Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: Skylar Neese murdered by her best friends

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Killer Thriller Docu: Skylar Neese murdered by her best friends · Legally Brunette

0:13
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, this is the Killer Thriller Docu edition. I
0:17
Speaker 1: am your host, Jen Fessler, and as a matter of fact,
0:20
Speaker 1: this is my first episode and we are going in
0:23
Speaker 1: depth and behind the scenes of the most watched and
0:26
Speaker 1: most binge true crime documentaries and docuseries. We are beginning
0:31
Speaker 1: with a big one. This is the new Hulu documentary
0:34
Speaker 1: Friends Like These, The Skyler Nie Murder. Sixteen year old
0:38
Speaker 1: Skyler Niece vanished from her West Virginia home on July sixth,
0:41
Speaker 1: twenty twelve. Her family and community are thrown into turmoil
0:46
Speaker 1: as the search for answers intensifies. Police then turn their
0:49
Speaker 1: attention towards Skyler's best friends, Sheila and Rachel, uncovering secrets, betrayal,
0:55
Speaker 1: and identity. And I will tell you all, we're talking
0:59
Speaker 1: about murder, and we're talking about sixteen year old actually
1:03
Speaker 1: fifteen and sixteen, and we're talking about something that happened
1:08
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. It's fascinating. And today I have the
1:11
Speaker 1: absolute pleasure of talking with the director of this documentary,
1:15
Speaker 1: Claire Titley. So let's jump right in. Hi Claire, Hi Jen.
1:20
Speaker 1: Lovely to meet you, so nice to meet you. Thank
1:22
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on, So I have to
1:24
Speaker 1: just ask you this right off the bat, like are
1:26
Speaker 1: you okay? Are you okay? Because I'm not.
1:31
Speaker 2: I know. I think it's one of those things that's
1:32
Speaker 2: a documentary filmmaking that you have to absorb a lot
1:35
Speaker 2: of this in that thing. But is it is hard?
1:37
Speaker 2: It's hard.
1:38
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of the questions, one of the many,
1:40
Speaker 1: many questions that I have is just how how do
1:44
Speaker 1: you get through and compartmentalize? And I've read you know
1:49
Speaker 1: your bio, and obviously this is not your first rodeo.
1:52
Speaker 1: You've been a professional and you've won awards at BATHTA
1:56
Speaker 1: and I know that, so you're a professional. But even
1:58
Speaker 1: with that, this was so terrifying, upsetting. Kudos to you gripping.
2:07
Speaker 1: I can't. I'm still trying to process it, you know.
2:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you. And I think the thing is
2:13
Speaker 2: I think particularly I say kind of like if you've
2:16
Speaker 2: got if you've got daughters or whatever, but actually, quite frankly,
2:18
Speaker 2: if you've ever been if you've ever been a teenage girl,
2:20
Speaker 2: if you've ever been a teenager, I think it kind
2:22
Speaker 2: of like rings. I think it rings, I say rings. True,
2:25
Speaker 2: there's something quite harrowing when you remember when you kind
2:29
Speaker 2: of take into that world and you remember what it
2:30
Speaker 2: was like, you know, to be, to be that age.
2:32
Speaker 2: And I think that that for me was the thing
2:35
Speaker 2: that kind of sort of really hooked me into it,
2:39
Speaker 2: and the thing that we wanted to concentrate on was
2:41
Speaker 2: kind of like that side of it and come at
2:44
Speaker 2: it from that particular angle. But it's also the reason
2:48
Speaker 2: why I think it is so harrowing this story. I've
2:52
Speaker 2: made a lot of films in the past before. I've
2:54
Speaker 2: made a lot of films about nine to eleven, a
2:56
Speaker 2: lot of films about First and Second World War, and
2:59
Speaker 2: I've interviewed vetters and people have experienced all that. But
3:02
Speaker 2: there's something about these I say teenagers, they're not teenagers anymore,
3:06
Speaker 2: but the friends of Skyler that is so they're so
3:11
Speaker 2: traumatized because this thing happened to them when they were
3:14
Speaker 2: so young, and it happened to somebody who sat on
3:17
Speaker 2: the desk next to them.
3:19
Speaker 1: Yes, and they were.
3:20
Speaker 2: And there's something about that that has changed them all forever.
3:24
Speaker 1: Yes, So much of that is what was on my mind.
3:27
Speaker 1: The way, first of all, the depiction of it, the
3:30
Speaker 1: way you zoomed in on things, For instance, she had
3:35
Speaker 1: these magnets Skyler did up on her door, the spelling
3:38
Speaker 1: Skyler and I don't know, you know, it's hard to know.
3:40
Speaker 1: I don't know how much of this. It's obviously a documentary,
3:43
Speaker 1: those were actually there because I've those magnets were on
3:46
Speaker 1: my fridge. My kids used to come and play with
3:48
Speaker 1: those types of magnets, you know, with the numbers and
3:50
Speaker 1: the letters, and even just that detail was so chilling
3:57
Speaker 1: because you did such a beautiful job of us as
4:03
Speaker 1: a viewer being able to look at this young girl
4:06
Speaker 1: and see my own daughter kids at that age. My
4:10
Speaker 1: daughter's now twenty three, really not so long ago high
4:13
Speaker 1: school and especially with the friends, so I guess now
4:17
Speaker 1: they're what like thirty.
4:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, they would have Skylet would have turned thirty just
4:22
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, so I around that age, twenty
4:24
Speaker 2: eight to thirty two, that sort of age is.
4:26
Speaker 1: What right they are now? So and like hearing them
4:30
Speaker 1: tell the story from their vantage point was just fascinating.
4:36
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to use words, so I feel
4:38
Speaker 1: like for me, it's hard to use positive words to
4:41
Speaker 1: describe it. It was the most gripping documentary and brilliant
4:45
Speaker 1: and if you haven't seen it. I am telling you,
4:48
Speaker 1: I beg of you to watch it. It is so
4:50
Speaker 1: insightful and heartfelt and all of that, but it's sick.
4:54
Speaker 1: It's sick. It's these women. These women, these girls were monsters.
4:58
Speaker 1: And watching someone like let's Daniel, he was so sweet
5:03
Speaker 1: and watching how you know, he talked about how he
5:08
Speaker 1: at one point lost it right and spoke up and
5:11
Speaker 1: couldn't help himself right, and watching him now and thinking,
5:16
Speaker 1: I was thinking to myself, the told that this must
5:20
Speaker 1: have taken on the lives of the kids around them.
5:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the thing, the key thing that you
5:25
Speaker 2: say that they were girls, they were kind of like
5:27
Speaker 2: that's that's the scary thing about this, and they are
5:29
Speaker 2: so you forget the teenage brain is so it's still
5:33
Speaker 2: being formed, you know, And I mean teenagers make stupid
5:39
Speaker 2: decisions and they make kind of, you know, bad choices.
5:41
Speaker 2: But obviously this was this is kind of like on
5:43
Speaker 2: another level, but it but I think that is one
5:46
Speaker 2: of the things that always stayed with me. And it
5:48
Speaker 2: was something that we really wanted the audience to feel.
5:51
Speaker 1: You did, yes, yes you did. You were able to
5:54
Speaker 1: humanize them because I wanted.
5:56
Speaker 2: But it was it was about putting the audience. We
5:59
Speaker 2: were very very because to put the audience in the
6:01
Speaker 2: place of the teenagers of her friends, it's it's very
6:06
Speaker 2: eat What was very easy, but to make a series
6:10
Speaker 2: from the perspective of you know, armchair kind of sleuth
6:14
Speaker 2: or whatever it is, and you are to an extent
6:16
Speaker 2: trying to solve the murder a lot, you know, along
6:18
Speaker 2: alongside you solved the self of disappearance alongside the police.
