.
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  So I think it's the main thing is just keep keep trying to
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  think about what does this actually mean for the freedom
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  money sides of Bitcoin alongside the number go outside of
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  Bitcoin. 100% And that's the way that people should see it,
• 5:04
  right? There is Bitcoin as an
• 5:06
  investment and there is Bitcoin as the revolution.
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  I think, you know, as as millennials and Gen.
• 5:12
  Z ers that really, really got the short end of the stick due
• 5:15
  to 2008 financial crisis. You know, I mean, I think a lot
• 5:19
  of us are here for the revolution, which is of course
• 5:22
  the inevitable separation of money state.
• 5:24
  Anyways, I do want to get to today's news.
• 5:27
  So first what started all this commotion?
• 5:30
  Adam back. Adam back was cited in the
• 5:33
  original Satoshi Bitcoin white paper.
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  He tweeted this out yesterday at 11:58 AM.
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  He said if the US strategic Bitcoin reserve happens, prepare
• 5:44
  for seven figure Bitcoin this cycle.
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  That's right, ladies and gentlemen.
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  He is saying that if the United States makes Bitcoin a reserve
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  asset, he's predicting that Bitcoin hit seven figures.
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  By the way, it doesn't sound too crazy.
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  We're almost at $100,000. That would be a 10X, right?
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  Essentially, I know the law, the law of large numbers comes into
• 6:08
  play. It's a lot harder for Bitcoin to
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  10X at 100,000 than it was at 1000.
• 6:13
  But still, the discussion changes when nation states
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  essentially legitimize Bitcoin by adopting it as a reserve
• 6:24
  asset. This is something that's already
• 6:26
  happened. El Salvador has a public
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  treasury. Anyone could see it.
• 6:30
  They have their they post their address publicly.
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  I think they buy one Bitcoin a day or something like that.
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  So it's it's already happened. It just obviously it would be
• 6:40
  much more significant if the United States did it because the
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  United States on an economical level and on a military level,
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  it's the most powerful country on the face of the planet,
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  right? And it would be insane.
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  It would be bonkers. So I completely agree with Adam
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  Back, This isn't bull juice. This isn't opium.
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  This this is something that could possibly happen and here's
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  more news. So here's Dennis Porter massive
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  breaking. I can confirm that BlackRock is
• 7:06
  now endorsing a a strategic Bitcoin reserve.
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  Now that makes sense. Why does that make sense?
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  Because this is what I I always talk about aligned incentives in
• 7:16
  Bitcoin Bitcoin BlackRock is selling Bitcoin right that no,
• 7:20
  they're not selling spot Bitcoin, they're selling ETF
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  Bitcoin right. We, you know, the revolution of
• 7:25
  self custody after all, but still, you know, they're they're
• 7:28
  incentivized for number go up because number go up means more
• 7:32
  people buy the ETF, more people buy the ETF, more fees that they
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  collect, right? This is what we mean by aligned
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  incentives. Now it totally makes sense why
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  they would endorse a strategic Bitcoin reserve from a Black
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  Rock level. Also, another piece of breaking
• 7:48
  news from Dennis, he says I am now in a race to pass strategic
• 7:52
  Bitcoin reserve legislation into law before Donald Trump can sign
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  a strategic Bitcoin reserve executive order.
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  To be honest, I'll probably pass this law in multiple states
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  before Trump the states will lead.
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  Moving on to the next tweet. And then you guys are saying,
• 8:09
  OK, maybe Dennis is, you know, like I don't believe him
• 8:13
  personally. Guys.
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  Like I've seen Dennis's proof of work, you know however you feel
• 8:19
  about him individually. I judge people based on their
• 8:22
  proof of work, and his proof of work has shown me that on
• 8:26
  multiple states he has successfully passed legislation
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  to protect the right to self custody and protect the right to
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  mine. Don't take my word for it,
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  verify it yourself. And I know that in Pennsylvania,
• 8:40
  for example, he was a huge player in convincing the
• 8:44
  legislate, the certain representatives over there to
• 8:48
  introduce a bill for a strategic Bitcoin reserve.
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  This has never happened before. And this was Dennis's doing.
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  Dennis, you know, talk to a lot of these politicians and was
• 8:58
  like saying like, look, you should definitely do this,
• 9:00
  right? So this happened, I think it was
• 9:02
  like last week when we broke this news.
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  We broke news on the Adopting Bitcoin live stream that we did
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  on Friday and Saturday. I had an interview with Dennis
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  and he confirmed that 10 other states, that's, that's right,
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  ten other states are looking to do the same as Pennsylvania.
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  Now, has this bill passed? No, but according to the
• 9:23
  representative that introduced the bill, he said that there is
• 9:26
  a high likelihood that it will pass because Pennsylvania is a
• 9:30
  high energy state. We had the CEO of Bit Farms come
• 9:34
  on the show last week and he said that they're expanding for
• 9:38
  mining capability and capacity and Pennsylvania because of the
• 9:43
  favorable regulatory environment.
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  He also emphasized that this bill by Pennsylvania is
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  bipartisan. So you have both Democrats and
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  Republicans supporting a bill that would make Bitcoin a
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  strategic reserve in the state of Pennsylvania.
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  And it looks like on the federal level there's a race.
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  Anyways, here's the next tweet by Dennis Porter.
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  He says breaking I'm now in a race to pass the strategic
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  Bitcoin reserve legislation to law before Donald Trump.
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  The states will leave lead. Most importantly, the signal
• 10:15
  here is the Bitcoin senator, Senator Cynthia Lummus of
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  Wyoming responding to Dennis saying so great that we are
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  finally in a race to win the future instead of the race to
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  the bottom of the pile. It kind of confirms what Dennis
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  is saying. I mean, this is a US senator
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  responding to Dennis. This is not like, you know, just
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  a bunch of bitcoins on on on Twitter just talking shit.
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  This is real stuff. So, yeah, I mean, this is crazy.
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  I could never have imagined this.
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  This is a total 180 of where we were six months ago, where me
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  and Opti were really talking about it.
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  Like, yo, Opti, should we relocate to El Salvador?
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  Because I think there's a high possibility that they'll make
• 11:00
  Bitcoin self custody illegal in the United States.
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  Complete 180, right? So, you know, the Trump
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  administration has yet to be sworn into office.
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  They're not in power yet. That happens on January 20th.
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  We'll see what happens. He has promised he's going to
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  free Ross on day one. And the last thing I'll share,
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  forgot to share this guy's because the pin the most
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  accurate when it came to predicting the 2024 United
• 11:27
  States election. What happened there?
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  Thank you, Opti, according to Polymarket.
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  Remember guys, the reason that the betting odds are so accurate
• 11:37
  is because polls could be manipulated.
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  When it comes to putting, you know, money behind money behind
• 11:45
  your idea, it's a totally different conversation.
• 11:48
  And This is why betting odds historically have been more
• 11:52
  accurate at predicting elections than the so-called polls, right?
• 11:57
  So according to the betting odds by one of the largest, you know,
• 12:00
  betting markets in the world, Poly market, Trump will create,
• 12:05
  it gives it gives it a 34% chance that Trump creates a
• 12:10
  national Bitcoin reserve. Now I know what a lot of you
• 12:13
  guys are saying, Nico, that's a let down.
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  WTF. You know, that's not a good
• 12:18
  number. I'm not happy.
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  I mean, if I told you four years ago there's a 34% chance that
• 12:25
  the United States would create a strategic Bitcoin reserve, you
• 12:29
  would have been like, I'll take that.
• 12:31
  That sounds amazing, right? So, yeah, this is insane.
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  Reality is stranger than fiction.
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  And boy, has this been a complete 180 compared to the
• 12:43
  current administration that has been relatively hostile.
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  One last little bit before I pass it on to Seth.
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  It seems like Howard Lupnik, again, according to the Poly
• 12:52
  market odds, has a high probability of being appointed
• 12:56
  to some, you know, position in the Trump administration.
• 13:00
  Remember, Howard Lupnik, not only managers, the reserves for
• 13:05
  Tether in their investments counter Fitzgerald, but also he
• 13:09
  was on the Pompiano podcast not too long ago where Pomp was
• 13:13
  asking him, so you're going to buy Bitcoin.
• 13:14
  He's like, I'm going to buy 1010s of millions of Bitcoin,
• 13:17
  then hundreds of millions of Bitcoin.
• 13:19
  So could you imagine that the potential future U.S.
• 13:23
  Treasury is a Bitcoiner that holds hundreds of millions of
• 13:27
  Bitcoin? I mean, you can only kind of use
• 13:30
  a little bit of common sense, Sofia, to have a idea, idea of
• 13:33
  what the regulatory environment is going to be in the next four
• 13:37
  years or so. Anyways, I'm going to pass it on
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  to Seth. Seth, I know we we got to
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  emphasize this right on the price level, this is extremely
• 13:44
  bullish on the revolution level. It's a little bit dangerous
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  because people get comfortable with the Atfs.
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  People are like, why should I take self custody?
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  You know, there's a positive regulatory environment, but what
• 13:55
  are your thoughts in terms of the the bullish aspect?
• 14:00
  Yeah, I mean, the the most encouraging news out of all this
• 14:03
  honestly is just that so far at least it seems that this new
• 14:07
  administration will be at worst just not aggressively anti
• 14:13
  crypto and anti Bitcoin. And I think that's the, the most
• 14:16
  important thing that I'm excited about.
• 14:18
  Like the, the national reserve, like we talked about, I think
• 14:20
  it, it makes financial sense. And I'm not too surprised.
• 14:22
  And I think that they, if they do follow through on that, they
• 14:26
  line things up really well to make sure that they can keep
• 14:30
  the, the onrush of funds within the legacy financial system.
• 14:33
  I mean, I think the, I don't want to say it's a conspiracy
• 14:37
  theory or that I'm a conspiracy theorist, but the timing of the
• 14:39
  ETFs all happening before this change.
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  And I don't think anyone knew that Trump would be elected at
• 14:44
  that point. But that all being in place,
• 14:47
  that kind of traditional financial system infrastructure
• 14:50
  to allow people to buy Bitcoin but not actually use or hold
• 14:54
  Bitcoin themselves fits again, it fits well with what the US
• 14:59
  government would want out of this because ultimately what
• 15:02
  they want is they want to cement the supremacy of the dollar and
• 15:05
  they want to ensure that they continue getting income from
• 15:08
  anybody using Bitcoin as much as possible.
• 15:10
  And so I don't see that changing.
• 15:11
  And I think the ETF's are a good tool for them.
• 15:14
  Unfortunately, like you mentioned, they're they're not a
• 15:16
  tool for revolution in the sense of actually providing people
• 15:20
  freedom to transact how they want.
• 15:22
  They can provide financial freedom in the sense that they
• 15:26
  can be a good investment tool that gets you more fee out at
• 15:28
  the end of the day, but very different than what we're
• 15:30
  talking about the the, the revolutionary aspects of Bitcoin
• 15:34
  as you put it. So I think the most important
• 15:36
  thing that I, I'm curious to see what happens with is is there
• 15:39
  going to be any continued push back on self custody to try and
• 15:43
  get more of the, the Bitcoin? If there's, if there is this
• 15:46
  rush for Bitcoin. And as we all know, it's an
• 15:49
  extremely scarce asset that seems to be getting more and
• 15:51
  more scarce as more people are trying to buy large amounts of
• 15:54
  it daily. And that's even before Federal
• 15:57
  Reserve or something kicks in. Will they take any drastic steps
• 16:01
  to increase their access to Bitcoin or to ensure that anyone
• 16:04
  who uses Bitcoin does so in a way that continues to feedback
• 16:08
  into the governmental system through simple ways like
• 16:11
  taxation, which obviously that's not going away, unfortunately,
• 16:14
  or through more advanced ways like confiscation or something
• 16:17
  like that, which I don't think there's any signs that that will
• 16:19
  be happening at this point. And even in like the, the early
• 16:22
  legislature that I think Senator Loomis was involved in, it has
• 16:26
  explicit protections around lawfully held Bitcoin.
