Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #44: Interview with Kathy Saliba, Manager, Passenger Care, Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA) | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #44: Interview with Kathy Saliba, Manager, Passenger Care, Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA) | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:12
Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
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invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
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Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
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insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills, and expertise in access technology and information.
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As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
1:15
I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
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through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
1:31
author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments.
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In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian
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government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
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not just the sighted ones.
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In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to turn equity equal access into federal law and most recently,
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on June 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee
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Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles.
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One goal to turn accessibility from afterthought into daily practice or everyday
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practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets
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lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest.
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A change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to
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build. Kathy Saliba, I'd like to welcome you to our podcast for today.
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Kathy Saliba: Thank you very much, Donna.
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Really excited to be here.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm excited to have you and, you know, hear more about the work that you
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have been doing. So, Kathy, when you and I first connected in 2021 about
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my trip to the Caribbean.
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What gaps did that conversation highlight for you,
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and how did it influence the way that passengers care now serves blind
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travelers?
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Kathy Saliba: Thanks, Donna. That was it feels like just yesterday that we met.
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Actually, I've been in this role for a couple of years now,
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and I do recall some of our earlier conversations and they were pivotal because
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the way we approach accessibility is that we we need to hear and learn from people who are
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experiencing the airport journey.
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So although sometimes not a perfect journey, it is.
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We need to hear about it so that we can make those improvements.
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So it really was impactful and enlighten us.
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You know, I think it highlighted and I'm trying to remember all not all the details,
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but I think they were twofold. I mean, there were definitely a few gaps that we are
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already starting to work on through our work with the Rick Hansen Foundation around the
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physical barriers at the airport.
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And I'll touch on that in a in a second.
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But it was it was also around the people aspect and,
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and and the technology aspect.
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So when, when even when assistance was booked for a passenger with a disability,
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there was that gap with information flow.
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It wasn't always consistent.
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So it flagged to us two things.
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You know, staff training is pivotal.
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And it really is important to focus on frontline staff anticipating needs instead of
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just, you know, reacting to requests.
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And also the need for independent tools and, and,
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you know, not just staff support for travelers who are blind.
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The way I see accessibility and the way I approach it and our ambition in our small but
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mighty team is the fact that we want to make sure that passengers experience the airport
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with independence, dignity and delight.
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And I think the independence and dignity.
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There were some gaps when we first talked about it.
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So it was it was a very helpful conversation.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who have never, ever flown through Pearson,
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can you walk us through the full curbside to cabin assistance journey and explain how
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your team choreographs each and off behind the scenes?
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Kathy Saliba: Sure. Toronto Pearson is, you know, the biggest airport in Canada.
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So we do things a little bit differently.
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And definitely it is complex.
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So what happens at Pearson in particular is that the airlines themselves are responsible
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for assisting passengers with reduced mobility throughout the whole journey.
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So you know, they can provide a wheelchair and mobility assistance,
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but not only that, you know, it also it includes passengers who may be
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deaf, who are blind, who have cognitive impairment,
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what have you. So how it works when you're departing at Pearson is,
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you know, you get to the airport and whether that's being dropped off at curbside or,
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you know, parking in the garage or maybe, you know,
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taking the the Up express or the TTC or what have you the they the airlines have mobility
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service providers, and those folks will meet you there wherever you're getting dropped off
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or, you know, starting your journey.
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And they will take you to whichever waypoint you need.
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So with Air Canada it's a little bit different.
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And not to get into the weeds, they would take you to a special aisle,
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but if it's any other airline, they would take you to one of our accessible
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self-serve check in kiosks or maybe to one of the counters help you with the baggage drop
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off and to the security.
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And then once you pass security it depends.
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Every airline does it a little bit differently. Some have areas where they pass
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you on to someone else, depending how they have it structured.
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But there are some handovers from one agent to another.
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And and then they take you to the gate essentially.
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And then of course boarding the plane. So that's,
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that's very like high level departures and arrivals is pretty much the same in the sense
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that the service provider will meet you or the or,
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or your caregiver or what have you.
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They'll meet you at the aircraft and they'll take you through customs.
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You know, help you with the baggage and all the way to the curb.
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Or maybe the parking garage.
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And again, yes, there are handovers, especially if there's a connecting flight
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that they're trying to that is with a different airline,
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for instance. But but that's essentially the,
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the journey.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just want to give a quick shout out to your agents Brent Bird and the gang.
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I am so, so, so, so pleased with each and every one of them.
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Whenever they meet me at the curb or they meet me upon arrival.
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Kudos.
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Kathy Saliba: Oh, thank you for the shout out. I know that you appreciate that.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes. Now, Pearson recently earned the Rick Hansen Foundation Foundation Golden
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certification in both terminals.
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Which specific design choices or refits proved decisive,
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and how do passengers directly benefit from them?
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On a typical travel day?
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Kathy Saliba: Oh, that. I love that question.
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So this was the reason I like it is because it was such a long project.