6:23
Speaker 2: But we we knew that it would hit home harder
6:25
Speaker 2: and actually kind of understand the motive or lack of
6:28
Speaker 2: motive more if you could get into this world, which
6:32
Speaker 2: is why we made We made a lot of decisions
6:35
Speaker 2: about even just like the color palette. We kind of
6:38
Speaker 2: made it. It is kind of purposefully cutesy and teenagery,
6:41
Speaker 2: and and we kind of tried to we've shot them
6:44
Speaker 2: all it's not actually their their school, but we shot
6:47
Speaker 2: them all in a school. We kind of we made
6:50
Speaker 2: sure that it had this teenage.
6:52
Speaker 1: Palette American it looks like it looks exactly like where
6:56
Speaker 1: my kids went to high school, and it's kind of.
6:58
Speaker 2: Drawn from films like eighth grade, like was a big
7:01
Speaker 2: influence in that way, and you know, all all those
7:03
Speaker 2: kind of films. I mean, weirdly kind of probably ended
7:06
Speaker 2: up watching more teen movies than true crime in order
7:09
Speaker 2: to try and get influenced.
7:10
Speaker 1: He did a brilliant job of that, because that's that's
7:13
Speaker 1: I think part of what was so very gripping. It
7:17
Speaker 1: was so familiar. You created the world, this world, you know,
7:22
Speaker 1: you have the I don't even know. I still haven't processed,
7:25
Speaker 1: if I'm being honest, like how to feel about these
7:28
Speaker 1: children and what they did. It's keeping me up at night.
7:31
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, But I will tell you that the
7:34
Speaker 1: brilliance of this documentary is that it is so familiar.
7:41
Speaker 1: And the color palette whatever is that means or whatever
7:44
Speaker 1: it is that you chose, resonates right.
7:47
Speaker 2: And the composer that the composer did a brilliant job
7:49
Speaker 2: as well of this like amazing score that you hopefully
7:52
Speaker 2: don't notice to an extent, but they're trying to. She
7:55
Speaker 2: was listening to so much music from twenty twelve that
7:57
Speaker 2: teenagers were listening to it. Yeah, try and kind of
7:59
Speaker 2: like I read that through so that you got this real,
8:02
Speaker 2: you know, and it twists and becomes darker, but so
8:05
Speaker 2: that you get that real feeling of like of being there,
8:08
Speaker 2: of being that age again, which is one sometimes why
8:11
Speaker 2: I keep referring to skyl as friends as teenagers, even
8:14
Speaker 2: though they're all twenty eight twitter right, because the wait,
8:18
Speaker 2: that's what we're trying to do and get them into
8:20
Speaker 2: that world and remember what it was like before she
8:22
Speaker 2: went missing.
8:23
Speaker 1: They still seem very young to me. I don't know
8:25
Speaker 1: if that's about me being old, or if it's about
8:28
Speaker 1: the fact that they actually have just seem so vulnerable.
8:31
Speaker 1: These kids are now again like twenty to thirty. I mean,
8:34
Speaker 1: I guess they're not kids anymore. But they felt you
8:36
Speaker 1: felt their heartache, even getting emotional thinking talking about it.
8:42
Speaker 1: They were just incredible.
8:43
Speaker 2: You know.
8:43
Speaker 1: It's hard because I said to my producers before we started, like,
8:45
Speaker 1: I don't want to give away spoilers from people that
8:49
Speaker 1: haven't seen it. On the other hand, it's not it's
8:52
Speaker 1: a public story. On the other hand, I think that
8:54
Speaker 1: our listeners probably have already seen it and are so
8:57
Speaker 1: excited just to talk to you. It's like I'm walking
9:00
Speaker 1: tyrope here. I don't want to give it away. But
9:02
Speaker 1: at the same I don't think it really matters because
9:04
Speaker 1: the way that this it was so even if you
9:08
Speaker 1: know what happens at the end. This was the most
9:12
Speaker 1: fascinating documentary because, well, I think because of all of
9:16
Speaker 1: the components, because of the fact that they were so young,
9:18
Speaker 1: because of the fact that it was so violent. Yeah,
9:21
Speaker 1: all of that, but just the way that you whatever
9:24
Speaker 1: magic that you worked, my friend was it was just incredible.
9:30
Speaker 1: And you know, I feel like almost I don't know
9:32
Speaker 1: if you had this any of this, but as a viewer,
9:35
Speaker 1: I feel guilty. I've I enjoyed it so much and
9:38
Speaker 1: then you think this is real, you know, I you
9:40
Speaker 1: must have had a hard time compartmentalizing. I would think
9:43
Speaker 1: it's I.
9:43
Speaker 2: Tell you, I'll tell you. One of the things that
9:45
Speaker 2: was kind of interesting about it was the fact that
9:47
Speaker 2: I was making it at the same time I had
9:49
Speaker 2: a preteen so when I started, she was preaching, right,
9:52
Speaker 2: and so I'd be reading the stories and you know,
9:57
Speaker 2: I've readen the social media posts from these three girls.
10:01
Speaker 2: To have this intense relationship Skyla, Sheila and Rachel, who
10:05
Speaker 2: have this, you know, it's it's it's like a love affair.
10:07
Speaker 2: Their relationship. It's so intense that the trio as they've
10:11
Speaker 2: become kind of known by everybody and reading these recent
10:15
Speaker 2: sort of tweets and things and and little bits that
10:18
Speaker 2: Skyla had written every so often, and and then I'd
10:21
Speaker 2: come home sometimes and talk to my daughter, and you
10:24
Speaker 2: kind of have those friendship dynamics are kind of playing out,
10:27
Speaker 2: and it's.
10:29
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, yes, absolutely, that is the thing because it
10:32
Speaker 1: is so familiar. I mean, this was so mean girls
10:35
Speaker 1: the movie. Right, Well, obviously it wasn't.
10:38
Speaker 2: But we've all been there, haven't We've been there.
10:40
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm just going to like start to just throw
10:42
Speaker 1: questions at you because I'm just so curious about so
10:45
Speaker 1: much of this. So first, did you ever try to
10:48
Speaker 1: get Rachel or Sheila or their parents? Well, I guess
10:52
Speaker 1: you'd have to go to prison, but to take part
10:55
Speaker 1: in this.
10:56
Speaker 2: We approached them several times a bet and their families
11:00
Speaker 2: as well, and we didn't get a response to all
11:02
Speaker 2: from them, which, you know, not really in hindsight. In hindsight,
11:07
Speaker 2: I don't know whether I'm pleased or not about that.
11:09
Speaker 2: That's yeah, complicated feelings.
11:12
Speaker 1: The actress who was doing the voice over work for
11:15
Speaker 1: Skyler read a lot of posts. I didn't know if
11:18
Speaker 1: that was just part of what you all put in
11:19
Speaker 1: or if those were actual posts from her or diary entries.
11:23
Speaker 2: Everything that she's everything that she reads. And she, by
11:27
Speaker 2: the way, was somebody who we spent a long time
11:30
Speaker 2: casting actors. I mean, I was very clear that I
11:32
Speaker 2: was not going to be using AI for this, you know,
11:35
Speaker 2: it was very clear on that, and we used as
11:38
Speaker 2: much of recordings of Skylar's voice as we possibly can,
11:40
Speaker 2: and we got Dave and Mary, her parents, to sign
11:42
Speaker 2: off on her voice, and they were very much involved
11:44
Speaker 2: in the casting process as well.