• 16:31
  But the US government has a lot of say in what is lawful and
• 16:34
  what's not lawful. So again, I, I, I'm not going to
• 16:38
  put my hope for Bitcoin as a revolutionary tool in what the
• 16:42
  US is doing from a Federal Reserve standpoint or even what
• 16:45
  policy makers are saying. But it is helpful to get a gauge
• 16:48
  of kind of what's the environment going to be like.
• 16:50
  And it seems like at least we've been bought four more years of
• 16:52
  time to build, to improve Bitcoin, to improve the tools
• 16:55
  that we built around it, to make wallets better, to make self
• 16:58
  custody easier. And it seems like the this
• 17:00
  administration will be much more friendly and at least be not
• 17:03
  aggressively anti Bitcoin, which is a which is a huge win.
• 17:06
  And that is a huge win for the revolutionary side of Bitcoin,
• 17:09
  if that holds it, if that actually pans out.
• 17:11
  Yeah, 100% and I I think that's you know, but I completely agree
• 17:15
  with you, Seth. Like we just want to be left
• 17:17
  alone. That's what it boils down to.
• 17:19
  You know, I think for the last, what was it, you know, 3 1/2
• 17:25
  years, you know, did an opti was like, like, I was like holding
• 17:30
  him back, you know, but essentially, like we tried so
• 17:35
  hard to just not get into the political discussion.
• 17:39
  But I, I remember the episode that I broke essentially when
• 17:44
  they arrested the samurai wallet developers.
• 17:46
  I got so upset because it was like, wait a second, hold on.
• 17:52
  Like all these banks, HSSBHSBCTD bank get fined for money
• 17:59
  laundering. But you know, for someone that
• 18:01
  writes open source software and he has no control over who uses
• 18:06
  it, they, you know, someone uses that open source and it's a
• 18:09
  small percentage to commit a crime.
• 18:12
  Somehow he's held responsible. And I was like, you know what?
• 18:16
  F that Trump 2024. And then he goes and he's like,
• 18:19
  I'll protect the right to self custody.
• 18:22
  I'll protect the right. I'm gonna free Ross and have fun
• 18:24
  with your bitcoins and I'll stop to CDC's and I'm like, yeah, we
• 18:29
  have no choice but to get behind the orange man because, you
• 18:32
  know, it's like we were forced to throw our hat in the ring.
• 18:36
  I don't think any Bitcoiner would have, you know, willingly
• 18:39
  got into discussing politics or talking about because we weren't
• 18:42
  interested about that. I think Bitcoiners inherently
• 18:45
  want the separation of money and state, but we were kind of
• 18:47
  forced into a corner to kind of speak up and to say something,
• 18:52
  you know. So yeah, I agree.
• 18:54
  I think this is very positive from an investment standpoint,
• 18:57
  from number go up standpoint, from a revolutionary aspect, we
• 19:02
  should be very, very cautious and we have to continue to
• 19:06
  remind people not your keys, not your cheese, not your keys, not
• 19:10
  your Bitcoin. Anyways, Opti, what's your take
• 19:12
  on this before we get to the numbers?
• 19:14
  Yeah, Well, first shout out to the chat because I, I did just
• 19:18
  kind of verify this. It looks like Howard Lutnick is
• 19:21
  being nominated for commerce Secretary.
• 19:24
  So that just came out like, I don't know, right, Right.
• 19:27
  When we started the show. That's nice.
• 19:29
  So you know, not what's it treasurer, secretary or whatever
• 19:33
  it was, he's commerce. But hey, there is the the very
• 19:38
  same signal that there is actual bitcoiners in the Trump
• 19:41
  administration. I think that kind of leads to
• 19:43
  what Seth was saying that at the very least we're going to have
• 19:47
  four years of having like a runway, some cover here versus
• 19:51
  being fought for the last four years.
• 19:52
  So obviously that's going to be great for the Bitcoin industry
• 19:56
  at large. And then just kind of going back
• 19:58
  to the Adam Back tweet. You know, as as a bitcoiner and
• 20:04
  someone that is constantly bull tarted and I'm always you know,
• 20:07
  I, I am like the most bullish person always and, and I do
• 20:11
  always get cake on my face. You know, it does feel like
• 20:14
  $1,000,000 Bitcoin in this bull run does seem a little
• 20:16
  outlandish. But again, I know, I know, I
• 20:19
  know, I know. Hold on hold.
• 20:22
  On hold on, hold on. That's.
• 20:24
  Where I was going, that's where I was going.
• 20:25
  Like you know where things are right now.
• 20:29
  It looking at the chart to like yeah $1,000,000 Bitcoin like
• 20:31
  you, you guys are smoking the opium.
• 20:33
  But if Bitcoin does get announced to be a Bitcoin
• 20:37
  strategic stockpile or strategic reserve in America then it
• 20:41
  really is the mean like this time is different.
• 20:44
  And when you really look at this this leg up of the bull run and
• 20:48
  compare it to the old Bitcoin bull runs, you know we have
• 20:50
  three of them it is lining up very well with 2020 and the 2017
• 20:56
  bull run and we all know what happened in 2021 with the last
• 20:59
  bull run. So if we are entering, entering
• 21:02
  kind of a 2017 S bull run like $1,000,000, Bitcoin really isn't
• 21:08
  like that far fetched of a conversational starter here.
• 21:11
  Like it, it's in the ballpark range of what we've seen Bitcoin
• 21:14
  do in the past. Obviously big numbers.
• 21:16
  Now we're all kind of thinking like, oh, it can't run that
• 21:19
  fast. But that really goes into my
• 21:21
  last point where, you know, we have the heuristic here in
• 21:24
  Bitcoin and Bitcoin price movements and what happens in
• 21:26
  Bitcoin that it usually does the exact opposite of what everyone
• 21:29
  thinks it's going to do. And right now all of us
• 21:32
  Bitcoiners are like, dude, it's going to hit like 100K200K and
• 21:35
  that's it. And that's kind of the consensus
• 21:37
  right now. So hey, I don't know, it does
• 21:39
  feel like this time is different.
• 21:41
  There's a lot of new things on the table.
• 21:43
  The conversation around Bitcoin has fundamentally changed as far
• 21:46
  as I'm concerned, since Larry Fink has came into Bitcoin.
• 21:49
  You know, they're buying their own ETF, they don't just have it
• 21:52
  ETF. And now Bitcoin is being looked
• 21:54
  at as a legitimate thing to have in your portfolio.
• 21:57
  And I think that does fundamentally change if the US
• 22:00
  does add a strategic reserve of stockpile and then states either
• 22:04
  follow suit or front run that like this.
• 22:06
  This does feel different this time around.
• 22:09
  And again, you know, $1,000,000 Bitcoin isn't really that far
• 22:13
  out of the realm of possibility. But you know, what do we know
• 22:16
  it? It's only like a 10X from here.
• 22:18
  Bitcoin's done that before. So I think I'm going to
• 22:21
  fundamentally publicly switch. I'm all for $1,000,000 Bitcoin
• 22:25
  in 2025. Let's go.
• 22:27
  Yeah, absolutely, 100%. All right, everybody, before we
• 22:30
  get into the numbers, the news, we have so much content lined up
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• 26:20
  So you know, I'm assuming, you know, you're going to have
• 26:22
  grandchildren or whatever. Eventually you're going to want
• 26:25
  to pass on your Bitcoin to them, right?
• 26:27
  You imagine that very uncomfortable conversation when
• 26:31
  you're like 80 years old or 90 years old and your grandchildren
• 26:35
  come up to you and they're like grandpapa, you know, I heard you
• 26:38
  bought Bitcoin AT90K Like are you going to pass it on to me?
• 26:41
  And you like tell them you're like no.
• 26:43
  And then they're like, why? It's like because I wrote down
• 26:45
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  Anyways, time of recording the Bitcoin price is $92,780.
• 27:01
  Block height 871,066 sats per dollar 1078 Bitcoin market cap
• 27:10
  We are sitting pretty at 1.84 trillion Bitcoin price and gold
• 27:15
  35.1 oz Bitcoin verse gold market cap 10.012% percentage
• 27:22
  issued 94.21% the client from all time high -.7% Damn whoa
• 27:29
  whoa whoa we're sitting at 92,724 Bitcoin.
• 27:34
  What I hope we break all time highs man we're so close I feel
• 27:37
  it. We could touch it anyways,
• 27:39
  realize monetary inflation continuing to take Fiat
• 27:42
  currencies to absolute school 1.21% the grand scheme of
• 27:47
  things. We're just getting started
• 27:49
  anyways, guys, you guys know, I love talking about the over in
• 27:52
  window and guys, we have not only broken the Overton window,
• 27:57
  we've shattered the Overton window.
• 28:01
  The only thing that's missing in this equation for the full
• 28:05
  circle to complete is Michael Saylor joining Joe Rogan.
• 28:11
  That's the only thing that's missing because he's men.
• 28:13
  He's done the full circuit and he just recently joined PBD.
• 28:17
  If you guys don't follow him, PBD is the guy, the entrepreneur
• 28:22
  content creator behind the Value Tainment YouTube channel.
• 28:27
  Great content. I love consuming it.
• 28:29
  Very great, very good, amazing. But so he joins PBD and Sailor
• 28:36
  said some pretty crazy things which are not crazy to us
• 28:39
  bitcoiners, but I have the clip for you guys and then we'll
• 28:42
  discuss it. Let's check it out.
• 28:43
  Here we go. Was a $90 billion asset class in
• 28:48
  March of 2000 when I was first looking at it and then by August
• 28:52
  it was about $180 billion asset class.
• 28:56
  And right now, four years later, it's $1.8 trillion asset class.
• 29:03
  And I think it's going to 18 trillion, then 180 trillion,
• 29:06
  then it's going to go beyond that.
• 29:07
  So I, I think it's a very simple thing.
• 29:10
  I think Bitcoin is going to grow from point 1% of the money in
• 29:13
  the world to 7% of the money in the world over the next 21
• 29:16
  years. And of course, you should just
• 29:17
  go long and keep buying it. .1% to you said 7%.
• 29:22
  Yeah, it'll, it'll go from like one in 1.8 trillion to $240
• 29:26
  trillion and it'll go up 29% a year.
• 29:29
  Arr That's that's that is my base case.
• 29:31
  And and I've heard you say that in 21 years it's going to be at
• 29:34
  $13 million. That takes you to 13 mana coin.
• 29:37
  13 million a coin. 13 mana coin. At 29 percent.
• 29:41
  Every Bitcoin you don't buy is going to cost you $13 million,
• 29:44
  my friend. Every Bitcoin.
• 29:46
  So let let me let me let me ask this question.
• 29:48
  Your 4 Bitcoin Ferrari is going to be a six $55 million thing.
• 29:55
  Let me, let me ask this question.
