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STA296: Collaboration Over Competition: 5 Strategies To Grow Your MSK Practice Without Burning Out · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
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Welcome to episode 296 of the STA Clinician Podcast, formerly known as the Sports
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Therapy Association Podcast.
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I'm your host Matt Phillips and as always this episode is being recorded live
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on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel and Facebook page at 8 o'clock UK time on a Tuesday.
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In this episode, entitled Collaboration Over Competition, Five Strategies to
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Grow Your MSK Practice Without Burning Out,
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I will be joined very shortly by my special guests, Andy Hosgood and Andrew
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McCauley, founders of The Unbound Project.
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But first, as always, a big thank you to my special guest from last week's episode
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295, entitled The New Generation Massage Therapist.
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Jamie Johnston joined me, founder of the Massage Therapist Development Centre,
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MTDC for short, and host of the fantastic The New Generation Massage Therapist podcast.
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For those of you who didn't have a chance to hear it, Jamie gave us a hugely
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honest, sincerely honest and valuable hour in which he discussed the evolving
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role of massage therapists, shifting
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from passive tissue work to evidence-informed biopsychosocial care.
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And in particular, he talked about how mental health must be a part of modern
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clinical practice including practical
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approaches for opening conversations spotting mental health concerns,
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building clinician resilience and details of the mental health first day courses that he runs
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details of which can all be found on his social media or at the website themtdc.com
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wholly recommend it fantastic educator
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and there was a nice segue from last week into tonight's episode where we're
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talking about the importance of communication with fellow therapists clinicians
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practitioners, just to share problems and find answers amongst your peers, as opposed to trying to.
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Avoid them like the plague, because they might steal your ideas.
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There's a really nice segue from last week into this one. So do check it out.
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Available as always on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel,
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if you want to watch Recording Live and all popular podcast apps.
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Right then, back to tonight's episode. Collaboration over competition.
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Five strategies to grow your MSK practice without burning out.
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Let's bring up my special guests, Andy Hosgood and Andrew McCauley,
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founders of the Unbound Project.
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Andrew McCauley, how are you? Good evening. Both just nodding for a second.
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True professionals on podcasts. You don't think that they did it for a living.
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Thanks for joining us, gentlemen. Nice to see you again. It's been too long, as always.
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For the benefit of podcast listeners, trying to work out who is who,
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Andy, you know, sick Lord Andy Hosgood, you're from Liverpool originally,
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which will help people identify you, based in the northwest of England.
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Is that correct? It is correct.
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Now I live in the Valley now. Expand on that a little bit. Yeah,
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now I live in the River Valley. Yeah.
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So what do you want to know, my background? That's fine. You said enough.
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They're really going to distinguish your voice now. I was just trying to get
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some of that dulcet tones of you out there. And yeah, that's fine. People are going to.
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There's probably loads of that in a minute. Don't worry if I can get a word in.
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That's fantastic. And Andrew McCauley. Cowley? Cooley?
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McCauley. I'm based in Cornwall, but as you can hear, originally from Ireland. Correct?
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And you can do Irish accents as well. We've established that quite quickly.
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Oh, no one can. No one can.
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Yeah. I'm from the west of Ireland, Sligo, but I live in Cornwall.
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I don't think I'd have asked you. I don't know. I might as well do it now.
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Those would be in my mind. What made you move? From Ireland?
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Yeah. Good question. I left when I was 17 to do sports science.
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Just come from a very big family.
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Love Ireland, but it was very claustrophobic and just wanted to experience.
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I've always liked English culture, music, sport.
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It's always been fashion, that kind of stuff. It always interested me.
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So I just wanted to experience a bit more of that Ireland's great but it was
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at that time in the 90s I just wanted to go and then begin to rave as well at
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the time so I went through Bolford and,
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got to Ben and I clubs if I'm going to be perfectly honest so yeah I went to
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Liverpool first or near Liverpool Chester went to uni there to do sports science and,
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then I ended up going back to Ireland but then came back for physio in London
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and I haven't been back since,
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so yeah Amazing what a story thanks for sharing it's alright I want to ask about
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the rave culture and everything but we'll leave that for another time.
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Right. So it's been incredibly, just doing the podcast, everything goes into
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perspective when you look at how long it's been. But it was a year and a half
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ago when you guys first came on to talk about collaboration over competition.
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It was January 2025 somehow. I don't know where that all went.
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And I particularly remember you guys saying that phrase because hand on heart,
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it was the first time I'd heard it. It was wonderful alliteration and it meant so much.
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And I think it led to, well, it led to me directing the STA conference and hands
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on hub thing in xmas which you andy jumped on board for that it's the whole
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the whole conference was based on that idea of collaboration over competition you two,
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in my world came up with it i had not read or heard it anyway before it's wonderful
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had a huge impact a lot of listeners as well so that somehow was a year and
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a half ago and also back then if you just want to listen to it listeners it's episode 225.
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And you are either in a process of launching or about to launch the unbound
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project so just bring a little visual up there for people who've joined us on
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youtube By the way, listeners, by the way, if you have joined us live,
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then feel free to jump in with questions.
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Obviously, don't let me ignore you if we've got questions for our guests.
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So I suppose what I'd like to ask first of all, it being 17 months,
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what were the goals of the Unbound project back then with regards to collaboration over competition?
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And do you think things have changed? Has the climate changed?
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Do you think, have you seen things change with regards to it amongst clinicians?
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Either of you may jump in there.
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Go on, Andy Husgood, go on. Okay, so there's a couple of parts to that.
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I think we've learned an awful lot in the 18 months, for sure.
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And surprisingly and unsurprisingly, which is two things happening at the same
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time, because when you come up with an idea, you think everyone thinks the same
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or it would be a great idea.
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But then obviously trying to get that message across in a very busy, very busy world,
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with busy clinicians busy being the biggest word here we'll probably mention
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it later in strategies is we found it really hard to get across how,
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the idea of that and also the individuality of everybody you know where they're
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at in their life and in their career and what they think and how we can get
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that message across to say that actually you could come together with other
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people who may not be at the
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same period of time in your career but you could join together and really learn from each other,
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and then also try and design.
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What would that look like and how would people get together, I think.
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So we've really worked hard on trying to, and we've definitely tested hypotheses
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that we have continued to do so.
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And I think 80 points on, we believe in the project so much, we're still doing it.
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Because, as I said to you before, we talk to loads of people about trying to
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get people to find clarity in their careers, enjoyments.
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Early to a point of, well, on our tagline, we have this clarity relief change.
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Because change is always difficult for people. So we wanted to kind of help
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people get over those problems.
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And we're both believers in coaching. I won't talk for Andy,
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but we're big believers in coaching approach.
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We've done a lot of work on that. So we know it can work. We know the evidence can work.
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We'll probably talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that we've gathered from our SCORA.
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Also, a scoping review that was done by Sam Dunn, who's part of our project
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as well. We could talk about that because that's a really unbelievable piece
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of work, really, to highlight the issues that we have in healthcare and develop in our own careers.
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So I guess I don't think anything has changed that we can identify in healthcare
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professionals as such. I think it's still very difficult for them.
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But what we've done is we're getting closer to trying to help them solve that problem together.
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Great answer. Thank you. Andy, you're sitting there nodding and thinking.
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Very comprehensive and articulate as always.
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I think one of the things additionally that we... I think some,
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like Andrew said, there's been quite a lot and Sam's done a great little scope
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and review piece, which I think, you know, is going to be really helpful for us.
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Shaping the next 18 months of what we're creating at the Unbound Project.
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I think one of the things that we found through our own research was a lot of people are very...
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Understand where they want to be. So they're quite clear sometimes of what they
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want their career to look like.
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And sometimes they're even quite clear of what those steps might be.