11:46
Speaker 1: And that was actually those were Facebook and posts or
11:49
Speaker 1: Twitter posts or were they diary entries or all of that.
11:52
Speaker 2: There was a lot of stuff that she'd written that
11:54
Speaker 2: they shared with us. There was a lot of stuff
11:56
Speaker 2: that you know, she's handwritten that she'd shared with us.
11:59
Speaker 2: There were also so a lot of some of them
12:02
Speaker 2: I think are tweets and potentially potentially there's some Facebook
12:06
Speaker 2: in there as well. But everything that's in there is
12:09
Speaker 2: stuff that she's is stuff that she's written that like,
12:12
Speaker 2: we didn't make anything up. None of it is dramatized
12:15
Speaker 2: in that way. You know, everything everything is truthfully what
12:19
Speaker 2: she said, and the same for Rachel and Sheila as well.
12:23
Speaker 2: Because one of the things that we didn't realize when
12:25
Speaker 2: we started this series that we would actually get hold
12:28
Speaker 2: of Rachel's diary, which is kind of insane.
12:32
Speaker 1: Really, you know, how did you do that?
12:34
Speaker 2: That was through I was going to think, is it
12:36
Speaker 2: through the FBI or through the you know, when a
12:39
Speaker 2: series comes out it's research, of course, of course I
12:43
Speaker 2: think I believe it was through the police that we
12:45
Speaker 2: managed to get that.
12:46
Speaker 1: It was amazing. I can't believe you that was because
12:49
Speaker 1: it's hard watching this knowing that it's a documentary and
12:52
Speaker 1: still believing what you're watching, right and hearing Yeah, it's
12:59
Speaker 1: just fascinating.
13:00
Speaker 2: We had I mean, this wasn't a fast turn around series.
13:02
Speaker 2: We had a lot. We spent a long time developing
13:05
Speaker 2: relationships kind of like seeking evidence and things, and that's
13:08
Speaker 2: one of the reasons. And actually it paid off because
13:10
Speaker 2: it took months and months and months for some of
13:13
Speaker 2: this evidence to kind of come to that hasn't been
13:15
Speaker 2: seen or heard in other podcasts or document I mean,
13:18
Speaker 2: there has been a lot done on this case in
13:19
Speaker 2: the past, which I wasn't aware of even before I started.
13:21
Speaker 2: I wasn't either, not to this, not to this extent.
13:24
Speaker 2: I mean, the things, the materials we were able to
13:26
Speaker 2: uncover and the sting operation that there's at one point
13:29
Speaker 2: there's an undercover sting that Rachel does with with with Sheila,
13:33
Speaker 2: and oh.
13:34
Speaker 1: I have questions about that. I have such questions about that. Wait,
13:37
Speaker 1: hold on, okay, David and Mary Spyler's parents, how was that?
13:42
Speaker 1: That must have been very difficult? And how are they today?
13:45
Speaker 1: What a stupid question there there? And she was an
13:49
Speaker 1: only child? Correct? Because I never saw any mention of.
13:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's she's David Mary's only child and together,
13:56
Speaker 2: but they they they are in I don't know. It's
14:00
Speaker 2: really hard to answer, isn't it kind of like how
14:02
Speaker 2: are they? How are they?
14:03
Speaker 1: Know? It's a dumb question. Please forgive me, because it's
14:06
Speaker 1: they're they're.
14:06
Speaker 2: In as good you know. What I always kind of
14:08
Speaker 2: say to them is that I have a lot of
14:10
Speaker 2: admiration for them, and it's kind of redefined my ideas
14:14
Speaker 2: of parenting. It's kind of the idea that they are
14:17
Speaker 2: still good parents even though their child isn't here. I
14:19
Speaker 2: still feel like they're, you know, they're still parenting in
14:22
Speaker 2: some form, and they're and they're brilliant people, and they
14:26
Speaker 2: are they are good friends.
14:27
Speaker 1: Still together, are they still together.
14:29
Speaker 2: Together and uh, and they're still in Morgantown, just outside Morgantown.
14:34
Speaker 2: And the next time I go over there to that
14:36
Speaker 2: neck of the woods, I will be popping in and
14:39
Speaker 2: to go and see them and have a team of them. Yeah,
14:42
Speaker 2: I mean, they're they're I have a lot of admiration
14:45
Speaker 2: for them.
14:45
Speaker 1: So do I so Rachel's mom. That one of the
15:03
Speaker 1: things that really struck me, right was when the FBI
15:07
Speaker 1: they were going to set up Sheila and how Rachel's
15:10
Speaker 1: say come over. And I watched as Rachel's mom said
15:14
Speaker 1: to her, I love you, you can do this. And
15:20
Speaker 1: I mean I couldn't for whatever reason, you know, there
15:23
Speaker 1: are certain it all struck me. But this mother saying
15:26
Speaker 1: to this daughter, I love you, you can share your friend
15:30
Speaker 1: to come over right. I know you want to throw
15:32
Speaker 1: up a little, and I love you. You could admit
15:34
Speaker 1: to stabbing your best friend and you could set up
15:37
Speaker 1: your other best friend. It was so familiar to watch
15:40
Speaker 1: a mother just say I love you, you can do this.
15:42
Speaker 1: I say that to my daughter all the time, you know,
15:45
Speaker 1: And it was that just that was like a just
15:48
Speaker 1: a gut punch. Now, I also want to know from
15:51
Speaker 1: you in terms of Sheila's that was Sila, and no,
15:55
Speaker 1: that was Rachel. In terms of Rachel's parents, and a
15:57
Speaker 1: lot there was a lot about how religious that they were,
15:59
Speaker 1: but there was not a lot about the father. I
16:02
Speaker 1: did I was wondering about a little bit more about him,
16:06
Speaker 1: and I know, and there was apparently when I think
16:10
Speaker 1: it was Daniel that talked about they were in theater
16:13
Speaker 1: and the mother freaked out, and I guess Rachel was
16:17
Speaker 1: freaking out and yelling about how she couldn't do something,
16:19
Speaker 1: and then her mom was like get it together and
16:21
Speaker 1: was awful And was she abusive? Is that is that show?
16:24
Speaker 1: I mean? Were the parents physically abusive? I wasn't quite sure.
16:28
Speaker 2: I know, I have to be really careful when I
16:29
Speaker 2: say it because in terms of evidence and thing, you know,
16:32
Speaker 2: But but I uh. And we did reach out to
16:36
Speaker 2: her mum because we've we've obviously had a lot of
16:39
Speaker 2: this anecdotal.
16:40
Speaker 1: Y yes, you know, yes, And it wasn't from.
16:43
Speaker 2: Just one one source. It was from several sources, and
16:45
Speaker 2: we weren't the first people to kind of exposed that
16:48
Speaker 2: or discuss that either in the in that regard as
16:52
Speaker 2: to as to her father. Again, it's you know, it's
16:56
Speaker 2: he wasn't in the picture. And I've heard various things
16:59
Speaker 2: from different people, you know, but it's it's all sort
17:02
Speaker 2: of hearsay.
17:03
Speaker 1: Right.
17:03
Speaker 2: We did try and reach we did try and reach
17:05
Speaker 2: out to him, but he definitely, he certainly wasn't in
17:07
Speaker 2: the picture, and it was definitely very much. She had
17:09
Speaker 2: this kind of intense relationship with her mum, as you
17:12
Speaker 2: kind of do when you have single parent families. In
17:14
Speaker 2: that way, she ractively effectively was you know, single parent family, right,
17:17
Speaker 2: I mean you hear the nine nine nine nine one one? Cool? Sorry,
17:21
Speaker 2: you know from when her mom says, I can't control
17:24
Speaker 2: her anymore.