• 29:57
  Let me ask this question. So right now your what's micro
• 30:01
  strategy worth today? What's the #74 billion, whatever
• 30:03
  the number was, right? Can you look up micro strategy
• 30:05
  market cap? I'm just curious, OK, $73
• 30:08
  billion today, if you're saying point 1% today, it's going to go
• 30:15
  to 7%, that's 700X, right? So if it's 90,000 today, if I do
• 30:21
  13,000,000 / 90,000, you're expecting to 144 X MicroStrategy
• 30:31
  in 21 years. If I do 144 * 73 billion, you're
• 30:39
  estimating to be a 10 1/2 trillion dollar company in 21
• 30:42
  years. Is that correct?
• 30:44
  Yeah, I guess with that math, yeah, Bitcoin goes from 90,000
• 30:50
  to 13 million. So multiply 13 / 90,000, it gets
• 30:54
  you to a big number. You you were given it, you
• 30:56
  would. No, but Elon's forecasting 30
• 30:58
  trillion so we're still chasing after the robots of the self
• 31:01
  flying cars so. Dude, dude.
• 31:05
  I mean, in wild, what is the $10 trillion company?
• 31:11
  That's insane. I think the market cap of like
• 31:13
  the biggest companies on Earth right now are like about a
• 31:16
  trillion. So I mean, it doesn't sound too
• 31:18
  unbelievable. I think it sounds unbelievable
• 31:21
  for a company like MicroStrategy because before MicroStrategy
• 31:25
  changed, you know, they, they really like started this kind of
• 31:29
  Bitcoin strategy back in 2020. I never forget the 2021 Bitcoin
• 31:34
  conference in Miami where Sailor made his announcement.
• 31:38
  MicroStrategy was essentially was going sideways since the
• 31:41
  90s. They peaked in the 90s and they
• 31:45
  the stock has just been going sideways.
• 31:47
  And then say they even said like, I was thinking about
• 31:48
  retiring because there was just like no way of of it, like, you
• 31:52
  know, whatever. And as soon as they adopted the
• 31:54
  Bitcoin strategy, they have outperformed every company in
• 31:58
  the S&P 500, including, I'm going to pronounce it
• 32:02
  incorrectly because I'm from Miami.
• 32:03
  I don't care, including NVIDIA right.
• 32:06
  So like, I mean, bro, like, you know, the proof is in the work,
• 32:11
  the proof is in the work. And you know, this is I think
• 32:15
  Sailor is going to be one of the wealthiest men in the world and
• 32:17
  I think Micro strategy is going to be one of the largest
• 32:19
  companies in the world just because of the amount of Bitcoin
• 32:22
  that they own. I think, you know, he wanted
• 32:25
  that that 1% of the supply. Now he's at 330,000 Bitcoin.
• 32:30
  I think he's aiming for a million Bitcoin.
• 32:33
  I don't know if he'll get there, but with the current infinite
• 32:36
  money glitch that he's using, he's accumulating an insane
• 32:39
  amount of Bitcoin. He doesn't care that he's buying
• 32:41
  at all time highs. The last 50,000 Bitcoin purchase
• 32:45
  was around this level. He doesn't give a flying F.
• 32:49
  He's like I just want more. Anyway, Seth, what's your take
• 32:52
  on this? Do we do we know if
• 32:55
  MicroStrategy actually does anything other than buy Bitcoin?
• 32:59
  No one knows. Everyone talks about
• 33:02
  MicroStrategy down like buying MicroStrategy stock.
• 33:05
  And it's like all the all the rage in my my Twitter feed or
• 33:08
  Twitter feed, whatever we call it these days.
• 33:10
  I don't really know what they do.
• 33:11
  So it's a fascinating case of this man found his his market
• 33:14
  and influencer niche and he is he's leaned into it.
• 33:19
  Yeah. I mean, as I've said before,
• 33:23
  I've been on the show like I'm not the the price speculation
• 33:25
  guy. So I don't know what to make of
• 33:27
  their wild predictions of what's going to happen with the price.
• 33:30
  But I think an interesting thing with Bitcoin is that you can
• 33:34
  benefit from basically doing nothing and just buying Bitcoin,
• 33:37
  which I don't think it's the right approach.
• 33:38
  And I think that everyone out there watching this, there are
• 33:40
  ways that you can actually contribute back to Bitcoin,
• 33:42
  whether it's just through education or talking about the
• 33:45
  benefits of Bitcoin as an investment, but also really is
• 33:48
  free to money with the people around you.
• 33:50
  And you don't just have to be that guy who who huddles and
• 33:52
  talks about price publicly. But it's been fascinating to
• 33:56
  watch him basically resurrect a zombie company purely by buying
• 34:01
  Bitcoin and contributing nothing else, as far as I know, via his
• 34:05
  company. So it's a, it's a weird setup.
• 34:08
  He's not someone that I particularly admire, but he
• 34:11
  makes some some bold claims. And financially he's made good
• 34:13
  decisions so far. So it's interesting to follow.
• 34:16
  Yeah, I know. And, and just kind of a like,
• 34:18
  obviously we don't have the war chest and the means and the
• 34:21
  resources that someone like Sailor has, right?
• 34:24
  Where he, he, you know, he's able to get it.
• 34:28
  Like the, the, I don't know if you guys know this, but the
• 34:30
  interest rates that he's getting to, to borrow all this absurd
• 34:34
  amount of money to buy Bitcoin. It's like near 0, right?
• 34:37
  So like we don't have that as individuals.
• 34:40
  MicroStrategy is getting these amazing deals.
• 34:42
  He's like leveraging the debt Fiat system to, you know, just
• 34:47
  to say it's to essentially attack it in a way kind of, you
• 34:51
  know, but just a reminder everyone, MicroStrategy does not
• 34:56
  custody their Bitcoin. They have their Bitcoin with
• 34:58
  Coinbase, right? So, you know, in a lot, 8 out of
• 35:01
  the 9 ETFs, that's the same story.
• 35:03
  They all custody their Bitcoin with Coinbase.
• 35:05
  That's not ideal. That is not a good situation.
• 35:09
  A good situation would be not only individuals custodying
• 35:12
  their Bitcoin, but also, you know, institutions and companies
• 35:15
  custody their Bitcoin as well. That's what that's what
• 35:18
  differentiates Bitcoin with, right?
• 35:20
  The ability for you to custody very large amounts and the
• 35:24
  ability for you to send very large amounts as well without
• 35:28
  having to go through a third party.
• 35:30
  Anyways, up to you. What's your take on this man?
• 35:32
  I mean, this is absolutely bonkers.
• 35:35
  And shout out to PBD for having him again.
• 35:37
  Like a normie is hearing this and they're just like holy
• 35:41
  effing, you know, like what the F is going on?
• 35:45
  This is nuts. Or they think he's nuts, but you
• 35:49
  know, a small percentage of them.
• 35:50
  He's making Bitcoiners every time he goes on these mainstream
• 35:54
  podcasters. Yeah, yeah, Well, shouts out to
• 35:57
  PBD, 'cause I think this is what like the third time that
• 36:00
  sailor's been on the pod and you can tell that he likes him and
• 36:04
  that's why he's kind of bringing him back on.
• 36:06
  But I do find it very interesting.
• 36:08
  There's actually two points. The first one I, I found it
• 36:10
  interesting in that podcast that PBD like instantly went to the
• 36:13
  micro strategy stock and being like, wait, it's going to be how
• 36:17
  much, you know, like doing the calculations like, wait, maybe I
• 36:20
  should buy your stock, bro, Cuz like it's going to go up that
• 36:23
  much. But like in that conversation,
• 36:25
  he's kind of, I don't know if he's relegating.
• 36:27
  I, I haven't watched all the sailor PBD podcast.
• 36:29
  So I'm not really sure what PBD stocks are on Bitcoin.
• 36:33
  And I think by that back and forth where sailors like, yeah,
• 36:35
  you're, you know, 4 Bitcoin Ferrari is going to be $55
• 36:38
  million one day. Like, you know, every Bitcoin
• 36:40
  you don't buy is $13 million. So I think there's probably kind
• 36:44
  of some pushback from PBD and he's not fully convinced on
• 36:47
  Bitcoin and he's kind of more like, wait, maybe I just buy
• 36:49
  micro strategy and then that's how I increase my purchasing
• 36:52
  power. So I found that very
• 36:54
  interesting. And then obviously kind of what
• 36:58
  Seth was saying, like, and who knows where the price is
• 37:02
  actually going and who knows where these numbers, whether
• 37:05
  these numbers are correct. But it is very interesting that
• 37:08
  sailors like, yeah, this is like my base bear case here and it
• 37:10
  could blow right past that. And knowing that PBD is one of
• 37:14
  the biggest content creators right now.
• 37:16
  And so by bringing Sailor back, there has to be more people kind
• 37:20
  of waking up to the Bitcoin thesis and being like, oh, maybe
• 37:23
  I need to buy some Bitcoin and, you know, I need to have it as
• 37:26
  part of my investment strategy. Obviously, we think of it more
• 37:29
  than just an investment. We think it's the best money
• 37:31
  ever. You know, it's the perfect money
• 37:33
  as sailors constantly saying, and if things are getting as
• 37:36
  worse as a lot of us speculate, it's going to be maybe the only
• 37:40
  money if the Fiat currency start to actually blow up and the bond
• 37:43
  markets blow up. And so by getting out there, you
• 37:46
  know it, Nico hasn't said it yet, but by sailor going on PBD,
• 37:50
  he is shifting the Overton window and you just love to see
• 37:53
  it. And then I did see this clip
• 37:55
  this morning just kind of scrolling Twitter.
• 37:57
  And personally, when I, when I heard this, I'm like, man, I
• 38:00
  could feel the bullish. I'm like, OK, like I like these
• 38:03
  numbers. Like, OK, keep shilling these
• 38:05
  big numbers out there, sailor. Who knows where the price is
• 38:08
  going. But if that math does play out,
• 38:11
  like that's absolutely insane numbers.
• 38:13
  What, what was it, 144X or 700X? Like that's just mind blowing
• 38:18
  numbers. And I don't think our brains can
• 38:21
  fathom what that actually means, especially as Bitcoiners.
• 38:24
  But I do like that sound bite of every Bitcoin you don't buy is
• 38:28
  basically costing you $13 million.
• 38:31
  That's a strong meme right there.
• 38:33
  And I think we should push that a little harder on a lot of
• 38:35
  people. It's like people don't
• 38:37
  understand the opportunity cost of not buying Bitcoin right now.
• 38:40
  They're kind of just looking at on like a year to year level.
• 38:43
  It's like I could have gained 40% on My Portfolio if I just
• 38:46
  bought Bitcoin. But in the long run, it's like,
• 38:48
  wait, I am losing out on $13 million.
• 38:51
  Like that's some, that's some incredible FOMO right there.
• 38:54
  So you know, Sailor, hey, he's going out there again.
• 38:58
  You know, as Seth said, and I've said this in the past and I did
• 39:00
  kind of get some Flack who really knows what MicroStrategy
• 39:04
  is doing, you know, and it it is kind of like MicroStrategy.
• 39:09
  They're a software company. They are.
• 39:10
  They're like a they're allegedly like a business.
• 39:13
  Allegedly, Yeah, allegedly like an analytics business.
• 39:17
  Analytics company here, but but it is interesting and I, I
• 39:21
  tweeted this before and I think I've said it on the show and
• 39:24
  either it just went under the radar and no one really caught
• 39:26
  what I was saying. But Sess just said the same
• 39:27
  thing where it's like it's almost like MicroStrategy was a
• 39:30
  zombie company until they started to stack Bitcoin and now
• 39:33
  they're what like outperforming the S&P 500.
