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Building Ocean Policy, Part 1 · The Salt Line

• speaker-0: The Salt Line is the place where we explore fresh ideas and salty opinions. You wanna know what I'm salty about today? Well, okay, a lot of things actually, but the one that we're going to discuss today in this episode is how the United States is creating ocean policy and then mucking about in that ocean policy. Now we could spend hours and hours discussing how the current administration is creating problems. And we will indeed touch on their special brand of slash and burn. But they didn't create the problem. They're just really good at exacerbating it. You might ask, why should we care about ocean policy? Well, because policy in its very basic form is a set of value statements that decision makers make about an issue. Or that their constituents care about. Policy is everywhere around us. It governs what we in society deem valuable and then prioritize. And since the ocean is vital to our very survival, it stands to reason that how we manage and protect it is also very important. While this is our first fully guest-centered episode. If you saw episode one, you will recognize our guest, Maggie Ostall. Maggie has been working in US ocean policy for 20 plus years, focusing on research, marine education, and policies around protected species and fisheries. In our conversation, we dive into the development and implementation of ocean policies. And as you might imagine, it is quite the topic. We had so much to talk about, in fact, and so much that we want to share with you that we have decided to break up the episode into two 20-ish plus minute parts so that you don't miss any of the salty details. So sit back and enjoy part one. With us today, we have Maggie Ostall, a marine conservation professional, to talk to us about wait for it, ocean policy. Dun da da. Maggie, you are an amazing first guest for the Salt Line podcast because you and I have both no pressure. No! Do you know why you're the most perfect person to have to start us off? Because you and I have been in it. speaker-1: That's true. speaker-0: Been doing ocean policy for a few years, which we talked about on our preview episode of the podcast. Yep. but we've been around to see how ocean policy has changed over the years. Yep. And we were both at Upwell, right? Yep. speaker-1: Yep. speaker-0: So, which was a great conference. I loved speaker-1: And speaker-0: Upwell specifically because I felt like we got a chance to hear from current and future leaders of ocean conservation policy. and I think that's exactly what we need right now because what we've had isn't exactly working. speaker-1: It hasn't been cutting it clearly. speaker-0: Yeah, clearly. And it's perhaps getting worse as the days go by. So my hope today is that you and I are just able to chat and let our viewers and listeners in on what's trending in ocean policy, whether it's good, bad, or ugly. speaker-1: Fair enough, yes. Although I d don't think anyone's ever put me in the same context as trendy, so speaker-0: There's a first time for everything. speaker-1: Right, that's right. No, this is great. I'm looking forward to this. I always love talking with you. speaker-0: same. Okay. So let's start off easy, right? Why is it important that we have ocean policy in the first place? speaker-1: On my on my main desktop, on my computer desktop, I have a graphic. I'm gonna describe it. I have a graphic that looks like a it's a it it it's a it's a chart showing showing the amount of it's not a pie chart, but it's like a spiral chart showing the amount the surface of of the earth and the amount of that that is water. and so like 78% of the surface of the earth is actually water. most of that is ocean. Right. There's also freshwater and lakes and rivers and streams. But I I deliberately put that on my desktop because I know that. A lot of people know that. But I think it's really helpful to be reminded of that, particularly because we humans are land mammals. We live on the land. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: But most of the land we live on, all of the land we live on is surrounded by ocean, which connects all of us. It's one big ocean. There's multiple basins, but it's one ocean. We're all connected by it. certainly, you know, I think most of us know, a lot of people know, I think more people need to know. And remember that we are an ocean planet, right? Like we can't go back and whoever officially named Earth as Earth, like, no, sorry, didn't get that one right. But it is a it should be planet ocean. And the ocean is really, you know, is affecting all of our lives, whether we, whether we know it or are conscious of it or not. Right. The ocean is integral in our atmospheric systems. you know, it has absorbed 90% of the excess emissions, greenhouse gas emissions that humans have generated since the industrial age. It, you know, gives us clean air, it helps, it helps regulate air. The ocean is integral in the water cycle, in clean air, in atmospheric cycles, in, you know, food provision, recreation, cultural importance, enjoyment of nature, you know. Shipping, commerce, other commerce, defense, you know, name something that isn't somehow relevant to the ocean because we live on an ocean planet. therefore, we need to regulate the ocean so that we can balance all of those sometimes competing uses and needs and importance and values and perspectives. And so I think ocean anarchy is not gonna help us. Right. Like we we need we need to figure out ways of balancing as much as possible and based on evidence, you know, how we interact with our ocean planet. So that's why we need ocean policy. speaker-0: I think that is an amazing answer. Thank you. I love how you set it out that we are all in some way connected to the ocean and that there are a lot of people that rely on it. There are a lot of there's a lot of wildlife that relies on it, that