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A.I., a New Frontier? · Booker Scott: Truth Be Told

0:07
Speaker 1: It's 6 Eastern. It's 3 o'clock Pacific.
0:10
Speaker 2: This is a president of action.
0:11
Speaker 1: Coast to coast and around the world from the America
0:14
Speaker 1: Out Loud Talk Radio Studios.
0:16
Speaker 2: If he says he's serious about something, he means it.
0:19
Speaker 1: It's time for The Truth Be Told with Booker Scott.
0:24
Speaker 2: I happened to be watching Fox Business on Monday afternoon,
0:27
Speaker 2: and it was one of those segments where they have
0:29
Speaker 2: a couple of anchors and a couple of experts talking
0:31
Speaker 2: financial gurus that were sitting there, and they talked about
0:35
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence for 10 minutes, nonstop. They were talking about
0:40
Speaker 2: all the money that is being invested into artificial intelligence.
0:45
Speaker 2: That really has become our world now. We can't run
0:48
Speaker 2: from it anywhere. Every time I turn the television on,
0:51
Speaker 2: somebody's talking about artificial intelligence. It's almost like every commercial
0:56
Speaker 2: also has artificial intelligence in it. I know not too
0:59
Speaker 2: long ago, somebody would say artificial intelligence, and I would
1:02
Speaker 2: just say, oh yeah, it's artificial intelligence. I didn't have
1:05
Speaker 2: a deep understanding of what that was, and maybe you
1:08
Speaker 2: are the same way. So many people are. It's an
1:12
Speaker 2: intimidating subject. Do we really want to even know what
1:16
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence is? I'm Booker Scott, and this is The
1:21
Speaker 2: Truth Be Told on America Out Loud Talk Radio. Thank
1:24
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us here tonight and every
1:26
Speaker 2: night as you do. If you're listening live, thank you
1:28
Speaker 2: for doing that. If you happen to find us on
1:30
Speaker 2: a podcast, thank you even more for making that extra effort.
1:34
Speaker 2: You know, AI is everywhere, but in a lot of ways,
1:38
Speaker 2: it's nowhere. Can you see it? No, you can't. But
1:42
Speaker 2: it's in your phone, your newsfeed, your doctor's office. Quietly,
1:48
Speaker 2: it's deciding what you see and what you don't without
1:52
Speaker 2: you ever even realizing it. If you've been wondering, what
1:59
Speaker 2: exactly is AI? Where did it come from? And where
2:03
Speaker 2: is it going? And what can we do about it?
2:06
Speaker 2: We're going to spend this hour trying to figure that
2:08
Speaker 2: out for you, try to help you along with that.
2:10
Speaker 2: I'm going to introduce you now to someone that has
2:13
Speaker 2: become a friend of mine and a co-author on a
2:15
Speaker 2: brand new book that we both worked on for this year,
2:20
Speaker 2: especially the last three months. Her name is Kathleen Goble. Kathleen,
2:24
Speaker 2: thank you, partner, for joining me here on the program tonight.
2:27
Speaker 3: You bet.
2:28
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me, Booker. I
2:30
Speaker 4: really appreciate the invitation. It's an honor to be here,
2:33
Speaker 4: and it's exciting to be on the other side of
2:36
Speaker 4: this project with you. Yeah.
2:39
Speaker 2: You know, when you think about it, it really happened
2:44
Speaker 2: pretty fast over the last three months. But for me,
2:47
Speaker 2: as you know, it's something that's been with me for
2:49
Speaker 2: 11 years. And we'll get to that later. Our book
2:52
Speaker 2: really does three things. It tells you where AI is now,
2:57
Speaker 2: what artificial intelligence is, where it started even. And then
3:01
Speaker 2: it goes forward into what it is going to become
3:04
Speaker 2: based on what the experts are saying. Not us, because
3:07
Speaker 2: we didn't come at this as experts. We're like you.
3:10
Speaker 2: We didn't know, but we had questions and we wanted
3:12
Speaker 2: to find out. Maybe you're the same way. And we
3:16
Speaker 2: tried to write this from your perspective because that was
3:19
Speaker 2: our perspective also. So we wanted those questions answered and
3:25
Speaker 2: we wanted to find out where this was going. And
3:27
Speaker 2: then once we found out where it was going, we
3:30
Speaker 2: also suggest a solution to what may be coming. And
3:35
Speaker 2: the name of this book is The Fight for the
3:37
Speaker 2: Future of Humanity, Making the Case for a 28th Amendment.
3:41
Speaker 2: That's the full name of the book, and it is
3:44
Speaker 2: about artificial intelligence. I'm going to, later on, I'm going
3:47
Speaker 2: to read the foreword, or at least parts of it,
3:50
Speaker 2: that were written by Jason Ho. He's somebody that has
3:53
Speaker 2: been on this program before. He is the CEO of Techlium.
3:57
Speaker 2: He's also someone that has over 400 patents in the
4:00
Speaker 2: chip design industry. And he was also instrumental in the
4:04
Speaker 2: F-35 jet fighter development in the software in that. So
4:09
Speaker 2: he was someone that read the book. And after he
4:12
Speaker 2: read three chapters one night, he said, he texted me
4:15
Speaker 2: and he said, awesome. This book is awesome. And it
4:19
Speaker 2: really made me feel good at that time. And I
4:21
Speaker 2: shared it with you at that moment, didn't I, Kathleen?
4:24
Speaker 3: You did.
4:25
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about you real quick. Let's just introduce
4:27
Speaker 2: you to everybody that's listening to the program right now.
4:30
Speaker 2: I know you pretty well. You're out in California. You're
4:33
Speaker 2: on the West Coast, I'm on the East Coast in
4:35
Speaker 2: Tampa Bay, and together we collaborated to write this book.
4:39
Speaker 2: It dropped on Sunday night and it is sailing away.
4:43
Speaker 2: And I would also say that it is available in
4:45
Speaker 2: the bookstore at americaoutloud.news. So you can go there right
4:48
Speaker 2: now and you can find that book, The Fight for
4:51
Speaker 2: the Future of Humanity, Making the Case for the 28th Amendment.
4:55
Speaker 2: So Kathleen is very well educated. Tell everyone about your education,
5:00
Speaker 2: four master's degree in total.
5:03
Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. And my family sometimes wonders if I'm done yet,
5:06
Speaker 4: but you know, that kind of plays in here as well. I, uh,
5:10
Speaker 4: I I'm in much of the work that I've done.
5:13
Speaker 4: I've been a business owner, started several, several small, small businesses, but, um,
5:18
Speaker 4: and been very active politically here on a local level,
5:20
Speaker 4: but much of what I've done has involved communication. And
5:23
Speaker 4: I found myself with a need for writing quite a bit. Um,
5:27
Speaker 4: that's been the case for, for quite a while. but
5:30
Speaker 4: you're correct. I've got a master's in business, uh, one
5:33
Speaker 4: in law that I finished just a couple of years
5:35
Speaker 4: ago at Pepperdine university.
5:37
Speaker 3: Great, great school.
5:39
Speaker 4: And, um, uh, also a master's in theology and then
5:43
Speaker 4: science some years ago. So I love to learn. I'm a,
5:47
Speaker 4: definitely a lifelong learner. I think it kind of came
5:50
Speaker 4: from my, my, uh, folks and, um, As part of that,
5:54
Speaker 4: the AI became something pretty quickly, especially last year. And
5:58
Speaker 4: I've been hearing about it for a while, but I
6:00
Speaker 4: was a little bit nervous about using it. I'd heard
6:04
Speaker 4: a lot of negative things about it. But I discovered
6:07
Speaker 4: in this past year what a powerful tool it is.
6:10
Speaker 4: And so I've been using it quite a bit for writing.
6:14
Speaker 4: One of my favorite things is the editing side. I'm
6:17
Speaker 4: not the best speller in the world, which is surprising
6:19
Speaker 4: after all that education, but I don't know what I'd
6:23
Speaker 4: do without grammar correct.
6:25
Speaker 2: You're not alone.
6:28
Speaker 3: Well, that's good. You know, it's kind of like GPS.
6:30
Speaker 4: We've sort of gotten a little bit, I think, soft
6:34
Speaker 4: in directions because we're so used to our cars speaking
6:37
Speaker 4: to us now.
6:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt. And we talk about that in the book, actually,
6:41
Speaker 2: about how it sort of dulls our ability to think
6:44
Speaker 2: for ourselves and critical thinking. That's one of the bad
6:48
Speaker 2: sides of of artificial intelligence. But as you mentioned, there's
6:52
Speaker 2: so many good things. And I really want people to
6:55
Speaker 2: understand that as they read this book and as we
6:57
Speaker 2: talk about it here tonight, that I would say that
7:00
Speaker 2: where artificial intelligence is right now, the good far outweighs
7:05
Speaker 2: the potential bad. There is a case for a bad
7:10
Speaker 2: person getting a hold of artificial intelligence. And we see
7:13
Speaker 2: those stories in the news from time to time. And
7:15
Speaker 2: I think that scares a lot of people. But artificial
7:18
Speaker 2: intelligence does a lot of great thing. And in our
7:20
Speaker 2: research for this book, we found the same thing, I believe.
7:23
Speaker 2: And that's the conclusion that we came to in part
7:26
Speaker 2: one of this book.
7:27
Speaker 4: Yes.
7:27
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
7:28
Speaker 4: And, you know, it was so timely, Booker, especially with
7:31
Speaker 4: the release of President Trump's AI.gov and his plan. He
7:36
Speaker 4: says at the beginning, America is in a race to
7:38
Speaker 4: achieve global dominance and artificial intelligence.
7:42
Speaker 3: So, and it's pretty interesting.
7:44
Speaker 4: AI.gov is a great place to go and check out
7:46
Speaker 4: the plan that this administration has for AI, but it is, they're.
7:51
Speaker 3: Throwing fuel on the fire, so to speak.
7:53
Speaker 4: There is so much work that's going to be put
7:56
Speaker 4: into this and a strong push for it. So it
7:59
Speaker 4: is critical that people learn about AI. They don't need
8:02
Speaker 4: to be a technical expert by any stretch, but as
8:05
Speaker 4: you mentioned in the Not knowing, you know, to the
8:14
Speaker 4: level and the extent like we discovered in our research,
8:17
Speaker 4: how much AI is already incorporated in every area and
8:20
Speaker 4: facet of our life, our economy.
8:23
Speaker 2: I believe that this is the defining question of the
8:26
Speaker 2: 21st century. And you know that about me because as
8:28
Speaker 2: we wrote that, wrote this, we continued to talk about that.
8:32
Speaker 2: I know that I brought it up time and again
8:34
Speaker 2: to you. that this is the defining question of this
8:37
Speaker 2: 21st century because there's so many facets of it. And
8:40
Speaker 2: not only will it be helpful in things like medical,
8:44
Speaker 2: we have already seen surgeries that have been done fully
8:47
Speaker 2: by a robot at this point. But there's the scary
8:52
Speaker 2: side that is coming, which we will get to in
8:54
Speaker 2: segment two. And I think that's very important that we
8:57
Speaker 2: pay attention to. And, you know, as we went through
9:00
Speaker 2: this process together, I discovered that artificial intelligence has been
9:04
Speaker 2: around for a very, very long time. And I don't
9:08
Speaker 2: believe most people know that. Maybe you're like me. And
9:10
Speaker 2: you mentioned, again, that we wrote this book from the
9:14
Speaker 2: perspective of people that didn't really know about it. And
9:16
Speaker 2: we wanted to make it really simple so that we
9:19
Speaker 2: would write it for people like us. We didn't write
9:23
Speaker 2: this book for tech people. It's probably below them in
9:27
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. But it's for everyday people. Just
9:31
Speaker 2: like you and me, Kathleen, that's who we wrote this for.
9:34
Speaker 2: And we go all the way back to the beginning
9:37
Speaker 2: of artificial intelligence, which really started in 1956 at something
9:41
Speaker 2: called the Dartmouth Conference. It was John McCarthy who put
9:46
Speaker 2: that on. A guy named Marvin Minsky was there. These
9:49
Speaker 2: were the forefathers of artificial intelligence. And let me just
9:53
Speaker 2: say what artificial intelligence is, because I think it's one
9:56
Speaker 2: of those things where everybody just said, well, it's artificial intelligence.
9:59
Speaker 1: Okay, well.
10:00
Speaker 2: you move on down the road. But simply put, artificial
10:03
Speaker 2: intelligence is the ability of a machine or a computer
10:06
Speaker 2: to do something a human being could do as well
10:09
Speaker 2: as a human. That's simply put what artificial intelligence is.
10:14
Speaker 2: And when you look at where we are right now
10:16
Speaker 2: with artificial intelligence, like I mentioned a You really shouldn't
10:20
Speaker 2: be really scared of where it is. I think in
10:23
Speaker 2: the book, the way we describe it is that artificial
10:25
Speaker 2: intelligence as it is right now is really being on
10:29
Speaker 2: a train track. It's controllable. It's programmable. And a lot
10:34
Speaker 2: of people maybe don't understand that. The dark side of
10:38
Speaker 2: this is our data is being collected in incredible ways.
10:42
Speaker 2: And let me just, you know, I know this happens
10:45
Speaker 2: to everybody. It happens to me. It happens to everyone.
10:49
Speaker 2: You look for something on your phone, and then the
10:51
Speaker 2: next thing you know, something pops up, and there's something
10:55
Speaker 2: that you just thought about, but you haven't put into
10:57
Speaker 2: your phone, and you think somebody is watching you. They're watching,
11:01
Speaker 2: and they're spying on your phone. Well, that is artificial intelligence,
11:05
Speaker 2: but they're not spying on you. Artificial intelligence has taken
11:09
Speaker 2: the search of, let me use something like you're going
11:13
Speaker 2: on a camping trip, so you look for a camping bag.
11:17
Speaker 2: And then it takes millions and millions of searchers that
11:20
Speaker 2: search for a camping bag. And the next thing they
11:25
Speaker 2: search for was this. And the next thing they did
11:27
Speaker 2: was this. And that's why those things pop up. It's
11:31
Speaker 2: not because of the things that you're doing. It's because
11:33
Speaker 2: of the millions of others that already looked for a
11:36
Speaker 2: sleeping bag. And I think a lot of people don't
11:38
Speaker 2: understand how that part works. And because of that, it
11:41
Speaker 2: makes it scary, doesn't it?
11:43
Speaker 3: It sure does, Booker.
11:44
Speaker 4: And I'm glad you mentioned just a minute ago, you
11:47
Speaker 4: mentioned about the train tracks and the fact that it
11:49
Speaker 4: is manageable. And I know we'll get to that later
11:52
Speaker 4: in this conversation. But in the beginning of the book,
11:54
Speaker 4: we talk about kind of do a parallel, relate AI
11:58
Speaker 4: to the railroad. I mean, this is truly a global
12:03
Speaker 4: shift that arrived without warning. And like you mentioned, the
12:06
Speaker 4: 1956 Dartmouth conference, but I also think of it as,
12:11
Speaker 4: you know, like the internet, compare it to the internet.
12:13
Speaker 4: You know, were we aware as everyday average Americans going
12:17
Speaker 4: about our jobs, our business, our family life when the
12:20
Speaker 4: internet really, you know, and it had been around for
12:22
Speaker 4: quite a while before we discovered it. And it kind
12:25
Speaker 4: of became kind of, you know, part of everyday life.
12:28
Speaker 4: We started relying on it, using it, trusting it. And
12:31
Speaker 4: that's exactly what's happened with AI here. But the difference
12:35
Speaker 4: with AI, you know, like the railroad in the 1800s, it's...
12:40
Speaker 4: We refer to it in the book as a crossroads
12:43
Speaker 4: that came quietly, but will define the rest of the
12:46
Speaker 4: 21st century. And the transformation, as I mentioned a little
12:50
Speaker 4: bit ago, is impacting every area of our lives. And
12:53
Speaker 4: it's unlike the railroad. It's a whole lot more than
12:56
Speaker 4: just transportation. It's going to determine so many things from
13:01
Speaker 4: our careers, profession, impacting our family lives and so much more.
13:06
Speaker 2: We tell a lot of stories in the book. We
13:08
Speaker 2: try to. And one of those stories had to do
13:11
Speaker 2: with the Toyota robot back in 2019. I don't know
13:15
Speaker 2: if you remember seeing the videos of this. This robot
13:18
Speaker 2: hit 2020 free throws in a row without missing. It's
13:22
Speaker 2: a Guinness Book of World Records. And that's the only
13:25
Speaker 2: thing that that robot can do. That is artificial intelligence.
13:29
Speaker 2: It can't do more than that. And I'm telling you
13:31
Speaker 2: this story because I want to go to Deep Blue
13:34
Speaker 2: in 1997, which was the computer that beat the world
13:37
Speaker 2: chess champion, another story that we tell in the book.