17:25
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a black guy, right, yeah, yeah, was that Sheila?
17:28
Speaker 2: That was Rachel Rachel che I can't control her anymore.
17:34
Speaker 1: I lost it. She's completely lost it, exactly exactly. So
17:39
Speaker 1: I'm like, my head is spinning. I have so much
17:41
Speaker 1: to ask you, So let me ask you this. A
17:45
Speaker 1: lot of talk about the brothers, the drug dealers, and
17:50
Speaker 1: when the night of was. I guess there's no way
17:53
Speaker 1: to know for sure. Did they ever say yes, we
17:55
Speaker 1: were on heroin or we were on I'm picturing some
17:58
Speaker 1: kind of drug that would have altered their brain to
18:02
Speaker 1: actually allow them to do what they did.
18:05
Speaker 2: There was talk about them smoking some weed and that
18:07
Speaker 2: was about it. There was no but you know, it
18:10
Speaker 2: was interesting, it was it was the one thing. It
18:14
Speaker 2: was the most credible thing that that we that everybody
18:17
Speaker 2: thought that had happened, was that somebody had taken Skyler
18:21
Speaker 2: out and got her heart or basically an accidental overdose
18:25
Speaker 2: in some form. That was the kind of that was
18:27
Speaker 2: the most likely thing. And right up until the very end,
18:30
Speaker 2: I think I think that's what the FBI were thinking
18:33
Speaker 2: when they were interviewing Rachel, that they were going to
18:34
Speaker 2: say she accidentally overdose. We hid her body because we
18:38
Speaker 2: were scared blah blah blah, you know, or something along
18:40
Speaker 2: these lens, and we dragged her out. We forcibly gave
18:42
Speaker 2: her too much because we thought it would be funny.
18:44
Speaker 1: Right right, you know this and that all seems made sense,
18:49
Speaker 1: of course, yeah.
18:50
Speaker 2: And that kind of would make sense, and you could
18:52
Speaker 2: kind of imagine that happening. And I think right up
18:54
Speaker 2: until the very end, and they were experimenting. But it's
18:58
Speaker 2: hard to say exactly how much Skyla was taking, you know,
19:03
Speaker 2: whether she was really kind of going as far as
19:05
Speaker 2: Sheila was in terms of her drug taking.
19:07
Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't even thinking about Skyler getting in the car.
19:10
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how much is there exact could
19:13
Speaker 1: that be a reason that they were so drugged up?
19:16
Speaker 1: But and I'm not talking about pop but it's like,
19:19
Speaker 1: I keep looking for an answer to this. Probably yeah,
19:24
Speaker 1: a question that will never be answered.
19:25
Speaker 2: If they were you'd be thinking, oh, well, obviously this
19:28
Speaker 2: is a crime of passion or it's a crime of accident.
19:31
Speaker 2: But they planned this. That's great. I now.
19:34
Speaker 1: I talked to my producers about that before we started.
19:36
Speaker 1: That is a thing that even if they were on
19:39
Speaker 1: god knows what, hallucinogenics or whatever, it still this was
19:43
Speaker 1: their plan. The plan was not just also to you know,
19:47
Speaker 1: to throw some stuff in her diet coke. It was
19:49
Speaker 1: testine no tab her to stab.
19:52
Speaker 2: Her practica with knives, with a shovel, with all the
19:56
Speaker 2: all the things that they needed. They talked about it
19:58
Speaker 2: for days, planned the day that they were going to
20:00
Speaker 2: do it. You know, there were all these things, and
20:03
Speaker 2: I think one of the chilling things that gets me
20:05
Speaker 2: is that is the fact that it's one of the
20:07
Speaker 2: things that Perry or Marsha said that the prosecutors and
20:11
Speaker 2: they said all it would have taken was for one
20:14
Speaker 2: of them to say, hey, should.
20:16
Speaker 1: We not do this?
20:17
Speaker 2: You know, it just just would have taken that, just
20:20
Speaker 2: that small thing.
20:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. So with that, it's interesting to me how the
20:25
Speaker 1: two of them, it felt like Sheila was a ringleader,
20:30
Speaker 1: at least to me, but in the end they got
20:33
Speaker 1: very different sentences, and having to do with the fact
20:37
Speaker 1: that Rachel cooperated, I guess with law enforcement.
20:42
Speaker 2: And you know, if you confess, you own the narrative,
20:46
Speaker 2: don't you. That's the thing that if you're the first one,
20:49
Speaker 2: you own it. You own the narrative and it's your
20:51
Speaker 2: your you know.
20:52
Speaker 1: But even so, but the way that that law enforcement
20:56
Speaker 1: they said when she admitted to what they had done specifically,
21:00
Speaker 1: I guess the stabbing, they couldn't believe it. They were
21:04
Speaker 1: in shock. The one the law enforcement in the room,
21:07
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it was FBI at the time,
21:10
Speaker 1: And then they talked about how also law enforcement was
21:13
Speaker 1: talking about it again, I don't know if it was
21:14
Speaker 1: the police or the FBI can't I'm not sure, But
21:17
Speaker 1: about how when they finally got Sheila in the room,
21:23
Speaker 1: was it I hope that I'm keeping this right. When
21:24
Speaker 1: she took her fingernails and she scratched them down the table,
21:30
Speaker 1: and that, to me was like the first time that
21:32
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, whoa, whoa, this is a monster,
21:36
Speaker 1: she's psycho. But that almost I felt like that was
21:39
Speaker 1: the first time that they were coming to terms with
21:41
Speaker 1: the fact that these girls could do that, do you
21:43
Speaker 1: know what I mean?
21:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that that was a bit early,
21:46
Speaker 2: But I think it's kind of like that was her.
21:48
Speaker 2: She was losing control because she I mean, she was
21:51
Speaker 2: kind of running rings around them all.
21:52
Speaker 1: Really like these.
21:53
Speaker 2: Two girls were kind of like big and in part
21:56
Speaker 2: because nobody suspected that to go Els could do something
22:01
Speaker 2: quite so horrific, And actually the only person who who
22:04
Speaker 2: had their suspicions, possibly more than anybody.
22:07
Speaker 1: Else, was Daniel.
22:10
Speaker 2: Well it was I was going to say, in terms
22:12
Speaker 2: of the police was actually was just col Bank, the
22:14
Speaker 2: female police officer. Yes, yeah, me always thinks is that
22:17
Speaker 2: because you know, only girls no good can be you know?
22:22
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, wow. Okay, So here's a question I
22:27
Speaker 1: have to have answered. So Rachel told Fantasia what they
22:30
Speaker 1: had done. Right, Fantasia was the friend Rachel.
22:33
Speaker 2: Rachel lied. Rachel said that Sheila had stabbed.
22:38
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and she knew nothing about it, right, So
22:42
Speaker 1: my question was, was Fantasia ever approached in terms of
22:46
Speaker 1: you knew about this, you should have done something about
22:51
Speaker 1: this poor young girl who I personally play zero blame on.
22:54
Speaker 1: But I'm just asking was that did she ever have
22:57
Speaker 1: a problem because she knew and didn't you know?
23:00
Speaker 2: Well, so when when Rachel told Fantasia, Rachel had already
23:04
Speaker 2: told the police. She was just out at that point.