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It was a multi year. I think it took about five years altogether years of collaboration
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and a multi-million dollar investment to make these retrofits in terminals one and terminal
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three. You know, at the end of the day, what the Rick Hansen Gold certification is,
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it's their highest level that they award and it recognizes in general,
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not just airports, but any organization that goes really above and beyond creating those
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inclusive spaces. Right.
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And this predominantly, I would say it does focus on the built
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environment, like the physical environments, although I think now they've updated it and
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it encompasses other elements, but nonetheless there was a lot to fix
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because, you know, terminals get dated.
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So, you know, it's it's a weird one because I think there's a bunch of retrofits that were
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done that I wonder if passengers just walking through it don't even notice.
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As an example, there were hundreds of tactile attention indicators installed all over the
11:05
place, and maybe a regular, I don't know, like someone just running a
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business person running through the airport might not notice them.
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And others, I hope, do so that, you know, they don't slip and fall before,
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you know they walk on a staircase as an example.
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But I think that what I love about it is that it really impacted every passenger.
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Yes, it started off with passengers with disabilities,
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but every change was really for any passenger.
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And that's the beauty of accessibility. If you do it for one passenger, it really works
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for anyone. So now because of that work, all our self-serve check in kiosks are
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accessible. There's over 100 hearing loops at all our counters.
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For people who have the cochlear implants as an example more quiet spaces and what have
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you. So it just it really it some improvements you can really see and touch and
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then there's others that you can probably stroll through and not even notice because
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you just they've become part of the environment and,
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and it's, it's, it's something I can't imagine us not doing moving forward.
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Like we can't we couldn't live without it.
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So it was really impactful.
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But lots of sweat and tears went into that one because it was such a monstrous big
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undertaking. It's not easy to, you know, shut down parts of the airport to
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make changes on the curbside to you know, add paint in various parking garages and add
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glazing to windows and what have you.
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And it was all part of this project.
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It was, it was a big Herculean effort by by many.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. I mean it sounds overwhelming
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Kathy Saliba: It was, but it was, it was well worth it.
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Well worth it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you championed the hidden disabilities sunflower lanyard at Pearson.
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How does this small symbol change staff behavior.
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And what measurable impact have you seen for travelers with non-visible disabilities?
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Kathy Saliba: Yes. This has been a program that's been incredible.
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For listeners. Essentially what this program is,
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is it was started in the UK many years ago.
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To and it's basically a lanyard that you wear that's green with sunflowers on it.
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And what it does is it gives people staff, ideally a discreet visual cue that someone
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may need extra time, maybe clear communication or just some extra support
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because they have some kind of non-visible disability.
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It can be anything from, you know, autism to PTSD to some sort of
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learning disability or what have you.
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And I would say we've measured higher satisfaction scores with the sunflower
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lanyard than many other programs.
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And the anecdotal stories that we hear are so touching.
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And it really showcases that thanks to this program,
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people have had a smoother journey.
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It really the staff are so behind it and love this program,
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and it really shifted staff behavior from just,
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you know, routine interactions that they may have with passengers to definitely being a
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little a lot more empathetic.
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I and it's a big part of our education.
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We do lots of training.
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Some is more formal, but we also do a lot of activations just in and around the airport,
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where we meet airport employees and tell them about it.
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And you'd be surprised how many of these folks are not just,
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you know, passing by and grabbing, you know,
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the lanyard or we have these little pins that show their support and sometimes,
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you know, some nice giveaways. You'd think that people would just run on their way to
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work and grab the tchotchkes and keep going.
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People stay at our booth and want to learn about the program,
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or tell us personal stories of them knowing someone who has some sort of non-visible
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disability, or they themselves having a non visible disability.
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So it's one of those things that, you know, if we get in front of the airport
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employees, they can easily get behind it.
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I think our challenge is that we have at the airport itself,
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not the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, who manages Pearson,
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but Pearson itself has over 50,000 8000 employees.
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So the challenge is definitely just having that continuous education.
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There's people that come and go, staff turnover,
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new people coming in. So it's an ongoing program that we have to keep refreshing
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people about. But it's one that's very well received.
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And the great thing about it is that not only has it recently been adopted by Air Canada
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and WestJet, so that helps promote it even more that,
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you know, you can grab a lanyard when you're on the plane or what have you, but it's a
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program that's well recognized around the world so you can be,
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you know, taking off at Pearson and have your lanyard on and you can be landing in
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Heathrow. And the folks at Heathrow will also understand what it's about.
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And you walk out of Heathrow, you know, hop on the tube or go to a theater
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there. It's so common there that you can have that end to end passenger journey,
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which is what I think makes it really really special.
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So yeah, it's a great program and it really has,
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I think, changed staff behavior for the better.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good good good good. Now orientation is critical for blind and low vision passengers.
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How are the CNIB wayfinding beacons, tactile signage and
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mobile app performing in a practice?
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And what feedback loops keep them current?
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Kathy Saliba: I love I love these questions.
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It sounds really ask me these before.
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So so I think the feedback loop and hearing from passengers is key.
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So as an example, let's talk about the beacons first.
