Latest / TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast / #751: NGOs Are Enabling Addiction with Pablo Antonio & DC Posch

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#751: NGOs Are Enabling Addiction with Pablo Antonio & DC Posch · TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast

• 0:00
  You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.
• 0:10
  We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.
• 0:13
  All the central banks going nuts.
• 0:16
  So it's all acting like safe haven.
• 0:18
  I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.
• 0:25
  In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.
• 0:28
  I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.
• 0:31
  If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.
• 0:36
  Pablo DC, welcome to the show.
• 0:39
  Thanks for having us.
• 0:41
  Thanks for coming and thanks for your work.
• 0:43
  We've got a hard stop in about 56 minutes, so let's just jump right up into it.
• 0:49
  You guys went a bit viral last month because you're showing how easy it is to buy fentanyl with food stamps in San Francisco.
• 0:57
  Why did you guys decide to go make this video to prove this particular route to fentanyl acquisition exists?
• 1:07
  I can jump in on this.
• 1:10
  Yeah, Marty, thanks for having me.
• 1:12
  Long-time listener, first-time caller.
• 1:16
  But yeah, we started basically City's Club in San Francisco,
• 1:22
  trying to find ways to help the city and just make it the best place possible.
• 1:27
  It is very rare that we had like such amount of wealth creation in a city and like things have degraded.
• 1:37
  And we just like it's just a side project with a bunch of friends who all have, you know, day jobs.
• 1:44
  We all take time off our jobs to put in time to find ways to help the city.
• 1:49
  And we have different projects in the works.
• 1:52
  one of them was that we stumbled into a lot of fraud that was happening just by you know
• 2:00
  sniffing around and we just wanted to show it to people and say like hey like we think the best
• 2:07
  disinfectant is like just you know sunlight and if we have any chance on improving the city
• 2:16
  the best like the order of business first order business is you know plug the holes where like
• 2:22
  the water is flowing out and uh then you know pour in clean water later
• 2:27
  you know i can i can speak a bit to like how we how we ran into this too um you know mario have
• 2:36
  you have you ever been in a developing country and you kind of you come out of the the the airport
• 2:42
  or the train station and there's people like taxi, taxi,
• 2:45
  and they're hassling you to do, to sell you something?
• 2:52
  Yes.
• 2:53
  Yeah.
• 2:53
  Costa Rica and Newark, New Jersey.
• 2:56
  Yeah.
• 2:56
  Yes.
• 2:57
  New Jersey, of course.
• 3:00
  They come with their hair slicked back.
• 3:03
  No, we basically experienced this at the farmer's market.
• 3:07
  You go to the farmer's market in SF and specific ones in particular,
• 3:12
  And you can just see, you know, these people, you know, a lot of them like, you know, sort of older ladies, funnily enough, like, and you can see them doing this to people who have the EBT paper coupons.
• 3:32
  And, you know, they're like, sell, sell, chasing them around.
• 3:37
  And this is how we got down this road.
• 3:39
  Like, what's going on here, right?
• 3:40
  and we ended up going to the farmer market basically every week, every Sunday for a couple
• 3:48
  months. And, you know, we had cameras. We had friends. One funny thing that's not widely known,
• 4:00
  by the way, about like, you know, food stamps is they are not acid tested. Like, so like how many
• 4:09
  assets you have is like not part of the eligibility criteria, which means if you like, you know,
• 4:15
  just quit your job at Google and you're starting at Facebook in six months, technically during those
• 4:20
  six months, you're eligible for food stamps. Right. So one, you know, like friend of ours
• 4:27
  basically got an EBT card, perfectly legit, all accurate and went there. And, you know,
• 4:37
  So they give you one interesting thing about EBT that we should say is the surveillance on it is quite good in normal places.
• 4:46
  If you go to a Walmart and you try to buy a non EBT eligible item and pay for it with food stamps, it won't work at all.
• 4:54
  It's all tracked at the point of checkout.
• 4:58
  There's this beautiful national system called Alert that like, you know, tracks snap usage.
• 5:04
  But the big loophole of the farmer market is they'll give you paper coupons, you know, for an EBT swipe.
• 5:12
  And not only that, but they have these other matching funds we talked about a bit in our video that get sort of blended in.
• 5:22
  So, you know, you can take, say, you know, 30 bucks of food stamp from your EBT, get 90 bucks of paper coupons.
• 5:30
  Now it's untraceable because it's paper. And there's this whole sort of ecosystem of people who are there who are willing to buy that from you for, let's say, 45 bucks.
• 5:39
  You know, now you have you've turned 30 bucks of food stamp balance into 45 bucks cash.
• 5:44
  It's insane. And how prevalent is this?
• 5:48
  In terms of an acquisition mechanism for for drugs specifically.
• 5:54
  yeah you know we we the other angle that we had on this is we went and we just interviewed a number
• 6:03
  of uh street addicts uh people by the way people like to say you know homeless that's sort of like
• 6:11
  but a lot of them actually aren't homeless um they have homes yeah exactly exactly like a lot of them
• 6:19
  are in these what are called sros which is single room occupancy which is basically
• 6:24
  you know, government provided housing and a lot of it. And, you know, we'll get into this a little
• 6:29
  bit later, but one crazy thing, really crazy thing in California is you like by state law,
• 6:35
  they don't do state funding for sober housing. You know, they call it housing first, which means
• 6:42
  like, yeah, you know, we fund these SROs and people explicitly who are still like actively,
• 6:48
  you know, using drugs are allowed in these buildings to live in these buildings.
• 6:52
  you can imagine how hard this is for people who are trying to get clean they're now next to people
• 6:57
  who are doing it and so a lot of them are not even actually homeless they're street addicts they're
• 7:01
  like you know in there at night they're out during the day or other way around in many cases getting
• 7:07
  their getting their fix and what we found is if you just walk up to them and like offer them a
• 7:13
  coffee right a lot of them are really happy to talk to someone who is sort of connecting them
• 7:18
  in a human way, like not just as like, you know, a cop or a caseworker or whatever.