23:07
Speaker 2: This is what's like kind of really scared, I think
23:09
Speaker 2: sometimes quite frightening to kind of get your head around.
23:11
Speaker 2: Is that Rachel confessed she'd taken them to at that point,
23:17
Speaker 2: had she taken them to where the body is or
23:19
Speaker 2: she tried to take them to.
23:19
Speaker 1: Where too much the snow was there?
23:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she has and then her mom somehow
23:25
Speaker 2: lets her have a sleepover with her friend.
23:27
Speaker 1: Thank you for bringing that up. What the fuck? So, yes, sorry,
23:33
Speaker 1: excuse me, but what the fuck?
23:36
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, It's just that's just
23:38
Speaker 2: absolute madness. And so Paul Fandasia is like having a
23:41
Speaker 2: sleepover with her, you know, like her best friend, perfectively,
23:44
Speaker 2: you know, and having this great, great evening and then
23:47
Speaker 2: Rachel confesses.
23:49
Speaker 1: They were laughing, talking talking talking. Hey, by the way,
23:53
Speaker 1: ps our friend Sheila stabbed Skylight a death like it
23:58
Speaker 1: was just so yeah, so bizarre.
24:02
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's horrific. And this is what I mean about,
24:04
Speaker 2: it's so horrific what these what these girls, what these
24:07
Speaker 2: typical these friends have have had to kind of go through.
24:10
Speaker 2: Because there's one thing having your high school friends who's
24:14
Speaker 2: sitting on the decks and the desk next to you
24:16
Speaker 2: kind of like disappear and find out that they're murdered.
24:19
Speaker 2: But it's another thing to find out it's the people
24:21
Speaker 2: on the on the desk on the other side of
24:23
Speaker 2: you that are the perpet faces. That's I'm in such
24:26
Speaker 2: cold blood and that's I mean, there's there's nothing to say.
24:28
Speaker 2: That's what it is.
24:29
Speaker 1: No, I mean, that's the that is the part that
24:32
Speaker 1: is just so hard to reconcile. So also, what I
24:35
Speaker 1: thought was really interesting is that Sheila's parent and Rachel's
24:39
Speaker 1: parents seemed to me from what what you know when watching,
24:43
Speaker 1: I feel like they were very polar opposite, right, So,
24:46
Speaker 1: where Rachel's parents were religious and strict, Sheila's mom apparently
24:51
Speaker 1: was very easy going. And that's well that's how it sounded.
24:55
Speaker 1: And I thought so even that we can't even point
24:58
Speaker 1: to like the parenting style, because it sounds like they
25:01
Speaker 1: were they did, they had these opposite parenting styles.
25:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many things in this that are kind
25:06
Speaker 2: of really because I think this is what everybody tries
25:08
Speaker 2: to kind of like grasp but straws. So you know,
25:10
Speaker 2: what could it possibly be? And Sheila's mum was quite
25:14
Speaker 2: permissive in some ways. I mean, I think that she
25:17
Speaker 2: was probably struggling as well. She was a single mum
25:20
Speaker 2: as well. She had a new boyfriend who I think
25:21
Speaker 2: was taking a lot of attention away from from Sheila
25:24
Speaker 2: as well. I don't think I personally don't think that
25:27
Speaker 2: Sheila was treated well by This is no excuse for
25:32
Speaker 2: any of this at all, but I don't was treated
25:35
Speaker 2: well by boys generally. I think the things that happened
25:39
Speaker 2: that she would twist and say oh yeah, you know,
25:41
Speaker 2: and then make out like she was promiscuous on purpose.
25:44
Speaker 2: I wonder whether in a post Me Too era we
25:47
Speaker 2: would kind of reframe what happened to her slightly differently.
25:50
Speaker 2: But I still don't think any of that is nothing
25:57
Speaker 2: at all.
26:12
Speaker 1: What about their their sexual relationship, She'll and Rachel, do
26:17
Speaker 1: you think that because it did sound like, you know,
26:20
Speaker 1: it sounded like Rachel was so afraid for that to
26:23
Speaker 1: come out, that they were also involved in a sexual relationship,
26:26
Speaker 1: and that maybe part of it was that they were
26:28
Speaker 1: so afraid that Skylar was going to out them. Yeah,
26:32
Speaker 1: but is that how much? What are you It's hard to.
26:35
Speaker 2: You know, like it's really hard. I think there's a
26:37
Speaker 2: few things about this. I'm not saying that there's nothing
26:39
Speaker 2: to that at all. However, I think it's it depends
26:43
Speaker 2: you can listen to the facts in both ways and
26:46
Speaker 2: kind of there's a lot of people who say, you know,
26:49
Speaker 2: were they really having a relationship or not? Was it
26:52
Speaker 2: just experimentation, of which there was a lot of things
26:54
Speaker 2: kind of going on at the time.
26:56
Speaker 1: And they said somebody one of their friends said it
26:58
Speaker 1: wasn't that stigmatized even though it was twenty twelve, that
27:02
Speaker 1: there were other same sex relationships going on at their school.
27:05
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, this is the thing.
27:07
Speaker 2: I think in some ways it was. I mean, it
27:09
Speaker 2: was twenty twelve, but it's still kind of I don't
27:12
Speaker 2: know whether it would be you know, would it be
27:14
Speaker 2: so bad that she would kill for that. I don't know.
27:17
Speaker 2: And also there's no actual Skyla was very supportive of
27:23
Speaker 2: people like that. There's no evidence that Skyla was this
27:25
Speaker 2: big homophobe and all this, you know, I mean.
27:28
Speaker 1: Oh no, not that. But even maybe she kept saying
27:31
Speaker 1: she has a lot of information that she could say there.
27:34
Speaker 1: But even if they were that scared, obviously this is
27:37
Speaker 1: shit that goes down in every high school every day.
27:40
Speaker 1: This is not that unusual. You know, there's nothing that
27:44
Speaker 1: I felt like while I was watching it, there was like, oh, okay,
27:48
Speaker 1: this is why they were so scared.
27:50
Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things as well that
27:51
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a you know, there's one argument
27:54
Speaker 2: as well that I mean, I've heard rumors of and
27:56
Speaker 2: I haven't had verified that she's had Rachel's had relationships,
27:59
Speaker 2: maybe even married another woman in prison, So you could
28:03
Speaker 2: argue that that's you know, evidence in one direction. But
28:06
Speaker 2: also this this angle about the lesbian relationship only came
28:13
Speaker 2: out when she was she did her first parole hearing,
28:17
Speaker 2: really and actually I think it was in a book.
28:20
Speaker 2: First of all, that I think there was a book
28:22
Speaker 2: that maybe hinted at it, and then after that she
28:25
Speaker 2: then brought it up in a parole hearing. But at
28:27
Speaker 2: the time, Rachel had all these opportunities, as did Sheila,
28:31
Speaker 2: to say, hey guys, it was a crime of passion
28:34
Speaker 2: and that they could have come up with all of
28:35
Speaker 2: this stuff, for she had so much opportunity to do it,
28:39
Speaker 2: and at no point any did she do that. You know,
28:42
Speaker 2: she didn't mention it once.
28:44
Speaker 1: But guess what, even without doing that, she's getting out
28:47
Speaker 1: in two years. What is that about? I know, I
28:50
Speaker 1: tried as adults, so explain to me that why is
28:54
Speaker 1: she only doing fifteen years? I guess that's another kind
28:58
Speaker 1: of question, right, But that I just with whatever what
29:01
Speaker 1: her lawyer said or did this crazy Listen, it's very
29:06
Speaker 1: tempting for me to call her names because I'm so
29:12
Speaker 1: disgusted right and say, from where I'm sitting, these are monsters.