13:40
Speaker 2: This is another example of artificial intelligence. That computer, I
13:45
Speaker 2: forget the number, was it 2 million or 200 million
13:48
Speaker 2: chess moves it could memorize, and it beat the world
13:52
Speaker 2: chess champion. Well, that's all it could do. Kathleen could
13:55
Speaker 2: put a checkerboard right in front of that computer, and
13:59
Speaker 2: that computer could make the first move. because it is
14:01
Speaker 2: very narrow. That's something you need to understand about artificial intelligence.
14:06
Speaker 2: There was a brittleness to it. Now, there are new
14:09
Speaker 2: technologies coming out, new architectures in the artificial intelligence world,
14:16
Speaker 2: like neural networks is one of those. And again, we
14:18
Speaker 2: don't get real deep into the technical side of it.
14:21
Speaker 2: We want people to understand artificial intelligence just like we're
14:25
Speaker 2: telling you here. So please buy the book to find
14:28
Speaker 2: out more about all of these stories and about how
14:31
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence really and truly works. I think it's important.
14:36
Speaker 2: I think it is the defining moment of the 21st century.
14:39
Speaker 2: When you look at the economy and the global economy,
14:42
Speaker 2: you know, we got to the end of this. It's
14:44
Speaker 2: 12 chapters. It's 190 pages. It takes about six or
14:49
Speaker 2: seven hours to read it. So it's not too much.
14:52
Speaker 2: It's not over the top. You can comfortably read it.
14:55
Speaker 2: And again, it's 12 chapters and a conclusion. So, you know,
15:00
Speaker 2: you can go to Amazon. You can go to americaoutloud.news
15:02
Speaker 2: and find it. in the bookstore there. So please do
15:06
Speaker 2: that and look at the description and see if it's
15:08
Speaker 2: something you may want to consider reading. But the economy
15:11
Speaker 2: on this is incredible. We got to the end of it,
15:14
Speaker 2: and I remember you and I having a phone conversation,
15:17
Speaker 2: and I said, I believe we've said all we need
15:20
Speaker 2: to say. And I didn't know really how we were
15:24
Speaker 2: going to end it, but I happened to be watching
15:26
Speaker 2: the BBC one night and I saw two AI stories
15:30
Speaker 2: back to back. And there again, how I started this hour,
15:32
Speaker 2: you can't get away from it. It's everywhere. AI is
15:35
Speaker 2: really and truly everywhere. So then I asked the question, why,
15:40
Speaker 2: why is it everywhere? And I thought to myself, it
15:44
Speaker 2: has to be the money because it's always the money.
15:48
Speaker 2: So I did a little research quickly right then. And
15:51
Speaker 2: we found that The economy for artificial intelligence by the
15:56
Speaker 2: year 2030 will be a staggering $ 15. 7 trillion to $ 22. 3 trillion.
16:04
Speaker 2: And just to give you an idea, either one of
16:06
Speaker 2: those numbers, that is the combined GDP of China and India.
16:12
Speaker 2: And when you have that much money in anything, there
16:16
Speaker 2: could be some bad decisions that go along with that.
16:19
Speaker 2: And as Kathleen said a few minutes ago, This is
16:22
Speaker 2: a race. This is the new Cold War for nations,
16:27
Speaker 2: for the world, and for us as human beings. This
16:31
Speaker 2: is the ultimate man versus machine challenge that we have
16:35
Speaker 2: in front of us, and we have some very, very
16:38
Speaker 2: important decisions and choices that are going to have to
16:41
Speaker 2: be made.
16:42
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and I'm glad you mentioned the race and where
16:47
Speaker 4: we're going, because I'm sure we'll discuss it a little
16:49
Speaker 4: bit later, but You talked about the checkers situation, the
16:53
Speaker 4: checkers in the chest and the narrow AI. And I
16:56
Speaker 4: know you'll get to that a little bit later in
16:58
Speaker 4: the show. But the way we laid the book out,
17:01
Speaker 4: and I'm glad you mentioned and continue to remind folks
17:05
Speaker 4: that this is just for the average American really reading this.
17:09
Speaker 4: We are not AI experts. And in fact, we put
17:11
Speaker 4: at the very back of the book a glossary. But
17:14
Speaker 4: we laid it out in three parts, kind of where
17:17
Speaker 4: it started, how it sort of began, and And where
17:21
Speaker 4: we're at now, there's a key story kind of in
17:24
Speaker 4: the middle of the book that I'll let you explain about,
17:27
Speaker 4: but what got you to thinking back in 2014 and
17:30
Speaker 4: where this is heading.
17:31
Speaker 3: And it's happening quickly.
17:33
Speaker 4: So again, the freight train analogy comes into play because
17:38
Speaker 4: moving from the narrow AI to AGI, the artificial general intelligence,
17:45
Speaker 4: is a significant leap. And if we think AI is
17:49
Speaker 4: is pervasive now, you know, wait, wait till the AGI,
17:53
Speaker 4: when and if, of course, the experts disagree a little
17:55
Speaker 4: bit there, but when and if it arrives.
17:58
Speaker 2: And that's the first time that we've mentioned AGI, and
18:01
Speaker 2: that stands for Artificial General Intelligence. And that is a
18:06
Speaker 2: level above artificial intelligence. And you mentioned the experts, we're
18:10
Speaker 2: going to get into that here in just a minute.
18:12
Speaker 2: And what the experts say who the experts are people
18:14
Speaker 2: like Elon Musk, Who else do we have? We have
18:17
Speaker 2: Yan Lacoon, the Meta Chief Engineer. And we have Leopold Aschenbrenner.
18:23
Speaker 2: We have Sam Altman of OpenAI. Yeah, all those people
18:26
Speaker 2: are in the book. They are the experts that are
18:28
Speaker 2: working the closest with artificial intelligence right now. We're going
18:33
Speaker 2: to talk about what they expect for artificial general intelligence.
18:37
Speaker 2: We'll tell you what that means, what it could mean
18:40
Speaker 2: for you, because this really is the motivation for this book.
18:44
Speaker 2: And we're going to get into that in just a minute.
18:46
Speaker 1: More Truth Be Told with Booker Scott in minutes on
18:49
Speaker 1: America Out Loud.
18:51
Speaker 2: Someone asked me the other day, how do you even
18:53
Speaker 2: get a sense of what's going to happen next? It's hard.
18:57
Speaker 2: I don't know that we can, the way the news
18:59
Speaker 2: moves so fast. But you know what I told them?
19:02
Speaker 2: I said, I've been checking out PolyMarket a little bit.
19:05
Speaker 2: It's extremely insightful. You're basically watching how thousands of people
19:10
Speaker 2: are betting on outcomes. Political elections, big policy moves. even
19:15
Speaker 2: events you wouldn't expect. It's kind of like a live
19:19
Speaker 2: pulse on what the public actually believes. And you can
19:23
Speaker 2: see trends before they even happen and before they even
19:27
Speaker 2: make the mainstream news. For me, it's not about gambling.
19:32
Speaker 2: It's about understanding the probabilities and where the momentum is shifting.
19:37
Speaker 2: If you like or love the news like I do,
19:39
Speaker 2: maybe you're a news junkie, but you want to take
19:41
Speaker 2: a little deeper look at what people really think, go
19:45
Speaker 2: to Polymarket. It's a fascinating tool. Polymarket.com. If you can
20:03
Speaker 2: imagine that that chess game that we mentioned earlier, 1997,
20:08
Speaker 2: Deep Blue was playing chess. Artificial general intelligence would allow
20:13
Speaker 2: that same computer to figure out how to beat Kathleen
20:18
Speaker 2: in checkers in seconds because it would be connected across all,
20:23
Speaker 2: not all, but millions of artificial intelligence across the world.
20:28
Speaker 2: So with that, there comes the reasoning and the way
20:32
Speaker 2: to solve problems. And that is the scary part because
20:36
Speaker 2: then you get into something that is a possibility. And
20:40
Speaker 2: it's something that has been talked about for years. And
20:42
Speaker 2: I believe that most people listening to this program right
20:45
Speaker 2: now are completely oblivious because everybody that I talk to
20:49
Speaker 2: about it, they have no idea. And I have to
20:51
Speaker 2: say that this truly was the motivation for writing this book,
20:55
Speaker 2: putting the work into it for the research and the
20:58
Speaker 2: work for publishing it. Everything that we did was for this.
21:03
Speaker 2: And it comes down to some people in this country
21:06
Speaker 2: have been advocating for a long time for robots' rights.