• 7:24
  And, you know, you take him to the corner store. We both get a coffee. They're happy to just
• 7:31
  volunteer like the whole story. They're like, yeah, you know, here's how much it costs me every
• 7:36
  month to buy the, you know, here's how like I get my my funding. You know, I use my my food stamps.
• 7:43
  You know, I don't need that because you get free food at this other place. And like they'll just
• 7:47
  walk you through the whole whole story um and it is very sad because you know you can kind of see
• 7:53
  how they're being farmed in a sense it's like you know you know you have all of these like
• 7:57
  this whole like NGO complex that's like you know a bunch of pretty well-paid people who like
• 8:03
  are like you know sort of do-gooder presenting but they're like actively enabling these guys's
• 8:09
  addictions yeah the the worst part is when you jump into the do-gooder NGO this is a big shit
• 8:14
  oh go ahead babo oh no i was just gonna say that like the worst part like like what did what it
• 8:23
  it is really heartbreaking is when we started meeting uh the moms of a lot of guys that are
• 8:30
  out in the street and like uh it really that's that's that's a rough one that's a rough one
• 8:37
  because like it is very i i look it's not great when you're in the bus and there's like a crazy
• 8:43
  person screaming at you and like throwing poop or something uh but um it is a different like you get
• 8:51
  a different side of the story when you hear about her mom like that like this this guy's mom who
• 8:57
  like is he's out in the street like a crazy person or like on crazy drugs but they have you know they
• 9:03
  have families but uh at some point they were five and they were a kid right and like it you talk to
• 9:09
  the mom and see the pictures of the guy when he was a kid it's like it really it's really rough
• 9:13
  uh and um i mean yeah these people are not trying to be demonized like they're like they need help
• 9:21
  but like this do what they're what they're receiving that you might be breaking up on us
• 9:27
  we might be losing them um well the good thing is with this but what they're receiving is not help
• 9:32
  yeah yeah but what they're receiving is not help it's just like what they're receiving from the
• 9:38
  NGOs is like being, they're being enabled to do more drugs.
• 9:43
  How did you get in contact with some of their mothers?
• 9:49
  So you asked, how do you, how did we get in contact with the moms?
• 9:53
  There's this amazing organization actually. And, you know,
• 9:57
  we found them afterwards as a result of doing this investigation of they're
• 10:02
  called mothers against drug deaths.
• 10:05
  Um, and it's, they're working really, I think they're, they're, they're a really great organization. They're, they're basically, uh, one of their, their big things that they're, they're pushing on right now is fixing that sober housing law that we were talking about, about, you know, Hey, actually, it's totally insane that we, you know, specifically require these sort of like, you know, uh,
• 10:35
  permanent supportive housing to be like drugs allowed, you know, like we should be able to fund
• 10:41
  sober housing. We should be doing that instead. Um, and they're, they, they all like every one of
• 10:50
  them has like a kid who either is currently addicted or like was addicted and has recovered.
• 10:56
  Um, they, they, they have some really powerful stories. I think one of the like most poignant
• 11:03
  that I saw was, uh, one of the moms was telling us about like, you know, how basically she was
• 11:12
  like scrolling Facebook, you know, and she'd been like having this struggle for years with her son
• 11:17
  was like, you know, had a hard time with sort of like in drugs, in remission or what's it called,
• 11:24
  you know, recovery relapse. Right. Um, and there's this, you know, video on the Facebook
• 11:32
  wall of a guy on BART, which is the train system here in SF, like, you know, sort of
• 11:39
  like passed out next to like a, you know, a puddle of puke.
• 11:43
  And there's like all of these guys in the comments, you know, saying mean things.
• 11:48
  They're like, oh, you know, this like this is what happens when we like don't, you know,
• 11:54
  like have order on the train, like don't don't don't enforce the laws like, you know, this
• 12:00
  is fucked up.
• 12:00
  And, and it is obviously objectively, um, there's, there's some people being realistic
• 12:05
  mean about it.
• 12:06
  And she goes in there and she's like, that's him.
• 12:08
  Right.
• 12:09
  So she put a comment, be like, this is, I've been looking for him.
• 12:12
  This is my son.
• 12:13
  And a bunch of those same people who had commented like, you know, sort of nasty things about
• 12:17
  him, like replied to that.
• 12:21
  And they're like, we're so sorry.
• 12:22
  That's really messed up.
• 12:23
  You know, like that you can, you know, like, uh, people, people have this sort of like,
• 12:29
  I think dual thing. And it's very sad that you see it where it's like, you know, learn helplessness.
• 12:34
  It's like, okay, this stuff is like really destroying our public space, but you know,
• 12:38
  whatever, there's nothing we can do about it. And that turns into like a sort of callousness.
• 12:42
  You know, you see people who are like really having a bad time and you don't really see them
• 12:46
  as like a person versus like, as like a disturbance. Right. But, you know, I think
• 12:53
  there's this like really sort of unfortunate dynamic, at least so far in the Bay Area where
• 12:59
  people that all of the like, oh, let's be compassionate to the homeless people.
• 13:03
  Like it boils down to like, let them keep doing drugs.
• 13:06
  And so Mothers Against Drug Deaths, I think is a really powerful organization because they're
• 13:10
  like, you know, no, how about we like, you know, actually, you know, crack down on the
• 13:16
  drug use, like, you know, get people like into involuntary treatment, like do treatment
• 13:22
  first instead of housing first, like all of these things, because like they actually care
• 13:26
  about their kids getting out of this.
• 13:28
  Yeah, I mean, that gets to the key question. Is this problem been allowed to persist because of bad policy that comes from a good place?