• 39:36
  And so that signal has to be spreading for a lot of people
• 39:39
  and they have to at least be waking up to this idea that I
• 39:42
  need to add Bitcoin to my company portfolio if I want to
• 39:46
  maintain the lead that I currently have.
• 39:48
  And you know, Sailor, I think is putting on a master class out
• 39:52
  there. Obviously, there is other like
• 39:54
  concerns maybe of just how much Bitcoin he is stacking and is it
• 39:58
  a good thing that one person is stacking that much?
• 40:00
  Obviously, I'm not one here to like to watch someone's pockets.
• 40:04
  But like, I think that signal has to start to catch on.
• 40:08
  And you know, if people want to compete, they have to be
• 40:10
  stacking Bitcoin. And Sailor, his head and
• 40:13
  shoulders above everyone else. He's just winning the game way
• 40:16
  too hard. It seems way too easy for him.
• 40:18
  And it's only a matter. Time personally that I think
• 40:21
  other huge CEOs and you know trillion dollar companies start
• 40:24
  to stack Bitcoin and so the game the game theory not only on a
• 40:27
  nation state level, but a corporate level like it's
• 40:30
  heating up and for us individuals for the retail out
• 40:33
  there, it's like, hey, you know when the when the tide raises
• 40:37
  all boats like it's good thing for us.
• 40:39
  But This is why we have Seth on for the culture today, so we can
• 40:42
  talk about other things besides the price and, you know, privacy
• 40:45
  concerns and how we can ensure that Bitcoin becomes and
• 40:49
  maintains change the freedom money aspects that we really
• 40:51
  love. 100% All right, guys, We have tons of content left for
• 40:55
  you guys, so let's get to the news.
• 40:57
  We'll be right back. Very special shout out to our
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  convenient but also not sacrificing security.
• 43:09
  Again, does not come with Opti, but you will get a discount by
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  using promo code simply. Anyways, let's get to today's
• 43:16
  news. So this is pretty crazy but
• 43:20
  first I saw some people mentioning that they missed the
• 43:25
  meme review in the chat. So before I get to that I found
• 43:29
  this absolutely hilarious. Posted by Kraken and it says my
• 43:33
  employment contract when Bitcoin hits 100K.
• 43:44
  All right, Moon on. Wow, that was loud.
• 43:46
  Isn't that hilarious? Here we go.
• 43:48
  I'm. Glad I'm not wearing headphones.
• 43:56
  Blowing out the audience. Ears.
• 43:58
  I'm sorry guys. Anyway, shout out to the two.
• 44:01
  We just broke 2000 live viewers. If you guys are enjoying the
• 44:04
  show on YouTube on Rumble or X, make sure to smash the like
• 44:08
  button. Consider sharing the video
• 44:10
  really really helps in getting the message out there.
• 44:14
  I found this really, really interesting and perhaps this
• 44:18
  might not be very popular with our audience because our
• 44:22
  audience is obviously we're obviously Bitcoiners, but I will
• 44:26
  say that this is extremely, this is very good for the industry as
• 44:31
  a whole, whether you like it or not.
• 44:33
  Coin Base is by and large by far the largest, you know,
• 44:39
  cryptocurrency exchange in the on the planet.
• 44:43
  They contributed tremendously towards fighting off Elizabeth
• 44:48
  Warren and her goons. Also Satoshi Action Fund by
• 44:52
  Dennis Porter and the Bitcoin Policy Institute, shout out
• 44:55
  David Zell. But Coinbase really, really led
• 44:58
  the charge. You know, they spent a lot of
• 45:00
  time and money in Washington really trying to educate
• 45:03
  regulators and what not. So this is a really, really good
• 45:06
  sign to what Seth was saying in the beginning of the show.
• 45:10
  We don't want any kind of special favors.
• 45:13
  We just want to be left the F alone.
• 45:16
  That's all we're asking for because by just Bitcoin by
• 45:20
  itself, its incentives are are just going to roll today.
• 45:23
  Yes, we might make an all time high before the end of the show.
• 45:26
  We just broke $93,035. You are listening to Simply
• 45:30
  Bitcoin Live smash the like button.
• 45:32
  Anyways, here's the Wall Street Journal article says Trump to
• 45:36
  meet privately with Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong president-elect
• 45:40
  Donald Trump is meeting with the CEO of cryptocurrency exchange
• 45:43
  platform Coinbase Monday, according to people familiar
• 45:46
  with the matter. The duo is expected to discuss
• 45:49
  personal appointments for his second administration.
• 45:52
  The meeting between Trump and Brian Armstrong would mark the
• 45:55
  first time the two have met since Election Day and comes as
• 45:59
  Trump continues to fill out his Cabinet and other senior posts.
• 46:04
  Trump, formerly a crypto skeptic, has turned into a vocal
• 46:08
  supporter of the industry. And then there's a paywall, but
• 46:11
  you guys get the general gist of it.
• 46:14
  Send me the link. Send me the link.
• 46:15
  Maybe I can bypass it? Yeah, here we go.
• 46:18
  Boom. But yeah, I mean, this is kind
• 46:21
  of like a continuation on the trend.
• 46:22
  And then the other topic that I want to bring up on the news
• 46:25
  segment is this one, which I find absolutely effing hilarious
• 46:31
  because if we did this, but we would go to jail.
• 46:34
  So the Pentagon fails 7th audit in a row.
• 46:39
  And let's get some more of the details.
• 46:41
  The Pentagon on Friday failed its 7th audit in a row, with the
• 46:44
  nation's largest government agency still unable to fully
• 46:48
  account for its more than $824 billion budget, though officials
• 46:53
  stress they're making good progress towards a clean audit
• 46:57
  in 2020. Hey, could you imagine
• 46:59
  responding to the IRS with that response?
• 47:02
  Just like, hey, you know what? But we messed up.
• 47:05
  It's an $824,000,000 audit. But we promise on the 7th year
• 47:12
  we'll get that right, right. Like this isn't, it's rules for
• 47:15
  thee but not for me, right? So anyways, you know, this is
• 47:20
  supposedly what Elon and Vivec are going in there to fix.
• 47:24
  We shall see. They are taking on the
• 47:26
  administrative state, which is fueled by the Fiat money
• 47:29
  printer. Let's see if they're successful.
• 47:31
  But I mean, again, it's kind of like a double standard.
• 47:34
  And it feels honestly, you know, as long as governments have the
• 47:38
  money printer it it's like they've taken their populist
• 47:42
  hostage. And I'll quote the book to
• 47:45
  sovereign individual because I think it's very applicable to
• 47:48
  this specifically the Internet. So the the government sees their
• 47:54
  citizens as tax cattle. The Internet has given them
• 47:57
  wings, right? And essentially I think that's
• 47:59
  what's happening. We've seen the disintermediation
• 48:02
  of information over the last, you know, five years or so.
• 48:07
  It's been bonkers, right? And look at how much they've
• 48:10
  done to try to fight it. Look at how much they've tried
• 48:12
  to censor platforms like X, platforms like YouTube
• 48:16
  platforms. They've tried to stifle speech,
• 48:19
  which again, you know, according to the First Amendment is
• 48:22
  illegal, right? But look at what happened with
• 48:24
  the Twitter Files. It became public that the that
• 48:28
  elements of the US government were colluding with private
• 48:30
  companies to censor certain types of political speech.
• 48:35
  Right now, imagine if they imagine if they get their hands
• 48:38
  on central bank digital currencies, are you saying that
• 48:40
  they're not gonna use that same power against their citizens?
• 48:44
  And then at the same time, they want us to report every $600.00
• 48:48
  transaction, but the Pentagon is failing $800 million worth of
• 48:54
  audits for seven years in a row. And their response is we'll try
• 48:58
  better next year. We're getting close to figuring
• 49:00
  it out. Like, that's a double standard.
• 49:02
  That isn't a government represented by the people for
• 49:05
  the people. That's a government by the
• 49:07
  government for the government, which I would say is the
• 49:09
  definition of tyranny. Anyways, I want to get Seth's
• 49:12
  opinion on this and then Opti. Yeah.
• 49:15
  I mean, it's, it's just a ridiculous example of how the
• 49:18
  military industrial complex that unfortunately we built in the US
• 49:23
  and offloaded to so many other countries around the world has a
• 49:28
  massive, a massive amount of control around the government
• 49:32
  and around the the political system as well.
• 49:35
  Because so much money gets poured into that military
• 49:38
  industrial complex that they, they can just have revolving
• 49:42
  door policies where they keep moving politicians into their,
• 49:45
  into their, their businesses. They're the defense companies
• 49:48
  that are making hundreds of billions of dollars every year.
• 49:51
  And that, that report was $824 billion budget that they haven't
• 49:55
  been able to find for seven straight audits.
• 49:57
  And it's, it, it is wild because especially into this last
• 50:00
  administration, there was a huge push to grow the IRS because
• 50:03
  they weren't happy that they were getting enough taxes from,
• 50:06
  from US average individuals with things like the ridiculous
• 50:09
  $600.00 limit. And, and when we're sending
• 50:12
  money on Venmo or PayPal and they're wanting to control every
• 50:15
  last dollar and sent that we are, we are moving that we are
• 50:19
  sending back and forth that we are using to buy used stuff off
• 50:23
  of other people on Facebook marketplace or whatever.
• 50:25
  Like these these ridiculous platforms where they understand
• 50:28
  that while the Internet is supposed to give us wings when
• 50:32
  it doesn't have proper privacy guarantees, it actually just
• 50:35
  ends up giving the government better, better chains to put
• 50:40
  around us if we don't push back. And that's one of the one of the
• 50:43
  reasons why I think Bitcoin as freedom money is so important
• 50:47
  because it it should give us that freedom back.
• 50:50
  It should give us freedom from really tyrannical oppression
• 50:53
  that we we have right now, even though in the US we're
• 50:56
  politically quite free. And I, I know that I'm very
• 50:59
  blessed to be in the US because we do have a lot of protections
• 51:01
  that other countries don't and a lot of financial privilege that
• 51:04
  other countries don't. But the, the government is
• 51:07
  starting to use more and more of the tools that they have to, to
• 51:10
  repress dissent and to to get tighter control of the financial
• 51:14
  system. So Bitcoin as freedom money is
• 51:16
  more vital than ever. And these kind of tax insanity
• 51:19
  show that because we just, we don't have control over the
• 51:22
  government, the control the government generally has control
• 51:24
  over us, unfortunately. 100% I think that will always be the
• 51:28
  case. As long as governments have the
• 51:30
  money printer, the incentive isn't there.
• 51:33
  The incentive for a lot of these bureaucrats and politicians is
• 51:37
  to get as close as humanly possible to the money printer.
• 51:40
  They don't need to do good by their constituents, right?
• 51:43
  But if you separate money from state, their only form of
• 51:46
  raising revenue is via direct taxation, right?
• 51:50
  And that changes the conversation.
• 51:51
  You're going to be a lot nicer to, you know, the the asks of
• 51:56
  your constituents versus kind of finding this sly roundabout way
• 52:00
  to tax them via currency debasement, right?
• 52:03
  So very, very kind of interesting conversation.
• 52:05
  Anyways, I do want to pass it on to Opti guys.
• 52:08
  By the way, we are on the verge of making an all time high.
• 52:12
  I have Satoshi the Bitcoin Chicken ready to clock he's.
• 52:16
  Right next to Miko, I think at least Trading View is telling me
• 52:19
  we did. Just break it.
• 52:21
  We did. Is it confirmed?