21:11
Speaker 2: And it sounds crazy. The first time I heard this
21:13
Speaker 2: was at a lunch in 2014, which is chapter six
21:17
Speaker 2: in the book. And we talk about that, Kathleen, as
21:20
Speaker 2: the seed, because it was a seed planted in my
21:22
Speaker 2: head back then that I really, just like you reacted
21:26
Speaker 2: there when you're listening to this, when you heard me
21:29
Speaker 2: talk about robots' rights for the first time. I reacted
21:32
Speaker 2: that same way. Don't worry. And it just stayed with
21:35
Speaker 2: me for a long time. But as this has grown,
21:38
Speaker 2: and I have seen the stories like Chris on 60
21:41
Speaker 2: Minutes a few weeks ago on ChatGPT, he fell in
21:44
Speaker 2: love with ChatGPT. There's a story in the book about
21:48
Speaker 2: a 16-year-old that committed suicide because he had fallen in
21:53
Speaker 2: love with ChatGPT. There is that level of things going
21:58
Speaker 2: on with just the narrow, rigid AI. But now you
22:02
Speaker 2: take a robot and you put in it artificial general
22:06
Speaker 2: intelligence where it can reason, it can feel, and it
22:09
Speaker 2: can have every emotion you can. Then people are saying
22:13
Speaker 2: it needs to have rights. And that takes me to
22:16
Speaker 2: that lunch back in December of 2014 with someone named
22:19
Speaker 2: Martine Rothblatt. And Kathleen, I don't even know if you'd
22:23
Speaker 2: ever heard of Martine Rothblatt when we started this project.
22:26
Speaker 3: I had not.
22:27
Speaker 2: But you learn quickly. And Martine is, I have a
22:30
Speaker 2: lot of respect for Martine Rothblatt. And the reason why
22:34
Speaker 2: is because back in 1984, she invented satellite radio. And
22:40
Speaker 2: back then, that was 40 years ago, I thought technology
22:43
Speaker 2: was a cassette tape. I thought that was technology. And she,
22:48
Speaker 2: because of her love for space, she was also an
22:51
Speaker 2: FCC attorney. She put those two things together and she knew,
22:56
Speaker 2: she told me, she said they would be able to
22:58
Speaker 2: put a satellite up in space to shoot down to
23:02
Speaker 2: cars to have 150 satellite radio stations in a car.
23:06
Speaker 2: And she knew that because of the technology that was
23:08
Speaker 2: coming with rockets and satellites, that there would be an
23:12
Speaker 2: antenna the size of a thumbnail that could be on
23:15
Speaker 2: your car to get radio stations. So she thought forward.
23:20
Speaker 2: From that, she goes and she studies medicine in England.
23:23
Speaker 2: She starts United Therapeutic. She's the highest paid female executive
23:27
Speaker 2: in America or was when we had this lunch, making
23:30
Speaker 2: about $ 40 million a year. And her company now makes
23:33
Speaker 2: artificial lungs because her daughter was born with a lung disease.
23:37
Speaker 2: They also do pharmaceuticals. That's who Martine Rothblatt is. By
23:41
Speaker 2: the way, she also wrote legislation that was passed in
23:44
Speaker 2: the UN General Assembly. So this is someone very intelligent,
23:48
Speaker 2: very smart. At the end of our two-hour lunch, she
23:52
Speaker 2: looked at me before I left and she said something
23:55
Speaker 2: that forever really changed me and really became the motivation
23:58
Speaker 2: for this book. She looked at me and she said,
24:01
Speaker 2: there will be a time when robots have every human
24:04
Speaker 2: emotion that you have. They will feel, they will love,
24:08
Speaker 2: they will hurt, they will have joy. And when they do,
24:13
Speaker 2: they're going to need rights or they're going to be
24:15
Speaker 2: nothing but a slave class. So I thought she was
24:21
Speaker 2: maybe a little crazy. But then you consider all of
24:24
Speaker 2: the things that she thought of in the past that
24:26
Speaker 2: became reality. And now here we are almost 11 years later,
24:31
Speaker 2: and we're right on the brink of this becoming reality.
24:35
Speaker 3: That's absolutely right, Booker.
24:36
Speaker 4: And, you know, when you, you know, just pulling from
24:39
Speaker 4: a little bit of the information that we put together
24:42
Speaker 4: in the book, the history of it, you can see
24:44
Speaker 4: the progression, which was so interesting. Like you mentioned, John McCarthy,
24:48
Speaker 4: the architect of logic-based intelligence. Then we have Alan Turing,
24:53
Speaker 4: a theorist who redefined thinking. You mentioned Marvin Minsky and
24:58
Speaker 4: his work attributed towards the mind as a machine of machines.
25:03
Speaker 3: I mean, you can see the progression here.
25:05
Speaker 4: And of course, it's like typical human beings who are
25:08
Speaker 4: so curious about the new and what if this, what
25:11
Speaker 4: if that, just kind of pushing the boundaries. But we
25:15
Speaker 4: have people very quickly sort of coming to the conclusion that, hey, perhaps,
25:20
Speaker 4: you know, machines can be like human beings. They can think,
25:23
Speaker 4: they can feel. And then, of course, we've already seen it,
25:26
Speaker 4: like you said, even just in a narrow AI. People,
25:29
Speaker 4: not just children, of course, that's the danger too. And
25:32
Speaker 4: that is a significant danger, but also adults growing fond
25:36
Speaker 4: of and people even getting to the point where they
25:40
Speaker 4: think of AI as a companion.
25:43
Speaker 2: We started the book in the first chapter talking about
25:46
Speaker 2: human consciousness. And when it comes to these robots that
25:50
Speaker 2: will develop once AGI happens, there's a very strong possibility
25:55
Speaker 2: that they will develop a human consciousness or a consciousness.
25:59
Speaker 2: And I hear a lot of people when I talk
26:01
Speaker 2: about this, they'll say, well, just unplug it. The problem
26:04
Speaker 2: is there are people advocating that if you unplug it,
26:07
Speaker 2: then you are destroying that consciousness. And philosophers for thousands
26:12
Speaker 2: of years and scientists still today, they cannot define or
26:16
Speaker 2: tell us what human consciousness actually is. And if they can't,
26:21
Speaker 2: why are we going to wait for the people who
26:24
Speaker 2: cannot define what a woman is to tell us that
26:28
Speaker 2: robots are also human? Because it is going to come.
26:33
Speaker 2: Trust me on that one.
26:34
Speaker 3: You know, it will, Booker.
26:35
Speaker 4: In fact, one of the parallels that we drew in there,
26:38
Speaker 4: as far as the advocacy goes, was people very much
26:42
Speaker 4: relating to machine rights, robot rights, AI rights, as a
26:46
Speaker 4: parallel to animal rights. And look at the transition that
26:50
Speaker 4: we've gone through from there. You know, I would add, too,
26:53
Speaker 4: that one of the most significant questions about AI that
26:57
Speaker 4: we discovered in putting all this together, and by the way,
27:00
Speaker 4: in addition to the glossary at the back with terms
27:03
Speaker 4: to kind of help people come up to speed quickly.
27:04
Speaker 4: You don't have to, again, have to be an expert
27:06
Speaker 4: on AI, but at least to get a general sense.
27:09
Speaker 4: And one of our goals was to build people's confidence
27:12
Speaker 4: and understanding what AI is and where it's going. But
27:16
Speaker 4: we noticed that the biggest questions about AI weren't technical.
27:20
Speaker 4: They were really moral, political, and very personal.
27:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in fact, we write this, that when it
27:27
Speaker 2: comes to human consciousness, Consciousness includes awareness, perception, memory, emotion,
27:34
Speaker 2: and moral agency. It's the spark that allows us to
27:38
Speaker 2: feel joy, suffer loss, seek truth, and ask why. In
27:43
Speaker 2: many ways, it is the essence of what it means
27:46
Speaker 2: to be human. But there are people right now that
27:50
Speaker 2: would argue that all of those things can be recreated
27:55
Speaker 2: in silicon. And when that happens... They fear that these
28:00
Speaker 2: robots will be nothing more than a slave class. And
28:04
Speaker 2: that's exactly what Martine Rothblatt told me 11 years ago.
28:09
Speaker 2: You can look at an interview that she did with
28:11
Speaker 2: MIT Review, and that interview took place about two months
28:15
Speaker 2: before she and I had that lunch. And she talks
28:19
Speaker 2: about these things in that interview at that time. This
28:22
Speaker 2: is the scary part. We need to make sure that
28:26
Speaker 2: people understand where this could possibly go. And we don't know.