• 13:44
  or is the intended policy, well, not maybe the explicit,
• 13:48
  but the implicit policy to continue a degradation of civility
• 13:57
  in public spaces to force the state of California to step in
• 14:03
  and demand more tax dollars to try to fix this
• 14:06
  so money can be funneled to cronies and NGOs and other agencies.
• 14:12
  Yep.
• 14:14
  Yeah, I think it's a lot of both. Pablo, do you want to speak to that?
• 14:19
  Yeah, I think it is a dual problem on the government side and on the NGO side.
• 14:30
  Um, they're kind of like, but I think, um, the winning, the winning thing to get like
• 14:39
  the problem fixed is, uh, I think on the ground sort of like with, with like civilians that
• 14:46
  like see the problem up close and like are directly affected and like amplifying that
• 14:51
  voice as much as possible.
• 14:52
  And I think even I sure there are certainly like bad actors and like and and government officials but they also like good people that you know actually do care
• 15:06
  Uh, and they're like, Hey, like, like there is another way.
• 15:10
  Like we like, look at this guy, look at like here, listen to the story of like the, the
• 15:17
  moms and like, look at like how ridiculous it is to actually get drugs with like government
• 15:23
  money uh if we close this loop we can get help these people actually and yes there should probably
• 15:31
  be some some some crackdown on anyone who's doing like bats like illegal stuff or like funneling
• 15:37
  money in like a bad way but i wouldn't like go out and say like that everyone in the government
• 15:42
  is like terrible and everyone in the ngos is like a terrible person like i'm sure they're good people
• 15:46
  but i think there are sort of like these perverse incentives in which maybe their bosses are
• 15:53
  like blinded to like what the situation on the ground is and how it's not like it has improved
• 16:00
  somewhat with the new mayor i would say uh i would say with with with lorry like basically all the
• 16:07
  things that matter have improved i in my opinion they could go faster and they could go like even
• 16:14
  deeper but um yeah and that's that's what i would say so freaks this work was brought to you by
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• 18:17
  I'll just say anecdotally
• 18:19
  I've been to San Francisco
• 18:21
  three times in the last 10 years
• 18:23
  2016
• 18:25
  went with my wife and her
• 18:28
  family and we went to
• 18:29
  wine country for a weekend and spent a day
• 18:31
  in San Francisco
• 18:33
  I think it was like MLK day
• 18:35
  I spent the Monday there
• 18:37
  we parked our car in Golden Gate Park
• 18:39
  got robbed immediately
• 18:41
  took all of our luggage or passports and stuff
• 18:43
  2019
• 18:44
  2019
• 18:46
  19, went back to wine country with my wife, just the two of us.
• 18:52
  We stayed at a hotel in San Francisco the night before we drove up to Napa.
• 18:58
  And as soon as we get out of the Uber, there's some guy pleasuring himself on the steps of the hotel that we were staying at.
• 19:04
  I was like, oh, welcome back to San Francisco.
• 19:07
  Right.
• 19:07
  I would say the last time I was there was November of last year.
• 19:11
  Granted, I was staying in the Presidio, but I had some time to walk around.
• 19:14
  It was much better.
• 19:15
  I didn't see. And actually, there's actually a fourth time I was in there in 2018. I actually
• 19:20
  walked from the top of the hill down through the Tenderloin and towards Market Street to squares.
• 19:30
  That was the worst I saw up close and personal. But when I was there in November, it actually
• 19:34
  seemed better than it was in 2019, the last time I was there. Man, the new mayor is quite great.
• 19:42
  I think he might have the highest approval rating of any mayor in the city.
• 19:48
  In the country, yes.
• 19:49
  Rather, like, you know, any mayor in the city.
• 19:53
  Pretty sure he has the highest approval rating of any mayor.
• 19:56
  Yeah, in the country, because, you know, it's just, there's still a long way to go.
• 20:04
  Like, I think, you know, we can get into this a bit later, too.
• 20:09
  I think, you know, one thing that Pablo and I and our friends have been thinking a lot about is like, you know, what does it take to have like real, you know, civic ambition?
• 20:18
  You know, like not just like, oh, you know, fix this problem, make that like parking situation a little better.
• 20:24
  But like, hey, actually, you know, with like how productive SF is, it should be like a really like great world city.
• 20:31
  It should be like something that people go and say, you know, like, wow, in a good way, you know, not just like not wow in a bad way.
• 20:39
  Yeah. And Pablo, I think this is what we've bonded over over the years. I mean, it's your love of aesthetics and bringing back beauty into the world, which, I mean, the lived environment and the physical environment affects how you react physically and mentally as an individual.
• 20:58
  And to this point, I mean, walking through the, like I avoided San Francisco for seven, six years because of that physical reality situation that I experienced over multiple trips, which was nothing to do with the architecture, but literally with filth on the streets and being accosted by homeless people either pleasuring themselves or trying to steal our luggage.
• 21:26
  Yep, many such cases.
• 21:30
  Yeah, I would say that San Francisco is, to me, as a non-U.S. citizen, a person who's here, like, visiting, it feels to me that San Francisco is, like, the crown jewel of, like, American cities.
• 21:46
  It's just, like, so beautiful.
• 21:48
  The problem is that it many times has been mismanaged.
• 21:53
  and that makes sort of like,
• 21:57
  it makes the mismanagement worse in some way.
• 22:01
  The fact that you're mismanaging
• 22:02
  like one of the most beautiful cities in the world.
• 22:06
  And the other problem I think is that
• 22:09
  I think the Victorian houses are so incredibly beautiful
• 22:13
  and like the city itself is so like,
• 22:17
  it gets striking.
• 22:18
  It's like the beauty is really striking.
• 22:20
  it sort of creates this weird sort of checkmate situation.
• 22:29
  Juxtaposition.
• 22:29
  Sort of like of people not wanting to build.
• 22:34
  And just like, oh, no, we should keep it as is,
• 22:37
  like not disturb it.