• 52:22
  It's running. I can see it right here.
• 52:24
  It's running. It's.
• 52:25
  Right, we're at 93,500. 93638 So that's all we have.
• 52:31
  Broken all time. We have broken all time highs.
• 52:38
  I'm going to put it on the on the ticker.
• 52:41
  Congratulations everybody. You've you've earned your
• 52:44
  stripes. Anyways, Opti, what's your take
• 52:47
  on this? Yeah.
• 52:48
  Well, First off, I'm going to start with the audit.
• 52:50
  Obviously they don't want to audit that balance because you
• 52:55
  know, they they do well with the lack of transparency.
• 52:58
  But when you do compare it to kind of what El Salvador is
• 53:02
  doing and you know, you can see at least on the blockchain,
• 53:05
  yeah, there there's some, some some trust, I guess there that
• 53:10
  they are actually stacking all that Bitcoin, etcetera, that
• 53:13
  it's a totally different paradigm.
• 53:14
  You know, if America was as transparent as the Bitcoin
• 53:18
  blockchain, I think it would be a totally different
• 53:21
  conversation. And you know, personally, as the
• 53:23
  reigning tinfoil hat guy on the show, I don't think they want us
• 53:26
  to be transparent with their, with their audit books.
• 53:29
  And, and there's that, but the first, the first kind of story
• 53:33
  about Trump meeting Brian Armstrong.
• 53:36
  Like, look, guys, I am not a fan of Coinbase.
• 53:39
  I, I think Brian Armstrong has been actively fighting Bitcoin,
• 53:44
  you know, the, the real Bitcoin here for a lot of years.
• 53:47
  And so personally, I'm not a fan of Brian Armstrong.
• 53:50
  But with that being said, I think those conversations are a
• 53:54
  good thing. And, and Trump talking to people
• 53:56
  within the industry is a good thing, though I am a little
• 53:59
  concerned that, you know, Trump's probably going to get a
• 54:01
  shit coin shell from Brian Armstrong.
• 54:04
  But I mean, hey, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe Trump's just
• 54:08
  asking Brian Armstrong to to put what's a world liberty coin on
• 54:13
  on. You imagine that conversation
• 54:16
  like. All right, Brian, listen, it's
• 54:18
  gonna be amazing. Pump my bags.
• 54:20
  Rock coin, trump coin, It's gonna be amazing, right?
• 54:24
  Like like for sure that, but like I would say this is this is
• 54:28
  what I would say like I'm, I'm personally a free market
• 54:31
  maximalist and I and I don't because I've seen this with a
• 54:35
  lot of the the Bitcoin community, which is kind of like
• 54:37
  this idea of like thinking that the government is going to step
• 54:40
  in and hoping that they're going to choose what the winners and
• 54:44
  losers are in terms of cryptos. Like no, no, no, no, like let
• 54:49
  the free market do what the free market does best.
• 54:51
  We don't need government intervention.
• 54:53
  That's my take. And perhaps that's an unpopular
• 54:56
  take and also another unpopular take with some bitcoiners that I
• 54:59
  have too, is like, yes, we are Bitcoin only.
• 55:02
  That's what we we are simply Bitcoin.
• 55:04
  However, if you want to buy whatever you want to buy, go so
• 55:09
  be it. That's all you like.
• 55:11
  That is completely your decision.
• 55:13
  You're an adult and you have every right to do so.
• 55:17
  That's another kind of like, you know, cuz I've seen a lot of
• 55:20
  Maxis on Twitter. It's like you are, you know,
• 55:23
  stupid if you buy this cryptocurrency.
• 55:25
  Like let people decide what they want to do.
• 55:27
  It's their money, right? Like that's totally your
• 55:29
  prerogative. So you know, I would say let's
• 55:33
  let the free market do what the free market does best.
• 55:36
  We believe that Bitcoin has the best incentives as the best.
• 55:40
  You know you know, it's just the best 1.
• 55:42
  So let's let the free market decide and we'll see what
• 55:45
  happens. Let's see, let's see where the
• 55:46
  dust settles, right? Anyways, guys before.
• 55:49
  Before you move on, take off the ticket because we're not at all
• 55:51
  time high anymore all. Right, I'm going to put away
• 55:54
  it's. At 93.3 now so hey it was good,
• 55:58
  well allowed. It was a nice little Wick.
• 56:00
  It was a nice little Wick. Anyways, guys, before we move on
• 56:03
  to culture segment, I do want to give a shout out to our
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  sponsors. Guys.
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  So the best way to support them, support, support us is check out
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  All right, everybody, let's hit the culture.
• 58:16
  All right everybody, I do want to give a shout out to our
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  sponsor, the Orange Pull app, the Bitcoin social layer Stack
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  friends who stack SAT join the 13,629 bitcoiners that are
• 58:28
  currently on the app. So what is the Orange Pull app?
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  The Orange Pull app is the perfect resource for when you're
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  on the go or perhaps you're in your city and you don't know any
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  The Orange Pull app has a really clever geographical feature and
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  close to you, allowing you to send them a message and to make
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  conference and perhaps you don't know anything, you don't know
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  what to do that night you pull up the Orange pull up, it'll
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  happening as well. Check out the orange pull up
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  today by scanning the QR code on your screen or checking the link
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  in the video description. Anyways, opening up the
• 59:15
  conversation. Want to take advantage of Seth
• 59:18
  for privacy being on the show today, Seth has contributed a
• 59:24
  enormous amount of not only content, but also just work for
• 59:28
  advocating for privacy in Bitcoin.
• 59:31
  He's also a supporter of Monero as well, which is like the
• 59:35
  quintessential privacy cryptocurrency also.
• 59:40
  So Seth, welcome to the show. Happy to have you on today.
• 59:43
  And you're currently with Cakewallet.
• 59:45
  So guys, if you want to check out Cakewallet, go to
• 59:48
  cakewallet.com today. Yeah, man, thank y'all, thank
• 59:53
  y'all so much for having me on. It's been fun.
• 59:54
  I I, I always just love the the light hearted approach here on
• 59:58
  simply Bitcoin. So it's just always an absolute
• 1:00:00
  blast to be able to, to stay with you all through this.
• 1:00:02
  I got to be here for all time high.
• 1:00:04
  So it's a good, a good day to be jumping in, but they're really
• 1:00:07
  excited to chat more about privacy as always.
• 1:00:09
  I know it's it's kind of a meme. It's at this point that whenever
• 1:00:12
  I'm on something I'm either talking about privacy or now,
• 1:00:15
  since silent payments have been the big thing for me over the
• 1:00:18
  past couple of years. Everyone just assumes that I'm
• 1:00:20
  going to talk about silent payments, which I will a little
• 1:00:23
  bit, yeah. Absolutely.
• 1:00:24
  I want to hear about that. That sounds like a great idea.
• 1:00:27
  So where should we start this off?
• 1:00:28
  Opti, I'm going to pass it on to you.
• 1:00:29
  Yeah, I mean, Seth just brought up privacy.
• 1:00:32
  We do have, you know, Seth has a podcast as well.
• 1:00:35
  And there's, you know, a new kind of conversation.
• 1:00:38
  It's an old conversation that is starting to rear its head again.
• 1:00:41
  But let's start with privacy first and foremost, since it's
• 1:00:43
  already been brought up. Seth, as someone that works in
• 1:00:46
  privacy, it's literally in your name.
• 1:00:48
  You know, Seth, for privacy. What is the current state for
• 1:00:51
  privacy and what and what are you concerned?
• 1:00:53
  Like what are you watching and and where is your head at in
• 1:00:55
  regards to privacy on Bitcoin? Yeah.
• 1:00:59
  I mean, when we when we talk about privacy on Bitcoin, I
• 1:01:02
  think there's a lot of reasons for hope and optimism and a lot
• 1:01:07
  of reasons for concern as well. So this is, I feel like kind of
• 1:01:09
  always where we've been in the, in the Bitcoin ecosystem,
• 1:01:12
  because there's a broad set of people deciding what should and
• 1:01:16
  should not be included in Bitcoin, A broad set of people
• 1:01:19
  developing around Bitcoin, researching new approaches that
• 1:01:22
  can be taken. And so we always get a a lot of
• 1:01:25
  different routes that can happen, a lot of different
• 1:01:28
  paths. And we've come to a lot of no
• 1:01:31
  pun intended kind of forks in the road on what what path we're
• 1:01:35
  going to take forward for Bitcoin, especially when it
• 1:01:37
  comes to whether or not it can be free to money for the
• 1:01:40
  individual. And I think when we're when
• 1:01:41
  we're talking privacy, the the most exciting thing that's been
• 1:01:46
  happening recently, Nico hit on the samurai wallet shut down in
• 1:01:50
  April. And, and that we've covered
• 1:01:51
  quite a bit today already that there's been just kind of a
• 1:01:53
  broad crackdown on privacy in Bitcoin and the broader
• 1:01:56
  cryptocurrency space over the last really 12 months.
• 1:02:00
  But in the wake of that, people have been trying to figure out
• 1:02:03
  where, where do we go next? And thankfully one of the cool
• 1:02:06
  tools that has has happened, it was introduced into the into the
• 1:02:09
  space as a proposal a couple of years ago, but it has finally
• 1:02:12
  become a reality actually in Cakewallet.
• 1:02:14
  It's one of the reasons why I was so excited to jump in and
• 1:02:17
  and join the Cakewallet team a couple months ago was that
• 1:02:20
  silent payments is here. And silent payments is one of
• 1:02:23
  these beautiful things because it doesn't require any changes
• 1:02:25
  to Bitcoin. And I know we're going to talk a
• 1:02:27
  little bit about like this concept of ossification or
• 1:02:30
  potential upgrades to Bitcoin later on in the segment.
• 1:02:33
  But what's really amazing about silent payments is that they're
• 1:02:37
  really a user experience improvement.
• 1:02:39
  They're a, a Bitcoin address type that you can use, you can
• 1:02:42
  share with anybody. You can post on your Twitter
• 1:02:45
  bio, you can post in the GitHub, read me, and anyone can pay you
• 1:02:48
  using a Bitcoin wallet. And when they pay you, they
• 1:02:52
  can't see anything but other other payments you've received
• 1:02:54
  in the past. Contrary to like if you just
• 1:02:56
  paste a normal Bitcoin address into your Twitter bio, yeah,
• 1:02:59
  maybe people can send you some Bitcoin, but they also can just
• 1:03:02
  copy and paste that into them and pulled out space and see all
• 1:03:04
  of the funds you've received in the past.
• 1:03:06
  Silent payments work differently.
• 1:03:07
  So you can have one address. You don't have to change it.
• 1:03:10
  You don't have to be worried about address reuse.
• 1:03:13
  You can use that broadly and still have good privacy because
• 1:03:16
  it makes sure that no one can reuse addresses and no one can
• 1:03:18
  just quickly copy and paste that address into a blockchain
• 1:03:21
  explorer and see what transactions you received in the
• 1:03:24
  past. It doesn't fix all Bitcoin
• 1:03:25
  privacy issues, but it's one of those rare things that actually
• 1:03:28
  is a user experience improvement as well.
• 1:03:31
  Because for those of us who who have been in the space for a
• 1:03:34
  long time, we're used to the weirdness of when you hit
• 1:03:37
  receive in your Bitcoin wallet, you get a new address every
• 1:03:39
  time. Or maybe when you actually
• 1:03:41
  receive a transaction, you get a new address the next time you
• 1:03:43
  hit receive. And that becomes normal for us.
