Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / Oseyo’s Chefs Laura Sawicki and Mike Diaz on Creativity, Business, and the Future of Dining | Ep 146

Transcript

Oseyo’s Chefs Laura Sawicki and Mike Diaz on Creativity, Business, and the Future of Dining | Ep 146 · Chef's PSA Podcast

0:00
Hello chefs, this is Chefs PSA. I'm your host Andre Natera.
0:03
On today's episode my guests are Laura Suwicki and Mike Diaz.
0:07
Mike's been on the show before Laura's first time they run Oseo
0:12
Restaurant in Austin, TX. Laura is a pastry chef, Mike is
0:16
the savory show. There are a couple and we have a
0:18
fun conversation talking about restaurants, pastries and Laura
0:23
gives some very specific advice for future pastry chefs.
0:26
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Stay tuned.
0:40
So Mike, it's good to have you back, man.
0:42
You got a story on. I'm just, I'm just kidding, but
0:48
I'm glad that finally we got both of you on because there's
0:51
so much that I want to talk about today.
0:53
But one of the things that's interesting, we were talking a
0:55
little bit off camera is like when you look at the the dining
0:59
landscape today, specifically here we are in Austin, TX.
1:03
And I feel like Austin's one of the hottest food cities.
1:05
They got, they got every type of restaurant that exists,
1:08
especially with the Michelin Guide getting here, it's going
1:09
to lift everyone up to start pushing a little bit harder.
1:12
But what do you think is missing right now in Austin?
1:16
Like if you if you had a magic wand and you said we're going to
1:18
open up these types of restaurants.
1:20
What do you think is missing in Austin right now?
1:22
And then what do you think is missing like nationally?
1:26
Well, I think the landscape has changed a lot.
1:28
I moved here 16 years ago and I always had this idea of opening
1:33
a Jewish deli and it never felt like it was the right time.
1:37
And at some point in the last few years, I really feel like
1:39
the shift is there and it's just, it's like wide open and
1:43
it's the time, you know? And I think there's a lot of
1:47
opportunity to do a lot of cool stuff, but I think we're moving
1:50
in a direction where back towards that kind of side of
1:53
comfort. I think we all need to feel
1:57
supported and loved in lots of ways.
1:59
And restaurants can bring that kind of nostalgia and that
2:01
comfort. There's so much, there's just
2:04
such a realm of every kind of restaurant now.
2:07
But I do think that there's this sort of niche that's missing in
2:09
this kind of like way. I don't know what I'm trying to
2:13
say. I'm sorry.
2:13
No, I mean, it's it, you're, no, you're right.
2:16
It's like there's, there's a lot of things that are here now, but
2:21
then there's a lot of room for other things that we just don't
2:25
have here. Like, you know, proper, like New
2:28
York style bagel shop or, or, you know, like the Jewish deli
2:32
that we're we're, you know, we're talking about is something
2:35
that we we've been wanting to realize for a long time.
2:39
And I think that there's a few attempts at doing it, but like
2:43
nothing like like what you would get in New York.
2:45
And I think that there's, there's, there's a lot more room
2:49
for just, I don't know, just a different type of deli, you
2:58
know, like more New York, NY. Style what What makes a good New
3:02
York style Jewish deli I. Think at the core, it's the
3:05
matzo ball soup that is like the backbone and the good bagels,
3:09
you know, But we're going to have, we've talked about doing
3:11
like a smoked fish program, all the brisket, pastrami, all of
3:15
that. But I think at the core, like
3:18
for me, when we travelled and we were, we went to Montreal, we
3:22
went to Chicago, we went to, we've obviously gone in back
3:25
east, we went to LA. And always the thing that I
3:28
gravitate to is wanting to try the matzo soup because I do
3:30
think that gives the back when there isn't a spot to get a
3:33
proper. Mike was actually asking when I
3:36
started making, like when I was perfecting my matzo ball soup.
3:38
And I said, I think it actually started when I moved here
3:41
because back home when I was living in Brooklyn, NY, you
3:44
could just go to a deli, you know, it's a dime a dozen.
3:46
Like everyone's got a great matzo ball soup, but here you
3:49
just can't find it. So I think it was like born out
3:52
of necessity. I was missing that.
3:56
And yeah, I mean, it's a place, it's a, it's a really like
3:59
convivial environment. You know, it's the deli that I
4:02
grew up going to in Connecticut was I think every single person
4:06
there was a regular. What was the?
4:07
Name like Gold's Deli, Gold's Delicatessen.
4:11
Westport. Gold's Delicatessen.
4:12
I mean, it's an institution and everyone there is a regular.
4:15
The people that work there are about 185 years old.
4:18
My mom. Knows each other.
4:20
Everyone knows each other. Everyone's a regular Saturday
4:22
mornings. We went and we sat at that.
4:23
We sat at the deli in the back. It's like grab and go stuff up
4:26
front and then like proper service in the back.
4:28
But the two servers have been there for probably 95 years and
4:33
my mom has her, you know, she loves one more than the other.
4:35
She knows how to make a proper iced tea.
4:37
And then the other one's better at serving the matzo balls.
4:39
So I don't know. What do you mean a proper iced
4:41
tea like? What's like the right amount of
4:42
ice Lemon And yeah, I mean, but it's so.
4:46
Specific are we using like Lipton?
4:48
Oh, for sure, Yeah. No, no, it's, it's, it's not, I
4:51
mean, I don't want to say it's, it's not great.
4:53
It's just, you know, they're not elevating it.
4:56
It is just, you know, but they've got like jars of Jelly
4:59
beans in the back shell, like everything about it, It's just.
5:01
Perfect the the right Pickles. The Pickles are phenomenal, but
5:05
their muscle soup is, is just, you know, out of this world.
5:09
And it's, you know, it's Jewish. Like, yeah, you can get a ham
5:12
sandwich there. You know, it's taboo, but like,
5:15
yeah, no, it's just delicious. Everything is perfect.
5:17
They're tuna salad. They're whitefish salad.
5:19
And I get excited thinking about it.
5:21
And I feel like, you know, we talk about what we're going to
5:23
go have for lunch after this. And I'm like, man, I really wish
5:26
I wanted to call it Goldie's. I just thought it was an homage
5:28
to Gold's Delicatessen. You know, every time we go back
5:31
to visit my family, we got to hit up Gold's to go.
5:34
There's there's a Goldie's here. Though there's AI know that's
5:36
why it's kind of a it's not That was the that was the original
5:39
name that I that I held in my heart and I, you know, I went
5:43
ahead and bought all the. Do you remember like Coming to
5:47
America with Eddie Murphy? Yes, like they have McDonald's.
5:50
Yes, like they have McDonald's. Gold you want to get into Yeah
5:58
naming stuff 1 little thing you change and then.
6:02
Well, I bought like every URL 'cause I was like it's.
6:04
And then when we started actually realizing the concept,
6:06
I realized that it's super saturated as a names.
6:09
Yeah, we've kind of, we had some other, you know, and it's sort
6:12
of. So this like embryonic stages of
6:14
wanting to do this. You're like early stages of
6:16
thinking about. Yeah, yeah.
6:17
Yeah, I've already done the business plan.
6:19
I mean, I worked on that all summer.
6:20
Like we have a couple years of traction, but it's just really
6:24
taking the plunge. So, so for my billions of
6:26
listeners, billions. Billions, right?
6:28
Billions. I'm huge in the Philippines and
6:30
huge in Dubai for some reason. Oh wow.
6:32
Like, not kidding. You have friends in Dubai, so if
6:34
you're listening. I was running numbers on like
6:37
the analytics on the show and some and I saw that like #1 food
6:40
podcast in the Philippines #1 food podcast in Dubai.
6:44
At one point I was like #1 food podcast in Hong Kong.
6:46
I have no idea what's listening but but you can shout out to my.
6:51
Plug that Filipino. In Dubai and Hong Kong fans.
6:54
The the actor, what's his name from Baywatch and Knight Rider.
6:57
That was huge. Hasselhoff, David.
6:59
You're the David. Hasselhoff, David Hasselhoff.
7:01
Of the Philippines. Shout out to all my Filipino
7:06
friends. No but I used to work with a ton
7:08
of Filipinos so I think that's why.
7:09
Realistically I think that's why.
7:10
I think they just listen to it and share it, so shout out to
7:12
those. Things.
7:14
Yeah, that's awesome. But anyway, back to my point to
7:17
the billions of listeners that are out there, if I mean you're
7:21
starting out, but I mean are you like you have investors behind
7:24
you? We started that, yes, we
7:26
started, I mean, we yes, no, we were getting some traction.
7:29
We sort of decided to take a different turn from some
7:32
partners that we were kind of working with.
7:34
So it's it's got traction, it's got legs, but it's yeah, I need.