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Yeah, they weren't very popular to be honest,
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and we weren't really getting too much feedback around them. So we thought to
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ourselves, well, where how can we help passengers who are blind have that
17:27
independence. And we do have something called the IRA app,
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or now it's rebranded as it's called IRA explorer,
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right? We decided to focus more on that versus the beacons,
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the IRA explorer app, just really quickly for listeners.
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It's essentially, you know, you have your phone,
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you get to the airport anywhere at the airport doesn't have to be at the terminal.
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It could be at one of the parking garages.
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You open it up and you're connected automatically with a person or a live agent
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who uses your camera to look at your surroundings so they kind of can help guide
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you. And it's great in that you get more specific guidance.
18:06
And you can also, you know, go to a store and be a little more specific
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on shopping. Say you're at duty free and looking for,
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I don't know, a specific wine.
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They can direct you more more towards that than versus just,
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you know a beacon that drops you off at duty free and you're kind of left to your own
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devices trying to figure out, you know, what to shop for as an example.
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So it's definitely more independent and personalized.
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And we just had better feedback.
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So we decided let's focus on that.
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But that being said, now what can we do to improve you know,
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the mobile app experience and the tactile signage.
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And that's a work in progress.
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So the digital maps that we have are, are good.
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There's always room for improvement. And we've heard lots of great feedback from CNIB.
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So we're working with various consultants, third parties to improve that and and see how
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we can make them more user friendly.
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And that's a big one. Of course, the mobile app is fully accessible,
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and we're working on ways to make it more personalized so you can have more experiences
19:07
that are tailored to you.
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And that includes ensuring that you know, if you know your flight number,
19:13
if you know the gate, you can punch in a few things and be notified
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of gate changes or what have you while experiencing the airport,
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so you don't have to sit at the gate if you don't want to.
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You can go and shop, eat, do whatever you want to do and not be
19:30
constricted to a certain place.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, technology is really racing along and really giving us more opportunities,
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isn't it?
19:41
Kathy Saliba: Oh, certainly a lightning speed.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, too fast for me at times.
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I have to keep up with this.
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Kathy Saliba: As do we, as do we. We have to do the same thing.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Multiple contract terms touch a passenger's journey.
20:01
So you have the wheelchair attendants security airline agents.
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How do you train and monitor okay these different teams so that the experience
20:18
feels seamless rather than fragmented.
20:24
Kathy Saliba: Well and that goes back to as I mentioned there are lots of contractors and we work the
20:30
airlines are responsible for their passengers.
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But how do we work closely with them. So that we can really feedback that we can share our
20:38
ideas and make it all better.
20:39
So our airline relations team, of course, works really closely with all the
20:43
airlines and their third party mobility service providers in incorporating all of
20:49
that. And, you know, the they are responsible for their training,
20:54
of course. But we also work hand in hand because there's,
20:58
there's ways to share our learning.
21:00
There's trainings that we do that might benefit them and vice versa.
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So it's very collaborative.
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And, and definitely a work in progress.
21:09
But it, it's when it's done right, it's very impactful given the scale of how
21:14
big the airport is, it's profound when we get it right.
21:18
And going beyond just, you know, the wheelchair attendants.
21:21
We work really closely with Catsa, which are the security agents to collaborate.
21:27
So recently, you know, we, we helped ensure that the sunflower logo
21:31
was on their family assistance.
21:33
Lane. We've collaborated with them to understand how their facilitators are helping
21:39
passengers with well, all sorts of passengers,
21:42
but also passengers with disabilities to improve that experience and make the flow
21:49
seamless so there's less bottlenecks.
21:52
So it's really the interesting role that I have is that I get to touch on all these
21:58
multiple contractors and figure out how do we work on this together and make it better.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I'm really, really impressed with one of your managers.
22:09
Her name is Brenda Barone.
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Oh, she's lovely. She gets it, you know, like she's there even before I
22:17
returned to Canada last week, two weeks before.
22:21
She's asking me. What do you mean?
22:23
Are you returning? And I'm so pleased with with this type of attitude,
22:28
I really am.
22:30
Kathy Saliba: That's wonderful. Yeah. She's lovely.
22:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So security screening can be extremely stressful.
22:38
What adaptations or protocols have you put in place to make that checkpoint faster,
22:47
safer and more dignified for people using assistive devices or who cannot see
22:57
visual cues?
23:01
Kathy Saliba: You know, that would be a really good question to ask Kazza,
23:04
because they do the security screening we have collaborated collaborated with them.
23:09
And as an example, when we launched the IRA explorer app or even now,
23:14
the IRA ASL app. We make sure that they understand what it's about so that they can
23:19
incorporate it and not be surprised if they see a passenger using one of these tools.
23:24
Of course we've installed those sunflower logos so that they are included as part of
23:31
their family assistance lane to fast track folks,
23:35
not just make the journey more seamless.
23:37
Going through security.
23:38
At the end of the day, you're right, security is stressful.