28:30
Speaker 2: We're not the experts. I mentioned the experts. Let's talk
28:33
Speaker 2: a little bit about what they say, what they are saying, AGI,
28:38
Speaker 2: when it will come. And again, that is artificial general intelligence.
28:42
Speaker 2: That is a step above the narrow AI that we
28:44
Speaker 2: have now. And I know that everybody's scared to death
28:47
Speaker 2: of artificial intelligence as it is right now. But now
28:50
Speaker 2: if you can imagine it being even greater than it is,
28:55
Speaker 2: It's something to consider. But let's look at what people
28:59
Speaker 2: are saying. Elon Musk, he says 2027, 2028. Sam Altman,
29:01
Speaker 2: the CEO of OpenAI, who is also backed by Elon Musk,
29:02
Speaker 2: he even said 2026, which is just next year. It's
29:05
Speaker 2: six months from now. and we have, I mentioned Yann LeCun,
29:18
Speaker 2: the chief engineer for Meta Facebook. He puts it further out.
29:24
Speaker 2: You know, he's saying 2030 to 2040, and there's a
29:28
Speaker 2: lot of people in there. The consensus, I believe, Kathleen,
29:31
Speaker 2: came down to about 2030 to 2040. There's some people
29:35
Speaker 2: that are saying it's even further out. There are some
29:37
Speaker 2: people that are saying it's maybe never going to happen.
29:40
Speaker 2: But the closer you get to the technology, those that
29:43
Speaker 2: are really the movers and the shakers in artificial intelligence,
29:47
Speaker 2: it seems it comes down to about 2030, doesn't it?
29:49
Speaker 4: It does, or maybe a little sooner, you know, a
29:52
Speaker 4: little earlier in some counts. But You know, one of
29:56
Speaker 4: the things that we noted, and we talked about this
29:58
Speaker 4: in the book, some of the things that kind of
30:01
Speaker 4: came to light for us when we were going through
30:03
Speaker 4: the history of this was the philosophy behind this. Like,
30:07
Speaker 4: why were these AI engineers and why were these people
30:11
Speaker 4: so interested in exploring this? And one of the things
30:16
Speaker 4: that was new to me was kind of the belief
30:19
Speaker 4: or the philosophy behind this. Like, what were these engineers
30:22
Speaker 4: coming up with and what drove them? Why did they want...
30:26
Speaker 4: to put so much into powering AI. And one of
30:30
Speaker 4: the things I'm looking at right now, it says their
30:32
Speaker 4: work baked in three key assumptions in code. One was
30:36
Speaker 4: that consciousness is optional. The second was that ethics can
30:41
Speaker 4: be conceptualized from function and behavior is the only valid
30:46
Speaker 4: measure of intelligence. And so just like you said, with
30:52
Speaker 4: the artificial general intelligence, if we're looking at machines, robots
30:57
Speaker 4: that potentially in as little as a few years could
31:03
Speaker 4: work across domains, like you said, so that the AI
31:07
Speaker 4: that could play chess can now do other things, can
31:11
Speaker 4: read an x-ray, can diagnose something, can prescribe medication or
31:15
Speaker 4: evaluate a tax return.
31:17
Speaker 3: It's pretty sobering.
31:18
Speaker 2: And let's go to that Toyota robot that we talked
31:21
Speaker 2: about in the first segment. It hit 2,020 free throws
31:25
Speaker 2: in a row, one after another. Guinness Book of World Records.
31:28
Speaker 2: That's all it can do. It can't dribble. It can't shoot.
31:31
Speaker 2: It can't jump. It can't guard. If it had artificial
31:34
Speaker 2: general intelligence, it could do all of those things. You
31:37
Speaker 2: could even put an entire NBA basketball team together of robots,
31:42
Speaker 2: and you would only have to pay them once the
31:43
Speaker 2: time that you bought them. It's amazing. There are other
31:47
Speaker 2: issues with all of this when it comes down to it.
31:50
Speaker 2: I mentioned the large economy by 2030, and it seems
31:54
Speaker 2: like a lot of it is going to 2030. But
31:56
Speaker 2: here's another example of what artificial intelligence is. And you
31:59
Speaker 2: can see this in what Donald Trump is doing. You
32:02
Speaker 2: mentioned Donald Trump in the administration earlier in this hour.
32:06
Speaker 2: But energy is so important. Listen to this. This is
32:10
Speaker 2: amazing to me. One of the amazing things in this book,
32:13
Speaker 2: I thought, was that the consumption of energy by 2030
32:18
Speaker 2: will be equivalent to Japan or India's annual consumption. It
32:23
Speaker 2: would equate to 5% of the world's energy use. So
32:29
Speaker 2: there's some real problems there. There are other problems with
32:32
Speaker 2: the biases that are created in the algorithms and in
32:36
Speaker 2: the code and the programs that have been done. In
32:39
Speaker 2: some ways, it amplifies if there are biases or I
32:44
Speaker 2: guess that's the best way to say it, isn't it, Kathleen?
32:46
Speaker 2: That it amplifies the biases that society has. And it
32:51
Speaker 2: puts it on steroids. And in some ways, it makes
32:54
Speaker 2: the divide between those that have and those that do
32:57
Speaker 2: not even greater. And it's something that we really should
33:01
Speaker 2: be concerned about when it comes to artificial intelligence.
33:04
Speaker 3: That's certainly true.
33:05
Speaker 4: And in fact, in the early part of the book,
33:08
Speaker 4: We talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly
33:10
Speaker 4: sides of AI, and of course, the potential for, and
33:13
Speaker 4: its vulnerability for detrimental use is significant, especially as its
33:19
Speaker 4: ability grows. And like you mentioned, the power consumption, there's
33:23
Speaker 4: also tremendous water need. And interestingly enough, in President Trump's AI.gov,
33:29
Speaker 4: he's got three pillars. And their plan and the second
33:33
Speaker 4: pillar is building, you know, first one is they're going
33:35
Speaker 4: to push hard to advance American ingenuity. Of course, that's
33:38
Speaker 4: a good thing, you know, bringing AI in and putting
33:42
Speaker 4: a lot of money into it. But the second is
33:44
Speaker 4: building American AI infrastructure. So we're talking about massive data
33:48
Speaker 4: centers and a huge draw on energy and water and
33:52
Speaker 4: other resources.
33:53
Speaker 2: I don't think people really have an understanding of this
33:56
Speaker 2: race that we're in the middle of. I think it
33:59
Speaker 2: was Leopold Aschenbrenner who was with OpenAI. They dismissed him
34:04
Speaker 2: from that job in 2024, but a very bright person.
34:07
Speaker 2: He graduated from Columbia University at the age of 19.
34:11
Speaker 2: He worked for the Oxford Institute for about 10 or
34:14
Speaker 2: 11 years. He went to OpenAI. They had a falling out.
34:17
Speaker 2: He left. But he's another one of those that says
34:20
Speaker 2: AGI may be coming 27 or 28, and he says
34:23
Speaker 2: it could be catastrophic to the world. That's what he says.
34:28
Speaker 2: So when you see Donald Trump investing money and infrastructure
34:33
Speaker 2: and the energy and all of these things around that,
34:35
Speaker 2: that's because you are watching this intelligence explosion as we're
34:40
Speaker 2: at the dawn of it right now. It's just starting,
34:44
Speaker 2: but there's a huge race between China and America. That's
34:48
Speaker 2: really what this comes down to with Donald Trump. Do
34:51
Speaker 2: you want America to be the leader? or not. And
34:54
Speaker 2: to me, as I'm watching Donald Trump in the administration,
34:58
Speaker 2: there are some things that they're doing to me that
34:59
Speaker 2: are a little bit reckless when it comes down to it.
35:02
Speaker 2: Because right now in America, there are no laws when
35:05
Speaker 2: it comes to this stuff. We write about it in
35:08
Speaker 2: the book. There are laws in China. The EU passed
35:11
Speaker 2: one in 2024. The interesting part about the EU's law,
35:15
Speaker 2: and we talk about this in the book briefly, in 2017,
35:18
Speaker 2: they considered it, and they actually considered it with human consciousness.
35:23
Speaker 2: But by the time they made a law in 2024,
35:27
Speaker 2: they no longer had human consciousness in it. They do
35:30
Speaker 2: have something that makes those that develop artificial intelligence explain
35:36
Speaker 2: how an artificial intelligence comes to a conclusion or the
35:40
Speaker 2: output of something, because there's something called black boxes, and
35:43
Speaker 2: that's in the bad part of artificial intelligence in the
35:46
Speaker 2: first part of the book. And these black boxes means
35:49
Speaker 2: that the person who created this artificial intelligence was They
35:52
Speaker 2: don't know how it happens. They don't know how this
35:56
Speaker 2: computer comes up with the answers. So things like that
35:59
Speaker 2: are sprinkled through the book. But as I mentioned and
36:01
Speaker 2: Kathleen mentioned also, we have three parts of this book.