29:16
Speaker 1: These are not human people. I can't accept the fact
29:19
Speaker 1: they're even human. But a much better person than I
29:22
Speaker 1: would be able to find the humanity somewhere. You had
29:26
Speaker 1: a way of doing that, even with what it was,
29:31
Speaker 1: right like, you were able to look into their humanity.
29:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, one of the things that's really I mean,
29:38
Speaker 2: in some ways, the fact that they both pleaded guilty,
29:41
Speaker 2: means that Dave and Mary was saved a long drawn
29:45
Speaker 2: out trial, you know, so there was no trial. But
29:48
Speaker 2: also the flip side of that is because there was
29:51
Speaker 2: no trial, there's no investigation of the why. You know,
29:56
Speaker 2: there's like they kind of they've got the how it
29:58
Speaker 2: was done and what happened, and so therefore in order
30:02
Speaker 2: to convict them, they didn't know need to know the
30:04
Speaker 2: motive really, so nobody ever asked that, nobody dug into it,
30:07
Speaker 2: nobody ever did all these things like digging into their
30:09
Speaker 2: past and asked put them on trial and put them
30:12
Speaker 2: on the stand and ask them why they did and
30:13
Speaker 2: all that.
30:15
Speaker 1: Wow.
30:16
Speaker 2: And so that's part of the intrigue of all of
30:18
Speaker 2: this as well, is that. But it's also it's kind
30:22
Speaker 2: of almost I know, I don't know. I can't speak
30:24
Speaker 2: for David Mary and what it must be like for them,
30:26
Speaker 2: but it's almost kind of painful that we don't know
30:29
Speaker 2: any reasons.
30:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering if it was a mixed bag, right,
30:32
Speaker 1: Like probably glad that they were convicted so quickly, but
30:36
Speaker 1: also so many unanswered questions. Right, what do you think, Claire,
30:41
Speaker 1: you are the closest to this, what do you think, like,
30:44
Speaker 1: are they just were they born evil? No?
30:47
Speaker 2: I don't, well I don't. I'm as somebody once said,
30:50
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as an evil person, but just
30:51
Speaker 2: evil people can do evil things. And I remember speaking
30:55
Speaker 2: to somebody about it, a disreturney who I met on
31:01
Speaker 2: a flight once, and I remember them talking to them
31:02
Speaker 2: about it and saying, and they said that the chances
31:06
Speaker 2: of them being psychopaths or sociopaths or whatever it is
31:09
Speaker 2: is so small, particularly for women. And I can't tell
31:14
Speaker 2: you why they did this. I think part of there's
31:18
Speaker 2: so many small reasons. I think part of it is
31:21
Speaker 2: that is being that age. Not that all teenagers are
31:24
Speaker 2: capable of this, but there is something about that age
31:28
Speaker 2: when you just your brave consequences are a little bit arbitrary,
31:33
Speaker 2: and they're a bit abstract. You know, you don't really
31:35
Speaker 2: understand kind of you know what's going on. You think
31:37
Speaker 2: you're an adult, and you behave like an adult, and
31:39
Speaker 2: you quite frankly look like an adult from the outside
31:42
Speaker 2: a lot. But if you you know, as if you've
31:45
Speaker 2: had like teenagers, you'll know one minute that you'll be
31:48
Speaker 2: conversing with them like they're kind of like thirty and
31:50
Speaker 2: you'll think, what's brilliant, and the next minute they'll behave
31:53
Speaker 2: like a toddler, and it's it is a bit like that.
31:56
Speaker 1: But Claire, it's that it's the brutality of the murder.
31:59
Speaker 1: It's oh, that's the part that I can't reconcile.
32:03
Speaker 2: No, I can't say that. I've got to be I
32:05
Speaker 2: can't understand that either, and I have. And it's the
32:08
Speaker 2: repeatedness of it, and that I can only think is
32:11
Speaker 2: it's it's an evil, evil act, evil act what they do.
32:14
Speaker 2: I don't know.
32:15
Speaker 1: Again, I'm not I'm just not that good of a
32:17
Speaker 1: woman that I could. I can't find the I can't
32:20
Speaker 1: find humanity in them. And I don't think you could
32:22
Speaker 1: have done a better job of explaining their humanity and
32:27
Speaker 1: describing their humanity. I'm not talking about Skyler, obviously, I
32:32
Speaker 1: love her and I've met her and I'm mourning her
32:34
Speaker 1: loss now, you know. But like that for Sheila and Rachel,
32:39
Speaker 1: I am. I can't figure out how these are human
32:43
Speaker 1: girls and yet you represented them in such a wonderful
32:48
Speaker 1: like it's the whole situation in a human way. With
32:50
Speaker 1: all of the friends, they were all friends, they all
32:53
Speaker 1: did things together, Rachel was in theater, you know, and
32:57
Speaker 1: they have these boyfriends and crazy.
33:00
Speaker 2: It's really hard as a filmmaker actually, because in one
33:03
Speaker 2: way you want to go, these are just evil people
33:05
Speaker 2: and we mustn't kind of like give them screen time.
33:07
Speaker 2: And I was particularly nervous about giving them a voice,
33:10
Speaker 2: you know, with actors as well, and that was you know,
33:12
Speaker 2: I was because I really wanted Skyler to have a
33:15
Speaker 2: voice throughout this, but I didn't. I didn't want their
33:17
Speaker 2: voices to become overwhelming or have more than Skyler. And
33:20
Speaker 2: you know, it's so easy to give that, you know,
33:23
Speaker 2: it's not their story. I didn't want it to be
33:25
Speaker 2: their story. However, at the same time, you know, we
33:29
Speaker 2: realized quite early on that in order to show how
33:33
Speaker 2: how this had happened to an extent, maybe not why,
33:35
Speaker 2: but how it had happened, you had to understand why
33:39
Speaker 2: Skyler loved these people, because she loved them both.
33:42
Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting, that's so interesting.
33:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to kind of get that and understand
33:47
Speaker 2: why why they all love each other, you know, why
33:49
Speaker 2: they had this intense relationship so and Skyler, you know,
33:54
Speaker 2: it wasn't an need, you know, she she loved them
33:56
Speaker 2: for a reason, because they were funny, they were engaging,
34:00
Speaker 2: made a laugh, and.
34:00
Speaker 1: I saw all their like, all their little messages to
34:03
Speaker 1: each other reminded me of the messages that my daughter particularly,
34:08
Speaker 1: not my son as much, but it was love you
34:09
Speaker 1: love you, love you, love you, love you, you know, your
34:12
Speaker 1: girly bestie, bestie, bestie, like just the silly sh that
34:16
Speaker 1: girls that age, you know, right, And you got to
34:20
Speaker 1: see not only Skylar's messages, but the girls and the
34:24
Speaker 1: way that they wrote. I mean, is there any way, Claire,
34:27
Speaker 1: you know, parents out there, I don't even know. I
34:31
Speaker 1: have no idea how you would even answer this is this?
34:35
Speaker 1: Is there anything in there, any kind of insight in
34:38
Speaker 1: this in terms of the story, not just in terms
34:40
Speaker 1: of how you represented it, that would like help a parent, Okay,
34:44
Speaker 1: this is something to look for.