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But actually taking the action to do those steps seems to be one of the biggest
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barriers that we've found in the research piece that we found.
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So I think what that's led to us is leaning more into our curiosity about, okay so what is it that,
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that we can start then shaping to help people feel,
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or overcome whatever it is it's preventing them from taking action if it is
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self-belief is it is confidence if it is an environment or that they're in if it's,
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past experiences and that's I think what we are you know really really focusing on I think one of the,
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one of the things that stopped and pauses we We realized that we've had to delve
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a little deeper to try and really unpick,
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what's the behaviors.
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That's in the profession across the whole of healthcare, not just in the MSK
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world, but the whole of healthcare.
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And so I think the nice thing for us is that, like Andrew said,
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started off with, is we had a hypothesis that we knew these things existed.
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And I think what we're now doing is delving into the evidence behind the reasons why.
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And hopefully that then is going to allow us to create the solutions to support
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people to make those actions and hopefully make those changes and those behavioral
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changes and those behavioral shifts.
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That ultimately, which is our mission, is to just provide the environments for
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people to feel supported so they can have those conversations with other people
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so they can take action and change their lives or change their careers.
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You mentioned, thank you for that. It's really interesting that how you say
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you put the hypothesis out there.
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Now in that time, now you're starting to gain some evidence for it.
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And you mentioned the app, which I believe has given you some pretty good responses
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from people, telling you about how they feel.
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For people who haven't been to the app, we'll make sure it goes to the show
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notes. But the app historically was one for clinic owners. And you can still
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do that if you're a clinic owner.
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Sorry, Matt, you're probably thinking about the scorecard. Scorecard,
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yeah, sorry. There is an app for the community, which is where you can, yeah.
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But the address is still unbound.scoreapp.com. Yeah, it's all on there. It's all on there, yeah.
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So if you go to unbound.scoreapp.com, you can still fill it out.
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And it's a really good self-reflection.
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But talking off air, you mentioned that now, based on kind of what you've seen
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and discussed and reflected on, you're going to produce some other apps as well
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to cover kind of different areas rather than just clinic owners.
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Can you talk me a little bit through that?
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Yeah, sure. Thanks for that, Matt. So yeah, the one we created,
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I think, was very focused around, because it's the easiest one to create,
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was around people that have got an independent practice, they're working on their own.
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And it was, you know, because there's lots of evidence of that,
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there's lots of questions that we could ask. And so what that was certainly
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what we built our research on.
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I think as we've then exploded across the whole allied healthcare professional
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world, we've started to look into are people, is the environments that people work in?
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Suitable for behavioral change and one of the underpinnings of that is this
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concept of psychological safety so one of the things we've then looked at doing
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is so in the moment one of the some of the guys that are volunteering with us,
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you know based on what like andrew mentioned sam's research we're now creating
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and george who's also working on the project,
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we're going to be creating a scorecard around the the kind of the environment
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that you work in and i think it's important from about two aspects one if you're in an environment,
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is it an environment where you feel.
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I've got a question can I can I be heard and I'm do I matter and I'm allowed
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to talk the way I need to be spoken to,
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and then secondly if you are a leader or a business owner you create an environment
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where people feel that they can come and talk to you so I think what's really
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important about that concept is and I'm not saying anybody who is a leader in here is you know,
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create an environment where they're not doing that, but are they really aware?
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And I think what these questionnaires or score apps do is just bring self-awareness.
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They bring that things that we do or maybe have not thought about into our conscious
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awareness to make us stop and pause and think, actually, I think I'm doing a good job, but am I?
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And that's all we're trying to do is bring awareness into things and then open
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those conversations up to say, well, if there's improvements,
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what could those improvements look like?
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And then the third one, which is not going to be immediate, but is definitely
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in the future, is going to be looking at that barriers to career progression,
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which I know a lot, again, from feedback through the last 18 months,
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people are saying that, you know,
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what are those barriers to help them get their move?
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And again, within an allied health professional, looking at what they mean.
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So again, trying to delve into that a little bit more. So they are kind of some
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TBC, if that makes sense.
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Fantastic. Can I just mention, Matt, if that's okay.
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Just on that, so the research that Sam was an MSc student and he's got a lot
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of experience as a mature student, 10 years of marketing, so a very,
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very kind of clued in life experience guy and he jumped at the chance to try and do this review.
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He said, right, the research needs to be done. Now, we're talking 45 studies
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across mainly Europe, Australasia, but some in America, some in North America.
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So a lot of the studies that were involved in his scoping review that revealed
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10 common themes about why people, you know, why they get stuck,
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et cetera, which we might explore again into these strategies that people are maybe asking about.
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It's a really unbelievable piece of work with quite, you know.
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Obvious kind of outcomes in some ways from what he's found, but at the same
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time I don't, I think people need to be aware of this kind of information about
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large trusts across not only physios, but also across any kind of therapists, dieticians, etc.
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So it's a really, it's not like just somebody's just done a little Google review.
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This guy's done his master's research thesis on it.
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So it's a really great piece of work. That was just my first one,
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in case people were interested.
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And our score app is obviously people can fill in that out, which is obviously
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less, slightly less scientific, obviously.
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And then the second thing I think is just because Jimmy in the,
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well, it's his name, he just asked the question, what's the single biggest mindset
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shift needed to jump from full-time clinician to practice leader without burning out?
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Which is a great question. And it probably leads us to maybe talking about that
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first strategy that me and Andy were kind of both agree on this,
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you know? So this is something that we've collaborated on and thinking,
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what are the strategies? What's important?
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And I suppose we put this one first and it's hopefully going to help Jimmy out.
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And it sounds easy, but I think it's one of the hardest things to really do,
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which is define your version of success and have a complete clarity about what success means to you.
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Because moving from full-time clinician to practice leader is you can fall down
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a rabbit hole of chasing certain things if you don't know where that goal is
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and what you're going to be satisfied with.
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So making up your mind what success looks like now and what that would be in a period of time.
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And then if that changes, that's fine. But first of all, decide what success is.
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I don't know if Andy, you want to jump in on that as well, but I just want to
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answer Jimmy's point in case he wants to ask follow-up questions to this,
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because I think it's a big question.
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And I think I could Imagine if he's trying to expand and then become a manager
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from a clinician. I think that's a really good topic.
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And I would say identity.
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So I think, to follow on from Andrew's thing, I think, yeah,
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there's a 100% agree, I think you've got to define what success looks like for you,
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because I think we make decisions, don't we?
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We see John down the road at the clinic and go, oh, he looks like he's smashing
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it, I want to be like John, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to work really
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hard to look like John, and then when you get there, you go,
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actually, it's not what I want.
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I think it's really important to pause and do that and a lot of people might,
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you know and there's an assumption jimmy in here so a challenge if not but there's
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an assumption that you've gone you've been full-time a class and you think oh
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no what i'm going to do is i'm going to make the jump into becoming.
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So there's the challenge is an identity shift it's and i think that is the and
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i think that happens ever there's a thing called the leadership ladder,
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and it's you know So from you being responsible for one thing and then the responsibility changes.
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So I would say, you know, that is something of which it's discovering who you
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are and what skills you can take from one thing into another.
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I've always said I'd run a leadership module on a master's.
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And one of the things I've always turned around is the great thing with being
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a clinician, I think you've already got all the skills to be a fantastic leader.
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What you've also got to do is recognize that. so what are the skills that are
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transparent from what you are as a clinician and in leadership
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and we often do an exercise where we go right what's a great clinician and we
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write all the skills down great communicator
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you know all of those kind of great things you know a listener and then you
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go okay so what's a great leader,
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and actually when you start going oh actually it's the same things you know
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you don't just when you become a leader become more dictatorial and more aggressive,
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a bit like whereas, you know,
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again, it's the transferable skills, I would say, so it's recognising the identity
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shift in the skills you can transfer over.