lives in it, lives adjacent to it. There's a lot of uses of the ocean and that in order to make sure that it isn't a hot mess, we have to have some sort of balance in how all those things interact, especially humans, right? We're a huge footprint in how we interact with the ocean space. speaker-1: say one thing for our species, we really have we have managed to impact every every part of this ocean planet. I mean, you know, like speaker-0: Yep. speaker-1: for good or for bad, like we we we are very impactful humans. speaker-0: Yes. So let's let's shift a little bit to broaden that or let's talk a little bit about what ocean policy looks like. What are our couple of important laws, right? So laws are a type of policy. speaker-1: They are. Yep. Laws, regulations. speaker-0: Yes, right. There's so many ways to create policy. speaker-1: Agreements. speaker-0: Yes, right. There's laws are one of them. They're one of the stronger ones. They're they're they're the kind that is probably the hardest to change. speaker-1: They take a while. Good ones take a while. Yeah. They need to be modified over time, usually. speaker-0: No. So what are a couple of those bedrock laws that we look to when we think of as strong indicators of ocean governance? speaker-1: I I agree with the framing there. So I think, some of the ones that probably listeners have heard about. I think there is when it comes we mentioned fish, right? So there is a law that is called the Magnuson Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act, abbreviated to MSA. Ocean Alphabet Soup here. The national National Fishery Act is really looking at, you know, how we balance sustainable use of of fish resources, fish and invertebrate resources, right? So how we catch and how we eat our fish, catch and eat our fish, but also keep them in the ocean. And ideally having like, you know, healthy populations of those of those species and the habitats that they rely on, right? So so management and conservation is really the the goal of the of the MSA, right? there is you know, there is, I would say that the Clean Air Act is relevant here because, you know, again it's it's looking at the air above the ocean. so I I wanna c I wanna keep that in mind. It's not just the the w the laws governing water, right? There's the Clean Water Act because, you know, the the ocean is downstream of the freshwater watershed. Some are of our watersheds, right? We all live in a watershed. and so the Clean the Clean Water Act is a bedrock US law that is that that matters for for ocean policy. And then, some of the specific species laws, right? I'm sort of in my head grouping. I missed one. spatially, I think there's again, sort of like thinking about the space some spatial management and and thinking that way, there's the Coastal Zone Management Act because, you know, again, we are land of mammals. We live on land, but that land is bordered by ocean somewhere. And so, you know, that coastal zone is really quite important. I also should mention here, we should we should mention here that just like in other countries, close to half of the a human population in the US lives near coastlines, right? In or near coastlines, right? So like I think it's around forty percent of all of the human population around the United States of America is is within, you know, a couple hundred miles of the coast, right? And so that matters because that means there's a density of people that all live in the coastal zone and so you need to think about ways that we're gonna govern that zone to be able to to make the best use of it for us and for the wildlife and habitats that we depend on and depend on the habitat. there's the National Marine Sanctuaries Act, which lays out how national marine sanctuaries can be established through a public process and and has led to the National Marine Sanctuary system. And then there is the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which is really one of that was one of the first laws that I learned about many, many years ago. it was really pretty when you think about it, pretty groundbreaking because, you know, back in the nineteen seventies, as well before that, as that as the law was being being developed, which is is kind of before our time. Ha ha speaker-0: Some time before. speaker-1: but as that law was being developed, I mean, you know, th as far as I'm aware, there was no other country that had said, look, we we need to not just go out and this is after there had been, you know, many countries were involved in whaling and and really depleting populations around the world of of great whales, right? Of cetaceans. The last law that I should mention, in addition to the Marine Mmal Protection Act, I was deliberately saving this one for laugh last is the Endangered Species Act or the ESA. I think, you know, that is that is really a fundamental bedrock law, because And it's really effective because it really set out to prevent the extinction of animals and plants from from you know human activity, intentional or unintentional. you know, and so I think that that is and that has really that has really spurred conservation of wildlife around the world. and has really, you know, it's a really important law because it really seeks to balance, you know, human activity with the existence of other species, the existence of biodiversity. So the Endangered Species Act or ESA is is a fundamental law for for for the plan for for our ocean planet. speaker-0: So those are all exactly what I would consider the bedrock environmental laws that somehow play into the ocean space. When you were listing those, what came to mind for me is when so w one, we're talking about federal laws, right? speaker-1: That's right. Yes. Very important distinction. Those are all US federal law. speaker-0: Yes, and which is important because, the US federal government has said we are claiming responsibility and management over two hundred nautical miles from the shoreline. Right. Around speaker-1: Interestingly, we haven't ratified the international treaty that, you know, kind of sets forth that that that structure. speaker-0: We're jerks. So this is like the federal footprint of how the federal government has said, okay, we're gonna claim that these are our waters. Yes. And we wanna protect things that are within those waters. Basically around the idea of how humans interact with either fish, right? How much fish we take, how much fish we leave, how many marine mammals we protect. How we're allowed to interact with them. Yep. How we protect endangered species, where we can put protected places. Right. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: And so these are all things that in, you know, basically the 70s, right, Congress was in this frame of mind of, God, there's all this stuff happening and speaker-1: There was a lot of pollution. There was a lot of pollution that was visible and evident and really people were experiencing it, I think. Right. speaker-0: Right. Yes, it was v it was exactly, it was visible. Their impact was something humans from the shoreline could see. Yes. speaker-1: Yeah. and humans far from the shoreline could see too in the con in this in the case of, smog, you know, pollution in the air and, you know, rivers on fire. I'm not joking, that happened. Right. And, you know, I mean like things that that were people were experiencing in their communities in the coastal zone but also throughout the country. Yeah. speaker-0: And then we get to like you and I could spend hours talking about speaker-1: Talking about just this this structure. Which is not perfect but is is definitely it it moved the needle and I would argue in a in a relatively positive way. speaker-0: Right. So we have this wave, right? And it and so these these laws all still exist. Yep. speaker-1: All in the books. speaker-0: But since then, speaker-1: Thanks then. speaker-0: there has not been another huge piece. speaker-1: There has not, no, not a federal legislation. speaker-0: So when we talk about laws, right, we have this framework. and then you have to have the ways to implement that framework. Right. You mentioned regulations, right? Which is a way for the agencies, which are part of the federal government. They sit under the executive branch, right? So the president directs these agencies to do things or to not do things. Correct. Yep. We have gotten to a place, correct me if I'm wrong, where speaker-1: Probably not. speaker-0: Ocean policy has over the last few several I take that back, several presidential administrations, has had this back and forth swing, like pendulum. speaker-1: I would agree with that, yes. I would say the implementation of ocean policy has really f federal ocean policy has swung with, you know, executive leadership and and using the the executive office to sort of direct the implementation of our bedrock laws and related ocean policy. speaker-0: Yes. And so to me that has led to a place where ocean policy tends to be fragile. speaker-1: I would I would agree with that, yeah. Yeah. And not as effective. There's a lot of people with lots of perspectives and you know o awareness or less awareness about ocean resources and management and all those things, right? I think there have been many, many, many attempts, you know, by organizations I work I've worked with, that you've worked with, that we continue to work with, that there are many, many people that are working in various ways to improve what I would call what what people call ocean literacy, right? I think that it's important to have ocean literacy. It's a literacy is important, full stop. I think it is specifically important to to build keep building ocean literacy and an understanding that, you know, the ocean is for all of us and it we all need to be aware of that. And we all need to hold our elected leaders accountable to us We use the term manage a lot, but it really is about stewarding this amazing life source that we all depend on, right? And and these leaders are accountable to us. And we need to remember that. And we need to we need to do a better job of holding them accountable to the fact that they are stewarding the this vital resource, the ocean and its biodiversity and the uses, you know, that we all rely on in some way, shape or form. to to continue to have a livable planet. and so it you know, I without being all like melodramatic, the reality is is that life on Earth depends on the ocean. Period. speaker-0: Period. speaker-1: The US we talk we've talked about the the sort of US Ocean Federal Ocean Area. The US has one of the largest, if not the largest, ocean area to steward wild. Right? And so not only do our leaders need to do that and report back to us the constituents, by extension, you know what the US does with our ocean policy very much impacts people in other countries around the world just by geography, just by size of of you know size and space of ocean ocean, you know, zones. speaker-0: Think about how think about how many other countries, right, that the US our borders touch. Exactly. And the wildlife speaker-1: Exactly. speaker-0: the wildlife in the ocean doesn't give a crap whether it's swimming through Mexican waters speaker-1: Look, cetaceans are very smart. There's some really smart animals in the ocean, but they do not they do not keep track of these biped human borders, right? Like come on. speaker-0: Because they're all arbitr they're all it's all arbitrary. Right. speaker-1: They're living their life. Right. They're living that let the fish live their life, right? Like speaker-0: They're just trying to swim their little hearts out and not be eaten by sharks and other things. And so I so I think that actually brings up a really good point around speaker-1: And sorry, can I just interject here? Also, all the lines on the maps right now, let's remember who drew those lines, right? Like speaker-0: Exactly where I was going. Right? speaker-1: My amount Those lines were drawn by people and most of those people were white men who were, you know, trying to be use the resources to get more money. Correct. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Oversimplifying, but I'm not entirely wrong. speaker-0: Yeah. looking at it from a property ownership landholder, landowning. speaker-1: Yes. Again with the terrestrial bias thing. Yeah. speaker-0: Right. And so we have this policy. We have these policies. We have these laws, regulations, we've got strategies, we've got you know, a agency initiatives, we've got all of these things and they were created by the US federal government. Yes. There's overlap with states and local jurisdictions, international jurisdictions. We started to talk about how right this This layer of policy is in fact developed through the values that the decision makers have at the time that they're putting these frameworks in place, right? And so at that time, the majority of decision makers were in fact white men. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of these laws and regulations and initiatives have that value that purpose in mind. Yep. I wonder if you could speak to what kind of structural problems that that creates or has created in some of our ocean policy. speaker-1: It's a really good question and I it duh yes, yes, it creates structural problems and I'm trying to think of a good example. But I think that, you know, while I'm while I'm racking my brain for some specific example, when you have federal decision makers that are mostly, you know, men of the of the then major majority. majority background. you white men are going to ha you it is it is set up in a w I mean I don't think we can avoid the it is set up to be a a white supremacist system. Yeah. You know, and that's not to say that every single person who was making the decisions back then was intentionally setting setting that out, but that they're we're all products of our system to some degree. Right. The heads of agencies doing the the the the directives out to out to offices, the, you know, lawmakers who are who are writing the actual laws are may in in a lot of cases, not may, in a lot of cases did not think through how do we make sure that that these laws from which there will be regulations and, you know, implementation and all the things, like how do we make sure that these really are this framework is set up To address the needs of everybody. speaker-0: Hm. speaker-1: The the diversity of constituents that they do represent. Right? Because those voices weren't at the lawmaking table, by and large. Yeah. b bedrock laws, we did not talk about the National Environmental Policy Act, which, you know, imperfect, but does really set out public process guidelines. you know, before that there wasn't as sort of at least the basic system of making sure that there had to be public process and comment and review. And then even when when NEPA National Environmental Policy Act was passed and began being implemented, it was interpreted, right? And so like there there at least there was public process, but it was not it was not as inclusive and equitable and, you know, involving of all of the voices that need to be at the table to make good decisions. Right. By dise by structure and process. Right. It wasn't a bad start. But We need to improve dramatically in some cases, improve the structure and process, along with making sure that the where we're applicable, that laws are written in such a way that they allow for the statute, the the law allows for and prioritizes the voices and perspectives and communities that it needs to prioritize. speaker-0: We're in a situation where we are trying to hold the line on these imperfect policies that we have now. For example, say the National Environmental Policy Act, which we just brought up, and it is in fact the law that requires the federal government to take into consideration voices and environmental impact before they make decisions that cost taxpayers money. speaker-1: That's right. And and to be clear, the the NEPA, National Environmental Policy Act, does not require it it does not require them to do anything once they've established environmental impact and gathering of public input. But it does require the gathering of public input and public input and the, you know, analysis of of environmental impacts, right? And so again, it's a it's a step, you know. I would argue that, we need to be thinking about perhaps in this day and age of of then requiring some prioritization based on public input and and analysis of environmental impor impact, But to your point, we are trying to make sure that there is still a public process as as currently required by law, so that people can at least have their say. And and and my opinion is that then the federal government should listen to that. but speaker-0: Yeah. Well, dear listeners, that is a wrap on part one of Maggie's episode on developing ocean policy. I hope we leave you with some great ideas and questions about how we can build andor rebuild good ocean policy out of our current framework. When we pick back up with Maggie, we'll dive right back into the deep end on what it will take to build or even rebuild ocean policy for the better. And I have to say, some of Maggie's takes are quite salty. So until then, stay salty, because you know I will. speaker-2: The Sotline is hosted by Sarah Winterwheelan, produced and edited by Matt Cardona at Coyote Studios. Our theme song is Out of My Head by Lettra. This episode was written by Sarah Winterwheelin. Thank you to our guests for taking the time to join the conversation, and to all of you for listening. If you'd like to support our efforts, please share our show with your community. It really makes a difference. This is a Healthy Ocean Coalition podcast. You can learn more and how to support by visiting HealthyOcean Coalition dot org or find us on most social media platforms.