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Children Evermore · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:59
  Today in therapy, we were talking about euphoric recall again. Because sometimes sobriety from people is harder than sobriety from substances. That's probably a condescending thing to say. I don't mean it that way. I've never actually struggled with sobriety from substances, so that's an unfair comparison.
• 1:30
  And I don't mean to be disrespectful, but when people replace substances, that's dopamine, and euphoric recall is still the problem. It came up because we were also talking about our massage again and processing that in therapy, the ritual and really being present with the ritual it was in reclaiming my body for myself, even as myself. I said that the last few years broke me in a way very similar to the pandemic breaking me when I lost my therapist, couldn't find another one, had to single parent all six kids without any of their support teams we had had since the beginning and without any support from other humans. I said, I don't know why I would have let myself get so isolated when I had already seen from the pandemic experience in quarantine while grieving my therapist. Therapist.
• 2:45
  I had already seen how painful isolation was and how much that seemed to mirror childhood, the degree of isolation. My therapist pointed out that maybe part of how I got so isolated was because I hadn't fully come out of isolation to begin with that because my baseline is so low, my understanding is not entirely accurate. And she gave the example and called me out for saying my co parent is kind just because he didn't hit me. She said whether he actually is kind or not is irrelevant to whether he hits me or not and that the two are not actually correlated, but that I'm still receiving a lack of harm as goodness without holding myself to seeing clearly where there is deprivation. And that is part of how I get myself isolated.
• 3:59
  And when that is also combined with my vulnerability being exploited through interpersonal violence, much like the church did with Shiny Happy, then it is also my isolation that ends up allowing harm to happen. What gets tricksy, she said, is that my brain reads it as protective. I don't mean in an avoidant attachment kind of way. I'm not weaponizing that against myself. I mean that when I was little and isolated and alone and only experienced harm from people coming to me, then I think the isolation keeps me safe and that because I was a child when I learned that, it gets internalized and generalized and applied to all the things.
• 5:04
  Even grief, she said. We talked about grief because I had a friend who passed away this week, and because my therapist is listening to the podcast and has gotten to the episode where my therapist died of COVID. And she said she noticed a pattern, because that's what she does, between losing my therapist and that therapist dying of COVID, where I was excluding myself from my own grief. I could not include myself amongst the grievers because I didn't think I had a right to be there. She said it was an expression of infanticidal attachment, which we had also been talking about, and I had never connected this.
• 6:01
  But in the context of infanticidal attachment being the contract that we have to agree we do not exist, she said me not being able to include myself amongst the grievers was me agreeing that I should not grieve. And that me distancing myself with grief or struggling to engage with grief was an expression of infanticidal attachment, that I do not exist enough to be allowed to grieve, that I do not exist enough to have the right to grieve. I, of course, tried to make a joke and use humor and said something about, I can't exist enough if I don't exist at all. She didn't even engage in that, didn't even laugh at that. Whatever the words were I said that I thought were so funny, Instead, she very seriously said that, yes, we can agree that it is an organizing principle of my life because believing that I don't belong allows me to exist without rallying against the system and institutions I couldn't fix.
• 7:40
  That is a quote. Let me read it again what my therapist said to me. It is an organizing principle of me believing that I don't belong as a way to allow me to exist without having to rally against the institutions I couldn't fix. I was shook. I don't even have better words to explain the gut wrenching pain and dissociative shock and nauseating feeling and all the things that I felt simultaneously at this and tying that back to euphoric recall and how it is easier to remember that something was good for me.
• 8:44
  It is easier to think that something painful was good for me than it is to recognize someone was hurting me, and that is what was painful. This is so Augustinian. Even that even in that context of spirituality, that if I am hungry, I must be closer to God. If I am uncomfortable, I must be closer to righteousness. And this is that same concept relationally.
• 9:20
  And in processing this, part of what becomes so dangerous about euphoric recall is that when we act that out, we become complicit to our own reenactment, harming ourselves where we are already wounded instead of applying the healing medicine of staying away from what hurts us. I want to break this down really carefully and really sensitively because it is so specific to where we are wounded that it can be very, very painful and very, very activating and hard to undissociate. And in fact, I think this is such a critical piece to healing. I really believe that this is the point where dissociation intersects with daydreaming. Like, if we were actually making a graph, this is that point of intersection where we are dissociating from the daydream, where we are unaware of what is real and not real, which I talked about for ages but could not conceptualize and did not have the support I needed to get myself to safety and out of harm's way enough to see clearly what I was trying to express that I was feeling.