7:40
To push myself, I need to push myself.
7:42
We need to push ourselves more. I need to push myself more.
7:44
I met with a friend a couple around the time that I was
7:47
leaving my previous restaurant group and she said, whatever you
7:50
do, Lori, just don't drag your feet.
7:52
And I hear her voice telling me that.
7:53
And I really, for whatever reason, I'm dragging my feet.
7:57
I think probably just out of fear and apprehension, but I
8:01
know in my heart this thing already exists and I'm super
8:04
confident that it's going to be wildly successful.
8:06
Yeah, we're, we just need to raise some money and, and, and
8:09
get, you know, get the right backing and then just go for it.
8:12
But yeah. Yeah, we were looking at
8:14
property. I mean, it's it's.
8:15
Here's something anecdotal, but it's it's relevant to you.
8:18
It's the last podcast that we did together with Gabe and and
8:21
Rico. We were talking about opening up
8:23
a Mexican steakhouse. Oh, that's what I was going to
8:25
say. Yeah.
8:26
I, I love the idea. I was going to bring that up
8:28
too, that there needs to be more of that, like Mexican
8:31
Steakhouse. I don't know exactly what that
8:35
would be like. I don't know.
8:36
I just you brought that up last time and I thought it was a
8:40
great idea. But then I thought about like
8:43
what I would go as a kid with my dad, like when he would take us
8:47
out to dinner and it was like El Tenampa in in Juarez, you know,
8:52
and it, it was a big ass steakhouse, but it was very much
8:55
like like a Salos kind of, you know, like it was just like a
8:59
little hearth piggy with like a bunch of meat on top with like
9:04
coals underneath to keep it warm.
9:06
And that's what I thought of when you said Mexican
9:08
steakhouse, but. So many people reached out
9:11
really said that yeah, I got a lot.
9:12
I mean, people that know me personally reached out and like,
9:14
hey, that's a good idea. And I won't say who, but someone
9:17
connected me with like some big billionaire recently, like, hey,
9:21
you guys should talk. Lives in Austin.
9:23
And I was like, oh shit, I haven't.
9:25
And so I sent I sent a text. I was like, maybe you want to
9:28
talk. But anyway, so the reason I
9:29
bring this up is because I don't know who's people are listening.
9:31
Like a lot of times, a lot of the consulting that I do on the
9:34
side, it's usually people sending me their business plans
9:37
and stuff like that. Like I've become really
9:39
efficient at looking at business plans.
9:40
But anyway, the the reason I bring that up is because, yeah,
9:44
if you want to send me your business plan for the Jewish
9:46
deli, I'd be happy to to. Look at it.
9:48
Yeah, yeah. For.
9:50
Sure. I, I, I want, I'm more of like
9:53
a, like a trade, like a Frenchy kind of like steakhouse, you
9:59
know, like. You have the vision we have we.
10:02
I like, toy with ideas all the time.
10:04
We've got so many ideas we're kicking around.
10:05
Mike wants to do a Tavern. I want to do an Argentinian
10:08
steakhouse because. Yeah, but Azada, because I'm
10:10
from Argentina and I think but there.
10:12
Is like, I mean, we could talk about like, oh, I want to do
10:14
this. I want to do that like you know.
10:16
Nothing's doing, nothing's happening.
10:17
There's fucking money. Yeah, but but like, but money
10:21
was an object. Yes, of course I do like 10
10:23
different. Yeah, that's the most fun part,
10:26
right? That's, I mean, building the
10:27
deck, it's all the fantasy, right?
10:29
So like I've already put together all the menus I need.
10:31
I've got all, you know, picked out everything.
10:33
And then it's like actually getting to the nitty gritty and
10:35
doing the financials and running the numbers.
10:36
I mean like, oh, now it's now this is like not the sexy stuff,
10:40
right? This is the logistics, but it's
10:42
the most important. At the end of the day, it's
10:43
like, what's the bottom line? What's that number?
10:46
That's that's all that matters. Like all that's great, but how
10:47
much are you gonna how much are we making?
10:49
Yeah, At the end of how much are we that that when you paying me
10:52
back? That brings up a good point.
10:54
You we were talking about it off before we hit record.
10:59
It was, you know how hard it is to open up a restaurant.
11:04
And I think last time we were talking about it and it doesn't
11:08
make money. It's it's really hard to make
11:10
money and be successful at it. So that that's as a veteran of
11:15
like almost like 30 years. No, I mean you that's the
11:20
hardest part is like realizing, oh, like, you know, you can be a
11:24
young listener, young aspiring chef and just like me when I was
11:29
a kid and I want to just own my own restaurant or I want to open
11:33
my own restaurant. And it's really shitty to find
11:40
out that like, oh, like it's really hard to make money just
11:44
owning one restaurant. Yeah, you know, and and it.
11:47
And you might sometimes you might not make any money.
11:49
You might be losing money. And yeah, that's the worst,
11:52
right? Like the you shut down but and
11:55
you go out of business, but that is that is a deterring factor in
11:59
in trying to do another the. End of the day, we're all
12:02
artists and romantics, right? So there's this fantasy of what
12:05
the restaurant industry is that's really beautiful.
12:07
And it's when you're young and spry and like nothing's aching
12:11
yet in your body, all of that, you know, it's that there's the
12:14
romanticism, there's the sexiness of it, but then the
12:16
reality sets in when you actually are the one operating
12:20
the business. So today's chefs, I haven't
12:22
posted yet. I'm going to post it as soon as
12:23
we're done. This is the one I wrote today is
12:25
like every chef believes in their food, but if no one buys
12:28
it, the guests don't believe in it.
12:31
Every chef thinks they have the right idea, but if no one buys
12:33
it? It's literally a business.
12:36
That's the that's the part that like as when you're younger and
12:38
you're aspiring, you don't really fixate on that.
12:41
And you think, you know, I've worked at this one place, I've
12:43
learned as much as I can learn from them.
12:45
But have you stopped to actually look deeper into like how the
12:48
business is operating and how a business is success with success
12:52
is not just the food it puts on the plate, It's how lean, you
12:56
know, how lean and smart and, and how much money I mean at the
13:00
end of the day. You learned that early on, like
13:02
if you're, if you're young and, and, and you have all the tools
13:05
nowadays to like find it, which we didn't like.
13:09
Now everything's Google everything, and so learn the
13:13
business 1st and then the creativity will flow naturally,
13:17
right? But yeah, it's really difficult.
13:21
I think culinary schools in general and anyone that's
13:24
teaching hospitality or culinary right now, I think they have to
13:27
rethink how they're teaching. And I think a larger portion
13:31
needs to be on the business side of it.
13:33
Like, I almost think because of YouTube and how quickly people
13:36
can learn how to cook. You know, they have chef steps
13:37
there. YouTube, you know, you could
13:39
watch Instagram and learn a ton of new techniques much quicker
13:43
than we could back then because we had to wait for the shiny
13:45
cookbook and you couldn't watch it.
13:46
You just had to say, I think I know how you got that right.
13:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but now you could learn so
13:50
quick online. I think they need to spend
13:52
probably half of the curriculum, I would say is the business
13:54
side. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:56
Yeah. I'm curious to see how, because
13:59
I went to the CIA in 2003 and it felt like it was such a
14:04
regimented, you know, like they, they didn't evolve, they didn't
14:07
shift their programming. It was like this is how we do
14:10
it. And I'm sure over the course of
14:11
like every 10 years or something, I'm sure they've,
14:14
they've made edits to their and they're always updating and, and
14:17
adapting. But I would be curious how the
14:19
curriculum has changed from 2003 to 2025.
14:22
Well, some something like a like an interesting thought
14:25
experiment and I don't know the answer.
14:26
I'm just, I just thought of it right now.
14:27
So I had to put too much thought into it.
14:30
But like, if you look at the amount of restaurants that exist
14:33
out there and how many of the owners went to culinary school
14:35
versus how many of the owners went to Business School.
14:38
And, and, and if you saw the split, I'd be, I would guess
14:41
that it's probably like 20% of the owners went to cooking
14:45
school and about 80% went to Business School or have some
14:48
sort of business background. And, and a lot of chefs,
14:52
especially when you're young, when you're 17 years old and
14:55
you're in high school and you think, okay, I want, I want to
14:57
open my own restaurant. What should I do?
14:59
The first thing that pops in your mind is I should go to
15:00
culinary school. Yeah, it's not.
15:02
I should go to business. Schools, right?
15:04
I studied art history in college and undergrad, and so I was
15:07
never a pragmatic person. I'm like, I don't know, I'm do
15:09
that, but it's I'm expanding my mind.
15:12
The thought of taking a business class in undergrad was like
15:14
revolting to me. I'd be like, why would I do
15:18
that? And now, and I'm not a
15:21
pragmatist and I don't have regrets, but I there is a tinge
15:24
of like, I wish that, you know, the 25 years or God, I'm 45.