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And Jimmy's come with a question that I was going to ask, actually.
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So thank you, Jimmy. You're reading my mind, which is kind of scary as well.
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But Jimmy's followed that up with, firstly, thanks for a great question, Jimmy. It's brilliant.
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And then he's followed it up with, I'll just bring it up on the screen.
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People like to read it as well.
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Jimmy says, thank you. I guess I follow up. Once a clinician defines that personal
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version of success, what's the hardest thing they usually have to say no to in order to achieve it?
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I would say it's a very personal,
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kind of question I don't think there is when you say what's the hardest thing
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to say no to it defines what you're trying to create aren't you if you're money driven,
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then you're probably not going to say no to anything and you're probably going
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to just accept everything, which is a downfall to that.
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Whereas if you're purpose-driven and value-driven, so what does the success
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look like? You want to be a purposeful, value-led business, then I would argue
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that creates boundaries, doesn't it?
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So you want people in your organization and clientele organizations that are
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going to sit within that.
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So you know you don't want somebody texting you on a sunday when you're trying
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to have time with your family.
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Or does that make sense so i think one of the things is you've got to really
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understand what it is that is important to you and then they're the things that
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you say no to if they're crossed,
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yeah i agree with that it's like you have to have it should make it easy for
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you to say easier to say no to something like sometimes decisions are are there's
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no way of avoiding that they may be difficult.
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But once you've set out that map and the rules for that map and you've agreed
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to it, now they may change, but at the time when they've set out,
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then that's why it's so important to be clear because it makes the no's easier.
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Do you know what I mean? So if you're going to sacrifice all the hours in the
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day and work really hard to set up this practice, but you've got a young family
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or something, for example, you've got to make sure that you're all right with that.
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And that's okay. Otherwise you're saying no to things and you're battling in
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your mind and maybe relationships start to break down because you're trying
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to push both boundaries. And that's when burnout starts to happen because you're
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not really clear about what you said you were going to do from the very beginning.
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So no should become easier rather than looking at what's the hardest thing.
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It's actually, it becomes easier when you do that.
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So just on that, what's made just come to mind is it's who you say no to becomes important.
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So do you say no to the client that wants to see you and sneak you in at the end of the session?
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Or do you say no to your mate that wants to go for a run? Or no to your kids
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that wants them to read my bedtime story? Or no to your wife that wants date
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night because you're working another hour late?
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So actually, if we reframe the question, who would you prefer to say no to?
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Is it the client that wants the extra thing or the patient that wants to push
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you along at all? Does that make sense?
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Or even if he's trying to move from if he's trying to move from a clinician
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to a leader or a clinician practice he's going to have to deal with staff so
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again it's there as well so what kind of a leader do you want to be so you know.
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Are you going to be empathic for them because again you can be a very dictator
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you know this is what you have to do these are the numbers you want to have
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to hit this is what I want to be and if that's the kind of clinician you want
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to be there's no judgment here that's the one you're going to do people either
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work for you they won't work for you,
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but you need to be happy with that when you go home at night that you're happy
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that you treated the staff like you said you were going to the very beginning,
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burnout happens when you get really really stressed about all these small decisions
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and it sits in there reeling around in your head at night if you make the decisions
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with the plan and you agree to that at the beginning and that was to match all the areas
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where you wanted to be happy or whatever that definition is then,
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again things should feel easier with you and obviously yeah it doesn't make it foolproof but,
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So many people don't sit down and decide that. And the other thing I'd like
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to make on, say, people who are maybe not in private practice,
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who might be in, say, for example,
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within a company, whether it's the NHS or whether it's private,
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they may all lay out, like, there's a career plan here for you.
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So, you know, you're going to go through this, this, and this and get to that.
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And in Sam's scoping review, he said that, you know, having a plan,
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a pathway is quite important for satisfaction. action.
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But actually, if it's not personally decided upon, it's actually we're back
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to the same problem again. So people fall into this kind of like, oh, that's what you do.
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Oh, I'm this, so therefore I do. And then the pathway is there.
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Still needs to be individual because that individual might spend two years in
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that role, not very happy creating a really poor culture or atmosphere around
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all the other clinicians there.
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So it has to come back again, no matter where you are. Some think you could
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be falling into jobs or falling into roles that, did you really decide that?
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Or are you just happy to get that first job and next thing you know,
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you're just there and you're following this pathway that you think everyone
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else is doing? So I think that's not an uncommon and understandable issue.
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And then it gets so far down the line that you're 10, 15 years in there and
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it's hard to change that.
24:27
Unless you have people around you that might support you in those difficult
24:31
scenarios. And that's why we try to, we understand how difficult it is for an individual.
24:36
We've talked to lots of people who own clinics by themselves and are the most
24:39
lonely people in the world.
24:40
Looking in, they look like the most successful people, but actually themselves,
24:44
they're stuck at the top. Don't know who to talk to, don't know who to trust,
24:47
don't know what to say about things.
24:49
And that's where the competition, you know, we go back to the title of this
24:52
talk is, you know, you end up, you know, you don't want it in case you look
24:56
vulnerable, in case you look stupid and all those natural things you will feel.
25:00
So again, it always comes back to, that's why we put clarity in our three buzzwords,
25:06
if you want to call them buzzwords, but it's so important.
25:10
Great answers. And you brought in nicely about the title. So I was going to ask you that.
25:13
So the first strategy just to summarize was what is success for you?
25:19
So personalize it, taking in a look at what your identity is and what your goals
25:23
are, because they may be very different than somebody else. So you're not going
25:26
to follow a ladder, like you said, it might not be the same ladder that your
25:29
company sets up for you. You need to make it personal, which was cool.
25:32
So I was going to, that's a brilliant first strategy. And I was going to ask,
25:36
I think you kind of answered already.
25:38
How can collaboration make you help you answer that question of what success
25:42
looks like for you instead of keeping it yourself? Who could you talk to to
25:45
help you talk that through and find out what your identity really is?
25:51
Okay. So I think there's two parts to this. I think there's a,
25:54
firstly, you have to have a conversation with yourself.
25:58
The thing, it always starts with self. And I think, you know,
26:02
you know, I, this is my livelihood. I spend my life working with founder business
26:07
owners, especially in the healthcare industry.
26:10
I've never had that conversation of five years in, and I ask them,
26:13
what are you looking to try and do? Who are you? What's your boundaries?
26:16
What's your identity? They go, I don't know. I've never asked that question.
26:19
So I think firstly, it is having that conversation with yourself.
26:24
And then there is obviously the people that are going to be supporting you,
26:28
in your personal network so that might be family and friends that might be because
26:32
I think also you've got to recognize if you're going to go into a business or
26:36
you're going to grow a business there's going to be an impact on everybody else,
26:40
so I always say it's a collaboration in your own personal space and I've always
26:44
said that I think that it's a collaboration in your personal space because there has to be to be,
26:49
if you are going to develop a business unfortunately there's going to be times
26:52
where you are going to have to sacrifice some of your own personal time for
26:56
things that unfortunately majority of time shouldn't come all the time and that's
27:00
where burnout occurs but there are times where your boundaries will be crossed,
27:05
and then one of the things again what we're trying to create is this peer-to-peer,
27:10
support because you know you have got paid mentors and coaches which are brilliant
27:15
obviously because that's my livelihood but what I'm saying is there are also,
27:20
you know communities like the one we're creating which are free where you've
27:25
got other people or like-minded people,
27:28
who have experienced things that again you can share what you've got and that
27:35
peer-to-peer kind of support can be really really helpful because you know,
27:40
they've experienced things they can share things that work with them and I think that to me,
27:45
again is very important so there's lots of different ways you've just got to start with self.