23:41
So, you know, I think they can probably speak more to how they're making it safer and more
23:46
dignified. I can't speak to all of that, but a lot of the there is a lot of
23:52
collaboration. And even, you know, when we do big events like ready,
23:56
set, fly, which is a big familiarization tour for families with members who have autism,
24:02
that's a rehearsal. And we make sure that catsa CBSA,
24:06
all the government agencies are not only aware of it,
24:09
but participating in it, and they get a chance to also learn from
24:12
those experiences and ask those passengers, you know,
24:15
what do you need from us? What would have made that less stressful?
24:19
So there is a lot of opportunities where when we're working on something,
24:23
we make sure they're part of that program as well,
24:27
because those are the pain points or the, the areas that may cause some anxiety for
24:34
travelers. So it's really imperative that we work hand in hand.
24:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tsa has certainly improved a heck of a lot.
24:42
I really like the Catsa team.
24:44
Kathy Saliba: Very yeah, the facilitators that they've implemented,
24:46
and it's been maybe a year or so.
24:48
They're great. Yeah.
24:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very. Now departures get a lot of attention, but arrivals can be tougher.
25:00
How can you be tougher?
25:04
How do you ensure that assistance is ready at the gate?
25:11
Through immigration baggage claim and out to the curbside pickup.
25:19
Kathy Saliba: I think it goes back to again, I mean, the airlines are responsible for
25:24
those processes, and it goes back to the collaboration that we have with airlines to
25:29
make sure that they're aware of what's happening in the environment day of what's
25:34
coming up so that they can anticipate and predict and be a little more proactive of how
25:40
they can make that journey more seamless for their passengers.
25:45
There's a lot of collaboration.
25:47
And again, I think, you know, someone from the airlines team would be best
25:51
suited to get into the weeds of that.
25:53
But it is understanding what's happening in the environment as well,
25:58
so that they can be ready.
26:00
You know, if there's you know, weather delays or,
26:03
or or maybe some issues with the baggage area,
26:06
how can they anticipate that so that they can get those passengers to wherever they need to
26:11
be in a timely fashion.
26:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A lot of work.
26:16
Kathy Saliba: A it's a lot of work. It is, it's but it's, it's,
26:19
it's the most rewarding I would probably say.
26:22
And you know there's a lot of great roles at Pearson.
26:25
It's an amazing, amazing place to be at.
26:27
I, I'm very lucky. I feel like I have the most interesting,
26:31
rewarding role for sure.
26:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now emerging tools like indoor GPS, haptic wearables and 80 sorry
26:45
AI chat agents right, are appearing fast.
26:50
What criteria do you use to decide which technologies belong in an airport environment
27:00
and which are still too experimental?
27:05
Kathy Saliba: Well yeah. We just mentioned you know technology is moving at lightning speed right
27:09
now. Yes. And I mean, who hasn't used AI?
27:13
And, you know, it's funny. So when I started in this role two years ago,
27:17
coming from some of my clients back in the day were tech focused.
27:22
So when all these novel, novel new tech ideas were coming out from
27:28
various companies around the world and they were pitching me, I was so excited.
27:33
And then I started thinking, okay, that could be my day job.
27:36
Like, there's just so much to sift through.
27:39
So I really quickly learned how to avoid buying into the hype and really zooming out
27:46
and taking a step back to a understand, you know,
27:48
what is that tool a part of our broader Pearson strategy,
27:53
but also looking at some criteria, you know,
27:56
is there some proven reliability?
27:59
And if not, is this a pilot that of that we can test out in a controlled space before
28:05
scaling it, you know. Is it safe?
28:09
Safety is number one at Pearson.
28:11
Of course. And you'd be surprised.
28:13
There were a lot of accessibility tools and companies pitching me that didn't really take
28:18
into account the fulsome universal design.
28:21
You know, I look at their app and it wasn't fully accessible.
28:24
And, you know, so that was a little bit of a gap or a red flag.
28:28
And then just overall looking at the ease of adoption.
28:31
So let's just say we do a pilot and it does work.
28:35
Are we able to branch out and make this available to our passengers.
28:41
So I kind of really quickly and, you know, through a little bit of trial and
28:45
error, had to figure out what is that test for us and for me and for the team.
28:51
I think it really looks at does this genuinely reduce friction for the passenger?
28:56
Is it going to make their lives easier or is it just going to add another layer.
29:01
And maybe that layer is okay, but is that just really a band aid or is it
29:05
actually going to make the journey better?
29:10
And that's, you know, it's hard sometimes you have to test and some
29:12
things work, some things don't.
29:15
But but that's, that's kind of how it's, it's,
29:18
it's almost like a startup kind of mentality where you have to take some chances,
29:22
but you have to take some smart chances.
29:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I fully agree with that.
29:27
You know you just can't just, you know, somebody comes to you and say,
29:31
well, this is going to work. You have to test it to make sure it is going to work in your
29:34
environment. Right?
29:35
Kathy Saliba: Yeah. And there's a lot of testing. And it's not just testing in our environment.
29:39
And with our, our folks, it's even just, you know,
29:44
going out to the people with lived experiences and saying,
29:47
does this even make sense?