15:29
It's wild. I think all these years later,
15:31
you know, there is a tinge of a moment where I'm like, I wish I
15:34
could have listened to myself a little bit and been like, maybe
15:39
just take a, just take one little class, just take one
15:42
little class. And thankfully three years of
15:45
working and then I'm owning my own businesses and being a
15:47
partner and really successful restaurants.
15:49
I did learn so much. But had I been afforded that
15:53
opportunity, had I afforded it to myself, I recognize that that
15:56
was super important back then. Who knows where I could have
15:59
been? You know, it's sort of late to
16:00
the game to understand. Not too late, but.
16:03
No, I I just mean. I think it is.
16:06
We find it, like I said, it's it was like revolt.
16:08
The idea of it was revolting. And now I realize how absolutely
16:10
essential and critical. Yeah, having that, that wealth
16:14
of knowledge. A lot of a lot of chefs,
16:15
especially younger chefs and cooks that I talk to, especially
16:17
on the mentorship side, a lot of them have this this view that,
16:22
well, I'm selling out. If I learn the business, it's
16:24
all about the food and it's all about the passion and it's all
16:27
about what's on the plate and soul.
16:28
And it's like, yeah, that's great, but it's not a
16:32
playground, and the doors won't remain open for long if that's
16:35
all you think about. Yeah, I've, I've, I've seen that
16:40
happen where chefs, you know, like owners are dealing with a
16:44
chef maybe who's like hyper creative.
16:48
And then, you know, like, unfortunately, like this is like
16:52
totally like, like anecdotal for a friend of ours who like, I
16:57
feel like the chef was probably like, you know, responsible for
17:04
not, you know, not, you know, it's just like, not like, like
17:08
you got to hold somebody accountable for just their job
17:11
and right. Like costing food is like like.
17:14
Boring. It's boring, but you got to do
17:16
it. Like, you got to do it.
17:17
Yeah. And so it's just like, like,
17:19
don't get caught up in like just the like the frou frou like.
17:23
The theatrics and. Yeah, that's that's fun.
17:25
Like that's all gravy. But like, the thing that matters
17:29
is having the doors stay open. Someone said to me the other
17:32
day, like being a chef is like spending all your time looking
17:36
in the mirror. Flexing your muscles is the fun
17:38
part, but working out is the hard part.
17:40
That's the costing and the systems and setting up and
17:42
understanding the business. Like that's the daily lifting
17:45
weights, looking at yourself in the mirrors, the results of all
17:48
that. Other stuff it's the flowers on
17:50
the. With the yeah, the vanity, like
17:52
we would talk about building vanity projects once we were
17:55
getting the restaurants like up and running and they were
17:57
successful. And then that's the part that
17:58
really, like, feeds our soul, but it's not the thing that's
18:02
going to keep the doors open and.
18:04
I'm like, I think as a, as a, you know, veteran, I feel like
18:10
I'm more interested in like the business side.
18:14
It's just like for me, naturally, I just.
18:16
Like I wanted to be. Yeah, yeah, like, like I really
18:19
like, you know, working with Laura.
18:21
She's hyper creative and there's, you know, we have
18:26
meetings where sometimes it's like I'm dealing with Laura and
18:29
our and Lynn, you know, we're, we're talking ideas and, and
18:33
it's like. And I'm like.
18:34
All right, all right, let's. How's that going to be picked
18:37
up? Like who's like, how's the salad
18:40
guy going to like do that on a Friday night?
18:42
And I'm more of like focused on like systems and like logistics
18:47
of, of business. So I, I, I feel more passionate
18:52
about like seeing a business succeed versus like, it's just
18:56
like the next trendy restaurant. You know, I, I, I do, I do feel
19:01
more interested in that part of businesses right now.
19:06
You, you, you guys are on the, the food circuit.
19:09
I used to be on the food circuit also, like Food and wine
19:11
festival. This festival, that festival,
19:13
especially in Austin, it's like there was a festival once a
19:16
month, every month, right? Yeah, Yeah.
19:19
And one of the things I used to do, like when I first started
19:21
going to these food festivals, like, I'm going to make the most
19:23
bad ass shit because I viewed it as a competition.
19:25
Oh. Yeah, like I hate competition,
19:27
but I always want to win. Right, right, right.
19:29
I thought you got to do 1000 of. Them right, right, right and
19:32
now, like back then I was like, I'm going to do the most
19:34
complicated swanier shit because I'm I'm not only going to
19:37
impress the guest, but I'm going to show all these other chefs
19:39
that there's a there's a new sheriff in town now it's like,
19:42
let's make sure we run out. I don't want to take anything
19:45
back. Make sure.
19:46
So when they say 1000 pieces, you give them 600.
19:49
Right, right. Yeah.
19:50
To the Food and Wine Festival. Don't ask chefs to bring 12. 100
19:55
Well, all the chefs know like 1200 Goddess, yeah, so 500.
20:00
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. Still, yeah, I say, I always say
20:04
I hate competition, but I want to be, I want to win and I just.
20:07
Thought about it. Like that.
20:08
It's my own, I guess, ego. I'm not an egomaniacal person,
20:12
but I always want to be the best.
20:13
Yeah. Yeah.
20:14
It's a strife or perfection, and it's never good enough.
20:16
You're tortured by my creativity.
20:20
That sounds like every shot. Yeah, that's really brutal.
20:24
I was interviewed for it was a magazine, I guess it was online
20:28
magazine Dark Rye years ago. And they did this really
20:30
beautiful. They filmed for like two or
20:32
three days at my house and they we want to, we want to film your
20:35
creative process. And I was like, I don't think
20:37
you want to film that pretty tortured.
20:41
I go through this. Whole.
20:42
Psychological. What is the creative process?
20:44
I mean, there's, you know, there's like drawing and there's
20:47
lots of like drawing and painting and all that that comes
20:50
with it. But there's a lot of like
20:52
imposter syndrome that plays a role.
20:55
There's a lot of self deprecation.
20:57
And I go through this whole cycle.
20:58
Mike and Lynn have both learned this the last three years.
21:01
I go through this point where I'm like hating the brink of
21:04
like despair. And then I cross that threshold
21:08
and I and I start to see the light ahead and I'm like, and
21:12
it's cyclical. It's the same.
21:13
It was every single time my sous chefs would learn that I would
21:17
go through this process. So they'd sort of like casually
21:18
roll their eyes like she's going through this again.
21:21
And then it's like they just wait with bated breath until I
21:25
finally crossed that threshold. Well, I had forgotten about her
21:28
process in in, in a while, right.
21:31
Like, and we were we were getting ready to we're doing a
21:38
dish for this dinner. We did a dinner with Gabe and it
21:43
was like, oh, I forgot about your process.
21:46
I was like, I thought she was just like sleepless.
21:48
Throw it in the towel. She was like.
21:50
In the morning texting. Myself like work, it was like,
21:53
it was like a technique she hadn't done before, so she
21:57
didn't have enough time to figure it out.
21:58
Like if she had like another day, she would have figured it
22:00
out and then and then she was just so beat up about it.
22:03
And I was just like. What was the dish?
22:05
I was nixtomalizing kobocha squash, but I was trying so many
22:08
different kinds of squash and different.
22:11
Like, like to serve like like they do in Mexico, like the
22:13
candied. So I was It was a gorgeous dish,
22:15
It was. I had a thought about that the
22:17
other day actually. I was talking to someone about
22:18
like nixtomalizing fruit and squash like that.
22:21
I was like, yeah, it's, it's underutilized so.
22:23
I so. She was doing that. 25 years or
22:25
whatever it was, I home feed a whole pumpkin.
22:29
So that was kind of this like in, in, in in Argentina, we eat
22:32
candied sweet potato or. Can I jump in?
22:34
Sure, yeah. Can you explain to people that
22:36
are listening, like what is nixtmalize?
22:38
What does the process look like to nixtmalize a squash or fruit
22:41
or something like that? You could probably better speak
22:45
to like the scientific reasoning, but the process is
22:50
you soak. In this case it was kabocha
22:53
squash in a lime powder. Was it calcium hydroxide
23:00
solution and through trial and error different Some people will
23:04
say it's a percentage of the weight of the squash.
23:06
I did a weight of the water. Gabe actually bestowed that
23:09
knowledge 3% of the weight of the water to the cow, to the
23:13
cow. And, and so is a series of just,
23:18
I tried a few, just a few hours. I tried 12 hours.
23:21
I tried 24 hours. But then I would cook the squash
23:24
for another six hours the next day in a Palencio Pasilla
23:29
situation. But you know, then it's by day
23:33
three, you're finally seeing what the results are.