• 10:56
  So just walking through this, okay, just walking through this, I think that we are aware, many of us, right, of just neurobiologically, there's this whole continuum of dopamine seeking from one end of the spectrum being procrastination and the other end of the spectrum being hypersexuality. And yes, I'm connecting those things. I think it's connected through dopamine, and it's a whole continuum. And wherever you lie on the continuum, that's a thing. Most of us sort of pendulum swing between it in some ways, however it is getting expressed.
• 11:39
  But today, specifically, I'm talking about euphoric recall and sexuality because when we were sexualized as children, we are adults with sexualized littles. I do not mean all littles are sexualized. I do not mean eroticizing what is innocent. That is already where the wound is. I am speaking to that wound specifically.
• 12:06
  I am not speaking to, like, all the parts or sexualizing all the littles. I don't mean that. That's part of what I wanna be really sensitive about. I am not violating more innocence. I am talking about innocence that has already been violated.
• 12:24
  Does that make sense? So I'm also not talking about sex in general. I am not talking about healthy relationships or healthy partners. I am talking about wounded parts of us, and I am talking about unhealthy relationships, and I am talking about the reenactment that happens, that shows up through euphoric recall, not because we are bad, not because any part of us are bad, not because we have bad partners. What I am talking about is that when we are sexualized as children, that is where the wound is.
• 13:13
  And if we are dissociated from that being where the wound is, we can't always see clearly when we are going to step into that wound. And when we are daydreaming, grooming as relationship, then we are separating ourselves from healing. We don't do this on purpose. Right? It's subconscious.
• 13:42
  It's unconscious. It's all this stuff that we can't access. But because we are trying to heal, because we want to heal, even folks not in therapy yet are still trying to find answers for wounds they can't see. And so we are constantly trying to resolve it. And because it hurts so much, the pain of being a sexualized child, the pain of carrying these wounds isn't tolerable and unbearable.
• 14:16
  And those are wounds we are trying to outrun. Those are wounds we are trying to escape. Those are wounds that we want rescue from because we were children when they happened. And in trying to find anything that will make it feel better or anyone who can rescue us from it, any way out of it, that is how we end up in reenactment. Most of us most days don't wake up and think, oh, I will reenact today.
• 14:52
  Let me work this out, or I will enact today. Right? So so showing through behaviors what is happening inside, communicating behaviorally or relationally instead of in words. We don't do this on purpose, but it is easier to do that than to sit fully present with ourselves and the pain that we carry every single day. As we work on these things in therapy and that starts to surface, sometimes it still only shows up relationally.
• 15:29
  And when that happens in therapy, they sometimes call it erotic transference. I am not talking about sexualizing the relationship with therapy, although it can mean that or it can be misunderstood to assume that. But my therapist was talking about how even in the context of the therapeutic relationship, there is no less love between humans. And even within the context of professional boundaries, that doesn't mean that we do not get to be human, and it does not mean that our therapists do not get to be human. It only means that we are agreeing that for the context of that relationship our therapist is taking care of us instead of them requiring us to take care of them.
• 16:26
  That's the only piece that's one way. And the power dynamic that's innate with that is that we don't know as much about them as they know about us. Not because we are bad or wrong or unwanted or unloved, but because we are framing a context in which it is our wounds being tended to. But that doesn't make us less human. In the same way, with relationships that are more reciprocal, any kind of ship, dating, partners, friends, work, anything.
• 17:04
  When we have intense experiences of attunement, even in the community, this has happened. When we have intense experiences of attunement, what can surface are those wounds from our inner child, our littles who have been sexualized when we were young. And in now time as adults we experience this as desire or attraction, but what's actually happening is that our wounds are recognizing each other. That is not the same as healthy adult to adult relationships, even though no one is bad for it happening. And even though wanting itself is not wrong.
• 17:58
  We are mammals in mammal bodies, and also sexualized children need to not be exploited. What sexualized children need is safety. And as adults, even when it's not about the sexualized children themselves, sometimes what happens is the despair in me about those wounds because I cannot undo them. There is no actual way to outrun what already happened. And so sometimes the despair in me recognizes the despair in you, and it is our despair that finds attunement.