• 22:39
  And I think the Yimbis, for the most part,
• 22:45
  should embrace the fact that we should build more,
• 22:48
  but we should be more in an affordable way, but also like way more beautiful.
• 22:54
  And like sort of like it should feel like a definite like the next level of like a civilization that we should build.
• 23:02
  And you can't you can't achieve that if you are not thinking that like beauty needs to be a center of that.
• 23:10
  And not just like random stuff that you think is beautiful, but something that is like tethered to like the heritage of the place,
• 23:17
  but also has a view of the future of like, we know where we're going.
• 23:21
  We have a certain view of how the world should be.
• 23:23
  And it's going to be great for everyone.
• 23:25
  And you're going to get on board because like, once you see it,
• 23:28
  like you're going to fall in love with it and you're going to want to be
• 23:31
  like where we're going. And that gets people excited.
• 23:37
  And it, as long as sort of,
• 23:38
  it's this vision of like not only are we trying to make like the best,
• 23:41
  we're also trying to include everyone.
• 23:44
  Basically you can get everyone on board.
• 23:47
  As long as you're making stuff that is beautiful and affordable, like you can also make stuff that is not affordable in certain parts of the city.
• 23:53
  And that sort of like has this weird effect of like the sponge that takes sort of like the demand of the people who are super wealthy and the prices of all the other stuff go down.
• 24:03
  So either way, even if you don't have to only build affordable housing for the cost of living in San Francisco to go down, which is now, I would say, the major problem in San Francisco.
• 24:18
  The homelessness and the – I'm sorry.
• 24:21
  I won't use the euphemisms.
• 24:23
  It's not a homelessness problem.
• 24:24
  The drug problem in San Francisco has improved.
• 24:29
  It is still a big problem that needs to be addressed.
• 24:32
  That's for sure.
• 24:33
  it's not like we're living, you know, in like Tokyo, in which like, there are no homeless in the street, there are homeless in the street, and that needs to be addressed. But housing is now the thing that is like, like, just extremely painful for people, especially young people.
• 24:50
  if you've lived in San Francisco for 50 years and you own a home you feel like you're the smartest
• 24:57
  person in the world you just you bought a home for like nothing and like an entropic employee
• 25:04
  and an open ai employee are in this insane bidding war to buy your home for millions of dollars and
• 25:11
  you bought it for nothing like you feel like the smartest person ever and it just creates this
• 25:18
  like situation in which if you're young and you're not like ultra wealthy, you're like screwed.
• 25:25
  And it's terrible for like starting families and people at the beginning of their careers.
• 25:32
  So I think the angle there is not say like either you shouldn't, I don't think the way out is to
• 25:40
  villainize like the people who own homes or even like the people that made a lot of money in tech
• 25:47
  and they're trying to buy homes, the way out is we just need to convince both that we need to build big and beautiful so that just everyone wins.
• 25:58
  And on top of that, the people who are priced out out of San Francisco can also enjoy it and build families.
• 26:07
  Well, how do we get back to that?
• 26:09
  Obviously, you have this nimbyism that exists.
• 26:11
  Totally.
• 26:11
  And I think to your point about the Victorians in San Francisco being objectively beautiful and a lot of people not wanting to disturb that, I think that's because we lost our way.
• 26:26
  What we're going to do is we're going to make beautiful Grecofuturism renders that are going to strike them of how beautiful everything is.
• 26:36
  And we're going to convince them that they need to be real and we need to do everything in our power to make it real because they're going to be so beautiful that they won't be able to help themselves but want to want it.
• 26:49
  I agree.
• 26:50
  I mean, if you're not following Pablo, go follow him in my accent.
• 26:54
  It'll be in the...
• 26:55
  In the show description, but I mean, you've been tweeting these Greco renderings for many years now.
• 27:03
  And it's like, how do you actually go from that rendering to the reality?
• 27:07
  How do you convince developers specifically?
• 27:09
  Well, we have a first project in the works, a monument that I designed for Aaron Schwartz,
• 27:16
  an internet hero that had very strong values for an open internet, sort of these core internet
• 27:27
  values that most tech people, I would say most people believe, but they just need to be reminded
• 27:34
  of, which is freedom of speech, freedom of access to information and privacy.
• 27:41
  So these three core values kind of counterbalance each other.
• 27:45
  And the plan is to have sort of like this, a new style really of like beauty and that
• 27:52
  is tethered to our humanity that has a strong idea of the future.
• 27:56
  It has this monument that has a marble bust that I had made of him that is currently at
• 28:06
  the Internet Archive installed on top of the monument.
• 28:09
  It's sort of this stone bench that is inviting for people to sit on and admire the skyline of San Francisco.
• 28:19
  And that is sort of like the first beacon of like, hey, we want to create this future that is like human and that has a connection to beauty.
• 28:31
  And it's sort of like this counter vision of what many times tech is now.
• 28:41
  So the plan is to have the monument face Salesforce Tower, sort of have it this sort of like two competing visions of tech.
• 28:52
  Of like, do you want the corporate for profit or do you want the open source nonprofit?
• 28:57
  It's sort of like, do you want the glass towering structure or do you want the inviting stone bench at a human scale?
• 29:07
  And so that's the angle to try to, as a first project, sort of make it real and show people, this is where we want to go.
• 29:16
  Yeah, totally.
• 29:18
  The Aaron monument is going to be really beautiful.
• 29:20
  It's going to be actual stone.
• 29:22
  It's going to be Greco-futuristic.
• 29:23
  I think zoomed out like one step from this is you need existence proofs.
• 29:28
  You need proofs that this is possible because one of the, you know, I think if you really
• 29:33
  zoom all the way out, San Francisco is very unique in that it is basically like kind of
• 29:41
  like spring loaded for greatness.
• 29:43
  There's like a lot of very smart people here.
• 29:45
  There's a lot of resources.
• 29:46
  There's a lot of capability, a lot of people who really know how to get stuff done.
