Latest / Marci talks money (and life) / Living with Mental Illness: Challenges, Support, and Hope with Maddie Andrews
Transcript
- Marci Grossman (00:20) Hello, I am Money Marci and welcome. Today's special guest is Maddie is a mental health advocate, an MSW, which is Masters in Social Work student, peer support specialist, nonprofit founder, and person living with serious mental illness. After facing death in 2023, she dedicated her life to healing, not just for herself, but for others. If you're wondering why are we talking about this on a podcast about money and life, let's start with, in this country, mental health is not well supported. Like all health related care, it is expensive and time consuming. And the state of your mental health has an impact on your overall health and wellbeing, on your relationships, on your focus, on your education, on your job performance. Mental health connects significantly with your financial opportunities, expenses and life and I am thrilled to welcome you, Maddie. Maddie Andrews (01:17) Thank you so much for having me and opening up this important conversation. Marci Grossman (01:21) Finding someone like you who can put this into a perspective that so many people can't. As a professional, as well as being a person who's gone through this, you have perspective and story from so many sides that a lot of us just don't even know how to access. And people with mental illness don't necessarily know how to advocate for themselves, don't know what they can ask for, feel like they're alone. I mean, all of these things. to have you here, what you're doing as an advocate. it's powerful stuff. Maddie Andrews (01:52) Thank you. I'm excited to get it out there. I think it's an important conversation to be had. There's millions of people living with mental illness in our country and our resources for this are not where they need to be. They're not equitable, they're not affordable, and they're not accessible. Marci Grossman (02:09) Let's try and take this vaguely in chronological order, because I know we're gonna meander. But you started having struggles at four years old. Maddie Andrews (02:12) Hehehehehe I did. So I had a really traumatic experience happen to me when I was four. I initially told an adult that was in my life and they quickly shut me down, told me it was my fault, told me if I told my parents that I would be in a lot of trouble. so I didn't say anything and it really created PTSD for me at the age of four. And I stopped sleeping. I became overly compliant. I became extremely anxious. I started worrying all the time and this was all very much driven by this assault that happened to me. Marci Grossman (02:53) I don't know that my apology means much, but that's not what a four-year-old should go through. For all of us adults, I'm sorry that we failed you. And I hope for anyone who's listening out there, if the first adult doesn't listen, find another adult. If there's a true story you need to share that you need to get help, keep asking. Maddie Andrews (02:59) Right. Thank you. Yeah, definitely. I wish I hadn't been shut down so I could have received adequate treatment because that's followed me my entire life and I really couldn't even start talking about this until I was 35 years old. Marci Grossman (03:29) Before 35, you had other issues that happened as Maddie Andrews (03:33) in middle school I started developing psychosis, meaning I had delusions, paranoia, hallucinations. I also had rapid mood changes from mania to depression. I had acts of compulsion, compulsive thinking. And because I had been coached that if I disclosed things like this, I would be in trouble. Initially, I didn't tell anybody, even though the symptoms were pretty severe. Marci Grossman (03:59) And nobody in your life noticed it, not at school, not at home, not anywhere. Maddie Andrews (04:03) I had gotten really well in public of wearing this mask, right? I knew the appropriate way to act in public, but when I went home one minute I would cry, one minute I would yell, one minute I was happy, one minute I was sad. And my parents were observing this. My mom called me headstrong. My dad just kind of went with the flows. And you know, a child in middle school has mood swings anyways. puberty can make that happen. And I think they were associating a lot of that with that phase of life. But as it went on, my symptoms became worse and worse and it did become a topic of conversation in my house. Marci Grossman (04:39) and that's throughout middle school or into high school. Maddie Andrews (04:43) In middle school, nobody said anything. When I was in high school when I was 14, I read a magazine article because when you're a child, you only know what you know. You think everybody's the same. You want to be quote normal, whatever that looks like for a middle schooler. But I read this magazine article and the young woman in the article had OCD and I was like, maybe this part of me is different because I can relate here. You know, my compulsive behaviors and my compulsive thinking like, is this not normal? So I showed my mom and she did take me to a psychiatrist where they did diagnose me with OCD, but I hadn't yet come to the point where I could articulate the psychosis, the mania, the depressive feelings. And throughout high school, this really escalated. Marci Grossman (05:28) What support did you get for the OCD at that point in time and how did the psychiatrist not notice anything else? Maddie Andrews (05:33) I wasn't articulating this at 14 and their initial thing was medication, right? Like this was many moons ago. you know, medications without holistic care was more popular than it is today. Not