• 18:41
  And that is the point where so many people are like, oh, survivors having contact with each other can be dangerous. And it can be if we lose the difference between now time and memory time. Because our despair, your despair, my despair, the despair of all that we have been through and that we have to carry that, that can be powerful, powerful healing through powerful, powerful attunement where our wounds are affirmed and recognized and that can be a very intense experience. It remains healthy as long as we know that's what's happening, Where I am carrying my wounds and my sexualized children, that's what's implied, right? And you are carrying your wounds and your sexualized children.
• 19:40
  What is unhealthy is that we cannot carry each other's wounds or each other's sexualized children. We cannot use each other to escape our own. We can, in healthy ways, see in each other how bad it was. And we can even say that because of how bad it was, we came apart. And we can even recognize that because of the coming apart, what we need is to be held together.
• 20:25
  Recognizing that need is our despair surfacing, is our sexualized children surfacing. That does not make us bad. That does not make them bad. Those sexualized children were harmed. They're not bad.
• 20:46
  No one in any of these scenarios is bad. There is no badness except for the harm that came to us. So, we face each other's despair with attunement, but when we are doing that in healthy ways, it is not the same as drowning in our own or in each other's. Doing these parallel journeys together prevents us from drowning in our own. Focusing on our own work keeps us from drowning in each other's.
• 21:36
  Does that make sense? So it is like when I talked about the drowning whale, this is the whale surfacing and there being air rather than being pushed under or not lifted up. We are able to lift each other up, but we do not weigh each other down. It's really tricksy. It takes undissociating so that we are present enough in now time, so that we are adult enough in now time that we can tend to our own children without seeking rescue and without acting out what the wound is because adults are able to use their words.
• 22:29
  So we do not have to act it out behaviorally or relationally. This is what makes our community different because it is not therapy and it is not peer support. It is parallel journeying together where I am not alone, but I am doing my own work. Therapy is great. Peer support is great.
• 22:57
  I'm not saying those things are bad. I'm saying this is what is different than that, is we can use all those resources, but then we come together to be not alone while using our while using all of our resources, to be healthy together while we get in touch with our own despair and our own wounds without the acting out of the touching or without the acting out of the rescue. Because if we have sexualized children rescue. Those are children wanting mothers. Those are children wanting fathers.
• 23:49
  Those are children wanting carers who protect and provide and care and keep safe, all the things that babies need, provision and protection and warmth and being clean and held and loved. But I cannot be your parent, and you cannot be my parent, not because we don't care, but because we care so much that we are honoring the wound that already exists. We cannot join in the trance logic with each other that pretends it is not there or that we can make it better. We cannot make better what has already happened. But we can save our own lives by touching that wound to apply the medicine which is therapy rather than touching each other which is avoiding the therapy.
• 24:56
  And in doing so in healthy ways, tending to the wanting and being wanted wounds. So when we were children in memory time and were sexualized through abuse, we get our wires crossed about what it requires for being wanted, what we have to do to be allowed. This goes back to Laura Brown's price of admission, that we have to pay a cost to be wanted. That's why we're acting out in adult relationships where we are harmed or deprived. We are still paying the price of the sexualized child within us, that we have to earn permission or rights or approval to be in relationship that may or may not actually nourish us or protect us.
• 26:02
  That's not healthy. That's not safe. It is a wound from childhood. It wasn't safe or good in the first place, and it's still not safe or good as adults. So, the underlying need to be loved, to be wanted, to be chosen, to be kept is not wrong.
• 26:25
  That is a child need, that is a human need, that is a mammal need. Wanting and wanting to be wanted are what we are supposed to feel as mammals and as humans and as people and as children. We are not bad for having those needs. There's no shame in having those needs. But when those needs are violated through abuse when we are little and we act it out in adulthood, That is not safe.
• 27:08
  It was not safe for us when we're little. It was not safe for us when we were little, and it is not safe for us now. Wounds need medicine. That is first aid. That is native.
• 27:33
  However you want to think about it literally or metaphorically, wounds need medicine. Healing requires applying the medicine to the wound, not ripping the wound open, not exposing the wound, not infecting the wound. We don't need to add to the wound. So, undissociating and un daydreaming to see the wound clearly and to stand what we see feels like danger because we are sitting with, we are being with, we are holding presence with ourselves. However you want to say it, we are seeing the wound and recognizing what we went through.