27:50
That's really cool. I'm glad you mentioned the community as well,
27:52
because I was going to mention that, that if people either go to unbound.scoreapp.com
27:58
or if they go to the website, then there's a link to the community.
28:01
And like you just said, that's a chance where people have already crossed,
28:05
kind of opened that door, which you might not have even known about or be scared
28:08
to enter where you are suddenly in a psychologically safe form where you can
28:12
talk to others and open up a little bit.
28:14
So that's the idea of the community. And that's all free, is it?
28:16
And people can come and go?
28:17
So it's offering, the other thing I will say, it is monitored.
28:22
So you mentioned there a psychologically safe space. You know,
28:26
there's four of us that moderate it.
28:28
And I know you're in there, Matt, as well, so I'm sure you would moderate if you saw any.
28:32
So, you know, the whole idea is that you can feel supported in that space.
28:37
It is moderated. It's just not an open forum where anyone can just say what they want to say.
28:42
You know, so that's the way we've created it. We've got two guys kind of working
28:46
all the time. I'm looking at moderating that to make sure that,
28:50
one, you will get responded to.
28:53
And in fact, we've just had a call today that if you join the community,
28:55
you'll even get a call from one of the moderators just to check in,
28:59
just to see how you are and what it is.
29:02
So you'll get a nice little welcome email just inviting you to kind of say,
29:06
you know, what is it you want from it and how we can help you.
29:08
And that kind of leads me on to as well a couple of things that have just jumped
29:11
into mind, which is, you know, trust is such an important thing,
29:15
what we're dealing with.
29:16
And what we've discovered again, no matter how we come from a good place,
29:20
we're, you know, not charging for things, trying to bring people together just
29:24
to have conversations, you know, not trying to create any kind of mega money-making business here.
29:30
We're like, right, you're going to get this and this. This is how you're going
29:32
to transfer your career. We've never set out to try and think that that's what
29:35
people need. We answered everything about the individual person.
29:39
And we discovered that, obviously, that's so difficult to do,
29:42
even online. You know, you were on webinars that we did. And even though there
29:46
were some really good conversations and some people were brave,
29:49
a big majority of people probably struggled to kind of share that.
29:53
So you're only going to get that face-to-face.
29:56
And we know that that's such an important part of this.
30:01
I sit with that as well, because about 10 years ago, and I don't know if you
30:03
guys were like this, and I think it's important, but you'd hear every second
30:07
podcast would be like, oh, I found a mentor.
30:09
I found a mentor, and then this mentor was amazing, and then I was brilliant.
30:12
And you're always a bit like, fuck, how did you find that mentor?
30:15
You know, I was always coming off going, I can't find any mentors around,
30:18
you know what I mean? I've looked for them. Where do I find these people,
30:21
you know? And that was so frustrating, because you keep hearing about this and people getting look.
30:26
So that was on our forefoot of our mind as well because we wanted actually not
30:30
just one mentor because mentors are good and sometimes you'll find somebody's
30:33
really on your wavelength but having 10 15 20 options,
30:39
with all different experiences at different times at different ages at different
30:43
career changes then suddenly you're in a group of people who are you know actually
30:47
this we you could be going over here see we're trying to create a big pool of of support And I think,
30:54
that's going to come with time and you're going to get,
30:56
we understand that this is a new idea.
30:59
It's going to take a while for people to trust it and have early adopters in,
31:03
this kind of trust side of things.
31:06
But it's so important and it undermines, or not undermines, it underlines all
31:11
the five things we're going to talk about, which is kind of moving into maybe
31:14
some of the other strategies that people might be interested.
31:17
And that's, I would say our second one that we looked at is what's your capacity
31:22
and this idea of being busy is productive because.
31:27
I've been physio 23 years, I work in the NHS, I work in private practice and
31:32
you know what, there's nothing quite like being busy, you know what I mean,
31:35
it just makes you feel good and it's addictive and addictive.
31:40
Learned the hard way that busy is not always productive, as most sane people
31:45
would understand that. But the industry drives busyness.
31:49
Being busy and that is success.
31:52
And you can be running around, max out. And I see so many clinicians going,
31:57
I have full hair today. I've barely been able to take any breaks.
32:01
No self-reflection. No development.
32:04
No questioning about where they're going. They might get to a certain point
32:07
and then actually think, you know what, I'm here and I haven't got time for that.
32:11
So people and that is a one-way ticket to burnout as well it's it comes from
32:16
have a clear path what does success look like and then where am i going to also spend time,
32:22
capacity to reflect now i'm saying that from somebody who's terrible at reflecting
32:27
and andy will you know who coached me that's one of the areas that i i'll struggle with a little bit,
32:33
and so it's definitely not me saying i've solved this but definitely that idea
32:37
of making time for yourself and actually questioning And I think when I have
32:40
meetings with Andy about the Unbound Project, that acts as a bit of reflection
32:44
on what I've been doing over the last few months.
32:46
And it's really, really helpful, like to the point where I can go on a conversation
32:51
with the group and be like feeling really uncomfortably stressed and then coming
32:54
away just feeling lighter just because you've shared that problem.
33:00
So I think capacity, what you've got time for and reflection is the second strategy
33:04
that I think would be really useful to keep on.
33:07
And I think just to put an exercise analogy in that, you know,
33:12
that's like never taking a rest day in your training.
33:16
So if you had a client and they came to you and they were injured,
33:21
they said, oh, I'm training for a marathon. So I'm running every single day
33:25
as hard as I can and pushing it really, really hard and then wondering why they're injured.
33:30
You know, you would probably suggest that's called overload.
33:33
So what you probably need to do is think about where you're going to recover
33:36
and where you're going to rest. because actually that's where you're at to the
33:40
magic happens in the recovery.
33:42
But if you use the same analogy for ourselves and our businesses and the way
33:45
we produce our practitioners, if we're always pushing, we're never stopping
33:50
to reflect. Actually, we don't have time to imprint our learning.
33:55
We don't actually have time to stop and think, is what we're doing actually
33:58
getting us to where we need to be?
34:01
So again, I would argue that one of the things I work with any of my clients is we,
34:07
that's a great thing from a coaching perspective you have a structured reflection
34:11
session don't you if that's once a week once a month and,
34:14
one of the things that we do with our clients and one of the things I would
34:17
challenge everyone to do is even if they're just taking it might be an hour it might be two luxury,
34:24
take half a day a month to just stop and think about right what is it we were trying to do,
34:31
and is what I'm doing actually helping us get there closer and.
34:36
You know, because actually what you'll find is sometimes, like Andrew said,
34:40
you're just on the go all the time and you come back and go,
34:43
actually, what I'm doing is not bringing me in any money or what I'm doing is
34:47
I've done 47,000 Instagram reels,
34:52
but I've realized I've actually got no followers.
34:54
So absolutely no one's looking at them, but I've wasted this amount of time
34:59
doing this and I could have been earning this amount of money.
35:02
Does that make sense? So actually, or you've just spent, I think there's a question
35:07
around investment in money.
35:09
I think Jimmy's just asked it again. You know, you know.
35:15
You could be spending loads and loads of time, effort, and energy,
35:18
which could be making you money, doing one thing that actually isn't going to bring you anything.
35:22
So I think it's really important. But that only comes from stopping,
35:26
doesn't it, and having that time to think.
35:28
And I would say that's probably just as important in any kind of career or business
35:34
or, you know. But I'm a self-reflected daily, so I'm the opposite of Andrew.
35:42
So maybe that half an hour a month, you say to stop and reflect,
35:46
but sometimes the best ways of reflecting is to have a sit down with somebody
35:50
else, even if they're just repeating what you're saying. So that's where collaboration
35:53
comes into again, I guess, just to have that conversation.