to say it's not today in some places, but they were like, take this pill and you'll be better. My mom was like, absolutely. This is great. My dad was like, no way. And I wanted that magic fix. I thought a pill was the answer. So was like, absolutely I wanna take this. And I went through those motions and I thought it helped initially, but when I was 16, based on my observations from my parents and my doctor, they changed my diagnosis to what's called mood disorder, not otherwise specified, along with generalized anxiety. And this came with new medications, including narcotics at the age of 16. Marci Grossman (06:28) Wow, that's pretty hardcore because in this day and age you can't get narcotics if your leg is falling off. they were giving... Wow. That shows how the world changes and that's not going to help your mood and mental health issues. Maddie Andrews (06:30) I'm talking to you. I know, they were very quick. They were trying to treat the anxiety as I was having such bad panic attacks and so Xanax was very popular when I was about 16, 17 and they were quick to give it to me and I went through the motions of, taking my SSRI, taking my Xanax and I was doing okay with it at first but when I was 17, I had my wisdom teeth cut out and I got dry socket and I was in a lot of pain. So they started prescribing me a ton of opiates. And at this time I was severely depressed. thought people were stalking me. I had terrible delusions. I thought people lived in my bushes. And I thought the Xanax and the opiates calmed that down. So I overindulged and it became a cycle of self-medication for me at 17 years old. Marci Grossman (07:32) and from what you said, it's still almost two decades before you actually got the real diagnosis and the real help you needed. Maddie Andrews (07:38) Right, I ended up going to drug treatment facility when I was 21 in 2009. My first hospitalization was right before that when I was 19 and my diagnosis changed. It would change again later. But when I was 19 and hospitalized for self harm, suicidal ideations and mania and depression, they diagnosed me with ⁓ bipolar one disorder. I still wasn't getting treatment for the psychosis I was having at that time, but they did start treating me with some pretty heavy duty medications, a lot of them. And it became a vicious cycle of side effects, another medication for this side effect. And I lost my hair, my weight ballooned, my thyroid stopped working, I developed tremors, like I was 19 years old. and all of these heavy duty things started happening to me. Marci Grossman (08:29) At what point in time did you get your degree in education? Were you at college at this point in time? Maddie Andrews (08:34) I went to college at 17 and when I was 19 right before I was hospitalized I had to drop out. was in severe state with my mental health and substance use that I wasn't able to go to class. I wasn't able to leave my house. So I went home and was hospitalized and I got a job afterwards and was kind of just surviving at this point. I was seeing a psychiatrist. I was taking medications and eventually got sober. but I didn't go back to school until I was about 22, 23. And I did go for education because I wanted to work with kids with mental health diagnosis because I felt like I understood, like I've been there. I understand what they're feeling. Not to say I know everybody's journey, but there's a level of understanding when you walk that path too. Marci Grossman (09:25) Okay, and so you did work in education? Maddie Andrews (09:28) I did, I spent seven years as a lead self-contained classroom teacher. I suffered a lot personally, but did great at the job. You know, my job was my soul coping skill and I put everything I had into it. And I really heavily wore that mask in public. So my coworkers, my bosses, my students were unaware of my mental health diagnosis at this time. But when I went home, I was just in pieces. I was not functioning. And in 2022, I ended up quitting my job because I just couldn't do it anymore. It was my life or the job. Even though that job was my identity, I didn't have it in me to do it anymore, so I resigned. And I found work still in the field of education, but for a nonprofit agency, and it gave me little bit more leeway, a little less stress. So I was able to spend some time focusing on myself a little bit, trying to find recovery. At this time, my diagnosis had changed to what's called Schizoaffected Bipolar Type, PTSD, OCD, and generalized anxiety. And what that means is I live with symptoms of both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. In 2023, I was working at the nonprofit. I was on 10 to 15 meds maxed out, having debilitating side effects. I couldn't process emotions. I was unmotivated. I weighed 420 pounds. I mean, when my mother died, I couldn't cry. I was so numb. And my doctor called me in April of 2023 and said, hey, there's a new medicine. And I was like, oh, this again. All right, I'll try it. And it was a miracle. I started to process emotions. I started to feel motivated. I started to having all these feelings that I hadn't felt in so many years and I was thriving So my doctor said well, let's take you off some of these other medications. But when you live with schizoaffected bipolar type, you have to treat mania depression and psychosis Well, the new drug was FDA regulated to treat depression and psychosis not mania so she took me off my mania medication and I didn't understand the symptoms to begin with because it had been a while since I was manic and when I initially reached out with some symptoms, she kind of brushed me off a little bit until it was too late. And not only was I manic, I