23:35
And so that was the part was I don't have enough time to wait
23:37
three days. I'm a very impatient pastry chef
23:43
to find out that I don't love the way that something turned
23:46
out. And that's really devastating.
23:47
I don't usually put something in the oven, cross my fingers and
23:50
hope it works out. You know, I there's so much
23:51
study and understanding that happens on the front end of it
23:55
before I ever get to the place where I'm putting the thing.
23:58
For for people that are listening, can you explain what
23:59
happens after you calcify the the the food?
24:03
So in simplest terms, in terms of like this process with the
24:07
squash, it sets it, it changes the chemical structure of the
24:11
fruit. So it's set the structure quite
24:13
firm, which then allowed the slow cooking in the poaching
24:17
syrup to create like a custard center.
24:20
Yeah. But in terms of like the
24:21
niximizing process? It just helps improve the
24:23
structure of the vegetable and kind of like keeps the inside
24:28
like nice and creamy versus like just kind of mushy.
24:32
And you see there's a lot of Mexican food.
24:34
Yeah, right. Like so I think the people that
24:35
are listening like you could go into like sometimes like Mexican
24:38
grocery stores and you have like the the nextimalized calcified
24:42
cooked in syrup, sweet potato or squash or or fruit or something
24:46
like that. I don't know if.
24:47
If I'm seeing if if you would see that like with.
24:52
You'd see it in markets in Mexico, but not.
24:54
Yeah, like I I think that like like like comfy, like like can
25:00
candied like like squash, like in Mexico.
25:04
I don't know if they do the nextimalization on that, but I I
25:07
don't know. I don't believe so because
25:10
typically it's gonna. It's got so much sugar in it,
25:12
which preserves. It fans loosening.
25:14
Yeah, it's. Looks like the compressed yeah.
25:16
Yeah, it looks. Great.
25:17
And then the center is almost. This one, just when you do the
25:21
process, I think they do that more.
25:23
I mean, it's more like for the for corn, you know, like the,
25:28
you know, you associate Nick Stamolisation with corn most of
25:32
the time. But I think chefs have figured
25:34
out like recently, like in the last few years, I don't know how
25:38
how long 10 years they've they've been using it to like,
25:42
you know, comfy apples or squashes to to maintain the
25:47
structure and and kind of. Aesthetically, it was absolutely
25:50
gorgeous. And so fruit being the perfect
25:54
imperfect, I mean veg, everything, you know, nothing is
25:57
perfect. So each squash that I was trying
26:00
was a complete literally from one vegetable to the next, from
26:03
one day to the next was a different process.
26:04
So I tried butter kin kabocha acorn.
26:07
And while it was, it wasn't, I just wasn't yielding the results
26:12
that I'd imagined in my brain, you know, but it was, it was
26:15
such a stunning dish. When I finally got it to come
26:18
together, it literally was like, you know, like finally it just
26:23
took, it took so much work and I was so tortured by the, by all
26:27
the lack of success along the way.
26:29
But that's the joy of it, right? It's learning and teaching
26:31
yourself. And I don't have, I other than
26:36
going to culinary school 25 years ago, I'm, I consider
26:39
myself self-taught, you know, because I've always been the
26:42
boss. I I was thrown into a role at
26:45
some restaurants in Brooklyn way back when, where I took on the
26:49
role of a pastry chef. I was 25 years old and I was
26:51
running 2 restaurants, bakery by day and then two restaurants at
26:55
night. So it was a tremendous learning
26:57
curve. I just had to throw myself into
26:59
it and. Which by the way, I'll, I'll say
27:01
this right now because I, I think it doesn't get talked
27:03
about enough. I think that's almost more
27:05
impressive. Like a lot of people are like,
27:08
what's your pedigree? It's like, well, that person
27:10
doesn't have a pedigree, but look how successful they are.
27:12
Like to me, that's more impressive.
27:13
I. I'm I've built the restaurants.
27:16
I've been the chef that other people have learned from, which
27:18
is I always wanted that. I wanted to be the kind of chef
27:20
I never had, especially I had a pastry chef that berated me.
27:25
She called me all sorts of horrendous names and I was like,
27:27
OK, this is not the person I'm going to grow up to be
27:30
professionally. I'm going to create a really
27:32
healthy, nurturing, learning, tender, compassionate
27:37
environment for my staff to work in.
27:39
You do have an impressive like set of of old chefs that have
27:45
worked for you that have gone on to do.
27:47
I mean around the globe, like, yeah, yeah, it's really
27:50
impressive. One thing that's interesting I
27:52
was thinking about this earlier is when we were opening we were
27:58
we rented an Airbnb. This is like 2017 rented an
28:01
Airbnb behind longer. I remember, yeah.
28:04
And so like I had like 8 chefs crammed in there we were.
28:07
We had to write like 800 dishes, like it was just crazy.
28:11
If we were all cooking it out of her B&B behind launderette we
28:13
could go there often. Throw shit in the dumpster.
28:15
I remember, I remember you guys took some meetings on the patio.
28:19
I was like, we aren't even open it.
28:23
Was like what were you all working on?
28:25
So we were opening Garrison rules and regs review, the pizza
28:28
restaurant like we were opening all of that.
28:30
It's so wild that we do that because you also rented an
28:33
Airbnb when you were when you were doing the R&D for a sale.
28:35
Like why we think that's a great idea because it doesn't
28:37
translate. Yeah, to a professional kitchen,
28:40
right. Like there you work on dishes at
28:42
home, but they don't translate. You don't have.
28:44
I mean, I'm. Always like happy to be allotted
28:47
that time to fuck around. Like, yeah.
28:49
I remember you guys had like a little workshop.
28:51
It was like 8 little, you know, we always see everyone chef
28:53
coats and like running around. It's like Harry Potter.
28:56
Yeah, Yeah, it was, it was wild. Like we had to do a ton of
28:59
recipes we used to eat at every day with like go eat at the BBQ.
29:04
That was our lunch. Like they used to be in the
29:06
quickie pickie right there, right.
29:07
So Michelin, one star barbecued lunch every day.
29:09
Yeah. Not too shabby.
29:11
I wish I could eat that every day.
29:12
Yeah, that Mac and cheese. But anyway, the reason I bring
29:16
that up is what is your R&D process look like?
29:22
I know you just said you also rented an Airbnb, but like right
29:24
now in Osseo, what does the R&D process look like?
29:26
What's I, I? It's a lot of fun, actually.
29:29
And we were, you know. I so I conceptualize everything
29:34
that knew that we were working on.
29:36
I have really wild ideas and I just journal and just write,
29:39
write, write. And then it's a lot of just
29:42
conversations between Lynn, Mike and I try to tell, you know, our
29:45
story and then I throw out, I vomit all sorts of ideas and
29:51
something, you know, piques Mike's interest.
29:53
And then it's just a fun process of cooking together.
29:56
He takes my feedback incredibly well.
29:59
It took his feedback incredibly well.
30:00
It's just really. Fun.
30:01
I always like, don't want to ever do it like I'm always like,
30:05
Nah, I don't want to do that. The.
30:08
Creative process I've learned with Mike is that he will always
30:11
first be seem disinterested or perhaps a little worrisome
30:18
maybe, and then he starts to listen to my coaxing and
30:22
excitement that I can I can get behind.
30:24
I mean, I really could. I'm sure there's an expression
30:26
I'm terrible with idioms, but I could sell, I'm sure sell soap
30:31
to someone. I don't know what that
30:34
expression I. Mean don't stop, just stop.
30:38
This is a family friendly show. Here's a friendly Sell a ketchup
30:42
popsicle to a man in white gloves.
30:44
OK, there you go. So I so do some careful coaxing
30:50
and and and and excitement he finally gets.
30:53
On the the PG. Sell a ketchup popsicle to a man
30:56
in white gloves. I.
30:57
Could definitely and I could probably make that ketchup.
30:59
I know I could make that ketchup popsicle taste.
31:01
Really, what about our process is that like it?
31:04
It goes back and forth until it's it's perfect and we're
31:09
happy with it and it always tastes great and it tastes
31:12
amazing. Do you do you write it down
31:14
first before you start working on it?
31:15
Or do you start working on stuff and then go back and?
31:18
I tend to yeah, notebooks first. I do a lot of.
31:22
I'm thinking before I'm more free form, I like to just like
31:26
kind of research first the recipe and then I'll just put my
31:32
version or my recipe together and and I always write it down.
31:38
But you, I'm not going to say you do what I do.
31:44
No, you could say. That's different.
31:45
No, no, no, I just, I mean, it's, I think your process has
31:48
changed now that we're doing this together.
31:50
So it's no longer about like what Mike does in the kitchen,
31:52
what I do. Like it's a collective situation
31:55
now, so I try to make every day just a blast.
31:59
Like I'm singing and dancing in that in whatever kitchen I'm in
32:02
all day long because I'm my own best friend.