• 29:50
  And yet if you look at an aerial photo SF today looks almost exactly the same as it did 70 years ago You know there like the Salesforce tower is new but it like it not inspiring and it very few things
• 30:06
  And one part of the reason for that is because,
• 30:10
  you know, everyone sort of implicitly assumes
• 30:13
  it can't be done.
• 30:14
  There's a bunch of people in SF where like,
• 30:15
  yeah, you know, we can, you know,
• 30:17
  build a billion dollar company.
• 30:20
  We can build like a, you know,
• 30:22
  fully autonomous robot factory in like,
• 30:25
  you know, the middle of the desert
• 30:26
  in Nevada, we can go to space, but like, you know, building a few buildings, like nice big buildings
• 30:32
  next to Golden Gate Park, like the ones you see next to Central Park, impossible. Don't even think
• 30:37
  about that. And like, until you bust through that with like existence proofs, you know, a statue,
• 30:43
  an actual building later that exists that like, you know, shows people like, actually, yeah, you can
• 30:49
  make beautiful things. There's no law against it. It doesn't have to be like a thing that looks like
• 30:53
  a stack of lego cubes like uh you know that's how i think you get like the the the real like
• 30:59
  you know sort of snowball rolling on this yeah the greco futurist is uh very inspiring and it's
• 31:09
  another like because that's that's what i worry about like the um again going back to like the
• 31:14
  contractors people that actually build these buildings there's very few people that think
• 31:18
  about aesthetics and i think dc i'm not how uh i'm not sure how familiar you are with like this
• 31:24
  show and like um the intersection of bitcoin and urbanism but it comes back to like time
• 31:28
  preference like a lot of these builders are yep yep incentivized to just get the cheapest materials
• 31:34
  throw something up um use something cookie cutter because it's cheap or fast and like how do we
• 31:40
  like i think the thousand year home guys everybody working on the the brick masonry
• 31:44
  revitalism in the middle of America are doing an incredible job to bring back beautiful aesthetics
• 31:50
  to small neighborhoods. But when it comes to building larger buildings and cities like this
• 31:57
  Greco futurist aesthetic that you're really refining, Pablo, is something that is inspiring
• 32:03
  and hopeful to me and something that I wish people would go after. But it's like, how do you
• 32:07
  convince these guys? And it was encouraging to see Spencer Pratt, I think in one of his recent
• 32:12
  interview saying that they're going to begin bringing art deco back to los angeles amazing
• 32:19
  the do you think there's a market there on the contractor side to actually go build these things
• 32:27
  well i'll i'll push back a little bit here just for the fun of it uh that um i don't know if we
• 32:34
  can go back to art deco i don't know if there's any going back at all at like in like in general
• 32:40
  Uh, like the, the, the, the, the arrow history moves in one direction.
• 32:46
  Uh, overall there are cycles, there are cycles, but overall they are like the line, like it,
• 32:52
  like the future should look like the future.
• 32:55
  Uh, and we shouldn't LARP the past.
• 32:59
  Uh, we should, we should learn from it and we should revive it whenever it's needed.
• 33:04
  And like have, uh, it's a revival is different from LARPing.
• 33:09
  Revival is like animating it back and actually finding new ways in which it fits within your time.
• 33:18
  We don't want to live in a Renaissance fair.
• 33:20
  That's lame.
• 33:22
  We don't want to live in Disney World, right?
• 33:25
  We want to live in a real place.
• 33:28
  And being in a real place, it should feel like it's new and it's like authentic.
• 33:33
  And it is new, but also tethered to the history of the place.
• 33:43
  Who are the young builders who are going to do this?
• 33:46
  That's my question.
• 33:48
  You know, I don't know if they're exactly the ones that are going to do it in SF, but have you seen the American Housing Corporation?
• 34:03
  I have not, no.
• 34:05
  Great.
• 34:05
  They're friends of mine.
• 34:06
  Great.
• 34:07
  There's a Twitter account called at Yimbyland.
• 34:13
  I'm familiar with that account.
• 34:15
  He's one of the founders.
• 34:16
  And they're really doing, I think, amazing work of, like, make something that is sort of, you know, human, family-oriented, aesthetically aspirational, but also something that can be constructed quickly.
• 34:33
  Because this is the other thing.
• 34:35
  It's very important to like do the existence proof to show people it can be done is like, you know, you can actually build housing in like less than a decade in SF.
• 34:45
  It's not going to be easy.
• 34:47
  But if you have like, you know, sort of like enough chutzpah and will and like you really line things up, I think you can do this much faster than people assume it can be done.
• 34:56
  Because if it's like, oh, you know, it's this thing that's going to take forever.
• 34:59
  Maybe in 2037 we'll have this thing.
• 35:02
  you know it's impossible to build momentum and excitement around that um so they're they're
• 35:07
  they're really uh doing great work on like tight timelines and i'm excited about them i would say
• 35:13
  the other two other companies that i like on this is a famous one monument labs in new york i think
• 35:20
  they're doing great work i work with them for the errand bust uh yeah and yeah mike is fantastic i
• 35:27
  I know another guy in London who has a very similar angle.
• 35:32
  He uses similar machines.
• 35:34
  He has a different software technology called Gonder Industries.
• 35:38
  I also like them.
• 35:40
  The housing corporation is fantastic.
• 35:42
  I'm a huge fan of what those guys are doing in Austin.
• 35:47
  So, I mean, Marty, you're in Austin, right?
• 35:50
  So you should meet those guys.
• 35:53
  You're in Texas, no?
• 35:55
  Not anymore.
• 35:56
  I moved back to Philadelphia where I'm from, where I'm spoiled with beautiful architecture,
• 36:00
  at least with sprinkled in terrible architecture from the last three decades.
• 36:06
  But that's what I moved back to be closer to family.
• 36:10
  And we actually just bought like a 112 year old house.
• 36:14
  It's like stone.