was entering a severe psychotic state and when you're manic, you're impulsive, you initially feel very happy and energetic. It can be hard to sleep. It can be hard to make good decisions. You're very rash. So, I was very impulsive and I was very happy and people around me didn't understand what was happening. And by the time I did, it was a little too late. I put my foot down for the first time in my life and I said, this is unsafe. This is not okay. I need help. And not only was I written out of work to get treatment, but my husband was written out of work with me so that he could be my 24 -7 caretaker. Marci Grossman (12:16) And when you say written out of work, they kick you out or this is a family medical leave thing, what does that mean? Maddie Andrews (12:21) Yeah, my agency didn't have FMLA, so I went on short-term disability, but I wasn't given disability initially. There were some complications with my paperwork. I was not cognitive enough to file everybody's paperwork on my end, and my doctor was thinking it was one way, my job was thinking it was one way, and nobody was meeting in the middle. So I was just taking my PTO initially while I was sick. And I did that for quite a few months and my treatment initially was narcotics and that didn't work. And so eventually she upped a medication called lithium and what lithium is, it's a heavy metal used to treat bipolar disorder. And part of lithium treatment is getting routine blood work. You have to check your levels in your blood. You have to check your kidney. You have to check your liver. And she didn't do that. She upped my lithium. And at this point I was only seeing life in the form of hallucinations. I was bedridden. And when she upped my lithium I lost the ability to talk, swallow, use a toilet. I was in diapers. And my husband had no idea what was happening to me. And he would put me on video call with her and I was barely able to speak and drooling because I couldn't swallow. And I'll see you in two weeks. Just rest. We didn't know what was happening and we were not getting the supports we needed to handle it. Marci Grossman (13:45) so you must have ended up somehow getting the right support after this. You hit rock bottom or you decided to go to another doctor or... Maddie Andrews (13:49) Right. My husband ended up taking me to a local mental hospital and then quickly told him, this is out of our scope of work, she needs to go to the emergency room. And by the time I got in triage and they got blood work and they got all the tests and looked at my lithium levels, they were like, I was being combative, I was difficult to treat from the brain injury I was having. And they looked me in my face and said, if you are not compliant, you are gonna die. And I didn't have the whereabouts to comprehend that, but my husband did. And so their initial reaction was to call poison control, which was the right thing to do. Who ordered fluids, that's the first course of treatment for lithium toxicity. So they're pumping me full of all these fluids, but it's so many that it enlarged my heart and it started to fail. And when you continue fluids, when your heart is failing, it pumps into your lungs. So the bottom half of both of my lungs collapsed. and the lithium still wasn't getting out of my system. So poison control ordered dialysis and I ended up with two rounds of dialysis to get the lithium out of my body. But the problem was when they got it clear is I wasn't responsive. And there's a diagnosis called silent syndrome that can come along with lithium toxicity, which basically means I was going to get worse and never recover. I was not taking care of myself. I was not walking. I was not talking. And it looked like at this point, this was my future and my husband was grieving, my family was grieving and I spent two weeks like this in the ICU just tied to a bed unresponsive. And it wasn't until the last day that I started to wake up and try to talk in sentences and PT was teaching me how to walk and they eventually transferred me back to the mental hospital when it was certain that the ICU had done all they can and The hope really arises here. I couldn't write, but they gave me pen and paper and I taught myself how to write my name and there's no cell phones there. So somebody had written down numbers for a landline and I practiced reading and inputting, reading and inputting. When I learned how to dial a phone, I practiced talking and I really worked hard to rehab myself because I wasn't given the supports from an all around perspective that I truly needed. Marci Grossman (16:07) this is crazy and you're here and that's amazing. And now you're going back to school to get your social work degree and you're working to support people with mental illness and be their advocate. I guess I'm going to ask the financial question, which is, are you ever going to finish paying off all of these medical bills? Maddie Andrews (16:10) I'm here! I'm recovered! I am. I am. Marci Grossman (16:29) for all this treatment that nearly killed you. I can't even imagine, I hope your husband or you had great insurance, Maddie Andrews (16:36) So living with mental illness and having great insurance, you have to, like you can't go through life without having great insurance. And at the time I was working where I had insurance do my job and the insurance wasn't great until you met your deductible. And once you met your deductible, it was free. And when this happened to me, it just so happens I met my deductible. So I didn't have to pay for my quarter of a million dollar hospital bill. But that didn't last forever and today I don't work at that job. I work at a different job and