• 28:36
  When we do that in therapy, rather than looking for people to rescue us, whether that's in relationships or in community ships or friendships, when we tend to those wounds instead of seeking people who will help us avoid them or seeking people who will help us escape them, when we turn towards our own wounds, we heal. When we turn away from ourselves toward other people's wounds in unhealthy ways that become reenactments or enactments, then we betray ourselves and our own wounds because we are trying to tend to others instead of our own. Doctor. Tema and Chuck and my therapist and even Laura Brown and Price of Admission in all these different places, they say that no sex can fill the void of what is missing from childhood. You guys, the wounds of childhood are already there.
• 30:11
  Nothing can make that unhappen. This is a very painful truth. This is a very hard truth. The hard that happened, the wound that is there, and the good that was missing and the hole that is left in us from all the good that was missing, including protection from the harm that caused the wounds, there's no dopamine chasing that can fix that, that can fill that, that can undo that. It is already there.
• 30:49
  Trying to hide that void makes our inner world worse. It turns our inner landscape to hellscape. Touching the outside, the body, the skin of someone else, does not make our insides better. With healthy boundaries, whether that is in any kind of ship, friendships, work relationships, dating relationships, partners, therapy, with healthy boundaries. We can, with tender attunement, affirm our own existence that is beyond the despair.
• 31:33
  But we cannot ignore the despair or try to escape it by acting it out instead of saying it or feeling it or tending to it. This is the vow, as doctor Tema says, of systems speak, to be with each other safely, to connect in ways that are healing, to show up as adults tending to our own wounds, to not do to each other what everyone else has done to us to stay present with ourselves together so that we are not harming each other or ourselves by trying to escape ourselves. System speak children. We should not be raping babies. We are allowed to want.
• 32:51
  We are allowed to love. We are allowed to need because babies are doing nothing wrong in wanting or needing. Children are doing nothing wrong in wanting and needing. Mammals want, mammals need, mammals attaching. Attaching is not bad.
• 33:13
  Loving your therapist is not bad. But it's like when Rachel came and presented in the community and was explicit about all the boundaries, one of the things she said is like what we've said at this symposium. We do this with our clothes on. That is part of how we protect the babies. That is part of how we protect those sexualized children who already have been wounded.
• 33:42
  We do not sacrifice the babies. We do not sacrifice the children. We protect them. We keep them wrapped up warm and safe. We keep them held safely.
• 33:57
  We keep them nourished, not hungry. We all want to stop the pain. We all want the pain to stop. I say it both ways over and over. We all want to stop the pain, and we all want the pain to stop.
• 34:17
  But the pain needs the right medicine. The wound needs the right medicine, which is therapy. And our presence with each other does not replace therapy, and our presence with each other does not replace parenting. And the pain never goes away, because what they did, the abusers, what they did will never be okay. It will always hurt, because it was hurtful.
• 34:52
  And that is actually part of the medicine, because the pain witnesses for us the wound itself, even when there were no other witnesses. What they did will never be okay. When we come together in community, in healthy ships, when we come together, we put the desire to heal ahead of the desire to die. That is how connection brings healing. It is impossible to be a bad child.
• 35:37
  Babies are not bad, but as adults, we contribute to their safety by not adding to their harm. We ensure that we are not complicit bystanders by not doing to them what was done to us. We are not wrong for any of the feelings that surface. We are not bad for any of our feelings. And also, we recognize the need underneath them for safety and health and protection.
• 36:21
  And those are the needs we say yes to for ourselves, for our children inside, for those babies that do not need to be left alone any longer. And I will protect mine, and you will protect yours. And that is what helps us be healthy together without denying needs and also embracing health. That is what we mean when we say connection brings healing. It's not escaping our wounds.
• 37:09
  It's not outrunning them. It's not pretending they're not there. It is tending to them individually so that we can come together beautifully in healthy ways, in safe ways. So that connection is that connection, not enactment or reenactment, which do not bring healing. It brings neglect and harm and delays healing.
• 37:49
  Healthy connection brings healing. Safe connection brings healing. Connection with ourselves brings healing. Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this.
• 44:10
  Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes. We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy.
• 44:39
  Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too. That's what peer support is all about. Being human together. So yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.