• 36:16
  And part of the reason why it was like the aesthetics.
• 36:19
  And it's been around for 100 years.
• 36:21
  It's got Lindy and it's got very good bones.
• 36:23
  And we don't have to do much to it.
• 36:25
  we are going to revitalize it to a certain extent. But part of the reason we move back is you can find
• 36:30
  one of these homes that's relatively affordable and is beautiful on top of secondary to being
• 36:37
  closer to family. But I feel very fortunate and lucky that we were able to find this house and
• 36:43
  lock it down. And to your point, Pablo, like we need to, like there's a 112 year old house. We
• 36:50
  probably shouldn't rebuild this house for moving forward.
• 36:53
  But like really diving into the idea of build for the future.
• 37:00
  Don't try to LARP.
• 37:01
  We don't want to create like a Renaissance fair world.
• 37:06
  It's different from an actual Renaissance.
• 37:08
  What you want is an actual like Italian Renaissance.
• 37:10
  That's what that's what you want.
• 37:12
  And that's what like the people in the Renaissance figure out.
• 37:14
  That's what like the great like the greatest merchants of history,
• 37:19
  the ones in Florence and Venice, they realized that their legitimacy was not,
• 37:29
  they had no legitimacy, unlike the rulers of all other Europe's that were basically kings
• 37:37
  appointed by God because they won a bunch of wars. The merchants didn't have any of that.
• 37:42
  And basically they were looked down upon. And the way for merchants to build a great civilization is to, I think, create legitimacy through beauty and reviving history and culture and create this renewed vision of the future that does not feel completely fake from the past.
• 38:11
  but it definitely feels new.
• 38:12
  Like Italian Renaissance was not a lark of Greece,
• 38:17
  but it was severely influenced by it.
• 38:19
  They were trying to imitate the Greeks in a way and surpass them.
• 38:23
  That's the key thing.
• 38:24
  Like the ambition to surpass the great civilizations from the past.
• 38:29
  While like you want what you want is for the Greeks of antiquity
• 38:36
  to look at the stuff like we built
• 38:38
  and they feel like we are the natural inheritors of their tradition.
• 38:43
  But at the same time, we surpass them.
• 38:45
  That's like that's like one of the most ambitious things a civilization can aspire to do.
• 38:51
  And that's what we should be aiming for.
• 38:53
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• 41:11
  How do you guys feel about the current state
• 41:13
  of the tech sector in SF
• 41:17
  and like the different directions?
• 41:18
  I mean, you mentioned like closed source software
• 41:21
  and open source.
• 41:23
  And I think obviously it's a bit played out at this point, but it'd be remiss not to bring it up, like the slopification of the Internet stemming from the innovations happening around AI in San Francisco, specifically in other parts of the world, but predominantly San Francisco.
• 41:40
  It's like, how do we make sure that we're, I mean, it's inarguable.
• 41:44
  This technology is incredibly beneficial for humanity if understood how to wield, if you understand how to wield it properly.
• 41:53
  But like to that point, how do we push people towards wielding it properly and then designing a physical space around that that that respects the progress that we're making as a civilization and sort of enshrines it in the physical landscape while also using the digital world to to advance humanity at the same time?
• 42:17
  Yeah, that might be one of like defining questions of our time.
• 42:20
  Like, how do you wield like AI?
• 42:23
  but I don't have the answer to that yet,
• 42:27
  but I think there's still room to do stuff in the physical world,
• 42:35
  not just in the digital one.
• 42:37
  Well, what's your hunch?
• 42:40
  How is it being wrongly wielded right now?
• 42:44
  Who's wielding it properly, in your opinion?
• 42:48
  I have a soft spot for open source.
• 42:53
  But I always, like one day I wake up and think like, yeah, open source, like the way to the
• 43:00
  promised land.
• 43:02
  All days I wake up and it's like, yeah, but like it can also get, like it has all these
• 43:08
  dangers if you open source, like the most advanced frontier models, maybe not current
• 43:13
  ones, but maybe the ones in next year.
• 43:17
  That could be dangerous.
• 43:18
  do you want to uh marty do you mind open sourcing how to uh like make nuclear bombs or rather let's
• 43:24
  say how to make the stealth technology on the b2 bomber would you mind if other like anyone figure
• 43:31
  out how to make b2 bombers as an american maybe you'd say like no we don't we don't want that uh
• 43:38
  so it is not an easy question um but i i still have a soft spot in my heart for open source so
• 43:45
  So for today, I'll say that I think it's probably best to open source a bunch of stuff.
• 43:53
  I would agree there.
• 43:53
  DC, do you have any thoughts on this?
• 43:56
  Yeah, man.
• 43:56
  I think there's this fascinating role inversion where right now the best open source AI models are actually Chinese.
• 44:11
  and they're only a few months behind the the you know state of the art they're maybe as good as as
• 44:18
  uh you know claude and chad gpt and and uh the the you know uh like opus series was
• 44:24
  call it three to six months ago uh so very funny situation that like you know sort of the
• 44:33
  the the freedom software is coming from there i would really like to see that
• 44:38
  switch around again in the future.
• 44:41
  Like that's spiritually,
• 44:42
  I feel like that's spiritually our job.
• 44:45
  And I think, you know,
• 44:50
  you mentioned Spencer Pratt earlier.
• 44:53
  He had, I'm sure you've seen, you know,
• 44:56
  a lot of real banger campaign videos some of them AI generated So I really think it just a force multiplier And people talk about like oh how do you prove that you human things like that
• 45:10
  I think that's sort of beside the point. It's like the slop comes from people,
• 45:14
  like it always has. And the people who want to post slop now have tools that let them post a lot
• 45:19
  more slop, whatever, we're going to have good tools to filter out the slop and not look at it.
• 45:24
  And the thing that's magical to me is like the people who want to make, you know, have actually something to say, we have something to build.
• 45:34
  They get the force multiplier, too.