• 1:03:46
  But if you hand someone a Bitcoin wallet today, what are
• 1:03:49
  they used to? They're used to PayPal, to cash
• 1:03:51
  app, to Venmo, where they have this, the static address or
• 1:03:54
  username, and they can receive funds there if they don't have
• 1:03:57
  to worry about it doesn't change.
• 1:03:58
  It all goes in the same place. And this, this user experience
• 1:04:02
  hurdle of not raising addresses is definitely a big one to get
• 1:04:05
  over and one of the ways that silent payments really helps.
• 1:04:08
  So that's been a blast at Cakewallet.
• 1:04:10
  They were the first to implement silent payments and it's right
• 1:04:12
  now the only, the only Bitcoin wallet that has silent payment
• 1:04:16
  support for both sending and receiving.
• 1:04:18
  So it's a really, really great way to try out what is kind of
• 1:04:21
  the the latest and greatest tech in privacy on Bitcoin.
• 1:04:25
  As for kind of like that's kind of the optimism right now.
• 1:04:27
  That's one of the really cool tools that's available at the
• 1:04:29
  moment. But when we talk about kind of
• 1:04:33
  where am I more kind of hesitant or concerned is something that I
• 1:04:37
  think will segue well into another topic of right now
• 1:04:40
  there's a lot of hesitancy in the Bitcoin space to make any
• 1:04:44
  changes to Bitcoin, whether those are for self custody,
• 1:04:47
  whether those are for privacy, There's a, a broad narrative, I
• 1:04:50
  wouldn't say prevailing narrative, but there's at least
• 1:04:52
  a vocal minority that are firmly against any changes happening to
• 1:04:56
  Bitcoin and want to say that Bitcoin is perfect right now as
• 1:04:59
  it is. But the the concern for me is
• 1:05:01
  that we're really at kind of a fork in the road right now.
• 1:05:03
  Bitcoin can support the self custody of everyone who uses
• 1:05:07
  Bitcoin today and probably a lot more people if we're honest.
• 1:05:11
  Most people who buy Bitcoin aren't actually using Bitcoin
• 1:05:13
  anyways. They're using an ETF, they're
• 1:05:14
  using an exchange. But what what will happen
• 1:05:19
  eventually is if enough people do come to Bitcoin and they want
• 1:05:22
  to take self custody, that's going to be pretty much
• 1:05:25
  impossible because of the way that that Bitcoin handles
• 1:05:28
  scaling right now. Limited block size, which has
• 1:05:30
  benefits for fees, which we need long term for security,
• 1:05:34
  ultimately limits what we can do with scaling.
• 1:05:36
  And lightning has not proved to be the the self sovereign
• 1:05:40
  scaling solution that we initially thought it was.
• 1:05:44
  And so we're we're coming up against this idea of that, that
• 1:05:47
  not too far in the future, if people actually come to Bitcoin
• 1:05:49
  and use Bitcoin not too far in the future, it's going to be
• 1:05:52
  very difficult to self custody and actually hold their own
• 1:05:55
  coins. Maybe they can hold keys to E
• 1:05:57
  cash or something and then trust a custodian.
• 1:06:00
  Maybe they just use a Coinbase account, but that's not actually
• 1:06:02
  using Bitcoin and that's not going to enable the censorship
• 1:06:04
  resistance and the privacy and that the freedom money aspects
• 1:06:07
  that people can have. So we're we're coming to a fork
• 1:06:09
  in the road where self custody is something that we need to
• 1:06:12
  find ways to improve. And it's not clear how to do
• 1:06:14
  that without improving the Bitcoin protocol itself.
• 1:06:17
  And we're also coming to a fork in the road where privacy in
• 1:06:20
  Bitcoin is extremely difficult today, almost impossible.
• 1:06:24
  And this has gotten much harder in the crackdown on privacy
• 1:06:27
  since April of this year, where we saw Samurai Wallet get
• 1:06:32
  arrested and indicted and all of their servers shut down.
• 1:06:34
  South. Samurai Wallet's approach to
• 1:06:35
  privacy doesn't work anymore. We saw Tornado Cash developers
• 1:06:39
  on Etherium who are building a very powerful privacy tool on
• 1:06:42
  the Etherium blockchain. Whatever you think of Etherium,
• 1:06:44
  you can set that aside. But just think about this was a
• 1:06:46
  privacy tool that was actually very decentralized and useful.
• 1:06:50
  And the developers behind that have been arrested.
• 1:06:52
  Case still ongoing in the US in the Netherlands, one of the
• 1:06:55
  developers for Tornado Cash got sentenced to a 12 years in jail
• 1:07:00
  basically another premise that because he knew bad people could
• 1:07:02
  use the tool at some point he was liable for that and so that
• 1:07:06
  crackdown has driven people in Ethereum to look for better
• 1:07:08
  privacy. Samurai wallet being shut down,
• 1:07:10
  Wasabi wallet shutting down their own services as kind of
• 1:07:14
  part of the the ripple effects of the Samurai Wallet
• 1:07:16
  indictment. Lightning wallet providers
• 1:07:19
  leaving the US, Lightning service providers leaving the
• 1:07:21
  US. Like Phoenix.
• 1:07:23
  There's been a big shift that made it far more difficult to
• 1:07:27
  achieve privacy in Bitcoin. And that's been hard for me as
• 1:07:29
  someone who deeply loves privacy and wants to onboard people to
• 1:07:32
  privacy tools in Bitcoin as I don't have a great
• 1:07:34
  recommendation right now. And a lot of the solutions to
• 1:07:36
  improve privacy on Bitcoin would require an openness to changing
• 1:07:39
  the Bitcoin protocol. Now I'm not advocating that we
• 1:07:42
  make Bitcoin Monero because a lot of the trade-offs that
• 1:07:46
  happened with Manero would be very hard for a lot of people in
• 1:07:49
  the Bitcoin space to stomach. But there are clear ways that we
• 1:07:52
  can improve privacy on Bitcoin using things like covenants that
• 1:07:55
  are broad proposal for fixing self custody as well.
• 1:07:58
  We can build really cool privacy tools like coin pools with
• 1:08:02
  covenants where you can essentially share UTX OS with
• 1:08:05
  other people but have full ownership of your amount of that
• 1:08:08
  UTXO, where you can always exit on chain if you want.
• 1:08:11
  But all the payments that you make are impossible for anyone
• 1:08:13
  to know about except you and the person you're paying because
• 1:08:15
  they're happening within this pool or you're paying them.
• 1:08:18
  Using this kind of virtual UTXO covenants also would improve
• 1:08:22
  technologies like Arc and Spark, which also have some better
• 1:08:24
  privacy guarantees. So there's there's a lot that
• 1:08:27
  can be done, but right now in the Bitcoin community, we have
• 1:08:30
  to decide what is our end goal. Is our end goal to keep Bitcoin
• 1:08:34
  as it is because numbers going up to focus on institutional
• 1:08:38
  investors, federal reserves to focus on these number go up
• 1:08:41
  aspects or while that's happening, I don't think the
• 1:08:45
  changes to Bitcoin are going to stop that from happening.
• 1:08:47
  While that's happening, keeping our eye on what do we need to
• 1:08:50
  do, whether it's just education or whether it's changes to the
• 1:08:53
  Bitcoin protocol or whether it's funding development of better
• 1:08:57
  privacy tools around Bitcoin, What do we need to do to keep
• 1:08:59
  the freedom money angle open for Bitcoin?
• 1:09:03
  And I think that that has to be top of mind and we can't let
• 1:09:07
  what seems like a more favorable administration in the US, which
• 1:09:10
  usually trickles down into other countries as well.
• 1:09:12
  We can't let that disguise the need for freedom money or to to
• 1:09:17
  hide the the fact that nation states are going to want to
• 1:09:21
  prevent self custody and financial privacy long term
• 1:09:25
  because those two things are the antithesis to their control.
• 1:09:28
  They shut down the levers that governments have and they give
• 1:09:30
  power back to the individual. So I think we need to expect
• 1:09:33
  that there will be pushed back even if this administration is
• 1:09:35
  good. Maybe that buys us four years,
• 1:09:37
  but we need to be thinking far into the future and thinking
• 1:09:40
  about how we can make Bitcoin better today.
• 1:09:42
  And thankfully there are some really cool tools like I talked
• 1:09:44
  about like silent payments, which are invaluable for the on
• 1:09:47
  chain side. They're up a piece.
• 1:09:48
  They don't fix privacy in Bitcoin, but they're an
• 1:09:50
  important piece of privacy. That's something you can try out
• 1:09:53
  and take wallet today and then things on the Lightning
• 1:09:56
  ecosystem like Bolt 12, which are really, really valuable
• 1:09:58
  privacy improvement as well. So there are some ways we can
• 1:10:01
  improve privacy today and broader adoption of those is
• 1:10:03
  critical. But we also need to be thinking,
• 1:10:05
  how do we make these privacy tools accessible to the average
• 1:10:08
  person and how do we build better privacy tools that give
• 1:10:10
  us better on chain privacy, better privacy and Lightning, an
• 1:10:14
  easier point of access to the Lightning network for the
• 1:10:17
  average individual without getting up custody.
• 1:10:19
  All these things are really top of mind.
• 1:10:20
  So there's there's a lot of different things to break into
• 1:10:22
  there. But that's kind of the the
• 1:10:24
  thought process that that I've been going through lately and
• 1:10:27
  interviewing Lop on the Opt out podcast was really fascinating
• 1:10:30
  to get his perspective on how he views this kind of like ossify
• 1:10:33
  or don't ossify view. But yeah, those are the kind of
• 1:10:36
  top of mind things for me right now, guys.
• 1:10:38
  Incredible, man, it's bro that wow, that was that had so many
• 1:10:42
  questions, man. So and it's all this in the in
• 1:10:45
  the chat. First of all, all right, Seth, I
• 1:10:48
  apologize because just ask to do it.
• 1:10:52
  He did break another all time high while Seth was doing his
• 1:10:55
  thing. Satoshi's knocking things over
• 1:10:57
  Satoshi the Bitcoin chicken. But OK, so Seth, this is this is
• 1:11:01
  very, very important, right? And in terms of scaling all the
• 1:11:04
  aspects, what are the what's the counter argument to this?
• 1:11:08
  Like the ossification camp? Why are they not on board with
• 1:11:14
  what you suggested? I think generally the the
• 1:11:18
  thought process there, and I know you were in the Ghana and
• 1:11:21
  you saw you saw Jimmy Song and Jameson Lop debate this.
• 1:11:24
  So that's a really good video to go look back on.
• 1:11:26
  I don't know if it's on YouTube. I know that they posted on
• 1:11:28
  Twitter at least, but he gave a lot of kind of the arguments
• 1:11:32
  that are common in the the ossification camp.
• 1:11:35
  And just as a primer ossifies a really weird word.
• 1:11:37
  I kind of hate that it's kind of the term that we use around this
• 1:11:40
  concept, but basically all that means is naturally long term,
• 1:11:44
  things like Bitcoin that are technologies, and especially
• 1:11:47
  things like Bitcoin that are technologies that are also money
• 1:11:50
  are going to get harder and harder to change.
• 1:11:52
  So there will be this natural ossification or this natural
• 1:11:55
  hardening of the protocol where it's going to get more and more
• 1:11:58
  difficult to make changes as we go along.