I'm in between jobs so I'm paying for insurance out of pocket and that's so expensive. mental health care in general is expensive and I didn't choose to live with mental illness and it's difficult for me to understand sometimes why do I have so many extra financial barriers to achieve recovery, to stay in recovery for something that I didn't choose to live with. Marci Grossman (17:33) Right. something people need to understand is, first off, to get the treatment you need and the medications and the continuing therapy monitor your mental health and emotional health throughout this, as well as to monitor and manage your medications because They're continually adjusting, I would assume, as life changes, as new drugs come out, as you adjust to them, so your system needs something different to get those results. You're paying for all of these. This is an expense and you've got the time to go to the doctor's office. And does that impact your ability to get the job you want to have, to be able to go to the job 40 hours a week or whatever, depending on the job and how structured it is? Maddie Andrews (18:03) Right. Marci Grossman (18:18) These are financial issues, challenges that come up because of mental health. Maddie Andrews (18:23) And even if you have insurance, it's no guarantee they're going to cover everything. my medications require me to have blood work. Well, on my last insurance, they wouldn't cover blood work. So every time I had to get routine levels checked, that was an expense out of my pocket. And when I changed insurances recently, I chose this very expensive plan because they stated they would cover my very expensive medications. And when I went to fill said medication, it was denied. and I had to jump through barriers to get it approved and then they wanted $1500 a month with insurance for a medication that I cannot live without. And I begged, I pleaded, I found coupon codes and I got it down to $300 but that's still an astronomical amount of money for something that's not my choice, right? I've tried generics, I've tried older medications and they don't work for me. It just so happens that I require these new type of drugs that are very expensive. Like without insurance it's like two to $4,000 a month. So it's unattainable if you don't have insurance and a lot of insurances won't pay for it at all. They talk about, yeah, you can take this medication. There's a coupon code, but why is it that I have to shop for my medical needs with a coupon? Marci Grossman (19:41) Or even just going to different pharmacies. For my health insurance, there are certain pharmacies that it covers my medications and other pharmacies. They're like, well, you're effectively out of network. They're buying the same drug from the same company. It's just who owns that pharmacy. And that makes the difference as to what I pay for prescriptions. Maddie Andrews (19:56) Right. Marci Grossman (20:04) What we do with health insurance, what we do with medical care in this country financially is, it's just a huge burden. Maddie Andrews (20:12) It is a burden and like I attend therapy. I was attending therapy once a week before I changed insurances, but my therapist no longer takes my insurance, but I love her. She's great. She's accessible. She's equitable. And I wanted to keep her. So I had to back down to once a month because it's $125 a pop out of pocket. And I can't afford to do that once a week, but I have to attend therapy. Like that's just part of my life. Marci Grossman (20:40) I don't know if this kind of goes into your circle of things at all, but I know that during COVID all of a sudden there were not enough therapists in the world. And I don't know if that barrier has been corrected, if there are more therapists or less people needing therapy or just getting in to find a therapist is still a struggle. Maddie Andrews (21:02) There is still a shortage of therapists in our country, just like there's a shortage of medical providers. I mean, if you go see a specialist, how long are you waiting on that wait list? We need to make our system in training these therapists and training these medical professionals more accessible and affordable so that we can have more equitable providers. Marci Grossman (21:22) Right, I do want to say for the audience who might be listening that says, well, why did you keep your therapist as opposed to going another one? You've heard me say here before that if you're going to a financial professional, it has to be one that gels with you. It has to be someone that you are comfortable with their approach, that you are comfortable with all those other things. With a therapist, I imagine that's even more important. And I expect at this point in time, you've met a few therapists and know, no, this is Maddie Andrews (21:39) Right. Marci Grossman (21:51) this is what I need and they really are that hard to find the person who can deal with. You've got a plateful, you've got a very large plate with a lot of things on it and not every therapist is going to be able to give you what you need. So I understand you would say, I've got the one I need, it took me whatever to find her, I can't let her go. Maddie Andrews (22:11) Right, and I live in a rural area, so in my town there are no therapists. So me finding a therapist who accepts my insurance means me driving over an hour to see them. So me keeping a provider, I'm a busy person, I work a full-time job, I run a business, I go to school, I don't have a lot of free time, and this therapist sees me telehealth on the days I'm off. She specializes in serious mental illness and she specializes in the type of therapy that works for me, which not everybody