• 45:36
  You know, Pablo and I have each done some renders where we take, for example, a picture of a certain part of SF.
• 45:46
  And then, you know, you go back and forth with the model a bunch until you've like turned it into like what it should look like.
• 45:52
  And you post the before and after.
• 45:54
  People really respond to that.
• 45:56
  So there's a lot of just really great creative powers.
• 46:02
  Yeah.
• 46:03
  I mean, to that point, too.
• 46:04
  I mean, we have a real-world example of this in El Salvador.
• 46:07
  I'm sure you saw the drone videos of the before and after in El Salvador and the restoration of the capital.
• 46:15
  Yes.
• 46:16
  And that proves it is possible.
• 46:18
  It's just where is the will going to come from?
• 46:21
  And to that point, do you feel the momentum building in favor of those of us who would like to see these beautiful pieces of architecture return to the world?
• 46:33
  Pablo, you want to do this one?
• 46:35
  Yeah, I really like what they're doing on like down in El Salvador.
• 46:42
  I think it's very promising.
• 46:45
  I mean, I come from a country that is.
• 46:48
  Oh, no, we might have lost them.
• 46:51
  Okay, I'll just keep going because it might be locally recorded.
• 46:54
  But I really like what they're doing in El Salvador.
• 46:58
  I mean, I come from a country that is like written with violence.
• 47:03
  And I'm really glad that the people of El Salvador now enjoy peace.
• 47:12
  And now the focus has shifted of like, can we make it affordable and beautiful?
• 47:17
  And I think that's the correct move.
• 47:21
  Yeah, if this is not investment advice, but I would probably would want to invest in El Salvador going forward.
• 47:29
  Like it's just like it just seems like it's going to keep improving.
• 47:35
  And yeah, it seems like you have competent leadership that cares and they have proven that they can get stuff done.
• 47:47
  So, yeah, I'm very bullish on that.
• 47:49
  Yeah. I mean, to your question directly about like, is there like momentum building for this kind of thing? You know, I really think there is. Like you look at some of the before and after posts on Twitter, they're really resonating with more people than maybe I would have guessed.
• 48:12
  And I think, you know, it's kind of cliche at this point, but like it's factual.
• 48:23
  Like a lot of like younger people are not really buying into the sort of like previous generation ideal of like, you know, go to, you know, college, be in the city for a little bit.
• 48:37
  And then you go and just like live in the suburbs for the rest of your life.
• 48:40
  that's where you go when you want to start a family. I think there's a lot of people now who
• 48:44
  actually like they want to have kids and they want to have them like in the city. And for that to
• 48:49
  work, you know, your bar for, or equality just becomes much higher. You know, like if I'm by
• 48:55
  myself and there's bad stuff going on in the street, it's not ideal, but I can just like,
• 49:00
  you know, walk by it. You know, if, if you have kids, you know, you don't want them to like have
• 49:07
  that kind of like callousness, like based into their experience.
• 49:10
  You don't want them to be exposed to the danger.
• 49:12
  And, you know, you need to have like an actual, like aspirational
• 49:16
  growing city to be building a lot more so that they can live there
• 49:20
  and they don't have to like move out when they grow up.
• 49:25
  And so I think there's there's a lot more people who think this way now.
• 49:30
  Yeah.
• 49:31
  I mean, and not necessarily directly to that point,
• 49:34
  but as we've been talking, I can't stop thinking about strong towns.
• 49:37
  I think that's the book I've read.
• 49:40
  The one book I've read in the last decade that has affected me the most,
• 49:43
  funnily enough, because it's always on my mind,
• 49:46
  particularly when talking about subjects like this.
• 49:48
  But to that point, the core thesis of that book is that cities are quasi-living organisms
• 49:55
  that if designed properly or done so, because it's an emergent property
• 49:59
  that just arises from the natural development of commerce and community that emerges from
• 50:08
  that particular locality.
• 50:11
  And to that point, how do we make sure that this is done the right way, emergent and natural
• 50:16
  and not sort of diktat, centrally planned?
• 50:21
  We need beautiful buildings, so we're going to build them here, here, and here.
• 50:25
  Let me give you a counterexample to that, though.
• 50:27
  Like, you know, you've heard of Haussmann's renovation of Paris, which was a big project in the 19th century.
• 50:35
  They had, you know, a bunch of sort of infrastructure problems, you know, like transportation was really hard.
• 50:45
  Getting around the city was hard.
• 50:47
  They had, you know, sort of like waterways that weren't clean.
• 50:52
  And he went in and it was somewhat top down.
• 50:56
  It was like a master plan thing, that whole, you know, now like very iconic system of like roundabouts, boulevards, grand arches and the, you know, houseman style apartment buildings.
• 51:09
  That doesn't mean you have to like, you know, like nuke everything and start over.
• 51:14
  But I think, you know, the emergent stuff, it's like one of those things where, you know, you drop an artificial reef and then like the big, beautiful ecosystem kind of grows on it.
• 51:25
  You have to set the like bones of it, like in the right spot for all of this emergence to be able to happen.
• 51:32
  You know, you talked earlier about like, hey, there's all these nice Victorians that people don't want to touch.
• 51:38
  And that's true. There's also huge areas of SF, actually, less well known that are, you know, sort of just like one story, you know, stucco buildings with like a driveway going into each garage.
• 51:53
  it looks like the simpsons intro it's like it's not what this a city should be and so i think
• 51:58
  there's actually like a lot of room to like do some some uh some bulldozing and housemanizing if
• 52:05
  you want to call it that yeah yeah it's funny i think a lot of i was gonna say like i think a lot
• 52:10
  of philadelphia's landscape is inspired by that um that french restoration i'll give you a look at
• 52:15
  benjamin parkway all right it benjamin franklin parkway leading up to the art museum it's very
• 52:20
  French inspired.
• 52:22
  Yeah.