32:04
You play music in the kitchen? Yeah, how dare you?
32:07
Not during service. I can't agree I'm.
32:10
Just gonna say last time that for distracting never would let
32:12
people play music. In So I had a chef in New York
32:15
that only let us listen to. Sandstorm on repeat.
32:20
No, no, it was. My cook did that.
32:24
No now I just forgot it was Rush.
32:27
He was like he was anti music in the kitchen.
32:29
But unless it was Rush so we can listen, you know it was super
32:33
heady and nerdy. Rush, come on.
32:34
So when? I started working at Marla and
32:36
Sons. We listened to a ton of Billy
32:38
Joel and that just was like, it was like NPR at 4:00 in the
32:40
morning and then right into Billy.
32:41
Joel is great, yeah. So you love bopping around.
32:44
It's not getting in the way if you're grooving with it, You're
32:46
it's just, you know, it's, it's makes sense.
32:49
But the prep cooks will listen to like Lumias and all that in
32:51
the morning. They're.
32:52
Funny and once. Service starts, I don't want.
32:54
See, I don't listen to music in the kitchen, but during COVID,
32:59
you know, we came back and, like, the kitchens were empty.
33:01
We're not really serving guests. We're just kind of prepping to
33:03
get back to open. Yeah.
33:05
So like, we could put music on. They're like, chef, you pick the
33:07
music and I'm like, like, you want to listen to what I listen
33:10
to? I'm like, all right.
33:11
So I put on the Raekwon. The chef only built for Cuban
33:14
leaks. And it starts out with like him
33:16
doing lines of coke, like you guys ready for this?
33:20
Welcome to the 90s, bitches. That's why.
33:24
Maybe that's why you don't listen to.
33:29
Our kitchen's funny because the one cook will have music in the
33:32
back and then like on the line, they'll be like listening to a
33:36
different like they have their own little speaker.
33:38
So now they and so. The prep cooks in mind.
33:41
You're like. Listening to this like like
33:44
mashup mashup of like Gumbia and Billy Joel and like, it's great,
33:49
whatever. Let me ask you because I think
33:52
it's an important piece to today's culinary world.
33:55
What do you think chefs need to do to remain relevant?
33:59
Like to still be at the front of everyone's mind and and keep
34:02
their restaurants busy and do they have a responsibility?
34:04
Do you remember that that toy, it was probably like from the
34:07
50s and it's like a monkey with like, symbols and like, yeah,
34:09
yeah, yeah, yeah. One man band, basically.
34:11
And it's in every horror movie now you.
34:14
Gotta make a lot of noise. No, I mean, I joke about that,
34:17
but like it's it's a really competitive landscape right now,
34:20
you know, there's so much noise, there's so much noise.
34:23
Instagram, TikTok, every other facet.
34:25
So, you know, I think authenticity is a is a tricky
34:30
word, but I think being authentic to yourself and just
34:32
being honest and I think just having, I think presenting a
34:38
different perspective. That's for me, I mean fun.
34:41
I want to make sure that there's joy and fun and that you connect
34:45
with the food in a way that's really just it's special.
34:49
And I think it's more than just not that can be through service,
34:52
that can be through the actual dishes.
34:54
But I think, I don't know, I get, I feel.
34:58
Like I feel like, I feel like we get, you know, sometimes mixed
35:04
up and like the things we need to do in order to stay relevant
35:08
meant, you know, like, you know, you called it the circuit and
35:11
doing that like that whole thing where it's like you do the food
35:15
and wine, you do hot luck, you do the live fire, you do all
35:19
these like things around town. And it feels like you're like
35:23
that monkey that's just like making noise and you're and, and
35:28
when you stay true to what you're doing and just keep
35:32
making good food and, and putting out good product and
35:36
not, not like letting that suffer because that, that can
35:40
get, you know, forgotten, you know, like you have a dish on
35:43
the menu and it's been there since day one.
35:45
And then you're just like, oh, I never worry about that dish.
35:48
No, I worry about that dish because it's got to be as good
35:50
as it was on day one, right? And so like, as long as you're
35:53
doing that, I think that that that's a good way to to stay
35:57
relevant. But yeah, it's hard.
35:58
Now you have to like do all way more stuff like you got to do
36:02
like behind the scenes video at you know, on Instagram or you.
36:06
Got to be corny. Sometimes, yeah, you got to be
36:08
corny and, and, and then you follow trends and, you know, and
36:13
you, you do all of that. But then you're, you're now
36:17
you're like, you're competing with like the four new
36:21
restaurants that open this month or, you know, like people,
36:26
people just like moving into town that just don't know
36:29
anything. It's really tricky.
36:30
I mean it's like 4 new restaurants.
36:32
Used to have like there was like a six month when maybe six
36:35
months feels like launderette was like hot for like 2 1/2
36:38
years after we first opened. But now that window is like 3
36:40
weeks because we're on a constant cycle of restaurants
36:43
opening, which is incredible for the city and incredible for the
36:46
guests, but also such a saturation that it, it becomes
36:50
really noisy. It's hard to say.
36:51
It's, I think the most important part, I guess when I say
36:55
authenticity is like remembering to believe in yourself.
36:59
And that's how the relevance will come to play because you
37:02
can get really distracted by all that noise and you get in your
37:04
head and start to feel, I, you know, I'm older.
37:08
I'm not in the spotlight anymore.
37:09
I sort of have, I, I talk myself off the ledge constantly about
37:13
me. Like, am I even relevant
37:14
anymore? Do people Remember Me?
37:16
Billions of listeners. Billions.
37:19
Billions. Now I've got billions.
37:20
You're going to be huge in Hong Kong.
37:23
Philippines #1 In. The Philippines.
37:25
So yeah, I've always wanted to be.
37:28
You know, it's like, sorry, it feels as though like restaurants
37:31
like it's, it's, it's a, it's like a huge thing to like make
37:36
it to five years now, you know, and like places like, like we're
37:41
going on our 6th year. I think like Nick said, just had
37:44
their fifth year and there's, you know, there's you still have
37:47
to kind of put yourself out there and, and still try harder
37:52
to get those people that like weren't here five years.
37:54
Ago, right. And it's hard to get sometimes
37:56
you get pigeonholed. And so as a chef, you evolved.
37:59
Like the food that you were doing five years ago is not
38:01
necessarily the food that you want to do today.
38:02
But people don't want you to change either.
38:04
Yeah, right. They still want to come in for
38:05
this. Yeah.
38:06
And it's like, well, my ideas have evolved and I know like,
38:09
maybe that was good five years ago.
38:10
Today it's different. Let me introduce you this.
38:11
No, no, no, no. Don't introduce me to anything
38:13
now. Yeah.
38:14
I want to keep eating that. Yeah.
38:15
It's the, you know, the Jon Favreau chocolates?
38:21
Yeah. Was it flowerless?
38:22
Flowerless chocolate cake from the movie Chef.
38:25
Yeah, honestly, that I'm shocked at how good that Flowerless was.
38:29
We went to Vegas over the summer and Mike went down to the chef
38:33
food truck in our hotel and brought a little.
38:36
Chef food truck? Is that like from the movie
38:37
show? Yeah, yeah.
38:39
Like Roy Choi has a restaurant in in the at the hotel we stayed
38:43
at and it's called Best Friend. Phenomenal.
38:46
It's really cool. It's like Korean, Mexican, OK,
38:50
but near next next to that there was the chef truck from the
38:54
movie they would sell. They were selling Cubanos and
38:59
and like I got the flourless chocolate cake.
39:04
Yeah, when it's I bring it up to the room and leave it there for
39:07
a little bit and. 30 minutes later, that's.
39:10
Still, the powerless chocolate cake is like one of the one of
39:13
the goats of, of, of desserts, you know, like let me it's, it's
39:18
rare that I have a pastry chef on very rare.
39:20
So. I know what's up with that.
39:23
There's not a lot of them, right?
39:24
That that's that's problem number one is I think, you know,
39:27
like people come to me and be like, hey, I want to become a
39:29
pastry chef. I'll give you, I'll tell you
39:31
what I tell people is like, just keep this in mind.
39:34
Like not every restaurant that has a chef also has a pastry
39:38
chef. So keep that in mind that
39:39
there's going to be fewer opportunities for you.
39:41
So that's one of the reasons why I tell people like really think
39:43
this through because you don't have as much opportunity, but
39:47
because I don't have. I wanted to ask you about
39:50
desserts specifically. But now maybe we talk about
39:53
advice for pastry chefs that are just getting in the game.
39:56
So remind me to come back to like the goats of desserts.
39:59
But like, if someone was coming into the game right now and they
40:01
want to be and you're one of the the legendary pastry chefs, what
40:05
advice would you give to someone that is like, OK, I'm 18 years
40:08
old. I want to go to culinary school
40:10
and I want to be a pastry chef. How do I make it in the world
40:12
today? How?