29:49
Like, is this even worth pursuing with this?
29:51
Do you even think it would be helpful?
29:54
And it's funny what you learn, right?
29:56
I can't foresee how a tool can help every single disability until I go and talk to
30:04
people with various disabilities to see if this is going to be something useful,
30:08
or actually create another barrier.
30:11
So it's tricky. It's exciting.
30:13
It's just it's it's you have to be a little more strategic because there's a lot out
30:17
there.
30:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Definitely. Now your career began in public relations now.
30:25
Sorry. How has that communications background shaped the way you listen to passengers
30:33
stories and translate them into operational change?
30:41
Kathy Saliba: You know what? I took a I took a little bit of a 180 several years ago when I said,
30:47
I'm going to try something a little bit different.
30:50
And I'm very fortunate that with my career in public relations,
30:54
there are tons of transferable skills.
30:57
And I remember when I was in school, they the the professors would say that.
31:00
And I was like, okay, whatever, but it's true.
31:03
There are really a lot and a prime example is,
31:06
you know, just the other day, I think last week, or maybe it was two weeks
31:09
ago now, I was presenting at the University Health Network's Height Institute.
31:15
They were doing first of its kind, accessible air travel forum,
31:19
and I was up there in front of a lot of, you know important people.
31:24
And, and I presented well I got some kudos and I was really proud of myself.
31:30
And that certainly is thanks to the fact that I know how to write speaking remarks.
31:36
I have trained others of how to present.
31:38
So I guess now I have to do it.
31:40
Although I have to tell you, I am terrified of presenting in public.
31:44
So, you know, oh my God, I hate it.
31:46
But I did it. I definitely made our team proud.
31:50
So the presentation skills is a big one.
31:53
Because, you know, at the end of the day, you have to be out there and you are trying
31:56
to also get buy in from from other stakeholders when you're trying to sell in a
32:00
new idea. As an example and going back to your question about the listening piece,
32:05
that's huge. I think that's the one thing I learned really quickly in public relations is
32:10
that they throw a lot of information at you, and you have to figure out how to distill it
32:16
and pick out those key messages and how to reframe it so that a different audience
32:22
understands it. So I have to do a lot of active listening,
32:26
and I have to be able to pick out and surface those stories that that are meaningful,
32:33
that go beyond the statistics, that that explain the why.
32:37
Like, why should someone care?
32:40
And I think those are really good skills and they have helped me build Cross-departmental
32:45
buy in. I think they they have definitely helped me showcase the passion I have for
32:53
accessibility. I think when people hear me speak,
32:56
they see that it's something that I'm genuinely passionate about and that comes
33:00
through. Thanks to some of those skills I've learned throughout the years,
33:04
so it definitely wasn't a waste of time.
33:06
Spending two decades in that field.
33:10
And of course, you know, the writing skills are always key.
33:12
You want to be able to to be succinct and impactful in any writing,
33:18
whether, you know, even if AI is helping you.
33:23
That that's that's great.
33:25
It's a it's another tool and that's what it is.
33:27
It's a tool. It's not it's not what will get you to those big strategic initiatives and
33:35
changes that you want to make.
33:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I must say that your voice really tells me about your passion.
33:43
Kathy Saliba: Well, thank you.
33:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very welcome.
33:45
Kathy Saliba: I do have a big smile on my face.
33:47
So.
33:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so Pearson handles tens of millions of passengers each year.
33:57
So from a business perspective, how does investing in accessibility and.
34:04
Inaccessibility translate into improved customer satisfaction,
34:12
airline loyalty or revenue growth?
34:19
Kathy Saliba: I love this question because I think it's really important,
34:22
and something that may get forgotten, I think,
34:25
is Stephanie Cardillo, who's the chief accessibility officer.
34:28
She was mentioning a stat and I'm horrible stats,
34:31
but she says something around, I think about a quarter of Canadians say that
34:37
they have a disability.
34:38
And that's the folks that actually, you know,
34:40
say it. There's probably people who don't, you know forego that kind of information.
34:45
So let's just say it's a quarter of a population that's a quarter of a population
34:49
is huge buying power that we sometimes forget about,
34:52
you know and at the end of the day Pearson's vision is to put the joy back into travel.
34:59
And I really do feel like happy passengers equals in any in any business.
35:05
Repeat customers. And, you know, people will say,
35:08
well, you don't have a choice. You kind of have to fly out of Pearson. Well, yes and no.
35:12
But it's you do have a choice of sometimes which airline you fly with.
35:16
And and a happy passenger creates loyalty with those airlines and in turn,
35:22
those, you know, we look at various airlines we want them to view Pearson as a partner of
35:28
choice. It is you know, Pearson sees I think last year we saw about
35:32
47 million people walking through our doors, give or take.
35:37
That's a lot of people.
35:38
And we we are a hub and it's because of those loyalties with various airlines.
35:44
So that's one thing. That's the airline aspect of it.
35:48
And at the end of the day, Accessibility.