34:46
Speaker 2: I think it's just more about like open lines of communication,
34:50
Speaker 2: you know, It's more about kind of knowing that they
34:54
Speaker 2: I've got to say, there was something very unique that
34:56
Speaker 2: happened in this to this, just this say, this particular group,
35:01
Speaker 2: this generation, this particular era twenty twelve was particularly unique
35:05
Speaker 2: because it was the era when social media was brand
35:10
Speaker 2: new and adults just didn't know what was going on?
35:12
Speaker 2: Right right, I go to talks at my daughter's school
35:16
Speaker 2: about how evil social media is, and we you know,
35:19
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that we know better, because horrendous
35:22
Speaker 2: things happen all the time still, but there is a
35:24
Speaker 2: little bit more of an understanding than that it was
35:29
Speaker 2: the wild West entirely. So I'm kind of explaining that
35:33
Speaker 2: because I don't want to be like, oh, you know,
35:36
Speaker 2: David Morrow, whoever, their parents should have been listening more.
35:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very interesting because I actually, yeah, I mean
35:41
Speaker 1: I felt that. I felt that about, you know, the
35:43
Speaker 1: fact that even the police didn't understand it, didn't understand
35:46
Speaker 1: the social media of it. One thing I do want
35:48
Speaker 1: to ask you is that they found the phone records
35:53
Speaker 1: Sheila and Rachel and put them I think in what
35:58
Speaker 1: is it called black Backxville, Blacksville, right at four in
36:01
Speaker 1: the morning or something. Where were those Why did it
36:04
Speaker 1: take so long for them to oh, uncover those phone records?
36:08
Speaker 2: I mean for status, Like, I think there was a
36:10
Speaker 2: lot of things with the police that was slow for
36:12
Speaker 2: various reasons. But even when they did kind of start
36:16
Speaker 2: kind of things kicking in because we were asking this question,
36:20
Speaker 2: they were arriving on like CD ROMs. I mean, you forget,
36:23
Speaker 2: it's like twenty twelve and you think was like the
36:24
Speaker 2: other day, but they had like they still had those
36:27
Speaker 2: like those discs, do you know what do you remember?
36:30
Speaker 2: And that's how the phone records were arriving on a
36:32
Speaker 2: disc in the post.
36:33
Speaker 1: I guess I thought just because the FBI got involved.
36:36
Speaker 1: I get it, what the social media of it all,
36:38
Speaker 1: h was hard to sort of for them to key into.
36:41
Speaker 1: But phone records I would have thought would have at
36:43
Speaker 1: least in twenty twelve have been.
36:45
Speaker 2: No, they were still they were they were emailing the
36:47
Speaker 2: company and they were sending them back in a you know,
36:50
Speaker 2: on a CD ROM and then they were being kind
36:52
Speaker 2: of printed.
36:53
Speaker 1: At Yeah, but you did think that there were some
36:55
Speaker 1: things that went down slowly in terms of law enforcement.
36:58
Speaker 2: It's there's a lot of frustrations when doing this, and
37:01
Speaker 2: I think anybody watching this series will be kind of like,
37:04
Speaker 2: why didn't they see this sooner? And it's and it's
37:06
Speaker 2: so easy to see things in.
37:08
Speaker 1: Hindsight twenty twenty, right, it is.
37:10
Speaker 2: But also I just you know, it's those girls I
37:15
Speaker 2: think were running rings around the police. You know, they
37:18
Speaker 2: really really were and and and quite frankly, if there
37:22
Speaker 2: wasn't a confession, you know, would this have been solved.
37:26
Speaker 2: It's you know, it's kind of it's hard to.
37:28
Speaker 1: Know really and do you think that is because in part,
37:32
Speaker 1: it's just too hard to believe. It's just too hard
37:35
Speaker 1: for even the police to get to think that this
37:39
Speaker 1: could have been the reality of the situation. And then
37:42
Speaker 1: to kids, I forget what, I'm sorry. What was the
37:45
Speaker 1: female detective's name, Jess Collbank Jess. I felt like Jess
37:49
Speaker 1: was the most She really was sort of the most insightful.
37:52
Speaker 1: And you said earlier maybe because she's a woman, but
37:55
Speaker 1: she it felt to me like she was the one
37:57
Speaker 1: that really was there was an inkling for her that
38:02
Speaker 1: this is probably maybe, yeah, what had happened.
38:05
Speaker 2: I think also there was this genuine belief from the
38:09
Speaker 2: police and the FBI that the girls were victims, and
38:14
Speaker 2: so they were tiptoeing.
38:15
Speaker 1: Around Dylan and Derek.
38:17
Speaker 2: Is that because of Dylan Derek? But also I think
38:22
Speaker 2: just generally they were kind of thinking, you know, these
38:24
Speaker 2: are young, impressionable girls. They probably even David Mary thought that, right, So,
38:30
Speaker 2: but this is you know, exactly exactly and what.
38:32
Speaker 1: About Dylan and Derek. By the way, was there any
38:35
Speaker 1: justice for Dylan and Derek? I know, maybe they weren't,
38:37
Speaker 1: maybe they weren't the straightest kids in the world. But
38:40
Speaker 1: when I was watching, I was like, Wow, so they
38:42
Speaker 1: didn't do the bank robbery and they were no way
38:45
Speaker 1: responsible for this.
38:46
Speaker 2: That nobody's ever been charged for the bank robbery. Okay,
38:50
Speaker 2: that's all we can say. Okay, is that nobody's ever
38:53
Speaker 2: been charged for the bank robbery.
38:55
Speaker 1: And where are they now?
38:56
Speaker 2: I believe they're in the same area, but I don't.
38:59
Speaker 2: I don't know.
39:00
Speaker 1: I mean that felt very they what they must have
39:03
Speaker 1: gone through. Did you ask them to be interviewer?
39:06
Speaker 2: I think we did reach out to them kind of
39:08
Speaker 2: early on. I think somebody I think somebody from the
39:12
Speaker 2: team reached out to them kind of early on. But
39:15
Speaker 2: I think understandably, it's not something that they probably wanted
39:18
Speaker 2: to be involved in in that.
39:19
Speaker 1: In that regard, no, I would understand that too. Yeah,
39:23
Speaker 1: so how does this you know? Now you move on
39:26
Speaker 1: to your next project?
39:28
Speaker 2: Yeah?
39:30
Speaker 1: Do you are you is there residual pain from this
39:33
Speaker 1: or is there you know, has it affected your life
39:35
Speaker 1: or were you able to compartmentalize?
39:38
Speaker 2: I don't think you ever can. I think it always does,
39:40
Speaker 2: and it and it affects you in ways that you
39:42
Speaker 2: don't kind of imagine. It's something that I did watch it.
39:45
Speaker 2: You know, my daughter did watch it as we kind
39:47
Speaker 2: of went along, So it wasn't a big shock when
39:49
Speaker 2: she saw it, and and we talked about the issues
39:51
Speaker 2: in it, and and that's you know, that that's something
39:54
Speaker 2: that kind of we've discussed a lot. And and I'm
39:59
Speaker 2: not worried. I mean, I'm not genuinely worried about her
40:01
Speaker 2: being her best friends. But we talked about the importance
40:05
Speaker 2: about talking openly about feelings and about heightened emotions, I suppose,
40:10
Speaker 2: and in that kind of a way, and how things
40:13
Speaker 2: can feel a little bit out of control sometimes. So
40:17
Speaker 2: that you know, I hope that's kind of improved that
40:19
Speaker 2: relationship in that kind of a way. Something always stays
40:23
Speaker 2: with you. I tell you what. Morgantown, West Virginia is
40:25
Speaker 2: always going to be a part of my heart. I
40:27
Speaker 2: was there kind of so many times over the course
40:29
Speaker 2: of ten months, and so you know, it's sort of
40:32
Speaker 2: a cliche, but I've left a little bit of my
40:34
Speaker 2: heart over there is kind of it's a beautiful, beautiful
40:36
Speaker 2: part of the world. That's definitely kind of made a difference.