• 1:12:00
  We've already seen that in massive ways since I got into
• 1:12:02
  the space in 2017. There seem to be a real appetite
• 1:12:05
  for making improvements and Taproot was one of those, even
• 1:12:07
  though it hasn't panned out to be quite as much as I think it
• 1:12:10
  was initially promised. But there was this appetite for
• 1:12:14
  changes. But even without a prevailing
• 1:12:16
  narrative of we should not change Bitcoin, it's gotten
• 1:12:18
  harder and harder to change Bitcoin because it's just so
• 1:12:20
  many more people participating in the network, participating in
• 1:12:24
  the ecosystem. And so when we look at like,
• 1:12:27
  what's the, the main idea behind the, the Ossify Now camp, it's
• 1:12:31
  really that Bitcoin is serving this serving this goal of
• 1:12:36
  digital gold, which has become, I think the prevailing
• 1:12:39
  narrative, especially in the West around Bitcoin, not
• 1:12:41
  globally, but especially in the West around Bitcoin has been
• 1:12:44
  that digital gold is the key use for Bitcoin and that it's
• 1:12:47
  serving that purpose. And that nation state adoption
• 1:12:50
  is, is evidence of that. And that if it's already serving
• 1:12:54
  that purpose, we don't want to introduce anything that might
• 1:12:58
  affect that, that might harm that use case as digital gold.
• 1:13:01
  And so most of the argument that I see is essentially unknown
• 1:13:06
  unknowns. We don't want to introduce
• 1:13:07
  anything that might do something that we don't know about.
• 1:13:11
  And so it's this, this concept of if there are unknown
• 1:13:14
  unknowns, if we can't be 100% sure that nobody can use this to
• 1:13:17
  do something that we don't like or that this couldn't affect
• 1:13:20
  Bitcoin as digital gold in subway, we should never make any
• 1:13:23
  changes. And that's the crux of the
• 1:13:25
  argument. Obviously that's a little bit of
• 1:13:26
  an oversimplification, but that's the crux of the argument
• 1:13:29
  is that we don't want to harm this digital gold narrative that
• 1:13:32
  we have going right now. And we want to make sure that if
• 1:13:36
  we're going to change anything in Bitcoin, it's just to
• 1:13:37
  preserve that. Things like fixing bugs that
• 1:13:40
  that are inevitably going to need to be fixed in Bitcoin.
• 1:13:43
  Things like quantum resistant cryptography that we would need
• 1:13:46
  to protect the the idea of self custody.
• 1:13:49
  Those things are the only things that are usually kind of seen
• 1:13:51
  within the realm of like, yeah, we should do those because
• 1:13:53
  obviously we want Bitcoin to continue to exist in a, a post
• 1:13:55
  quantum world or in a world past 2140 when this time spent time
• 1:13:59
  stamp bug would break Bitcoin. But that's the that's the
• 1:14:02
  prevailing view. And that's kind of the the view
• 1:14:04
  to to straw man and the view that that I push back against.
• 1:14:08
  And I agree with Jameson Lopp on pushing back against because I
• 1:14:10
  think when we just look at Bitcoin as digital gold, to me
• 1:14:14
  that's not freedom money. That's another equity.
• 1:14:17
  That's another thing that I can invest in.
• 1:14:18
  That's another thing for my 4O1K.
• 1:14:21
  And that's great. That is a great fitting use
• 1:14:23
  case, especially for me as a financially privileged Westerner
• 1:14:27
  where I am, I have spare capital that I can put into Bitcoin and
• 1:14:31
  that I can benefit from. But when we look at the scope of
• 1:14:34
  what Bitcoin can be, I think digital gold is this tiny piece.
• 1:14:37
  When it comes to actual human freedom, yes, that's a big piece
• 1:14:40
  financially, But when it comes to actual human freedom, that's
• 1:14:43
  a tiny piece. And the need much more broadly
• 1:14:46
  is not something to put my money into and hope that it
• 1:14:49
  appreciates versus Fiat over time.
• 1:14:51
  But the need for those people is that they need money that they
• 1:14:53
  can actually use today, that their governments can't control,
• 1:14:56
  that their governments can't inflate away.
• 1:14:57
  But I would argue that's different than digital gold and
• 1:15:00
  money that they can use peer-to-peer to transact, to
• 1:15:02
  build circular economies and escape the broken Fiat system
• 1:15:05
  around them. But escaping the Fiat system is
• 1:15:07
  not putting money into a four O 1K that's in a Bitcoin ETF and
• 1:15:10
  having more Fiat at the end of the day that feeds the Fiat
• 1:15:12
  system. So to me that the critical thing
• 1:15:15
  is making sure that when we're talking about like adoption in
• 1:15:19
  Africa, we're talking about adoption in South America, that
• 1:15:22
  these people are actually able to use Bitcoin and not just use
• 1:15:25
  a custodian, not just use the wallet of Satoshi, not just use
• 1:15:29
  an E cash where someone that they don't know around the world
• 1:15:32
  is holding their Bitcoin for them.
• 1:15:34
  But actually be able to use Bitcoin day-to-day and use it as
• 1:15:37
  an escape from, from Fiat slavery, from governmental
• 1:15:40
  oppression, to use it to fund journalists and dissidents to
• 1:15:44
  push back on corrupt governments.
• 1:15:45
  That's the huge thing for me. And that's why if we get stuck
• 1:15:49
  in this, this digital gold narrative, we lose sight of the,
• 1:15:53
  the human freedom aspects of this and to add one more thing
• 1:15:56
  and then, and then we can, we can move on.
• 1:15:59
  It's been fascinating to see as I've gotten more and more
• 1:16:01
  involved in the Human Rights Foundation and talking to far
• 1:16:03
  more journalists and dissidents, talking to more people around
• 1:16:06
  the globe on how they're actually using cryptocurrency
• 1:16:10
  for freedom. They're not using Bitcoin,
• 1:16:13
  they're not using Bitcoin, they're using Tether.
• 1:16:15
  They're using things that are centralized and controlled
• 1:16:17
  because what they need is low transaction fees and they need
• 1:16:19
  stability. And I'm not saying Bitcoin needs
• 1:16:21
  to be a stable coin or anything like that, but just that when we
• 1:16:24
  talk about freedom money, a lot of the things that people need
• 1:16:26
  are not being served by Bitcoin. And I think we're we're in
• 1:16:30
  danger of freezing Bitcoin as it is today, of not making any
• 1:16:33
  changes, not making it easier to self custody, not making it
• 1:16:36
  easier to gain privacy. And we're opting in by doing
• 1:16:40
  that to this future where giving up custody is the only path to
• 1:16:44
  using Bitcoin in many scenarios. Yeah, and, and, and firstly,
• 1:16:48
  that's an incredible kind of summary of, of the situation
• 1:16:51
  because that is what you're seeing in developing countries,
• 1:16:53
  right? The theory of Bitcoiners was
• 1:16:56
  like, Oh no, like, you know, no, no, no, you're seeing Tether
• 1:17:00
  adoption right there. There's a percentage of Bitcoin
• 1:17:02
  adoption, but you're seeing Tether adoption.
• 1:17:04
  And I think it, it's an educational aspect and it's also
• 1:17:08
  a volatility conversation as well.
• 1:17:11
  Now I think my question to you, Seth, before we talk about the
• 1:17:15
  Cake wallet, because I do want to highlight that is how, how
• 1:17:19
  would that be possible? Because essentially, like the
• 1:17:23
  like the the Tucam, the the discussion is basically like,
• 1:17:26
  how do we, how do we implement, how do we scale Bitcoin without
• 1:17:31
  introducing a trade off that potentially exposes Bitcoin?
• 1:17:37
  It it essentially it threatens bitcoins decentralization and
• 1:17:41
  security, right? Like, how do you introduce that?
• 1:17:44
  And I think, you know, lightning has tried to do that, Fetty has
• 1:17:47
  tried to do that, E cash has tried to do that liquid has
• 1:17:50
  tried to do that. But as you say, right, you know,
• 1:17:53
  I don't know if I don't know about you guys, but like self
• 1:17:55
  custodial lightning is not a great experience.
• 1:17:59
  And I'm a I'm a I'm a experienced maxi, right?
• 1:18:04
  So you know, it's not a great experience and shout out to the
• 1:18:07
  Albie guys because they've done a great job and it is getting
• 1:18:10
  there. But most people when they're
• 1:18:12
  using lightning, whether it's the primal or wallet of Satoshi,
• 1:18:16
  that is non custodial lighting, which is a great experience.
• 1:18:19
  But as Seth has said, because it's non custodial, I mean,
• 1:18:23
  because it is custodial lighting, there's a rug pole,
• 1:18:26
  right? And if you live in a hostile
• 1:18:29
  jurisdiction, you know, for example, the United States is a
• 1:18:32
  great example. Wall of Satoshi in Phoenix at
• 1:18:34
  peace. I'm out, right?
• 1:18:35
  So yeah, I completely agree. So Seth, that's my question to
• 1:18:39
  you. How do you propose and perhaps
• 1:18:42
  it's there isn't an answer to this yet, right.
• 1:18:46
  But can you ever see a situation where you know, Bitcoin can
• 1:18:51
  potentially scale to allow this new influx of of people,
• 1:18:56
  especially from the global S coming in getting the benefits
• 1:18:59
  of of of of custody of custodying their own Bitcoin
• 1:19:03
  without sacrificing the decentralization and security of
• 1:19:06
  the network? Yes, and we have the technical
• 1:19:09
  tools today. That's the that's the crazy part
• 1:19:11
  here. It's like when we're talking
• 1:19:12
  about making self custody more approachable or even talking
• 1:19:16
  specifically about making lightning more useful.
• 1:19:19
  The thing that we need to do to make those two things happen has
• 1:19:22
  been around for years. OPCAT is one of the tools that
• 1:19:26
  would allow us to essentially think of covenants as building
• 1:19:29
  blocks that enable wallet developers to build better tools
• 1:19:32
  that allow you to hold on to your funds without having to
• 1:19:35
  actually own a single UTXO on chain.
• 1:19:38
  You can share that UTXO with other people in a way that is
• 1:19:41
  entirely self custodial, does not have the risk of you not
• 1:19:44
  being able to get those funds out.
• 1:19:45
  You can always exit back on chain with the amount of that
• 1:19:49
  UTXOU control. But we have really I would, I
• 1:19:52
  would kind of narrow it down. There's a lot of different
• 1:19:54
  proposals, a lot of different routes that can be taken here.
• 1:19:56
  But I would narrow it down to to two things that would allow us
• 1:20:00
  wallet developers like Cakewallet to build solutions
• 1:20:03
  that allow people to take self custody in a way that is
• 1:20:06
  resistant to fee spikes. That gives a much better user
• 1:20:10
  experience in the Lightning Network and that gives a much
• 1:20:12
  better user experience when we're talking long term storage
• 1:20:15
  of Bitcoin. And those things generally are
• 1:20:17
  called covenants. They've been proposed for years.
• 1:20:19
  OP CTV, which is another really important one, I believe was
• 1:20:23
  proposed in 2020 and it's been thoroughly vetted since then.
• 1:20:26
  OPCAT was created by Satoshi and was only disabled because he
• 1:20:31
  didn't have a, he didn't understand how to fix a denial
• 1:20:34
  of service attack that was possible with OPCAT at the time,
• 1:20:37
  so he disabled it. But the functionality of OPCAT
• 1:20:38
  is very simple, very well understood, and a combination of
• 1:20:42
  something like OPCAT and something OPCTV, which again,
• 1:20:45
  you don't need to memorize the names, but it just allows wallet
• 1:20:47
  developers or people building protocols like the ARC Network,
• 1:20:50
  which I'm sure many people have heard of recently, or Spark,
• 1:20:53
  which is another kind of layer 2 approach.