does. like you said, we gel, we have a good rapport. And when you're seeking out a therapist, it's like a job interview. You have to find someone that works for you. Otherwise, what's the point of going? Marci Grossman (22:51) Right, you have to be able to trust that person. So now we're talking about all of these hurdles and some of them are significantly financial. If she had to drive an hour each way to have therapy, then we're talking at least three hours every time she goes for therapy because you've got the time to get there, the time to get back, a therapy appointment, rounded, it's an hour give or take, might be a little bit more just because you want to get there a few minutes early, you check in or they're running a few minutes late. All of these things add up to this financial hardship because of having mental health. So if you know people, if you work with people that you know are struggling, and obviously some people are going to be public about it and some people are not, and that's fine, that's their choice, but if you know someone is struggling with mental health, what can you do to keep this quality employee? Okay. they're going to have some challenges. Sometimes they're going to call in sick maybe a little more often than a different employee would who isn't struggling with mental health. You would do it if they were in a wheelchair. You would do it if they were seeking treatment for cancer. Why wouldn't you do it for someone who has mental health issues? If this is a quality employee, how can you make it so that it is more accessible for them? Maddie Andrews (24:08) Right, so when I was a teacher teacher for the school system, my direct supervisor was not a big proponent of me taking time off for myself if I needed to attend therapy or a doctor's appointment. She would illegally question me. So like I mentioned, I had tremors. They were not related to anything but my medication. I was coming to work every single day. I was doing my job exceptionally well. And somehow I was being questioned because I had a physical symptom. When she wouldn't let it go, I was forced to disclose that I take medication. At one point with the end of my job, I wanted to be placed on FMLA. And when I mentioned this to my new supervisor, I was looked down upon and shunned. And in this circle of teachers, there was a man who did take FMLA for suicidal ideations and the gossip train that ran around about him, creating an unsafe environment for everybody else who live with mental illness in that building was wild to me But when I switched to the nonprofit they loved me for me. When I had to go out of work they were checking on me and when I came back they were like do you need accommodations? Do you need a safe place to talk and part of my recovery was like meditation? So I was allowed to take like a five minute break pop in my earbuds and go in the bathroom and meditate They created a healing environment because I was a good employee and that made me want to stay there. That made me want to do a better job and it made me want to work harder when I was there. Marci Grossman (25:42) You're a good employee. Why wouldn't they try to keep you? ⁓ That's something we talk about, finding people who are qualified to do jobs. And you hear companies saying, well, we need someone who can do XYZ. Well, guess what? There are people out there who can do XYZ. They've got a little bit of baggage. They need a little bit of grace from you to help them be able. But they're going to be, if you're loyal to them, they're going to be loyal employees to you. Maddie Andrews (25:47) Right. Marci Grossman (26:07) This is what you're looking for if you're willing to accept the fact that people aren't perfect. I've met a lot of people and I have not met a perfect one yet. Maddie Andrews (26:16) When I came back and needed, not that I wasn't doing my job, but every here and there I would take PTO for a doctor's appointment. And they never gave me a hard time about it. And it truly made me feel loved and accepted in the workplace. I started coming earlier. I started staying later. I started working weekends when they needed it. And when I was there, I took on extra tasks to try to promote the company. I went above and beyond for them because they were going above and beyond and accepting me for who I am. Marci Grossman (26:46) I keep going back to financially it is in everyone's best interest to find a place for people who have whatever their baggage is, who have the qualifications, who want to work, who can do the job well. You know, she's not asking for extra gobs of money. Pay me an extra 200,000 a year because my medication is whatever. Give me a little bit of grace when I need five minutes to meditate. Give me, the opportunity to do the things I need to do so that I can be amazing for you. Maddie Andrews (27:21) Right, you know, it's all boils down to that we're human beings too. Just because we live with a mental health diagnosis doesn't mean we don't have feelings and needs and creating that inclusive environment is an important part of the workplace because a lot of people are silent about this, but I bet if your employees were really honest, you have more living with mental health diagnosis than you probably initially thought. Marci Grossman (27:47) an interesting thought. Are you still with your husband? Maddie Andrews (27:50) I am with my husband. We have been together for 10 years. When I was sick, it was a very hard time in our marriage. We almost got divorced. He did not understand what was happening and I didn't understand what was happening and we were together 24-7 and it created a lot of friction, a lot of argument and some