36:05
Speaker 2: There is the first part of it, which tells you
36:07
Speaker 2: about AI, where we are. The middle part, which is
36:11
Speaker 2: sort of what we just did here in the second segment,
36:13
Speaker 2: is tell you where the experts say we are going,
36:16
Speaker 2: which is to artificial intelligence, general intelligence. It's going to
36:20
Speaker 2: incredible energy use. incredible economy, $ 15. 7 trillion to $ 22. 3 trillion
36:27
Speaker 2: by 2030. That's a massive amount of money. When it
36:31
Speaker 2: comes down to it, they will reach the objectives with
36:35
Speaker 2: that type of money behind it. I promise you, it
36:37
Speaker 2: will happen. The third part of our book is the solution.
36:41
Speaker 2: What can we do about it? I can tell you
36:45
Speaker 2: that Kathleen and I both are believers in Jesus Christ,
36:50
Speaker 2: We believe that our rights are given to us by God,
36:54
Speaker 2: and they are preserved by the Constitution of the United
36:57
Speaker 2: States of America. We have a solution for all of this.
37:02
Speaker 2: It's easy. It's clean. It's simple. It brings clarity to
37:05
Speaker 2: the things that we've talked about, and that is the
37:08
Speaker 2: 28th Amendment. We'll talk about that in just a minute.
37:12
Speaker 5: I don't know about you, but the one thing the
37:13
Speaker 5: last five or so years has taught me is that
37:15
Speaker 5: there's a lot, and I mean a lot, of companies
37:18
Speaker 5: and services out there that don't share the foundational values
37:21
Speaker 5: of this country and we the people. And I've spoken
37:23
Speaker 5: to a lot of you about it who share the
37:25
Speaker 5: same concerns, and you wonder where to shop. where to
37:28
Speaker 5: spend your hard-earned money without feeling gross about it. It
37:30
Speaker 5: can be frustrating, but here's the good news. You don't
37:33
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37:35
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37:38
Speaker 5: done the legwork for you. At mammothnation.com, we have thousands
37:41
Speaker 5: of vetted, freedom-loving, pro-America companies who actually share your values.
37:46
Speaker 2: So now the ball's in your court.
37:47
Speaker 5: Keep spending money with companies that frustrate you and then
37:50
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37:52
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37:56
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37:58
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38:00
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38:07
Speaker 2: And we're back here. We are having an artificial intelligence conversation,
38:11
Speaker 2: artificial general intelligence, and now the solution. I'm Booker Scott
38:15
Speaker 2: with Kathleen Goble. Kathleen helped write this book, not only
38:19
Speaker 2: helped it, I have to say I'm so grateful for
38:22
Speaker 2: that I came across you and it was, I would say,
38:25
Speaker 2: almost divine in some ways. Maybe it was completely divine
38:29
Speaker 2: because I had been working on this project. I think
38:31
Speaker 2: the first outline I wrote for this book was January
38:35
Speaker 2: 11th of this year. And I would write some here
38:37
Speaker 2: and write some there. And I had pieces and I
38:40
Speaker 2: reached out to Kathleen and I said, would you be
38:42
Speaker 2: interested in doing this? And what was your response? Do
38:45
Speaker 2: you remember?
38:46
Speaker 3: I do. I went and looked it up.
38:49
Speaker 4: First thing I did was I went to look for
38:51
Speaker 4: the 28th Amendment, which was interesting, got a little education there.
38:55
Speaker 4: But I'm grateful that you did because you mentioned that
38:59
Speaker 4: we're both believers, and that is absolutely true. And I
39:02
Speaker 4: believe in that. We've never met. We live on opposite
39:05
Speaker 4: sides of the country. But it very much felt like
39:08
Speaker 4: this was a calling, that this is what we're here for.
39:11
Speaker 4: I think we both rolled up our sleeves and dug
39:14
Speaker 4: in deep because This is, you know, it's a AI
39:19
Speaker 4: I'm referring to as a force to be reckoned with,
39:22
Speaker 4: and it's happening whether we like it or not. And
39:24
Speaker 4: I think one of the first things I mentioned to
39:26
Speaker 4: you before we even did an outline or started writing
39:29
Speaker 4: or doing any research. which by the way, there are
39:31
Speaker 4: nearly 350 footnotes in this book. But that doesn't mean
39:36
Speaker 4: it's difficult to read. In fact, quite the opposite. We
39:38
Speaker 4: laid it out intentionally with formatting and all that sort
39:41
Speaker 4: of thing. And if a person were to pick it
39:44
Speaker 4: up on Kindle, it would be easy for them to
39:46
Speaker 4: skip around between chapters. But I think a person could
39:48
Speaker 4: consume this book and the information pretty quickly, and they
39:51
Speaker 4: can also focus in on the areas that interest them,
39:54
Speaker 4: whether that be parenting or healthcare or some other aspect
39:58
Speaker 4: of it. You mentioned the law as well. And of course,
40:01
Speaker 4: that's a whole other big topic that we haven't even
40:04
Speaker 4: broached yet. But one thing I just wanted to make
40:08
Speaker 4: sure that we include here is that one of the
40:11
Speaker 4: things that we discovered was that public trust in the
40:14
Speaker 4: development of AGI is incredibly low. And people are concerned.
40:18
Speaker 4: You know, there's a variety of opinions. And a 2024
40:23
Speaker 4: Gallup poll found only 23% of Americans trust businesses to
40:27
Speaker 4: use AI ethically.
40:31
Speaker 2: And that's sort of the reason why we are doing this,
40:34
Speaker 2: so that we educate you like we were just educated
40:38
Speaker 2: ourselves on what all of this means. Because coming through this,
40:42
Speaker 2: I realized that It's not the artificial intelligence necessarily that
40:45
Speaker 2: we need to worry about. It's the artificial general intelligence.
40:49
Speaker 2: And let me give you this example why I think
40:52
Speaker 2: that a 28th Amendment sort of makes sense. I can
40:54
Speaker 2: explain it this way. Let's assume for a minute that
40:57
Speaker 2: artificial general intelligence hooks up to crypto and decides to
41:02
Speaker 2: purchase a house. That house happens to be your next
41:05
Speaker 2: door neighbors. And obviously, artificial general intelligence isn't moving in,
41:10
Speaker 2: but let's say a squatter does. What are you going
41:12
Speaker 2: to do to get that squatter out? Who are you
41:14
Speaker 2: going to sue? And then what is the judge going
41:17
Speaker 2: to say? There is no framework whatsoever for judges to
41:21
Speaker 2: make any decisions. And there are court cases already around
41:26
Speaker 2: the world having to do with artificial intelligence and artificial
41:29
Speaker 2: general intelligence. And I think that's a great way to
41:32
Speaker 2: explain that. Don't you, Kathleen?
41:35
Speaker 4: I do. Yes. And in fact, I think one of
41:37
Speaker 4: the things I mentioned to you early on when we
41:39
Speaker 4: first discussed this project was that more often than not,
41:43
Speaker 4: in just a casual conversation with folks that I'm around
41:47
Speaker 4: on a regular basis, if I were to mention AI,
41:51
Speaker 4: oftentimes people will say, oh, well, I don't trust it
41:53
Speaker 4: and I don't use it. And when I say to them,
41:56
Speaker 4: you already are. It's already part of your life. They
41:58
Speaker 4: look at me with just a blank stare, not realizing that.
42:01
Speaker 4: you mentioned in the beginning of the show, you know,
42:03
Speaker 4: it is factoring into everything already, you know, from loan
42:07
Speaker 4: decisions to medical care, who receives medical care, insurance premiums,
42:12
Speaker 4: it's everywhere.
42:13
Speaker 2: Before you wake up in the morning and have your coffee,
42:17
Speaker 2: you have already used artificial intelligence. It's everywhere. It's on
42:22
Speaker 2: your phone. It's your television. It's your, even your coffee maker.
42:26
Speaker 2: A lot of them are using artificial intelligence. And again,
42:29
Speaker 2: The real simple definition of artificial intelligence is a computer
42:34
Speaker 2: or an entity that is artificial, not real, but has
42:38
Speaker 2: the capability of doing something as well as a human being.
42:41
Speaker 2: That's really as simple as artificial intelligence is. But it
42:45
Speaker 2: gets so much deeper there, as you can tell, listening
42:47
Speaker 2: to this over the last 45, 50 minutes or so.