40:14
Much time do I have, I don't know.
40:17
I mean, it's so hard. I think I would never want to
40:19
deter anyone from it. But you know, you have to give
40:21
the, the sound sage advice, like it's not an easy game to get
40:26
into. But I think just really trusting
40:29
yourself. And I guess I'll circle back to
40:31
like being honest and authentic with yourself.
40:34
Like it's a really, really difficult industry to break into
40:38
and to be really successful at. It's not for the faint of heart.
40:42
So it's, I don't know, I wish I had some like sound sage advice,
40:47
but take risks. Don't be afraid to have doors
40:52
closed before you so more doors can open like it's.
40:56
You just really have to to be passionate about it, commit to
40:59
it, give it your all. Let let me pretend I'm the 18
41:03
year old and I'm asking you questions so I want very
41:05
specific answers. OK OK I'm 18, new new culinary
41:09
student. What school should I go to?
41:14
The CIA was incredible for pastry.
41:17
I mean, it's an incredible school to everyone who has been
41:20
and is continuing thing to think about going there.
41:23
I had an 18 year old cook at launderette that wanted to go
41:27
for savory, so I advised her to continue to cook whether it was
41:33
with us or in other restaurants around town before she made that
41:36
commitment to truly decide. I think from the savory end of
41:39
things you can get a really incredible education just
41:42
working with dedicated chefs that are willing to teach for
41:46
pastry. I think it's very useful and
41:51
instrumental to have that wealth of knowledge because you get
41:54
exposed to so many things that you wouldn't have the
41:57
opportunity to be exposed to. Like I was blowing, pulling like
42:01
sugar roses, you know, and making three tiered wedding
42:05
cakes. Like those are things I never
42:06
want to do again. But I was super thrilled to have
42:08
the opportunity. So does the CIA have, and I
42:11
don't know this, but like who has the most comprehensive
42:14
pastry program that when you've worked with a lot of pastry
42:17
students, like they're, they're, they're coming out with the most
42:20
well-rounded skill set usually. Yes, for sure.
42:22
Well is in the the program two years.
42:24
Yeah, it's a two year associates program.
42:26
You can do bachelor's as well. It's the way that it's designed.
42:31
It's it's basically in in 3rd. So you do your first you went to
42:35
the CIA. Did you know?
42:36
No, I've been to the CIA, but not for like my main education.
42:38
So it's like the first semester, if you will, which is a lot of
42:41
the academics, and then you get your start getting your hands
42:45
dirty and then your ex friendship is in the middle and
42:48
then you go back for the remaining.
42:51
And OK, so let's say they graduate from CIA and it's like,
42:53
OK, where do I go? Do I go the hotel route?
42:55
Do I go the Country Club route? Do I go independent restaurants?
42:57
I. Do have to say the Culinary
42:59
Institute, definitely at least 25 years ago when I was there
43:03
was geared more towards the hotel route.
43:06
For pastry. For pastry, for sure it's.
43:09
Because they have a lot more opportunities usually, yeah.
43:12
And so I felt, I knew that I want, I was living in in
43:15
Brooklyn and I went up to school for that hiatus and then went
43:18
back to Brooklyn. I knew that I was going back to
43:21
New York. I didn't come out of that
43:22
program thinking I was feeling super well connected.
43:25
The chefs didn't have that same connection with chefs in New
43:28
York restaurants and fine dining restaurants that they have with
43:32
hotel organizations and larger or larger corporate groups.
43:36
That's just the nature of it. I'm sure that's since changed,
43:39
but there's other more specialized, you know, French
43:42
culinary. Are they still the French
43:43
culinary or they change their name?
43:44
I don't know if that's open anymore.
43:45
I think they changed their name to like, but there's also ICE
43:48
International Culinary Education in in Manhattan.
43:52
So there's two great schools in Manhattan.
43:55
In hindsight, I absolutely love the program and I lose
44:01
invaluable wealth of knowledge. But from a pragmatist
44:05
perspective, sure, I probably could have stayed in the city
44:09
and continued to work full time and gone to school and had an
44:11
incredible education. So you don't have to go to the
44:14
CIA. There's incredible schools and I
44:16
think there's but. If you didn't want to go the CIA
44:19
route, you would tell them, maybe get into a place where
44:21
there's a very successful Patriot chef that you could
44:23
learn under with a large pastry department.
44:26
Yeah, and I think, you know, I, the only hotel I ever worked at
44:29
was Canyon Ranch and it's a spa, so it was different, learned a
44:33
lot. But in terms of pastry was there
44:35
was some limitations because of the cuisine.
44:38
But I think that's a great exposure for young cooks because
44:41
it does give you structure. There is opportunity to do much
44:45
like a culinary school. You have access to so much more
44:47
than you do bigger machines. Yeah.
44:49
More toys to play with, larger kitchen, larger like a crew of
44:55
of teammates to to learn from as well which I think is super.
44:58
Important as opposed to a small restaurant where it's just like
45:00
you you. We, we, you mentioned going the
45:05
Country Club route. I did my internship at a Country
45:07
Club in Florida and for pastry, like the, the pastry department
45:13
was like insane. Like, yeah, it had their own,
45:16
like their own floor. It was like they had a French
45:19
pastry stuff. So I feel like for pastry, it's
45:23
it's it's very much like repetition and like you get a
45:26
lot more reps and practice going that route.
45:29
I I think I thought it was like kind of awesome that I did my
45:32
internship because I got to see that I was like, hell no, I
45:35
don't want to do that. I want to be in restaurant,
45:37
right. I mean, and it was like, good,
45:38
you know? Yeah, yeah, it was like it was
45:40
the opposite effect. Yeah, we had.
45:41
Stuck. There we had a bakery we had, so
45:43
we had bread programs, we had a bakery, we had two restaurants.
45:46
Like it was great for me to have that experience.
45:49
I'm super glad it was a great learning experience.
45:52
What about like a? High end grocery store now,
45:54
because like some high end grocery stores, like they make
45:56
great bread, they make great pastries, make cakes.
45:59
I mean, is that like, like would you tell an 18 year old CIA
46:04
culinary graduate that wants to be a pastry chef?
46:06
Like, hey, why don't you go work in Whole Foods and work in their
46:09
bread department for a while? We actually had one of my bread
46:13
chefs, two of them actually were alums from Whole Foods, like way
46:17
back when, you know, this was 2003.
46:20
So they, they spoke so highly of Whole Foods in general, but just
46:26
of that learning the bread program, like I think it's an
46:28
incredible route to take. I think when, when I was in
46:31
culinary school, I think we were all really wanting to get into
46:33
like food writing and styling because that was sort of on the
46:37
precipice of what was happening, right?
46:39
The Food Network was blowing up back then.
46:43
I think it was important for me to have exposure and to
46:46
understand that there was much more than just going the
46:49
traditional restaurant route or hotel route, that there's
46:52
opportunities in this industry to do so much more.
46:54
And I think, yeah, I mean high in grocery stores, food styling,
46:58
all of that. There's so many opportunities to
47:00
do to be a pastry chef in a non traditional way.
47:03
OK, last question. I'm a young pastry chef and I'm
47:06
just thinking about money. Where can I go to get paid the
47:08
most? Like what kind of pastry chef do
47:10
I need to become if I want to make the most amount of money I.
47:13
Need to. I'm going to ask you that
47:14
question. I have no idea.
47:16
I'm still not making money. I know what I would say.
47:17
I'm just curious if you agree. I would say like work your way
47:21
up the biggest casinos in Vegas or Macau or something like that.
47:27
Like they they pay their pastry chefs tons, but there's a lot of
47:30
theatrics. There I did a couple events in
47:33
Vegas and cooking in Vegas hotel kitchens were was an incredible
47:37
experience. That was mind blowing.
47:39
I mean, they had any gadget you want, it's there.
47:42
They have access to all of the toys.
47:44
So I think, yeah, if you're going to go that route and you
47:45
want, I mean, it's, it's a hustle.
47:47
It's a lot of hard work and then you're living in a place like
47:49
Vegas. To make money like yeah, that
47:52
and and the theatrics to do it, I think they'll be.
47:55
Take those risks when you're young.
47:56
I mean, it's a lot. It's it's easy to reinvent
47:59
yourself and to move to a new city and make new community for
48:02
yourself when you're young. It gets a lot more challenging
48:04
as you get older. It's still worked on a yacht.
48:08
We are obsessed with Below Deck, so what's?
48:10
Below deck What? Below deck.
48:12
Yeah, what is that? It's like the it's a reality
48:14
show about the people that work on super yachts below deck.
48:18
So it's the deckies, the deckhands and the interior and
48:22
the chef and the IT and captain. It is wild.