bad behaviors. But we worked through it. We got better and we have a great partnership today. Marci Grossman (28:15) That's amazing because having him there, having a partner through all of this and having an advocate for you when you weren't able to understand that you needed to get compliant now to get the treatment, to get better, to get past where you were at that point in time, I have to imagine that makes all the difference. I know in life in general, having a partner you can trust and who's got your back is huge. Maddie Andrews (28:39) It's amazing to know that at the end of the day, I've got people, I've got a whole support network. You know, like even though I'm not at that nonprofit anymore, they're still a part of my support network and I love them to pieces. And my sister-in-law is my secondary power of attorney because I know in a crisis she's going to take care of me. But an important part of me living up for them is being honest. So when I don't feel well, when I'm having a symptom, I articulate that instead of waiting until it's a crisis. so that they can be aware in how they need to support me. Marci Grossman (29:10) So what are you doing now work-wise? Maddie Andrews (29:12) Yeah, so I started a nonprofit in 2024 and it is operational. I run that part time. I go to school working on my MSW full time, including an internship placement three days a week. And then in a couple of weeks, I was a peer support specialist in the community, but in a couple of weeks, I'm starting at a behavioral health crisis unit where I will work full time. running support groups, doing one-on-one work with people with mental health and substance use concerns. And it's just my way to give back. people gave back to me. People helped me get better. So I kind of dedicated my life to giving that to other people. That's the whole basis of my nonprofit. That's the whole basis of my MSW. That's the whole basis of my entire life. Marci Grossman (30:03) I will be sharing a link to Maddie's nonprofit, J & E support Group in the show notes. Marci Grossman (30:09) so you can find out more about her, find out how to reach her, what her resources are that she offers. This is so powerful. I really appreciate you coming on and taking us behind the scenes in all of this. When do you graduate? Maddie Andrews (30:22) That's a tricky question. I'm not supposed to graduate until August of 2027, but I'm itching to get out. So I'm in the process of speeding up my schooling so that I can hopefully graduate in a year. It's a two and a half year program, but I'm trying to make it two. I'm ready to be an advocate full time. I'm ready to work on policy change. I think education is valuable and important. Will I probably get my doctorate somewhere down the road? Yeah, I love being in school, but I'm ready to get out in the fields and work full time. Marci Grossman (30:58) Okay, now, as an accountant, I'm kind of a math person. And when you were saying all the things that you were doing, I just think your days might be a little bit longer than mine. Maddie Andrews (31:07) Yeah, I pull when I start this new job, I will be working anywhere from 80 to 100 hours a week. I work and do schoolwork and internship and sleep. I don't have much free time, but when I do my work, it's not work to me. When I help somebody or make a difference in my community, it keeps me healthy. It keeps me in recovery. And my husband and I have a unique relationship where We know right now our time is more limited, but it's good for us in the long run. And we spent that four months of me being home and him being home full time and it didn't work for us. So right now it's not the worst thing in the world. He's picking up a lot at home. I could not do this without my husband. He does the cooking and the cleaning, the grocery shopping and takes care of my dogs and all the things that I used to do that I can't do anymore. So I am very grateful that I have such a loving partner. Marci Grossman (32:04) Okay, I do have to say I might have to kind of snip that part out, otherwise there's going to be a bidding war on your husband. Maddie Andrews (32:10) He's fabulous. It took a lot of training. I can't lie. It took a lot of training, and a lot of hard conversations. But you know, I've been there for him in the past and this time it's my turn. And when I started this journey, we talked about it and I was like, I'm going to need a lot from you. And it's kind of evolved. And he said, my dreams are to make your dreams come true. And he means it. So he's just making that happen. Marci Grossman (32:34) Yep, yep, definitely a bidding war. Have you got anything final you would like to share before we wrap up, anything we missed? Maddie Andrews (32:40) I would just like to say that kindness is free. You know, we don't know what someone else is going through. We don't know what's going on in their mind and their private life. So let's make an effort to be kind, to share that word, to share that act of kindness because I've had moments in my life where I was choosing life or death and that stranger gave me that smile and that stranger gave me that kind word and I chose life because of it. So just be kind. Marci Grossman (33:05) Maddie, you have been fabulous. I am so glad you agreed to share your time with us. To my listeners, as I said, I will be sharing Maddie's links in the show notes. Please check her out. She has a lot of interesting information to share Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, stay tuned. Maddie Andrews (33:08) Thank you. Marci Grossman (33:25) I will see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). Marci Grossman (33:31) You got this. See ya.