35:56
Yes. Absolutely, yeah.
35:59
Well, haven't you, and we've all probably seen, we're all clinicians,
36:02
and one of the things as a clinician, you've had a patient, a client in front
36:08
of you that starts talking, goes, I don't know why I've got this problem.
36:12
And then after they've started talking, 20 minutes in, they go,
36:16
really obvious, isn't it? And you go, yeah.
36:19
And you've not done anything, just giving them the space to them to articulate
36:26
it, to them hearing themselves, they're going, oh, I'm the problem here.
36:29
And they're like, okay, fine, now you know what we're going to do about it.
36:33
And that's where collaboration comes in a peer-to-peer work as well.
36:37
You know if you can create an environment where you just say it out loud to
36:40
somebody or type it as you're typing it out loud or typing out loud typing it out.
36:46
You'd be like oh actually i know what's going on here so i think i think that's
36:50
where collaboration is really helpful,
36:53
Amazing. Yeah, just because Jimmy's question. Let's bring it up,
36:58
Jimmy. Let's have you pass through. Let's have a look. Jimmy,
37:00
just reading it out for people listening to the podcast. Jimmy says, as a follow-up.
37:06
Yes, he says, yeah, it makes sense. A final on this.
37:09
How do you spot the difference between a smart investment in yourself and just
37:13
throwing money at burnout on investment?
37:17
So it just is a great one because if Jimmy was in the room and he asked me that
37:22
question, the straightaway I want to ask him to answer that question himself.
37:27
Because like Andy just said there, so I reckon, Jimmy, if you're sitting there,
37:33
for a good 10, 15 minutes, and just even from what we've just said,
37:36
for example, even if you give it a good shot,
37:40
maybe asking yourself, what would that look like?
37:43
I think that would be my first answer to that, which sounds a bit of a cop-out,
37:46
but I think it's an important role that coaching plays.
37:49
Like asking the question, the right questions at the right time.
37:53
Like, again, I'll just use my, my experience just to get out people.
37:56
So I get loads of ideas in my head. It's stuffed in there.
38:00
And I think they all might sound a little bit mental or, or,
38:03
you know, sorry, like, you know, like really confused or it's all these worries.
38:08
No one else has like the classic case that we all get.
38:12
And one thing when I've been coached is that I just get to say it all out like a lot and.
38:19
You know, before I did any of that kind of stuff, I don't know how much I would
38:23
have believed that that would work.
38:24
I think it's a bit like psychotherapy. You're just thinking,
38:26
how is me saying this going to help?
38:29
But it allows the other person to really just sit there and then just ask another
38:33
question to you, which is the most powerful thing.
38:38
And I don't think people, if they haven't experienced being coached,
38:40
you know, well, it's unbelievably unlocking.
38:43
And that's where the collaboration comes because you need to find the right coach for you.
38:47
So we want to create a community where you can find that right person,
38:51
ask those right questions to challenge you so that you feel comfortable to them
38:54
go, yeah, I don't mind saying that I think fucking green men live outside my house.
38:59
What do you think, Andy? And he says, OK, well, why do you think there's green
39:02
men outside your house? You know, whatever it might be, you just need that trust.
39:06
That's the psychological safety side of things, because we all think some stuff is crazy.
39:11
So the first thing was a smart investment in yourself and just throwing money at burnout.
39:16
Again, it drives you back again to the first two things we said Smart investment.
39:23
Will feel good Burnout will not feel good So it's the classic emotion Does this make me feel good?
39:29
Is this in line where I'm going? Or this does not make me feel good This is
39:33
not in line where I'm going And then you have your answer It's the classic Steve
39:37
Peters gym paradox Negative emotions Ask yourself, are you feeling negatively
39:42
about the situation and the way it is?
39:44
If so, you're being hijacked by your emotional brain and you need to ask better
39:48
questions and you need to move away from that. That would be my take on that.
39:52
Very cool. I like it. Well, look, it's 843. We've had success, identity.
39:58
We've had capacity. And within that, we've talked a lot about the advantages,
40:02
of collaboration, the sense of just talking with somebody in a psychologically safe space.
40:08
Somebody's going to listen to you and just repeat what you're saying so you can reflect.
40:12
Thank you, Jimmy, for your questions. What are we going to move on to?
40:13
What's next on the agenda, gentlemen? Penny's gone. It's so hard to stay silent
40:18
and listen to people. I know, bless her.
40:21
I was going to ignore Penny, just show how easy it is to ignore people.
40:26
Penny, thanks for coming along. We really enjoyed being here. Nice to see you, Penny.
40:29
Yeah, let's address that. It is hard, isn't it?
40:33
As a practitioner talking to a patient. But I think if we turn it around,
40:38
sometimes it is hard just to have conversations with ourselves.
40:42
I think the idea of reflection is I'm going to sit in out with a cup of tea
40:44
and really sort myself out.
40:46
And sometimes even, okay, I'm going to, this is dangerous. I don't recommend
40:49
everyone does it, but sometimes I find, and it might not work for everybody.
40:53
This is where sometimes, I don't want to say that out loud, talking to AI can actually help.
40:58
Because sometimes AI is filled with these sometimes such annoying algorithms,
41:02
where they really show this empathy and they repeat that to you,
41:05
they summarize. It's like they've been programmed to.
41:07
But sometimes just having a chat through some ideas with AI,
41:10
with Copilot or Gemini, some free version can really help you hear yourself,
41:15
because they throw the idea back at you. And then you go, no,
41:17
that's what I meant. That's what I said.
41:19
So if you can't find anybody, which you can, because you've got the Unbound
41:22
Project community now to join.
41:23
But if you can't, don't just sit there and have a conversation in your head,
41:26
because you can't hear yourself when you're talking in your head.
41:29
Your brain just kind of diffuses it all and changes things. You need to actually hear it out loud.
41:34
And sometimes you'll laugh at what you're saying and you realize they're not green at all.
41:36
They're of a shade of purple but whatever it is you'll change your idea but,
41:40
so penny i'm going to throw that back you and just think it is difficult to
41:43
be quiet listen to people but i think sometimes it's difficult to hear your
41:47
own thoughts unless someone repeats it back at you,
41:49
just put that out there can i give that to that matt so say for example someone
41:54
does say with the classic.
41:57
Let's say you're listening to this and you go, all right, I want to be part
42:01
of this collaboration and I'm going to collaborate with, it might not be yours,
42:04
it might just be with your own network that you've got and your friends and
42:08
colleagues you work with.
42:09
There is a big thing around advice.
42:13
So what I would challenge everyone to do is if you just need to rant and hear yourself,
42:21
tell somebody, I don't need you to comment, I don't need advice,
42:25
what would be really helpful to me at the moment, is if you could just hold
42:29
that space for me, I'm just going to talk at you.
42:32
And then at the end, if I do need you, would you just give me some feedback?
42:36
And vice versa. If someone is going to tell you something, my advice would always
42:41
be, what do you need me from me?
42:44
Do you need me to give you advice? But you just need me to listen because you're,
42:48
instead of the AI, you're doing the human version, you're just listening.
42:52
So allowing that person to just almost formulate the thinking as they're speaking
42:57
out loud and I think it's such a powerful,
43:00
tool if you are going to want to collaborate with your friends is asking them
43:05
either what do you need from me or telling them what you need from the other person,
43:09
and then rather than you're processing out loud and someone's trying to give
43:14
you oh you know what you should do, you know what you need to do and you're
43:17
like oh I'm more confused now than ever I,
43:21
just want to add that in because I see that so much that You know,
43:25
and again, it comes down to that thing, the panic.
43:27
Sometimes people just need to be heard.