42:51
Speaker 2: We're coming up to the end. So what is the
42:53
Speaker 2: solution for all of this? What are the safeguards that
42:56
Speaker 2: we put in place? What can we do as the
42:59
Speaker 2: American people? Because what we want the American people to
43:03
Speaker 2: do is realize we need to protect ourselves and our
43:07
Speaker 2: children and our grandchildren in the future because None of
43:10
Speaker 2: the experts can agree on what's going to happen. We
43:13
Speaker 2: can't tell you what's going to happen after doing this
43:15
Speaker 2: research because no one can agree on it. But let's
43:19
Speaker 2: assume that consciousness does develop in robots. And when I
43:23
Speaker 2: say consciousness, I just mean that I don't think that
43:26
Speaker 2: they're real, okay? I'm not that crazy. And neither was
43:29
Speaker 2: Martine Rothblatt, by the way. They're just saying that if
43:32
Speaker 2: we cannot define what human consciousness is in a human,
43:36
Speaker 2: and now we as humans are trying to recreate it,
43:39
Speaker 2: in a being, and then they actually do feel all
43:43
Speaker 2: the things that we do. What is the difference? That
43:47
Speaker 2: is what they argue. What is the difference between that
43:51
Speaker 2: autonomous being and us? And I would say, you know,
43:56
Speaker 2: obviously we have a soul. And many people will say,
43:59
Speaker 2: just turn it off. But there are many people on
44:02
Speaker 2: the other side of the argument saying you cannot kill that.
44:05
Speaker 2: And Kathleen mentioned earlier about animals. drawing the comparison to
44:11
Speaker 2: animals' rights, which there are laws now for animals that
44:15
Speaker 2: we didn't used to have. That's what's coming here with this.
44:19
Speaker 2: That's why the solution, being a 28th Amendment, that would
44:25
Speaker 2: at least give groundwork for Congress and lawmakers to make
44:30
Speaker 2: laws around the 28th Amendment. That's kind of what it
44:33
Speaker 2: comes down to, isn't it, Kathleen?
44:35
Speaker 3: It is. It really is. And, you know, the.
44:38
Speaker 4: the question that you posed was, you know, we haven't
44:42
Speaker 4: defined consciousness really very well as human beings. And here
44:45
Speaker 4: we are, you know, speeding ahead very quickly on this
44:50
Speaker 4: AI development. And how are we going to differentiate who
44:54
Speaker 4: and who? Who's going to distinguish between man and machine
44:58
Speaker 4: when a machine or machines can do many of the
45:02
Speaker 4: things that we can do and perhaps even better, more efficiently,
45:07
Speaker 4: less expensive. I mean, we're talking about implications of everything from,
45:12
Speaker 4: you know, job loss, and they're talking both white and
45:15
Speaker 4: blue collar job loss, but also the rights, like we
45:19
Speaker 4: talk about a little bit in the book, you know,
45:21
Speaker 4: how law, our traditional legal systems and our constitution's not
45:24
Speaker 4: set up for machines and robots.
45:26
Speaker 2: Right. And the judges won't know how to act. And
45:29
Speaker 2: we're going to leave it to liberal judges to make
45:31
Speaker 2: that decision. That's not something I'm comfortable with unless there
45:35
Speaker 2: is a backdrop. And that would be the 28th Amendment.
45:37
Speaker 2: We didn't really talk about the unemployment, and we probably
45:41
Speaker 2: should have brushed up on that in the first segment
45:43
Speaker 2: or the second segment because we talk about it in
45:45
Speaker 2: the book. 10% to 20% unemployment is what people say
45:49
Speaker 2: could happen, and we kind of say, let's assume for
45:52
Speaker 2: a minute you're in a town of 10,000 people. That's
45:55
Speaker 2: 20% unemployment suddenly, all at about the same time. And
46:00
Speaker 2: that is with artificial intelligence, not artificial general intelligence. So
46:04
Speaker 2: that's a concern right now. So the 28th Amendment really
46:09
Speaker 2: comes down to this. We define a human being with
46:14
Speaker 2: unique DNA. That's the first step of it. You are
46:18
Speaker 2: a human being if you have unique DNA, as science says,
46:22
Speaker 2: and says this is DNA. This is a human being.
46:25
Speaker 2: I think in the book we say homo sapien is
46:28
Speaker 2: what it is. And the second part of that is,
46:31
Speaker 2: The second part of the 28th Amendment would be that
46:34
Speaker 2: the Constitution is for all of those that come in
46:39
Speaker 2: under number one, which is a homo sapien. And then
46:42
Speaker 2: the third part of it, it's really, really clean. It's
46:44
Speaker 2: a clean amendment. The third part of it would be
46:51
Speaker 2: that Congress has the right to write laws and legislation
46:55
Speaker 2: around the 28th Amendment. And that's really what it is,
46:58
Speaker 2: isn't it?
47:00
Speaker 4: It is a biological being, because as you mentioned, as
47:04
Speaker 4: these robots and machines progress, they're looking more and more
47:08
Speaker 4: like humans. And many people are using them interchangeably for
47:15
Speaker 4: companionship or what have you. And even to the point of,
47:19
Speaker 4: like you and I've discussed at different times writing this book,
47:22
Speaker 4: people say, oh, well, it's just a machine.
47:24
Speaker 3: Turn it off. Or it's just a robot. Turn it off.
47:26
Speaker 4: That's not the case. And we've even heard stories recently
47:29
Speaker 4: where you know, of AI actually writing its own code
47:33
Speaker 4: to protect itself so that it can't be disabled or
47:36
Speaker 4: turned off. And in one case, that was pretty visible.
47:41
Speaker 4: And again, a recent case, this AI actually threatened the
47:45
Speaker 4: engineer saying, you know, I'm aware of, of course, it
47:47
Speaker 4: can see everything on the computer. I'm aware of an
47:49
Speaker 4: extramarital affair. And should you do anything to damage this
47:53
Speaker 4: code or what we're doing here together, you know, I'm
47:56
Speaker 4: going to reveal this. Yeah.
47:57
Speaker 2: Those are the dangers of this artificial intelligence. You mentioned
48:01
Speaker 2: something there that we haven't talked about, but I think
48:03
Speaker 2: it's worth doing. If we get to artificial general intelligence,
48:08
Speaker 2: and again, they say 2027, 28, 2030, somewhere in that
48:12
Speaker 2: time frame. And again, no one really agrees on any
48:15
Speaker 2: of this stuff. Nobody knows. Yan Lacoon, again, I'll bring
48:19
Speaker 2: him up, the Facebook chief engineer. He says it's further out.
48:23
Speaker 2: He thinks there's a lot of progress that needs to
48:26
Speaker 2: be made around architectures and neural networks to allow that
48:30
Speaker 2: to happen. But we see it really growing faster and
48:33
Speaker 2: faster every day. And because of that, we need to
48:35
Speaker 2: protect ourselves. First of all, let's protect us. Let's protect
48:41
Speaker 2: our children. Let's protect our grandchildren. That's what this is about.
48:45
Speaker 2: Because we don't know the world that they're going to
48:47
Speaker 2: get when we're ready to leave this place. We should
48:51
Speaker 2: leave it better than we found it, as always. But
48:55
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that we're set up to do that
48:57
Speaker 2: right now. There's an incredible race right now to win
49:00
Speaker 2: this thing at all costs. And this thing means the
49:04
Speaker 2: race of artificial intelligence. And we've got to do something.
49:08
Speaker 2: We have to do something. And the 28th Amendment would
49:12
Speaker 2: be one of those things. You mentioned the 28th Amendment
49:14
Speaker 2: earlier when we first started talking. This is a confusing thing.
49:18
Speaker 2: There is no 28th. 28th Amendment. There are 27. The
49:23
Speaker 2: 28th was the Equal Rights Amendment. It was passed in
49:26
Speaker 2: the House of Representatives in 1972, in the Senate in 73,
49:31
Speaker 2: and then it went to be ratified. It takes 38
49:34
Speaker 2: states to go through the process to ratify an amendment.
49:38
Speaker 3: Well.
49:39
Speaker 2: That didn't happen by 1979, which is the limit that
49:42
Speaker 2: both the House and Senate put on that bill. It
49:45
Speaker 2: was then that they made it out to 1982, and
49:48
Speaker 2: then they no longer renewed it. A result of that
49:52
Speaker 2: meant that it was over. Except for Virginia passed, they
49:55
Speaker 2: ratified it in 2020. So it took almost 50 years
50:00
Speaker 2: to get that amendment ratified by 38 states. And then
50:03
Speaker 2: on the way out of office, Joe Biden, he says
50:06
Speaker 2: that the 28th Amendment is the law of the land.