40:40
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think caution. I think it's very easy
40:44
Speaker 2: for us to be like I don't think there are
40:48
Speaker 2: any easy answers to this story, which is part of
40:51
Speaker 2: the reason why I'm really drawn to it. I don't
40:54
Speaker 2: think there are any easy morals. There's no kind of like,
40:57
Speaker 2: keep your kids off social media and they won't be
40:58
Speaker 2: stabed by their friends. There's not It's not that kind
41:00
Speaker 2: of clearat's This was a unique set of circumstances in
41:05
Speaker 2: so many ways, you know, the social media aspect of it,
41:08
Speaker 2: the kind of the you know, the fact that it
41:09
Speaker 2: was kind of effectively bullying on social media, the fact
41:12
Speaker 2: that they were these teenagers, the fact that these things
41:14
Speaker 2: were going on in their lives, and I mean so
41:17
Speaker 2: many things that so many things kind of like came
41:20
Speaker 2: together for this to happen, and it was a particularly
41:22
Speaker 2: unique set of circumstances. But more open discussions, I think
41:26
Speaker 2: is the is the kind of one takeaway that I'll
41:29
Speaker 2: get from this.
41:30
Speaker 1: I think that for me was two things. It was
41:33
Speaker 1: at the end of it frustrating, and yet that's what
41:36
Speaker 1: made it so fascinating that I don't know I watched it.
41:41
Speaker 1: I watched it again, and I'm probably gonna watch it
41:44
Speaker 1: again because I'm obsessed. But that I just there are
41:48
Speaker 1: no answers. That's what is. You can ponder that. And
41:51
Speaker 1: I have been now, you know, since I since watching it,
41:55
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of it. But they all you.
41:58
Speaker 1: I just think you did a stupid job of showing
42:01
Speaker 1: the humanity. It was a situation that doesn't feel human,
42:06
Speaker 1: you know.
42:06
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you well painfully you have to kind
42:09
Speaker 2: of show it in order to be able to show
42:11
Speaker 2: the heartbreak, don't you have to understand that in order
42:14
Speaker 2: to be able to understand the heartbreak that Skyla went through.
42:17
Speaker 1: But even watching Rachel's mom in the courtroom, you know,
42:20
Speaker 1: you showed so you showing that was so interesting to me,
42:25
Speaker 1: not just interesting, heartbreaking to me. And talk about I
42:30
Speaker 1: guess unconditional love of a mother, yeah, you know. And
42:35
Speaker 1: you know I've read some books I was selling our producers,
42:39
Speaker 1: some fiction books and written in the voice of the
42:42
Speaker 1: mother of you know, serial killers, and it always goes
42:47
Speaker 1: back to this unconditional love. And you kind of even
42:52
Speaker 1: though even though you were so angry at her, Yeah,
42:55
Speaker 1: whatever she did or didn't do, you felt her pain.
42:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would, wouldn't we if our if our kids
43:02
Speaker 2: did something horrendous. I mean, I know, I mean, you know,
43:05
Speaker 2: I know that you would still love them.
43:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, no matter what period. Yeah, it's just it's just
43:10
Speaker 1: it's just the.
43:10
Speaker 2: Way completely completely.
43:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well you just tell me a little bit.
43:15
Speaker 1: I'm sure I could talk to you forever. But what
43:17
Speaker 1: are your next because now I have to follow you
43:19
Speaker 1: like a crazy person? What are your next projects?
43:22
Speaker 2: Oh, I've got like two projects at the moment that
43:24
Speaker 2: I'm juggling at the moment to see what they are,
43:26
Speaker 2: and I can't talk about them, And I say, they're
43:29
Speaker 2: very like different. But I think the thing that I
43:34
Speaker 2: am always drawn to is things that don't have kind
43:36
Speaker 2: of black and white answers, you know, that are kind
43:39
Speaker 2: of a little bit on the edge and a little
43:40
Speaker 2: bit where you know you Yeah, they don't have an easy,
43:46
Speaker 2: easy answer. I think maybe yeah, the friends like these.
43:50
Speaker 2: One of the things that did attract me was the
43:52
Speaker 2: fact that although it's frustrating the fact that there's no
43:55
Speaker 2: kind of like clear motive to it all, but actually
43:59
Speaker 2: I find that kind of more interesting because it makes
44:01
Speaker 2: you dig deeper, you know, and like kind of to
44:03
Speaker 2: try and to try and kind of get to that. So, yeah,
44:06
Speaker 2: the projects I've got kind of like bubbling away at
44:08
Speaker 2: the moment are both in that kind of vein.
44:12
Speaker 1: Are you Are you able to tell me if they're
44:13
Speaker 1: true crime?
44:14
Speaker 2: No? Nothing does true crime? Actually it's yeah, no, nothing
44:18
Speaker 2: that's true crime.
44:18
Speaker 1: It's not going to be your new genre. It's not
44:20
Speaker 1: going to be eager.
44:21
Speaker 2: I would never say never. But then I didn't approach
44:24
Speaker 2: this as a true crime as such. I never It
44:26
Speaker 2: was only in hindsight I was like, oh, yeah, we're
44:29
Speaker 2: making a true crime. I just felt like we were
44:31
Speaker 2: making a story about uh, you know, Skylnis and her
44:37
Speaker 2: disappearance and then her story, and you know, that's a
44:40
Speaker 2: sort of that's why we tried so hard to make
44:42
Speaker 2: it feel much more like a teen movie than than
44:44
Speaker 2: than like like a true crime, you know. And and
44:47
Speaker 2: we and of course we use kind of true crime
44:50
Speaker 2: tropes and techniques to cut you know that that kind
44:53
Speaker 2: of work, you know, And and we totally use those,
44:56
Speaker 2: but they weren't the starting point at any point. The
44:59
Speaker 2: starting point was like, how do we get Skyla's voice
45:02
Speaker 2: through this? How can we give her a voice back?
45:05
Speaker 2: You know? How can we make the audience understand what
45:08
Speaker 2: it was like to be her and like to be
45:10
Speaker 2: her friends back you know, back then, rather than kind
45:14
Speaker 2: of like put the audience in the kind of their now.
45:16
Speaker 2: How can we help the audience solve this crime. It's
45:18
Speaker 2: kind of like it's a crime that's kind of out there,
45:20
Speaker 2: you know, as you said, it's you know, you can
45:21
Speaker 2: google it and see it's it's a relatively relatively kind
45:25
Speaker 2: of well known. So we definitely wanted to bring something
45:28
Speaker 2: totally different to it, you know, and something that we
45:30
Speaker 2: felt we felt hadn't been done in this in this
45:34
Speaker 2: way before.
45:34
Speaker 1: Well I've never seen anything like it. And Skyler will
45:38
Speaker 1: be and her parents will be in my prayers. I
45:40
Speaker 1: will literally get choked up saying that to you. That's
45:42
Speaker 1: the effect it had on me, her parents just so,
45:48
Speaker 1: I mean, if that's any consolation to them, your your
45:51
Speaker 1: work has touched me, I can and I'm very great.
45:54
Speaker 1: Thank you.
45:55
Speaker 2: It means so much. She really really does.
45:59
Speaker 1: All right, Claire, thank you for joining us. Thank you,
46:01
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. We appreciate you lovely