43:30
So actually the superpower as a clinician, any clinician is just sit there and
43:34
go, right, what do you need from me? That's my opening question.
43:37
What do you need from me? And they go, oh, I just want to tell you. And they just talk.
43:41
And then you go, okay, cool. And sometimes by the end of it,
43:45
the solution's already there.
43:47
And then you get, or you can work. I think, yeah, sorry, Andy,
43:49
just to jump in it, because I teach this in my course as well about,
43:53
so teach a lot of clinicians trying to solve people's problems.
43:58
And so let's have some empathy for Penny, obviously from this side of things,
44:01
because we all suffer from it as being explanations to our current clinicians,
44:06
is that our job, we're taught in a certain way that we have to get information
44:10
from people and then we have to work out a problem, which is appealing to us
44:14
as well. You're problem solving.
44:17
And so everything is forced around finding things, putting them together
44:21
and there isn't really a great focus on the human when you're getting taught
44:25
that stuff because there's so much stuff to learn about the body and how it
44:28
interacts and we understand that pain is difficult and all those kind of things
44:32
and I think everyone accepts that,
44:34
but when the reality of it when you have somebody in front of you and you're
44:37
time starved and you're maybe stressed which is what the job entails often if you're a clinician,
44:42
is that you're trying to get that information so trying to stay silent for long
44:46
periods Is we're not trained to do that We're actually trained to try and solve quickly So
44:50
we are going Here this is how you do it Oh by the way we don't really have to
44:54
do it like this Or you could do it like this And some people will find it okay
44:57
But a lot of people will find it shit.
45:00
But no one's going to tell you your shit, by the way. They're just not going
45:02
to turn up. Or you work for a company that pays you anyway, regardless,
45:06
NHS, and you get paid anyway.
45:08
So now we just sit in this perpetual motion of we just divvy out this type of care.
45:13
So I have empathy for the, we're not trained to listen.
45:16
We're not trained to respect the benefits of it and the benefits of coaching.
45:21
And people sometimes say they don't need to go on coaching courses.
45:23
And I'm grand with that if you want to read around it.
45:26
But what really helped me is to get some structure over that thinking.
45:29
And so when I learned to be a coach or a health coach and sat down and really
45:33
listened to the theories behind it, pennies were just dropping.
45:37
Sorry, pennies were dropping.
45:40
And it was like only then for me, like, I don't think I could have read that in a book.
45:45
I had to be there with 20 other people feeling a little bit awkward.
45:48
But then suddenly, I've never been on a coaching course or whatever type of
45:53
psychological communication course and knock on, that's fucking changed how
45:57
I'm going to be on Monday.
45:58
A lot more than any physical course I've ever been on.
46:01
Because it answers the questions that Jimmy's asking that are difficult.
46:06
It's like when patients don't want to make up their mind about having surgery
46:10
or treatment and they just fanny around in the middle and never make a decision.
46:13
So I often ask them, like, what are we doing here?
46:16
And so when there's difficult questions around what you want which are very
46:19
difficult and you can't answer them that's why you're struggling,
46:23
and that requires practice that might require you to get some training that
46:27
might require you to speak to somebody who has had some training or some gateway
46:31
into that so that you can then kind of just go actually there's power in this
46:35
because I just don't think until you've experienced it,
46:38
it's hard to believe sometimes that would be my opinion on this whole thing,
46:42
And additionally, there are coaching courses available in Garbo.
46:48
No, fuck off.
46:52
And it's for $99.99. No, no.
46:55
There will be links in the end of the podcast. If you want to learn about how
47:00
to deal with patients fanning about, also known as ambivalence,
47:04
but whichever course you want to do you choose, then we'll put those links in at the end.
47:08
Great. No, great information, guys. Really cool. And thanks to the question,
47:11
Penny. it opened up loads of debates so thank you very much and Jimmy's come
47:15
back saying thank you guys.
47:17
Right. Normally, I would continue
47:19
this conversation, but I want to get as close to five as possible.
47:21
We've had success. We've had identity. We've had capacity. We've had about how
47:26
to listen to other people because collaboration is a two-way thing.
47:29
Even if you're just sitting there and not talking to somebody and you're listening
47:32
to them, that's a form of collaboration, probably one of the most important
47:34
types. We've talked about that.
47:36
What else, guys, have you got to give us? I think we've put a lot on the thing.
47:41
So the five that we had was obviously understand your success,
47:45
think about your capacity, collaborate more and compare less.
47:48
So don't, you know, focus on self and make sure that you're working towards what you want to do.
47:54
Find people around you that you're comfortable being who you are and you want
47:58
to be and are people comfortable so that, and again, aren't going to judge you.
48:02
So creating those, I want to be this, Sam, I need to get there.
48:05
Can you help me and can we have to talk about it? Right.
48:08
So I think that collaboration, we've talked a lot about coaching,
48:12
coaching available courses about, you know, and be coachable.
48:16
So again, it's the, you know, the idea that you don't have to do this alone.
48:21
And that's, again, leaning into that collaboration piece of saying,
48:25
you know, if you are sat there alone and you think, you know,
48:27
I don't know this. And like people have been great in engaging and asking questions.
48:32
So now, you know, one of the things is we want, that's what the community we're building.
48:36
That if you have got something that's playing on your mind and you've journaled
48:40
and you've AI'd and you've talked to yourself and you've had conversations,
48:43
but you still want another point of view, we've created a community that you can drop that into.
48:48
And then again, it's just like Andrew was saying, it's another 360 viewpoint
48:53
of another, you know, 30, 40, 50 people, all that can may share their opinion that might be helpful.
49:00
Again, just to help you find your own clarity, you know because ultimately you know.
49:07
You know, point five is to protect the human. You know, and one of the big things
49:12
for me is that, you know, we are emotional beings, aren't we?
49:18
And I think one of the things as clinicians, we all go in and we are all affected
49:24
in the ways that we do stuff.
49:25
But actually, it's your journey, it's your adventure.
49:29
And I think you've got to make sure of that coming back to that kind of what
49:33
is the journey you're on, what does success look like for you?
49:37
So making sure that I think when you're going into it, taking what aligns with
49:43
you, what works for you, that's going to take you on your path rather than trying
49:47
to jump down somebody else's path. Does that make sense?
49:50
Definitely. I know. Excellent. Great advice.
49:56
Ultimately, then, I suppose, what you're trying to do is stay in this game that
50:00
you set out at the very beginning whenever you set off to be a clinician or
50:03
whatever you want to do or set up with practices.
50:05
Is it needs to be sustainable from the human perspective as well.
50:08
Like, you know, I would say that I, again, I want to just comment on how I am.
50:13
So hopefully it might be helpful, but it was really useful to,
50:16
once I started developing a network around me, to being able to hear people
50:20
who I would definitely look at.
50:22
Andy, for example, just in the room, it's really easy. It's just,
50:25
you look in and I'm thinking this guy's got, even after the first conversation, I think this guy's got,
50:31
you just go, it's going to be so much better than me.
50:34
You know, whatever. That was kind of like, oh, God, jeez, I'm way off this.
50:38
I'm way off this to that. Now, what Andy did better is actually,
50:41
you know, we had a conversation.
50:43
But my initial thought was, wow, this guy's really impressive.
50:45
And then I met another person, another person in a similar group of people.
50:48
And I set up a podcast, started interviewing people and just hearing all these people.
50:54
But what I also then flipped was their vulnerabilities that they would start talking about.
50:58
And their exact same shit that they would experience like I was experiencing.
51:02
And then I was like, I remember when I met Joe Gibson, who's a physiotherapist,
51:05
a very famous shoulder physiotherapist.
51:08
I've always mentioned her because she was the first person at that kind of stature,
51:13
who was the most humble and most kind of like, oh, do you think that was good?