35:50
Also, if done right, it reduces those bottlenecks,
35:54
it improves passenger flow, and then everyone can just experience the
36:00
airport on their own terms.
36:01
I mentioned, you know, sitting at a gate, some people love it.
36:04
You know, my mom definitely loves just waiting at the gate.
36:08
It's like she's willing the airport airline to like or the airplane to get there quicker.
36:14
Which is hilarious. Whereas I'm a passenger who loves,
36:17
you know, getting the lay of the land and then experiencing the airport,
36:21
I want to walk around.
36:22
I want to get a bite to eat.
36:24
I want to I want to shop, get a coffee.
36:27
But it's it's it's it doesn't matter.
36:29
It's I want to spend money.
36:32
And any passenger should have that ability.
36:37
And like I said, they want to spend time in the airport on their own terms,
36:41
and that equals potentially a lot of revenue because everyone is a consumer at the end of
36:48
the day. So I think it's accessibility is definitely this hot ticket item.
36:52
I think sometimes people often forget that it's it's a huge business too.
36:58
And that's not a bad thing. It's just that, you know,
37:01
it's a business and it allows us for revenue growth.
37:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah I agree. Now, disabled travelers are not a monolith.
37:13
How do you gather input from people with cognitive,
37:18
sensory and mobility disabilities and prevent solutions?
37:25
Present solutions for one greeting from creating barriers for another.
37:33
Kathy Saliba: So we work really closely with our insights team,
37:36
and they have many tools that I'm not going to jump into right now to gather feedback
37:41
from passengers, but on top of that, on a more formal basis.
37:47
We have our Accessibility Advisory Council, which has representatives across various
37:54
advocacy groups, and it's all folks with lived experience who we meet with on a
38:00
quarterly basis to hear their feedback especially when it comes to you mentioned
38:08
cognitive and sensory.
38:10
So we work as part of this group.
38:12
There are folks who are from Autism Ontario as an example from Alzheimer Society of
38:18
Ontario and what have you.
38:20
It's really all all sorts of different advocacy groups on that end when it comes to
38:25
presenting solutions. We do think through the journey map,
38:29
there's journey mapping workshops that sometimes are done depending on the project
38:33
at hand, or just really quickly thinking through every point of the journey and how
38:38
that's going to be impacted.
38:40
And we vet it with people with lived experience.
38:42
So, you know, at the end of the day, we have to do those cross checks with those
38:48
folks because we never want to create one solution that's going to have unintended
38:55
consequences for other groups.
38:56
And it's hard. It doesn't, you know, it's hard sometimes to find a
39:00
solution that will work for one group and sometimes not impact another group.
39:04
Like if there's, you know, in every disability,
39:06
there's a spectrum, you know, you can maybe have a broken leg and you're
39:10
going to, you know, heal in several months.
39:12
So yes, for a few months you might experience Pearson a little bit differently,
39:16
but you heal or you can be newly paralyzed and it's going to be a different a very
39:20
different experience every time you pass through Pearson.
39:23
So there's that spectrum in any sort of disability that we're working with,
39:27
and there's just the amount of disabilities out there.
39:31
Every passenger is unique.
39:33
So how do we get it right?
39:35
It's a lot of going out into the business to and and to passengers to vet those ideas.
39:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's that's really true.
39:46
Emergency preparedness is often overlooked.
39:51
What systems exist at Pearson's?
39:55
What? Sorry. What procedures exist at Pearson to assist disabled passengers during
40:03
evacuations, weather disruptions or mass cancellations?
40:11
And where are you still pushing for progress?
40:16
Kathy Saliba: That's a great question. And I think one of my colleagues who works in that field would
40:20
be best suited to answer it, for sure.
40:23
Just had a very high level.
40:24
I mean, safety is paramount and definitely in taken very seriously at Pearson.
40:30
And it's the number one thing.
40:31
So for when it comes to evacuations, we have Rick Hansen work and some other work
40:38
that we've done. We have the evacuation strobes in key locations.
40:43
We have various speakers throughout the airport that generate those audible alert
40:51
tones and public address systems.
40:55
We're working on a few tools that will also allow for mobile notifications with sign
40:59
language as an example.
41:01
And within ASL and Lsq, there's elevators that,
41:07
of course, have all the emergency call systems that are linked to a monitored
41:11
location. We have something called evac chairs.
41:15
So they're basically these emergency stair chair solutions that help get passengers with
41:21
disabilities or mobility restrictions from a building in case of an emergency you name it,
41:29
the list goes on and on.
41:30
It's a very complex system, but it's it's it's taken very seriously and
41:36
always the latest and greatest is being, you know,
41:39
tested for in terms of improving it.
41:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Staff turnover is inevitable in aviation.
41:51
How do you preserve institutional memory?
41:54
Memory so that new hires understand Harrison's accessibility commitments from day
42:03
one?
42:05
Kathy Saliba: So when I start, one of the reasons I started at the GTA is I was impressed by how many
42:11
people I met that would just casually say, I've been here for 25 years,
42:15
I've been here for 30 years. And I was like, my eyes would bulge.