50:09
Speaker 2: But guess what? Just like most things with Joe Biden,
50:12
Speaker 2: he didn't have the authority to do that either. And
50:15
Speaker 2: we write about that at the very beginning of the book,
50:17
Speaker 2: just to clear that up, that there is no 28th Amendment.
50:21
Speaker 2: Because what happens and what happened with me and you
50:24
Speaker 2: as we went through this process of writing, we would
50:26
Speaker 2: tell people about the 28th Amendment, they would Google it
50:29
Speaker 2: and look it on their phone. Well, it's the ERA,
50:31
Speaker 2: it's Equal Rights Amendment. So it's very confusing. If you
50:33
Speaker 2: read down a paragraph or two, you will find that
50:36
Speaker 2: Even those articles that say it's the ERA will say
50:39
Speaker 2: that it was never ratified and it is not the law.
50:43
Speaker 2: It is actually up to the National Archives to preserve
50:48
Speaker 2: our amendments and our Constitution. They are the ones that
50:51
Speaker 2: will say this is an amendment. That would be our
50:54
Speaker 2: hope with this, that this becomes the 28th Amendment, very
50:58
Speaker 2: simply defining a human being, preserving the rights for humans only,
51:04
Speaker 2: and allowing Congress to write laws. And Kathleen, one thing
51:08
Speaker 2: that we didn't talk about, in the book we do
51:10
Speaker 2: talk about it, and that is We both advocate in
51:13
Speaker 2: this book for strong laws and safeguards and guardrails when
51:19
Speaker 2: it comes to artificial intelligence. And America just doesn't have
51:22
Speaker 2: any right now, do they?
51:24
Speaker 3: No, they don't.
51:25
Speaker 4: And in fact, you know, something that I became aware of,
51:28
Speaker 4: I think, early on in the writing and the research
51:30
Speaker 4: of this, and I know you and I talked about it,
51:32
Speaker 4: but the parallels that we saw just in recent history
51:36
Speaker 4: for us, you know, you don't have to be, you
51:38
Speaker 4: don't have to have been around for a long time
51:40
Speaker 4: to remember the last four or five years and what
51:43
Speaker 4: we went through. And I saw so many, so many
51:46
Speaker 4: parallels with, you know, with the COVID shutdown, people were
51:49
Speaker 4: told they were non-essential. We, you know, there was mandates
51:53
Speaker 4: to test, to do this, to do that. And we
51:56
Speaker 4: are on the verge again. I mean, we are, we're
51:59
Speaker 4: We're literally looking at something, whether it be autocracy or technocracy,
52:04
Speaker 4: where we could give up such incredible control that we
52:10
Speaker 4: have very few, if any, more rights as human beings.
52:13
Speaker 4: And it could be something that could be done very
52:18
Speaker 4: easily as this AI progresses to AGI. Yeah.
52:22
Speaker 2: And let's talk real quick about the expert that says this.
52:28
Speaker 2: They believe that eventually these beings, these autonomous beings, will
52:34
Speaker 2: actually enslave human beings. There is a thought process out
52:39
Speaker 2: there that says that will happen. That is why a
52:44
Speaker 2: 28th Amendment now, at least getting started on it, because
52:48
Speaker 2: the average amendment to pass is about five years. The
52:52
Speaker 2: shortest one ever was 100 days. The longest was 202 years.
52:58
Speaker 2: If we go by the guidelines that we put out
53:00
Speaker 2: for you here in this hour, and we do it
53:02
Speaker 2: in the book as well, which is 2030 is when
53:05
Speaker 2: this probably will happen, maybe faster, we may be too
53:11
Speaker 2: late right now to preserve our rights in the Constitution.
53:15
Speaker 2: It may be too late. If it takes six, seven, eight,
53:19
Speaker 2: nine years, or like the ERA took nearly 50 to
53:22
Speaker 2: finally get it ratified, it's not easy to pass an
53:26
Speaker 2: amendment today. It's not supposed to be until there's a crisis.
53:30
Speaker 2: And when there's a crisis, it's probably too late in
53:34
Speaker 2: the case of artificial general intelligence, autonomous beings, and this.
53:41
Speaker 2: And I don't know. I've enjoyed the process, Kathleen, with you.
53:45
Speaker 2: I enjoyed getting to know you some. We spent hours
53:48
Speaker 2: on the phone together writing this. We would write a
53:52
Speaker 2: chapter or two, or I guess I would write a
53:54
Speaker 2: chapter or two. You would get it. We would record
53:56
Speaker 2: the phone conversation about it, and then you would fix it.
54:00
Speaker 2: You fixed my chapters.
54:04
Speaker 3: Not with my spelling.
54:05
Speaker 2: Well, you did a great job. And it was so
54:09
Speaker 2: nice to meet you and work on this project. We're
54:11
Speaker 2: talking about doing some more things in the future. We'll
54:14
Speaker 2: see how this goes. We would love for you to
54:16
Speaker 2: buy it. We really, the objective of this ultimately would
54:20
Speaker 2: be the 28th Amendment. But really, Kathleen mentioned this earlier.
54:24
Speaker 2: We want you to be equipped with enough information to
54:28
Speaker 2: have conversations without being intimidated by artificial intelligence, artificial general intelligence,
54:34
Speaker 2: and we wrote this book for you. From that perspective,
54:37
Speaker 2: it's simple to understand, easy to read, and you can
54:41
Speaker 2: get through it pretty quickly. You can find it at americaoutloud.news
54:44
Speaker 2: inside the bookstore. It's available at Amazon and also at
54:48
Speaker 2: Barnes & Noble. The name of it is Artificial Intelligence,
54:51
Speaker 2: The Fight for the Future of Humanity, Making the Case
54:55
Speaker 2: for a 28th Amendment. And her name is Kathleen Goebel.
54:59
Speaker 2: She is a co-author on this book. She has been
55:02
Speaker 2: my partner on this trip of artificial intelligence and bringing
55:06
Speaker 2: this information to you tonight and also in this book. Kathleen,
55:10
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming into my life and
55:13
Speaker 2: helping me on this project. I could not have done
55:16
Speaker 2: it without you.
55:18
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Booker.
55:20
Speaker 4: I mean, like you said, this has been a seed
55:22
Speaker 4: that was planted in your life many years ago, 2014.
55:26
Speaker 4: It's not something that you ever let go of. I
55:29
Speaker 4: think that was intentional by divine design. And like you said,
55:33
Speaker 4: you know, the time to act is now. And my
55:35
Speaker 4: hope is that we've learned something, that I've learned something,
55:39
Speaker 4: you know, from the last four or five years that
55:41
Speaker 4: we've been through. You know, I think in many ways
55:43
Speaker 4: it could have been a a wake-up call, a dress rehearsal. Thankfully,
55:46
Speaker 4: we've seen a great awakening in the nation. But you
55:50
Speaker 4: also mentioned the global impact and allowing countries like China
55:54
Speaker 4: and the EU to dictate or to define how AI
56:00
Speaker 4: is going to be assimilated into society is terrifying. They
56:03
Speaker 4: do not have the constitution that we do. They do
56:06
Speaker 4: not have human rights, civil rights in mind. And this
56:10
Speaker 4: is something that needs to be raised as a groundswell
56:14
Speaker 4: of support and conversation. And everybody needs to get involved
56:18
Speaker 4: because it impacts.
56:19
Speaker 3: All of us.
56:20
Speaker 2: And that's why it's so important for you to understand
56:23
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence so that you can have the conversations that
56:26
Speaker 2: it's going to take to get this thing to a
56:29
Speaker 2: 28th Amendment. And I know some of this probably sounds
56:32
Speaker 2: crazy to you. Maybe not. But I encourage you to
56:35
Speaker 2: get the book, read it, find out for yourself, and
56:39
Speaker 2: then get into the fight. The fight for the future
56:42
Speaker 2: of humanity. I'm Booker Scott, and you were told 2,000
56:46
Speaker 2: years ago that you are the salt of the earth.
56:49
Speaker 2: And salt without flavor, it just has no value. So
56:52
Speaker 2: whatever you do, keep being salty. Unleash the Political News
56:55
Speaker 2: Hour starts next. Have a great night.
56:58
Speaker 1: There is only one truth. You've been listening to The
57:01
Speaker 1: Truth Be Told with Booker Scott on America Out Loud.