51:17
And I thought she was taking a piss when she said that to me.
51:20
And I said, yeah, it was quality. Like she still didn't, you know,
51:23
she didn't, but even she still needed that, you know, support and say,
51:27
yeah, that was really good.
51:27
And that was useful and get the feedback. So it's so important that no matter
51:31
what level you're at or who you're seeing, they will struggle and they will be struggling at times.
51:37
And some people are very good at pretending they're not struggling.
51:40
But I have not met anyone in this industry, successful or whatever,
51:44
who aren't going shit sometimes and need somebody to meet up with.
51:49
And I think that's where burnout is high. And we've got the statistics on it are there.
51:54
People burn out. They don't have that.
51:56
So we have to do something about it Because it is getting more and more And
52:00
I think just You know we We're just so passionate about pushing this Like there's
52:05
times when we want to You know I'm not going to Maybe not speak for Andy But
52:08
I want to give up sometimes Because you're just like Is this going to work?
52:11
Like you know I don't think people get it I don't think people are You know
52:15
People aren't engaging as much As we thought they would But actually when you
52:18
keep having These conversations And you talk to people
52:21
It's so important You know So we can't emphasize How important it is to get
52:26
involved in communities or developing your own ones, you know, where you are, you know?
52:31
Yeah, I've got more to add to that.
52:35
I think, you know, I agree with, you know, what Andrew's saying.
52:38
I think it's finding those people in your circle that, one, you feel comfortable
52:44
to and that you trust that will hold that space without judgment, I think is massive.
52:52
You know, and it's funny, we've both got podcasts, Unlocking Human Potential
52:57
with Andy Osgood, if you're interested.
52:59
One of the things is, like Andrew was saying, we've interviewed elite clinicians,
53:07
business owners, CEOs, athletes,
53:10
and actually what underpins humans is we're all vulnerable, we all have self-doubt,
53:15
we all have self-belief issues.
53:17
They're just at different levels, or some people are better at hiding them or not discussing them.
53:23
And the great thing that we've been, you know, we're very open and honest,
53:27
but that comes from our own work that we've put in.
53:31
I won't obviously talk about Andrew, but I've done 20 years of personal development on me.
53:37
Through having therapy, through having conversations, through working on myself,
53:40
through doing reflective practice.
53:42
So I've become comfortable with who I am. So I'm very comfortable sharing my
53:47
vulnerabilities and my omesties and all those kind of things,
53:50
which means that in my world, I can create an environment where people then
53:54
can feel open and doing that.
53:56
And when you actually talk to some of these high performers that I've been very
53:59
fortunate to interview on the podcast, they've all got them.
54:02
They've all had to work through them. And I think that's the thing.
54:05
And what a lot of the time it's got to the point where they've just said,
54:09
I've said it out loud and I've gone, okay, actually, now I've said it out loud, I can do stuff about it.
54:15
And that's been one of the biggest strength things. And again,
54:18
bringing it all back around, that's where collaboration really comes together, isn't it?
54:21
I think it's good to bring up just on that one as well.
54:25
I think Gemma's always a good, Gemma Parry, who's a friend of me and Andy's.
54:28
And Gemma's story is really interesting. She shares this as well about she's
54:33
literally got, if you had a CD in my world of physiotherapy, she got it.
54:38
She has everything you'd want on a CV, from PhD to Olympics,
54:43
to professional sport, to private practice, to leadership roles,
54:47
research, you name it, she has done everything. It's like a CV from heaven,
54:50
Mike, you know, when it comes to that.
54:52
But she's the first to kind of even have conversations around.
54:55
That journey changed so much throughout.
54:58
So you set out to want something and then it was so reassuring to listen to
55:02
her to say that that may not be where you end up and don't it's so easy to kind
55:07
of go right I want to be in that position I never set out to be in private practice,
55:11
but that's where I've ended up,
55:13
half but I've always kind of had that idea that it's okay to change it's okay to maybe pivot but,
55:21
I only did that because somebody had a conversation with me who was doing a
55:23
private practice when I think about it sitting on a beach and just said well
55:26
you'd be really good at that I went oh god no no no no and I remember myself
55:30
I remember the beach it was on the beach today where I did And every time I
55:33
walk by that beach, I remember that conversation.
55:36
And it's just that it may not be where you set out it to be,
55:39
but always have that idea that, okay, this is what's going to make me feel comfortable now.
55:44
Aim for that. If it changes, be open to that.
55:47
But it's surround yourself with people who are going to support you during that
55:50
change period, because that's the hardest bit.
55:53
And then you'll come out the other side and feel a lot, lot better.
55:56
But doing it on your own is, I just don't see how that is. Very,
56:00
very few people I think can do it themselves.
56:02
And someone said something about a leader is, I think way back about born leaders.
56:07
I think I just wanted to make a comment on that as well just earlier born leaders
56:10
I don't know, I don't know about that I don't like to say to somebody is this
56:14
or that or born this way, I'm sure people are born with talent,
56:17
but if you read enough books on talent it's hard work and grit and determination and effort
56:22
and resilience that actually gets people success so we definitely have research
56:25
on that so leaders, there's probably people who lead in different ways and I
56:29
might lead you Andy and you Matt differently in a team you know, that's, you know,
56:34
I think you can develop that And so I don't think there's natural born leaders.
56:38
I think there's probably people who find it easier, but I think I'm terribly
56:42
starting to waffle here. But the idea is that it's the individual comes back
56:47
to the individual. And I think we're probably going to finish on that, really.
56:52
Nice one. Nice way. You ended on the first way. What first point we started,
56:56
which was, yeah, individual, your identity.
57:00
Right, gentlemen, I could listen to you for ages more. I mean,
57:02
there's so much we could talk about, but there's some very common themes there,
57:05
which hopefully this is a picking up on.
57:08
And as we said, I mean, all links will go into, I mean, I'm so biased,
57:12
but I mean, I've been, I'm part of the community.
57:14
I've spoken in the community and it's slowly becoming such a great place.
57:18
Every time someone joins, it's like the pee on a snow slope,
57:22
isn't it? It just ravels and ravels up and you've got more and more support
57:25
in there, more and more safety and people on the same page. So I do recommend,
57:30
people have a look at the links.
57:32
And we've all kind of said, or Andy and Andrew said that it doesn't come naturally
57:36
and it's fine for your finger to hover over that button and think oh sorry I'll
57:40
be all right just go to work the next day do your eight hours and then go home
57:44
kind of whinge a bit and then do another,
57:46
but think about it pop in have a little high in the community it's free.
57:51
And if you do see yeah like we said we you know we're going to start introducing
57:55
conversations just simple conversations what what's up what are you up to you
57:59
know how there's no pressure this isn't about trying to find out coach you on
58:03
day one or anything it's just try to get people to feel safe.
58:07
So, sorry, Matt. I just, you know what I mean? Because I think we're working
58:10
so hard on trying to help people feel that exactly what you just said, just hover over.
58:15
If I come in here, what's going to happen? Is people going to start asking me
58:18
questions? Is it going to be horrible? It's not going to be any of those things. It's the opposite.
58:22
The idea is to make people feel comfortable.
58:24
So, yeah, hopefully this is some of the stuff that we're going to start introducing.
58:27
We're trying to work this out as we go along.
58:30
And I think these steps to try and unlock that side of things will be starting to come out so yeah,
58:35
definitely and you'll be surprised if you join up and you regularly listen to
58:38
the podcast you'll recognize some of the names you'll suddenly think hold on
58:41
what why are they in there are they doing some presentation of course no they
58:43
just come along because they're human,
58:46
you know and you'll be able to have a conversation on a level playing field
58:48
there's no hierarchy there's no kind of,
58:51
pecking order it's just therapists who have come in to talk about you know what's
58:55
up and basically people either wanting to just be honest and share their feelings
59:00
and stuff because they know the power of it so yeah.