48:25
But I mean, of course, because it's Rob or whatever.
48:27
I don't know if I should say that Channel, but did you like
48:31
he loves it? And there's there's a sailing
48:34
yacht version. There's the Med there in the
48:36
Caribbean. I mean, it's wild and
48:37
shenanigans and it's tawdry and it's a skizzy and disgusting.
48:40
But but when you actually like take all that, yes, when you did
48:44
all the trash out of it and you actually just think of like the
48:47
structure of the show, they are, you know, there's 3 or 4
48:50
deckhands and there's 3 or 4 interior and they are it's
48:53
they're in hospitality, they're dealing with like different
48:56
client based energies every three days.
48:58
The only reason I like it is because they have to work.
49:02
Yeah, they like, they can't. They can't be bullshitting.
49:05
Like it's like it's not a. Like 20 hours a day, yeah.
49:08
Literally. For four and they've got cameras
49:10
in their face the. Whole day anyway, I was just
49:13
saying like before Laura, they. Went up, sorry.
49:17
About how she rolled a billion, loves the show.
49:19
It's just so good, like taking those like those risks when
49:23
you're younger, like versus, you know, thinking that you got to
49:26
like grind. I, I did the opposite.
49:29
I, I, you know, grunted it out in kitchens for, you know, 20
49:35
years, keeping my head down before I was like, like this,
49:40
this kind of sucks, you know, and like reserve your energy
49:43
when you're young. I don't know, it feels like
49:47
weird for me to say that now because like my younger self is
49:50
just like no bullshit. I want to just do whatever I
49:53
want and. But now your back hurts.
49:55
And you're right, that's what I mean.
49:57
If I would have told myself like, hey you know what, chill
49:59
out dude. Like.
50:00
You're going to be save some money.
50:02
Yeah, like so buy a property in Austin.
50:06
Kind of weird. I never thought that I would,
50:09
like, say some of the things that I'm saying.
50:11
But now that I'm actually in this point in my life and I, I
50:13
hear myself speak like an older human being and I'm like, wow,
50:16
it's actually happening. Yeah, but yeah, and you take
50:19
those risks when you're young, it's not as easy to, I feel.
50:22
Pretty good. I'm 45.
50:23
You said you're 45 and, and yeah, we're, we're, we're sore
50:27
and that. But like, you know, I still have
50:29
a lot of fun. Doing I can cook circles around
50:32
the 25 year olds so. Look at I for about 10 minutes.
50:35
Yeah, like 10 minutes. I'm fucking good.
50:37
After that I'm a. After they're like help me and
50:42
after food. Someone asked me, They did.
50:46
One of my friends, he's like one of my friends.
50:48
We talk shit to each other all the time, as as close friends
50:52
do. And he's like, you've been
50:53
fucking retired for three years, you can't even cook anymore, I
50:56
said. But I can still fucking tell
50:57
people how to cook really well. That's what it should.
51:01
But you can still tell you you're fucking doing it wrong.
51:03
Better than the, better than all of them?
51:05
Absolutely. So you're saying you're
51:06
officially retired? Yeah, Three years.
51:08
Three years. Three years, yeah.
51:09
Yeah, three years. It's been three years that I
51:11
haven't worked. I mean, I do a lot of
51:13
consulting. I'll go in and write menus and
51:14
teach people, but like being a chef, it's been 3.
51:17
Years do we get to interview in this you in this moment.
51:19
What what did that feel like for you to finally make that shift?
51:25
Because I've I've sort of sorry, I'm going to turn this question
51:28
on to myself. I've reached that crossroads
51:31
many times where I'm like, I don't know if I want to do this
51:35
anymore. Yeah.
51:36
What else would I possibly do though?
51:38
I'm a I'm a chef. I've been a chef for for.
51:41
Me it was trying to figure out how to monetize my knowledge,
51:43
right, because you still got bills to pay and you know,
51:46
lifestyle to support. So I had to figure out like, OK,
51:48
everything that I know is a chef.
51:49
How can I take that knowledge and monetize it a different way
51:52
through books, podcasts, you know, endorsement deals,
51:54
consulting, stuff like that. So that was that was a challenge
51:58
figuring that out. But the other challenge is I
52:02
didn't, I didn't realize how lonely it would be not being a
52:05
chef because I'm naturally introverted.
52:07
Like I, I, I like, I like, I like stay home.
52:09
I'm like quiet. I'm shy.
52:11
I, I avoid people. I'm like people.
52:14
But I thought that's what I wanted because I was always
52:18
around people, hundreds of employees.
52:19
You know, the last job I had, I had like 200 employees, right?
52:23
And, you know, always dealing with problems.
52:25
Like my mind was just always on. And the second that it turned
52:28
off, when I say turned off, I mean like, there's no one to
52:31
interact with and it's just me and my computer.
52:34
I'm like, fuck, this is there's no one to talk to.
52:37
There's no one to brainstorm with.
52:38
There's no one to bullshit with. There's no one to just let me
52:40
just go crack a joke with my susha that didn't exist.
52:43
And then like when I reach out to friends, like, hey, what are
52:45
you doing? Like, we're fucking working.
52:46
Yeah. What are you doing?
52:49
Like, nothing. You want to hang out?
52:51
They're like, no, I'm at work. That was probably like.
52:54
Yeah, that makes a. Lot of that's the hardest part
52:56
is like going from constantly being around people, constantly
53:00
just working by yourself. Yeah, and be having to, you
53:04
know, it's one thing when you're in a kitchen, you're self
53:05
motivated, but there's still people around you.
53:07
It's another thing to have to be self motivated when no one's
53:09
around, dude. You're you're ready for your own
53:12
cooking show. Yeah.
53:14
I think so. Man, maybe.
53:16
You'd be great. Yeah, I mean.
53:18
It's, I mean, I don't know what you would.
53:19
Cook, you just set an induction burner here and do I.
53:21
Have an idea, You know what I would do if like magic wand I
53:25
could do whatever I want. I have two ideas but one I one I
53:27
enjoy. So first idea would be like go
53:30
into my recipe books. I started cooking in 1995 so get
53:34
all my recipe books from 1995 to when I retired and just make
53:38
those dishes exactly like we did.
53:40
That would be like parsley on the ring, you know, fucking like
53:44
zigzag balsamic, like just all the cheesy shit to the more
53:47
modern stuff and like and like and like played it for everyone
53:51
to say like I know this looks bad, but this was great in in
53:54
2000. I would do that.
53:56
The other idea I would have and people could steal this idea.
53:59
Just give me credit. I would love for someone to say,
54:03
here's a restaurant, make the menu and cook every dish like
54:05
randomly like OK, open a Takadia go and I'd have to make every
54:10
dish okay. Open an Italian restaurant, go.
54:12
And I want to see if I could like how good can I make food
54:14
with random concepts that people throw at me?
54:17
Like, could it be, you know, for TV, could it be as good as the
54:21
best of the best? I'm really seeing this this
54:25
evolution of your recipes, but in the.
54:27
I'm thinking of the frost. I think that's gonna make a
54:29
beautiful cookbook. Frosted tips.
54:32
What about your hair? You're gonna.
54:33
No, you turn it into the next guy, Fietti.
54:37
I didn't wear Frost. I used to wear the big ass FUBU.
54:40
Yeah, Pelli Pell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was, I was,
54:42
I was definitely rocking that. I had my my my low rider cholo
54:46
phase. You know, I was, I was doing all
54:48
that. It's funny because the, the eras
54:49
that we grew up in, you know, we're all kind of, you know,
54:51
from the same era. It's like, man, it was so good
54:55
when there was no cell phones. Oh yeah, it was so good when
54:57
there was no social media and like the if you wanted privacy,
55:00
you just went to the pay phone. So no, listen to the other
55:03
phone. Right.
55:04
You know what we're talking about the other day, talking
55:05
about about party line. Did you?
55:07
Oh yes, for those of you who didn't grow up with a landline
55:12
party line was you could call somebody and then put them on
55:18
hold by hanging up once, dialing another number and then you
55:22
click on the hang up again and it if it combines the so it's a
55:27
three-way call and then you would like.
55:31
That's how you would catch the callers I.
55:33
Told you like yeah, it's like those little things that we grew
55:39
up with that like I love and like Laura grew up in
55:43
Connecticut and I grew up in El Paso and like around the same
55:47
time so we have these like shared moments even though we're
55:50
like in the opposite side, you know the country we.
55:54
Were both watching cartoons at 6:00 in the morning on a
55:56
Saturday? Fucking cartoons back then were
55:57
the best. Yeah.
55:58
Same cartoon and like so we have these like oh.
56:00
Remember that? Oh, look.
56:01
At that oh that toy Oh yeah so like I love that about like pre
56:06
cell phone like pre. Having to talk to.
56:08
The Internet having to talk to people.