• 52:22
  And that you mentioned like, I think what we're, the things we're working on, on like
• 52:29
  this project and like, um, many of these ideas we were trying to push are not only for San
• 52:36
  Francisco, we are, um, we have an ongoing project with our group that we're, we're working
• 52:43
  on a little book called Little Orange Book that is going to be this nice international
• 52:51
  red, international orange color that is the color of the Golden Gate Bridge and the color
• 52:57
  of like San Francisco Giants, sort of like this iconic color of San Francisco.
• 53:02
  And basically, it will be our ideas on how to improve the city and also what are the
• 53:08
  ideas that can be exported to other cities that want to be the cities of the future.
• 53:15
  And you'll hear more about that in the future.
• 53:19
  I can't wait to read it, to get my hands on it.
• 53:23
  And that's what I love, the very narrow focus on San Francisco, too.
• 53:30
  That's where I think a lot of people make mistakes.
• 53:34
  They try to fix everybody's problems at once.
• 53:36
  And I think that's something that I've definitely become more convinced of is you're not going to solve the world's problems.
• 53:43
  Focus on your local community, the city you live in.
• 53:46
  And I think more and more people need to do that.
• 53:49
  And I think you two are examples of this.
• 53:52
  I mean, we've mentioned them with Expenser Pratt being an example of, hey, I'm going to focus on L.A.
• 53:57
  We're going to make this better.
• 53:58
  We need more of that.
• 54:00
  And I think it was a bit of a rhetorical question because I think it's obvious that the momentum is building in this direction.
• 54:08
  And we're sort of in the discovery phase of how you go from zero to one in terms of implementing it.
• 54:15
  And I think one of the great examples of this is just all the aesthetic accounts on X that have gone crazy and gotten crazy popular in the last five years.
• 54:24
  I think during COVID is when they really took off.
• 54:27
  And again, not that we're trying to create the Renaissance fair, but I think a lot of people trying to inspire others to think about beauty.
• 54:37
  And it's becoming clear.
• 54:38
  My wife, for example, she went out and she found a bunch of I think she found like 200 architectural digest from the 80s and early 90s that we have on the bookshelf.
• 54:49
  And we've just been thumbing through those for the last couple of weeks.
• 54:54
  And it's insane how some of these design principles are eternal and lindy.
• 55:02
  It's just a few simple things that you need to do for a room or a building or a street, whatever it may be, that can make it beautiful.
• 55:09
  It's not like we're trying to develop new physics here.
• 55:12
  These are learned practices that have been around for millennia that we just have temporarily lost in our modernity.
• 55:25
  I would say that we should basically try to balance these two things.
• 55:29
  Basically, I'm against sort of like this sort of like, I don't know if you know this style, sort of like Saha Hadid, sort of like parametricist that is sort of like very alien.
• 55:38
  I really like the ambition of trying to make buildings that have never been before, but I don't like the idea of like rejecting objective theory and sort of like these eternal values.
• 55:49
  Now, I'm also against like the traditionalists.
• 55:52
  I like I don't make friends on any side because the traditionalists is sort of like, which is going to like, you know, no new physics.
• 56:00
  You know what? Actually, Marty, I do want to discover new physics.
• 56:03
  That would be insane. We should discover new physics.
• 56:06
  and
• 56:08
  on the modernist
• 56:11
  sort of like buildings
• 56:12
  I think I like the fact that
• 56:15
  we should be making
• 56:16
  affordable buildings that are cheap
• 56:19
  like entry level
• 56:21
  for people that are not rich
• 56:22
  I don't want to use the word cheap
• 56:24
  but they're ugly
• 56:27
  and the buildings that are
• 56:29
  ugly should be torn down
• 56:30
  so
• 56:33
  I'm a different kind of
• 56:35
  this is this is not yimby this is neo yimby at all all the ugly buildings will come down when we win
• 56:42
  marty they will all come down and we will build beautiful affordable buildings beautiful affordable
• 56:48
  buildings no but i i agree with you i want new physics too i want new designs but there is like
• 56:55
  to your point objective beauty is objective and you know it when you see it and yes we need to
• 57:01
  get back to that i cannot wait to tear down all the ugly buildings since there's a ton of them
• 57:06
  the future the future must look like the future yeah correct gentlemen this has been an absolute
• 57:12
  pleasure i mean it started with uh exchanging food stamps for fentanyl and ended on a very
• 57:19
  high energy aesthetic stock here i know you got to run um what should we leave the freaks with
• 57:25
  That's what parting message is should we give the audience?
• 57:29
  Well, I'm sure we'll plug the socials, but I'm Pablo Antonio and most social media.
• 57:40
  Yeah, you should tune in into what the future should look like and what should we do about it.
• 57:48
  And just not just be a spectator.
• 57:51
  The future doesn't just unfold.
• 57:54
  Like it's driven by will and it is, it is, it's, it's in individuals.
• 58:02
  And there's like nothing, nothing else compares to that.
• 58:05
  And that's the only way out.
• 58:10
  Yeah, totally.
• 58:11
  I think the, the really,
• 58:16
  the big thing that we want to create is we want to get the civic ambition
• 58:20
  back. America used to have so much of this, by the way,
• 58:22
  a hundred years ago in States, like in Philly, in New York and all kinds of places in Cleveland.
• 58:27
  It's like, you know, it's not just like, oh, make things a little less bad. Like,
• 58:31
  you know, we actually like have the resources and those sort of like
• 58:34
  high energy people to like make it really great. And so it's got to be like, that has to be the bar.
• 58:43
  Yeah. We're going to write the little orange book.
• 58:46
  All right, gentlemen, I can't wait for the little orange book. And I agree.
• 58:50
  it's your civic duty to build a beautiful future go do it thanks so much for having us this was
• 58:57
  great thanks party thank you guys peace and love freaks okay thank you for listening to this episode
• 59:03
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• 59:09
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• 59:13
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• 59:26
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