• 1:20:57
  With these covenants, these tools get immensely easier to
• 1:21:00
  use. They get much cheaper to use.
• 1:21:03
  The user experience of developers building on these
• 1:21:07
  would be drastically better. And the self sovereignty
• 1:21:09
  guarantees get better as well. We can build things like
• 1:21:12
  trustless bridges where when you're bridging into and out of
• 1:21:15
  something like Arc or Spark or more complex things even like
• 1:21:18
  thinking Liquid, you're bridging into and out of these.
• 1:21:20
  You can do it in a completely trustless way rather than having
• 1:21:24
  to trust that one out of a set of operators are legitimate or
• 1:21:27
  that a threshold of operators legitimate.
• 1:21:29
  And these two things are very simple, very well understood,
• 1:21:32
  possible to today, completely achievable and fix some of the
• 1:21:37
  critical issues that I see us coming to a crossroads in
• 1:21:40
  Bitcoin. The only issue right now is just
• 1:21:42
  a social issue. We just need people to
• 1:21:44
  understand that the self custodial approach to lightning
• 1:21:47
  is very painful right now and covenants like OPCAT and OPCTV
• 1:21:51
  would make that drastically easier.
• 1:21:53
  We need to understand that actually holding your own UTX OS
• 1:21:56
  on chain is not something that's going to happen forever because
• 1:21:58
  fees naturally have to increase for Bitcoin to remain secure.
• 1:22:03
  And we can fix these two things today.
• 1:22:05
  We have the tools, the code is there if they're well
• 1:22:08
  understood. We just have to get people to
• 1:22:10
  agree that we need these improvements and then find
• 1:22:14
  exactly the path towards actually activating something
• 1:22:16
  like that on Bitcoin. We're not talking about hard
• 1:22:18
  fork. We're not talking about some
• 1:22:19
  extremely complex thing on Bitcoin.
• 1:22:21
  We're not talking about making Bitcoin Etherium.
• 1:22:24
  These are just very simple building blocks that allow
• 1:22:26
  people like Cakebot, allow people like Arc, that a lot of
• 1:22:29
  people like Spark, that all people like Lightning,
• 1:22:31
  Developers, Phoenix, etcetera. Your favorite Lightning wallet,
• 1:22:34
  all of those get better with these building blocks and they
• 1:22:37
  don't open up risk to Bitcoin. They're extremely simple,
• 1:22:40
  they're extremely well understood and the the downsides
• 1:22:44
  are not really existent at this point because these things are
• 1:22:47
  so simple and so specific. They're to do very specific
• 1:22:50
  things and have very specific, well understood trade-offs.
• 1:22:54
  Beautiful man that's you guys go go check out Seth for privacy
• 1:22:59
  stay on top of this. He has a podcast.
• 1:23:02
  It's called the opt out pod. I'm going to drop a link for it
• 1:23:06
  for you guys, a chat. So you guys could stay basically
• 1:23:10
  in the vanguard of this discussion, right?
• 1:23:12
  Because I think it's incredibly important the topics that Seth
• 1:23:16
  is bringing up in terms of yes, Bitcoin is for everyone.
• 1:23:19
  How do we do this? Seth is making the case that it
• 1:23:22
  is possible. We hear a lot on Bitcoin Twitter
• 1:23:25
  that it isn't possible without breaking Bitcoin.
• 1:23:27
  Seth is making the case that that isn't the case.
• 1:23:30
  So stay, stay up to date with Seth.
• 1:23:32
  Go give him a follow on Twitter. Go check out his podcast.
• 1:23:35
  I'm sure he's having these discussions.
• 1:23:37
  His latest episode I believe is with LOP.
• 1:23:40
  So I'm I'm going to go hear that after this.
• 1:23:43
  Anyways, I do want to talk about the Cake wallet.
• 1:23:45
  Seth, this is the recent company that you joined.
• 1:23:49
  You're the VP of operations. What is the Cake wallet?
• 1:23:53
  Who's it for? Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:23:56
  Thanks for thanks for giving me a little bit of time to
• 1:23:57
  highlight this. So, yeah, I jumped over to
• 1:23:59
  Cakewell a couple of months ago as VP of Operations like you
• 1:24:02
  mentioned, because really I wanted the opportunity to be on
• 1:24:05
  the cutting edge of privacy in Bitcoin, to be on the cutting
• 1:24:08
  edge of user experience in Bitcoin.
• 1:24:10
  And I have long been a passionate Monero user.
• 1:24:14
  Monero, I think is an invaluable tool, especially when we're
• 1:24:17
  talking payments that you can make payments very cheaply with
• 1:24:22
  fantastic privacy, the best in the space.
• 1:24:25
  And so I've been a user of Monero actually longer than I've
• 1:24:27
  been a user of Bitcoin. And it's, it's really the Monero
• 1:24:30
  community that got me interested in understanding of personal
• 1:24:32
  privacy. So Cakewala, our, our core focus
• 1:24:35
  is really bringing privacy to the, the average individual.
• 1:24:38
  We want to try to make it as easy and approachable as
• 1:24:41
  possible. Monero is a huge part of that
• 1:24:43
  where it's, it's simplest in Monero because the the protocol
• 1:24:46
  in Monero enforces default privacy for every transaction.
• 1:24:50
  But we're talking about Bitcoin as well.
• 1:24:52
  Like I said earlier on, we were the first to implement silent
• 1:24:55
  payments and still the only one that allows you to receive
• 1:24:57
  silent payment transactions directly into Cake.
• 1:24:59
  And that ability to be on the the cutting edge and to build
• 1:25:03
  stuff that I see is immensely important to human freedom has
• 1:25:07
  been really awesome. So Cake wallet to, to give the
• 1:25:09
  TLDR, it is a multi cryptocurrency wallet.
• 1:25:11
  We have things other than Bitcoin in there.
• 1:25:13
  It started as a Monero wallet, but our heavy focus lately has
• 1:25:16
  been Bitcoin and will always continue to be Monero as well.
• 1:25:20
  And we have exciting things that we're working on right now.
• 1:25:23
  We're working on the the new Bitcoin usernames proposal bit
• 1:25:26
  353. I have some exciting ideas on
• 1:25:28
  how we can use that within Cakewallet to let you do things
• 1:25:31
  like send money to Seth at Seth for privacy.com using Bitcoin,
• 1:25:35
  using silent payments under the hood and Bolt 12 under the hood.
• 1:25:38
  And then we also are working on pay join support within
• 1:25:42
  Cakewallet, which is essentially a way where when you send or
• 1:25:44
  receive payments, you can work together with the person that
• 1:25:46
  you're paying or receiving funds from to make the transaction
• 1:25:50
  together. You can think of it kind of like
• 1:25:52
  a coin join, but it's not, it's not the same.
• 1:25:54
  But what it does is it is it breaks this concept of if these
• 1:25:57
  two inputs are spent on the same transaction, they must be owned
• 1:25:59
  by the same person. And instead it hides the amount,
• 1:26:02
  it hides what the true input is. And it provides another bump to
• 1:26:05
  Bitcoin privacy without actually looking like a privacy tool on
• 1:26:08
  chain at Bitcoin. So I'm just looking at the
• 1:26:10
  transaction. Can't tell that you were
• 1:26:11
  choosing to gain more privacy it just looks like a standard
• 1:26:14
  payment and it breaks all of the heuristics people or a chain
• 1:26:17
  surveillance companies are used to for very simple things like
• 1:26:20
  the common input ownership heuristic.
• 1:26:22
  So those are the things we're working on right now.
• 1:26:24
  We try to make it as simple as possible, like I said, to to
• 1:26:27
  gain privacy on these chains like Bitcoin, like Monero, as
• 1:26:31
  well as swapping back and forth. Kind of my, my thesis for a very
• 1:26:35
  long time on how Bitcoin and Manera would be symbiotic is
• 1:26:38
  that Bitcoin has proven itself as a store of value.
• 1:26:40
  We've talked all episode about that today that it's proven that
• 1:26:44
  that is happening. It is a fantastic place to store
• 1:26:46
  wealth, but the it's not the perfect tool for payments right
• 1:26:49
  now, especially with self custodial lightning being very
• 1:26:52
  difficult with on chain payments having no privacy by default and
• 1:26:55
  they're not being clear privacy tools to gain that.
• 1:26:58
  Monero is a fantastic tool for spending.
• 1:27:00
  And so a lot of the thesis that I've always had is that people
• 1:27:02
  would store value in Bitcoin and that they would spend Monero.
• 1:27:05
  And that has been playing out in real time, especially over the
• 1:27:07
  last 12 months, we've seen a massive growth in Bitcoiners
• 1:27:10
  starting to use Monero, swapping from Bitcoin into Monero just a
• 1:27:14
  little bit, like enough for a month spending and then spending
• 1:27:16
  from there. And that's a A use case that we
• 1:27:19
  explicitly work to serve within Cakewallet to make it as easy as
• 1:27:22
  possible for you to do that. So that's the TLDR. Fully open
• 1:27:26
  source, of course, I wouldn't touch anything that was a 100%
• 1:27:28
  open source that didn't have permissive licenses that anyone
• 1:27:31
  can clone it, can build whatever they want on it, can open pool
• 1:27:34
  requests for features that they want.
• 1:27:37
  But fully open source privacy at the core of everything we do.
• 1:27:40
  No analytics, no ability for us to see what you do in your
• 1:27:42
  wallet. We try to provide ways for you
• 1:27:45
  to easily add your own nodes, like when you're using Bitcoin
• 1:27:48
  or Manera or other cryptocurrencies, you can just
• 1:27:50
  scan AQR in your Umbrel or something like that to connect
• 1:27:53
  directly to your own Bitcoin nodes.
• 1:27:54
  So the Cake wallet doesn't learn anything about your Bitcoin
• 1:27:56
  wallets. That's at the, the, the core of
• 1:27:59
  everything we do is financial privacy and user privacy.
• 1:28:02
  So you can be sure that everything that we do is going
• 1:28:04
  to be focused heavily on making sure that we learn as little
• 1:28:06
  about you as possible and that you reveal as little about
• 1:28:09
  yourself to the world as possible.
• 1:28:11
  Unless you opt to reveal more, which is really the crux of
• 1:28:13
  privacy. Awesome.
• 1:28:14
  Well, ladies and gentlemen, this was simply Bitcoin Live for
• 1:28:18
  November 19, 2024. I'm your host, Nico, as my
• 1:28:23
  legendary Co host, Optimus Fields and our guest today,
• 1:28:26
  Steph for privacy with cakewallet.com and you can go
• 1:28:30
  follow his podcast Opt out pod. You recently just had Jameson
• 1:28:36
  lop on, so highly recommend checking out that episode.
• 1:28:39
  Anyways, guys, if you enjoyed the show, you know to do smash
• 1:28:41
  the like button, consider subscribing if you feel like
• 1:28:44
  we've provided you value, but the number one thing you could
• 1:28:46
  do to help push the peaceful Bitcoin revolution forward is
• 1:28:50
  share this content. In fact, share all Bitcoin
• 1:28:53
  content. Remember, we got to take over
• 1:28:54
  the culture and the way that we do that is one step at a time.
• 1:28:57
  All right guys, love you all. We'll be back tomorrow for
• 1:28:59
  another episode of Simply Bitcoin Live.
• 1:29:04
  Brought to you by bitcoinwell.com, a Bitcoin only
• 1:29:07
  platform on a mission to enable financial independence.