56:11
We were just talking about that on in the a friend of ours who
56:15
was like on this dating app and like had an amazing like 48
56:20
hours and then all of a sudden it was like the guy like ghosted
56:24
ghosted me. And I was just like talking
56:26
about like how weird it is for me to even think about that
56:30
because we started dating before there was any dating apps.
56:34
So like that, that like that one thing is just like, so, so it's
56:37
like I'm like trying to like theorize like, well, maybe
56:41
because, you know, the apps are making guys too much of like,
56:46
you know. It's too easy.
56:48
Yeah, and then and then like me. Back in our day, we had me.
56:51
When I first moved to Austin, like thinking like I'm gonna
56:55
like, you know, crush it in the dating game and as a young 25
56:59
year old and like getting rejected in like to your face,
57:03
you know, right. Not like without not knowing
57:06
anything about wiping in the Yeah.
57:07
Not like she's 29 and you know, like this like there's like
57:12
information that you have about a person before they reject you.
57:15
And then like, like me remembering going up to like
57:20
random person and like trying to like, you know.
57:23
For lack of a better word, we had to.
57:25
We had to raw dog it. You had to go to a bar and you
57:29
had to talk to somebody and you know.
57:32
I get the courage to to like walk over there.
57:36
I don't know. Now it's like.
57:38
We met we met through a friend and I was actually you were
57:42
dating somebody, but I. But we knew.
57:44
We knew. Like I knew you as a chef when
57:46
you moved into town. I was like, man, fucking Renee
57:49
and Laura are bad ass, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
57:51
New York chefs like I back then, there wasn't back then, there
57:55
was no building next to La Canessa.
57:58
There was like a parking lot. A parking lot, right?
58:00
You remember that? Yeah.
58:02
And. And yeah.
58:03
I remember, I remember using their their dumpster.
58:05
Yeah, yeah. They did have a beautiful
58:08
gigantic dumpster. But yeah, but then like, you
58:11
know. Time string.
58:12
Oh man, it was yeah, that was the W was just a hole in the
58:15
ground. And then they started building
58:17
it and it was scaffolding and it just, we watched that whole
58:19
thing go up. But it was a totally different,
58:21
you know, even just say 16 years ago when I moved here, it was a
58:24
totally different fiddy, totally different culinary landscape for
58:28
sure. I mean, there was just one of
58:30
everything, you know? So normally when we wrap up the
58:33
show, I asked just a couple of questions to the guests.
58:35
So one of the questions is like if there was a Mount Rushmore of
58:39
chefs. But because I didn't get to this
58:42
question earlier, if there was a Mount Rushmore of desserts, like
58:45
4 desserts that you think are the most important desserts.
58:49
Pressure. Pressure is on.
58:51
Precious dish. What are the four most important
58:55
desserts to you? Well, this could be a round
58:57
table, I don't know. If it's I, I, I don't know.
59:00
Let's see. Like you're talking classic.
59:02
Classic. So the goats we're talking.
59:03
Like like what are the four goats that will last that were
59:07
popular then and will be popular moving forward?
59:10
I mean, you got to throw in like a creme brulee.
59:13
Yeah, I mean any custard. So any custard creme brulee for
59:16
sure. That's true.
59:19
I prefer flan over a creme brulee.
59:21
But I know that's kind of divisive and people will have
59:23
their opinions on it, but I like I like flan.
59:25
I think it's just yeah, old school.
59:27
I mean, I think a flowerless classic.
59:28
Flan is perfect. Great chocolate flour.
59:32
Perfect scoop of ice cream. No, no, no, yes.
59:35
No, no. What flavor?
59:38
So here's the thing, my family being from Argentina gulselechi
59:42
ice cream is like is our goat. It's my sister and my mom are
59:45
obsessed with it. My dad on the other hand likes
59:47
chocolate and vanilla. He's old school.
59:49
He's chocolate or vanilla. I sort of find myself leaning in
59:52
that chocolate or vanilla. So when I was still back at
59:55
launderette, I made what I think is truly the most perfect ice
59:58
cream I've ever made in my life. And it was marbled chocolate and
1:00:01
vanilla squirrel with a ribbon and fudge.
1:00:04
Because it was also inspired, was inspired by my dad, but also
1:00:07
because as a kid, my favorite. Baskin-robbins ice cream was
1:00:12
world class chocolate and it was white, dark and milk chocolate
1:00:15
all marbled together. It's, it's like we tried it
1:00:18
together like back in El Paso a couple years ago.
1:00:20
It's like chewy and there's just, you know, from the, the,
1:00:23
the scoop going in the scoop going in, there was little bits
1:00:25
of ice that would form in it. So it's a little, it was so
1:00:27
good. Anyway, So I at launderette, I
1:00:29
did my homage to that was chocolate vanilla.
1:00:32
So I think I'm right down. I don't think.
1:00:33
I could keep we have flan, we have ice cream, we have
1:00:36
flourless chocolate, and then what's the fork?
1:00:39
Like probably I'd have to go in like a croissant route, you
1:00:43
know, I'd have to think of croissant or maybe we throw a
1:00:46
fifth one in perfect doughnut. Yeah, perfect and fuck.
1:00:50
Yeah, I mean a cake. Perfect.
1:00:52
Old fashioned I want to say like New York style cheesecake with
1:00:56
Raspberry cooling. Yes, okay, and let's take the
1:01:00
doughnut out. Yes.
1:01:01
So we're just naming desserts from the 80s that were really
1:01:03
popular. Basically, yeah, yeah.
1:01:05
Dude, I love old cuisine. It's like my favorite, my
1:01:08
favorite chefs Marco Pierre White and.
1:01:10
We've since restarted watching the the old school OG Iron Chef
1:01:16
and it is blast aesthetically. Wild The food is strange.
1:01:20
You're. Like, oh.
1:01:21
What is this? What is it's?
1:01:22
Wild. It's we actually we've enjoyed
1:01:24
it quite a bit. It's a real like visual
1:01:26
throwback. We might have to audit the the
1:01:29
the one episode we watched was the the Japanese chef that
1:01:33
trained in Mexico and so he was. You could do a whole you made.
1:01:36
Tortillas and shit, really and, and, but he was up against the
1:01:40
Italian chef and the Italian chef erroneously was fucking
1:01:45
talking, talking shit about like how Italian Peppers are better
1:01:49
than Mexican Peppers. Like what the?
1:01:52
Fuck they were. They were throwing so much shade
1:01:54
towards Mexico. We were like, this is.
1:01:56
History lesson. History lesson, folks.
1:01:58
In a culinary. Arena Chili's were brought to
1:02:01
Italy from Mexico. Yeah, yeah.
1:02:03
Yeah, Well, well, chef, last, last question.
1:02:06
If you had a chef's PSA out there, what would what would you
1:02:08
tell? What would you tell the young
1:02:09
cooks? I say, I like to say like, own
1:02:15
your shit, you know, like your own your shit.
1:02:19
Like if you make a mistake, fess up to it, learn from it, move on
1:02:24
and just don't do it again. I love that.
1:02:25
Own your shit. That that, that is perfect,
1:02:28
Succinct, short. Own your shit.
1:02:29
Yeah, well, where can people find you?
1:02:33
At So wakey wakey wakey wakey No At so wakey wakey on Instagram
1:02:37
and. At oseo touch your table.
1:02:43
If you want to see me, I'll touch your table at Oseo.
1:02:45
Yes, there you. Go at cantinflado, can't see me
1:02:51
at oseo and. It's stand up.
1:02:54
And it's hopefully doing stand up.
1:02:55
Yeah, well, I might, I might have another show coming up.
1:02:58
We'll see you on Kill Tony soon enough.
1:03:00
I gotta, yeah, I gotta work my way up to that.
1:03:03
I know they're brutal. No, let's do some open mic.
1:03:06
We'll do an open mic circuit and for sure.
1:03:08
We'll got to do that. Yeah.
1:03:10
All right. We'll eat a comedy club near
1:03:11
you. Thank you guys.
1:03:12
It was great. It was a great talk.
1:03:13
Thanks. Super fun.
1:03:14
Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us dude.
1:03:16
I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you want to support Chefs
1:03:18
PSA, here's some things that you can do.
1:03:20
You can go to chefspsa.com where you get all the books that I
1:03:24
published, including some free ebooks.
1:03:26
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1:03:30
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1:03:34
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1:03:43
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1:03:44
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1:03:47
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1:03:49
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1:03:51
nothing less than five stars. It's a five star podcast.
1:03:55
We'll see you next week at the Porno.
1:03:56
Me No. Small drink in the kitchen
1:03:59
mixing. Drop the chef knowledge, no
1:04:01
fiction. Stirring up the beats.
1:04:03
Heat enough the session. Listen.
1:04:04
Close classes in session.