42:18
And I was really impressed by that because in a lot of organizations,
42:22
you don't see that kind of longevity, and that's fabulous.
42:25
Now with that longevity comes the flip side.
42:28
You know, folks need to retire eventually.
42:30
And there's so much of that institutional knowledge that you definitely want to make
42:35
sure you capture. So there's a lot of, you know,
42:38
from from a microscopic level, there's a lot of project Closeouts so that
42:42
knowledge doesn't just walk out the door when folks leave.
42:46
On top of that, you know, yes, we have the mandatory accessibility
42:50
training that all new hires have to do.
42:54
And there's refresher training, of course, too,
42:57
because there is turnover and just even people changing roles and changing roles
43:02
within the airport environment.
43:04
You know, it's embedded in a lot of our standard operating procedures,
43:09
too. But what I think what the key is when it comes to staff turnover is just finding those
43:14
internal champions to keep the knowledge alive across departments.
43:19
We kind of know who the go to's are that are even more passionate than the regular person
43:25
about some of the programming, and using those to also be our our,
43:30
the people who can inspire others and get more people engaged in a lot of the programs
43:36
that we offer. As an example, we just launched our travel rehearsal
43:40
program, which is a more personalized tour that you can book.
43:44
And, you know, someone from our team will walk you through the whole process.
43:48
I'll meet you, you know, at check in and walk you all the way to the
43:52
gate and back so that when you do fly, you are very familiar with your route.
43:59
And to make that happen, you know, we're a very small team.
44:03
We need volunteers to help us.
44:04
How do we engage with those people?
44:07
Well, it's those internal champions that we've met throughout the years that are
44:11
always so supportive and, you know, are the first to raise their hands
44:14
to help us. So making sure that those people are seen rewarded,
44:18
acknowledged. Is, is one of the keys to having those preserving that institutional
44:26
memory.
44:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I think that's a wonderful program.
44:30
Had I known about this before, I definitely go and ask for it.
44:34
Kathy Saliba: Well, we just we just launched it this summer,
44:36
so. So you can you can certainly take part in it.
44:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I might think about that.
44:41
Yeah I see our clock is starting to tell me, you know,
44:45
time's running out, but I want to ask you this question.
44:50
Can you share a memorable, memorable instance when your team went beyond
44:58
the call of duty for a traveler and what lessons it offered about service culture?
45:09
Kathy Saliba: I there's so many examples where I feel like our team goes beyond the day to day.
45:16
And I think that goes back to there's so many people at Pearson that are truly passionate
45:21
and believe in what we're doing.
45:24
I'm trying to think of one.
45:25
So oftentimes it starts with a very simple email of a family member maybe reaching out
45:32
to us asking for the sunflower lanyard.
45:34
You can get the lanyard in many ways.
45:36
You can go to our info desks at the Lost and Found.
45:38
You can order it online, what have you. You can now go to WestJet and
45:41
Air Canada. But you know, sometimes people just will email us.
45:45
And then we dive deeper into what the situation is.
45:50
And it sometimes goes just way beyond a non-visible disability.
45:54
Sometimes it's a family member traveling with their kid who has a lot of disabilities and
46:01
medical needs. It's pretty complex.
46:04
It might be their their only flight that they might be taking.
46:08
How do we make that experience delightful, seamless?
46:12
That that's where we go above and beyond, I think.
46:16
And we work really closely with the amazing operations team that we have to end with our
46:22
government agencies. We we quickly gathered the troops,
46:28
so to speak, and figure out, you know, who can assist this family.
46:33
Does the airline already know?
46:35
You know, I highly recommend, you know, if you are traveling and you have
46:39
any sort of accessibility need or requirement,
46:41
please reach out to your airline a minimum of 48 hours in advance so that they're prepared,
46:46
of course. But, you know, that doesn't often that doesn't always
46:49
happen. And if it doesn't, you know, we reach out to the airline to make
46:53
sure they're aware. We reach out to the security folks so that they can be prepared
46:59
to one of our passenger service representatives so that they can help guide
47:02
them through the journey and assist them every step of the way so that that whole
47:07
process just is not just fast tracked, but just just more seamless and less
47:13
stressful for the whole family.
47:15
But it's those special instances, and there's been so many that I can't think
47:19
of, just one specific one where everyone just comes together and makes that experience for
47:24
that family so Much better.
47:27
And then and then we hear about it afterwards when they come back from wherever they were
47:31
traveling. And, and they're really appreciative of it.
47:34
And like I said, there's there's complicated,
47:37
complicated medical needs.
47:38
Sometimes people have you know, and, and and it really it I think it,
47:45
it makes them feel extra special.
47:47
And it really takes the burden off them having to figure out one additional major
47:52
logistical hurdle. So that's just one example.
47:56
I could probably talk your ear off about so many that have probably on a weekly basis.
48:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now let's go to the final question, because I'm not sure if we'll get through
48:07
everything here, but global hubs learn from each other,
48:12
right? Which airports or organizations inspire your work,
48:19
and how does Pearson share its own best practices Offices with the wider aviation
48:28
community.