59:03
The link will be in the show notes. But as I said, you can go along to the website,
59:09
unbound-project.com, and you can read a load of information about it there, which is great.
59:13
And also on Instagram, I've written these down here, the.unbound.project, Instagram.
59:20
You've got on LinkedIn as well. And then you guys as well, you mentioned,
59:23
I wanted to ask you quickly before we end, Andy, unlock underscore with underscore
59:27
coaching. People can find your business stuff there.
59:29
And you do share some magnificent, I mean, such good shorts and videos of your
59:35
guests. And like you said, it's just two humans opening up and talking to each other. It's beautiful.
59:40
So I recommend people have a listen to that podcast.
59:42
And then Andrew as well, you've got your teacup going on, which stands for?
59:46
Therapeutic Conversations Unraveled.
59:50
Therapeutic Conversations Unraveled, which again is again a lovely podcast and
59:55
some tagging some great conversations in communication and for clinicians.
59:59
So we'll check that out as well.
1:00:01
And ProCare Sports, what do you got coming up, Andrew, in terms of,
1:00:03
oh, you're a therapy show, aren't you? You're both a therapy show.
1:00:06
Can't let you go without that. Are you okay for time? It's 9.04.
1:00:09
Yeah. Okay. I heard dog barking, hungry dog means something that rhymes with
1:00:13
dog. No, you're okay. Okay. It's fine.
1:00:14
Therapy show, I'm very excited. That's creeping up on us once again.
1:00:19
Therapy show, you're going to be there in November 25th. You're both speaking there.
1:00:24
And give us a little rundown on what's going to be happening there with you guys.
1:00:28
I'll do two things. Well, me and Andy are talking about kind of what we've just
1:00:31
been talking about to some degree.
1:00:33
So beyond clinical expertise and just trying to share maybe those face-to-face conversations.
1:00:39
So we want it to be a kind of more interactive session than we're not going
1:00:43
to be lecturing people here. We're going to try and engage with people.
1:00:46
And I think it will add a lot more than the online stuff for the things we've
1:00:50
mentioned earlier. So if someone's coming to the conference,
1:00:54
it's on the first day. So we thought it'd be really good time if you're there.
1:00:58
Sometimes you just sign up for a conference, CPD, you just think,
1:01:01
all right, I'll just go. It looks like there's loads of stuff going on here.
1:01:04
So we wanted to kind of get in there early and be like, right,
1:01:07
we'll set you out for, okay, actually, hopefully you'll walk away a little bit
1:01:10
more focused and thinking a little bit more about where you're going to go,
1:01:14
in that room and who you're going to see and maybe take a bit more of a tactful
1:01:18
look at why you're there and stuff like that.
1:01:21
So hopefully a bit of reflection so that they can make the most out of the show as well.
1:01:26
That's brilliant. It's 9.30, isn't it? So just to let people know,
1:01:28
in case you are going to the therapy show, it's on day one, 9.30 in the Business
1:01:32
and Practice Leadership Theater. You can see details on the therapy show website.
1:01:36
Yeah, sorry, I interrupted. And then later on that day, what have you got coming
1:01:40
up? Yeah, kind of some more physiotherapy stuff. So a lot of people have patients
1:01:43
who don't have equipment.
1:01:46
And my course is Unraveling Strength and Conditioning for therapists.
1:01:50
So mainly that's around behavior change, communication, getting people mostly
1:01:54
who don't like to do exercise and understand them more so that you can prescribe
1:01:58
better, but also to the people who do like exercise but don't like to stop.
1:02:01
So it's the psychology of exercise prescription is my course.
1:02:05
But this particular practical, which is very practical, is just,
1:02:09
it's pretty much 90% practical. There'll be a little bit of the principle of
1:02:13
progressive overload, which is really important in strength training.
1:02:16
And I'm going to be just teaching different ways to add progressive overload
1:02:20
when people don't have equipment at home.
1:02:22
So what kind of things and are you thinking about progressive overload or are
1:02:26
you just sending away people with exercises that are movement but not actually
1:02:29
going to cause any kind of strength or force changes.
1:02:32
So strength training for people who don't have kit if you're interested in that.
1:02:35
So it'll be a bit of crack.
1:02:37
It will be a crack. That is the word I was thinking in my head.
1:02:40
That's what it definitely will. And there's always going to be a slide that
1:02:42
people are going to talk about.
1:02:43
Could be to be the tape measure. Could be to do anything it could be.
1:02:45
There'll be something in there which you'll walk away with.
1:02:47
There's a possibility of that. And carry around with you on day two.
1:02:50
Yeah, but that's 3.50 p.m. in the Clinical Skills Lab.
1:02:52
Strength training. And then we can have a beer afterwards. And we can have a
1:02:55
beer afterwards. Exactly.
1:02:57
Fantastic. That sounds like a fantastic day one already. I like the way you
1:03:01
said, yeah, 9.30 in the morning. Come along to that because it could fine-tune
1:03:04
the rest of your day. Yeah. give you a chance to reflect and think, who shall I go and see?
1:03:07
Because that's so important. The first one can really dictate your day, can't it?
1:03:11
And that's both of you, isn't it, the first one? You've got Andy along just to hold things for you.
1:03:15
Yeah. That'd be nice. That'd be really helpful.
1:03:18
He pads my forehead down. I get to use a clicker when he nods at me.
1:03:24
Oh, wonderful. Oh, you're good at that. I must admit you're very good at that.
1:03:26
He did that wonderfully in Exmouth for me. An Irishman and a scouser.
1:03:30
We might need a translator as well, potentially, over there,
1:03:33
just before anyone else throws that joke in.
1:03:36
No, I wasn't going to do that. Very inclusive, not at all.
1:03:40
And the good news is neither of those will be clashing with the Clinical Skills
1:03:44
Lab at 10.30am on day two, which will be a fantastic speaker.
1:03:47
I haven't put a slide up because that would be too much. But Matt Phillips,
1:03:50
host of the SGA Clition Podcast, will be talking on day two at 10.30am in the Clinical Skills Lab.
1:03:56
And that'll be in my own easy to understand voice. That'll be refreshing on
1:04:00
day two. If you want to come on to that, that'll be wonderful.
1:04:03
Right for all information go to their websites look at the show notes people
1:04:07
if you've enjoyed this podcast,
1:04:09
that you've got the scorecard if you want to unbound.scoreapp.com particularly
1:04:14
if you're a clinic owner of some form but yeah follow and look out for the other
1:04:18
apps that are going to be coming up soon.
1:04:21
All right. Thanks again, guys. Wish you had longer, but that's it.
1:04:24
Andy Hosgood and Andrew McCauley of The Unbound Project. Thanks so much.
1:04:27
Next Tuesday, there won't be an episode because I'm on holiday with the family,
1:04:31
but we will be back the week after.
1:04:33
So we're talking Tuesday, August the 25th at eight o'clock UK time,
1:04:38
either on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel, or if not on Sports
1:04:44
Therapy Association Facebook page.
1:04:46
And if you have enjoyed this episode, then do please subscribe because it just
1:04:51
helps the good word of our guests appear their hire in google simple as that
1:04:55
if you want to do your bit for the industry i always say it but,
1:04:57
we get like 3 000 downloads and we get like i don't know 30 followers or 30
1:05:01
ratings what's that all about basically it means 2 500 and whatever of you are
1:05:06
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1:05:10
help your industry by leaving a rating and a review for our podcast there you go nag over,
1:05:14
so not next week week after until then as always take care of yourselves and
1:05:18
more importantly take care of each other we'll see you soon bye bye.