48:30
Kathy Saliba: So I always say accessibility is definitely a team sport.
48:34
At the end of the day, let's just say you're flying out of Vancouver
48:37
and you have an amazing experience.
48:39
You land in Pearson, you have a crummy one. Well,
48:42
you're not going to think of that flight as a whole as a great one,
48:47
right? So it really is important that we share our learnings.
48:51
There's no hiding something.
48:53
Like, if we launch a sunflower program, the passenger only benefits if when they land
48:58
somewhere else in the world, they also have that program.
49:02
Otherwise, it's kind of useless, right? So that's a perfect example of
49:06
collaboration. It is a team sport.
49:08
It's we can learn from other airports and we do.
49:12
I sit on the Canadian Airports Council Accessibility Working Group,
49:17
which is a mouthful, but essentially what it is is Canadian airports we meet on a monthly
49:23
basis. And we don't just chit chat.
49:26
We we share learnings.
49:28
We solve problems, we innovate together.
49:30
We always pick a priority or two of projects we want to work towards and actually achieve
49:36
them. And it's an incredible, passionate group of people and it helps all
49:42
Canadian airports, big and small drive those changes.
49:46
And thanks to that, many airports now throughout Canada have as an example the
49:51
sunflower program because we collaborated and shared what we did right,
49:54
what we did wrong when we launched it.
49:57
The travel rehearsal program is something that has been done at Vancouver and at
50:03
Winnipeg, and I reached out to them to say, hey,
50:05
what worked, what didn't? What can we learn from your experiences so that when we launch
50:09
it, we don't make the same mistakes and we can do it a little more quickly and,
50:13
and, you know, get through some of those challenges.
50:15
So it's really collaborative.
50:17
And I think it's really pivotal that we look at other hubs now on a grander scale.
50:25
You know, there are some amazing airports out there that really do an incredible job with
50:31
accessibility. We were just shortlisted for the Accessibility Award as part of the
50:36
Airport Honours Awards at the International summit coming up in November,
50:41
and we're in a group of incredible airports.
50:43
And, you know, obviously I've looked at their,
50:47
you know, websites. I hope to visit some of those airports if I haven't yet,
50:52
because you can really learn and see what they do differently and what works and what
50:57
what we can potentially implement at Pearson.
51:00
So it's looking at the global scale.
51:02
And then the other thing I really encourage my team to do is actually look beyond
51:07
aviation. Zoom out and look at how the built environment is done in different places
51:12
because, you know, airports are complex, but there's many other places that approach
51:18
Accessibility a really unique way.
51:23
We have done tours of Holland Bloorview, which is a children's rehab hospital here in
51:29
Toronto. Erin Oaks kids even there's there's this program called Doors Open where you can,
51:36
you know, walk around facilities across Toronto and just look at architecture and you
51:40
get so much inspiration looking at how things are done a little bit differently.
51:44
And there's always a nugget there of maybe we could try doing this instead of this.
51:51
So it's really it's it's looking at environments that don't have anything to do
51:59
with airports actually, and seeing how they solve for those kinds of
52:02
problems.
52:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Kathy, any final thoughts from you?
52:08
Kathy Saliba: Oh.
52:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: To wrap.
52:09
Kathy Saliba: Up You know, Pearson, like I said, is on a journey to bring the joy
52:15
back into travel. We really mean that.
52:18
And when when it comes to accessibility, we want to make sure that passengers have
52:22
that independence, that dignity, that delight.
52:25
And we want to hear from you.
52:26
That is how we grow. That's how we learn.
52:29
We appreciate feedback.
52:31
So if you do want to learn more about our accessibility programs,
52:36
if you want to share your journey, if you have ideas,
52:41
reach out to us. Visit Toronto Pearson Accessibility.
52:46
You can find all sorts of information there and how to contact us.
52:49
And and I really do encourage you to reach out.
52:53
We I can attest to the fact that I read every compliment,
52:57
complaint and everything in between.
52:59
As does my team. And we really do take it to heart.
53:03
And we really want to make sure that Pearson is,
53:07
is the experience that you're hoping for.
53:10
So thank you so much, Donna, for even allowing us to have a voice
53:14
and to tell you more about all the cool things we're doing.
53:17
There's more to come in the new year as well,
53:19
so look out for some cool innovations.
53:23
And just and just thank you for for talking about this.
53:26
I think it's such an important topic.
53:28
And you're doing it justice.
53:30
So thank you for this podcast.
53:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, thank you for having come on to our podcast.
53:34
And, you know, if in the future you want to come on again,
53:37
you know, let me know.
53:38
Kathy Saliba: But thank you.
53:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Congratulations. You've done a terrific job.
53:43
Kathy Saliba: Thank you. I really appreciate it.
53:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Well, have a good rest of the evening.
53:48
Kathy Saliba: Thank you. Same to you, Donna.
53:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care.
53:51
Kathy Saliba: All the best. Take care.
53:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye. Bye.
53:58
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
54:04
Until next time.